Re-release: Tethered

This is the first of a three-part series exploring the messy, complicated years of early adulthood—when my sisters, Kate and Teresa, and I began to navigate the emotional weight of our mom’s mental illness and addiction in a new way.

We weren’t estranged yet. But the tether was fraying.

In this episode, we reflect on the years after leaving home—when we were starting careers, becoming parents, and building lives of our own. We were still trying to stay close to our mom through letters, phone calls, and hope. But we were also beginning to feel the cost of that closeness: the resentment, the confusion, and the exhaustion of trying to stay connected to someone whose pain kept spilling over.

We talk about what it meant to set boundaries before we really knew how, how our relationships were impacted, and how we slowly came to realize that love alone wasn’t enough to hold it all together.

This conversation is raw and real—and a reminder that sometimes the hardest part of growing up is learning how to stop breaking yourself to keep someone else whole.

Originally released:  May 20 2025

Host/Producer/Writer/Director: Jenn St John

Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
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Instagram: @jenn_stjohn
LinkedIn: Jenn St John

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Transcript

Ep 7 – Tethered

The Shadows We Cast

Hosted by:  Jenn St John

Guests: Kate Baker and Teresa Dunford

Contains discussions about mental health and addiction.

INTRODUCTION:

Before we begin, a quick note: This episode includes adult themes—like addiction, mental illness, trauma, and suicidal ideation. Please take care in choosing when and where to listen, especially if you're in a sensitive place or have little ones around.

I also want to gently remind you that I’m not a mental health professional. The conversations you hear on this podcast are grounded in lived experience—mine, and the stories generously shared by others. My reflections, questions, and opinions come from that place—not from clinical training.

Our goal here is to create connection, not to diagnose. This is a space for real stories, honest conversations, and the hope that in hearing them, you might feel a little less alone.

If you’ve been listening from the beginning, you know that the first three episodes of this podcast were a series of conversations between me and my sisters, Kate and Teresa, about what it was like growing up with a parent who lived with undiagnosed mental illness and addiction.

[CLIP #1 INSERT]

We talked about our childhoods, the chaos, the creativity, the trauma—and how we each coped in our own way.

[CLIP #2 INSERT]

That first series ended with a car accident—one that, at the time, felt like rock bottom for our mom. We hoped it would be the turning point.

[CLIP #3 INSERT]

But rock bottom doesn’t always lead to recovery. And in our early adulthood, we each began to feel the weight of what we’d been carrying—and the cost of staying close. This second series picks up in that chapter of our lives: when we started to pull away. Not because we stopped loving her—but because we were trying to start loving ourselves.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT:

Jennifer: So Kate and Therese and I are here again and, um, we're going to start this off as well

with reading some excerpts from the journals that I kept in that mom kept. Um, so I'm going to get into that right now.

Kate: Okay,

Jennifer: my journal, During this period of time, um, I found out about and joined Al Anon.

This has been the sole reason my dealings with my mom have been able to continue.

Kate: bye. 

Jennifer: the idea of emotional states and the thinking patterns that associates them with a part of being human and not solely belonging to [00:04:00] you. You are not angry, you are in a state of anger. Acknowledging that this feeling right now is anger is very important.

And then I picked this one of mom's. I have a horrible sense of loss for who I have been and where I have been. It is really difficult to give up the high flights of mood because of the necessary medications, even though the depressions that inevitably follow can be devastating. Manic depressive illness often contributes a great deal of energy, of fire, enthusiasm, and imagination to the people and the whole world around them.

Mania is a strange And driving force, a destroyer, a fire in the blood. Like everything else in my life, the Grimm was usually set off by the Grand and the Grand in turn would yet again be cancelled out by the Grimm. It is a loopy but intense life, marvelous, ghastly, dreadful, [00:05:00] indescribably difficult, gloriously and unexpectedly easy.

Complicated, great fun, and a no exit nightmare. The charade of pretending to be well when I wasn't, and going through the motions of being pleasant when I felt dreadful. So, we're going to be covering the period of time between ages of 18 for all of us, uh, to then, uh, when we all decided to set really strong boundaries, which came at different ages for us.

So, uh, Kate, I'll start with you. Um, how did just that kind of initial leaving the house and being away from mom and starting to have your own life? How did those excerpts resonate with you kind of during that period of time?

Kate: Um, resonate, um, with, you know, what you read about, about joining Al Anon. I never did, um, but we talked a lot about it, [00:06:00] uh, when you were, when you were participating in it and since that time. I would say a lot of anger. Absolutely. Um, so much so that I just distanced myself, um, and, and chose to just kind of, you know, start my life, um, with that estranged relationship, uh, with mom.

And there was a lot going on at that time for all of us. And I think it impacted all of our relationships, um, mine with yours, Jenna, mine with UT, um, because some of you, uh, Trace were still at home with mom. Um, and so it was very difficult for you and Jen. You were still kind of returning home because you were, you know, um, actually when I was 18, sorry, you would have been at home.

Right? Um, and so, uh, it was, it was hard and difficult, I would say, because I so much wanted to distance myself and move forward with my life. Yet I was drawn back because of you girls and wanting to keep that relationship going, but didn't want anything to do with mom because I was so full of anger and [00:07:00] rage and was not processing.

Setting. It's so well.

Jennifer: And then I think for, which we talked about towards the end of the last episode, but mom's accident, um, you know, when she broke her neck and was in study broke and then at home, um, I think that was, so for me, I would have been 20, well 19, 20, and Trace, that was your grade 12 year, so that was very much, I feel like, um, like, obviously I was desperate to get out, and I got out, and I went to school, um, and I, you know, would come home as much as I could to see Trace, um, and I can remember, I think at that time, the phone calls happening, you know, when she's been drinking, and it's like the moment you answer the phone, you can tell by the way she says hello to you, you know, okay, like, it's going to be one of those phone calls, or, [00:08:00] oh, it's actually going to be an okay phone call.

Um, And she actually, because she was doing a lot with WIT at that time, with the trades, I ended up seeing her more because there was, I think, one of the district offices or maybe even the provincial office was in London where I was going to school. And so, She would I would come down and see her while she was doing that.

This is all before the accident though So because as we were saying she was kind of in a bit of a high professionally You know when she was in the trades and doing things in the trades and she seemed to be there was a period of that But then I remember there being some big falling out around her involvement in that and and then that ended but I can remember the accident having a massive impact on my relationship with mom.

Um, and I think that [00:09:00] a lot of it was, um, like you're so in your life, like you said, Kate, you're like, you're like, okay, I just, I'm out. I'm trying to, you know, get going with my own life. And obviously we all went to school afterwards. So you're busy with that. Um, but I think the, the accident really threw me because.

I did feel like that was the worst, you know, everybody keeps saying, Oh, they just have to hit rock bottom. They just have to hit rock bottom. And I really thought this is rock bottom, like how on earth could anything else worse happen? This has got to be rock bottom. And so when it didn't, when it wasn't rock bottom and when, as she got healthy, you know, everything.

kicked up again. I was really affected by that, like really affected by that. And that is why I sought out Al Anon. I can remember because I graduated and um, my boyfriend at the time, now husband, we moved um, to Kitchener. Because, uh, he had already graduated and he was working [00:10:00] and so he was on a contract position at that point and I was so emotional.

Like, I was so emotional. I was going through a lot, obviously just having finished school and now it was kind of like a now what, but I feel like I held it together towards that last part of my last year when mom did have that accident. I just held it together to finish my program. And then once we moved and I wasn't in school anymore, it was like a release of a lot of emotions and a lot of just trying to figure out like, how on earth can I have her in my life?

What does that look like? Therese, how, how was that transition for you? You went to school as well. You were living with Kate, right? For the first year.

Teresa: Yeah, so, um, I forget if we already talked about, like, I wasn't staying with mom

Jennifer: Yeah.

Teresa: bit before the accident. So, yeah, the accident. And then was pretty sick with migraines this summer before I went to [00:11:00] school, had to stop working, uh, was back at the apartment with mom, um, um, Then I went and stayed with Kate, and I think what resonated of what you were talking about was, um, Like, I didn't understand a lot about addictions and mental health at that time.

I really didn't. I think that I was, I knew it, but I didn't really know a lot of the, I, I put it on mom. I was upset with mom. Like, I felt like it was choices and, I was really fixated on that. Um, and I, I really struggled with that. Like, when you talked about her podcast, or sorry, her journal entry, where it talks about kind of like, I'm this, but I'm this, and it feels like this, and it feels like this, like that's like, when I look back on so much of mom's existence, that's, that's [00:12:00] exactly it.

It's like she was all of these opposites at the same time. It was like having all of these polarized, big feelings. having to kind of pretend like things are okay. And at times not doing so well at pretending that things are okay. But it's just like, I've never read that journal entry of hers. And it really encapsulates for me exactly what it was like to be parented by her.

It Was like, you just know from minute to minute version you were going to get. And there could be very big extremes, you know, it was very much the mania. But then I also remembered all of those dips and those lows where you don't answer the door, you don't answer the phone, you don't talk to anyone.

You just, you know, it's dark the whole time for days and days and days. So. That's the part that I was just like, wow, like she really, she would never verbalize that to me, like she's never discussed those things with [00:13:00] me, but to hear her be journaling in such an articulate way, the dichotomy of this and this and this and this at the same time, like one can only, you know, you wish you had the maturity and the intellect. That you have now, then to appreciate and understand what was going on inside her body because I just think, wow, like that, that's a lot.

Jennifer: Yeah, and I feel like the phone calls, because I moved out West right away. So part of my coping mechanism, as I was, you know, in this state of, okay, I've graduated, I'm, you know, with. You know, somebody who I feel like is a long term partner. We both post graduated and, um, you know, kind of starting your professional life as an adult.

Having had this accident with mom, gone through all of this emotionally, um, and it was like, [00:14:00]you know, when this opportunity came up for us at that point to move out west and get employed right away, I jumped on it. Like, I was like, I'm out of here. And I think that was part of now. I didn't know I was going to end up being out there for seven years.

Like, I think at that point, we thought it would be a couple of years. Um, but I think that part of my part of me coping was, I mean, part of it was just, I was an adult and I wanted to experience things and get out there and work and, you know, travel, but it was also, okay, I need some distance because I don't know how to handle this right now.

Um, And so for me, we wrote letters, mom and I wrote letters for seven years. So there was a lot that was shared in the letters that you wouldn't have a conversation about, right? Because you're writing, you know, my mom was such a good writer. So if she was in a good place when she was writing that letter, she is very articulate and very descriptive.

And she could be very honest [00:15:00] with herself. Um, But it was the phone calls, as you said, that illustrated what you just talked about of she could be your biggest supporter. Like she loved us so much, like just getting emotional thinking about it, but it's like, you know, she could do the biggest thing to make you feel like you were the only person in the room.

And then at the same time, she could, like, say something that would feel like a dagger in your heart, right? Like, and that's what I feel like. You know, the tone of voice and the state that she was in, as soon as you picked up the phone and I heard it, I knew which version of her that, that, as you say, that dichotomy, that, like, yang yang, that, like, manic high low, which version of her were you going to get?

Now, I dealt with that over the phone 3, 000 kilometers away. You guys dealt with that in person still. [00:16:00] So, Kate, do you want to talk a bit about, I mean, obviously you were, you, you became a mom as well post her accident. So do you want to speak about, about that relationship at that time?

Kate: yeah. Again, I think I, I definitely distanced myself from mom. Like I was like, and I think at that point I was what you would call desensitized. Like, I just, I had no emotion. About, like, the accident. I was sad for her that it happened, like, you know, and, and, you know, I had a different perspective than you, Jen, that You know, unfortunately, I thought, well, this is, she's going to start drinking again at some point.

It's just a matter of when, like, that was my frame, uh, what am I trying to say? Um, the frame my mind was in, um, so I was just waiting for it to happen again. And so I think because I, you know, was six months pregnant when the accident happened and, you know, had some time to think I was really. You know, thinking about, like, I really don't want her in my life.

Like, I don't want my Children to be exposed to this. And [00:17:00] I want to protect my Children from this. Like, I don't want them to be exposed to, you know, even parts of what my life had been like with her. And so for me, um, it was really keeping her at an arm's length. I do remember, you know, that she did come, um, at some point after my first son was born. Um, and I still remember, I still vividly see that picture of how unhealthy she looked. Um, and it was, you know, after the halo had come off and, and, um, you know, she was, she was quite frail and thin at that time. And, and, uh, she had started. drinking again. Um, you know, it was very, very apparent. and it was just, it was that I guess it was numbing.

I guess I didn't feel anything. And I was just like, I just want to live my life. I just want to raise, you know, my children, have my family and just have nothing to do with her. You know, that's how I felt. know, in my mind, but then your heart, you know, pulls you. Um, and she was very good at doing that.

She was very good at laying the guilt trip on and making you feel guilty for [00:18:00] feeling that way. And whether it was in phone calls, whether it was in letters or whether it was in person, um, it was a, a teeter totter, it was an up and down, up and down, up and down. And, you know, that was the relationship at that time in my life with her, you know, um, and, you know, at that time I was also struggling as a new mom, you know, not working in my career at that time, you know, kind of trying to figure out what I wanted to do, um, starting to have relationship issues that, you know, came from the whole experience we had from childhood, right?

Like just not having that, um, Healthy exposure to a healthy relationship and trying to navigate this relationship with your, with your husband and a new child and a brand new home and just a lot going on. And you know, mom just piling on her stuff as well, right? Like it just seemed to be when you had a lot going on in your life was when she was so very needy and needed that time and attention and it was exhausting. I guess those are the best words to explain that part of time. That time for me was numbing and exhausting.[00:19:00]

Jennifer: Yeah, there was another excerpt that I was going to read, but it was about, um, me getting frustrated having gotten off the phone with her. And I call it her being stuck in the victim mode. And, you know, like you said, Kate, it was, there was always something. There's always something, some crisis, some whatever, but it was always through the lens of her being the victim.

Like she wasn't good at taking responsibility for any of her actions. She wasn't good for taking responsibility for her role in anything. And I think that is also part of the addiction personality, like, and the mental health side of things is that it's the world's out to get her. Right? Like there's no, and so I can remember that feeling all the time with her of it's, of it was just, it was always like, oh, whoa, is she right?

Like, she's just, just very much the victim.

Teresa: Well, and it's like

Kate: go ahead, T.

Teresa: go ahead. Okay. I was just going to say, like, the result of that for me [00:20:00] is like these pivotal moments that just to build for me a foundation of just feeling so unsettled, like, again, you know, like, there's lots of different examples, but like one, for example, um, I was in high school and, um, She gathered us around to tell us that I remember we were all standing in the kitchen and

Jennifer: Oh, is this when she had AIDS?

Teresa: Yes. And she told

Jennifer: Oh, Trace is frozen. Trace, just a sec. You froze. Do you want to just step back?

No, no, no. I don't mean physically. I

Teresa: oh, yeah,

Jennifer: mean,

Teresa: my internet

Jennifer: where you

Teresa: unstable

Jennifer: start from where you were. Oh, you're frozen again.

Teresa: just a second. I'm

Jennifer: Oh, I can hear, I can hear you though. It's okay. We just need the audio.

Teresa: Are you

Jennifer: Um, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Teresa: Okay.

Jennifer: okay. So just what you were starting to talk about. I can remember in high school when she said,

Teresa: So [00:21:00] my memory is of this time in high school when she

Jennifer: shit,

Teresa: us around. I can still vividly remember us all standing in the kitchen she was very emotional and. Yes. She shared with us that she had been in the city and that she had been raped and that person was HIV positive and she now had AIDS and she was dying. And that is one of many examples. I know we've talked before about, you know, when she told us that she had, um, like early, early on told us that she had cancer when that was not true. Um, I, you know, it's just these moments that kind of drew the attention and the focus on to mom. and we were devastated and like, what do you do with that when you're like, you know, 5. 19, like the cognitive constructs are not there and the emotional intelligence is [00:22:00] not there to appropriately process those things. So I feel like that created me just this just really unsettled, like that's the best word for how my inside being felt for so much of my life.

Kate: uh, you

Jennifer: Yeah. Because.

Kate: there is absolutely true because, you know, and it seemed to come at times when we were doing well or something was going well for us. So that story you talked about, about mom going into the city and the HIV positive, she told me at my bridal shower. So, so let's talk about

Jennifer: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kate: that the life was just sucked right out of that moment because there was always some, for lack of a better word, drama mom would bring forward, whether it was

Jennifer: Yeah.

Kate: drama, whether it was family drama, it was like, you know, okay, you've had your minute. Now it's about me. [00:23:00] And it was just, it would just suck the life right out of you. you're right. How do you

Jennifer: Yeah, and it was so attention seeking.

Kate: that? You're right. Okay.

Teresa: trying and I think this is over and when I say you guys mom was not included in that, um, but again, I was going through so much.

I had a toddler. I was. months pregnant. I had to now sell my house. I had to completely change my life. That was an extremely challenging time and I had shared that with mom and yet What she was going through still elevated itself Above what I was going through in such a way that I finally had to just [00:24:00] I couldn't do it I couldn't do what I needed to do for for me and my small family As well as hers.

And I had to put that, that boundary up. And that was so challenging, like so hard because like you said, Jen, like she loved us so much, like through all of this stuff and all of these really hard memories to think about. She loved us. She just didn't. Always know how to prioritize us, but she did love us.

So to have to put that boundary in place, like that's where I'm just like, thank goodness for sibling connections because I lost. I was lost, but I had no energy. to, to help her where she was at in her life.

Jennifer: Mm hmm. Well, and I. No, no, no, you go ahead, Kate.

Kate: moments where she wasn't able to give us that love and acceptance and support, We were that for each other, [00:25:00] right? Like even though I was the oldest, I was able to draw on that from you guys as well throughout our life and in the different moments where, you know, mom was not capable of, of expressing that or, or giving that.

And you're right. Many times she was, and the feeling was so amazing that we really miss that feeling when it wasn't there in those moments that we needed it. And I think we all did very well to step into that no matter who needed it at that moment. And that is what I'm truly grateful for, for our relationship.

Jennifer: Absolutely, Kate. Yeah,

Teresa: a victim of domestic violence. And it's interesting to me because mom being the feminist that she was and fighting for the cause and very much like not tolerant, like, taught us to not be tolerant of any kind of abuse or harm to ourselves. I didn't reach out to mom. I wasn't connected. Like, who got me through that? [00:26:00] I flew out, like Kate was my first call, then I flew out that summer. Jen, you, you and Murray. took me in for that summer to just kind of get me away from the situation. And then I came back and Kate helped me, went to trial with me.

Was that support? Like, and I think to myself, how interesting is that? That mom who was such a fierce advocate for domestic violence, like at different points in her life of, I mean, she was also a victim of that, but it's just so interesting to me now when I think about that of like, you know, mom really. In her later years, like really championed, you know, people getting out of domestic violence situations and there being supports and services for people in those situations. And yet it wasn't my go to, like, I just, even in my very young and naive reign, I was 17, I was 17 and I was away from, you know, mom, I was living with kids.

Kate and then I had moved out on my own with this guy [00:27:00] and she wasn't who I reached out to. You guys were who I reached out to. You guys are the ones that gave me the safety and the security and the support to get through that and to process through that while I was going to school. Like, Oh, got to go to class.

Oh, heading to trial. Like, you know, it's just that like, that was a lot. And yet how interesting that she's not.

Jennifer: well, she never, I think we learned very early on that she wasn't the person to lean on, right? And she didn't have the capacity to be there. And we knew who did, and it was each other. Right. I mean, it's, I mean, it's sad. It's unfortunate, but that is the way it, and I think that this period, like this early adulthood period is a lot of that trace of.

You don't, you have parents, but they're not, I mean, obviously dad was in and out of our lives. Like, like I tried to rebuild my relationship with dad when I was in college. And really from that point [00:28:00]on, this was after they had tried to get back together yet again, and we're not together. And I got his address out in Newfoundland and we started writing letters and.

Then the next time he came to Ontario, I remember he came and visited me in London where I was going to school. And so from that point on, um, you know, we had a relationship in adulthood. Um, but we really didn't feel like we had typical parents to lean on or to go to for Life stuff, and we already knew that from our childhood, but I feel like in our adulthood, like, as you said, Kate, I, during this whole period of time, the only thing I did kind of big life step wise is that obviously, like, I got married, but I didn't have children until I was in my 30s, you guys both had kids in your early 20s, so you were getting married, like you said, Kate, you were getting married, having children, buying houses, like, these are big life steps, right?

[00:29:00] And we're doing it all. Yeah. Yeah. On her own.

Kate: doing it to think it's going to fix everything, right? So for me, I was thinking, okay, I'm going to be okay once I get married and have my own home and have my own family and have my children. Um, and. Wow. Very naive of me to think that, that that was going to fix everything that I had been through as a, as a child, as a teenager, and was currently going through still with mom and, and what a mistake that was.

And we'll talk about it as we, you know, move into those stages, but thinking that that was all going to fix everything and make everything okay. And I think Trace and I had the same experience. Our, our first marriage has ended and I can speak for me that that's what it was about. I was expecting this marriage to fix everything and it didn't, and it shouldn't have.

That's, that was not the purpose of that marriage, but, but feeling that way, that this is going to wipe the slate clean and everything is going to be great, right? That's, that's what I experienced and what I felt.

Jennifer: Yeah, and I didn't, so it was interesting because, and Therese I'll have you [00:30:00] talk, speak to that as well. I saw getting married not nearly as big of a decision as having children.

So for me, like I waited to have children for a long time for that reason.

Teresa: Um,

Jennifer: for me, the, um, okay, like. I need to do something to try to fix things was moving out West, like was like, okay, I'm getting out of here, you know, kind of out of sight, out of mind, right?

Like, it's that whole, wherever you go, there you are. Obviously, it doesn't fix everything.

Kate: Silence.

Jennifer: Um, but I think that was my kind of, you know, life decision of, you know, okay. Okay. That was my reaction to that. Therese, what, how did you feel about like, did anything that Kate said resonate with you a bit?

Teresa: Yeah, well, I mean, like both of what you said, I, I too picked up and went out West. Um, I also don't [00:31:00] think I put a lot of weight into the decision, like for me, I feel like probably some of my coping in that stage of life was just. it was purposeful or not, just kind of this obliviousness, like, like it was there and yeah, we had a rough childhood, but like, just so for me, like, getting married was kind of like, you know, the, the freedom of the fact that I was out West now and, you know, doing my own thing, living on my own. Um, but it was just this, like, socially prescribed. Recipe, right? You go to school and then you get a job and then you meet someone and then you marry them and then you have kids and I mean, yeah, it was interesting. Dad did not play like so to you, Jen. Is that, you know, like beyond when? Mom and dad split one of the times, so I would have been like late elementary, maybe?

No, like early high [00:32:00] school. I would say early high school. I didn't have connection with dad for a long, long time. then When I was out west and got married, dad came to the wedding and that's where mom and dad reconnected. And, but again, lots of substance use, right? Like, I mean, it was not a healthy time. Maybe for either of them, but definitely not for mom. Like it wasn't her healthiest. But, so I was just kind of going through these things that are just like. I wasn't consciously like, Hey, if I do these things, I'll feel normal or it'll get rid of like the, you know, so, so a different mindset than you Kate, like I wasn't, but I didn't have that again, that maturity and that emotional intelligence to kind of like be putting a lot of consciousness into it.

It was kind of like, okay, I'm going to start my life and these are just the things that you do. You know,

Jennifer: Right. So it's like going through the motions kind of

Teresa: yeah, and maybe that was a coping thing, because I think that being the [00:33:00] youngest, was able to stay oblivious to a lot of the why things happened the way they did that kind of thing. Like, I went through the traumatic moments. Absolutely. And, and, and those are so challenging. They were challenging. They still are. It was, you know, it's challenging to think back about how you felt in those moments, but I think there was a certain, I, I, I've got to think that it was a way of coping because I want to say not only as a child, but still lots of my adulthood has been just tiptoeing through the daisies kind of, you know, just trying to like not, not Focus on that.

Not think about it. Just, you know, don't look back. Just look forward kind of thing. Um, and I, and I do think it is, you know, when, when you sit in introspect, I do think that it is a way in which I'm coping with just all these individual piece, you know, puzzle pieces of [00:34:00] lots of good times, but my goodness, way more challenging times.

Jennifer: And I can remember too, um, just going back to relationships. Cause obviously you guys were just speaking about your first marriages. Um, but I can remember how much those bad phone calls would affect me and, um, in turn, that would affect who I was around the people in my life. And obviously Murray was one of them.

And I can remember us, like, especially in Edmonton, like it was obviously he got to know everybody at this point, like we're years into the relationship, but it was. It was challenging for us because he could see what I was going through with trying to deal with this, but it was affecting my relationship with him when I was trying to deal with mom.

Um, and Obviously we [00:35:00] dealt with it, but I think it had a massive impact on who, like how I was, um, you know, how I went through the day or went through the week in trying to deal and process with the last phone call or the last letter, and like, just trying to not have it pull you down so far, but how can it not affect you?

Kate: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennifer: Did you guys

Kate: Yeah, I would

Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm

Kate: it was, you know. Sometimes in, in avoidance of what you were feeling and going through with that interaction with mom, you know, I would put it into my marriage, right? So something small that, you know, could have been talked out, you know, was, was fought about rather than communicated about, right?

And, and that's something I learned, you know, from watching mom and her relationships growing up, right? There never seemed to be communication, right? It was, it was silence. Or it was fighting. rarely did I see, you know, just a good [00:36:00] communication, you know, between her and her partner at the time and, you know, those are some of the

things I took into unknowingly, but took into the relationship, um, knew later on in life as I, you know, went through therapy myself and, and did some things, but definitely, you know, if I avoided, you know, having that conversation, With mom, because it always, you try to have that conversation with mom and there was no accepting of responsibility and it would make me more angry. And so I just stopped having those conversations and trying to have mom accept, you know, responsibility and apologize for, you know, whatever it is she might have done. Um, and I sought that apology for so long. Um, but then I finally just. you know, gave up on that. But what happened is all of that anger and resentment came into my relationship.

And whenever there was an opportunity to have a fight, I brought all of that into that fight, right? Just all of that energy and passion into that fight. And again, not fair [00:37:00] to my partner at the time, not fair to the marriage. Um, Now, I'm not only to blame for the dissolution of my marriage. It was a two way street, but I'm able to recognize kind of what I brought into that relationship.

And it was definitely those unhealthy coping mechanisms I learned by watching, um, growing up.

Jennifer: Yeah, and also, like, I would imagine some fight or flight instinct kicking in too, right?

Kate: what I was reflecting on that and I think it's, I would say maybe 10 years ago is when I stopped having a plan B. Right. And, and I've been with my,

Jennifer: Isn't that insane?

Kate: 20 years now, we're in our 20th year and I

Jennifer: Yes.

Kate: and have from the moment we, you know, started into this partnership, but that fight or flight was there.

I always had plan B, okay, this is what I'll do if this breaks down. This is where the boys and I will go. This is, you know, I, I've had that from the moment I entered into my first, you know, marriage, um, and partnerships after that. And then into my current marriage. [00:38:00] Um, and I would say maybe 10 years ago is when I finally. Has felt that I don't have to have that plan B. It took that long.

Jennifer: I know. It's unbelievable. Like I, for me, it was, I always felt like I had a foot out the door. Um, like, I mean, cause for me, Marie and I got married, but then I think about a year and a half or two years in, we separated for two years. I mean, At that point, we separated thinking the marriage was over, but we did end up getting back together.

Um, but I can remember. Very strongly having that, like, Oh, I can be out of here in a moment. Like, like I, like my plan B was, I always had a plan B. And I also, I don't know if you fail, if you had this correlation, um, Kate, but, um, That part of us, or that part of me having always having that plan B [00:39:00] also didn't allow me to fully trust and fully give myself to the relationship.

Kate: agree.

Jennifer: Like it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't until, and for me it was when I went to therapy close to 30. Um, That's when I started to put those pieces together and I kind of had that holy shit moment where I realized that They were they were tied together This sense of like I just and obviously it was a product of our environment We just I didn't know how to fully trust somebody and to fully think that they were going to be there Through the good times and the bad times and also just for me to fully open myself up and And let myself go and let myself really truly be in a relationship That I could I guess trust or that I felt like was gonna [00:40:00] be there Stand the test of time kind of thing.

Teresa: Well, we had such chaos, right? Like if you think about it, it was. Often us chasing the guy and we were there with them and then, you know, there'd be the midnight move where the, you know, pack a bag, we're leaving and then, and then maybe they get back together and then maybe they didn't. And then, you know, maybe they got back together 6 times and maybe no times.

And I, I can definitely relate because for me, took until early on in my. with Mark, where that would be my default as well, is that when we would have those hard discussions or disagreements, my go to was, I'm gone. And, and I remember a really pivotal time where, thankfully, he had the maturity to kind of sit down and say, is enough.

We've given each other. We've given ourselves to each other for life. [00:41:00] And that means that even when the going gets tough, we don't talk about what life is going to look like separating and parting. It is, we're in this, we're in this for the good, the bad, and the ugly, and somehow, someway, we will get through this.

And, and I refuse to continue have this dialogue between us when things get tough. And, sobering moment for me because, And you don't necessarily realize that that's your default is

Jennifer: hmm

Teresa: out of dodge, get out of dodge. And I think that for me, that like, that's what had been modeled, right?

Sometimes you make up again, but like you always just, you bounce and it took like concerted effort to try and change those constructs for me. I do think that I'm in a much better place now of. I would say that part of me is hopefully mostly healed in the sense that that's not my go to thought anymore. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that, [00:42:00] you know, sometimes that thought is still there in the background, because for how long was that modeled for

Jennifer: Yep.

Teresa: you can't help but default to those thought patterns. So, um,

Jennifer: Yeah, you get triggered.

Teresa: place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, definitely like a defining moment of like, Oh, we're not going to do life that way anymore.

Huh? What's this going to look

Jennifer: think we all very quickly knew this isn't right. Like, it wasn't like, like, it wasn't like we were like, oh, this is the way it should be, right? Like, we very much knew very early on, yeah, no, this is not the way it should be. So I think it also, It must have something to do with, I think also just our relationship and our bond to a parental figure who is also supposed to be something that they weren't.

And so I feel like, yeah, it's interesting. I definitely want to dive more into all of that, like, you know, with like mental health professionals. Because I, [00:43:00] don't think you can't get out of a situation like that without having your fight or flight instinct really high. Um, and I, and I think it has a massive impact on your adulthood until you're able to come.

back. To grips with it and process it as, you know, we all just talked about how he's texted all of us. Um, that, um, fair sense of independence as well, I think was in there too. And I think it's all kind of tied in with all of that. Right. Because I feel like it's all the same. thing. I think it triggers all the same things in us.

Like, you know, the moment, you know, like you said, Trace, even now having just a little bit in there, I'm sure it's a trigger moment, right? Like there's something that happens and it's, you're, you're so used to reacting a certain way. That's the reaction that comes up and out. And I think that that sense of independence, the strongest sense of independence is, is the same thing.

Like it, it jumps, it jumps on board and tells you, you can do it, right? Like it's, It's like, it's like the flight or flight instinct is [00:44:00] like, Oh yeah, we need to get out of here. And then your independence is like, we're doing this.

That's why I think that's, that's rather interesting. 

OUTRO:

What you just heard wasn’t yet the moment of estrangement. But it was the beginning of something quietly heartbreaking—the slow pulling away.

We were still showing up in our own ways—answering phone calls, writing letters, trying to hold space. But we were also starting to feel it… the exhaustion, the resentment, the weight of trying to stay close to someone whose pain was constantly spilling over onto us.

And even though we were adults now, and building our own lives, it was still so hard to make sense of the guilt, the love, the grief, and the boundaries we hadn’t yet learned to set. It’s complicated—because we loved her so deeply. And because we wanted so badly for her to be okay.

But love alone wasn’t enough to keep us from burning out. And in next week’s episode, we’ll talk about what happened when that distance became more than emotional. When we each made the painful, deeply personal decision to step back—for real.

We’ll explore what it meant to go quiet. To stop answering the phone. To choose space—not because we didn’t care, but because we couldn’t keep breaking ourselves to stay connected.

Thank you for being here—for listening with compassion, for staying with us through the uncomfortable parts, and for holding this space alongside us. It means more than you know.

Before we go, I want to invite you to join our #CreateCalmMentalHealth movement. This is a space for sharing the creative ways you care for your nervous system and create stillness in your day. Whether it’s journaling, walking, dancing, painting, or simply taking a deep breath—share it with us. Tag us using the hashtag #CreateCalmMentalHealth so we can build a collective library of tools that help us all come back to ourselves.

If something difficult came up while listening, you don’t have to sit with it alone.
In Canada, you can call or text 9-8-8 anytime for free, confidential mental health support. You can also reach out locally to the CMHA Simcoe County crisis line at 1-888-893-8333, or text 686868 to connect with a trained volunteer through the Crisis Text Line.

In the U.S., the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline is available 24/7 by call or text for anyone in emotional distress—not just those in crisis.

If this episode resonated with you, I’d love to hear from you. You can connect with us through the show notes, on social media, or by visiting our website at www.jennstjohn.ca. And if you’d like to support this podcast and help these conversations reach more people, please consider subscribing, sharing the episode, or leaving a review. It really does make a difference.

 Join us next week as I keep walking this early adulthood path with my sisters navigating the push and the pull of loving someone through the highs and lows of mental illness and addiction. And until then, take good care of yourself and each other.