Re-Release: Boundary

In this powerful follow-up to last week’s episode, we continue our sister series exploring early adulthood after growing up with a parent facing untreated mental illness and addiction. This chapter focuses on the emotional impact of setting boundaries with our mother—while becoming parents ourselves.

I’m joined by my sisters, Kate and Teresa, as we share personal stories of trauma, family estrangement, childhood emotional neglect, and the moment each of us realized we couldn’t protect our mother and protect our children at the same time. We talk about the ripple effects of living with someone who struggled with mental illness, substance use, and unresolved trauma—and how we each made the painful but necessary choice to break the cycle.

We also explore how those early experiences shaped our mental health journeys and led us into careers in social work, child protection, and community-based care. This conversation touches on trauma-informed parenting, mother-daughter boundaries, family systems, and healing from generational dysfunction.

It’s an honest, emotional, and ultimately empowering episode about reclaiming agency, redefining family, and choosing something healthier—one decision at a time.

Originally aired on May 27th, 2025. 

Host/Producer/Writer/Director: Jenn St John

Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
Follow along:
Instagram: @jenn_stjohn
LinkedIn: Jenn St John

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Transcript

Title:                                         Boundary

Show:                                       The Shadows We Cast

Host:                                         Jenn St John

Guests:                                    Kate Baker and Teresa Dunford

Length:                                    38:00:00

Episode No.:                            8

Content Warning:               This episode includes discussions of mental illness, addiction, childhood trauma, and emotional abuse. Please listen with care.

TRANSCRIPT BODY:

Jennifer St John  00:00

Hello and welcome to 'The Shadows We Cast' a podcast about what we carry, the impact we leave, and the messy, beautiful reality of mental health. I'm Jen st John, a writer, business owner and a mental health advocate who grew up in a family shaped by mental illness. Some of it was heartbreaking, some of it darkly funny, and all of it shaped who I am today. Here we're going to share honest conversations, stories from me, from you and from those who have walked this road in different ways. Through journal entries, letters from my mom and real conversations, we're going to pull back the layer on mental health, the tough parts, the moments that shaped us and how we move forward together. So grab a coffee, settle in and let's talk.

Jennifer St John  00:52

Before we begin. Just a quick note that this episode includes adult themes like addiction, mental illness and trauma. Please take care in choosing when and where to listen, especially if you're in a sensitive place or have little ones around. Also, I just want to gently remind you that I'm not a mental health professional. The conversations that you'll hear on this podcast are grounded in lived experience, mine and the story is generously shared by others. My reflections, questions and opinions come from that place, not from clinical training. Our goal here is to create connection, not to diagnose. This is a space for real stories, for honest conversations, and in the hope that hearing them you might feel a little less alone. So to get things started, I just wanted to read an excerpt from a letter that was sent by my dad to me in my early 20s. I was living at the time out in Western Canada, and we would write like eight or 10 page letters to each other, often to stay in touch, but also just to process life. I'm glad you are happy with yourself at this stage in your life, and I know that you've been through a lot over the years, and I wish I could have made a bigger difference in lessening some of the negative. Hopefully I can assist in some ways to make the future less negative for you and for your sisters, I realize that you all may have a different view of things, having your own personal memories of how your life was. I do not know what it will take for your mom to change her life around, especially regarding her drinking, etc, but for now, it is probably her only way to deal with her past demons and their effect on her present life. I wish there was a way to make it all better for her, if she could tackle life unencumbered. I don't think there's anything that could stand in her way. So in just a few short lines here, Dad captures something that many families touched by mental illness and addiction come to understand, and that's each of us carries our own truth and our own version of the story, and sometimes even love and good intentions aren't enough to stop the hurt from happening. This is part two of the second sister series where we continue the conversation about what it was like to navigate early adulthood while still trying to carry the weight of growing up with a parent who is struggling, struggling with untreated mental illness, with addiction, chaos, hope, heartbreak, all of it. In this episode, we talk about becoming parents ourselves, about when we each decided to set boundaries, and about that quiet but powerful moment when you realize I can't save them, but I can save myself, and maybe by doing that, I can save something for my kids too. It's honest, it's raw, but more than anything, it's full of love, adaptability and the complicated beauty of breaking generational patterns together. So let's get into it. I would imagine the decision to have children at an early age and then becoming a parent with everything we'd been through, choosing how or if or when to include her in your parent journey, those were all very big things that you had to wrestle with. Teresa, do you want to start speaking about the way that you were able to deal with all that?

Teresa  03:56

Yeah, I was still in bump along mode. Had a job, and so did my partner, and we got married, it was just the next thing to do was to have kids. So in that timeframe, we got married, and then we moved back to Ontario to be close to more family. You were still out west Gen, but it was a huge transition time in my life, change of job, change of location, all of that, and I was in a good place with mom. When I went back, I was in lots of communication with her. I lived near her and saw her frequently enough, I was able to focus on self and family for a while when I first came back, and for the first little bit of having Jade, my oldest daughter and mom really started to dip again as far as her mental health and her addictions go. I remember a fairly stalking incident when she had Jade for a weekend. I went to pick her up, and we met at the mall at Yorkdale, I know now post. Pandemic that we all are pretty desensitized to people wearing gloves and masks. This is before all of that. I showed up there in the food court of Yorkdale and mom has gloves and a mask on, and I'm like, Hey, so what's up? What's What are we doing here? There had been like, small indicators, like a lot of cleaning of the apartment and things like that, so a lot of hyper fixation on cleanliness. But we took the germ cart to a whole new level that day when she said, I have to touch this shopping cart. And then I'm around people, my little two and a half year old sponge at that point, who's also got a pair of gloves on, because grandma's got gloves on. I'm like, what is happening? Because, again, nobody was doing that, and I was scared, mortified, embarrassed and confused. I remember going to the parking lot and calling you guys. I was in the car with Jade, and going, you are never gonna believe what I just went through picture this, and so is a really big indicator. At first I was just, you know, on surface, like, Oh my goodness. But once I sat with it, I realized just how unwell she was. And those, for me, were the beginning times of seeing the OCD parts come out for her in regards to her mental health, and it was tricky. That was right around the time when I was then pregnant with my next child, and before I even had my next child, is when I had had to put that boundary in place. It was pretty challenging because it's this draw for my heart to want to be close to mom and spend time with her and have her play this pivotal role in my children's lives, and yet such a scary time because I knew she wasn't well and as an adult, it was probably the time where I was learning more about addictions and mental health being the career that I had chosen and the job that I was doing without even thinking about it, Starting to apply knowledge that I was learning to like, Oh, hey, maybe there's some correlations here, and there was definitely an effect. I didn't want to be parenting my children the way I was parented. I made a conscious effort. Stability and security was everything to me. I felt like I really disappointed myself by not being able to navigate through my first marriage in such a way that there was an impact on my children, and yet I knew it was the right thing to do. I can look back now and be very appreciative of how I did what I did, and why I did what I did. I did provide them with a life of stability and security, but there was definitely moments back then where I thought This is everything I didn't want it to be for them.

Jennifer St John  07:52

Yeah, yeah. Kate, how about you? I know you spoke to it already a little.

Kate  07:56

Yeah. Well, I think from the moment I had my first son, Brayden, and my second son, Carson, because I had such a difficult relationship with mom growing up and into even that point my life, as I was carrying each child, I was like, I really hope it's a boy. I just wasn't sure how I was going to have a healthy relationship with a daughter, and it was something I thought about the whole time I was pregnant with both and very grateful that I had boys, but also want to say, and we'll talk about this later in life, is that I have a stepdaughter that I have an amazing relationship with, and feel very grateful that I did have that experience. And I think it was at a time when I was better prepared. From the beginning, I lived quite a distance away from mom, so she wasn't as involved in my life as probably she was with T at that time of having Jade, I always kept her at an arm's length. I was very clear from the very beginning, if you're coming to see the boys, there's no drinking. She didn't like that, but I did set that boundary to the point where it was almost like supervised visits. She would come and stay within the house so I could oversee and watch and make sure that everything was okay and safe. I was very protective of the boys, very hyper vigilant. I wanted to protect them from not having any of the experiences I had as a child. Fast forward a little bit to my marriage breakdown, and it being over, mom again would come and visit, and sometimes she was with dad, sometimes she wasn't. If dad was around, I felt more safe. They would come to Westport and visit, and I would allow them to take them to fully mountain beach for the day, or those kinds of things. I can remember two incidents in the boys childhood that at this point I was like, I'm done, and didn't allow her to see the boys. They happened right around the same time. There was one where there was a crisis with my ex partner that needed my attention, and I needed the boys to be gone, and so Dad and Mom took both boys in Oshawa. I drove them up where they were living, and they took them for probably about a week so I could navigate this issue upon the boys returning. Braden was old enough to tell me things. And I soon learned two things. While mom was out walking with Brayden in Westport, a certain person drove by that mom has history with, and she proceeded to tell Braden a few things, and he's a child at the time, and so I know that he's not making this up, because he's all of maybe six years old. Braden also letting me know that during the time they were staying with mom and dad, my youngest, Carson, was a spirited child, and he was sometimes difficult to handle, and mom was hitting him. Both those incidents just set me into an orbit that I saw rage because I was abused by mom as a child with both a belt and any objects that were within range. So right away I was done and took the boys away from mom being able to see them. Yeah. Well, Mama Bear mode kicks in, yeah. Again, denial. Didn't do this. Didn't say that. Then I said, Well, what you're doing is essentially calling your grandson a liar, and a six year old doesn't know really how to lie about those things. He can't make that up. And he's not making up what happened to his brother right away. It was a you cannot see your grandchildren. I want nothing to do with you, so I cut ties for a very long time. 

Jennifer St John  11:12

Wow. Okay, yeah, setting boundaries is a big part of our lives, because I think what happens with a lot of people when they have somebody in their life who is either dealing with addictions or mental health, there's already so much conflict and chaos that some people can't even have the conversations about boundary, because they can't even handle that level of conflict. How do you think that you were able to easily? Maybe it wasn't easy. It just seems you were very naturally even earlier on with mom, like, Hey, these are the rules. 

Kate  11:43

I think it's born out of fear and out of lived experience. Our lived experience forms our frame of reference. And so in my mind, was already talking myself through as I had children. If mom does this, this is what I'm going to do. So I already had the script because I expected it to happen. And it's awful to say, but at this point in time mom was not taking care of her mental illness, and so I knew at some point in time I would have to have this conversation with her. Was it easy for me to do? Absolutely not, but I knew I had no other choice. I had to do this to protect my children, and that's what it was about. It was purely to protect them and to try and break that cycle trauma that we experienced by mom either sharing things with us she should never have shared with us, or experiencing her responses to her trauma and how she lived her life. I wanted it to stop at my children, and I didn't want them to be exposed to any of it. 

Jennifer St John  12:36

Yeah, I've had children later on, but I felt the same way. I can remember talking to Marie about it very much. By that point, I was like, I don't want my kids going to therapy because of their grandmother. I don't want them to experience what we did. Yeah, that was a big part of it for me too. 

Jennifer St John  12:57

Hey, just a little break here, if you're somebody who likes to scribble down things, or, let's be real, maybe sometimes just doodling the margins, this might be a good time to do that, like what's standing out for you, or what's hitting close to home. No pressure, but just a little invitation to process things in your own way. And when you're ready, we'll be here. Let's get back at it. 

Jennifer St John  13:23

Teresa, you didn't have the experience Kate had, but how did boundaries start to come into play for you? 

Teresa  13:29

It was probably that year leading up to me having Chloe, so I had already had Jade, and I was going through the demise of my relationship, where it was very tough for a while, until I then decided to end it. And that whole period of time, mom was very fixated on the abuse in her past from her childhood. We'd all known about it for a very long time, and had been very supportive as we could be through our different developmental stages, so I felt like we still continued to be supportive. That would have been around the time where Kate had put up her boundaries. So that was already in place by the time I was just really voicing to mom, I have a lot going on in my life. I was heading into a divorce with a young child, and late stage pregnancy for another child, having no idea what my existence is going to look like, it did not matter when I saw her, when I talked to her on the phone, when I got a letter or sent her a letter, there was no way for any interaction, for her to not be focused on what She was going through. She was just very focused on it, and it had to rise above anything that anybody else had going on in their life. There was no space for me. There wasn't space for what I was going through, and I couldn't be in a vacuum. Or there wasn't space for that, because I had to go through it. I was in it. So I remember it being. Extremely difficult. I think it helped for me that you guys had made similar decisions around that same time. But I just knew that it was going to take everything that I had to get through the scenario for the girls and I I couldn't do the mom stuff on top of it at that point, and it was the first time that I had really cut off contact. I had periods of time before where I had kind of created a bit of distance, but not like that level of disconnect. I don't even know that it felt better, to be honest with you, I now can look back and realize it was what needed to happen. I remember it feeling very united at messaging to her that what we wanted out of this was we want you to get help. We want you to get better. We want you to be involved in our lives, the lives of our children. It was really emotionally tough for me, because she'd been really close with Jade and dad had been around during that period of time. So it was that protective factor. I felt like we were doing the right thing, as hard as it was, because I remember the three of us saying it's wellness that we want for you. We want you to be in a better place. And I remember having discussions with you guys about if she's ever going to get the help, maybe this is what's going to be the catalyst for change for her, although it was not a popular decision by everyone, I strongly feel like we did the right thing, that the layering of it for each of us individually and how we did it actually contributed to the success of what we wanted, which was to force change for her.

Jennifer St John  16:41

Yeah I completely agree. We had tried so many times by this point, we had tried so many different ways, so many different discussions, angles of discussions, from such a young age, we were begging her to get help, and now we were adults and were more mature and wiser and with different stages of our lives, and we all felt there was no other option. Kate had done it a little bit earlier because of things that had happened with her boys, all of this stuff with mom and her family. This was all going on. It had all been percolating for so many years. It was raising for her, and she was just fixated on it. I was almost 30 so trees, you would have been like three, four years younger than that. Kate, you would have been a little bit older than that. And I feel it was just like enough. That was the first time that I stood up for myself in the relationship with mom. And it was a massive turning point for me, because I realized that if I didn't do this, I was going to go down. I was saving myself versus trying to save her. Think that a big part of addiction and mental health is people think that somehow we can save them. I hear it so many times, or if there's a situation that's gone really south, well, if only I had done this, or if only this person had done this, and I think that that was a really big turning point for me with her alcoholism, where I felt she has to solve this, there's nothing I can do. There is nothing we can say when she wants to get help, she's going to get help. You finally realize this could be the way she is for the rest of her life, because what if she doesn't get help? 

Jennifer St John  18:25

Okay, let's just take a moment if you need to pause here. Do it? Go refill that drink. Take a deep breath, in and out. Stare dramatically out the window, whatever works for you. We'll be right here when you're ready. 

Jennifer St John  18:42

Going into that phase. For me, it was at least a year, I think, where there was absolutely no communication.

Teresa  18:49

Kate's was the longest, Jen, then yours was and then mine, I think looking back now probably about six months or so, but again, through a very huge point in my life, the birth of Chloe, and she didn't participate in that, and I don't think she met her until she was one, one and a half months old. I've lived with a lot of guilt of denying both of them and myself. I guess the opportunity for mom to be involved in that, I agree with you. I think for our whole lives, we were a captive audience. For a month, we showed up for her in support from ages well before we should have been exposed to the varying information that she provided us. And so my frustration at that time, when I finally set that boundary and stopped connecting with her, was just, I can't be that audience for you right now, because I've just told you that I am about to divorce my then husband and raise this child and soon to be second child on my own, and yet, all you can talk about in that moment is your abuse and your needs and your relationship. With other people, and I felt like, How dare you. We have always shown up for you. None of us are denying you what your experience was, but you can't put that on the back burner for a hot minute to just allow me to be where I am and share with you. And I'm basically about to blow up my life here, but we still had to talk about what was in her moment, while not wanting to deny that for her, most of us have the ability to kind of shelve our stuff, to show up for other people, definitely a defining moment for me and my adulthood, that first time of saying, I've got to make a decision for me right now, which by extension, was for Jade and Chloe. But thankfully, you guys were those buffers. It's like going bowling and you have those airbags put in the lanes so you can't get a gutter ball. That was me. I was the bowling ball that kind of got to bump along, because you guys shouldered so much of it for me. Yeah, the odd time, I still hit that bumper pretty hard, but I never went into the gutter, because I had you guys for that. That was a very pivotal moment in my life. I felt strong enough to do it, and again, not a popular decision by everyone in our extended family, but I knew I needed to do it for Teresa, and that's probably one of the first things that I did for me. It's still not my default to think of Teresa first, but I think that was my first step. I would say.

Jennifer St John  21:30

Kate, how did it feel for you when you made that decision and you cut off the context? How did it affect your life?

Kate  21:36

Ummm, at first, it was relief. I'll be honest, I breathed for the first time, and it felt like forever. Then the other feelings and emotions come hard and fast, like the guilt of having to make that decision, and again, your mind knows it's the right decision to make, because my career path is mental health and addictions. So I knew, even though I was in it as a professional, I wasn't thinking of it that way. I was a daughter involved in this situation. I was a sister, I was a niece, I was a granddaughter. Even though my mind knew it was the right thing to do, the emotions my heart was feeling were pretty intense, to the point where not only was I dealing with mom's anger like rage, and how shall I say, extremely unkind, the letters I got, the phone calls I got, I wouldn't take the phone calls. I would delete the message without listening to it. I would not even open the letter and just trash it, because I knew it was just all of this anger. And not only was I dealing with that, Dad was always mom's supporter, so he was coming at me hard and fast, and her sisters, some of her sisters, not very happy with the decision I had made and the decisions we were making. I got better at saying, Well, you didn't live through what we lived through. You're not dealing with what we're dealing with. And at that time, I was better able to articulate and say, she is not going to get better if we don't force her to do so it's going to go one of two ways. She's either going to make the choice she wants her grandchildren and her children in her life, and she's going to take those steps, or she's going to choose not to, and then we have to decide what we're going to do in that scenario. I was very strong in that and I lost some friendships there for a while as well, because they were her sisters. So I get it, and I don't get it. Part of it, I'm also their niece, but sister bond is first and foremost before niece bond, and there's still probably some unresolved feelings around that, with some of our aunts reflecting back on it, I would do it all again, and I know we're going to talk about this in the next chapters of this journey, I strongly feel it was the best decision we made as a family. 

Jennifer St John  23:46

Yeah, and I feel Respect is earned, and loyalty shouldn't be blind. There was a lot of that going on, like reactions of other people around this situation, even dad, during this period of time when we were estranged from mom. I don't know how many times dad met trace and I at a Walmart here in Orillia. 

Teresa  24:04

That's what I was gonna say. Dad didn't play a huge role in my life. He came in and out a little bit, very briefly, here and there. For me, a lot of my life with mom was chasing the various short term men in her life. So I remember that, and I remember coming out of that so frustrated, because dad was so fiercely loyal to mom that How dare we do anything that caused her upset, and he could not seem to understand that we were coming from a place of goodness and wanting good outcomes for her. But he was so angry, viscerally angry at us, and we're sitting in this Walmart, McDonald's, trying to have a coffee, trying to find resolution, and although we knew he was coming from a good place, you could just never be real or honest. I felt like about what was going on in that relationship with mom, because you're not allowed to speak ill of her.

Jennifer St John  25:01

He didn't want to hear it. He didn't want to admit that it happened. He didn't want to have to go to a place of realizing that the woman he loved had hurt his children so much. Also, I think that we spoke about this a lot, but especially during this time as well. Like it just kept coming up, who had our back? Mother, yeah, we each had each other's backs. And that was it, dad at the end of the day, because of how much he loved mom, and the way kids attachment stuff was, it was blind loyalty towards mom, and so he didn't have our back and family when they were in situations where it was, again, that blind loyalty towards mom, it felt like they didn't have our back in all of these situations, the questions weren't being asked of I didn't feel anyways, they weren't asking what you went through, because clearly something massive must have happened for you to be in a situation where you're putting this kind of boundary up with your mother. Those weren't the conversations that were being had. It was the opposite. It was, how dare you. You're hurting your mother so much, and I can't believe you're doing this to her. And it was like, Really, what's shocking sometimes how people react to situations. A lot of what I've learned through this and everything we've gone through with Mom is that people create stories of ways that they can deal with the situation. When we were estranged from mom and we set that boundary that doesn't fit into their story, so they don't know how to handle the change, because it's like, no, no, no. That's not what's supposed to happen next. And they're clinging to this story because it's the only way that they can deal with the situation. And so if the story changes, they don't know how to change the story, because it's like, no, no, that's the only way that I can mentally and emotionally deal with this situation. So yeah, it's tricky. Yeah.

Jennifer St John  27:07

Hey, just a little break here. If you're somebody who likes to scribble down things, or, let's be real, maybe sometimes just doodle in the margins. This might be a good time to do that, like what's standing out for you, or what's hitting close to home, no pressure, but just a little invitation to process things in your own way, and when you're ready, we'll be here. Let's get back at it. 

Jennifer St John  27:33

The other thing that happened during this period of our lives is professionally, we all started to make decisions about what we wanted to do. And I think what happened with us, with mom, had a huge impact on all of our decisions. Kate, you want to start to tell us about the professional and the career decisions that you started to make and how you feel, or childhood impacted that. 

Kate  27:55

Yeah, absolutely. Let's start with figuring out what I wanted to do in college. I think maybe consciously didn't know so but did so make decisions to try and understand my childhood and what I'd been through. And so I chose a program called behavior sciences. It really spoke to me, and took that three year program, which really helped me to start to understand some of these things that we had been through. As people will joke, they commonly do when they take courses like this or programs like this, because there's psychology, there's sociology, and so I started to diagnose, kind of what was going on in our lives. And, you know, actually come to realize I was pretty close. I took that three year program, and it was a great program, and it allowed you to kind of go in different directions, and I did different placements, and I landed on really mental health and addictions. I started out in the school board doing that for close to 21 years. I started out dealing with really young children, but very quickly was working with teenagers with concurrent disorders, so mental illness and addiction to substances, whether it be drugs or alcohol, and really threw myself into it. Really wanted to help people. I think a part of that was because at the time I was doing this, I was still not able to help mom. This is at the point in time before we set up the boundaries and before we forced help. And so I think I threw all of that energy and emotion into my work, and I really loved my job, and to a point where I was just ready for a change. And so, for the last Oh, I think I'm at 12 years. Yeah, I'm at 12 years in February of being at the Royal Ottawa Hospital, which is a mental health center working with adults with mental health and addictions. And I really got to understand more about the supports and services out there. And I think that was really helpful in my journey with mom, and I continue to do the work. I'm very proud of some of the work that we've done, and I've I've done thinking about mom along the way. So we have a woman's Mental Health Program at the Royal that when I first took it over, it was minimal what we were doing, and now we're reaching like 1000s. 1000s of women daily in different facets of support and work, and I'm just really proud of that work, and I think a lot of it has to do with a tribute to mom and just in her journey and when she came and my wish that we as a family and she as an individual would have had this kind of support. I'm 53 now. So I mean, we started dealing with this when we were really young, so 45 years ago. That's my goal, and that's my my passion is to really do the best I can do to provide supports to not only individuals living with mental illness and addiction, but also their family members and their extended family and those kinds of supports. So I'm really proud of this project, Jen, that you're doing, and really proud to be a part of it. 

Jennifer St John  30:44

Wow, you're doing pretty amazing work. Kate. Teresa, I know it also impacted your decisions as well?

Teresa  30:52

Yeah, if I think back to last year of high school, I wanted to be just like you guys. So I was like, Yeah, behavioral sciences, absolutely. So threw my hat into that ring, but I was 37th on the waiting list. What the heck? So I was like, oh shit. Now what do I do? Had to get out of dodge. So I was ready. I was ready to be done. So I knew I was leaving and I had to get on some kind of train. And so I remember using the pay phone, because, again, this is before cell phones. I remember using the pay phone in the lobby of the high school and calling down to the school that Kate had gone to and said, Here's where I'm at. I'm at 37th on the wait list, and I'm not going to defer a year. I'm not coming back. I had done like a number of oases, but didn't, didn't want to stay for another gap year, so they said, Well, why don't you take something else in humanities, and by next year, you can do behavioral sciences and just roll those credits standing there, not looking at any kind of books or anything. I don't know how I didn't find my way to the guidance office, but anyways, there's me on a paid phone, and one of the things they said was corrections. I'm like, Well, I've always been fascinated by why people do what they do, so sure, let's try that. That's what I took first, was a corrections diploma, and that first year, I definitely thought that I would go the route of working with adults. But I think two things happened. I think one, I started to realize that I had lived so much of my life in fear that I didn't want to spend my adult life getting up every day, being fearful that I wouldn't come home at the end of the day. So that probably layered against I got some experiences much like Kate, with some placements with teens. And I just thought this is where it's at. I can do some good work with kiddos who have come from some adverse experiences. And I think I can do this. So when I came out to see you, Jen there in between first and second year, I sought out opportunities out west, and I landed on a secure treatment facility for children that had been experiencing a variety of protection concerns and mental health, like significant, serious mental health, placing themselves and others at risk. Didn't love the institutional setting, but recognized the need for these kiddos who were struggling, but knew that that was the route that I wanted to go. So when I decided to come back to Ontario to be closer to family, I ended up with Children's Aid Society, and although I didn't have a strong self worth and didn't think I deserved the job or what was the best candidate, they saw something in me that it took many years for me to see myself. So here I am, 23 years later, still, at the Children's Aid Society, working with many, many people through mental health and addictions and various other challenges in life. And I think fascination with just why people do what they do and how to get through adversity, one of my biggest catchphrases is that adversity breeds character. So we've got, like, capital C character in a lot of people in this world, and I am fortunate enough and very blessed to be on the journey with many, many families in our area who can see things through from a really rough time to a much better place. I meet the most incredible people, and I love, love, love my job.

Jennifer St John  34:18

Both of you guys, we talked about this in the last episode, but you can come away from these experiences many different ways. And I think we all came away from this experience with a really big heart and a lot of compassion and a lot of empathy. I think that it doesn't surprise me the direction that you guys have both gone in, and that plays a really big part of that we could have closed off, and we could have shut down, but we actually have all we're all trying to get back. We're all trying to pay it forward. We're trying to do something to help other people have a better experience than we had. 

Jennifer St John  34:53

I know that these stories aren't easy to tell or to hear, but they do matter, because for so many of us who grew up in the shadows of mental illness and addiction, the hardest part isn't just what happened. It's the silence that follows. It's the shame, and it's the confusion of trying to make sense of it all, when no one around you is talking about it, and when the people that you love are the same ones that hurt you, and you're still holding those pieces, unsure of what belongs to you and what never should have. That's what this conversation with my sisters is really about. It wasn't just a timeline of our 20s. It was a reckoning with motherhood, with grief, with guilt, and with the version of our mom that we hoped for, but also dealing with the one that we actually had. We talked about what it meant to set boundaries, not as punishment, but as protection, not as a way to shut someone out, but as a way to finally let ourselves in. It wasn't linear and it wasn't clean, but there are no perfect words or there are no perfect decisions. It's just real, and this was ours. If there's a takeaway from this episode, maybe it's this, sometimes the most courageous thing that we can do is to stop trying to save someone else and to start trying to save ourselves, not out of anger or resentment, but out of love, love for our own children, love for the people that we're becoming, and love for the life that we're trying to build that's no longer shaped by chaos, but by choice. Because healing isn't about erasing the past, it's about reclaiming your future, and it starts the moment that you say that this cycle ends with me. 

Jennifer St John  36:28

Before we go, I want to invite you to join our hashtag create call mental health movement. This is a space for sharing the creative ways that you care about your nervous system and that you create stillness in your day. So whether that's journaling or walking or dancing or painting, share it with us and tag us, and we're building a library of collective tools that can help everybody come back to themselves. If this episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can connect with us through the show notes on social media or by visiting our website at Jen st john.ca that's J E N, N, S, T, J, O, H n.ca, and if you'd like to support this podcast and help these conversations reach more people, please consider subscribing, sharing the episode or leaving a review. As you know, it really does make a difference. Now, if something difficult came up while listening, please know that there is help out there in Canada. You can call or text 988, anytime for free, confidential mental health support. You can also reach out locally to the CMHA chapters, and there's a crisis line in Simcoe County at one triple eight, 893, 8333 or you can text, 6868 68 to connect with a trained volunteer through the crisis. Text Line in the US, the 988, suicide in crisis. Lifeline is available 24/7 by call or text for anyone in emotional distress, not just in crisis. And for our listeners in Australia, you can call Lifeline at 13, 1114, anytime, day or night, for free and confidential crisis support. Please take care of yourselves and also of each other. Thank you for being here, for listening and for holding this space for stories like this. We'll be back next week with part three of this series, and until then, take care of yourselves and keep finding your way forward you.

Closing Note:   This transcript was created for accessibility and connection. Thanks for listening to The Shadows We Cast.