Known

Season 2 opens with a powerful conversation about connection, regulation, and breaking cycles.

In this episode of The Shadows We Cast, Jennifer St. John sits down with clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and renowned speaker Dr. Jody Carrington. Known for her bold, honest, and deeply human approach to mental health, Dr. Jody’s work focuses on one essential truth: we are wired for connection — and healing happens in relationships.

Together, Jennifer and Jody explore emotional regulation, empathy, and the long ripple effects of growing up in environments shaped by mental illness and addiction. Through Jennifer’s lived experience and Dr. Jody’s clinical insight, this conversation unpacks how trauma shapes our nervous systems, why empathy requires context, and how safe relationships can help us break intergenerational cycles.

In this episode we explore:

• emotional regulation and the “flipped lid” state
• intergenerational trauma and cycle breaking
• the power of empathy and the phrase “tell me more”
• addiction, connection, and healing
• simple ways to regulate your nervous system in everyday life

About Dr. Jody Carrington
Dr. Jody Carrington is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and founder of Carrington & Company. She speaks on hundreds of stages globally each year and hosts the popular podcast UNLONELY, where she continues her mission of helping people find their way back to authentic human connection.

Learn more about Dr. Jody:

Website: https://www.drjodycarrington.com

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/drjodycarrington

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-jody-carrington/

This episode includes discussion of addiction, mental illness, trauma, and suicidal ideation.

Host/Producer/Writer/Director: Jenn St John

Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
Follow along:
Instagram: @jenn_stjohn
LinkedIn: Jenn St John

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Subscribe, leave a review, or just send a little love—your support helps these conversations reach the people who need them most.

Transcript

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Podcast:  The Shadows We Cast

Season:  2

Episode: 1

Episode Title:  Known

[00:00:00] Jody Carrington: When we're talking about what we're up against of healing intergenerational trauma, or attempting to serve in this world of mental health, what we really need to understand is that it comes down to the neurophysiology. Your regulated system allows you to heal. If it is dysregulated and untrusting, it cannot move forward.

[00:00:23] Jody Carrington: And the thing that destroys a regulated system the most is a human. They're the scariest things that happen to us, and ironically, other humans are the only thing that will heal it.

[00:00:36] Jennifer: Hello and welcome to The Shadows. We cast a podcast about what we carry, the impact we leave, and the messy beautiful reality of mental health. I'm Jen St. John, a writer, business owner, and a mental health advocate who grew up in a family shaped by mental illness. Some of it was heartbreaking, some of it darkly funny, and all of it shaped who I am today.

[00:00:58] Jennifer: Here we're gonna share honest [00:01:00] conversations, stories from me, from you, and from those who have walked this road in different ways, through journal entries, letters from my mom, and real conversations. We're gonna pull back the layer on mental health, the tough parts, the moments that shaped us, and how we move forward together.

[00:01:16] Jennifer: So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's talk.

[00:01:27] Jennifer: Before we begin, a quick note. This episode includes adult themes like addiction, mental illness, trauma, and suicidal ideation. Please take care when choosing where and when to listen, especially if you're in a sensitive place or you have little ones around. I also want to gently remind you, uh, I am not a mental health professional.

[00:01:48] Jennifer: The conversations that you hear in this podcast are grounded in lived experience, mine, and the stories generously shared by others. My reflections, questions and opinions come from that place and not from clinical training. [00:02:00] Our goal here is to create connection, not to diagnose. This is a space for real stories, honest conversations, and a hope that in hearing them, you might feel a little less alone.

[00:02:11] Jennifer: Today I'm joined by Dr. Jody Carrington, a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and one of the boldest, funniest, and most compassionate voices you'll ever hear in the world of mental health. She has built a global platform helping people understand why we've become so disconnected and what it really takes to find our way back to each other.

[00:02:33] Jennifer: In this conversation, Jody and I talk about emotional regulation, empathy, breaking cycles, and the real power of connection. She brings incredible insight, but also so much humor and humanity Before we dive in. I wanna share something personal with you. A letter that my mom once wrote me when I was 13. I open every interview with a journal or a excerpt from a letter like this because these [00:03:00] pieces of writing remind me of where I've come from, and they set the stage for the conversations that we're about to have.

[00:03:05] Jennifer: They hold both memory and meaning, and my hope is out By sharing them, you'll feel the thread that connects our personal stories to the bigger themes that we're exploring here. This letter from my mom captures so much of what we'll be talking about today, and it's where I begin my conversation with Jodi.

[00:03:24] Jennifer: Hi hun. How are you doing? You both sound terrific on the phone and I'm really glad and thankful for that. Although my nose is a bit outta joint in that being away from home doesn't really bother you. I'm only being selfish I suppose. You sound so content and so in control and you're only 13, and I suppose it's because of the life that you've lived, that you are this way.

[00:03:43] Jennifer: I should be glad and proud and really I am, but I just miss you. That was a letter that my mom wrote me. We were living in the States at the time, so I didn't have the language for it then. But what I was learning was a lot about emotional regulation, 

[00:03:57] Jody Carrington: right? 

[00:03:57] Jennifer: How to read the room, how to feel the [00:04:00] unsaid things.

[00:04:00] Jennifer: Not because anybody had taught us, but because we simply had to figure it out just to feel safe and to stay connected. And that's why I'm so thankful for our guest today, Dr. Jody Carrington is a clinical psychologist, a bestselling author, and a fearless champion of authentic human connection. She's built a global platform helping people understand how we've become so disconnected and what it takes to find our way back to each other.

[00:04:24] Jennifer: Her work is rooted in the belief that who we are really does get buried sometimes under survival mode, but it's still there. And that burnout, trauma or loneliness sometimes get in that way. She's hilarious. She's bold, and she's wildly real, and it's exactly the kind of voice that we need in this conversation.

[00:04:42] Jennifer: So welcome, Jody. 

[00:04:43] Jody Carrington: Oh Jen, thank you so much for having me. Wow. How to start off? My gosh, that mama. When you, knowing what you know now and you read her words, what do you think that was like for her? 

[00:04:56] Jennifer: I think it was extremely painful for her. Yeah. I think for sure doing [00:05:00] the best you can with what you have rings through everything.

[00:05:04] Jennifer: Yeah. But sometimes the best you have is still hurtful or not enough. Or not enough. Yeah, 

[00:05:09] Jody Carrington: not enough. I say this quite often. I mean, I've assessed and treated thousands of people in our country and not one time have I met a bad one. 

[00:05:15] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:05:16] Jody Carrington: Including a bad mom. And people are doing the best they can with what they got on any given day, and sometimes it's not enough.

[00:05:23] Jody Carrington: And I think that's the hard part. We just, in spite of our own experiences, we cannot rise. And that's what I hear in those words is all of the things that she wishes she could do. 

[00:05:37] Jennifer: She loved us so fiercely. I mean, we felt that even in the Did 

[00:05:40] Jody Carrington: you? 

[00:05:41] Jennifer: Oh, for sure. We felt that. I mean it, you know, there's still lots to unpack.

[00:05:45] Jennifer: There's still lots you have to deal with, but there were so many times of loveliness and lots of love. It's just all the other stuff. It's hard to separate and it's hard to deal with, especially as a child. 

[00:05:57] Jody Carrington: Oh, and you do not have the capacity. That's [00:06:00] the issue. Right. I think sometimes the expectation of us being able to do that isn't because we can't, we don't have the resources.

[00:06:07] Jennifer: No, 

[00:06:07] Jody Carrington: we don't. Just a 

[00:06:08] Jennifer: survival mode when we were kids. 

[00:06:10] Jody Carrington: Yeah. 

[00:06:10] Jennifer: Like that's really all it was. 

[00:06:12] Jody Carrington: And a baby prefrontal cortex that needed big people to take charge. And when the big people are chaotic and unstable and don't have access to those things because nobody did it for them. Yeah, you can't give away something you've never received.

[00:06:25] Jennifer: I know that was in your book. I loved that. I loved that part. Okay, so your book Feeling seeing, really struck a chord with me because of my lived experience, especially around emotional regulation. It's actually something that I talk about a lot. Nice. Um, I believe in it. I teach you my children to deal with it, talk to my husband about it a lot.

[00:06:48] Jennifer: You talk about the state of being like the flipped lid state. I want to pause here for a second. Jodi's about to introduce what's called the hand model of the [00:07:00] brain concept, and if you're busy right now, you know, walking, driving, doing whatever, all good, you don't need to follow along perfectly, just picture it with her because it's such a powerful way to understand what happens in our brains when we quote unquote lose our cool and how we can find our way back from that.

[00:07:21] Jennifer: Can you share with us about being in that state? You have a very powerful metaphor for what it feels like. 

[00:07:28] Jody Carrington: So I think it's the most important thing I didn't learn soon enough in this world of psychology. I think that it is the single thing that changed the way I practice it is the single thing that makes me, I think, a better mom, a better wife, a better business partner, all of those things.

[00:07:44] Jody Carrington: And I think it's the fundamental thing that we've always known to be true in this human race is that we like it best when people are calm. We like it best when people are using their words and following directions, and that has historically been true in this human race forever. And so for our forefathers of psychology, the [00:08:00] boys, I like to call them Watson and Skinner back in the day, tried to figure out the best way to get people to stay calm.

[00:08:07] Jody Carrington: And they were creating theories that would then provide infrastructure globally. And so what they discovered is that if you shock a rat, it stops the behavior. You get them back to quiet, and if you reward them like a pigeon with colored water, then it does more of that behavior. Hence behaviorism. The theory of behaviorism was born with the best of intentions, right?

[00:08:29] Jody Carrington: If I reward you enough and punish you enough, then 

[00:08:32] Jennifer: you're gonna do what I want, 

[00:08:33] Jody Carrington: right? 

[00:08:34] Jennifer: And 

[00:08:34] Jody Carrington: the issue is it works. Now, the problem is when that theory was created, there was one thing in this world that we didn't know we had to measure, and that was relationship that was proximity to each other. So very quickly, in three generations, what we have lost dramatically is access to each other.

[00:08:53] Jody Carrington: Mm-hmm. See, the only way you learn how to regulate emotion is not actually by punishment or reward. It is somebody showing [00:09:00] you how to do it. And so. What I talk about often, and I stole this from Dan Siegel, who I think is a brilliant psychiatrist. He taught me this about emotional regulation from a neurophysiological perspective.

[00:09:11] Jody Carrington: If you're listening to this right now, I want you to put your hand up. If you're driving, like maybe just be very careful with one hand, but also maybe pull over. Um, put your thumb on the inside and wrap your fingers around your thumb. And in front of you, you will see your fist with your thumb tucked in the inside and your fingers over top of your thumb.

[00:09:31] Jody Carrington: That is a hand model of your brain and anatomically speaking. You know your arm represents your spinal cord. Your wrist is your brainstem. If you flip your fingers up, tucked inside is your thumb, and your limbic system is represented by your thumb. And that is where the three emotional regulation strategies all of us humans get for free.

[00:09:49] Jody Carrington: Fight, flight and freeze. Those are developed before we take our first breath. Okay? Now, what sets humans apart from most other mammals is the prefrontal cortex that wraps around the limbic system. So if you fold your [00:10:00] fingers back over your thumb, that's your prefrontal cortex and up there lives, everything you've ever been taught in this lifetime.

[00:10:06] Jody Carrington: It lives right above your eyeballs, anatomically speaking in your brain. So if I were to say, and this might be tricky for you, but for many people I would say, you know, gimme your first childhood phone number. Give me, you know the name of your grandmother. Everything you've ever learned in your life lives up there.

[00:10:21] Jody Carrington: So any language you speak, any musical instrument you play, any tradition you have, any cultural, familial systems, things, also things like how to be kind. How to use your words and regulate emotion, how to apologize. None of those things you're born with. Somebody has to show you. Have you ever heard this?

[00:10:38] Jody Carrington: She's flipped her lid. 

[00:10:40] Jennifer: Oh, for sure. 

[00:10:40] Jody Carrington: He's lost his frigging mind. That's the definition of emotional dysregulation. And when you bring a baby home from the hospital, how do they let you know what they need? They cry. They lose their frigging mind because there's not a lot up there yet that says, mommy, I'm hungry, or My bum needs to be changed, or Grandma's voice is annoying.

[00:10:55] Jody Carrington: They lose their mind And the job of big people. The job of big people, hopefully they [00:11:00] have this capacity, is to walk them home. Mm-hmm. It's a ramdas quote that changed everything from me. He said, we are all just here walking each other home. And that for me is the definition of emotional dysregulation.

[00:11:11] Jody Carrington: Emotional regulation is somebody, and in fact, it's a universal response to a crying infant. Regardless of age, race, religion, socioeconomic status, or gender identity. If you are regulated and I put a crying infant in your arms, your automatic response is a rhythmic exchange. Hmm hmm. Why? Because the first sound any of us heard was the heartbeat of our mamas right bump, bubu bump, the rhythmic exchange, and whether she's alive or you have a relationship with her or not, your understanding of emotional regulation is in your bones.

[00:11:43] Jody Carrington: And oftentimes what we don't need in times of distress is somebody to tell us We need somebody to show us. 

[00:11:48] Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:11:49] Jody Carrington: And if, if the big people around us are dysregulated because they're drunk, high, absent fighting trauma or a mental illness, their capacity to give that away becomes significantly difficult.

[00:11:59] Jody Carrington: [00:12:00] And multiple generations of neglect, trauma perpetuate you are the cycle breaker. You are giving your babies a completely different experience than your mama was able to give you. 

[00:12:12] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:12:12] Jody Carrington: And 

[00:12:13] Jennifer: my sisters and I, we 

[00:12:14] Jody Carrington: only Your sisters. Yes. Right. And so the question then becomes, who did it for you? The question then becomes, how was that cycle broken?

[00:12:22] Jody Carrington: And this is my plea in the work that I do, and I think now the work that you do is sort of like drawing the importance of the cycle breakers. Mm-hmm. The importance of those of us in our communities who for some reason in this life have had enough privilege to be regulated at least some of the time.

[00:12:39] Jody Carrington: And if we invest in teachers and police officers and cocky coaches and people who are willing to put their heart and soul into podcasts to say, come here, come here, come here. Let me walk you home. We've never been this disconnected in the history of the free world, so your experience is only gonna be perpetuated, I think in the experience of many kids these days because the regulation of big people has never been [00:13:00] so compromised.

[00:13:01] Jennifer: One of my friends who's a teacher, reached out to me when we launched the first episode and she said, I think every teacher needs to listen to this. She was like, we don't understand what some of these kids are going through. And then it's really hard, and I know you know this, you talk about this in the book, you have to be able to have empathy and you have to be able to acknowledge in order to then be able to move forward.

[00:13:24] Jennifer: Yeah, because if they're stuck in that, how do you even move forward? I think this is such an important moment to pause on what Jodi's describing here is something that so many of us have lived through as kids, like walking to school, carrying that weight of chaos at home, and when a teacher or a coach sees this, then they really get our context and it can change everything.

[00:13:49] Jennifer: I mean, that's empathy and action, and it's what helps us to feel safe enough to learn to trust, and eventually to heal. 

[00:13:58] Jody Carrington: Here's the issue with [00:14:00] education. So I spend the most of my time talking to teachers and police officers, people who are doing a lot of the walking. The prerequisite for empathy is context.

[00:14:09] Jody Carrington: So if you come into a classroom, like if I would imagine little Jen coming into a classroom, being very dysregulated in that house where she doesn't know where her mama is and she's being cared for by a pseudo person who is known by a boyfriend, who whatever, and they're trying to get you to school, right?

[00:14:23] Jody Carrington: And you are dysregulated and you don't trust big people because nobody has given you the indication that this is safe. Why should you come into a school and be compliant? So you may come in and be like, fuck you. And they're like, do this work. And you're like, not today, bitch. That is inappropriate and unacceptable, right?

[00:14:39] Jody Carrington: That's not acceptable behavior. Now, if I understand the context, if I were to pull somebody aside and say to that teacher, can you look at me for a second? This little girl's name is Jennifer, and she's been in six different homes in the last two years. She does not know where her mama is or whether she's safe in this moment, and she's being raised by or cared for in this moment by a group of people she doesn't know.

[00:14:59] Jody Carrington: She's [00:15:00] scared and she feels alone. Now, you can imagine if I said that to that teacher. Your behavior hasn't changed. You're still gonna be crotchety and scared and chippy, but now this teacher has access to empathy. That is the antidote to burnout. I guess to your point, it's like the idea is. When we start to bring awareness to the fact that the old adage that we speak about, everybody's going through something, everybody's got a story.

[00:15:29] Jody Carrington: I think that that is true. Our greatest investment of all time in this season is really how we spend more time slowing down. Because you cannot see the story of another. You lose access to empathy, not your ability, but you lose access to it. The more overwhelmed and disconnected we become, and we've never been more disconnected in the history of the free world than we are in this moment.

[00:15:52] Jody Carrington: Tell me what you think about this, Jim, because I think this is the thing I've been talking about recently on stages, right? Whoever created this human race said there's two [00:16:00] rules, okay? And I don't care what you believe in Jesus or Buddha, Yari, the creator, the great Big Bang doesn't matter to me, okay?

[00:16:05] Jody Carrington: It's a human race. We all got here and our DNA is humans is 99.98% the same. Okay? Race is a social construct, and whoever created us said, I'm gonna make two rules to this human race. Number one, I'm gonna make you people neurobiologically wired for connection, okay? That's the first rule. You disconnect from an infant, they die.

[00:16:21] Jody Carrington: And that will remain true for the rest of time. So you can't automate relationship despite the fact that AI is the thing everybody's talking about. I promise you the only AI that's gonna matter is authentic interaction. 

[00:16:31] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:32] Jody Carrington: So we are neurobiologically wire for connection. Now, whoever created this, that was the first rule.

[00:16:36] Jody Carrington: Second rule they threw, uh, was a bit of a curve ball. They were like, despite the fact that I'm gonna make you neurobiologically wired for connection, the hardest thing you will ever do is look at each other. Ha ha. Now the great human experiment ensues. And people doubt this all the time. You know when I say the hardest thing people will ever do is look at each other, and this is, you know, in my practice is often the only thing I need to get couples to do or family [00:17:00]systems to do is look at each other.

[00:17:01] Jody Carrington: It's the hardest thing and people are like, oh, come on. Like, I've been married to my husband for 18 years, or, you know, I love my children. When you sit and try to look at them, it becomes very difficult. It get becomes uncomfortable. And I do this experiment often in talks that I give. I would say to people just, Hey, look at each other right now.

[00:17:17] Jody Carrington: And they're generally like high functioning, you know, corporate or educators or whatever, and they're like sticking their tongues out at each other and crossing their arms. Like the old crotchety ones in the back are like, this is dumb. Yeah. It is so remarkable to me how hard it is to get people to look at each other.

[00:17:31] Jody Carrington: And the point for me is that it's never been so easy to look away. There's never been this many exit ramps. And it is even estimated that our great grandparents looked at their children 72% more of the time than we look at our babies today. So when we're talking about what we're up against in this moment of healing intergenerational trauma, or attempting to serve in this world of mental health, what we really need to understand is that it comes down to the [00:18:00]neurophysiology.

[00:18:01] Jody Carrington: Your regulated system allows you to heal. If it is dysregulated and untrusting, it cannot move forward. And the thing that destroys a regulated system the most is a human. They're the scariest things that happen to us, and ironically, other humans are the only thing that will heal it. So it becomes very difficult when I'm speaking to that little girl when Jennifer is only known the only safe person to be her siblings.

[00:18:25] Jody Carrington: And I'm gonna say to her, look at me baby girl, you need to start to trust the big people, I promise you. And you're like, get fucked. I can't tell you that. I've gotta show you. And so my guess would be there was repeated safety, even if there were incremental experiences that humans could be safe before you met your husband, before you became a mom.

[00:18:44] Jody Carrington: So that that started to rewire. Your ability to accept those things started to happen. 

[00:18:50] Jennifer: Yeah. I think if I was an only child or one of us were an only child, I think it would've been a very different situation. My mom's family, she was very close to most of her sisters, and she [00:19:00] came from 12. So there were a lot of kids, but she would push and pull based on where she was at.

[00:19:04] Jennifer: So it would be like, yes, you can come in. Yes, you can help me. Yes, you can be here. But then as soon as I don't like what you said or what you did, you're gone again until we were old enough to have those relationships on our own. But I met my husband when I was 20, so like fresh out of the house. Wow. I mean, obviously he has his own story as well as we all do, but I would say the first decade, my twenties for sure was a lot of getting outta my own way.

[00:19:32] Jennifer: I was extremely independent. I was in fight or flight mode. 

[00:19:36] Jody Carrington: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:37] Jennifer: I was dealing with all the things that of course I was gonna be dealing with because of what I just experienced for 18 years. And then my mom was on her own journey and we tried to save her so many times. Like we, you know, we'd done so much.

[00:19:49] Jennifer: And I really thought that if she just hit, you know that saying if she just hits rock bottom. Yeah. So when I was 20, it was a year I met my now husband, she had the worst car accident, ended up [00:20:00] in Sunnybrook Broken Neck, you know, the whole nine yards. And even that didn't change. Behaviors and everything.

[00:20:06] Jennifer: And so for me that was like a pivotal kind of like, oh, okay. It doesn't matter what I do or what I say, she's only gonna be able to save herself. Yeah. So it was a lot. 

[00:20:17] Jody Carrington: I can see that, and I think this is part of the thing that we don't talk enough about in the world of addiction or mental health, is that.

[00:20:26] Jody Carrington: You can't want somebody to change hard enough. No. In addiction in particular, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It's connection. And it is your capacity to believe that you're worthy of connection. Yeah. And if she comes from multiple generations within her bones, believing that. Humans are not worthy of the connection, or the people who look like her or who are in her family weren't worthy of it.

[00:20:53] Jody Carrington: Yeah. It would be very difficult to fight multiple generations with, you know? Mm-hmm. Three little girls trying to [00:21:00] show her that she was. Yeah. And when you have a neurochemical imbalance to add to that, you know, with a mental health issue, you know, whatever that looks like, that's a pretty big hill to fight.

[00:21:11] Jody Carrington: Right. 

[00:21:12] Jennifer: It is. It is. She did fight it though, which was very good. 

[00:21:15] Jody Carrington: Amazing. Tell me about that. Yeah, 

[00:21:18] Jennifer: so towards the end of my twenties it did get to a point where just for my own self health and my sisters, we all pulled away to it a certain extent over a period of time. Obviously, it's a very difficult decision to make.

[00:21:33] Jennifer: It was during that time that she actually started to seek treatments steadily. So she was properly diagnosed. She had intense therapy, she had a great team around her, you know, played with all the cocktails to figure out what worked for her. She did the work and did it the rest of her life. Unfortunately, she was only alive for another nine years.

[00:21:53] Jody Carrington: Wow. 

[00:21:54] Jennifer: It's heartbreaking. 

[00:21:55] Jody Carrington: Yeah. 

[00:21:56] Jennifer: Um, sorry, but, uh, yeah, she did get [00:22:00] there though. 

[00:22:01] Jody Carrington: What a warrior. 

[00:22:02] Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:22:03] Jody Carrington: Oh my gosh. You must be so proud of her. 

[00:22:06] Jennifer: I am. I'm very proud of her. I just wish she had longer on this earth, in that state that she'd fought so hard to be in. 

[00:22:13] Jody Carrington: Her job was done this time. It was just to fight it.

[00:22:16] Jody Carrington: Look at what she's created. Look at this. Hey. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. 

[00:22:21] Jennifer: I know, I know. And she would be so happy to be a part. She is a part of this, but she'd be so happy to see the ripple effect. 'cause she was very proud of all the work that she did as she should have been. I wanna take a breath here. My mom's recovery came later in her life, and even though it only lasted for about nine years, those years really mattered to all of us.

[00:22:47] Jennifer: They mattered so much, and for me, this part of her story isn't about the pain. It's about honoring the fights that she gave and the legacy that she left, and the ripple effect that still continues to [00:23:00] run through myself and my sisters, and even through this podcast, and that's why I share it with you.

[00:23:09] Jennifer: Talking about mental health, and I know this is your world, but there's so many more people who can get to that place at an earlier stage in their lives and in their journey, hopefully today. And hopefully just the needle has moved. Uh, but obviously it needs to keep moving. So that's a big reason why I talk about my experience is so many people resonate in some part of it, right?

[00:23:31] Jody Carrington: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:23:33] Jennifer: Well, I wanted to talk about your description of empathy or chapter on empathy and the difference between empathy and compassion. I felt it was one of the best described ways that I've seen written in a long time, and you have these four kind of pillars of how you feel people can start to connect with empathy.

[00:23:54] Jennifer: Could you tell us a bit more about that? 

[00:23:56] Jody Carrington: Yeah. There's sort of. A big misunderstanding, I think, of what [00:24:00]empathy really is. And even in the literature, it's super confusing, right? We know it's a good thing. We like it when people have it. We're not really sure how you get it. And more than anything, we know it when we feel it, it's so hard to describe.

[00:24:15] Jody Carrington: But the best attempts I think is Liz Wiseman had did a a beautiful job, a nurse practitioner, and Brene Brown took her work. Mm-hmm. And took it even deeper. Like none of this shit I've come up with. But I just took the things that made the most sense to me, and it was really around this idea that it is the fundamental understanding of feeling with another human.

[00:24:33] Jody Carrington: At the Children's Hospital, I worked on a lock psychiatric inpatient unit for kids for 10 years. You know, some of that, half of that, at least I wasn't a mom. And so there would be lots of questions about like, how do you know this if you've never had children? Right? And it's such a great question. How do you start to have opinions?

[00:24:49] Jody Carrington: And in this world of mental health, I've spent a lot of time with people who have schizophrenia or who have struggled with bipolar. I haven't had any of those things either. 

[00:24:57] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:58] Jody Carrington: And so this is for [00:25:00] me to try to understand what it's like to be you and what I know about some of the things that can happen in our brain and in our bodies.

[00:25:06] Jody Carrington: I'm gonna take that, but I need you to teach me what it feels like in your body. And empathy is really that suspending of judgment, which is the hardest thing we will ever do. It is that wondering what it must be like to be in that experience. And one of the words that I think, or the phrases that always allow me to sort of understand a bit more, especially when I step into judgment, right?

[00:25:28] Jody Carrington: If somebody says to me, this is what I'm doing, or vaping's good for me, uh, for example, you know, like, our kids can say shit like this all the time. Like, you know, I just saw it on TikTok mom. Totally dope or Ty or whatever they're saying, and I'm like, listen, I'm gonna rip your lips off if you vape. Like it becomes very difficult to just sort of wonder what that must be like to be them.

[00:25:48] Jody Carrington: Because the biggest fear of empathy is that we're condoning or supporting the behavior. We don't wanna align with it, so we don't wanna know more about it, which is not empathy. Empathy is providing the sense [00:26:00] of a deep understanding, which in and of itself is healing. And I often say the three words that changed my life.

[00:26:07] Jody Carrington: Kelly Corrigan wrote a book with his title and I'm so jealous that I didn't get this book title before she did, but she said these words tell me more. And it is the greatest, I think, reminder for me that when I wanna fix, or when I wanna provide advice, or when I think I know better, which many times I do, and many I think I do, many times as moms, many times as professionals, many times if, you know, we're like, we just got the answer and we wanna get you there quicker because we really, the intention is great.

[00:26:37] Jody Carrington: I wanna save you from pain. Right. I, I can see the end game already. I know that if you vape, this is gonna be a big disaster. Just do this or don't date this person, or you know, just stop that behavior. And that's not what they're looking for. Neither are we, generally speaking what we want. Yeah. Is to feel seen by another human.

[00:26:54] Jody Carrington: And empathy is your tool to be able to do that. It does not mean you condone or support the [00:27:00] behavior. It does not not mean that you don't get to give a solution or a suggestion or a strategy. It is the middle phase of seeking to understand. And in the book I talk about, one of the ways we do that is through acknowledgement.

[00:27:10] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:11] Jody Carrington: And the definition of acknowledgement is sort of like, um, the bearing witness to holding space for. And I have to say, tell me more, is one of the things that sort of get me there the quickest. If I'm really jumping to something, you know, my kids are like, this is how it goes. Or my husband's like, this is it.

[00:27:26] Jody Carrington: It's over. I'm exhausted. I'm never working again. Okay, tell me more. 

[00:27:33] Jennifer: Jody gives us something incredibly simple. Three little words that can shift an entire conversation. It's really quite eyeopening if you think about it. It's a way of connecting that's less about fixing or advising, and more about truly being with somebody in their experience.

[00:27:52] Jennifer: I think you'll find it as powerful as I did. 

[00:27:57] Jody Carrington: I think that empathy has long been talked [00:28:00] about probably in the last decade, is the superpower. And I think it's been a complicated concept, but it really is. Mm-hmm. For me, first you have to have received it in order to give it away. Okay. 'cause you're not born with it.

[00:28:11] Jody Carrington: Yep. And secondly, when you receive it, you'll know it. And as you're listening to this, just think about the time where you felt like somebody totally got you. It didn't even necessarily need to be with words. It could be just sort of like, yes, yes, that is what I feel. Oh my God, you get it. It's that deep sense of sort of almost a regulation.

[00:28:32] Jody Carrington: There's a pulling towards another. There's like this, ugh, sense. The opposite of that is when somebody doesn't get it. The opposite of that is like sort of when you feel silenced or unheard or you're almost like, are you No, no, no, no, no. Oh my God. If that's what you think. I mean, like that is mm-hmm. The opposite of empathy.

[00:28:51] Jody Carrington: And many of us, I can't, you know, a couple of times I can just remember feeling so frustrated, but whatever, like, you know, my dad trying to say to me, this is the best thing for our family. I'm gonna leave you and like, whatever. And I'm like, are you [00:29:00] kidding me right now? 

[00:29:00] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:29:01] Jody Carrington: And that just complete and utter sort of almost invisibility that you feel that's the opposite of empathy.

[00:29:08] Jody Carrington: Sometimes it's easier for people to understand what empathy isn't in order to get what it is. 

[00:29:12] Jennifer: It's like the aloneness that, oh, we felt a lot in childhood 

[00:29:16] Jody Carrington: isolation. 

[00:29:16] Jennifer: The empathy wasn't there. You feel isolated. You don't feel seen. Yes. Yep. 

[00:29:21] Jody Carrington: Yes. And so truly being in that space, it's the greatest gift you can give to another human costs you nothing other than a deep sense of emotional regulation in your own being.

[00:29:30] Jody Carrington: You cannot be empathic to another human being if you're spinning. So it's this like cycle of like, would it be great if we could all give away empathy? Oh yeah. You gotta be regulated first. Oh shit. Somebody's gotta show you how to do that. Yeah. Well, what if I got nobody? Show me how to do that. But the idea is then, you know, how do we seek and find those places?

[00:29:45] Jody Carrington: How can we be those people? And that's, I think the question for me in this career, the highest privilege particularly, I mean, I come from a place, I'm white, I'm straight, I'm able bodied, I'm deeply privileged. I have massive racial biases that I have. [00:30:00] Only begun to unpack, 

[00:30:02] Jennifer: unravel. 

[00:30:02] Jody Carrington: Mm-hmm. And I think that so much of this being in a position of privilege to be able to even offer the walking for another human being, the safe and sacred place of hearing stories, of holding space for, it's the highest calling.

[00:30:16] Jody Carrington: And I mean, I try not to take it for granted every day because, you know, sitting in a room full of people that are willing to tell you their story or having a guest on a podcast or, you know, trying deeply to get another human's experience is, um, I think why we're here. 

[00:30:31] Jennifer: Yeah, I completely agree. You said so much in the book where I'm just like, yep, yep, yep.

[00:30:36] Jennifer: Like it's just, you know, all these mottos that I've lived my life with since I've been able to process things. But one of them, well there's a few, but well, we can get through. One of them is that it's not what happens to you in life, it's how you respond to what happens to you in life. And as you said, it's this cycle of learning how to regulate yourself and then being able to be empathetic and to help [00:31:00] regulate others around us.

[00:31:02] Jennifer: That really resonated with me. 'cause that's been my model for forever. I could fit in the victim side of my life and decide to not break the cycle. And obviously my sisters and I have chosen to not do that. And in connection with that, I loved your line of, and it might be that it's something that you quoted from somebody else, and I'm not remembering who it is, but what you permit, you promote.

[00:31:27] Jennifer: I just feel like it's all these layers that we build on once we decide, okay. Or once we realize our regulation is important in order for us to live the life that we want to and be the person that we want to, and experience everybody around us the way we want to. But that's a big one too, is you know who you surround yourself with, who you have in your community, who you have in your life, who you're spending your time with, is obviously gonna have a big impact on you.

[00:31:53] Jennifer: So can you speak to that a little bit more for us? 

[00:31:56] Jody Carrington: I think so first of all, I could never find who that quote's attributed to. It wasn't mine, [00:32:00] but I always just say it. Um, James Clear, I think has it in his book. Like there's lots of people could say it. Okay. But, um, but yeah, what you permit you promote was really important for me, particularly in this world of leadership and.

[00:32:11] Jody Carrington: I use this example all the time of like if racist jokes are okay every once in a while, just 'cause you're trying to be funny and we're trying to build a culture, you know, it's like what you permit, you promote. There's people that are watching, right? And I had to learn this lesson the hard way, right?

[00:32:23] Jody Carrington: Okay. So fine. Like, yeah, I'm gonna talk a big talk. But when we're sitting around of campfire drinking a beer, like, oh fuck yeah. Like that's, you know, I what you permit, you promote. Yeah. And I think when you're trying to build a culture in a school, when you're trying to build a culture anywhere you allow.

[00:32:38] Jody Carrington: People to come late and make notes and roll their eyes. Okay? So what you permit, you promote, and I think it's really in this space of being clear on what we value the most and what we're willing or not willing to put up with is often based on. Our own worthiness. So if I took your mama back in her twenties, what did she [00:33:00] feel she deserved in that moment?

[00:33:01] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:02] Jody Carrington: And was she enough to say no to this particular partner or the allure of, I'm gonna move you across the country and give you everything, even though she knew that this is wasn't probably true? You know, the, the immediate gratification was better than the long-term consequences. Absolutely. She didn't think beyond that.

[00:33:16] Jody Carrington: Absolute right. Absolute 

[00:33:17] Jennifer: no. 

[00:33:18] Jody Carrington: You can watch her evolution as she grew into this woman that did the work and sort of had people who showed up for her largely probably spurred on by her children. And she then started to shift that focus of a just a second. What I am going to permit is where I need to allow things to happen or not happen because I think more highly of myself, or at least what I need to show my daughters, and sometimes that's the greatest motivation.

[00:33:44] Jody Carrington: When we have other people, we might not do it for ourselves, but we'll do it for our children or our partners or whatever. Right? Yeah. And that's 

for 

[00:33:51] Jennifer: our grandchildren. I think that was her, her 

[00:33:53] Jody Carrington: cruel. Yeah. And sometimes that's just the start that we can sort of then hitch that prefrontal [00:34:00] cortex in and we start to what?

[00:34:01] Jody Carrington: You wire, you fire. So she's like, okay, fine. I won't do it for me 'cause I'm not good enough, but my grand baby. Okay, I'll go all in there. And in that moment then it's sort of like, then we start to anticipate some of those things that might work in the brain that are close to worthiness, and then it starts a little bit more and a little bit more, and a little bit more.

[00:34:19] Jody Carrington: And then she starts to believe that actually no, she can do it. The chaos doesn't feel like home as much as it used to. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:27] Jennifer: Yeah. And the access, you talk about that a lot. This means now getting the access. The tools and the confidence issues. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well I know we have to let you go. So I just have one more question.

[00:34:38] Jennifer: We have a create calm mental health hashtag movement that we've started and we're literally just trying to create like a library of things that people share about how they regulate themselves and how they're able to move to a place of a calm nervous system when they wanna get to that place. And I was wondering if you could share with us, I'm sure you have many.

[00:34:57] Jennifer: But if there was one that you could share with us that would be helpful to our [00:35:00] audience. 

[00:35:01] Jody Carrington: So the thing that I talk about all the time is simply this, drop your shoulders. 

[00:35:05] Jennifer: That's a simple one. 

[00:35:06] Jody Carrington: So in this moment, wherever you are, there's two things actually. So you gotta drop your shoulders first. And the second thing that we don't nearly talk about enough is the importance of dropping your tongue from the roof of your mouth.

[00:35:18] Jody Carrington: The most primitive response to stress is we slam our tongue to the roof of our mouth. So multiple generations ago, we would prepare for battle, and so we'd hear a noise or we would see the army coming over the hill and we would lock our jaw. Okay. In an effort to sort of protect our base, our body now what locks our jaw, what slams our tongue to the roof of the mouth is email notifications is the cortisol shots on our watch.

[00:35:43] Jody Carrington: I have an Apple watch on this morning. Yep. Um. Mostly 'cause I'm trying to get my steps in, but I have to shut off my notifications. 'cause every time it notifies me of something, it's generally not good. Like my kids forgot something, you know, I've got another email I gotta attend to. My husband is like, where, you know, so it there, I know that this, this becomes a cortisol [00:36:00] shooter, this little watch thing, eh.

[00:36:01] Jody Carrington: And so every time those things happen, we are slamming our tongue to the roof of our mouth. And I think we're in a generation where we're not gonna have to prepare. Our bodies will do that for us. What we need to be much more conscious of is. Providing ourselves permission to relax. Reminding our bodies we're safe.

[00:36:21] Jody Carrington: The greatest way I do that, or I, I think about doing that is I have to just remind myself where my shoulders are. And at any point during the day, I write the word. I mean, I have the word shoulders in a sticky note on my bathroom mirror, in my car, on my computer, and every time I see it, because it's such an unconscious process that we're always doing it because we're just ready.

[00:36:41] Jennifer: Yeah, we always, yeah. 

[00:36:41] Jody Carrington: Particularly if it's ancestrally in your body, right? Even, you know, you're not even intending it, but it's just there. So that would be, I think my greatest tip is just really on purpose. Think about where your tongue is and where your shoulders are, as many times as you can in a day.

[00:36:54] Jennifer: Thank you so much. I love that. I love that. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do my stick. 

[00:36:57] Jody Carrington: Drop them shoulders. 

[00:36:59] Jennifer: Thank [00:37:00] you so much for lending your voice to this and sharing all of your knowledge. You have so much wisdom in this arena, and we're gonna share with everybody how to find your books and all of those lovely things.

[00:37:10] Jennifer: But thank you for being here today. 

[00:37:12] Jody Carrington: Aw, Jen, what an honor. I'm so excited for you and I can't wait to see where this goes. 

[00:37:16] Jennifer: Thank you.

[00:37:20] Jennifer: Wow, there was so much in this conversation with Jody today, and I know I'm gonna be sitting with her words for a long time, and hopefully you will too. For me, some of the big takeaways here were how essential regulation is, and that we can't give away what we haven't received. That's a huge one. And that empathy isn't about fixing.

[00:37:41] Jennifer: It's about being willing to say, tell me more. And I keep coming back to that reminder that what we permit and what we promote in our families, in our classrooms, in our workplaces, and in our communities is so important. I also wanna take a moment to honor my mom here. Sharing her letter at the [00:38:00] beginning and talking about her journey with Jodi is part of how I carry her legacy forward.

[00:38:05] Jennifer: And my hope is that in hearing her story and mine, that you feel a reminder of your own strength in your own ability to break cycles. So as you carry this episode with you, maybe notice. Where can you soften your shoulders and quiet your nervous system today? And who in your life might need to be seen by you today?

[00:38:25] Jennifer: Even if all it is is you saying, tell me more. Before we go, I want to invite you to join our hashtag Create Calm Mental Health Movement. This is a space for sharing the creative ways that you can care for your nervous system and bring stillness into your day. So we're just trying to help each other come up.

[00:38:43] Jennifer: With ways and ideas of doing this and building a collective library of tools so that we can all help each other out. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can connect with me through the show notes on social media or at our website, which is triple w Jen, [00:39:00] JENN, st.

[00:39:01] Jennifer: john.ca. Supporting the podcast by subscribing, sharing an episode, or leaving a review is, as everybody knows, one of the best ways to help these conversations reach more people. If something difficult came up while listening, please remember that you don't have to sit with this alone in Canada. You can call or text nine eight eight anytime for free, confidential mental health support.

[00:39:23] Jennifer: You can also reach out in our local area to the CMHA Simco County Crisis Line, which is one triple 8 8 9 3 8. Three three, or you can text 6 8 6 8, 6 8, and you'll be connected to a trained volunteer through the Crisis text line in the us. The 9 8 8 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available twenty four seven by call or text for anyone in emotional distress, not just in crisis.

[00:39:52] Jennifer: And for our listeners in Australia, you can call Lifeline at thirteen eleven fourteen day or night for free and confidential crisis support. [00:40:00] Thank you for listening and for holding space for stories like this and for being a part of this community. We'll be back next week with another great conversation, and until then, take good care of yourselves and each other and hope you keep finding your way forward.