Unstuck

In this episode of The Shadows We Cast, I sit down with Christina Orfanakos, MSW, RSW—Registered Social Worker and founder of Grace North Therapy—for a conversation about attachment, survival patterns, and what it really means to begin feeling safe again.

Some patterns don’t start with us.
They start in the environments we learned to survive in.

We talk about the ways early experiences—especially those shaped by silence, unpredictability, or emotional disconnection—can shape how we move through the world as adults.
How hyper-independence, people-pleasing, over-functioning, and even success can all be rooted in adaptations we learned long before we had language for them.

And how those same patterns that once protected us…
can quietly keep us stuck.

Christina brings both professional insight and deep compassion to this conversation, grounded in her work with women and mothers navigating overwhelm, burnout, and disconnection. Her approach is rooted in attachment theory and the belief that meaningful change happens when we feel seen, understood, and supported.

We also explore:

• how attachment patterns are formed—and how they show up in adulthood
• the difference between empathy and caretaking
• why awareness is the first step, but not the only one
• how to begin reconnecting with your body and nervous system
• and what it looks like to gently shift patterns that no longer serve you

This is a conversation about understanding—not fixing.
About compassion—for the parts of you that learned to survive.
And about the possibility of something different.

About Christina:
Christina Orfanakos is a Registered Social Worker and the founder of Grace North Therapy. She works with women and mothers navigating overwhelm, burnout, and disconnection, with a focus on attachment, emotional regulation, and reconnecting to self.

Connect with Christina:
Instagram: @gracenorththerapy
Website: gracenorththerapy.com
LinkedIn: Christina Orfanakos, MSW, RSW

Host/Producer/Writer/Director: Jenn St John

Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
Follow along:
Instagram: @jenn_stjohn
LinkedIn: Jenn St John

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Subscribe, leave a review, or just send a little love—your support helps these conversations reach the people who need them most.

Transcript

TRANSCRIPT

Podcast: The Shadows We Cast

Season: 2

Episode: Unstuck

Host: Jenn St John

Guest: Christina Orfanakos 

[00:00:00] Christina: When we talk about attachment theories, sometimes it can feel daunting. Oh my gosh. Well, if I am anxiously attached or disorganized attached, what does this mean for me? Am I stuck like this forever? The answer to that is absolutely not. It really comes down to understanding and holding space for these ways that you've learned to attach, were all things you had to do to stay safe and protect yourself.

[00:00:27] Christina: Knowing that with awareness and with this knowledge, we can start to shift and change and move into patterns that actually represent how we wanna feel. 

[00:00:39] Jennifer: Hello and welcome to The Shadows. We cast a podcast about what we carry, the impact we leave, and the messy, beautiful reality of mental health. I'm Jen St.

[00:00:49] Jennifer: John, a writer, business owner, and a mental health advocate who grew up in a family shaped by mental illness. Some of it was heartbreaking, some of it darkly funny, and all of it shaped [00:01:00] who I am today. Here we're gonna share honest conversations, stories from me, from you, and from those who have walked this road in different ways, through journal entries, letters from my mom, and real conversations.

[00:01:12] Jennifer: We're gonna pull back the layer on mental health, the tough parts, the moments that shaped us, and how we move forward together. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's talk.

[00:01:30] Jennifer: Today I'm joined by Christina from Grace North Therapy. Christina is a therapist who blends professional expertise with her own lived experience of motherhood, identity and healing. She's built a practice that helps people connect with themselves, understand how early pattern shape their adult lives, and find compassionate ways forward.

[00:01:51] Jennifer: I couldn't think of a better guest to sit down with for this conversation because so much of what we'll be talking about comes back to the survival [00:02:00] strategies that we learned as kids and how those same patterns can trip us up as adults. Christina's work creates a space to untangle that with both honesty and hope.

[00:02:11] Jennifer: Before we dive into the interview, I want to share a piece from my own journal. It's from a time when I was just beginning to put language around what I'd already known internally, but had never really dared to say out loud, because that's the thing. When you grow up in a house marked by mental illness or addiction, silence becomes its own kind of

[00:02:33] Jennifer: language.

[00:02:35] Jennifer: When you grow up in a house with mental illness or addiction that goes undiagnosed, unspoken, or denied, you become very fluent in silence. You learn what can't be said. You learn how to scan the room, how to feel the energy, and how to tiptoe around the truth. This excerpt brings you into that world a childhood of knowing, protecting, and surviving.

[00:02:56] Jennifer: As a child, you can pick up on things non-verbally. You [00:03:00] learn what is allowed to be talked about and what isn't. My sisters and I learned very quickly that there were many taboo subjects in our household. Hot knives, bags of drugs, bongs, the vodka and the orange juice. We couldn't take a sip of the brandy and the coffee every morning.

[00:03:14] Jennifer: The headaches, the falling, vomiting, the vising for the red eyes, the sleeping for days, the tiptoeing around. We hid things from people for her, and we felt she needed our protection. We felt like we were all she had. We buried a lot of our own needs and we relied on each other to make it through each day, each night, and through our childhood.

[00:03:34] Jennifer: Of course, we did have concerning family, past boyfriends of my mom's, teachers and friends, parents, but in those dark moments of confusion, pain, and heartache, we only had each other. Welcome, Christina. 

[00:03:48] Christina: Thank you for having me, and thank you for sharing that. The inside glimpse of what life was like for you.

[00:03:54] Jennifer: Yes, it very much was. Thank you so much for being here today and for the work that you do for [00:04:00] creating spaces like Grace North that are rooted in real life experience and not just theory. As I was preparing for this conversation, I kept thinking about how our healing usually begins at a moment when we become the things we once needed.

[00:04:13] Jennifer: So that could be maybe as a parent or a partner or when you're just finally showing up for yourself and in your practice. I know it's very much rooted in both a personal and professional experience, and I know that motherhood in particular has a way of cracking us all wide open. What did it reveal for you about your own early experience or identity that surprised you?

[00:04:34] Christina: That's a loaded question. I don't think there's one real, you know, tangible answer. I think. Every age and stage of parenting reveals something new about ourselves. Whether we're open to seeing that, reflecting on that is for everyone to kind of decide for themselves. But you know, you're really just preparing in motherhood for the more obvious things.

[00:04:58] Christina: Labor delivery [00:05:00] breast or bottle. Thinking about things like getting the nursery ready and figuring out what kind of support you need and who's around. I don't know if you're ever really fully prepared for how motherhood really just leave you reflecting on your own experience of being mothered. 

[00:05:19] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:19] Christina: So that's a really humbling experience to go through and I think. As you navigate through different ages and stages of your child's development, you're also coming face to face with your own experience at that age. So my child's 11 now, and there's lots of things that showed up for me when she was younger.

[00:05:41] Christina: I find this experience of her at 11, one of the most challenging 'cause it was also the most challenging time in my childhood experience, you know, of just evolving and growing and wanting control and autonomy, but also still needing a loving, nurturing parent. And I [00:06:00] see that in her and I notice that I have.

[00:06:02] Christina: Sometimes difficulty being that nurturing, empathetic parent because that's not something that I consistently received at that age. 

[00:06:11] Jennifer: It's funny when I'm like that little person, my little Jen at 12 had already experienced so much. 

[00:06:19] Christina: It's wild, isn't it? How much of our motherhood experience just highlights some of the things we didn't get in our own childhood or highlight some of the things that happened that shouldn't have.

[00:06:31] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:06:31] Christina: Um, 

[00:06:31] Jennifer: yeah, 

[00:06:32] Christina: and it's hard to hold space for that and maybe also even be thankful that they'll never have to experience that. That you've created a family dynamic that protects them from some of the things your 12-year-old self had to witness and experience. So there's something really beautiful about that.

[00:06:48] Christina: Motherhood's. Also an invitation to break generational cycles and loosen up some patterns. 

[00:06:54] Jennifer: Yeah, to grow. 

[00:06:55] Christina: Yeah. To grow. Right. And to be for our children, what nobody was for us. 

[00:06:59] Jennifer: [00:07:00] Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:00] Christina: Love, love for me. Definitely not alone in that. 

[00:07:03] Jennifer: I know. That's the reason we are talking. Exactly. You talk a lot about attachments and for someone listening who might feel like, that's not for me.

[00:07:12] Jennifer: I had food on the table. I had a roof over my head. Turned out okay. How would you gently reframe the importance of attachment patterns and their riffle effects? Kind of like that assumption with compassion that disarms the I had a normal childhood. 

[00:07:27] Christina: Yeah. That's always a tough one, right? Because I think parenting, you know, back at generations before us was really about is there food on the table?

[00:07:35] Christina: Is there a roof over your head? There's clothes on your back. That's the definition of a good childhood. 

Yep. 

[00:07:41] Christina: And so as we've grown and evolved generationally, we're learning a lot more about emotional attunement and how that creates such a strong sense of safety for us. So yes, you had a great childhood and even if you had some, you know, inconsistent.

[00:07:56] Christina: You can still have a great childhood. 

[00:07:58] Jennifer: Sure. Yeah. 

[00:07:58] Christina: I think it's just really [00:08:00] important to understand attachment theory and understand what that means. And really it's just about how we relate to ourselves and how we relate to people in our lives and the world around us. That starts in our early life experiences with our parents or caregivers, and it really comes down to relational safety.

[00:08:19] Christina: So it's like, am I safe with you? That's what we're all looking for in our early days. And if not, how do I adapt and change and shift to try to achieve that? 

[00:08:30] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:30] Christina: Because at the end of the day, children are always just looking for connection and safety with a caregiver and without a doubt will trump them being their authentic selves.

[00:08:41] Christina: Gabor Mateo has this beautiful quote around authenticity and attachment, and we will always choose attachment.

[00:08:49] Jennifer: You'll hear Christina mention Gabor Mate, a physician and author who's written extensively about trauma and attachment. His work often [00:09:00] reminds us that we will sacrifice authenticity to preserve connection, a theme woven through this part of our conversation.

[00:09:10] Christina: When we think about attachment theory, there's lots of theory around it. I won't get into the nitty gritty, but I think it's important to recognize that when we experience consistent attuned caregiving, we're more likely to develop a secure attachment. And really that just means we have a safe place to land when we go out into the world, we feel safe to explore.

[00:09:30] Christina: We feel safe to ask for help. We know that people will show up for us. If our caregivers were emotionally unavailable or they weren't attuned to us, if they were unpredictable, if they were really overwhelmed or in a cycle of addiction, then we're gonna adapt in different ways to try to secure that safety and not leaves us in insecure attachments.

[00:09:51] Christina: There's lots of theory around that or what that looks like. So someone who's anxiously attached is gonna be that person who's really hyper aware. Who's [00:10:00] constantly looking and scanning for the needs and worries about other people. 

[00:10:04] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:04] Christina: Right. The other side of that is the avoidance attachment. So that's someone who might learn to just shut down their emotions entirely and really develop a sense of self-reliance.

[00:10:16] Christina: Right. The avoidance attachment is I have to take care of myself. No one else is gonna take care of me. There's a small part of the population too that experiences disorganized attachment, and when you've grown up in really frightening or chaotic environments, you are going to have this kind of push pull dynamic with people, right?

[00:10:35] Christina: I want closeness, but oh my gosh, do I ever fear that? And so that can be really an uncomfortable position, right? There's this deep longing for somebody to care for you, but when somebody gets close, the fear of them moving too closely has you shutting down, moving away, sabotaging a relationship. 

[00:10:52] Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:52] Christina: Because we haven't built that internal safety to tolerate vulnerability, and I think it's just really important to know is that. [00:11:00] When we talk about these shifts and changes, and we talk about attachment theory, sometimes it can feel daunting, right? Oh my gosh, well, if I am anxiously attached or disorganized attached, what does this mean for me?

[00:11:10] Christina: Am I stuck like this forever? The answer to that is absolutely not. It really comes down to understanding and holding space for these ways that you've learned to attach, were all things you had to do to stay safe and protect yourself. Holding tons of compassion around that for yourself and knowing that with awareness and with this knowledge, we can start to shift and change and move into patterns that actually represent how we wanna feel and how we wanna show up in our lives and in relationships with other people.

[00:11:42] Christina: Does that make sense? 

[00:11:43] Jennifer: Absolutely. That's my lived experience because for sure I was probably disorganized and it took basically my entire decade of my twenties to figure out how to not to be 

[00:11:55] Christina: good for you. That's a hard thing to face at 20 when you just wanna live your life, you [00:12:00] know, and pretend like everything's rosy.

[00:12:03] Jennifer: My sisters and I, we've all done a lot of work to have relationships in our lives, have marriages, have great relationships. Our kids with our friends, like have a sense of community, but also I think it takes a lot for people to realize that all those things that serve you as a child no longer serve you later on in adulthood.

[00:12:22] Jennifer: And that's a big step through on the inside. 

[00:12:25] Christina: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:25] Jennifer: And again, it's that realization and awareness. Then you can move. Hopefully for kids growing up in households with untreated mental illness and addiction, there's often that sense that something's off, even if somebody doesn't say something out loud.

[00:12:38] Jennifer: How does this kind of silent instability affect a child's nervous system and safety? I know we just talked about this a little bit, but 

[00:12:45] Christina: Yeah, no, that's okay. You know, you touch on something so important and when we think about trauma and we look at childhood trauma, intergenerational trauma, we're looking through things that happened.

[00:12:56] Christina: Like if there's physical abuse or if there's a critical [00:13:00] incident that we can label and see, right? But a lot of time, complex trauma is around the things that didn't happen, right? So it's like that silence or just the tension that you feel in a situation where your nervous system is telling you something's wrong.

[00:13:15] Christina: But gosh, you're just so little and innocent. You can't figure out or name what that is. And so when we don't have the language, we're not getting validation that. Yeah, how you're feeling makes sense. Something is really off in this environment. The thing that we tend to do as children, journalize that and that internalization turns into beliefs that we hold about ourselves.

[00:13:39] Christina: There's something wrong with me. I must be a burden, right? I'm unlovable. I'm not worthy. And so when we hold those beliefs about ourselves in these environments, that really shapes how we're gonna show up in our life. 

[00:13:52] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:13:52] Christina: As childhood, right? If mom's lashing out in anger, I've done something wrong. I must be bad.

[00:13:58] Christina: Or if dad's not here, if he [00:14:00] disappears or he's not emotionally available, then ugh, that's I'm not lovable. Or we have a parent who's like really kind and loving, and then the next day is really cold and distant. 

[00:14:11] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:12] Christina: And if that's a consistent experience that we have that teaches us that we're not worthy of love or that we have to earn love.

[00:14:19] Christina: So when I was talking earlier about those adaptations that we make, it's okay, well what do I have to do to earn that love? I have to be really good. I have to be quiet all the time. Right. I heard you say that one earlier. It's like if I just don't say anything, maybe I'll be safe and I'll be okay, or I have to be really helpful.

[00:14:37] Christina: That's another one, right? I have to be the caretaker now. If I'm just really helpful, maybe mom will be okay, and then if mom's okay, I'm okay. So the people pleaser thing 

[00:14:47] Jennifer: kicks 

[00:14:47] Christina: it. Yeah, for sure. Right. But it's such a beautiful adaptation of I'm trying to keep myself safe. 

[00:14:55] Jennifer: Yeah, 

[00:14:55] Christina: right. And so I always, always come back to that, and my clients will always say, I sound [00:15:00] like a broken record, because I'm constantly reminding them this is the protective part.

[00:15:05] Christina: You needed this. Imagine if you didn't have it, what would that have looked like? And so when we think about the impact that has on a child, we think about their self-worth, their level of confidence, their capacity to make decisions. It's really hard to think about their capacity, even trust the. When we see a situation as a young child where we feel that something's wrong or we know something's wrong, but perhaps we get validation that it's not, everything's fine.

[00:15:33] Christina: You're being dramatic, you're being too needy. All of these things we disconnect from our body. Oh, well, if this caregiver is saying everything's fine, but I'm feeling like it's not, I must be wrong then 

[00:15:44] Jennifer: yeah. 

[00:15:46] Christina: And so it creates a lot of confusion for kids growing up into their teens, early twenties, adulthood around their capacity to trust what their body might be telling them.

[00:15:56] Jennifer: Because you start to not trust your instincts, right? 

[00:15:59] Christina: Yeah. [00:16:00] And so your nervous system gets so confused. It's like, wait a minute, am I safe or am I not safe? Like, can I even connect with my nervous system right now? Is my body and brain on the same page? 

[00:16:10] Jennifer: Like getting out of that survival mode, honestly, for me took like 10 years and then it was like a marked difference when I was not in flight or flight all the time anymore.

[00:16:19] Jennifer: But you don't know, like you said, it's nothing you can name as a child. This is just your normal. 

[00:16:24] Christina: And even when you start to feel safer as you're talking about, you know, coming out of survival mode, that can feel really overwhelming too, and really uncomfortable. 'cause you're not used to what it feels like to be calm and regulated.

[00:16:37] Christina: Yeah. And you create chaos, 

[00:16:39] Jennifer: you guess. You don't realize that, that yeah, that's all you're used to. Yeah. These are big moments in adulthood when you're first assessing things. 

[00:16:47] Christina: Yeah, they really are. But it's like so cool in in therapy to watch somebody have those aha moments to have somebody make those connections.

[00:16:58] Christina: Right. You instantly just imagine your [00:17:00] brain and body coming back online with each other. Oh, it's so beautiful to witness and it really is such important work so that we can have those relationships with ourself. Right? 

[00:17:10] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:17:10] Christina: And really start to recognize what it feels like to have a regulated nervous system, 

[00:17:14] Jennifer: because it really is the relationship with yourself.

[00:17:16] Jennifer: It's the most important. Everything springs from there. Mm-hmm. So your work with adults who are highly capable, highly successful people, but beneath that, they obviously struggle to feel emotionally safe and trust deeply just talking about this. Mm-hmm. Where do you think that split begins? For many of us?

[00:17:34] Jennifer: So that self-reliance over-functioning and vulnerability piece. 

[00:17:39] Christina: Yeah, I think it kind of trails back to what we were saying earlier, self-reliance or, you know, I call that hyper independence that is born from somewhere. 

[00:17:49] Jennifer: Yeah. We all had that. All of us. 

[00:17:51] Christina: I mean, it's, it's kind of across the board it sounds like.

[00:17:53] Christina: Right. And really someone who's overly self-reliant or hyper independent that is born from, I [00:18:00] can't count on anyone. Stand. I'm constantly let down when I have tried to. Mm-hmm. And you hold this belief that like nobody's here to take care of me. I have to rely on myself. 

[00:18:10] Jennifer: Yep, 

[00:18:11] Christina: it makes sense then if that's the belief you hold, that's the childhood experience you had, that it would be really, really hard in your adult life to show up vulnerable.

[00:18:22] Christina: Mm-hmm. And to let people take care of you. So, yeah, hyper independent people, self-reliant people are really successful because they're hustling for their worth. They're hustling for validation, and they have to earn love and appreciation. There's a belief that love is conditional upon how you show up. If I'm just, you know, perfect enough, then if I just reach this ring on the ladder at work, then I'll finally get that feeling that I'm after.

[00:18:53] Christina: Yeah. And so as a child, when that role kind of develops into your adulthood and into relationships, [00:19:00] it really highlights some of the things that you probably went without in childhood. I think what's important to understand though, and I might have said this or not, so I'll just say it again to make sure.

[00:19:11] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:19:11] Christina: But when we think about somebody who had a childhood who's been self-reliant and now they're an adult in relationship. 

[00:19:19] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:19] Christina: Right. I think the thing that's really important to know is that this person is really craving connection, is really craving to be seen, to be heard, and to be nurtured and cared for, but.

[00:19:33] Christina: The problem or the struggle is that when somebody comes close to do that, we need to put our arms out and keep space because the fear of being disappointed or let down is so great. 

[00:19:46] Jennifer: That sense of always having one foot out the door is what I feel like my twenties was about most of my 

[00:19:52] Christina: twenties. That's a beautiful, yeah, that's a beautiful way to say it.

[00:19:55] Christina: It's like, I want this, but I'm not sure that I'll be able to handle it, and so I just [00:20:00] need to know that I have an exit plan. 

[00:20:01] Jennifer: Well, that leads me into this next question. So talking about those hidden strategies that were survival strategies for us as children, the ones that have saved us as kids now trip us up as adults.

[00:20:13] Jennifer: What are some of the most common things that you see with this and what's the first step? I know awareness. What's the first step after awareness? 

[00:20:22] Christina: Well, I'm gonna say that over and over again. 

[00:20:27] Jennifer: You'll notice that we come back to caretaking a few times in this conversation. That's intentional. It shows up in so many different ways as children, trying to keep a parent safe and later as adults, taking on the responsibility for everyone else.

[00:20:41] Jennifer: It's worth sitting with this. 

[00:20:45] Christina: After you're, you realize this and make the connection, what's kind of the first step towards letting things go? When I think about the survival strategies, gosh, this could be a whole session in and of itself, right? We talk about this all the time [00:21:00] in sessions. It's just really helping people unblend all of the parts that are keeping them alive and well.

[00:21:08] Christina: And so many of these strategies that we developed are helpful then and not so much now, like you said, and the most common ones. For sure. Are people pleasing? What do I have to do to make sure I'm liked, make sure I'm loved, make sure this person doesn't leave me. And that's not just in relationship, that can be with colleagues, friendships, you know, partners, kids even.

[00:21:31] Christina: And the perfectionism kind of goes hand in hand with that. One is if I just do everything perfectly, I'll be loved and accepted, and I can protect myself from rejection. 

[00:21:41] Jennifer: Okay, 

[00:21:42] Christina: we touched on overachieving, right? Being highly successful is I have to earn love and validation. I have to earn a sense of worthiness, and I'll do that by constantly trying to achieve and reach all these different goals, right?

[00:21:54] Christina: Mm-hmm. This never ending climb to nowhere, you're chasing something that [00:22:00] is an inside job and nothing externally is gonna give you that. The biggest survival strategy, especially for women and mothers that I see in the practice and is my own experience as well as caretaking. You touched on that in the beginning.

[00:22:14] Christina: I heard you say in your excerpt about just needing to protect mom and take care of mom at all costs. That's something we feel a lot is how the caretaker takes on the responsibility of other people's problems. The caretaker takes on the responsibility of other people's feelings as a way to gain internal safety and control in perhaps a chaotic environment.

[00:22:38] Christina: I liken it to, if they're not okay, I'm not okay. And it's my job to make them okay so I can feel, okay. So how is that different from empathy? That's a great question. That is a really great question. Empathy says, I'm here to support you, and it's holding space for someone to process emotions. But empathy [00:23:00] means I can help you without sacrificing myself, 

[00:23:03] Jennifer: right?

[00:23:03] Christina: And my own needs. Yeah, caretaking is, I'm abandoning my needs. I'm detaching from what's important to me so that you are okay. 

[00:23:12] Jennifer: Like completely depleting yourself from somebody else. So very much what we were doing when we were younger with our mom. 

[00:23:19] Christina: Yeah. 

[00:23:20] Jennifer: So for each of those, and I know it's obviously different for each person and where they're at with their journey, but just anything kind of.

[00:23:28] Jennifer: Beginning wise, when you see somebody who has some awareness, what are some of the things that we can start to do? 

[00:23:37] Christina: I mean, that's everybody's question all the time is I know this, I know this. Just make me feel better. And I wish there was this like tangible step by step that I could give people. Like, just do this and everything will be fine.

[00:23:49] Christina: And here's the checklist. Yeah, here's the checklist. And you know, it's one of these things is therapy where I'm like, okay, I'm about to disappoint you. There are some things [00:24:00] though. There really are, and once we get to that place of awareness and recognizing that, okay, these patterns and parts of me were protective, that is first and foremost, none of the work can really get done until we hold that, we don't have to believe it a hundred percent.

[00:24:15] Christina: Right. That's a work in progress. We just have to make space and be curious that, okay, I'm not flawed, I'm not bad. 

[00:24:22] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:24:22] Christina: These parts are here to protect me and I. Needed them then might they be in the way now? Perhaps, and I think one of the things I always say is, let's just get curious. Let's move away from being critical about these parts.

[00:24:38] Christina: 'cause we can be really critical when they're really bothering us in our present day or where they're interfering in relationships. But let's get curious about why they're here. They developed for a reason. Acknowledge them with compassion. Oh, you're showing up. I'm really frustrated that you're here. I understand it's with good reason.

[00:24:56] Christina: You think I'm unsafe right now. And so scanning your [00:25:00] environment? I'm actually not. 

[00:25:01] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:25:02] Christina: Yeah. Right. And then where I think this is a, you know, as we detach from ourselves when we've experienced trauma, we really need to get to know how these parts show up in our body. So I always start with, okay, I'm aware of the pattern, I intellectually understand the pattern.

[00:25:18] Christina: Where is this living in me? Right. I feel that anxiousness in my chest, or gosh, I feel this heaviness in my stomach and in my gut. And what you're doing is just bringing awareness and attention to where it's sitting and you can offer your body some compassion. Oh, I can feel you. You know, mine's always in my gut.

[00:25:38] Christina: I carry every feeling that I have. It just sits heavy down there. Even when I think about this podcast, um, I noticed that this morning. I'm like, gosh, my stomach is like out to here. Like, what is happening? I'm like, oh, right. I'm super anxious about going on a podcast. And so I can just offer myself some compassion.

[00:25:58] Christina: It makes sense. Yeah. You're not [00:26:00] used to talking to somebody about this outside of the therapy room or just in conversation with a friend or a colleague, so it makes sense that I feel anxious, right? Yeah. Notice, bring awareness and bring compassion. And then I think what people like to hear is this next part, although it's really important not to jump to it.

[00:26:19] Christina: It's around practicing. And really what that means is we have to teach our nervous system to be safe again. So how can you practice that in real time? And that might look like actually having a vulnerable conversation with somebody intentionally. We don't need to give them our whole life story, but maybe a vulnerable conversation is, I'm having a hard day.

[00:26:40] Christina: Can we chat? Or if someone asks how you are, maybe you actually say how you are. Actually, I'm really tired and feeling overwhelmed, so you know, it's not the greatest day for me. Maybe you speak up when you're used to being quiet. 

[00:26:55] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:55] Christina: And that doesn't mean you have to argue with somebody. That might mean you share your opinions.[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] Christina: If you're having a conversation about something, maybe you just share what you think. You notice how that feels. Um, maybe you make a mistake on purpose for all our wonderful people with perfectionism. You know, I say this one all the time in session is how would it feel to maybe send an email to a colleague or a boss that you didn't proofread, or that you intentionally mess up the punctuation, right?

[00:27:24] Christina: Maybe you didn't capitalize something. What do you think that might feel like? 

[00:27:28] Jennifer: Yeah, 

[00:27:29] Christina: so this, this is the practice that we all need to kind of. Increase our capacity to tolerate distress. 

[00:27:37] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:37] Christina: Right? We have to tolerate what it feels like. 'cause we can, we're safe and we're okay in childhood. That might've meant something really bad was gonna happen.

[00:27:45] Christina: But right now, when I send an email, is it really true that we're gonna get fired? Our boss is gonna hate us, we're gonna get a bad performance evaluation. 'cause we didn't put a capital on the, you know, on the title. Right. And so we're just teaching our nervous system. Okay. I can handle that. Yeah, [00:28:00] I can do that.

[00:28:01] Christina: And everything is still gonna be okay. I don't like to say the word homework, but for lack of a better word, it's can you go out into the world and do these little mini experiments? 

[00:28:10] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:10] Christina: To really el loosen what your nervous system has been taught from childhood. 

[00:28:15] Jennifer: Yeah. And 'cause you're really rewiring your nervous system.

[00:28:18] Christina: Exactly. It's been wired for safety and now you wanna wire it for connection. I 

[00:28:24] Jennifer: love that. So you work with so many women who feel like they're never doing enough, but especially those who seem to always be doing everything. What are some of the common roots of that burnout, and how do early experiences play a role?

[00:28:40] Christina: This question is really nuanced, right? Because I think motherhood, modern motherhood today, there isn't a mother in the world that hasn't experienced disconnection from self struggles with their own identity experiences, burnout, because we have this great expectation on us to do it all and to do it all well, and the demands on us [00:29:00] to parent to be in a healthy relationship, to work full time, taking care of aging parents is just.

[00:29:06] Christina: There's no way we're coming out the other end. 

[00:29:09] Jennifer: No. Something's gotta give. 

[00:29:10] Christina: Yeah, something's gotta give. Right. And so I think our present day struggles in motherhood are very real and valid, and I think our history kind of exacerbates how we experience the struggles of today, if that makes sense. That does, and I think a lot of our early attachment history, especially for women who have experienced emotional, like chronic emotional neglect 

[00:29:36] Jennifer: mm-hmm.

[00:29:36] Christina: Who have a history of not getting their needs met or are parentified women who are taking care of their parents versus their parents taking care of them. 

[00:29:46] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:29:46] Christina: Really lends to a future person who feels overwhelmed, burnt out, and who over functions in their family. Doing for everyone what they can do for themselves, essentially.

[00:29:59] Jennifer: Sometimes we [00:30:00] don't even know that we're in survival mode because it's just normal for us. What are some of the ways that people can begin to tell the difference between that traumatic response versus authentic alignment?

[00:30:11] Christina: Oh, easiest answer. And one, I think that we've probably already said, my clients hate me for this too.

[00:30:18] Christina: I'm like, notice, notice, notice, notice. You know, at the end of a session, I'm like, go out into the world and notice, start paying attention to all the little cues that your body is giving you. How you feel when you're talking to somebody, who that person is, what's coming up for you. 

[00:30:34] Jennifer: Right? 

[00:30:35] Christina: And I think one of the things that I.

[00:30:36] Christina: Really encourage people in practice who are open to doing this is start to just check in with yourself throughout the day. When you wake up in the morning, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? Where am I feeling that in my body? That an alarm on your phone to do that again at noon? 

[00:30:53] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:53] Christina: Now what am I thinking?

[00:30:54] Christina: What am I feeling? Where am I noticing that in my. Before bed. What am I thinking? What am I [00:31:00] feeling? Where am I noticing that in my body? Because we're really, really trying to teach our nervous system to come back online. And when we've spent years of having to detach from it or when we've been in survival mode, it's like you said, you don't know the difference.

[00:31:13] Christina: The chaos feels familiar, the survival mode feels familiar. So 

[00:31:17] Jennifer: yeah, 

[00:31:17] Christina: I need to know what it feels like to feel safe and calm, and so I really have to attune to all these little micro moments of when that's happening for me. 

[00:31:27] Jennifer: I love that one. I really love that one. I use meditation quite a bit, which is basically that if it's only 10 minutes, I'll do it throughout the day and just do exactly that, check in with myself and just kind of make sure that I'm aware of how I'm doing.

[00:31:42] Christina: I think it's really important to be doing that. I also wanna honor how incredibly hard it is. 

[00:31:48] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:48] Christina: Especially for somebody who's just starting this work. 

[00:31:51] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:31:52] Christina: 10 minutes of silence can be incredibly overwhelming and activating so much so that it could make things worse for [00:32:00] somebody. So I always say.

[00:32:02] Christina: 30 seconds. Notice how it feels. Mm-hmm. If you can tolerate another 30 seconds, then do that. We also do it in session two. Sometimes the safety of the relational experience can help somebody tolerate sitting in silence for a minute. Right. I've done that with clients. We put on the timer for one minute.

[00:32:20] Christina: Okay. We're not gonna say anything, we're just gonna notice. 

[00:32:23] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:32:23] Christina: And so it really is a skill and so like with any skill, we get better at it through practice. 

[00:32:29] Jennifer: Yeah. All of my sisters and I, all three of us, we all do yoga. Meditation is a big part of that, but my youngest sister, she's not very good at it's silence.

[00:32:40] Jennifer: She's like, I'm still trying to get used to that. EMDR has been such a transformational tool for so many. Can you tell us about this theory and also for someone new to it, can you walk us through what a session might feel like or how it actually helps reprocess painful memories? [00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Christina: Yeah, sure. EMDR. I always even have to write down what the acronym means.

[00:33:04] Christina: I can't off the top of my head say, it says, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Wow, that's a lot. It's such a mouthful. 

[00:33:14] Jennifer: Just to clarify, EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization and Reprocessing. It's a therapeutic approach that helps the brain and the body process stuck memories. 

[00:33:28] Christina: So EMDR, and it really is just the process of helping people reprocess traumatic or overwhelming memories that get stuck in the nervous system.

[00:33:38] Christina: So it uses bilateral stimulation to activate both sides of the brain, kind of like, um, when you're in REM sleep, and it helps the brain rewire how it stores a memory and it reduces and eliminates the distress. Around the traumatic memory that someone might have. So essentially at the end of a [00:34:00] reprocessing, you still have the memory of course, but the emotions and the distress that are attached to it are no longer there.

[00:34:07] Christina: And so the presence of, oh, that was awful, and I'm okay now is where we want to get to when we are doing EMDR. 

[00:34:16] Jennifer: Okay, 

[00:34:17] Christina: so I kind of liken it to imagine you just had this filing cabinet with all of these drawers open, right? And all of these drawers represent a belief you have about yourself. So they might be labeled with, I'm not good enough, I'm a burden, I'm not lovable.

[00:34:33] Christina: And the contents of the drawers, which are your memories and distressing events, are just scattered. All over the floor. Just such a mess. And so EMDR helps you gently pick up all of those papers, make sense of them, and file them back into the proffer drawers, and then helps you close up that drawer and relabel it with a belief that makes more sense.

[00:34:57] Christina: I am lovable. I am worthy. I'm not a [00:35:00] burden. My needs matter. 

[00:35:02] Jennifer: That 

[00:35:02] Christina: sounds like a lot of work. Yeah, it is. It takes a lot of work for a client to get to a place where they're ready to do that reprocessing, but I think it's just so helpful because really what it's doing is helping you create safety again in your body and helping you recognize that, okay, my brain and my body have been disconnected for good reason.

[00:35:25] Christina: And I'm safe and I'm okay now to let them come back online with each other. And when we're able to make those connections and we're able to reduce the distress that a memory or a situation has, we feel more grounded and connected. And like we had said earlier, that really transcends into the relationships we have.

[00:35:47] Christina: Our lives. Our lives. 

[00:35:48] Jennifer: Yeah. It changes you and then obviously it changes everything else. It's just such a massive ripple effect. 

[00:35:52] Christina: Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard work. I won't minimize that. It is hard work and it's really [00:36:00] worth it work though. Yeah. And I think it's important to recognize too, you know, a lot of people think when they've experienced trauma, that they need to go right back into this traumatic memory and relive every painful experience of it.

[00:36:13] Christina: And that's just not true for EMTR. The idea is, yes, we put one foot back in the memory, but we are grounded in safety in this moment, and so we're just letting the brain and the body do what it couldn't do in that moment. Right. We're giving it the space and the safety so that we can just take something that's stuck and really unstick it so that we can feel this sense of relief and calm within our system.

[00:36:39] Jennifer: Yeah. It's almost like exposure therapy going back into it, but as you say, with one foot in the place of you're safe and you're okay now. Yeah. 

[00:36:47] Christina: Yeah, exactly. You're safe and you're okay now. Oh, I, I say that over and over again in a reprocessing session. You're safe here with me. 

[00:36:56] Jennifer: Oh, I can only imagine. Oh my gosh.

[00:36:58] Jennifer: Yeah. The weight of having that little child [00:37:00] inside you, right? It's whew. 

[00:37:01] Christina: Yeah. 

[00:37:03] Jennifer: So let's say someone is listening who is just starting to wake up to their past, and it feels obviously overwhelming for them, but what's one gentle and doable action that they could take starting today to start that reconnection with themselves?

[00:37:17] Christina: Well, I already said this earlier, so I would say like really start to pay attention throughout the day how you feel. That would be my number one suggestion for somebody. Also go to therapy. You know, when you have this overwhelming desire or you start to notice, oh, okay, I guess my past really is showing up here.

[00:37:35] Christina: It's nothing you need to figure out on your own. All of these wounds that you've experienced were created relationally. So the idea. Of trying to navigate, bringing awareness, shifting patterns. The idea of doing that on your own makes no sense. You need to do it in relationship with other people. It can be a therapist, it can be a partner, it can be friends, it can be a group.

[00:37:56] Christina: There's lots of different ways that can happen, but I think [00:38:00] one tangible thing, aside from checking in with how you're feeling is also just meeting your own needs. What is one need that I have today that I can keep a promise to myself to meet? Hmm. It can be as simple as, okay, what do I need right now?

[00:38:17] Christina: Have I had a glass of water? I'm gonna do that this morning, 

[00:38:20] Jennifer: right? 

[00:38:21] Christina: Or I'm gonna start my morning off with a, a walk. 

[00:38:24] Jennifer: I could see how that just starts to rewire things a bit. 

[00:38:28] Christina: I think when we've experienced childhood trauma, the first thing we do is sacrifice our own needs, and in adulthood it becomes such a pattern that when someone says, what do you need?

[00:38:41] Christina: How are you feeling? A lot of us don't know the answer to that question. And to stop and ask is a really important gift that we can give ourselves to start to understand what those needs might look like. And I always say in small, seemingly [00:39:00] insignificant ways are the ways that we do that. I think sometimes we get confused or we think that change comes from these big decisions or these big actions, right?

[00:39:09] Christina: Like moving, ending a relationship, like having a child even. It's like, I'll be okay when getting a new job, quitting a job. It's just not the reality. The reality is, is these. Small, tangible actions that you do over time. These small, tiny promises that you keep to yourself, allow you to reengage with who you are before you had to self sacrifice.

[00:39:32] Jennifer: Yeah, because I, the saying that I always hear in the back of my head as well, is, um, wherever you go, there you are. 

[00:39:39] Christina: Oh, I love that. That just gives me goosey, that one. Yeah. I also just felt my whole body that Oh, right. Like, oh, I don't want that one. 

[00:39:47] Jennifer: I know, but I don't wanna listen to it. 

[00:39:50] Christina: Yeah, right. There's like a little angry part that comes up in me.

[00:39:53] Christina: It's like, oh, it just wants to roll her eyes, you know? But it's so true. 

[00:39:58] Jennifer: So just in [00:40:00] closing, we have a hashtag movement called Create Call Mental Health, and we're trying to create a library for people. Obviously. We all, once we get to this place where we realize we have the awareness and we're doing the work, and it's about our nervous system and rewiring our nervous system.

[00:40:16] Jennifer: So I'm sure you have many that you use, but if there is a tool from your toolbox that you'd like to share with us that helps you. 

[00:40:24] Christina: Yes, there instantly comes to mind. One of the emotion regulation tools that I often have clients engage in is creating a safe place or a calm place. Mm-hmm. We call it. 

[00:40:37] Jennifer: Okay.

[00:40:37] Christina: And really what that is, I slow clients down. I ask them to, if they're comfortable, close their eyes and imagine a real place or even an imagined place where there is feelings of calm and peace. We can't control a lot of what's happening in our external world, but we can control for the most part, [00:41:00] right?

[00:41:00] Christina: When, you know, when we're learning, we can create inner calm to alleviate some of the internal chaos that we might feel. Mm-hmm. So getting somebody to really imagine and go into a place real or imagined, um, that creates those feelings is a really important tool. So I would say something like, oh, let's close our eyes.

[00:41:21] Christina: What comes up for you when we think about creating calm and safety, you're protected from all the things that you once were not protected from. 

[00:41:29] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:30] Christina: Tell me what comes up. Maybe you're in a forest, maybe you're at the lake, you know, everybody's is different. Yep. Mine is always at the water, so I'm at the cottage, you know, and then it's really getting into how your senses all contribute to creating that space.

[00:41:45] Christina: So what do you see? What do you hear when you're there? Right? Is the rustling of the trees? Is it the waves crashing in? What smells are associated with that calm place? What are you feeling? Right? Is the hot sun on your face or is the [00:42:00] cold water on your toes? It really just is a sensory experience. The more we can bring it to life, the more we can create calm and we'll use bilateral stimulation in EMDR to really integrate that into our lived experience.

[00:42:16] Christina: So when I'm in chaos or when there's stress, did I use my calm place before this podcast? Yes, I did. I'm safe and I'm okay. I am doing something I've never done before. It makes sense that I'm scared. Can I go into my com place? Feel, you know, the water on my body, can I smell the, the lake? You know? Yeah. Or the grass, whatever it is.

[00:42:36] Christina: Yeah. Whatever you've cultivated for yourself. 

[00:42:38] Jennifer: Yeah. 

[00:42:38] Christina: This is a tool you can take with you wherever you go. 

[00:42:41] Jennifer: Yeah. I love that, like the visualization, but the sensory experience being in that visualization is what is that calming place for you? 

[00:42:49] Christina: I think the other piece to it too is recognizing like in our childhood we didn't have a lot of choice and control.

[00:42:56] Christina: Yeah. In our adulthood, we have more choice and [00:43:00] more control. It's just around honoring that. Now that we're in this place, we can reconnect with our authenticity a little more. Is it hard and scary? Yes. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:14] Jennifer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:15] Christina: Well, that's a beautiful way to 

[00:43:17] Jennifer: wrap things up. Thank you so much for being here today and for lending your voice to this podcast.

[00:43:23] Jennifer: We really appreciate you being here.

[00:43:25] Christina: Thank you so much for having me. I feel so accomplished after doing that today. The stress is just washing off my body. I'm gonna celebrate that I stepped outside my comfort zone. We 

[00:43:37] Jennifer: could take on the world. I love that feeling. 

[00:43:39] Christina: Right? Yeah. And I thank you for inviting me to come on.

[00:43:43] Christina: And just for the work that you're doing to bring awareness and conversation to mental health and to childhood trauma. This is a lot of what we do behind closed doors. And I would love to gather all my clients, bring them into one big room. Right. So they could just [00:44:00] see that, you know, you're not alone.

[00:44:02] Jennifer: Yeah. You 

[00:44:02] Christina: know, and there's. Solidarity in talking about this and understanding that we all have come from something right, and it shapes who we are. I love that this is the path that you're on. I think it's really wonderful for everybody to get a glimpse into some of your early life experience, but then have that reflect their own.

[00:44:24] Jennifer: Everybody has a different experience, but there are still themes and pieces that we all experience and obviously things in adulthood that we have to adjust and work through, and so we can see ourselves in other people's experiences, even if they're not identical. Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:39] Christina: Beautifully said. Gosh, is that just not a recipe for connection right there?

[00:44:46] Jennifer: Well, that was such a rich and layered conversation with Christina. I'm really so grateful for the way that she showed up with honesty and humility and compassion, weaving together her professional knowledge and her lived experience. [00:45:00] Those are the kinds of conversations that remind us that we're never alone as much as we think we are.

[00:45:05] Jennifer: There's a few key takeaways that I'm holding onto from today's exchange. The first is that the strategies we develop as children, so whether that's people pleasing or perfectionism or caretaking or hyper independence, they aren't weaknesses. They were survival skills, and they kept us safe during those moments.

[00:45:25] Jennifer: And as adults, the work is about recognizing those patterns with compassion and then slowly teaching ourselves new ways to be. And that reframe alone can take so much of the shame off of our shoulders. The second is about noticing. Christina said it so clearly. Notice, notice, notice. Check in with your body.

[00:45:46] Jennifer: What am I thinking? What am I feeling? Where do I feel it? We can't change what we don't see, but when we notice, we start to build a bridge back to our own nervous system. Those tiny check-ins are actually acts [00:46:00] of reconnection. The third is that healing doesn't require giant leaps. It's built from small promises that we keep to ourselves, like drinking a glass of water or going for a 10 minute walk or saying how we really are.

[00:46:13] Jennifer: Instead of, I'm fine. These may seem insignificant, but over time they rewire us towards safety and self-trust and authenticity. And finally, I loved Christina's reminder that we can create an inner calm place. Whether you imagine yourself at the lake, in the forest, in a cozy room, your senses can transport you.

[00:46:35] Jennifer: There. Visualizations become a portal refuge, something that you carry inside you, wherever you go. It's one of the simplest but most powerful ways to soothe a deregulated nervous system. So these conversations can stir up a lot. Grief, recognition, relief, but they can also offer hope because in sharing these stories and connecting the dots between the past and the [00:47:00] present, we get to choose differently for ourselves and for the next generation.

[00:47:04] Jennifer: And that's the heart of this podcast. Honoring the shadows, while finding ways to grow. So before we go. I just wanna invite you to join our hashtag Create Common Mental Health Movement. This is a space for sharing the creative ways that you care for your nervous system and bring stillness into your day.

[00:47:20] Jennifer: So this can be journaling or walking or dancing around the kitchen in the morning, or simply pausing. But share it with us and tag your post so that we can build a collective library of tools just to help everybody come back to themselves. And this conversation resonated with you. I would love to hear from you.

[00:47:39] Jennifer: You can connect with me through the show notes on social media or at our website, which is Triple W, Jen, JNN, St. John s tj, OHN, at.ca. Supporting the podcast by subscribing, sharing an episode, or leaving a review is obviously one of the best ways to help these conversations reach more people. If something difficult came up while listening, [00:48:00] please remember that you don't have to sit with it alone in Canada.

[00:48:03] Jennifer: You can call or text nine eight eight anytime for free, confidential mental health support. You can also reach out to your local CMHA. Ours is for Simco County. Uh, the crisis line is one triple 8 8, 9 3. 8 3, 3 3. Or you can text 6 8 6 8 6 8 and that will connect you with a trained volunteer through the Crisis text line in the us.

[00:48:27] Jennifer: The 9 8 8 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available 24 7. And for listeners in Australia, you can call Lifeline at thirteen eleven fourteen day or night for free and confidential crisis support. Thank you for listening and for holding space for stories like this and for being a part of the community.

[00:48:47] Jennifer: We'll be back next week with another conversation, but until then, take good care of yourselves and each other and keep finding ways to move forward.