Do Fruit Trees Need Pesticides? Rethinking Pest Control Naturally | With Matthew Priestley Artwork

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Gardening for Wellness & Joy: White Strawberries

Do Fruit Trees Need Pesticides? Rethinking Pest Control Naturally | With Matthew Priestley

April 09, 2026 • Samantha Penman • Episode 44

0:00 | 45:30

Start with Observation

I think it is really important to observe what problems you are seeing and make a note of that if you're seeing issues with the above ground. Portion of the tree. Those are usually the most obvious things that you can see. Perhaps discoloring of leaves or you can see damage from insects or the presence of, of pests such as aphids.

Uh, I think it's important from there to, to expand your view from just looking at the above ground portion to consider the soil as well. Uh, in my experience, most plant health issues start with the soil. If we have healthy, well-functioning soils, this often ticks the boxes for most pest and disease issues.

The problem is we are sitting with plants that are stressed because we've, we've tried to grow them in a suboptimal condition and then we are trying to fight that situation with all sorts of chemicals and, you know, trying to. Create a balance , where the system is already out balance and it keeps returning to that.

I think soil is absolutely foundational to plant health, and I think it's something that we commonly overlook, um, because it's below ground, it's not as obvious. The symptoms that we see on the tree are usually the triggers for us identifying a problem. But these are often related to soil conditions.

So if we find out what the issue is and then we ask the question, what's actually causing that problem? And quite often the answer is a poor soil condition like compaction or low biodiversity. There are a lot of things that the system needs for it to function well, but the aim for us is [00:08:00] to create a resilient system that needs fewer inputs rather than supporting a system that's already damaged and not functioning correctly.

So we've gotta go back to the basics and rebuild the soil system, in my opinion, in most situations.

Soil Observation and Testing at Home

Looking at our soil can happen before we plant trees. Ideally, but it can also happen while we've got trees. And then it can also happen we buy a property and someone else has planted trees 20 years ago and we've got a beautiful old apple tree that's suffering. Free steps that we can take into observing our soil before we put trees in? But also once the trees have grown.

You're on the money there. There are different scenarios that we do encounter often if we can. Intervene and make sure that , our soil is really healthy to begin with. That's gonna give our plants the best start. But as you mentioned, often we are looking at a retrospective situation where plants have been put into a system that may be not ideal for that particular species or fruit tree or, or other plant.

So we might need to look at what we can do. With the current situation to try and improve plant health going forward, and there are a lot of really basic free options that one can do to either evaluate soil or improve a soil that's already in poor condition. In terms of evaluating soils, you can.

Have a look at the soil and the root zone around your tree. The wider, wider area and root zones often extend further than you might imagine in the drip line of the canopy. Uh, so looking within that root zone, often disturbances can be a real problem. Tree roots are extremely sensitive to disturbance, like changes in soil level.

All of the feeder roots of the tree are really on the, on the top few centimeters of soil. So if we, if we disturb that area, we can create. Long term problems for the tree. Uh, so looking for any dis, you know, any disturbance that's happened or trying to avoid any disturbance in those root zones is really key for plant health.

That's things like even driving larger [00:10:00] machinery over tree root systems or over soils. You can look at your, at your soils during a really wet period and see how well the, the drainage of water is happening or how well the soils are draining, whether water is ponding in certain places in, in, in or around your root zone.

That can often be an indicator that there's some, um. There's some compaction present, although the soil's not draining properly, and your, the roots of the, of the tree may be sitting in quite wet conditions, which actually favor, uh, disease causing organisms like phytophthora and others that like to live in those sort of almost anaerobic conditions.

Um, so if our soils have a lot of air in them can drain well, generally we, we avoid a lot of, um, root disease issues. Um. Also in terms of evaluating our soils, uh, we can use some simple tools to evaluate compaction, even a, a screwdriver or a, or a pointed pole, um, that we can use to push into our soil just to feel if there's resistance there, because often we'll find a, a compaction layer that's sitting maybe 20 or 30 centimeters below the soil, and this can really prevent.

Roots from exploring deep enough and, and anchoring themselves properly in place. Uh, we do see this quite commonly in Auckland where we have heavy clay soils and after development or machinery and even compaction can form where there's just a grass layer and, you know, from ride-on mowers and even even rain can cause compaction layers.

Um, so once, once soil is damaged, it becomes a real tricky situation for a tree to grow in. Um, and, and there are many things that we can do without having to pay for a soil test. Uh, there are lots of home tests that we can do to, to try and evaluate the condition of our soil and whether there's the particular issue there.

Um, even just taking a handful of your soil and giving it a sniff, um, you can find out whether there's some unusual smells there. It should smell nice and healthy like a forest soil. Um, but if you're picking up something particularly pungent or maybe an [00:12:00] off smell that might be an indication of, of anaerobic conditions or something else in your soil that, that's leading to some problems with your plant health.

Some of the other things you can do is, uh, you can use a water, uh, just a water test where you use a jar or what's called the JAR test, I believe, where you put some soil into a jar and you can get some idea of the, the clay, salt sand components in your soil. That can just be useful for making some decisions about how you manage that soil.

For example, clay soils are incredibly prone to compaction and water logging. Whereas more sandier soils, they tend to be free draining, but often nutrients leach out of the system. So understanding your soil better can often bring the, the answers to the questions that you may have about your plant's health.

Fruit Trees in the Right Place

Thank you much food for thought there. I'm, I'm thinking about this JAR test, which I've done in the past, and just how helpful it is. When you first move onto a property, especially if it's a bear able to land, important if you've moved into a new development, but also for lifestyle blockers. And knowing how much clay do you have, how much sand you have, and what, what future problems are you gonna have planting your trees. But also what trees are gonna be happier in that section to start with, because trees have evolved all around the world and some. We'll be a lot happier with some clay,

others will be happier with compaction. And of course most trees, , are gonna do better with nutrient density. , And so just how helpful it is to do that prior to planting.

Mini Case Study: Wrong Tree in the Wrong Place, what to do

Okay, , if I was to use this example, Matthew, if you can bear with me and be my, my personal detective here, I have quite a healthy forest and have tried to. the right cultive in the right place. And something I've noticed that I've done by accident and by poor planning, , is put some of my stone fruit probably where my Mediterranean and my subtropical should have been. . So there's one stone fruit in particular [00:14:00] that this year had I think brown rot. And I was like, excuse me, I have a disease. How dare you? What's happening here? Um, and I had done is I had built such a biodiverse kind of plant growth in and around this tree that what I think is happening is that there was no air flow low. I think I had sort of created more of a subtropical guild, uh, with a, temperate tree. And, um. And as a res, as a result, you know, once I saw it, I thought, okay, I need to do now is cut back, make sure I keep the comfy down, cut back the dogwood, make sure that there's some airflow going through there. And I know we've had a really bizarre summer, uh, where it's been quite warm, but it's been really wet this summer. Would you agree with my diagnosis? Is there other things that I should be looking at? And then, and then I would love to then go on to talk about if I was to spray it, what to spray it with. Um, what are your thoughts?

So I think your diagnosis sounds to be very close to what the issue might be. Uh, airflow is often a common issue, particularly with stone fruits, as you mentioned, having quite a wet. Summer does tend to increase the, the propensity for fungal diseases. Uh, just that increased humidity. Fungus, love to have plenty of moisture around.

Um, so yes, if we have a wet season, it, it's quite possible, but that's created an issue. As you mentioned, when you're as a gardener, when you're designing a garden or a food forest, you, you, you're really learning as you go and as you, as your system changes with, with plant development, um, it's, it's easy to look back and with the beauty of hindsight and go and understand that plants should have been planted in a different position.

Um, I think those learnings are all really vital to. Your knowledge building as a gardener. And I think we can't really garden without making those mistakes and, and doing things wrong. I think it's some of the best, best ways for us to learn. [00:16:00] Um, but as you mentioned, perhaps that stone fruit is ending up in a little bit of a humid part of your food forest, where stone fruit tend to prefer lower humidity and extra chill hours, um, for a lot of fruit development.

So. Um, yeah. Again, design is so important in getting these systems right and you learning from your mistakes and going, okay, well, that might not be the ideal spot for a stone fruit. Is it workable at this stage? Can you do some things to improve airflow? Like you mentioned, pruning back some of the support plants to, to get that area flowing, airflow, working a little bit better.

Maybe looking at how air moves through the system. Are there some other plants or barriers there that are sort of reducing the air, the movement of air and, and trapping moisture in that particular part of the garden? And then there are some other options as well as in, you know, pruning your tree so that it can improve the airflow through the canopy.

But ultimately if it's, if the tree is continually struggling, even if you try and do those things, then you know, often you need to do a reset and, and just start again. You know, come to the realization that that tree's never really gonna thrive in that position and you're better off starting with something that is really gonna do well.

So I think developing a food forest or a garden is, is really part of that experimentation, seeing what's working, what isn't, and, and, and making changes to adapt to that.

I love, I love a few things that you've just said there. Um, the first thing that the system changes because that is so. On the money in this system. I mean, I'm in, I mean, it's a deep frost, uh, valley here. And the thought that I would have any sort of subtropical problems, even long term is quite mind blowing really. Um, and that's come from the system changing. There's a canopy now and there's bananas. I've got, my first banana flour came out yesterday and it was like. It was like I'd given birth to a child. Just like so exciting, unrealistically, thrilled that I've [00:18:00] created this environment where this banana tree would, you know, blossom. Um, who knows if I'll get bananas. We'll see. Um, so I really like how you said this, you know, the system changes and how true is that, that, you know, we often hear about succession planting in an annual garden bed, but also in a perennial bed and an orchard system of food forest. That succession planting is important because we, we are gonna have one system five years in, there's gonna be another system 10 years in as these trees develop and grow.

And the third thing that I liked, uh, it was just such a great reminder for me, was the airflow tunnel. And I'm thinking now where the stone fruit is. Um, it actually had prolific fruit, um, but just this brown spot, I, that was the thing I didn't like, but I've, it actually went to, it's got a dead end. The air, it's got a dead end air tunnel.

Um, and I didn't think to change that. So thank you. What a great reminder.

Pesticides and What to do Instead

So look, Matthew, if I was to spray, if I was to go right brown rot, it's, you, me, um, it's on go. How would I, how would I, there any ways that you would recommend in, in targeting that disease specifically? Is that bacteria, is it getting into. Leaf nodes. I've done quite a bit of reading around people spraying copper and that kind of thing, and I'm just not sure. That's a route I want to go down. I'd love to hear your opinion.

So in general, as I mentioned before, I'm not really a big fan of any of the pesticides, insecticides. I think they are often a convenient approach to deal with the symptom. Uh, the problem with using those chemicals is they often. Uh, have negative effects on non-target species. So you might be harming your pollinators, your other biology, and your soil life.

You may treat the symptom temporarily, but if you don't actually fix where the problem's coming from, that's just gonna keep recurring and you're gonna have to keep using the spray. And you kind of get stuck in this endless loop of just treating the symptom rather than addressing the [00:20:00] root cause. And, um, yeah, I think copper is widely applied in orchards as a, as a fungicide.

Um, again, it's, it affects non-target species, so it can have a really negative impact on your soil Fungi, which are absolutely. Critical to, to tree health, particularly for fruit trees. Uh, what we see in a lot of urban soils and soils that humans manage is that the fungal component has really been lost from a lot of those systems, or the soils are really lost, their fungal dominance, which is really what fruit trees and higher plants need to thrive.

If you look in a forest, for example, where we mentioned that system works really well, you'll find that those soils are really dominated by fungus. And that's really as a result of the interactions and the microrisal relationships with trees, but also because the forest naturally provides this duff layer, this, this humus layer that builds up on the, on the.

Forest floor from all the leaves dropping and the dead stems, you know, that builds soil. It provides food for the, the soil biology and the whole system interacts together to provide a healthy and resilient system. I think when we take those plants out of context, if we, for example, we plant a fruit tree in a, in a grass area, which you commonly see with sort of commercial and even backyard orchard.

The big problem there is we've got a bit of a mismatch in terms of our setting because the fruit tree loves to have a fungal dominated rich soil. Whereas grass perver prefers a disturbed system, uh, that's fairly low on that sort of soil development phase. The soils are often bacteria dominated, so that system tends to favor the grass rather than the tree.

And we end up with a lot of issues with tree health because we put that tree in a situation that doesn't really support it being healthy and resilient.

So you've mentioned mulch or you know, dead leaves, that are on the top of the [00:22:00] soil. Is that kind of, is that, what would you call it, mulch? Is that what you would say? If I was to try and build that up, would I be adding mulch? And then let me also ask you this. Should I then be adding bacteria?

Like if I've, sorry, fungi, if I've been, which I have been personally, but I know a lot of us will try and change from Kaku in particular and Edo, New Zealand. And then now we're gonna try and develop an orchard. Yes, I've gotten rid of the Kaku U, which many of us would quickly recognize that's something we have to do.

It's just depleting the soil, it's climbing up the tree, it's living its absolute best life. Any mulch we add that kaku is just scrambling upon. I've seen Kaku U scramble like on my four meter, you know, a high mulch pile. And I think, how did you get up there within weeks? Uh, it's just phenomenal being able to do that.

So first we need to eradicate that Kaku U. And then we add mulch. guess, is that what you're saying? And then secondly, how do we then get the fungi in there? Is that gonna be a natural thing that will happen naturally? Should I be going to my friend's house and getting some soil, um, to add that? Should I be purchasing some, how would I go about doing that?

Okay, so maybe I can take you to an example of a project that we're involved with for Auckland Council. Uh, they've got about 400 heritage fruit trees that, uh, are, are on the North Shore, just just north of Auckland. Uh, these trees have been neglected for a very long time. They've just been growing in a, in a grass area that's, that's now periodically mowed.

And a lot of the trees were showing some really. You know, symptoms of really poor health, uh, low vigor, um. Inconsistent growth. The fruit production was pretty inconsistent. The way with it, we started with this really a simple approach. Again, as you mentioned, Kaku is a real, a real problem in New Zealand.

Um, it is an invasive grass, but it, it, it is often the go-to grass for lawns because it is so robust and can handle almost any environmental conditions. But if you're trying to grow trees, KU ends up being the, the enemy. Um, [00:24:00] and uh, what we tend to do to control the KU is we, we use a technique called sheet mulching or lasagna layering.

Mulches, Kinds and Uses

So we'll use, uh, a layer of newspaper on top of the kaku within the root zone of the tree. Usually, you know, five to 10 sheets thick. We often wet the newspaper a little bit, so it's a bit like paper mache that we can apply to the soil level. Essentially what that does is it shades out the kaku, um, and prevents it from regrowing rapidly into your mul.

Um, it tends to kill the Kaku off, uh, quite effectively within the root zone. On top of that newspaper, we usually apply a thin layer of compost and super important to use a good quality compost that's biologically diverse. Um, on top of that compost, we then add a nice generous layer of mulch, maybe three to five centimeters.

Really what that helps to do is to start to shift that system in the right direction to support tree and soil health. Um, by eliminating the KU and adding mulch and compost, we, we fundamentally start to change the soil in the root zone of the tree. The compost serves to inoculate the system with beneficial microbes.

And then the mulch adds sort of an insulating layer that protects the system. It has a number of benefits. It, it helps to retain moisture within the soil, but as that woody matter breaks down, it also naturally encourages the beneficial fungi into the system that break down wood. Um, and it. As the, as the mulch is broken down, that slowly releases nutrients that feed not only the tree, but the biology and the soil to create a, a balanced ecosystem.

On, on the topic of mulches, there are a variety of different mules that can be used and not all mulch is the same. Uh, I tend, I generally tend to advise people to avoid mules that are dominated by conifers. For example, pines, cedar, uh, any of those species tend to create a mulch that supports a different set of.

Beneficial fungi and [00:26:00] microbes. If you look at conifer forests versus broadleaf forests, they have a fundamentally different mix of beneficial bacteria. So if you use a lot of pine mulch, you're gonna be attracting some beneficial organisms into the system, but they might not be the best ones matched to fruit tree.

Really you wanna use a mulch that's, uh, comes from the same sort of tree so that it attracts the right beneficial bacteria. Ideally, we'd use something like ramial mulch, which is actually finer trimmings that have been mulched. Usually nothing thicker than 50 mils. So it's sort of the shoot tips of your tree, as it were not big, chunky bits of wood.

Uh, and the main reason for that is to get the carbon nitrogen ratio. Optimal in your mulch. Uh, the chutes tend to have a higher, um, proportion of nitrogen in them to carbon so that you get a good balance that break down, that breaks down really quickly. It's much like making a compost pile. If you can get those ingredients right then, then the system really functions quite well and you get that nutrient cycling happening happening in the soil, um, where that organic matter is broken down efficiently and can, can feed your soil life in your tree.

I understand maybe why I wouldn't use Pine 'cause I'm not trying to grow pine in my orchard, but what other trees could I use in a third forest orchard setting, um, that aren't actually those specific trees themselves?

So you don't necessarily need to use the same species. Um, you just wanna avoid mules that are made up mostly of pine or or conifer species. You will find those mulch mules quite readily available in New Zealand because there's such a big pine forestry industry here. Um, really. Quite often, um, you'll have urban tree surgeons, um, that produce mulch from their operations Quite often those mulches are, are really well balanced and good to use 'cause they come from hedge trimmings, um, various pruning operations, which [00:28:00] is sort of a mixture of ramial mulch and other mules, even mules from palm or bamboo.

That sort of thing can, can really be beneficial to your system. You can have some pine mulch in the system, but ideally less than 20% of your overall mulch. Uh, so some of the best places to get mulch are are local arborists. And you know, if you can say to them, look, I just don't want mulch that's full of conifer.

If you've got anything else, then, then that would be preferable. If you do have pure pine mulch, you can actually mix that with other things, um, to, to improve that. Or, or really just let the pine mulch age for a very long time so that it, a lot of the stuff is broken down and, and is quite usable. Um, one of the keys as well is you, you, if you design your system really well, you might not need to bring in a lot of mulch into your system.

If you're growing a lot of support plants like your com you mentioned, and even when you're pruning your fruit trees, um, you can chop those bits up a little bit finer with your secretaries and use quite a rough mulch that you're creating from all your prunings and bits that you cut back. It's not necessary to mulch them.

It can be a tidier finish. Some people prefer that and. With it being mulched up, it just means that that organic matter breaks down more readily and and more quickly. But it's not necessary. You can have bigger, chunky bits that break down slowly. It's good to have a, a variety of sort of textures and particle sizes, um, that gives sort of a long term slow release to, to your system.

And I would say any mulch is better than no mulch. Even if, if, if you have some con of a mulch that's preferable to just grass or bare soil, um, which can create real issues. So if, if you have access to nothing else, then pine is better than nothing.

Hmm. I am sort of seeing a, a spectrum here of, you know, what we don't want is the kaku growing up our trees, you know, on one end of the spectrum, uh, we can get rid of that and mulch that's, that's good. If we can [00:30:00] then mulch with non conifers, that's good. And make sure we get that carbon and that nitrogen ratio.

Right. If we can also add some compost, like you said, that's fantastic. And then. Creme de la creme. I mean, I'm sure many of us would like a closed loop system where we are chopping support trees, we're chopping down, we're pruning or whatever, and we're just chopping it and dropping it. Right, right.

Where it needs to be. Um, and, and then we've, we've kind of got a, a closed loop system, um, which would be, which the greats of the greats would have, and many of us still are still getting, getting stuff in.

Folliar Sprays

Hey, so look, um. I've taken so many notes, so many reminders. I still wanna hear about what you spray. What do you spray on your trees? Because I've seen images online of you with a big backpack and a spray gun. So what are you spraying and why are you spraying that?

Okay, so, um, really we use foliar sprays to support a system that's recovering. I think it's really important to understand that the, the types of foliar sprays that I'm gonna discuss, they really support a system that's in recovery. We, we don't want to use. Foliar sprays is a silver bullet for any particular issue.

It's really one tool in the toolbox that we can use to help the system to recover. Uh, so some of the sprays that, that, that we use, and, and I must stress that these are foliar sprays, so they're, they're organic, um, amendments that we use. They're not anything that's toxic, toxic chemical or, or synthesized in a lab.

Uh, they tend to be natural products. Um. So we use foliar sprays, um, to support plants selectively as part of a broader biological approach. Um, uh, I don't see them as a substitute for fixing the underlying soil system. I think that's really where we need to start. They can be used as of as a tool to support that recovery.

Um, so the products that we use include, um, [00:32:00] uh. Biotech, uh, biologics Hor Failure Protect, um, which is a mixture of beneficial soil and plant fungi and bacteria. It also uses some different species of kelp to, to provide a full spectrum of nutrients, micro and macro that the plant needs. Um. And, uh, some of the other things that we use include, uh, hydro hydrolyzed, uh, fish.

So we use a product from BioMarins that is really fish, uh, product from the fish industry that's been hydrolyzed. It's broken down and really that's, uh, serves as nutrients for the soil biology. It, it's really good at promoting fungi in the soil. Other things that we, we tend to use, uh, occasionally are, um, humic and vic acids, just depending on the context.

Um, those can help with nutrient delivery and they can also help plant growth as well as biological growth in your soil. Uh, another. Product that we use occasionally is wood vinegar. Um, it's something people may not have come across before, but it, it's a byproduct of, um, the biochar production process where wood is paralyzed and you get a charcoal essentially.

That's really great for using in the soil as well. Um, but. As, as the, as the child's being produced, um, the organic acids and the water that comes off the wood as it's being heated is then condensed into a liquid form that contains ketones, aldehydes acids, all sorts of things. Um, you can use that in a very dilute form that can deter pests and actually deal with some of your pests and.

Problems. Um, quite often we'll mix that in, in a, in a, in a very low, um, dilution. A very high dilution, sorry, with, with some of our mixes, if there's actually a pest or disease issue that we identify. Um, those are really the, the three main ingredients, uh, that we tend to use. A lot of those products also include some IC and fol [00:34:00] vic acids, and, um, that mixture together really can give plant health.

Quite a boost, um, while your soil system is, is in recovery. So it, it's really just helping to support plant health. While we look at actually rebuilding the soil function and wind spraying, we tend to target earlier in the season. It's really good as trees are just starting to grow in spring to, to do an application maybe once every three or four weeks for the, for the first.

Three to four months of the growing season, just as they, they're kicking into their full growth for the season. It can also be really useful to apply at the end of season, um, the Folio Protect. Product that I mentioned actually can really help with, uh, frost tolerance because the, the microbes that are added to the system actually outcompete the ice nucleating bacteria, which is how frost often forms on plants.

Um, it forms around a bacterial cell. Um, so having those bacteria out competed on plant mean creates a, a lot of frost resistance. Um, that particular product really helps down to about minus five with frost protection. Um. And yeah, those are the main, um, the main ingredients that we use with our foliar sprays.

When we are using these biological sprays that have nutrition in them, we really target the underside of the leaves in trees because that's where the breathing pores or the stamato are mostly on the leaf of a tree, and it allows the tree to directly absorb and use that.

Um, nutrient very effectively. It also allows us to bypass any soil limitations like pH um, or nutrient lockup. Often if your pH is offering your soil, you can apply as much of that nutrient to the soil as you want, but it won't be in. Becoming, become available to the plant because there, there may be a pH issue or an imbalance in your soil or nutrients are locked up because there's again, another imbalance, say between magnesium and calcium or something in your [00:36:00] soils, not allowing that nutrient to become available to the plant.

So by spraying that directly onto the leaves, we bypass any soil system issues and allow that to, to be used by the plant directly. It's also really important for plant health that most of a plant's, um, external surface, like humans should be covered by microbes. If there's a lack of microbes there, it creates a foothold for disease causing microbes to get into the system.

But if the plant's really covered in microbes, they don't allow those things to get a foothold. They outcompete them for nutrients and for space. Um, so really. Supporting our plants with some nutrition from kelp and covering them with beneficial fungi and bacteria can, can really help deter any issues we might have from pest or diseases.

Wow. I never thought about that before, that the plants have microbes on them. I mean, of course they do. I've just never thought about it from that perspective. Um. And I've sort of been a little bit, I, I've been hesitant to, through any sort of foliar spray. felt that it's been a lot of work. Um, and I've thought, oh, I'm just such a low input sort of gardener.

I'd much rather get the soil sorted. now listening to you, I'm thinking actually, especially if, if a tree is, if you are building the soil up, but it's not quite where it needs to be so far, like you said, in recovery. I'm just thinking now, there's so many places in which that probably would benefit.

Well, I know that that would then would benefit my plants. When I think about my own skin, as a human, I mean, I only use organic zinc sunscreen. So I'm aware that the skin barrier a thing in humans, and of course it is. Um, and trees. So, so I like, I like what you said about, foliar spray, being able to support microbes. I like how you said it's allowing you to bypass maybe some of those problems in the [00:38:00] soil. And some of those are very easy to test, like pH if it's water logged, I'm assuming it's taking a lot less nutrients. The calcium to magnesium, that, that's probably a little bit more technical, i'm assuming that's a soil test. and then I also liked how you touched on actually being able to protect the tree from Frosts, which is interesting to me because many of us are trying to push the limits with what we can grow on our space, especially , with the subtropical.

Supporting the System's Resilience

Yeah, absolutely. I think foliar sprays are really important in the, in the support for a system that's developing and where you're repairing soil health. Ultimately, again, as you mentioned, a lot of people are working right on the margins with where a plant might actually be able to live and thrive, and.

Really when you're supporting the system with things like foliar sprays, you're also building resilience. So it's for those extreme situations where you might have a, you know, a really bad frost out of the blue, you know, that might really damage some of your plants. That's how I can really support it for some of those really challenging times.

But I fully agree with you. I think the place to start is building soil health. Ideally, we'd get to the place where we have a really healthy soil and a really healthy plant, and we wouldn't need to fo spray at all. Uh, that's the key for me is that we, we, we should see ourselves as ecological engineers and we should really try to work with the system to work with nature rather than trying to fight the symptoms that we see with, with toxic chemicals.

I think it's important to understand that the symptoms that we see, and even like the plants that we see, for example, if your system's dominated by kaku. It's clearly telling you that there's some poor soil there. Uh, your plants are not developed enough to shade out the kaku. It's, it's incredibly intolerant of shade.

So as soon as your plants get up and over it, Kaku ceases to be a problem. And if we start to change the soil so that we bring those beneficial fungi in Kaku is not gonna be happy in that system. It doesn't [00:40:00] suit it. It starts to suit our fruit tree more than the grass. So we don't have to battle the grass constantly.

We're actually supporting growth in health of our fruit tree, which, which by by nature eliminates ew and other weed species.

So good, so good. Okay, we've, we've dealt with our soil, like you said. We're actually looking at what is the problem. So we, we are going into our, into our space, and there's something that we don't like. What is it that we don't like about it? And if it is the fact that there's lots of the aphids are up every stem. Why, why are they there? Um, what is it about that tree that is unable to protect itself against those aphids? Or it's calling to the aphids, and then we, then we can, you mentioned a whole bunch of like. Easy ways to observe our soil. Um, like is it waterlogged, is it smelly?

, What soil do we have in, in the JAR test? And then after that, we've, we are starting to recover that soil. We're trying to make sure that it's nutrient dense, it's got a mulch, um, layer and that type of thing. Thank you so much for like, walking me through what a foliar spray does. I, I feel that there is a space for that in my own world now, and I'm gonna be thinking a little bit more on that.

Need help.

If someone needs help with this, like if this feels very overwhelming, if they have bought a property and they, you know, and maybe they brought it because of this beautiful ancient apple tree and, and now they're realizing actually the apple tree's half dead and, you know, what do they do about it? If someone wants to learn more about what you've said or contact you directly, how would they do that?

So the best place to find us would be our websites. We www.brotherwood.co.nz, and you can also find us on our social media channels. Instagram and Facebook are usually the best places. Uh, otherwise get in touch with me, um, via our website. Send me an email and, uh, happy to discuss any issues people might be having and, and give them some tips to, to support system recovery.

Fantastic.

I think the, the key message for me is to broaden your [00:42:00] view from just looking at the tree or the plant that you might see the issue, look at the wider environment, see it in its context that this is actually a, a biological system. And is that system functioning as. As best as it can, and what are the things that we can do to support system function rather than nuking or poisoning, destroying things that we don't like or we see as a problem.

I think those are clearly trying to communicate to us what the issues are with the system, with the overall system functioning, and if we can. Do some simple things that start to shift the system in the right direction. It's quite amazing how nature has this natural healing mechanism where it just starts to regenerate itself.

You give the soil a plant half a chance to thrive. If we do the right targeted things, you can see incredible results from some really simple changes in terms of how we manage our soils and and our wider environment.

I agree. I agree. That has been my experience. They, they wanna live trees, wanna live, they wanna thrive. The system wants to find a balance. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Thank you so much for coming on and talking. I've learned so much and that's brilliant. Yeah.

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to have the conversation with you. My dream is really to. Restore soil health, one square meter at a time. That's really where my passion lies. So, you know, I'm really interested in, in fungi and soil biology in general.

Um, I've grown a lot of edible mushrooms in the past and, and done some of the laham soil food web training. Um, and you know, I've studied, botany and microbiology. So really for me, the key to a lot of our issues, not only, you know, individual plant health, but wider ecosystem and human health is, is repairing the soils.

You know, not only that, but you know, it's a. It's a great tool for combating climate change because a lot of the issues we are having are, because carbon has been released from our soils that a healthy soil should have at [00:44:00] least 5% carbon, but most of the soils we see are at one or 2%. So if we support the biological function of those systems, the fungi and the beneficials can rebuild the swir and actually.

Build carbon into the soil over time and you know, I think that's a, a great strategy for us to, to repair some of the damage that we've done and start getting the system, you know, oriented in the right direction.

Yeah, only, only good things can happen putting carbon into the soil and rebuilding our soil. Only. Good things. No bad things.

Absolutely.

Oh, I loved this episode. I'm so excited about supporting my Peachtree in this next season and opening up a wind tunnel where she is.

I'm also thinking about how much my system will change as my trees get bigger and feel. This episode has more nuanced wisdom about the health of my trees and my soil. If you've enjoyed this episode, can you please jump into your podcast app now and rate and review. Heck, while you're at it, send me a question for the podcast or send me some feedback.

Catch me at White Strawberries podcast.com or White Strawberries podcast on socials. May your strawberries be white and you'll soil full of carbon.