The Business of Knowing: Rethinking Knowing at Work

In this episode, the second in the series The Myth of Knowing, I talk with Dana Calder, a queer neurodivergent SVP in the fintech world, about what it means to “know” in the workplace. Work culture often treats knowing as currency—a sign of belonging, authority, and success. But what happens when certainty is a mask, and perfectionism becomes a survival strategy?

Dana shares her journey of discovering she’s autistic later in life, reflecting on years of over-preparing, masking, and striving to avoid mistakes. Together, we explore the hidden costs of “knowing at work,” the limits of binary thinking, and the different possibilities that come from leading, working, and living with curiosity instead of certainty.

We challenge the dominant narrative that equates competence with achievement, showing that curiosity, slowing the pace, and cultivating “other joy” is not just valid- it’s a radical act of self-knowledge and resistance in a system that claims to rewards overwork and perfectionism. This episode flips the idea of success from achievement and knowing to wonder, self-trust, and discovering joy in unexpected places.

Neuroqueering Addiction, Sobriety, and Recovery Class Info

Transcript

Amy Parrish (00:42)
Hey y'all, welcome back. Today, I'm joined by Dana Calder, a queer neurodivergent SVP in the fintech world whose career has spanned a wide variety of roles and industries, giving her a front row seat to the many ways workplaces reward or punish what we think of as knowing. Dana is also a dear friend, a running buddy, and someone I've had many conversations with about.

identity, belonging, and work. Her recent discovery that she's autistic and reconnecting with her giftedness is reshaping how she understands her own story. She brings humor, honesty, and a deep belief in the power of I don't know,

as both a leadership practice and an act of rebellion. Together, we navigate the business of knowing, finding our way to other joy in work, in life, and in ourselves. Here's our conversation.

Amy Parrish (01:48)
It's been a while since I've done this. yeah. just tell me like, when you think about the myth of knowing at work about good workers know, bad workers don't. what does that mean to you?

Dana Calder (01:50)
I'm excited.

I think when I think about the myth of good workers knowing and bad workers not knowing, I've never felt like I've known. Like I've never known. I still remember, I thinking about this, I remember my first job I went after. And the first job I went after was really because I love Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Like love that movie.

I've seen it hundreds of times. I love Gene Wilder. I love his portrayal of the world he creates. It's his world. And he's inviting the children in and he even teaches them rules of like how you can exist in his world while he's looking for who am I going to give this to next? And I remember looking for a job in the Florida mall because I was

15, I was like, I'm going to be a grownup. I'm going to get a job. I'm to have my own money. And I saw Godiva just sitting there. And I just remember like staring, like it's, it's all coming together. It's everything I wanted. I can be like, I can be like Willy Wonka. I can work in a chocolate store. And I remember filling out the application. So excited, so enthusiastic, not understanding you're 15.

This is Godiva. And walking in, the assistant manager looking me up and down like, what the hell? And I was like in earnest, like had my application. I had other applications all over Florida mall, but looked at him and was handing it over to him. And I could just kind of see the hesitation.

And I knew it was this moment. he's probably not gonna give me a chance. He's just staring at me like, she has no idea what she's doing. And I looked at him and I remember saying, I love Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. My whole dream has always been to work in a chocolate store. And when I saw Godiva and I saw your chocolates and how exquisite this store is,

and how it's all lined up perfectly. I know I'm meant to be here. I will listen to you. I will work hard. I will learn all the things. I'm very responsible. I can be here on time after school. Like I just went on and on and he just kind of stared and then he kind of smiled and he said, okay. And I thought, please, please call me back. And I remember leaving going, I done everything that I know my mom and aunt would have told me to do.

Like I tell him you want it and I told him I want it. And I remember getting a call back and I was just like, my God. And then Amy, I proceeded to work there for seven years, learning all the things. Learning all the things about sales, chocolate, ⁓ melting chocolate, tempering it to the right temperature. They moved locations in the mall to a more beautiful big store. I became a key holder.

⁓ I'd come back during college summers and I'd work there and it was everything I wanted it to be. I loved it so much. I even told my mom, was like, this is what I want to do. I found it. I found it early. And she just stared, she's like, you're going to work in the mall your whole life? And I thought, well, I hadn't thought about it that way. And I think it's someone else's knowing.

or what they think your journey should look like that influences it. Where all of sudden I looked at it a different way like, ⁓ is this not a grownup job? But all the people I worked with at Godiva were in their 20s and 30s. But that lens coming in made me question and go, ⁓ this doesn't fit into the path of going to college and getting whatever an adult job looks like.

But when I tell you I had the most fun, I had the most fun and I bring that out oftentimes, like other jobs I've been in, I've dipped chocolate and brought it in, found ways to weave in that knowing that skill that I learned where I had so much joy in the work. ⁓ So then when I think about people's knowing and unknowing, I think it's like a reallowing people to be curious.

to do something different, be bold, say things differently.

Amy Parrish (06:45)
It's

interesting to me because when you started, you didn't know what you were doing. And so you just were like, I'm just going to throw it out there. I just love chocolate. I love Willy Wonka. I love chocolate. Just give me the job. you didn't know what you were supposed to do or say, but you knew what you wanted to say.

and it got you the job. And then I also think it's interesting how that was enough until somebody else's lens was like, but that's not actually like working at the mall. That's not

the fixed version of success. So where did that take you?

Dana Calder (07:29)
Well, I'm always quirky with work. It is always off of like, I don't know. I think my past employers were like, really? That's how you pick us. But it will be off of like an impulse thought of I could use a new pair of glasses.

And sure, they sure are expensive at full price. I can't do that. ⁓ this optical shop's looking for part-time salesperson. And then chatting with them, they're like, ⁓ and you get, it's like a sales job. I was like, I've had a sales job before. They're like, yeah, and you get commission. I was like, what's commission? So they explain it to me. And I'm like, wow, that's more than hourly. Yeah, it's up to just how you're able to connect people.

our customers with the right product, more product. And I was like, Ooh, I'm good at talking endlessly. I was like, this, could be good. Plus I get a discount. And so that's how I picked the next one. knew nothing. I knew nothing about opticianry. I didn't know anything about reading glasses prescription. ⁓ but they had such a detailed training program.

And they were completely fine with me asking questions, endless questions. I'm very curious and I will ask endless questions. And everyone that I worked with was really good about just answering the questions. ⁓ It was, it was a very much a learning environment. And even when I got into leadership for that optical company, we were taught to welcome curiosity and to teach. And

And so we always did that because if you didn't get it exact, this was someone's prescription. So you're in an environment that encouraged not knowing and getting to knowing. And the one thing that they didn't really teach us like how to get really good at sales. And I remember meeting someone who was magnificent at it. And I just couldn't understand how she did it. And I just asked her, how do you,

do you interpret the prescription and then weave it into this giant sale?" And she said, come let me tell you, let me show you. And she would give me tips after a sale like, no that was good, but do do this way. And it was amazing, such direct feedback. It was everything. And so I've just always gone through my career thinking about how that was great for me.

this thing I didn't understand and how to translate that for other people to helping them understand their world or where they're trying to go better. And I know this from where it worked now where they'll tell me that's really unique. Not everyone thinks to do it that way. And my thought is why not? Why not? Why do we make this unknown? Why?

Is there such a power dynamic with being like, know, and I'm going to hold this close. And now you're to have to work to figure it out on your own rather than being explicit. I just don't get it.

Amy Parrish (10:52)
Yeah, it's so confusing.

The thing that stands out to me is that being direct, showing up and seeing this person who is amazing at selling and being like, wait, ⁓ I want to be great at that. Will you tell me? Will you tell me what you do? And then instead of being in a sense of competition,

where that person is gonna guard their secrets closely and not let you be successful too. She just was like, yeah, watch this. And then I'm gonna tell you directly what you're doing right, what you're doing wrong, so you could learn.

It's, it seems like, and I have not, I've worked at Whole Foods for like four years in a very like low key capacity. So I haven't been part of the corporate world, but I have coached a lot of people who are in the corporate world. And the thing that stands out to me is that the directness that just doesn't happen.

And I wonder how that risk of being direct.

plays into the way that we behave at work.

Dana Calder (12:22)
I think about it now with the role I'm in as head of HR for a fintech company, it gives me the opportunity to think about the environment we're creating.

I don't know, it goes back to Willy Wonka again. It's like, when you're at that level, you get to create the environment. You are welcoming people in. You're taking the opportunity based off of an interview process to say, we think you'll, you'll thrive here. I take that very seriously. Someone decided to join this organization. We made a commitment.

And when I joined that environment,

were very clear like this can be very difficult to learn and they're very open about it and very open about educating and learning. goal there was always being willing to help people learn and grow and fostering that curiosity, making sure that they can communicate openly without judgment, that they can get their questions answered.

and to feel safe enough to come and say, don't know, and I've asked, and I still don't get it. I go, okay, how can we be better? I've been at other organizations that sat me down with a really great training program, and I learned. And then I could follow up with asking questions. People answer the questions. I think lots of organizations have done this really well.

and they stand out as being really good at their work, people wanting to work there. And so guess I never take it as a, we're good, we're great. It's the employee's problem. No, I think it's our problem. I'm always looking like, how can we be better? How can we create a better environment? How can we make sure someone doesn't get sucked into the chocolate river and up a tube?

Amy Parrish (14:24)
where does curiosity go wrong? where does that thread get lost?

Dana Calder (14:31)
I think where curiosity goes wrong is I'm inviting you into the environment. I'm laying it out of what it looks like trying to help you learn. Leaders and your team members are trying to help you learn. I think how you get stuck in that chocolate river and tube is like you have so much ego and you think you know more than the people teaching you that there isn't this curiosity. It's more of an ego of showing I know.

You're like, ⁓ I hear you. I want you to be confident, but there's some gaps that we're trying to help you fill. And so your definitive knowing rather than some humility, I don't know, I want to learn, that becomes this barrier.

But I also think of people who are vulnerable enough to say, don't know, and are maybe met with, you should know.

You should know by this point. But what is this point? What is this point that they should know? And have you been clear in your communication in terms of expectations? and I think when I think from a lens now of knowing I'm neurodivergent, that I'm autistic, I've always sought to make things clear.

Amy Parrish (15:35)
Yeah.

Dana Calder (15:57)
or get direct feedback. So I think that's the lens I was always operating from and didn't even realize that.

I can see where it gets muddy and I'm looking for clarity for myself and being able to be in the position I am in leadership position, I can help construct the system to help others get this clarity that I also know helps you thrive. And so I'm oftentimes saying, that's not clear. What did you say? Play back to me that conversation. No, I could see where there was no clarity.

How about if you say it this way? How about if you teach it this way? And so I want to take the onus off of that individual who's in this situation, maybe with their leader or peer where they're like, I've tried and tried and tried to ask for clarity and I haven't gotten it. It has a leader step up and go, let me see how we can make it better. Create that level of clarity so that you are comfortable and thriving.

Amy Parrish (17:02)
Well, and it's interesting because what I thought of was when you go into the interview process, you have to look like you know what you're doing because otherwise you're probably not going to get the job. And you start out that way. And so then that's the foot you start

And so you keep acting like you know how to work in a place when you've never worked there before.

And so maybe there is someone like you who's like, see that you're not really understanding. Let's make this more clear. But the culture is not supporting that as a way of doing things, as a way of...

slowing down like ⁓ wait let's pause here because the pace is so relentless

I think of you as like a cycle breaker in the corporate world, Where you're trying to change the unhealthy patterns and, bad habits of the culture.

And so you have a person who is like wanting to be successful and you have a company that wants them to be successful.

How do you carry that together? Like I guess what I'm asking is when you think about the system as it is now and then making a new system, what would you do?

Dana Calder (19:03)
when I think about it, There are components of that system that I want to stay. And then there are other aspects of it that I want to see it evolve. So I guess I don't think of it in binaries of good and bad. I think because early in my career,

when I sold products, when I sold other technical technology products, I would get so stuck in the deficiencies of the product. Like this is holding me back from selling this product. You all need to fix these things. I can't sell it because these things are broken with this product. And it took a lot of different leaders to help me break through if they're like, no product is without imperfections.

And I remember...

This early in my career was hot to trot like you couldn't tell me anything. I was still like so forcefully upset. Like that is not a good answer. That doesn't work. ⁓ and it would be this mindset that would get me so focused. And it wasn't until I joined this organization and had another leader or another peer as he was training me, tell me it's not perfect. Here's what works. What doesn't work. And I was still set on

but we got to fix these things But I've been here now seven years and while I'm not selling the product anymore, I still look back and I smile like some of the customers that I was so worried would leave are still here, still here using the product

But I think the noise in my head of like, they will not stay because XYZ is not here. That was my fear, like an intense fear for me.

And so when I think about culture and I think about scaling it, what has taken me a couple of years to not focus so much on were some of the voices within the organization that were so frustrated with very specific areas that we needed to fix. I'm not saying it's not important, but if I spend all of my time thinking about that specific area of what's not working for people,

it brought me so far down that I couldn't focus on scaling and making things better.

I think the thing that helps leaders and the builders focus is like,

Don't focus so much on where you're trying to go in four or five years. Focus on the immediate things that you can fix. Take a breath or two or three because the fact that you're trying and the fact that you're trying to move it forward,

take a little of that pressure off because when you look back and I found every time I look back, I'm generally happy and I have enough data to now think about, okay, what does the next momentum look like?

And I think with the communication I try to have with employees, they understand like, I want to hear your feedback. I'm going to tell you what we can and can't do with context, which I think is very important. Give people context. Don't just say no. Well, why? Why won't you do that thing? Give context.

Maybe not this year, maybe next year. ⁓ And then continue looking at that feedback and pulling in what you can within your program to enhance and make it better. And so that's what I think about. It's hard for me to think from the lens of just good culture, bad culture. I think it's, there are aspects that work, aspects that don't, and we're constantly trying to make it better.

Amy Parrish (23:05)
It's totally, I mean, it's totally the, ⁓ actually like upholding the myth of knowing when you get into that binary of, it's good, it's bad. Like both and, both and all the time.

and it just makes me wonder about.

how that perfection plays in. I also was thinking about because you're gifted also, how the intensity of perfectionism can actually be something that's good, that really is, drives you and drives you forward. And to be able to be in that intensity is what makes you successful.

And I love that you brought context in because in a culture of knowing, there's so much assumption.

And I wonder what you think about that.

Dana Calder (24:09)
yeah, I think even when we've had leadership changes before I changed my roles within this organization, and we had new leaders coming in, ⁓ and they were making decisions, and I think in earnest, just trying to make the organization better, ⁓ but without the historical view.

And I found myself giving history lessons like, ⁓ I understand where you're coming from related to wanting to make this change. But let me give you a little history of why we communicate the way we do and what that looks like. And if you change in this dramatic change, what it shuts down in terms of collaboration. And I think that leader just stared like, who are you? Who are you to tell me?

I'm your leader. But thus far in this organization, we had the environment as a startup. And I just think from our founders that we could ask questions respectfully. Mutual respect is a value. So in my mind, mutual respect works both ways. Not just me giving respect, but you as a leader also giving me respect. And our leaders up to that point have always done that.

And so I never felt a leader plus their ego of, how dare, how dare you question my authority. I think I just stared confounded like, what's happening? You're stuck somewhere.

where you're not open to feedback. Like I don't understand. Yes, I'm an individual contributor, but there have been moments and points in my career where I've been a leader. And this to me was like, this is not how leaders work. You can't be that closed. You can't be driven by ego. You can't decide now you're going to shut down and not talk to me because you don't like that I gave you feedback. And I mean, probably, this is where sometimes,

my friends are being like, you need to stop. You're going to get yourself in trouble. Like you need to just be quiet. I don't know how to be quiet. I just do not know how to be quiet. And so I gave space to that person and they came back and they wanted to share with the team and a very written like shut this communication down type of way. And I just stared at it and I just thought, okay, let me figure how it would answer.

a customer who's upset while still giving information, making my point. And I was like, I feel like this is a tipping point for the organization. If I let this ride, this could mean we start to make momentous shifts, I think, in a way that we all would not want to see for our culture. And so me not knowing, sometimes wanting to be quiet was like, I'm going to tell you.

I'm going to give you history lesson. And in my written response, it was more of a, this is what was established from our founders. This is the why. Probably very detailed wall of text where he's just like, my goodness. But he wasn't hearing it. I worried, what did that mean for the team who was quiet and trying to figure? And I think what I know to be and what my boss has told me is he's given me feedback the way

I can package it together, helps move people forward without feeling threatened. Now I knew I had to be very careful with this message because I already threatened this person, but I refused to see the culture shift with one leader in such a significant way, which I knew we were at this moment. So I said my thing. And it would be the ripple effect where

my boss would reach out and say, I do think you're in the wrong seat. You should be heading up HR. You should be helping me think about how we scale the culture. And it was his recognition, his willingness to risk with someone who's an unknown. I don't have an HR background, but willing to invest, support me, make sure I have the right resources, step in and scale our culture. And I think it really is.

up to a lot of head of people and CEOs and executive leaders to think about what are we saying we want the culture to look like? What's acceptable, what's not acceptable? And to be accountable when we have missteps of, you know what? I hear you, we're working on it. And not to gaslight people to be like, no, that's not happening. Your experience, no, no, no. That's the worst thing you can do.

Just own it. Just own it. It's not going to be perfect. And tell people that we're going through growth. We're going through scale. Yes, I'm working on it. And yes, maybe there's going to be points even for me as a leader where I get it wrong, where you're like, I don't even want to talk to you right now because you're getting it wrong. You know what? People are allowed to have their reactions be frustrated, but what you can't do is gaslight them and be like, it's fine. That's when you f-

Frustrate people so badly that they're like I give up. I There's no point in giving you feedback because you're doing nothing with it

Amy Parrish (29:45)
Yeah, and my gosh like authority has never made sense to me, but it is just wild to me how being in a position of authority is Like another way that the myth of knowing is just like well this person is at this level and so you don't question them

And I imagine like you telling that story is just like, of course. Like, of course, if you're pushing in and not, not afraid of any conflict or tension, but being willing to be.

in conflict and tension because that's what ideas and success are made of. It's not again the binary good bad it's not all smooth sailing to the like of the year there's a lot of texture along the way but not being

able to question the people in authority.

means that there's information that's missed.

And it's fascinating to me that we're in these like, we're all adults, what is disrespect? Is disrespect questioning? Is disrespect having a look on your face during a meeting? Like is disrespect questioning a leader in a room full of people?

What if that was actually the way it was supposed to be?

if it's not an accusation, like, you don't know what you're doing, but more of a collaboration.

And I wonder what it's like, what's it like for you if somebody questions you?

Dana Calder (31:56)
So I've had it in a couple different ways, Amy, just like when I was thinking about what you shared related to, is an accusation, is it collaborative? I think when it's collaborative, it is mentioning the specific situation, a recognition of what I've tried to put in place in terms of assuming positive intent, and then letting me know the impact of what didn't work.

I can get that it's very hard to do that with an executive leader. You're looking at me, you're going, there's this power dynamic, I can't do that.

or maybe you are newer to the organization. So you haven't been here for the history of my change from an individual contributor to a leader. So it doesn't feel safe. And so I know there's work for me to do on my end to build safety of spending time during onboarding or doing trainings with that team, ⁓ spending time during our in-person all hands to try to build a connection and build a bridge because I am very aware there's a different power dynamic.

And I'm not expecting everyone to have that level of comfortability or push forward like I do to question. And now I know it comes from a neurodivergent lens. Like I just cannot get along to get along. I'm going to say the things that need to be said. I think because of masking, I've learned to say it in a way that's palatable to people. And so while I'm figuring out unmasking,

they're still the balance of.

what people knew of me for years and how they expect that communication to look and balancing. I want to share that perspective, but I also want to be a little bit more authentic to myself. ⁓ So I have more comfort doing it one-on-one my boss and my peers, but I recognize my title.

and what that impact can look like to people. So for me, I think that the...

I want people to share and I know that there can be times the tone can be very forward, very personal for people related to something they feel very passionately, strongly about. And I think with my peers, we've done a good job of going, okay, wow, that maybe was like a really direct communication.

that falls under this department. Hey, do you want to go have a one-on-one and get to the root of like what was going on there? What was driving it? And how can we have a more collaborative conversation? Because that didn't feel like it could be collaborative. And I think what I see some of our leaders doing now is they're probably having more one-on-ones with people where individual can get to that leader better, build a connection.

and having more small teams conversations.

Amy Parrish (35:10)
want to shift gears a little bit just because I want to make sure that we talk about your neurodivergence and unmasking. And I'm really curious about what that's been like for you at work and what you notice is different. What you notice is the same. What's getting stronger.

What's that been like for you to look at work through that lens?

Dana Calder (35:42)
I think for me, unmasking and being more authentic with my neurodivergence, with a recent diagnosis I feel more comfortable first sharing with my leader, which I thought, I don't know if I'm going to tell, share, ⁓ but he and I have been together for five plus years. And so

I wanted to share because I think there's been some question marks that come up like, why are you so rigid sometimes when we're trying to move fast with the process? ⁓ Why do you get staunch on certain things? So I think it was these question marks, not only for myself, but as he's trying to coach and guide me of like, why are we getting stuck? And I think what I'm, and I got nervous. I'm also queer

And so I've had a coming out many years ago and remember that whole process of feeling nervous telling someone something about your identity and going, is there going to be judgment? What's that going to look like? ⁓

And it's a one-on-one. And while we're professional, I don't cry at work too much. That's something I share with friends and family. I tend to have a just very, I don't want to say tough, but like, this is how I am at work. And to see his face gentle and just lean in and listen, it took me aback a little bit of like, okay, now I want to hide. Cause I feel like I'm going to cry to get this level of acceptance.

from this person and he just listened and

in my true work fashion, said, I've also created a guide for myself so can know myself better. And he just kind of smiled and he said, if there's anything you'd like me to read, said, sure, I'll share this with you. But it is the gentleness that he does in certain times that makes me feel safe to share and happy that I did it because it's not something I want to hide. ⁓ so I think

that was helpful to have that space. ⁓ It's not something I'm centering around right now, because I'm still exploring and figuring out how I show up. is, we're just like a month since my knowing.

And then there's a couple of peers I feel comfortable sharing with, and they just make space and listen, but it's really the listening that's super helpful. And then I think that what I've noticed now in meetings is I'm able to listen ⁓ with a little more curiosity, think sometimes because even I can have knowing that's, I don't know, for the annoying of like,

I know you shouldn't do that. Or I know it should be this way for the system, especially the system I built, you should do it this way. ⁓ I'm just listening and observing. And if I feel like a meeting's exhausting, because I think there's endless chatter and not much productivity, I'm settling in my body with this understanding of, I'm feeling frustrated. ⁓ I'm feeling annoyed.

I think because I didn't have this connection to that feeling in a way that I was like, you're not allowed to feel that way. They're doing their thing. You're just gonna, you're just gonna deal with it. I'm like talking through in my head, like, yeah, I'm annoyed. yeah, I'm frustrated. It's not for me to solve. It's not my meeting. This is not my lane. I know how I run my things. It's okay. Let them.

do their thing. I don't need to fix it. Nobody asked me to fix it. Nobody asked for my feedback related to running this meeting.

Amy Parrish (39:53)
It's been so cool to just watch, just be alongside you as all of this has been unfolding. you know, your boss's reaction has just been so, it seems like it's been so fortifying for you. And that...

the difference like difference is seen as like unprofessional or like, if you're different, you're incompetent in some way. But it seems like

Being able to know and then talk about it as you're comfortable has also increased your capability and your connection with your work.

that it just seems like it's become more... ⁓

more part of you in a way that's not something to win, but it's like a job that you're doing, if that makes sense, like the difference in those two things.

Dana Calder (41:23)
Yes, it does make sense for me, Amy, because for a while it wasn't just a job I was doing. It was my whole identity. Like work has always been these big identities for me. And I always want to connect so intensely. And I think it was some self-reflection during the assessment process of like, what do my special interests look like? I'm like,

You mean people don't jump from chocolate to opticianry to textbook selling to running a code school to now working in fintech and learning payments? That's not what everybody does? I was like, wait, what, what? these have all been special interests. That I could just go down these rabbit holes and have to grasp, learn, wrangle with every aspect of it and know the information.

And I think when I took a moment to stop, I just recently came back from vacation, just connect and just pause. I never paused to think, what do I want to do? And having some interesting conversations with my family of like,

What would it look like if you just pursued something not because of a financial need, but because it's like a curiosity for you outside of, you know, working for money. And that's something I'm thinking about because I've never thought about it that way. Never thought about it that way. It's always been wired to financial stability and gain.

which as a person of color is like very important for me of like, what does that look like to build for generations for my family? So I feel this pressure, ⁓ but I want to make space to even consider this question because I'd never considered it.

Amy Parrish (43:34)
Well, yeah, because that knowing is like, I know I have to make money so that I can take care of myself and my family. And then whatever that looks like, that's what I'm gonna do.

but then stepping outside of that can feel dangerous and risky. I mean, as risky as it is to go to your, you know, CEO with, hey, this is the, this is a, I just did an assessment and this is a diagnosis I just got. And.

how that it's almost like it's almost like the more honest you are and the more yourself you are even when there's risk involved you become more settled.

And it makes me think about there's like, I don't know and not knowing. And then there's also like inner knowing.

Dana Calder (44:45)
Mm.

Amy Parrish (44:52)
And when you get curious and you're willing to not know, it sort of leads you to the inner knowing that isn't exactly. ⁓

It's not like a one thing. It's just like a sense of something.

And so what you're saying makes me think that you're sensing what work actually does, what role it plays for you.

and maybe almost like you're changing your mind about some of the things that you thought you knew.

Dana Calder (45:39)
which is terrifying, because it is this level of not knowing. And at this stage in my career, I think you're expected to have this level, or I feel, I feel like you're supposed to have this sense of knowing.

Amy Parrish (45:41)
Yeah.

Dana Calder (46:01)
and

I don't know why things like LinkedIn even, or at least in my mind matter of like, what would that look like? How would people perceive if I completely shift again? I mean, sure, I could tell the narrative. I know I could, but there is this fear of like, what's that gonna look like? How will that be perceived? You don't know what you're doing. Oh my gosh, how are we gonna trust this person?

Amy Parrish (46:28)
like you don't know what you're doing.

Dana Calder (46:36)
But I know I could communicate whatever I decide in a way that builds trust. ⁓ But it is that reckoning moment for me of what comes next? What do I want? And if I reflect that I've had these moments ⁓ and I think I calm myself by knowing that from history, when I go after

with both hands, something that I'm really passionate or driven by, like I can make an impact or I can make a difference or this feels very much I'm connected with the mission. ⁓ I can be a force and in a way that it's it's fulfilling for me. And I've had a job that wasn't as fulfilling that I was just like, I need something that seems to match.

And I remember a friend looking at me a week after being in that role going, how's it going? I just like, I finished all my work by Wednesday. And she was like, yeah, you like, you like complex things. You don't like simplicity. You think you'll do well with simplicity. ⁓ But your mind gets bored. And even though I didn't even connect it, but I do like.

complex, messy things. And the reason I took the seat to head up people was like, it's getting complex, needed more thoughts in terms of building systems. I could see the challenge and I was like, ooh, this will be fun to like get right in there. And I think when I think about some of my hobbies that I really enjoy, where I smile and I don't think about it as like, ooh, this is a challenge.

is like, I decided to explore vegan baking. ⁓ There were years that I was fully plant-based and I was like, I want to figure out these desserts. I want to figure out how to do this. And there's something for me about baking. I think maybe the precise measurements that feel so rewarding and satisfying and just humming and smiling and baking. And there's just like this joy.

this relaxation that comes through. And I think I don't know what it looks like, but that is what I want. And whatever comes next for me is this sense of settling in and feeling like while it's complex, there is this joy and different intensity to it. think that's what I'm looking for, different intensity, but I don't know what it looks like.

So it's journey to finding it. And I know for people that can feel really scary, like what am I seeking?

Amy Parrish (49:46)
It's...

Dana Calder (49:46)
And I think when

I've chatted with people who are figuring that out, especially with work and it just looks different right now in terms of the market. And I empathize for people who are looking and looking and it's tough right now, but when they land, just like, I think part of what helps is like, figure out an environment where I can thrive.

Amy Parrish (50:11)
you started looking at work through a different lens.

I, this is just sort of occurring to me right now, but it's like you knew what you were supposed to do.

And then when you started questioning yourself and being willing to not know and thinking about who am I in the world? Am I autistic? Is this something that could be true about me? The willingness to go over into that space of I don't know, it's sort of like...

been unsettling, but also opened up a whole other universe that you never would have known could be there.

And it also, God just stands out to me so much that we decide who we are with this certainty. But then we're changing all the time.

And just seeing the difference that curiosity has made in your energy it's just so.

It's such a, for me, it's such a, it's inspirational because it makes me remember that that's what's important to me too, is being curious and not getting stuck in like, is who I am.

and then what's going to happen next.

Dana Calder (51:52)
Yes.

Yeah, I am. sitting here smiling because I was thinking, I was just reflecting back. I felt like a question mark for a while like, can start to interpret and understand multiple people's perspectives. And even when we were building out what it looked like to educate on diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging.

Amy Parrish (51:57)
like we're just sitting here smiling at each other.

Dana Calder (52:25)
For me, it was really important that we built out a guide around how do we engage around communications and meetings from a neurodivergent lens. is before I even knew for myself, just knew intrinsically, like this is how you should conduct meetings. This is how you should do communications. This is how you should be clear just to build an inclusive environment.

and being able to coach and help individuals one-on-one who are like, I'm getting stuck. This is how I'm approaching this conversation. How would you approach it? And I didn't recognize, I was giving them advice that I oftentimes use for myself. And then Amy, when I met you, I was just like, wait a second, you're my personality twin. Hold up, tell me more about you.

I was just watching you Amy. was like, wait a second. You're my personality twin. What do you mean? You're going on this journey. Wait a second. Cause I remember chatting with you and go, I think like you, like how do you pace conversations when you have this certainty in knowing and you're waiting for someone else who is an unknowing and you're giving me advice. just like, and then I started to think, I was like, is there something about me that I hadn't?

really even considered. was like, where's, I was like, the identity is, was like, lesbian, woman of color, Caribbean American. I was like, is there something else that I didn't realize? And then I just started reading a lot of articles and just thinking. And then I was like, you know, I'll take an online assessment. I was really thinking, I don't know where this is going to go.

I was like, okay, let me take this assessment. And then I remember not looking at the scoring, like what the ranges would be. I just wanted to scroll down. I was like, 183. I was like, what is that? And I was like, ⁓

Oh, okay. That is, let's explore this further. Okay, let's take one for masking too. like, we're doing these, let's keep going. And I was like, oh, I could be highly masking. Had not even considered that I had created scripts and systems. And so every time I was showing up for meetings, conversations, I thought, I thought everybody else was spending hours.

getting their data together, getting their agendas detailed, having responses ready to go, four or five responses ready to go. I remember telling during the assessment, was like, yeah, I spend like five hours getting ready for my one-on-one with my boss. They're like, how long is the one, an hour?

you're spending, yeah, well yeah, in case he's going to ask for certain data, statistics, I want to kind of have in my head responses, things like that. And so when he adds to his agenda, like a couple hours beforehand, I'm like, what's happening? What am I supposed to do now? I'm not ready for this. I guess I'll be ready. I have no choice. And it would undo me. And then that's when I was starting to recognize, ⁓

Okay, the whole assessment helped validate for me all the areas of how I was showing up as an autistic individual that I had never seen that were actually exhausting me. Exhausting me related to the level of prep I was doing. I was putting it under the guise of a person of color having to be better and prepare because this is what my parents taught like you as a

First generation Caribbean American, you just have to keep double down, triple down, be better. College be better, high school be better. And so I just kept carrying this through.

Amy Parrish (56:30)
Yeah, you gotta like ultra ultra ultra know.

Dana Calder (56:34)
Yes, yes, I feel like I have to be like 99.99 % certain, come with data, facts, everything. And then after the assessment, I realized.

It's okay that I don't have everything. And I had to go back to even when I started this role and I worked with customers and it was, it was okay for me to tell customers, let me check on that. want to make certain with certainty that the answer I'm giving you is correct. And that was fine. That's the environment I work in. Like it's fine. But I felt this sense of certainty that I had to have in all of these meetings, especially as a leader meeting with the CEO.

It's an hour of his productivity time. need to maximize it. I need to make certain I'm showing my impact. And the past few times I've let go a little. I've let go of, it's fine. ⁓ This is to show up curious and to spend some time brainstorming with him. I was terrified to brainstorm without feeling very prepared where it's very scripted. And he would even say when I'd facilitate sessions or chat with him like,

let's have some space to just talk. And I was just, what do mean? Space to talk about what? What do you want to talk about? Tell me now so I can prepare. And I let go, even with doing stats readouts for the executive team, it's been okay. I have all, I have 30 slides. I mean, before I would have 50, but I have 30 slides.

And ⁓ if I didn't have something coming like, okay, that's great. Let me write that down. So I can add that to an appendix afterwards for you to share and see. I didn't put it as the forefront priority for what I wanted to share. In the past, I would have been stuck. Like, my God, why didn't you think about that? Why didn't you think about having that slide? Did you have it in your main slide? You should have considered this. I would have been in this spiral afterwards of like,

Okay, let's make certain every single slide afterwards, every other presentation you cover this information. I've let go of this level of perfectionism of, okay, they have feedback. It's okay. It's not an immediate action item that you need to address now. You're not in trouble. There's nothing wrong. The big one is the not in trouble. I think I've always operated from, don't want to get in trouble.

Amy Parrish (59:16)
Yeah, and same. Or I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing.

Dana Calder (59:22)
.

Amy Parrish (59:23)
has been really big. mean, and just, it's interesting to me that like,

there's the ⁓

There's saying, we as a society say, it's okay if you don't know. It's okay.

But then, when you're going in for a meeting with your boss and you're preparing for five hours. So it's like the thing that's spoken, but is it the thing that's actually real?

Dana Calder (1:00:03)
I think there's a middle ground.

Amy Parrish (1:00:05)
Well, seems like you're finding it.

Dana Calder (1:00:07)
Yeah, I'm finding the middle ground now that I know knowing of me.

I think for me, what I have figured out, just even from my lesbian identity, when I came out, it's like, I was figuring out how does that fit in? How do I fit into the LGBTQIA plus community? What does that look like? What do relationships look like? What does my connection look like? What is authentically me as a lesbian?

And so now, and I did it with such intensity in my 20s, like I must know all the things. I must watch all the shows. I must read all the articles.

This for me is a little bit more of like a slower entry of

I want to take my time and understand like, what does me unmasked look like? Let's start there. What does that look like?

Amy Parrish (1:01:15)
Yeah, you're right.

you're getting your information, you're getting your knowing from yourself instead of from outside of yourself.

Dana Calder (1:01:22)
Yes.

Amy Parrish (1:01:27)
It's like you're giving yourself the freedom not only to not know, but also to find out from yourself as a reliable source of information.

Dana Calder (1:01:43)
That's right. I want to look internally first. Not to say I'm not reading articles or listening to podcasts. ⁓ I joyously wait every time a Rebelling podcast comes out. ⁓ But I am taking my time to understand. think even during the assessment, I noise doesn't bother me. ⁓

Amy Parrish (1:02:02)
you

Dana Calder (1:02:12)
I remember going to the pool with the family and feeling my shoulders start to rise and my body kind of like tighten up. And I was like, I just paused and I was like, what is this? What is this? What is impacting me? And it's like the whistle, people's music playing, loud conversations. And I had bought

some loop devices really for my wife to use in the theater. Cause she was like, music's, the sound is really loud. And I was like, ⁓ and I had bought some for myself too. And I happened, I was like, and I wasn't sure, but I was like, let me throw it in the pool bag just in case. And I got in the pool. like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna push through. And I think that has been my life sometimes. I'm like, I'm just going to push through. This is, this is how other people feel. But like the knowing now of I'm autistic of a, wait, this, this could be a sensitivity. This could be something.

doesn't feel right for me. And so I jumped out of the pool, put them in, got in, felt my gosh, thank it just minimized. And I was like, oh, and so now I try airport. So it's just like, okay, I'm not into this. Let me put these in or going into a lounge. And I'm like, you know what y'all it's so crowded in here. And just looking and I think because my family now knows just the eye contact of I can't do this before we like

Just deal with it. But I feel like I can say, I can't do this. I'm gonna go find somewhere else in the airport to sit quietly and just find a corner and just moving around when conversations get loud like, you know, I can't do this. Let me find a new quiet corner. Let me wander. And I think it's the permission to feel and to listen to my body rather than to push through.

because the push through is not working.

Amy Parrish (1:04:09)
Mm-mm.

And it's also...

you you that made me think of you you knew like this is this is a good idea right now and now that's changed and so i don't know what i want anymore but i know i don't want this and i'm gonna actually let myself move out into uncertainty to see what comes next

Dana Calder (1:04:41)
Yes.

Amy Parrish (1:04:43)
What did we miss?

Dana Calder (1:04:45)
Hmm. I don't know. What do you think we missed?

Amy Parrish (1:05:01)
I think we didn't talk a lot about pace, which I think is really, important. I also know that we've been talking for like an hour and 15 minutes, so that's like a while. That's a while for me.

Dana Calder (1:05:12)
Bye.

Okay.

Amy Parrish (1:05:21)
But I'm curious, like if you do have anything, is there anything about pace and like at work knowing because of the pace? Is that something that happens?

Dana Calder (1:05:35)
Yes. So

when I think about pace at work and what's changing for me, and I think with some of the changes related to what I focus on now with my boss's guidance, like I'm focused more on coaching and developing leaders and people and recruiting is I'm used to taking on a significant amount of work.

like that for me, it's like has been important, fuels me when I feel like the scope is more limited.

And I'm moving at a slower pace, I can sometimes get frustrated. Even with his urgent, like, it's okay, it allows you to do deep work, focus in these areas, it's meaningful. I think now understanding from a gifted autistic lens is like, for me, it's like balancing boredom. It doesn't feel like large quantities.

So I'm in a way like, if it's not fast pace, it feels like boredom because I'm like, I can get a lot done and I want to get more done. But I recognize as I want to get more done, it doesn't mean the organization's ready for the quantity that I can deliver.

Like I have to slow my pace down because I now recognize like, they're not ready. Like I can build a two to four year plan, but what they really want is six months to a year. And so now with that in my mind, I can now think about that and think about how I pace my work to match their pace. And I sharing with someone, it almost feels like.

What I didn't realize is like, sometimes I get so far ahead. And what was frustrating to me is I'm like waiting, like, come here, catch up, catch up, catch up, catch up. And the organization didn't want to be pushed to move at my pace. But my frustration was like, I'm over here. Come on, let's go get over here. And it was just moving it too fast. And now I recognize, it's being a bit more patient.

of when you are doing change, especially with change management, it is about thinking about that other person's pace or the organization's pace and their readiness for change. And their readiness for change may not be on my timeline, and that's okay. But I never recognized my timeline was so out of sync with their timeline. And so now that knowing helps me go, okay. And what the balance is like,

Where can I do more deep work or maybe analysis that brings me joy? And then thinking through what could a new special interests hobby look like for me? Where I can shift some of that intensity that I have to have a way to get out. If I can't get out at work, I've got to get it out somewhere else.

And so what does that look like in terms of any courses I want to take for learning to excite and get me passionate about things? So you're pointing. So I was like, I want to hear.

Amy Parrish (1:09:01)
Boom.

Yeah, you just said something so important.

your pace at the level that you are goes down. And so if you're working fast, everyone has to like you're pulling them with you.

and they may not be ready. The business, the system itself may not be ready for that fast. And so when you slow that down, but then give yourself the opportunity to...

deepen your knowledge or skill or lean into another part of your life where that intensity could fulfill you, it actually creates a healthier organization as a whole.

because what you're.

what you're great at

that like intensity that like creation figuring out all the things and then you hand that to other people but then you're already like and come on and they're like wait what hold on i i i don't i haven't even oh god okay and so they rush this happens everywhere like

This happens, the connection between the top and the middle and the bottom and the pace is so different.

And that's really, it's really fascinating to me that you recognize that and that you recognize that you want to like slow down and what else can you do so that the organization isn't rushing.

but you're not like, okay, so y'all catch up. I'm just gonna be standing here.

What do you think you would do? Like, you think it, do you think for your life, could you use some balance? Because work has been such a focus for you your entire life. Would it make sense to add Dana outside of work into that? Or is work just your, is your thing? And so it needs to be something in that area.

Dana Calder (1:11:34)
Yeah, I think I want to make certain I'm a well-rounded person. I don't work, I want work to be so much my identity.

Um, and I think about that. I think about, if this is so, this is morbid, but I, this is what I think about. think about like, if I'm gone, I don't want people to celebrate my work impact only. Like, is that it? How is she, you know, hobbies or volunteering or things like that. I think that could create the right level of impact for me where

Maybe it is volunteering with an organization I feel really passionate about and getting involved in that way. Maybe it is taking courses where I can learn more about coaching and helping develop people. Maybe it's more baking. I don't know, but it's given me the opportunity to really think about what that could look like instead of so much work focus.

And I know that the message comes from, and in a good way, from my parents of like, you have to make an impact at work because of the financial aspect and being set up for success and what that means for your family. So it's a balancing of learning how to withdraw some my energy away from work to do something else. So it's like,

now knowing where it comes from where I feel this need to be all in. I'm like, I am all in 150%. Like I get from my boss oh, I know you're in there. There's never been a question that you're dedicated. You're all in. I think in my mind, I was like, I don't want that to be questioned. want him to know I am all in always. And I'm like, okay, I see where that comes from. This intensity.

and just shifting it and thinking about what connection looks like and recognizing interesting connection is still hard for me when it comes to people. In the duality of being a head of people, but connection is hard. It's, it's not intrinsic for me. It does come from scripts. ⁓ so being a bit more authentic with what that looks like in terms of connection. Now with you, Amy.

That was just like off the cuff. It was just natural, it was easy. But for me it was like, why is this easy? Why is, ⁓ okay, okay. I get it now.

Amy Parrish (1:14:03)
Yeah, we just had it off right away.

Totally same.

Dana Calder (1:14:14)
Yes, but you know, I am excited, nervous to explore what other hobbies could look like and not be so focused on work. ⁓ Because I know burnout is real. And I know reflecting back when there have been instances of autistic inertia or meltdowns.

or burnout for me.

I think it will be beneficial for me to find a way to have intensity in other areas. So I'm not so enmeshed.

Amy Parrish (1:14:56)
Yeah, I think about this all the time too. I don't think it's morbid at all. thinking about the fact that this, you know, one life, this is it. here we are. I get this one chance to be this iteration of this being. And then what will I want to feel about my life as it ends?

and what will I leave people with?

It's been interesting to not know that and to lean into trying to figure it out. the thing that just keeps coming up for me is joy. how can there be more love and how can there be more joy? And like you, those are things I don't, you know, I just have never really felt great at. And so.

It makes sense that we lean over, so many of us lean over into work because it's a way that we get the, you know, the pat on the head, the reward.

but there's like, there's something so magical about not knowing what else there is outside of this one place.

Dana Calder (1:16:20)
Yes, I agree. I agree with the joy that resonated when you said the joy for me. So was just thinking about how I will watch travel videos, people traveling, and I'm so curious. And I'm just like, look at what they're exploring. And when I had the chance to recently explore Puerto Rico, I found so much joy in like getting immersed in other culture, seeing history.

And that just clicked for me. I'm watching something I want to do. And I get so much joy in planning a trip and figuring out what we're gonna see and exploring that. ⁓ And we travel so nicely as a family together with my kiddo and my wife. And even just recently, it's just me and my wife just traveling together, exploring. ⁓

That could be so much more of my life of exploring. my gosh, Amy. Should I Venmo you? There we go again. Coach. Exploring. I love exploring and it could even just be exploring North Carolina, walking in the woods, different trails.

Amy Parrish (1:17:25)
There it is. There it is.

Dana Calder (1:17:37)
leaving my house, okay, joy, joy can just show up in the most simplest things. think I just try to make it so big where I can just start with small things.

Amy Parrish (1:17:50)
And when you're brought up to think that work is where you get your joy.

And that's how you become a good  person.

And so then that's what you know is like, I know. if I'm good at work, I'm good all the way around. But then there's so much more to it.

And so to kind of bring us like into a circle of the myth of knowing it's like the myth.

hides the fact that knowing is an active, lived thing.

And then when you think about that at work.

you feel like you found the answer and so you just put all of your energy into work.

But where's the joy? There's other joy. There's more. Like there's joy at doing a good job at work. But then there's also other joy.

Dana Calder (1:19:14)
Other joy. I'm just, I'm just struck. I'm just struck. Cause when you just sat there and said that, that knowing of work and the message and how it's been received and then talking about other joy, it never dawned on me until you delineated it that way. What I'm looking for is other joy. I was like how before we said the culture, good and bad. I was all in very binary of

work. It's all there. All the joy. And I never thought there could be other joy. My goodness. Thank you, Amy.

Amy Parrish (1:19:53)
You're welcome. there, I mean, there can be, you know, there can be other joy when you retire.

Dana Calder (1:20:01)
But why do I have to wait for retirement?

Amy Parrish (1:20:03)
We absolutely never, ever, ever have to.

Dana Calder (1:20:07)
But I think

I was, I was waiting for retirement. I wasn't thinking of organizing it to have pockets of other joy.

Amy Parrish (1:20:18)
Yeah, because what you knew was work is supposed to be my life.

Dana Calder (1:20:26)
Yes.

Amy Parrish (1:20:27)
and

then when I retire, then I can have a life. Work is my life until I retire and then I can have a life.

Dana Calder (1:20:38)
But then I've spent my whole life with one thing. So what does that joy look like? Have in my mind removed what I thought was joy when I retire. And so now I'm searching rather than figuring it out now. My goodness, Amy. Living it.

Amy Parrish (1:20:53)
Yeah, living it now. Live

it. Right now.

Dana Calder (1:21:01)
Okay, live it now. Other joy.

Amy Parrish (1:21:05)
other joy.

That's not the where I thought we were gonna go at the end, but I think it's a beautiful way to.

to wrap up and yeah, like other joy.

Dana Calder (1:21:18)
Yeah.

Gosh, I really was just working until retirement and I was going to be so confused what to do with myself.

Amy Parrish (1:21:31)
Yeah, no, you just live your whole life like while you're living your whole life. I know it's crazy. I think all of it's crazy, you know, one podcast at a time. It's great. I really enjoy talking about things like this. And I

Dana Calder (1:21:36)
What? What a concept.

Wow.

How are you feeling? That was a lot of talking.

Okay.

Amy Parrish (1:21:58)
you know, because I don't have corporate experience in a long way or in a, in, you know, a climb the ladder kind of way. Cause that's just not what I ever did. Um,

It's, for me, it's really cool because I have the outside perspective. And so I can hear, like you talk about your work, which is very, you know, corporate. But it doesn't, it feels like a different.

country, guess is the way to say it, but also not that it's, think there's just, know, work is made up of people and people are just people. Like we're just human. And when we try to make ourselves machines and, you know, just demonstrate like all of these perfect qualities.

We forget who we are. we're just, it's a company. Like company. we're, it's just people trying to get some shit done.

Dana Calder (1:23:15)
That's right.

You're right.

Amy Parrish (1:23:19)
and we get wound up into all these other things and yeah, I just like, I just hope it changes because I work with a lot of people who are really incredible people who are really incredibly burned out and disillusioned.

and busting ass to try to get to that next level or to, you know, just be successful in the ways they've been taught that they're supposed to be. And I just, I just see people's spirits are just flagging so hard.

Dana Calder (1:24:00)
I think it was when I was chatting with a potential therapist and she was like, what's a new hobby look like for you? I was like, what? She's like, yeah, you need something because all the intensities with work. And you need a new special interest. I just hadn't thought about it that way. I was like, oh, but I think for people who are so focused on the next ladder.

It wasn't until another coach said this to me, because I was so worried about going from director to VP. VP felt like, what am I going to be held to? What am going to have to do now? Type of thing. And she's like, it's just a title. She's like, can throw VP, it's just titles. should just worry about the scope of the work and how you want to make an impact. And I try to remember that.

I try to remind myself it's just a title. You're handing out a title. ⁓ But for people who are looking to get that title, can understand. It feels different because it's like I'm trying to grab at it and it just feels like I can't grab at this thing and no one's telling me why can't grab at it.

Amy Parrish (1:25:18)
Yeah, because if you have, if I'm a VP, then I'm a knower.

I know what I'm doing. And so you have a big title, which gives you security. But actually, the people that I work with that are at that level also feel like imposters, feel like they don't know, feel like they don't know what they're doing and that they're failing.

And so that again, it's like that myth of knowing, ⁓ if I have this title, then then I will have arrived. It's like, you still are going to feel the same way you felt yesterday. It's like, you know, we're both runners and we both run marathons. And it's like.

you run this whole marathon and then you cross the finish line and it's like, yeah. And then you just sort of hobble off to the car and like that's next. there's the accomplishment, then you just keep living.

Dana Calder (1:26:23)
Yes.

Amy Parrish (1:26:25)
It doesn't, it doesn't. ⁓

It's not magic. Like it doesn't turn you into a different person. It changes you, but it doesn't... You're still you.

Dana Calder (1:26:39)
Yeah. And I think when I was doing all the half marathons I was doing, I was so focused on the race and getting the medal and crossing the line and improving my pace and getting into a different pace group, all of this. there was a lot of great accomplishments. I did a lot of half marathons. But when I look back now, the actual joy was the training runs, the training runs with my friends where we would talk and hear about each other's lives.

and give advice, give a safe space to just be vulnerable. That was like, now I'm at this point where I'm like, can I just join the training runs? I don't want to do the race. And I'm like, is that the other joy? Like I just never thought about it. That was the other joy. And I just didn't, when you're in it or trying to achieve this thing you've never achieved, you're so focused on the goal that you miss out on all the joy that's around with it.

Amy Parrish (1:27:24)
Yes.

Yeah.

Dana Calder (1:27:39)
⁓ and again, I'm coming from a place like I have gained those titles. So I understand people are like, she has the title, but I don't have the title yet. So I get where that feels very frustrating where you're like, I can't listen to you. You already have the title. You have what I want. ⁓ so I understand they're trying very hard to achieve these titles. It's, something that means a lot to them. ⁓

At least within my organization, I try to make it clear or at least make certain if the leaders like, I don't think they're ever going to get there. Like, like tell them, tell them, tell them why so they can stop toiling if you really feel like it. but also I'm going to push it. Like, why, why can't they get there? What are we not telling them? ⁓ so I could imagine that's really frustrating because it sounds like they're not getting the feedback.

to know what's left. And I've learned now that I just cannot stand the politics part of it. And I'm not good at it, don't like it. And being in the seat I am, I'm able to control that and try to diminish it as much as possible. But that looks different from organization to organization. So I'm just not into it. I don't think it helps any organization.

Why are we doing these power plays, this ego, things like that? Just because we've done it before doesn't mean we should continue doing it. And so that's where I can be like, kind of frustrating to other leaders who maybe come in like, what do you mean? I'm like, that doesn't make sense. Why would you do that? But now I know that lens that it's coming from. It's like, I prefer clarity. I don't like games. I want it to be clear. I want to hold to the ladders we say we're holding to and

Now I know. I might just try to figure out different ways a softer approach rather than very direct, maybe for others aggressive in terms of trying to understand your different perspective, which confounds and confuses me, but doing it in a way that's respectful, not seen as disrespectful, that's seen as collaborative and not maybe hostile. So there's a lot of learning and growing.

Amy Parrish (1:30:06)
and making other measures of success beyond title. it's such a, it's such a fixed formula that you're only successful if you're this.

And it's been interesting to work with people now who are like, no, I'm happy where I am. And so now how do I, how do I create depth, which is ding ding exactly what you're doing. How do I create depth in the role that I'm in? if I'm not reaching for the next thing. So if I'm not reaching up, how do I reach out? How do I reach down? How do I become more well-rounded?

across your whole life.

Dana Calder (1:30:52)
Yes. And I think that is the thing, Amy, is like across your whole life, you get so focused on the scope of the work and you're thinking you should be creating depth in terms of maybe the programs are running, the people, things like that, like finding different ways when actually you should stop just looking at work and look around your whole life. Because I hear people when they talk about burnout, it is like their family or friends going ding ding ding.

You're so focused here, there's lack of connection outside of it. And then it's a scramble, how do I do this? Well, I'm starting to recognize how work can't be my everything and isn't as fulfilling being my everything. How many different organizations can I join? How many of them, you know, I create impact, I do these things and I keep going, I keep going.

how many races am I going to run? How many medals do I need to collect? What about those training runs? Where are they? And that is what my coaches are helping me figure out. It's like, ⁓ I look forward to our walks or runs, Amy ⁓ with other friends and with connecting with my family. ⁓

It doesn't have to be at this intensity. It can just be being together.

Amy Parrish (1:32:17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you just like, you just touch a few people, just a few key people.

Dana Calder (1:32:27)
Mm.

Amy Parrish (1:32:29)
there's the ripples instead of this huge impact. And I just really, I just think that the way that we live our lives is a great teacher. That when someone shows me the freedom to choose and the freedom to be in their life the way that they want to be, that also gives me the freedom to do that too.

Dana Calder (1:32:35)
Mm-hmm.

I that. And I love that you said key people, because it helps me recognize and realize it's okay in terms of connecting. Like for me, it's too daunting and exhausting to have connections with a ton of people. ⁓ I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. I just felt like I should do it. ⁓ But having a couple key, deep relationships is meaningful for me.

Amy Parrish (1:33:24)
Yeah, and to cultivate, to cultivate that depth so you're not accumulating, like, I'm just gonna accumulate a bunch of people, but you actually do the, you put the work in of creating relationship with people and you, I don't know, do you need to have it all? what is all? can all be little?

Dana Calder (1:33:50)
I love this. think all can be little, but I wasn't realizing all could be little.

Amy Parrish (1:33:55)
All can be little, doesn't have to be so big.

Yeah, all of the things that we think we know.

Dana Calder (1:34:04)
Yes, so wise. Thank you.

Amy Parrish (1:34:05)
⁓

Yeah, thank you so much. I just love all of our conversations and I appreciate you being willing to be here and share your experience and your what you know and what you don't know. Yeah, I'm gonna stop recording.

Amy Parrish (1:34:29)
Many thanks to Dana Calder for this thought provoking and open conversation. And y'all remember how I said an hour and 15 minutes was a long time for me to talk? Well, Dana and I ended up talking for a total of three hours that morning. An hour and a half was recorded. Actually an hour and 45 minutes was recorded and it flew by. I was so glad that I spoke up and said that an hour and 15 was long enough.

because I actually think it gave me the energy and sense of freedom to talk over twice as long. Thank you so much for listening. And before I go, I want to invite you to my Neuroqueering Addiction Sobriety and Recovery class that's happening this coming Sunday, August 24th, from 1 to 3 p.m. Eastern, live on Zoom. And don't worry if you can't make it live, it will be recorded too.

This is a space to explore addiction, sobriety, and recovery from a neurodivergent and queer informed perspective, moving beyond traditional models and opening up new ways of understanding ourselves, our choices, and our relationships with these ideas. If this resonates, I'd love for you to join us. You can grab a spot at rebelling.me slash classes and groups, and let's keep our conversation going.

I'll see you next time. Bye.