Knowing What Heals

In this episode of The Myth of Knowing series, I talk with Jen Andrew, who is finishing a two-year program in community herbalism and works in communications at a disability rights nonprofit. She has a background in philanthropy, public libraries, peer support, healthcare, and public school advocacy. Jen’s journey includes herbalism, chronic illness, grief work, sobriety, and neurodivergent living, giving her a unique perspective on how we relate to our bodies, health, and the process of healing.

We get curious about what heals, the both/and of natural and institutional medicine, healing as an ongoing process, curiosity as a healing tool, and talk about how the myth of knowing closes doors when it comes to ways of healing. 

Jen and I challenge the idea that there is one “right” way to take care of ourselves. Healing can happen in many ways, including the unknown, the rhythms and practices we make our own, and the trust and curiosity we have with ourselves.

Links:

The Flexner Report

Terra Sylva School of Botanical Medicine

Umwelt

Sophie Strand

Staying with the Trouble by Donna Haraway

AuDHD Flourishing Episode Sobriety While AuDHD + Gifted (the reason Jen and I met!)

Rebelling website

Work with me

Transcript

Amy Parrish (00:45)
Hey y'all, today for my series, The Myth of Knowing, I'm talking with Jen Andrew, who is finishing up a two-year community herbalism course this November. Jen and I met when she emailed me after she heard me as a guest on the AuDHD Flourishing podcast, talking about how getting an AuDHD diagnosis changed the way I see addiction, sobriety, and recovery as a neurodivergent person. It turned out that we hit it off

right away in our first Zoom meeting, that we live close enough to be in real life friends, and that we have a lot in common. And I knew when I wanted to talk about knowing how to heal, she was someone I wanted to interview because of her close relationship with medical and natural ways of healing. In this episode, we get curious about knowing what heals, the both and of natural and institutional medicine.

Healing as a process, curiosity as a healing tool, how we're taught that we need expertise to heal and how sometimes healing happens in the unknown.

Jen works in communications at a disability rights nonprofit and has a background in philanthropy, libraries, peer support, healthcare, and school advocacy. She is as curious as I am and reads as much as me. She's also ADHD, gifted, sober, a certified death doula, and a self-described grief nerd, and deals with chronic illness. The land she tends is her yard.

a small but beloved plot that she has developed a deep relationship with. Here's our conversation.

Amy Parrish (02:37)
It's not making the noise anymore. No, that's okay. ⁓ and then, ⁓ yeah, cause I was like, I think it'll take it out. But then I also realized that I, I was not going to be able to listen to that without having part of my brain over there thinking about what is that noise? What is that noise? Okay.

Jen (02:39)
Okay good, I'm so sorry.

No, yeah, yeah.

Yes. No, no, I'd rather, yeah. Well, I'm glad

my highly technical solution works.

Amy Parrish (03:07)
And I'm also glad that I ⁓ am able to able to stop you in the middle of talking and be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, we need to.

Jen (03:13)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad

you did. We'd be so sad if we recorded all that and then it didn't sound good.

Amy Parrish (03:22)
And then didn't work. ⁓ so yeah, so you were telling me about you and sort of your ⁓ meandering path.

Jen (03:24)
Yeah.

Yes, I had a really meandering path ⁓ to get where I am today. I will try to summarize, but I've worked in a medical genetics lab. I worked ⁓ on the HIV and AIDS hotline. I was ⁓ in libraries for 10 years. ⁓ And I got into advocacy. ⁓

in communications. started in public school advocacy ⁓ and now I work for a disability rights organization ⁓ and I really love it. I feel really ⁓ accommodated and well resourced in my position now. I get to work from home, which is wonderful and helps me, especially when I have bad days from long COVID.

⁓ and I am finishing up a, community herbalist program with Terra Silva. and have been studying plants for about six years now.

Amy Parrish (04:51)
And this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is because we were talking about your herbalism and your study and thinking about how medical institutions know and what sort of not allowed to know about our bodies.

Jen (05:00)
Thank you.

Amy Parrish (05:18)
and about our health and about things that are happening with us.

Jen (05:25)
Yeah.

Amy Parrish (05:25)
And it

was just for me, it was just so interesting to hear you talking about, you know, what you're studying and what it means to you. And so I'm kind of curious just about how being in herbalism school has shifted your ideas about what you feel like you know about healing.

Jen (05:51)
Yeah, that's such a good question. I think so I came to the plants in a period of really heavy grief. I had lost my dad. I had a number of other traumatic experiences and I have always had, I was thinking about this this morning since I was probably 11. I have had some kind of

health issue that's always been a little bit challenging to diagnose and treat. I've had migraines, I've had ⁓ muscular skeletal pain, I've just had a number of things. And so I've always been interested in medicine, ⁓ not just to heal myself, but I actually... ⁓

I had thought about going to medical school for a long time. I majored in psychology and biology in school. And at some point realized I was not a fan of the way our system is set up, both on the side of the clinician and the patient. ⁓ I think because I'm somebody who has had a lot of unexplained

health conditions, I've always been looking for answers and been really frustrated with, you know, just, I guess, the lack of knowledge ⁓ about chronic conditions. And when I started to study plants, it's such a different way of learning. I mean, it takes a while to sit with a plant.

and really understand the plant and understand what it's doing in your body. ⁓ The first plant that really kind of knocked on my door, so to speak, was lemon balm. It is a weedy and abundant plant that had taken over my yard. And I was in this season of really heavy grief. And one day I thought, you know, this is here. Let me try this. And it was an instant ⁓

uplifting experience. was like, it was like a hug and a mug, you know, it was just this kind of gentle brightening support that I've never experienced from anything. At a time where I was really missing my dad and I felt like, wow, the land that I'm tending is trying to support me is trying to talk to me. ⁓

And we've lived in this house for a long time, but that started a really different kind of relationship with the land that I'm on. And it was way more reciprocal. I think that I started to develop this way of knowing that involved my whole body, my senses, just a different kind of understanding that.

I couldn't get from books and then someone like you who loves to read, was, you know, it was, ⁓ it's really hard to articulate. It's really hard to put into words how impactful that experience was, partly because it is a slower way of knowing too. And there's a lot of time where you're ⁓ in that phase of understanding.

Amy Parrish (09:12)
You

Jen (09:38)
⁓ of kind of letting knowledge sort of seep into your body versus, you know, going to a book and looking it up, which I also love to do. But this, to me, like broadly, I will say that herbalism is a great compliment to much of Western medicine that's really more like emergency focused, right? And so you.

We definitely need it. ⁓ don't, you know, I'm not somebody who ⁓ doesn't want to look to Western medicine at all. I just think for people like me who have more complicated ⁓ chronic issues, we need another kind of knowing. We need a different kind of medicine.

Amy Parrish (10:29)
Yeah, I it's so cool because I mean I thought of many things while you were talking that

just the land and being in relationship with your healing and with what you are taking to help you heal and the slowness of it is so much different than this very clinical, cold, very... ⁓

It's not individual, even though it's.

kind of seems like it says that it is. You have your own doctor's appointment, but then you're like, ⁓ and this is the BMI, or this is what your blood pressure is supposed to be.

Jen (11:18)
Right.

Right, right. And, you know, as an autistic person with ADHD, it's like that we're always held to some other standard of how we're supposed to be or how our health, our bodies are supposed to feel instead of understanding our own baseline or what feels good for our individual bodies. And I think with medicine as its practice,

Here, one thing that frustrates me is sort of this ⁓ assertion that it is objective and ⁓ evidence-based, but we know that clinical studies, that trials are generally run on young, white, able-bodied men, and I am not that. So ⁓ the idea that medications that might work

for a very small population could be extrapolated to the wider populace ⁓ is really frustrating, I think. And I really wanted something that would slow down, that would take its time in knowing me. pattern recognition takes time. And I think even though many doctors I've had

really great doctors, but they have like five minutes with me, right? it's just, again, it's more like, like I want someone to call if I break a bone or need, you know, some sort of life-saving surgery, but I also want to have more agency and autonomy in kind of running experiments on myself and figuring out what makes me feel good in my body. And it definitely takes time.

Amy Parrish (13:25)
Yeah, and it's a both and. It's both are useful and the exclusivity of doing things one way and there not being room for another way to do it, it just almost feels like we're missing out.

Jen (13:50)
We are, no, that's such a good point. And I think it can go either way, right? Like you can have folks who may work in more so-called alternative healthcare that really demonize physicians. that's also, you know, it has its other risks and it's missing part of like this broader sense of knowing. ⁓ And...

It's interesting, like if I can nerd out for a minute, the Flexner report was ⁓ put together and I think it was like 1910 by this ⁓ man, I think Abraham Flexner, who was commissioned by Carnegie ⁓ to evaluate all of the medical schools in the United States and kind of

Amy Parrish (14:20)
Yeah, please do.

Jen (14:45)
rate them based on how closely they followed a very specific kind of so-called evidence-based medicine. ⁓ And as a result, many schools that taught herbalism and other healing modalities alongside of what we would now consider Western medicine were shut down.

⁓ And I mean, you can feel that echo today, right? Like someone with no institutional knowledge goes through and shuts a whole bunch of things down and ⁓ that knowledge is lost or goes underground. And what happened was that many practitioners, many indigenous women of color were shut out of their livelihood. ⁓

ways of knowing were hidden and ⁓ ridiculed. And at one point it was illegal to practice certain kinds of indigenous medicine. ⁓ And the intent was to have medicine be practiced by wealthy white men. It was very much intended to gatekeep. And yes, they talked about wanting to standardize things and

make sure that that practices were actually healing, which I get, but they went way too far. ⁓ And so my feeling is like we've never really practiced medicine in its entirety, what it could be. You know, we've, we've made great strides with ⁓ vaccines and medications and like imagine if that were routinely practiced with

herbalism or like with these other ways of knowing it would look so much different, I think.

Amy Parrish (16:40)
I agree with you. It's so fascinating to me the industrialization of the medical community and losing all of the knowledge from people who have been practicing with the land and with nature. And then,

when you said practicing medicine, reminded me of when, you know, I had osteoarthritis in my right hip and nobody, you know, I'm, I'm in my forties. We're not going to replace your hip. That's not the way we do things. And then I found an orthopedist who was actually practicing medicine and is like, Oh yeah, we can do this for you. We'll do it. And it, it will be great. And

Jen (17:21)
Right? Right?

Amy Parrish (17:38)
you'll be the you'll the hip will probably outlive you that's all of that about you don't replace hips in people in their 40s that's old that's not the way it is now i replace hips in teenagers

Jen (17:57)
Right, yeah.

Amy Parrish (17:57)
and he's

practicing medicine, he's practicing.

Jen (18:01)
Right, right, and he's, you know, relying on ways of knowing that are responsive and dynamic and change with new information rather than we learned it this way, we need to do it this way until the end of time. Which, you know, if you say that it sounds ridiculous, right? Like you, I think, ⁓ I was thinking about just the larger concept.

of knowing and why in our culture we seem to push people to be so sure and to never change when it's nonsensical. know, people learn things and pivot and go in new directions and it's great, like all the time. I, you know, you and I have had conversations and when you're curious and ask questions about something, I love it. Like it's just.

joyful. It's wonderful to talk to somebody who's curious. And you also receive my questions. And I know that that's been so healing because my questions have not always been well received. You know? Yeah.

Amy Parrish (19:13)
same.

Yeah,

well, you're making such a good point about the certainty, the sameness. what is it that makes certainty and sameness feel so important?

Jen (19:34)
I feel like it's really bound with hierarchy, you know, like we are kind of hierarchy obsessed and people feel like if they don't know something, it's going to give up some of their position, so to speak. ⁓ And I feel like that notion is instilled so early. Like I remember being, was in third grade and we started learning.

French really early, maybe like in first grade, and we were learning a song. And I kept saying, what does this mean? Like, what does this mean? And my teacher was so frustrated with me. She was like, Jennifer, just sing it. you know, I'm like that. And I, you know, was kind of the first, the first thing I can remember that really started me to shut down, to stop.

asking questions, can remember ⁓ pretending that I knew things because I thought I should, you know, like I wouldn't feel safe to ask questions. And that journey back to being inquisitive and admitting what I don't know has been really wonderful. And I would say that I feel like now when someone

presents information that makes me reconsider something that even I was really sure about. I'm like, this is great. Like there's this whole thing that I get to go learn about now. And I wish everyone would feel that comfortable, you know?

Amy Parrish (21:14)
Yeah, me too. I have always been so interested in everything. Like, I wanna know, I wanna know. And when you ask questions and then the adult doesn't know, then you're seen as disrespectful. And the same thing happens, when you go like to the doctor and maybe you wanna ask.

a bunch of questions and know what they're doing and know what they're talking about and not just be shuffled through.

Jen (21:51)
Right, right. And it feels, think, because some people are still sort of stuck in those ideas about questions being negative, you know, it's really not well received. And I felt like I had to preface it like I know that you know a lot. I still have a question. And yeah, it can it can feel

Amy Parrish (22:12)
Right.

Jen (22:20)
like navigating some sort of hidden, you know, minefield when you're just trying to understand. Or for me, I get from some, or I should say like I have had this experience where I've had doctors or other healthcare practitioners say like, wow, you do a lot of research and you ask a lot of questions and I'm never sure how to take that.

Because part of me wants to ask like, am I not supposed to, you know, like, what are you, what are you saying? And does that mean that most people just, you know, aren't curious or more, maybe they don't feel safe, you know, to ask questions.

Amy Parrish (23:06)
Totally. Totally. It makes me think that like...

We're kind of taught this version of knowledge that is very mechanical and certain. And then if you pull in indigenous healing and more natural ways of working with your body, it's like living knowledge.

Jen (23:39)
Right, right, right. And that's one of the reasons I really was drawn to herbalism because it's like this opportunity to run experiments on my own body. And I got long COVID, I got COVID the first time in March of 2023. And that, we...

We still don't know a ton about COVID. We know more certainly now than we did in 2020. ⁓ But it was really an opportunity to do a lot of my own research and to exist in a space where ⁓ there is so much unknown. There is so much that even highly trained physicians, they just don't know because it's newer.

You know, and that was an interesting and sometimes scary place to be.

Amy Parrish (24:44)
Yeah, especially when you're you need to turn to people who are are ostensibly know and they don't know.

Jen (24:56)
Right, right. Then it feels like I'm navigating this completely on my own. know, and there is some great information out there. There is some really ⁓ dangerous information out there and it can be challenging to know right away ⁓ what sources are the best.

I actually bought the library membership at one of my kids' universities so I could go look at studies, you know, because that knowledge is gate-kept. I mean, a lot of those, I have strong feelings about a lot of studies which are publicly funded and yet, you know, they're generally behind like paid memberships or just the purview of ⁓ folks.

involved with specific universities and I get it but it's frustrating as someone who's trying to feel like they have more autonomy with their health and honestly, it's just curious sometimes like I think bodies are fascinating. And I yeah, I love I love learning more.

Amy Parrish (26:15)
Yeah, and.

there's why not, why not have a collective knowledge? If, you're not, mean, capitalism means that we, you know, you have to like, you have to have your proprietary blah, blah, proprietary blah, blah, blah. And this is only you and then you can sell it and then you can make money off of it. And, that's interesting. Is that part of the reason why

Jen (26:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Amy Parrish (26:48)
herbalism is considered sort of. ⁓

Jen (26:53)
alternative or...yeah.

Amy Parrish (26:53)
alternative or not

mainstream.

Jen (26:58)
I think so. mean, I think when, ⁓ you know, when that Flexner report came out, when medical schools started to change how they taught things, ⁓ they did sort of move ⁓ the idea of who could be a doctor, who could practice medicine, even as an herbalist. I can't practice medicine, right? I'm just educating people.

⁓ And there are a lot of like you can get in trouble for practicing medicine without a license. So ⁓ moving healing to like a paid system ⁓ comes with a ton of negative consequences. And I think when you when I've seen people try to have this conversation, it's like people want to strip

the nuance, you know, I am definitely not saying clinical trials or evidence-based practices are bad. think they're great. It's just, I think it's incomplete.

Amy Parrish (28:03)
Yeah, that's really the whole point. And it's kind of, I'm so glad you said that, because it's kind of the whole point of why I'm doing this series about, you know, the myth of knowing and like how we're performing this certainty, but also there's more to know.

Jen (28:04)
Yeah.

There's so much more to know. I think I was reading a book about different species and how they have different ways of sensing and knowing. ⁓ And, you know, when you come upon sort of the idea that things are purely objective, well,

They're not, they can't be because deciding to measure a particular variable with a particular instrument that you compare against some kind of standard like that, that is based on values, right? I mean, we see that unfortunately with the long history of autism research as being very deficit based. mean, people had things in mind, it wasn't so-called objective.

But this book I was reading talked about, think it's called Umwelt which is like the idea that each being has a different sort of sensory experience. I hope I'm saying that right. ⁓ And I was, I think it's U-M-W-E-L-T. ⁓ Yes, yes. ⁓ But like, just the idea that, you know, you see a flower.

Amy Parrish (29:27)
Will you spell it?

Yeah, ⁓

Jen (29:42)
Right? And the way that I see it versus the way a hummingbird sees it versus the way a bee sees it, like, they're all valid and the flower's definitely there, but our interpretation or our knowing of it is all really different based on, you know, our physical sensing capacities. And I think that that's really hard to convey in like a short sound bite. Right?

Amy Parrish (30:12)
Totally. Well, and it's the complexity. This is something I think about all the time is how nature itself, like, and we are animals. And so nature itself is so complex. And when you try to standardize something that's so complex, you can't, you can't.

Jen (30:12)
Yeah.

You can't, right, you can't,

right, right. I think, and I think that's a very, my understanding is that that's a very like Western idea, this idea of separating things, mind, body, ⁓ and you can't take someone out of their environment, right? Like we don't exist in vacuum. So when you're looking at something as complicated as health,

It's not just, you know, that someone is having digestive issues, but maybe it's that they haven't quite digested their grief, or maybe they don't have the support systems, or maybe, you know, the ways that they're eating ⁓ is not conducive to making them feel better. But like, it's so individual that I, yeah, I think that that's something that can get lost.

Amy Parrish (31:33)
because we intellectualize what our bodies are experiencing instead of being able to feel and sense what's happening. I mean, how many times have I gone to the, you know, when I've gone to the doctor and they're like, rate your pain. And I'm like, well, I don't know. What is pain? Like, because what's painful to me?

might not be painful to you or maybe I could be like in excruciating pain but it's like a two because I have a higher tolerance for like how can what?

Jen (32:09)
Right,

right. And, and, you know, I'm, I've had that experience too of like, then I think about it too long. Well, is it, is, would a 10 be like the worst thing I've ever experienced? Well, but what if I've never experienced a 10 yet? Like, I don't know. And I, I, I think as somebody who I detached from my ways of knowing, because I kind of understood they were wrong, ⁓ that it's taken a long time to get back.

to trusting my body. And I heard a lot of people have similar experiences of conveying an autistic experience of pain. But, you know, when I was in labor with my second child, I went to the doctor because I didn't think I was that far along yet. And I remember he sort of checked on me. hadn't, you know, done an exam yet, but he's like,

you're in there reading a book, you're probably fine. I'll be right back. Well, when he finally got to me, I was eight centimeters. And he, the look on his face was like, but you were reading a book. was like, yes, I, I go in within, like when I'm in pain, I go, I get lost in the, you know, infinite space in my inner being. That's how I manage it. And that probably looks different from.

what he was trained to recognize, you know, so his map of knowing didn't match up with what I was expressing. And it can, I mean, everything is fine. You know, this child is now 22, but it can be dangerous, you know?

Amy Parrish (33:52)
Yeah, well also, if even if you had said

Even if you had said, you know, like, I'm in pain, but you're still reading the book because it doesn't match what the image is of what someone who is at that stage of labor would be, then you don't get believed.

Jen (34:20)
Right, right. So it's like another data point for people dismissing your knowing, right? And I think that the cumulative impact of that is like, it's hard to convey, you know, how that, it just took, I will say personally, like it took me a long time to reconnect.

Amy Parrish (34:48)
Yeah, and that's, mean, that's something I'm working on now is getting back to my feeling my body and feeling my senses and trust and getting them to trust me again.

Jen (35:03)
Yes, yeah, that's such a great way of putting it, getting your body to trust you too. Because for so long you've been like, no, you're not in pain. No, you're not feeling that. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. Yes. Yes, I'm on fire, but don't worry. Just yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Amy Parrish (35:15)
It's fine.

It's no big deal.

It's okay. I don't want to inconvenience anyone. It's, it'll be fine. Shh. You just be quiet. Well,

it's something else that I wonder about being ⁓ neurodivergent, in particular and sensitivity and well, and all neurodivergence really the, the, the, the depth of sensitivity that gets shut down.

because it's inconvenient.

Jen (35:54)
Yes, yes, that's such a good point. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Amy Parrish (35:59)
And so,

and that's what I think about. Like when I think about herbalism, I think about inviting back the natural sense of yourself.

Jen (36:11)
Yeah, yes, because you, mean, my experience with plant medicine, it's a whole body experience, you know, and ⁓ the way plants interact with each other ends up with this, ⁓ you know, there's synergy when you start adding different plants together and then with the way they work in a person's body. ⁓ And I do think...

just engaging all of my senses with the smell and the taste and the texture and the way it feels, know, even the words that we use in my particular school is, you know, we talk about like energetics of plants and tissue states and it's just so complex. And I think it really,

It feels like such a great match with the way my body mind works anyway. think it's, I'm, I'm really curious if many people have explored in particular autism and herbalism because it seems like I meet a lot of autistic folks who are interested, who are studying or who are already established herbalists. And, ⁓ it's been such a.

like a revolutionary experience for me, the way that plants have changed my body. I haven't seen a lot of literature yet on it, but I'm really curious to talk to more and more people who maybe are starting to notice that too.

Amy Parrish (38:03)
What do you mean when you say that?

Jen (38:06)
I feel like, I don't know if it's true to say herbalism is uniquely suited to autistic folks, but I will say that there's something there between an individual or any person who has like a heightened sensory experience and plant medicine, which can require or guess benefit from

⁓ a deeper perception or a deeper sensitivity to the impacts in your body. Because I will say for me, when I've some, and this is not at all knocking pharmaceuticals, some of them are life-saving, but for me, often my experience is it's way too much. It's too strong, it's just, you know, it's... ⁓

It doesn't seem to play well with my brain or body. And I have the opposite experience with plants, even though not every plant medicine is the right one for me. It's a just more subtle and gentle kind of nudge. you know, we're not for you, but this other plant is.

Amy Parrish (39:27)
Okay, this might get tangly and complicated, we're gonna see how it goes. I have been hearing lately people talking about curing autism. And then what you're saying made me think about the things that you are getting support from plants with.

Jen (39:32)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Amy Parrish (39:57)
Are those things that are just environmental? ⁓

effects that the plants can soothe for you because it's not like you're trying to cure something but that you're trying to support it so you can exist more easily in the environment that we're in.

Jen (40:24)
Sure, yeah. ⁓ I am always ⁓ very troubled when I hear people say they want to cure autism. I think, again, that's like a really nuanced conversation, right? Because for sure, there are times when my heightened sensory experience feels bad. You know, like if I'm in an

environment where I can't get out of or the lights are too bright or that kind of thing. And maybe if I had to be in that space for work or whatever it is, you know, might it be nice to have something that kind of turned the volume down a little bit? Sure. But I would never want to give up the flip side, which is what I get more often from plants, which is like just taking in the beauty of

plants and like listening to them speak, being in relationship is something that I feel like my heightened sensory experience helps me with, you know, and it's been a way to get reconnected to sensory joy. And I

without, you know, engaging in toxic positivity, I feel like that piece is seldom talked about again, you know, when we were talking about autism research and focusing on deficits, there's hardly any research on how a heightened sensory experience can lead to joy, even though it seems so obvious. Like, of course, if you're a kind of person that experiences

⁓ maybe like pain or negative things. The other side of that is that you also experience the joy in heightened way.

Amy Parrish (42:25)
Yes, totally. And the emphasis that we put on, this is good. So this is what we're always working for. But also the things that are painful or bad are not bad. Like it's a full experience. always think of it as when you're, it's a whole circle. there's not,

Jen (42:26)
Yeah, yeah.

I hate this. Right.

Amy Parrish (42:55)
light without dark.

Jen (42:56)
Exactly, exactly. And I remember ⁓ when I was really getting into trying to heal some old trauma. I can't remember the website. If I do, promise I will share it. But it was talking about like understanding maybe help wasn't the word, but that sort of mentally healthy folks for lack of a better word, experience the range.

You know, it's not that you want to kind of be flatlined all the time. It's that you want to be able to experience the range of human existence. And I am just curious if right now, you know, considering the many harms happening to our earth, to our climate, like might people with more heightened sensory experiences

have some more insight into things that might help or, you know what I'm saying, like being in more of a communion with the more than human world. ⁓ I know that really more seriously tending to my land makes me feel... ⁓

more like I have a different knowing, you know, like I have a different kind of investment, not in the capitalistic sense, but just because I feel it, you know, when, ⁓ like when we had that really bad drought last year, gosh, every time I went outside, I just felt so just despondent. But it motivated me to think about ways.

Can I put this plant here so it gets a little more shade? And can we put these plants that maybe need a little less water? You know, this kind of thing ⁓ that maybe I wouldn't have thought about if I hadn't spent so much time sort of getting to know them.

Amy Parrish (45:05)
And the relationship, when you're in a relationship with your land and with your medicine, that you learn about, like you learn about plants and you learn about what they do. And then you,

It's not like you're just, well, I take one of these every day. You, you, you're more thoughtful about what your sense of self is and also what you need, what can be given. And then you're in a conversation with the plants that are supporting you versus just

Jen (45:37)
Exactly, yes.

Amy Parrish (46:02)
you know, another bottle and popping another pill, there's, it just feels so reciprocal.

Jen (46:12)
It is. Yeah, it feels very reciprocal and it's such a more, it's a deeper and wider knowledge because I, in my practice, I try to use weedy and abundant plants that grow well near me. ⁓ And I think it's really easy to get caught up in like, what's the hot herb that everyone's using. And that leads to ⁓

know, decimation of certain plant populations. So I don't want to do that. I want to see, really pay attention to what grows really easily in my yard and takes over. And can I use that, you know, because there's lots to go around. And I think this summer in particular, ⁓ my garden has really taken off and I've had the best time watching my

more than human kin. You know, I've had butterflies and birds of all kinds and bees, you know, and just kind of seeing what do they like and, and, you know, what feels good for them or what is, is sustaining for, for that wildlife as well. And sometimes when my work gets really heavy.

you know, I'll just kind of open the front door and watch and wait for the hummingbirds to come. And there's a lot of things I've planted this year that I haven't used. You know, I haven't taken any for myself because I just got the message like something else needs this more than you do right now. So we're just gonna let it flourish and... ⁓

nourish the wildlife around you. that's been, it's just been a really joyful experience too.

Amy Parrish (48:19)
Well, it makes you part of the world instead of that nature is just something that's here for you to take. You become part of your home.

Jen (48:37)
Right, right, right. I am part of my land in ways that I haven't been before. You know, we've grown some veggies in the past, but I regularly drink lemon balm tea from my garden. So at this point, like my actual body, my structure is a part of, know, some of those building blocks come from my land and it really is.

a different relationship, a different kind of knowing to get back to that, then I could have had any other way. ⁓ So yeah, feels, it's just, it's just been really fun.

Amy Parrish (49:24)
And it's also, it's something that gets you into your body.

Jen (49:32)
Yes, yeah. And I think, you the other thing that I've been learning about recently is a lot of the ⁓ chronic conditions that can show up with autism or, you know, kind of co-occur. ⁓ It's made my medical history make a lot of sense, you know, for the first time. And thinking about...

some herbal ways to support that. Like I have ⁓ hypermobility issues, I've been diagnosed with POTS, ⁓ I've had migraines forever because I have long COVID. I have those chronic fatigue ⁓ symptoms where if I push too hard, then I will crash. ⁓ And ⁓ also like mast cell.

issues that when I look back at my health history, it all makes sense. Like it's all this kind of of things that are in relation to each other. But because I didn't have this zoomed out knowledge, I didn't know and my doctors didn't know that there was a common theme here. And I would imagine that's true for a lot of other autistic folks.

as well.

Amy Parrish (50:59)
Yeah, because I just thought of this and you tell me if this is true or not. But when you're, when you're, you know, when you go to the doctor and then you're, I'm going to the orthopedist or I'm going to the, this person specializes in this part of the body. And it seems like that herbalism is a whole body picture.

Jen (51:26)
Absolutely. I mean, that's what we're taught all the time to look at the bigger picture and to find the pattern, which you know, I love a lot of our clinical studies, you know, will give us ⁓ a range of symptoms and ⁓ experiences and really just digging into someone's whole network. I think it's ⁓

It makes me think of, I'm pretty sure with Sophie Strand who talks about spider web consciousness, how a spider's consciousness like extends out into its web. And I think about that with us, you know, how we're all right, like we're part of our environment and our bodies are too. Like I think our bodies extend out in some ways. And herbalism ⁓ is my first experience with a healing modality that looks at

Amy Parrish (52:07)
Yes.

Jen (52:24)
all of that. And the way that my teachers talk about it too is like herbalists as part of a healthcare team. So, you know, something that I'm interested in doing once I graduate is like helping folks navigate these bigger systems and bigger pictures and see if we can find a pattern to what's going on to try to bring, you know,

maybe not a cure, like I live with things for which there is no cure, but healing in the sense of some ease. I know I still experience some symptoms and some pain, but it's like that suffering component has been ⁓ really helped. And really, I've found a lot of ease even within a body that still has symptoms.

if that makes sense.

Amy Parrish (53:24)
It makes total sense because you go from trying to fix yourself to taking care of yourself. It's two different things.

Jen (53:34)
Yeah, and finding the things that bring ease. know, accepting chronic illness is incredibly challenging in this society because many messages you get are like, did something wrong. You're not eating the perfect diet. You didn't exercise the perfect way. You don't take the perfect supplements. You have trauma, which is manifesting in your symptoms. And if only you think, you know, you

you thought positive, happy thoughts, then you wouldn't hurt anymore. know, you're not exactly, exactly, you can get the message you're not trying hard enough. And that is incredibly demoralizing. But I was in that spot for years, if not decades. I kept trying to eat better and exercise more and make sure I got, you know, sunshine.

Amy Parrish (54:09)
Yeah, you're not trying hard enough.

Jen (54:29)
And illness and disability are a natural variance of human existence. This idea of a body with no challenges and no pain, like that's fiction. We all will experience disability if we live long enough, ⁓ but we live in a society that pretends that's not true. And so if you end up in that...

that spot or you inhabit it for whatever reason, you can feel like you're doing something wrong. But for me, like in my healing journey, learning plant medicine helped me accept, you know, this is who I am. This is what my body does and can do and how to live with it instead of try to fix it or get it to be someone else's body. ⁓

Amy Parrish (55:25)
Yeah,

that's what I was just thinking. You're living your actual life. The one that is yours right now, not the fantasy of what it could be like if only.

Jen (55:30)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right, and that ⁓ there can be some grief for sure. Like I miss running for sure. But also ⁓ I appreciate things, other things, because I've had to slow down. You know, because I have afternoons sometimes that I have to get back in bed and work from bed. And I spend a lot of time looking out my window at trees and noticing.

you know, that maybe just the first hints of fall with some leaves are changing. That might not have been something I noticed, you know, 10 years ago when my health was at a different place. And that doesn't mean I'm always happy about where I am, but I do think that I have reached a place of acceptance.

Amy Parrish (56:36)
And that you don't have to, you don't ever have to get over it. you don't, what if you don't have to ever stop missing running?

Jen (56:49)
Right, right, right. Like living with that, you know, kind of like the way I'll never stop missing my dad, you know, that that grief like lives in me. And I don't know if you've ever seen that. It's sort of like an image of how people think grief is. And there's a picture of a ball in the container and the and in each image, the ball gets smaller and smaller. But

Amy Parrish (56:58)
Right.

Jen (57:17)
then it sort of juxtaposed how grief actually is, which is the container gets bigger, right? So like the grief is always there, but you grow around it. And grief is a ⁓ big reason I came to plant medicine too, because my dad and I were very close. ⁓ When I lost him, it felt like the grief was bigger than my body could hold, you know? So turning to plants.

Amy Parrish (57:23)
Yeah.

Jen (57:46)
I went to the mountains a lot because I felt like I needed something huge and strong and sturdy to kind of help me hold that. Yeah, so it's, think with chronic illness and disability too, there is sort of that continuous grappling with ⁓ where your body is, maybe where you'd like it to be. And certainly that's not even

taking into consideration the ableism so rampant, especially right now.

Amy Parrish (58:21)
At first, I just love the connection to the mountains, like losing your father and then going to the mountains is just such a, just the sense of that for me feels very supportive and caring and giving yourself the presence of nature in a big

I guess a big sturdy way.

Jen (58:54)
Yeah, yeah. He was a big personality in a good way. And it felt, you know, I think a lot of autistic people especially can relate to when you have someone in your life who is unquivocally supportive. My dad always just loved me for who I was and that

wasn't something I experienced, you know, necessarily the rest of communities or society. And so it was like losing my rock or at least one of them, you know, and yeah, it felt really big.

Amy Parrish (59:44)
Yeah, and if that like that sense of person being a support and it almost feels like you took that that he loved you for who you were and and now you with your herbalism have that energy.

Jen (1:00:11)
Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. I was watching something that talked about when you lose a parent, like they can live on in you in some way. And I definitely feel that, you know, along with my partner and my kids, I feel very grateful to have a lot of support now. And I don't know if you've experienced this too, but I think some of it is

being able to recognize it. I was so afraid for so long of like doing the wrong thing or, you know, the messages I might get about the way I move through the world that I didn't always recognize the support in my life.

Amy Parrish (1:00:55)
Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, 100%. And it's interesting because the ways that we define support is other people. But some of the biggest support I've gotten is from like a tree. Her name was Margaret that I would run by and I would hug Margaret every time.

Jen (1:01:09)
Mm-hmm.

race.

Right, right. Yes, that's an excellent point. And I had a similar experience after I went through like the stacked grief, you know, the a bunch of things happened. I remember taking really long walks. This is right before I got COVID and making friends with a Mama Duck. You know, I saw her every day and she had a bunch of ducklings and I feel like, you know, I would

Amy Parrish (1:01:23)
because Margaret was my tree.

Jen (1:01:52)
walk by and sometimes she'd be really frustrated because you know, the expression trying to get your ducks in a row like it actually comes from and she'd be like, quack quack, quack. I feel you. Yeah, sometimes it's hard getting those ducklings swimming, you know, the way you want them to. But I felt a kinship for sure. ⁓ And I think that

Amy Parrish (1:01:59)
Yes.

Jen (1:02:20)
I'm so glad you brought that up. think that kind of got me started on the path back to myself and living more authentically and finding supportive human relationships. was that understanding that the earth and plants and the more than human world offer love and support as well. You know, that was really impactful as I...

sort of started to integrate my autistic identity and heal and integrate grief.

Amy Parrish (1:02:58)
Yeah, it's Jen that almost like I just felt this well of emotion just thinking about how nature is so supportive and understanding and is always there for you. And that I mean, nature does what it wants. That's to be sure.

Jen (1:03:24)
Right.

Amy Parrish (1:03:26)
But that

Jen (1:03:26)
Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:03:26)
also then there's a wildness in it that is not certain, that is not same

Jen (1:03:37)
Right, right, especially now, you know, and I think anyone who ⁓ sort of gets enters these relationships with nature of the more than human world, there's also heartbreak in it. I mean, we all see what's going on, but to me, you know, it's part of it.

It's worth it. It's part of being in relationship with anything, the joy and the grief.

Amy Parrish (1:04:11)
Yeah, yeah, the aliveness of it. Yeah. What did we miss? That's my favorite question to ask at the end of interviews. What did we miss?

Jen (1:04:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For sure.

What are we doing there?

I feel like we covered a lot. can't think of anything. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk ⁓ about some of my favorite things with one of my favorite people. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. I think maybe like one thing that I'm, I just thought of is, you know, the whole sort of journey to understanding autism and being a little more.

Amy Parrish (1:04:41)
Yeah. Yes. ⁓

Jen (1:04:58)
comfortable with myself. When I heard you on a podcast, and I thought, my gosh, I have to talk to this woman. I don't think that I know I don't think I would have done it like, four or five years ago, because I thought, is she gonna think I'm really weird, you know, and I thought, Well, I am kind of and so what? Like, the worst thing that happens is

Amy Parrish (1:05:07)
That is so wild.

you

Jen (1:05:25)
She's not interested in chatting and you know, it's fine. ⁓ But then thankfully you were, know, and had such great conversations. But I think healing and ⁓ not just with plants, but also understanding myself better has given me that confidence to try things and exist in that space of not knowing what might happen ⁓ and take risks.

Amy Parrish (1:05:56)
Yeah, like because you're responsible for your own, like you have knowing about your own healing and as you have your own knowing, you trust yourself. And then when you trust yourself, you can do things like hear someone on a podcast and be like, that person's interesting. I'm gonna send them an email. ⁓ look, guess what? Now we're like,

Jen (1:06:20)
Right.

Amy Parrish (1:06:24)
we find out we're so alike and we're friends. Like it's just, it's just such an amazing thing that, that, that knowing is like the myth of knowing is things are just this one way. And then when you step outside of that and go to like not knowing and letting that be what guides you.

Jen (1:06:53)
Absolutely. Yeah, I was reading a similar passage in a book. just started Staying With the Trouble. And one thing she says is like, be sort of very cautious and worried about someone who says they have the answer right now in these times. And likewise, be cautious around people who say there is no answer. Right? Like, it's not either of those extremes. It's some way that

we don't know yet. We don't know what was going to happen or maybe the best way forwards, but that doesn't mean we can't try things and continue to be in conversation. And to your point earlier about like, why can't we all collaborate, you know, and share thoughts about what might work or what might be the medicine our planet needs.

Amy Parrish (1:07:48)
Yeah, what is it we're trying to do? And then, you know, what can be done together?

Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for a wonderful as always conversation. gonna, I'm gonna stop the recording.

Jen (1:08:08)
Thank

Thank

you.

Amy Parrish (1:08:15)
Did I stop it? I don't think I did. Okay.

Jen (1:08:17)
I don't think so...

Amy Parrish (1:08:22)
Thank you so much to Jen Andrew for sharing her insights and experiences about what happens when the body resists certainty, when medicine doesn't have clear answers. And when we begin to explore healing as something beyond control, beyond sameness, beyond the myth that knowing is the only way. I'm so glad she could join me in this conversation and I'm looking forward to having her back to share more. Healing isn't a straight line.

and it doesn't always come from the sources we expect. Sometimes it's curiosity, connection, and openness to the unknown that guide us the most.

If you're interested in exploring your own path to healing, curiosity, and self-discovery, I offer one-on-one coaching through Rebelling You can check out my website, rebelling.me. Y'all, thank you so much for listening.

and I'll see you next time.