Being Understood with Keltie McLaren

In this episode of Rebelling, I’m joined by certified ADHD coach Keltie McLaren, who works with values-driven independent creatives to help them stop fighting their brains and start building systems that actually work for them.

We talk about what it means to understand ourselves, others, and the spaces between us. We talk about trust, how understanding isn’t a destination, but something we practice: through vulnerability, curiosity, and reflection, rather than control, performance, or self-criticism. 

The heart of this conversation is when we recognize that real understanding is relational, not performative. It doesn’t come from perfect clarity or knowing what someone else wants you to say, but from being seen as you are, even in discomfort or uncertainty. We change understanding from a private self-improvement project into something connective, dynamic, and vulnerable. 

Understanding isn’t all about achieving clarity. It’s about being in the ongoing conversation with ourselves, with others, and with difference. Because you don’t connect by making people understand you. You connect by letting yourself be understood.

Where to find Keltie:

newsletter: adhdembraced.substack.com

web: adhd-embraced.com
instagram: @adhd.embraced

linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keltie/

Transcript

Amy Parrish (00:44)
Hey, y'all, welcome back to Rebelling. Today, I'm talking with Keltie McLaren, who is a Chicago-based certified ADHD coach. We got connected via email, and in our first Zoom meeting, we went right to the deep conversation place we both love, even though we just met. The last time we talked, we randomly dropped into a thought-provoking conversation about understanding that made me want to share some of our thoughts here with you.

So I invited Keltie to be a guest. We often imagine understanding as something we achieve, like an endpoint where confusion dissolves. But maybe real understanding is not a state. It's a practice, something we inhabit, revisit, and revise as we keep relating to the world. Keltie and I talk about how understanding of self

others and shared experience develops through vulnerability, curiosity, and reflection, instead of trying to control the ways we're perceived, performing who we think we're supposed to be, or treating ourselves like a problem to solve. True understanding is not a performance or a prize. It's an act of relational rebelling, choosing interdependence over isolation,

curiosity over certainty, and mutual sense-making over control. That changes understanding from a private, isolated self-improvement project into something relational, dynamic, and compassionate. Because you don't connect by trying to make people understand you. You connect by letting yourself be understood.

Here's our conversation.

Amy Parrish (02:44)
we'll just start talking and then when I edit, I'll figure out where I wanna, where is a good place for us to start, if that's okay with you.

Keltie (02:55)
That sounds great.

Amy Parrish (02:56)
do you remember what we were talking about and why we were gonna record this episode?

Keltie (03:04)
I remember like the vibe of our conversation, but I'm like, what was the keyword that got us to where we were Do you remember?

Amy Parrish (03:13)
Yeah,

we were talking about understanding.

Keltie (03:16)
Yes, okay, yes, okay. Yeah, I have the cloud around that, but not the word itself.

Amy Parrish (03:24)
Yeah,

well, and I was, so I'm actually in New Mexico right now. I'm not home. And so I realized, I had all these index cards that I wrote all these things down on that are sitting on my desk in North Carolina.

Keltie (03:30)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yep. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (03:43)
which,

you know, might, we might miss them or we might not.

Keltie (03:48)
Got it. Are you on vacation in New Mexico?

Amy Parrish (03:53)
I ⁓ I'm at my best friend's house and she and her partner are in France for two weeks. And so I flew out last Saturday and visited for a few days and they left on Tuesday and then they'll be gone for two weeks, a little over two weeks. And so I'll be here for a total of three weeks,

Keltie (04:02)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nice,

a change of scenery.

Amy Parrish (04:21)
Yeah, ⁓ totally,

totally different. ⁓ But it's funny to think about like, okay, it's Friday and then next Friday I'll be here and then also the next Friday I'll be here.

Keltie (04:25)
Mm-hmm.

That's a lot of Fridays. It's a long time. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (04:38)
Yeah,

I've never traveled or been away from home for that long before. yeah, it's definitely different.

Keltie (04:49)
All right.

Yeah, what do you like about New Mexico so far?

Amy Parrish (05:00)
it's just, it's just incredibly beautiful. ⁓ It gets really dark here.

Keltie (05:09)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (05:09)
which is

really interesting too. And so I haven't really been anywhere since they've been gone. I'm gonna go to the farmer's market tomorrow and check that out But yeah, it's just totally different. I mean, you're in a city, you know, you're surrounded by stuff and there's just...

Keltie (05:23)
Yeah.

Yeah,

it never gets dark here. Or quiet.

Amy Parrish (05:28)
Yeah, there's nothing. I

mean, there's nothing around. But to walk to the neighbors, it would probably be like a 10 minute walk.

Keltie (05:39)
Yeah, wow, so you really have some space just to yourself there.

Amy Parrish (05:43)
Yeah, which is cool

and also then kind of terrifying at the same time.

Keltie (05:51)
I know that feeling whenever I go somewhere that there's just no one around. always like...

I don't know, you just get used to in a city just having people around all the time and there's something unsettling when suddenly there's not.

Amy Parrish (06:08)
Yeah, there's like, it's so quiet. at my house in Durham, the interstate is right behind me. And so there's constant either just car noise or like big loud, like, backfiery motorcycle stuff. And it's really weird to not have that.

Keltie (06:09)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (06:37)
ambient noise around me.

Keltie (06:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (06:43)
So we'll see how it turns out. I was really, really lonely the first day when they left. I was just, I felt like I was really alone. And so they have two dogs. They have two ⁓ Australian cattle dogs who are amazing. And it's been great to have the dogs as company. But I was really surprised by how ⁓ like kind of gut.

Keltie (06:50)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (07:12)
heart wrenching it was to realize I'm so far from home and I'm all by myself. ⁓ just, it was pretty heavy that first day.

Keltie (07:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I get that. I know that feeling from traveling, but I feel like it also...

make space to kind of connect with yourself in a different way. I hope that that happens. ⁓

Amy Parrish (07:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's interesting that you said that because it makes me think about, I was thinking about this yesterday, how I'm going to understand myself in a whole different way after this time is over. I will have a different experience of myself.

Keltie (08:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (08:10)
I'm so curious about what, I don't know what it's gonna be. I feel like I'm settling into it now and kind of the novel, maybe the novelty will probably wear off by next week and it'll be interesting to see how.

like what I learned about myself over the course of this time.

Keltie (08:39)
Yeah, and you can't know it till you've learned it.

Amy Parrish (08:43)
Mm-mm. Yeah.

And you can guess, but like you still just can't, you can't know until you've learned it.

Keltie (09:00)
Yeah, it's the thing with transformation, right? It's like you can kind of know when it's happening, but you don't know like what the end point is.

Amy Parrish (09:11)
and it can feel.

Like, scary is the word that popped into my head, but it's not like, scary. It's more the...

Keltie (09:27)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (09:31)
It's like an anticipation, but then also what am I going to lose in this process?

Keltie (09:42)
Yeah, like there's a bit of like maybe almost grief coming into it of that letting go feeling.

Amy Parrish (09:53)
or being different.

Keltie (09:57)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (09:57)
than I was

before I got here. Like I will not go home the same person that I arrived as.

Keltie (10:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Maybe grief for the person that you arrived as.

Amy Parrish (10:13)
almost missing her in a way.

Keltie (10:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, our patterns are kind of comforting, Like, mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (10:28)
And that circles me to that understanding part that why we wanted to talk and why I wanted to have you on was understanding and how we understand ourselves. so that, like I'm going to understand myself differently.

Keltie (10:49)
Yeah, yeah, so I don't know is it that you've changed or that you understand yourself differently or is that the same thing?

Amy Parrish (11:00)
I don't know, what do you think? What's the difference if there is one?

Keltie (11:10)
⁓ I don't think you can change how you understand yourself without changing who you are and how you show up. it feels to me like those are two sides of the same coin.

Amy Parrish (11:34)
What is the difference?

I was just trying to think of what it is. ⁓

Keltie (11:52)
⁓

I think the, like I feel like I know how to conceptualize my understanding of myself.

that don't like conceptualizing what myself is is way harder. Like what even is that? What's the like thing? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. So I'm like, does my understanding of myself create myself? Like create the way I show up?

Amy Parrish (12:27)
Uh huh. Yeah, we just went straight there, didn't we? We're like, okay, let's just go really, really esoteric. Yeah. But this is why I wanted to have you on is because...

Keltie (12:36)
Mm-hmm, immediately right off the bat.

Amy Parrish (12:47)
the ability to kind of explore things in this really curious way without ⁓ feeling like we have to say the right thing or there's a ⁓ right answer. In all of our conversations, it's felt like we just build off of ideas without there being rules around them or trying to be right.

Keltie (13:10)
Mm. ⁓

Yeah, I so appreciate that. ⁓ Mm hmm.

Amy Parrish (13:20)
I do too.

And going straight to that place of like, ⁓ does my understanding create myself?

or does myself create the understanding?

Yeah, I don't, I, that's such a...

I don't know, don't, don't, I feel like the self is always here, whether it's understood or not.

Keltie (14:02)
Yeah, I like that. I like that. There's sort of like two ways I can think about self. One is like kind of what you said that, like with that gesture, like always here, each of us is kind of born with an essence that is always there, but gets maybe clouded over by other things like our experiences and our reactions to them. ⁓

But another way that I sometimes think of self, ⁓ which has to do with like some Buddhist practices that I have is like, there's no self. If I try to think about like, okay, what's just me? Well, like on a biological level, I think we have more cells that are microbes that are like not us in our bodies. And also even the cells of our bodies are changing every seven years.

So like, what's the through line, even on a biological level. And then, like, just in terms of who I am and what I believe, it's like, well,

I was raised by specific people. I speak English, so all the concepts that I have are filtered through this language, which I didn't create, is created by someone else. ⁓ Yeah, everything I know is knowledge that I learned from, that someone else created. ⁓ Yeah, like, it's like, what's me then? I don't know, everything, like,

I'm always in flow. I'm this thing that's always in flow that's always interacting with whatever's in my environment. And it would not be this person without countless interactions leading up to this point. just to really, because when you were asking about self, was just like, boy, ⁓ understanding the self, was like, well, I,

Amy Parrish (16:06)
Yeah.

Keltie (16:14)
Like, self is not a straightforward concept to me at all. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (16:17)
is not a thing.

But the way that you say that, it makes me think though that only you are the result of all of those experiences. There's not another being.

Keltie (16:37)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Amy Parrish (16:44)
that has had every single thing happen to them or experience that has happened to you. Like you're the only one.

Keltie (16:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I would agree with that, yeah. It's like completely unique, but also kind of part of everything else at the same time.

Amy Parrish (17:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, it's just like, it's sort of.

It's unique and yet we do, I'm gonna pull that understanding thread back in. We do have shared experience that gives us understanding.

Keltie (17:40)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (17:43)
I mean, it's one of the reasons why we're even sitting here is because we have the shared experience of being neurodivergent.

Keltie (17:44)
Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (17:56)
And so we understand each other in that way.

Keltie (18:06)
Yeah, that's sort of like a concept created by someone else, but that sort of explains, like each of us recognizes a piece of ourselves in this concept of neurodivergence. And then that allows us to, it's like a shortcut maybe to understand some of each other's experience, because I don't know exactly what your experience has been.

And you don't know exactly what mine has been, but I think even when you've like told stories how you felt in certain situations before you were diagnosed, even when you just started telling the story, I just felt so much resonance because I was like, yeah, me too, me too. So that kind of word brought us together. then, um, yeah, like the, it's like a little, uh, a shortcut maybe like

finding the parallels or the mirror.

Amy Parrish (19:06)
and that erases the self.

Keltie (19:09)
Mmm.

Yeah, that's such a nice thing way of thinking about it too, because I mean, we're both coaches and.

Sometimes I feel like the most transformational parts of coaching are when clients realize that they're not the only one who struggles. And same with when I was in coaching or therapy, just realizing like, okay, this is whatever, and I think this goes for anyone, whatever is hard or shameful or just so difficult in your life, there are countless other people.

Amy Parrish (19:31)
Yes.

Keltie (19:51)
experiencing that at any given moment and you're really not alone and you're also like a unique, unrepeatable person but also have so many shared experiences with so many other people at the same time.

Amy Parrish (20:05)
Yes, mean that it's like it's such a good point because

then if you're in self, then you're alone. And then when you have shared experience or shared understanding, you become selves together.

Keltie (20:25)
Hmm.

Yeah, I kind of think of that like core essence of self like

Yes, I think it is different for like, I think each person is unique, but also when you're tapped into that core, you're tapped into something that's connected with everything else. Like that's something because when whenever anyone speaks authentically, it's like everybody else resonates, you know, you can tell even though it's their truth, there's something about that authenticity, that real self. ⁓

that just is connecting. think, I don't know, this is, I almost feel too cheesy to say this, but I think that core self is just really love. At the core of each of us is this loving being.

it's something we can all connect to or that once you're connected into it, you're like automatically connected to everyone. Like when you're connected to your completely unique self, you're automatically connected to everyone.

Amy Parrish (21:41)
Yes, I mean, and I would even take it a little bit further and.

I was just thinking about it as like that essence. I love that idea of that as natural beings.

on a planet that is a natural world. And so everything has that essence. Everything has that essence.

Keltie (22:09)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.

yeah. I agree the birds the trees like yeah ⁓

Amy Parrish (22:17)
All of it.

and then

When we lose that understanding of the, okay, we're just gonna go all the way there, like the oneness of that essence is where we get more alone.

Keltie (22:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (22:44)
So as

soon as we're not part of.

Keltie (22:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, which is making me think of, because I've been thinking about this a lot lately, this is just my lesson for right now, is like the kind of this idea of playing a role. And I think in our last conversation about understanding, maybe we talked about this a little bit. I don't remember exactly how, but ⁓ like presenting yourself and communicating in ways that are sort of like socially prescribed.

Right? And you're doing that in order to avoid being misunderstood to like, because you actually want to be misunderstood, but because you're putting on this like persona, you're, you're lonelier. Like you just said, like you're actually cut off from who you are and therefore you're cut off from everything. And you're kind of like lonely in this. ⁓

in this like presentation of a person who you think other people will like and understand.

Amy Parrish (23:59)
Yeah, we were talking about. ⁓

If you're trying to be understood or

Keltie (24:15)
Yeah, yeah.

Amy Parrish (24:17)
If you're understanding, what was it?

Keltie (24:23)
It's like maybe like trying to make yourself understood. Is that?

Amy Parrish (24:28)
It's yeah, it's something along those lines. if you're, okay, if we're talking and I'm trying to make you understand me versus wanting to be understood.

Keltie (24:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yes. Yeah, I think that's what I'm, that's kind of what I was saying too. So if you're putting on a persona to try to make somebody or like presenting yourself in a way to make the other person understand, you're actually getting further away from yourself. So even if they understand this persona thing, they're not going to understand you because you've, you've put something out that that isn't who you are. So

Amy Parrish (25:08)
Yeah, it's almost like you're taking the other person and putting it in front of you to give it to them so they can understand who you are instead of being understood, which is really vulnerable.

Keltie (25:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good, I think that's a good word for this conversation. And like, why do we do these things? Why do we put up this show of like, I think this is who you want me to be. Will you understand me if I use these words and speak in this type of language. ⁓ It's like less vulnerable to try to guess what would be easy for that person to understand than to just

like completely stay in who you are and understand yourself and stay in yourself and. ⁓

And yeah, and hope that people can find you there.

Amy Parrish (26:16)
Yeah. And if you're staying, if you're staying with yourself,

and you're trying, like you want to be understood. And so you're sharing that part of yourself. But then it, my brain went back to what you were saying before about when someone else says, yeah, me too. You feel less alone.

Keltie (26:43)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, when you've shared what's real.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, this is, if it's okay, this reminds me of actually like a pre-diagnosis story.

Amy Parrish (27:08)
yeah, please.

Keltie (27:09)
But just, yeah, before I was diagnosed with ADHD, I experienced burnout, like real burnout where, I mean, all burnout is real, but it wasn't just that I was burning out. It's like I couldn't go on. ⁓ And I had to take a leave from work and I didn't know anybody who'd ever had to do that before. ⁓

And I thought I was like, there's something uniquely broken about me. I didn't know why. I just was really ashamed. I still didn't have a diagnosis. I still didn't know about ADHD at all. I just like, but what I found through that experience, even just with burnout was like, once I, like, I really was just hiding from people for a little bit. I didn't want to tell even my family. ⁓ but one after the other,

I told people and either, you know, they totally understood. were like, oh my gosh, like, I'm surprised it's never happened to me. like, you know, all right, I never took a leave, but I felt so bad in my job. And then the more I talked to people, the more certain people that I never would have thought would have experienced that were like, oh yeah, me too. I took like, three months off of work. And these are people that I looked up to that I never would have thought would have experienced that. Um, and

I don't know, that was just such a healing moment, I think, for me and I hope for them as well because, yeah, because it's just, it's so human to get burned out at your job and... ⁓

There's somehow this prevailing story that if it happens to you, you shouldn't talk about it widely. And then everybody thinks they're alone when it happens to them. And I think to some extent, being neurodivergent, there's a parallel there, right? Like there's all these things that we struggle with that we think we shouldn't struggle with. And then we feel like we're the only person who struggles with it because you're not supposed to talk about what's difficult. ⁓

I don't know. How are you tracking me? With that, yeah.

Amy Parrish (29:22)
Yes. Yeah. Well,

it's interesting because I was thinking about when I was thinking about understanding and I was thinking about how understanding gets so moralistic.

Keltie (29:42)
Hmm.

Amy Parrish (29:43)
And we base our understanding on these things that are acceptable or not acceptable, which is exactly what you're talking about is like, ⁓ and the culture that we live in burnout is shameful. Being different is shameful. And so then you're misunderstood.

Keltie (29:58)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (30:15)
not based in a conversation or a connection, but based on this moralistic idea that, you know, productivity is good and difference is bad.

Keltie (30:31)
Right, yeah. ⁓ Yes, to everything you just said, that idea of acceptable, not acceptable. ⁓

It's kind of like, culturally, it's like, you can only be understood if your life falls fully into the acceptable category and everything that's not acceptable. Like the sad thing there for me is there are lots of people who are struggling things with things which are not acceptable, whether it's burnout, neurodivergence, know, depression, anxiety, whatever.

but because they're not acceptable, then no one feels safe to talk about it, so it feels even less acceptable.

Amy Parrish (31:17)
Exactly. Exactly.

Keltie (31:18)
So it's

like a cyclical, a vicious cycle, maybe I wanna say, that the things which culturally seem not acceptable become even less so and more isolating and more painful maybe than they really need to feel in and of themselves just because we're not talking about them because we decided they're not acceptable.

Amy Parrish (31:44)
Mm-hmm. It reminds me of being in school and you know, you give the wrong answer and then you get shamed.

Keltie (31:55)
Mm.

Amy Parrish (31:56)
And then you feel like, ⁓ I'm the only person. this feels terrible. And everybody's looking at you. And even though you know logically other people have been wrong, maybe even that day, you feel like you're the only one it affects in this way.

Keltie (32:03)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Even if half or more of the class didn't know the answer either, you would never get the chance to know that.

Amy Parrish (32:27)
⁓ And you would never get the chance to know that for most of the people in class, they feel this same suffocating shame feeling when they do get the wrong answer or they didn't, you know, it's like we have all of these really

Keltie (32:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Amy Parrish (32:53)
intense experiences that we hide.

Keltie (32:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (33:03)
And then we don't know, you know, after I got my diagnoses, I found community and found people who understood my experience. And I just could not believe that I got to 53 years old and

had just felt so misunderstood my whole life.

Keltie (33:32)
Yeah.

And I yeah I just I feel like I want to honor that like that's so I mean.

I mean, me too. I was 34, not 53, but still.

that pain of... ⁓

Yeah, being kept from that kind of understanding and thinking it was just and community, like you said, understanding within community and thinking it was just a me problem. everything was just a me problem. ⁓

Amy Parrish (34:21)
Mm-hmm.

Keltie (34:25)
And sometimes like, and also I think not knowing how to connect with other people because

even ⁓

Yeah, there were definitely people that I kept part of myself from, like parts of myself. Those parts that were quote unquote unacceptable, right? So even if I had, ⁓ and I did have, I mean, I do have some amazing friends that have been with me through all the shit and kind of know it, but. ⁓

Yeah, my first instinct with people is definitely like, kind of hard to connect because it's like, well, there's all these things about me and I don't know how you're going to take it. So I'm just going to filter and give you just acceptable. But that's not really who I am. That kind of way of being guarded. ⁓

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (35:38)
It cheats us out of so many experiences trying to be the right kind of person.

Keltie (35:44)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

Amy Parrish (35:55)
It's just like we base so many things on such a narrow understanding of what the human experience is actually like.

Keltie (36:08)
Yeah, I want to frame that, a narrow experience of what the, or a narrow understanding of what the human experience is like. ⁓ anything that falls outside that narrowness, like there's so much that exists that's true, that's outside of that narrowness, but like it stops us from finding each other.

Amy Parrish (36:32)
Yeah, like full body chill. Like, yes, yes, yes, 100%. We can't find each other.

Keltie (36:35)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (36:43)
because we don't even understand who we are.

Keltie (36:48)
I got the chill that time, yeah.

Amy Parrish (36:50)
You

Keltie (36:57)
Yeah.

It's making me feel frustrated, just that there's this narrative out there that I think you're totally right. I didn't get who I was for so long because I thought, you know, good people were supposed to be like this and I was trying and things were not always working so well. ⁓ But it really

Yeah, I think I think I was annoyed or like.

I felt like people, this sort of like narrative around what's acceptable and what's not, you know, might've held me back and like not let me fit in and not let me connect with others. But the level you just took it to is like, yeah, it didn't let me connect with myself either. And those things are all interrelated because once you can connect with yourself, you can find other people like you. But if you don't know who you are, how are you going to other people like you?

Amy Parrish (38:06)
especially if who you are is something that you're ashamed of.

Keltie (38:10)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (38:12)
especially if who you are is something that gets you in trouble or made fun of or bullied or pointed at or you know right no not like that like this no okay good people do it this way bad people do it that way

Keltie (38:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm hmm. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Corrected, yeah. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

This is, yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (38:41)
And I was just picturing you know, a kid again to go back to the classroom because I think that's where a lot of this happens.

that you have a kid who is struggling and who is obviously not in the same.

understanding of what's happening in the world and instead of being curious and trying trying to understand where that person is coming from because you're a child you're just dismissed or you're willful or you're precocious or you're being you know defiant

Keltie (39:21)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, curiosity.

⁓ it's something that I've come to just like respect so much and think is so powerful as an antidote to so many things. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (39:49)
Totally, But

like, or that a kid has that much manipulative ability that they would.

Keltie (40:00)
yeah, the intent

that we ascribe to kids, like it's wild.

Amy Parrish (40:07)
It's really bonkers, actually. Like, I'm in second grade and I'm so advanced that I know how to manipulate the adult in the front of the room to get angry and impatient because I'm just bad.

Keltie (40:09)
Mm-hmm

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. That's coming back to like what you were saying, like the moralistic layer to understanding where it's like acceptable, not acceptable. And it is wild to think of. ⁓

Yeah, I guess like, I don't know, do adults just forget what it's like to be a kid? Like, like to, cause it's a very like an adult intent. ⁓ and I don't know, the more kids I'm around, I'm like, every kid just wants to be good. I know I did. I just wanted to be good. And I was really confused why that was not happening. Every time I was in trouble, I was like, I don't know what I did to get here.

Amy Parrish (40:52)
Yeah.

Yeah,

wait, why is it bad that I'm like

Keltie (41:13)
I don't know how this

happened or like in retrospect I might have been like, okay, yeah, clearly I was not doing what I was supposed to be doing, but I don't know why I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. Help me understand. I didn't intend for this. Like, yeah.

Amy Parrish (41:29)
my God, yes, that's such a good point. I don't understand why. I don't understand, like why, why?

Keltie (41:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (41:40)
Help

me, help me understand. Tell me, can you please explain to me what I'm doing that isn't working instead of scolding me and acting like I'm doing it on purpose?

Keltie (41:42)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (42:02)
There's a

lot of assumption in there.

Keltie (42:08)
I think that might be how we start to not know who we are. Because ⁓ if people keep telling us like, you did this because you are careless or you did this because you don't respect the teacher or you don't respect your parents or you did this because you don't care about school. You did this because you're lazy.

or you did this because you're forgetful or like you didn't care about, you know, that like you're being told your motive and it's not the same as what you experience inside. And then you, and then you don't trust yourself. You don't trust your own.

Amy Parrish (42:56)
God, yes, that is like,

that is such a good point because inside of you, you know, or maybe even don't know. But it's, it's not, it doesn't match what you're being told about you. You're lazy. Like, wait, I am?

Keltie (43:10)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

That's right. Yes.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (43:21)
Why? I don't understand. Why am I lazy? I want to do the work. I just don't understand how. And I don't know how to ask for help. Or when I ask for help, I'm being a bother. I'm being annoying. Or don't be a nuisance. Or I already told you twice.

Keltie (43:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mmm, yeah.

Amy Parrish (43:42)
And so it's just like, ⁓ I'm missing something. It must be me. I'm the problem.

I'm wrong.

Keltie (43:52)
Yeah.

I'm wrong and I'm wrong about what I sense inside. My experience inside is like everyone around me says, I don't care about this. I feel like I care about it inside. So I can't even trust that. I can't even trust that sense inside that I care about something.

Amy Parrish (44:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so then you're misunderstood from the outside and the inside.

Keltie (44:27)
Ugh.

Amy Parrish (44:38)
And you're also a kid, so you don't know how to.

understand what's happening.

Keltie (44:51)
No, you can't stand up to, I mean, maybe not even stand up to, but you can't, you don't know how to question what adults are telling you. it's not, and for good reason, you're supposed to be able to trust adults and learn how to be a person.

from people with more experience, but instead you're learning just like.

Yeah, you're learning a version of you that's.

Not very positive and also not, not matching what you feel inside. You're learning that what you feel inside and your intentions.

yeah, like the number of times you hear kids say, I didn't mean to, and what if we believe them? Yeah.

Amy Parrish (45:50)
my god. Yeah,

I didn't mean to. That's not... No, that wasn't what I intended.

Keltie (45:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (46:08)
Yeah. Or also when you get hurt or something upsets you and come on, that didn't hurt. That's not hot. It doesn't taste bad.

Keltie (46:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, so many levels of being taught not to trust your experience.

Amy Parrish (46:32)
Yeah, and so you reach, you show, you have the vulnerability to show what the experience is like.

Keltie (46:43)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (46:44)
you have this deep understanding of your experience that's very vulnerable and honest and then because it's inconvenient in some way.

Keltie (46:58)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (46:59)
That didn't hurt, stop crying. That's not hot, just eat it.

And I wonder, okay, I wonder if it's because adults are so disconnected from their own understanding of themselves.

Keltie (47:20)
Yeah, because they had the same childhood, right, of adults being like, that wasn't hot. You did that on purpose. ⁓ You're being, you don't care. You're being lazy, you know.

Amy Parrish (47:23)
Yeah, yes.

Stop being dramatic, it's not that big of a deal.

Keltie (47:40)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (47:45)
And so then.

It takes like, it's slowly over time. You just stop trusting what that back to that essence, the essence that is in tune with everything that actually tells you what you feel, what you sense.

Keltie (48:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's like kind of helps you feel like you belong in this world, right? Like when your real self, it's like always feels like it belongs to this world, but you get separated from it by being told that all of its perceptions are mistaken.

Amy Parrish (48:35)
Yeah, yeah. And then you don't get believed.

Keltie (48:36)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (48:48)
And I wonder.

Like I think about how.

I feel more capable of sharing myself now than I ever have, mostly because I got an understanding of who I am and how I work.

Keltie (49:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Do you think that helped you trust? start trusting in what you feel and experience again? Because I think that's how it was for me. It's like, ⁓ this actually this thing that everyone says is really easy. Turns out it is really hard for me and that is what I felt this whole time. I just wasn't allowed to say it.

Amy Parrish (49:26)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I started believing myself.

Keltie (49:48)
Yeah, yes, exactly. ⁓

Amy Parrish (49:51)
I started believing myself when something really simple was hard.

Keltie (49:58)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (49:59)
I started believing that.

I didn't know what to do and I didn't understand how to do it and I needed some help.

Keltie (50:12)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (50:13)
And it's really interesting how.

when you're.

when things are supposed to be easy and you're just being defiant or lazy or not doing it because you're you're trying to cause trouble you're trying to get attention

Keltie (50:36)
Right.

Right.

Amy Parrish (50:41)
then you stop knowing that you could ask for help or you ask for help with something that supposedly is like really easy to understand.

Keltie (50:55)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (50:56)
And then you just stop asking for help.

and you get sort of resigned. ⁓ I don't know, I just don't understand.

Keltie (51:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, just like accepting that you're just never going to get it or

for some things, think just doing them.

Even though they're extremely hard and almost in my case anyway, like I can see myself holding that same criticism over my head as I'm moving through life where it's like, this shouldn't be so hard. Why is it so hard for you? you know, this should be easy. not giving, never giving myself extra time or extra support or even outside of external help, extra patients to do something because of

⁓ just internalizing that voice being like, this should be easy. You're an adult. Just get it done. What are you doing? Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (52:16)
Oh my God, yes, yeah, yeah. I

don't understand why this is so hard for you. What is wrong with you? Why can't you do this?

Keltie (52:24)
Yeah, yeah.

That's how my inner critic spoke to me for a long time. Yeah, yeah.

Amy Parrish (52:29)
for so long.

Okay, that's interesting. So do you think that that that part of you that inner critic part

also doesn't understand you.

Keltie (52:50)
I have maybe an interesting answer to this because I've been thinking about and talking about my inner critic lately. And I do, I just finished a coach training on like IFS parts. So I'm thinking of the critic as like part that lives inside of me and in IFS work, no parts are bad. So I'm like, okay, critics not bad.

Amy Parrish (52:54)
Mm-hmm.

Keltie (53:18)
But what I came to realize is the critic, like in a kind of burdened role where it's overdoing its job is just gonna berate me. It's just gonna be like, this should be easy. what's wrong with you? Get it together. You know, all these like, these just criticisms are taking me down. But if it can be in an unburdened role, then what it can do is kind of be almost like an ambassador to the outside world, which is like,

Keltie, these are the norms that are in the atmosphere. Like people expect that tasks such as keeping your house tidy are very easy for someone at 38. I'm just letting you know. I'm letting you know that that's what's in the culture, not like weaponizing it against me. So it's like, it's very attuned and aware with all the stuff that the cult, like what you said, like the acceptable, not acceptable.

it's super sensitive and it's like delivering me reports on this is what people outside your head are gonna think about this. Just for your advisement. Just so you know. Yeah, this is what people think sometimes. ⁓ So I'll leave it to you to do what you want with that information instead of being like, you must do it the way that.

Amy Parrish (54:25)
Yes.

Right, just so you know.

Keltie (54:42)
like culture's been telling you to do it. So that's sort of where I'm at with the critic right now.

Amy Parrish (54:47)
Yeah.

I wonder if because like in parts work, all parts are good. And so that inner critic that's like, why are you doing it this way? Did it? Like it's, it to me is almost like a personification of the adults that would ask those same questions. And so.

Keltie (54:57)
huh.

Right.

Amy Parrish (55:19)
then for me, think it's like, that part is helping me, it's protecting me by motivating me in that way, even though it wasn't motivating then and it's not motivating now.

Keltie (55:27)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I think the protecting part for sure, like, it's trying to keep you like in the acceptable lane and out of the not acceptable lane. Like that's it's I think that's really its role. So that's why I'm like, now I'm like, maybe you can just be an advisor that says like,

By the way, this is what our collective consciousness says, is acceptable and not acceptable. This is what other people in the culture will say. You don't have to act on any of that, but I'm just letting you know how you might be interpreted by other people just for your information.

Amy Parrish (56:17)
It's almost like

growing it up.

Keltie (56:21)
That's right. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (56:24)
It goes from that scolding, very, you know, get in line, do the right thing kind of voice. It's almost like you've matured it so it can see a bigger picture and be able to say, I mean, this is something that's true. And also this is something that's true. And I trust you.

Keltie (56:32)
Mm-hmm.

That's right, yeah.

Amy Parrish (56:53)
because you helped me grow that ⁓ I trust you to make the decision how you're gonna handle it.

Keltie (56:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, the trust.

all about that trust, right? ⁓ yeah, so maybe I think your first question was do you think the critic understands me? And so I think if it's in that role of like, advisor, then yeah, it's understanding me. But when it was in that role of just like, what's wrong with you? then it's not seeing me, it's not getting me. ⁓

Amy Parrish (57:35)
Yeah, when it's trying to get you to walk the straight and narrow, the narrow path that doesn't allow for the complexity of the human experience, it's just in that very...

Keltie (57:39)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (57:48)
berating kind of no nonsense. don't, I brook no excuses. Just do it.

Keltie (57:52)
Yeah.

Yeah,

that's right. Yeah, just parroting like every criticism I've ever received. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (58:02)
Yeah, that didn't actually

come from you.

Keltie (58:06)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Amy Parrish (58:08)
And so by making it more of an advisor, you've actually

showed that part of you that you understand where it's coming from and what it's trying to do. And then that creates that trust.

Keltie (58:30)
Yeah, yeah, you're right in both directions. I was thinking that, or what you said before, that like the critic is trusting me so it doesn't need to just like yell. It can just talk in its normal voice and know that I'll listen. And then like the other way too, just my understanding that I'm like, this isn't an evil like broken part of myself. It's just like, it's kind of armed with the reality that yeah, like we are in a culture where

Amy Parrish (58:33)
huh.

Keltie (58:59)
Some of the stuff that I want to do to like, just live my best neurodiverse life is gonna rub some people the wrong way. Like, it's just, that's real. And I don't want to deny its reality. But I don't need it to be like shrieking at me. Like, that's not helpful. I just need it to tell me like, you know, this person might find this a little weird. Do with it what you will, but this person might find this a little...

Amy Parrish (59:23)
Yeah, because...

Keltie (59:29)
you

Amy Parrish (59:29)
Yeah,

because when that part of you is yelling, it's trying to make you understand instead of being understood.

Keltie (59:35)
Mm-hmm.

yeah. ⁓ great callback. Yeah.

Yes, yes, that's right. Yeah, it's like my way, like you need to see things my way. I'm gonna keep yelling until you do, exactly. Yeah. ⁓

Amy Parrish (59:54)
There's no room for you.

Yes. Yeah.

Keltie (1:00:01)
Hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:00:03)
And then.

whichever one of you. ⁓

goes from making one understand to I'm trying to be understood. That's where that evolution occurs.

Keltie (1:00:30)
Yeah, or like the growing up, as you said.

Amy Parrish (1:00:34)
We talked about this, there's someone has to sort of surrender.

Keltie (1:00:47)
Yeah, yeah, in order for real understanding to happen, someone has to surrender their agenda, right? Like that's what that that critic part was doing. It's like, I have an agenda. Like, not only do I have information, but I know exactly what you're supposed to do with this information. And I won't rest until you do it versus like, I have information. But I don't have an agenda. And what do want to do with it?

Amy Parrish (1:00:52)
Mm-hmm.

Back to the curiosity.

Keltie (1:01:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:01:19)
When

no one's trying to be right, there's so much more because the rightness is actually how we, like the moralization of behavior, people, humanity, all the things. And so when you take that and throw it out the window and you're just curious about what's here,

Keltie (1:01:24)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Totally. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:01:48)
then that's like, it's like fertile ground for understanding to be had, offered, built.

Keltie (1:01:58)
That's right. yeah, the curiosity is like the ground, the ground for understanding.

Amy Parrish (1:02:09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Keltie (1:02:10)
That kind of open

and surrender maybe is in the ground of understanding as well.

Amy Parrish (1:02:16)
vulnerability.

Keltie (1:02:18)
vulnerability. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:02:21)
Yeah.

Because when you're on that ground, you can actually show up as yourself.

Keltie (1:02:34)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:02:35)
which then to circle back to like, and ourselves know each other because they are all from the same place.

Keltie (1:02:47)
That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:02:50)
It's

like the ocean is a drop and it's also the ocean. Like the drop is not separate from the ocean. It is the ocean.

Keltie (1:03:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's itself and the ocean at the same time.

Amy Parrish (1:03:10)
And then when we're not othering each other, we are the drop and the ocean together.

Keltie (1:03:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's right. Yeah. Me drops those agendas about what's acceptable and not acceptable.

Amy Parrish (1:03:28)
And then that advisor that you found who's like, hey, I'm just offering these couple things. which one do you like? None of them are right.

Keltie (1:03:38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:03:46)
It doesn't matter if we are the same.

in that way because we're the same.

Keltie (1:04:04)
Yeah, it doesn't. So then it doesn't matter what you pick, right? that becomes less and less important. That idea, yeah, it comes back to.

not being right, just being there for real. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:04:20)
Yeah, because you don't lose your

belonging if you choose something different.

Keltie (1:04:25)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:04:26)
because we're the same, so we don't have to be the same, if that makes sense.

Keltie (1:04:33)
Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, we don't have to like the exact same thing, see things the exact same way or whatever the case is, we're the same.

Amy Parrish (1:04:46)
we belong anyway.

Keltie (1:04:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:04:50)
It's not actually a performance. It already exists.

Keltie (1:04:54)
No,

that's right. and the performance takes us away.

from that belonging that already exists.

Amy Parrish (1:05:04)
Which is then the performance is like making someone understand you.

Keltie (1:05:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:05:14)
and then

the sameness is knowing that you are understood.

Keltie (1:05:25)
Love that. That was a great summary. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:05:26)
Yeah, yeah.

Thank you so much.

this feels like we got to a good ⁓ spot. I'm not sure what all we talked about, but I'll figure it out when I edit it. But I just love all of the, there were so many moments for me in this conversation of just

Almost a relief.

Keltie (1:05:54)
Yeah, me too. The truth, ⁓ I heard somewhere the truth always feels like a relief. Even if it's not what you want to hear and not what you wanted for when it's true, it's just like, And likewise, I definitely got, ⁓ like one of my teachers says like truth bumps from a few of the things you said. And I just, I really appreciate the way that you hold space for conversation.

Amy Parrish (1:06:00)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Keltie (1:06:23)
Because I don't think any of this would have emerged in the conversation with anyone else. And what we were just talking about, curiosity, surrender, vulnerability, like you're already just bringing that in spades. And it's it's so interesting. ⁓ Like what's even coming out of my own mind is interesting to me because I, it hasn't come out that way before, but it has in the grounds of this conversation that you.

create. So I really appreciate that.

Amy Parrish (1:06:56)
Yeah, me too. And I appreciate you saying it. And I appreciate that you'll go there. Like, it just feels like there's a recognition of willingness to go there. And that's what makes it possible because I don't need to make you understand where I'm coming from because you want to understand.

Keltie (1:07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:07:27)
and then you want to understand what that says for you about you.

Keltie (1:07:34)
Yeah, yeah, a whole lot of curiosity maybe on both sides. ⁓

Amy Parrish (1:07:38)
Yeah, yeah.

And I just love that you'll go there and that you'll just trust the conversation enough to be willing to follow it because there's not a right place for it to go.

Keltie (1:07:55)
Yeah, it feels like something that's very live and alive.

that ⁓

It's a really, it's pretty comfortable as well because I think

you know, based on our previous conversations, I didn't prepare too much today. I just thought, you know, our last conversation and my life is enough preparation. And that's really, I really like that. it's almost like, it almost feels like an art, we're doing like making like some performance art or something together. I don't know if that's really the right analogy that I want to use because it's not a performance.

Amy Parrish (1:08:28)
You

Keltie (1:08:48)
But it's like, it's something created in the moment ⁓ rather than like a sharing of facts. That's how I feel about it anyway.

Amy Parrish (1:08:58)
Yes.

It's exactly how I want all of like this whole podcast to feel is not like anybody's delivering information, but more like you get a sense of who we are in this moment on, you know, Friday, October 24th at, you know, 412 PM Mountain Time.

Keltie (1:09:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:09:27)
Right? Like this is, this

Keltie (1:09:28)
Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:09:28)
is who we are in this moment. And that may change and evolve and grow, which is why I just like to try to have the conversation that we have today and not.

Keltie (1:09:36)
Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:09:48)
prepare a lot of things or say something even in particular, but just kind of have a thread and drop it in the conversation and then follow it.

Keltie (1:10:02)
Yeah, I, I so appreciate that. And I appreciate the way that you bring back the other threads that start to emerge. And I'm thinking too, in stuff that I create, I want to, ⁓ I want to create, you know, through my newsletter or whatever things that, ⁓ help neurodivergent people understand themselves better. But.

Like, what could be better than speaking of understanding than this conversation that's just the two of us in this moment, talking about our experiences, talking about what we've learned along the way and just being, yeah, like real people that hopefully some of your listeners can relate to and hopefully we were enough in our like selves that

that the selves in your listeners will connect to some of what we're saying too.

Amy Parrish (1:11:06)
Yeah, yes, yeah, like 100%. And then it's the lived experience of being understood.

Keltie (1:11:09)
Hehehehe

There it is. Yeah. And yeah, I I just want to say again, like you do hold this space so beautifully. So I'm sure that all your podcast episodes will have that intent that you described because yeah, you just have a way of being able to, to create that. It's really, it's really lovely. It's unlike, I mean, not like I've done a ton of interviews, but

Amy Parrish (1:11:21)
Yeah, yeah.

Keltie (1:11:45)
I mean, I don't even know if it's right to call it an interview. I just feel like, yeah, like a co-creation of something.

Amy Parrish (1:11:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, like just us having a conversation that we're willing to share with other people and hopefully they get something from it too. As much as I did, I always get so much from when we talk and I really look forward to a lot more conversations with you because the way that you're able to pick up what I'm thinking about and dig into it further is really something that I enjoy a lot.

And so I'm sure the people that get to work with you too also enjoy that you can like find the thing and then pull it open and pull it apart.

Keltie (1:12:25)
Yeah.

Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. And yeah, I think you're the people that work with you are lucky as well. You're just you're so open. And I appreciate I appreciate this space so much. It's just I'm thinking about this like performance art thing. And it's just like, it's like

this conversation, other interviews, like I would prepare first, so kind of create what I'm going to say ahead of time and the other person would create their questions ahead of time. I think what happened here is like, we just like whatever we created together, like the whole, it's like, like a, like a live creation. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:13:17)
Yes, it's alive, it's alive. It's like,

it's like we came as ourselves without...

Keltie (1:13:23)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Parrish (1:13:27)
It's almost like we came as ourselves with the willingness to be understood. That we didn't have to make ourselves be understood in this conversation because we're willing to be understood through the aliveness of the conversation. That risk.

Keltie (1:13:38)
Yeah.

Yeah, yes. Yeah, and it like in some ways too, like I'm just reflecting that's like a working session, ⁓

in that I think something really useful came out of it. And we went to some places with both of our experiences as neurodivergents and coaches. And people have thought about this a lot that we created a really like just maybe the part of my brain that's always like achievement focused. I feel like we did really create something in a way that just, yeah, like that felt so like, I think what we created has a lot of value, I think is what I'm trying to say. like,

It didn't have to feel tense or like a performance or like a carefully constructed thing in order to communicate something really valuable.

Amy Parrish (1:14:50)
my God, yes, yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to be all dressed up and like fixed up and ⁓ right for consumption. It just has to be whatever arrives in the time that we're together. And that's what makes it what it is.

Keltie (1:14:51)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Totally. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:15:11)
Yeah,

more stuff like that. I just love, love just being able to not have to be so prescriptive and worry about am I going to say the right thing? But just be.

Keltie (1:15:24)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Same.

⁓ man. Yeah.

Amy Parrish (1:15:33)
Just being willing to be in the conversation and hold the tension of where are we going? What are we talking about? I don't know. Let's see. Let's just see. And we saw some cool stuff. Yeah. All right. I'm going to stop the recording.

Keltie (1:15:42)
Mm-hmm.

That's right. Yeah. Okay.

Amy Parrish (1:16:00)
Many thanks to Keltie McLaren for this free form and very curious conversation. Keltie works with values-driven independent creatives who want to stop fighting their brains and instead find ways to work with them. And her warm and grounded style is a great fit for anyone looking for support. Check out her newsletter, ADHD Embraced, on Substack and find her on her website with the same name, ADHD Embraced.

Y'all, understanding is not an arrival, but an ongoing, curious conversation with ourselves, with others, and with difference. Understanding doesn't promise peace or sameness, but it does deepen connection, attunement, and nuance. To truly be understood, sometimes you have to stop trying to make others understand you.

and instead try to be understood. Thank you as always for listening and I'll see you in a couple weeks with a new episode. You can find me on my website, rebelling.me and I look forward to talking to you soon. Bye.