Questioning How Work Works

In this episode, I sit down for another conversation with Dana Calder, a queer, neurodivergent SVP in the fintech world and owner of EmberMind Consulting. Dana and I start with sourdough starter and baking, which turns out to be a surprisingly good entry point into our conversation about how work works. We talk about hierarchy, trust, AI, workplaces, and what happens when we try to use industrialized systems to do relational work, and relational systems to do industrialized work.  

We both come at this through a neurodivergent lens, and what we’re trying to make sense of is that feeling of something not making sense, and what happens when you try to adjust yourself to make it work without looking at what the systems are actually trying to do. These are the two types of systems we're taking about today:

Relational:  systems that pay attention to connection, context, and the fact that people are always affecting each other. It’s not about being nice or performative, it’s about actually treating relationship as part of the work itself. 

Industrialized: systems built around efficiency, predictability, and standardization, systems that tend to assume people should be consistent, measurable, and somewhat interchangeable.

We talk about the confusion that shows up over and over at work when we use the wrong system for the wrong thing. We try to standardize human experience, things like communication, trust, conflict, leadership, and then wonder why it feels flat or performative. And at the same time, we take decisions that actually need clarity and closure and turn them into ongoing relational processes, so nothing fully resolves, but everyone stays emotionally responsible for it.

The tension underneath it all is what it feels like to be a person trying to make sense of systems that are built for predictability doing work full of ambiguity, while also carrying emotional and relational weight for things that actually just need to be decided. This conversation is about noticing that pattern as it shows up in work, leadership, and systems, and what might shift when we start to name it. 

Dana Calder

Embermind Consulting

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Transcript

Amy Knott Parrish (00:02)
Welcome to Rebelling, a podcast for people tired of wondering why the world doesn't make sense and want to try something different.

On this podcast, we'll take it down to the foundations. We'll explore the systems and norms that shape our day-to-day lives, question what we've been taught to expect and accept, and name the bullshit. I'm your host, Amy Knott Parrish. Let's stop playing it cool. It's time to start rebelling.

Amy Knott Parrish (00:44)
Hey, y'all. Welcome back. Today, I'm joined again by Dana Calder, a queer neurodivergent SVP in the fintech world. We start the episode talking about sourdough starter and baking, which turned out to be a perfect entry point into our conversation about industrialized and relational systems. From there, we move through hierarchy, trust, AI, workplaces, and what happens when we try to use the wrong systems for the wrong things.

In the podcast, when we say relational, we're talking about work that pays attention to connection, context, and the fact that people are always affecting each other. It's not about being nice or performative. It's about actually treating relationships as part of the work. And when we say industrialized, we're talking about systems built around efficiency, predictability, and standardization. Systems that assume people should be consistent,

measurable and somehow interchangeable. And what we keep coming back to is what happens when those logics get mixed in ways that don't really fit. A lot of organizational pain comes from a kind of category confusion. to standardize human experience like communication, trust, conflict, leadership, and then wonder.

why it starts to feel flat or performative. And at the same time, we take decisions that actually need clarity and closure and turn them into ongoing relational processes. So nothing fully resolves, but everyone stays emotionally responsible for it. People end up doing this really exhausting work of trying to be human inside systems that expect predictability, while also trying to emotionally process things that actually just need to be decided.

This conversation is really about that tension and what it looks like when you start to notice it. Here's my conversation with Dana.

Amy Knott Parrish (02:52)
So Dana is ⁓ a baker extraordinaire and ⁓ I've already seen her today and she brought me ⁓ a loaf of sourdough from a new starter. ⁓ Holy shit. Like.

Dana Calder (03:07)
telling

you it's like the Cadillac of Cadillac starters.

Amy Knott Parrish (03:13)
I

Because you're the same baker with a different starter, it's so fascinating. I mean, this kind of goes with what we're talking about, like in the right, with the right tools in the right environment. I mean, that bread is amazing. The crust is crackly. It's light. It's substantial at the same.

Dana Calder (03:34)
Thank you. Thank you. I.

Yeah, I am super excited to bake with a starter. It's like.

Amy Knott Parrish (03:47)
I just like.

Dana Calder (03:51)
Interesting for me as a baker to think of like, I put a lot of work into starting my own starter and felt very connected with it. I was like, I can't use another starter. This is my starter. can't, I can't, I can't switch now. And then to be gifted at and just to see the starter just sitting first, just in my work office, just bubbling, like just actively. I was like, what, what is, I've never seen this. Like it's just bubbling, taking it home, feeding it.

and used to like it being in a certain temperature zone thinking, OK, it's got to be seventy five to seventy eight for it to like double, triple. This one, it's like 68 degrees in my little starter fridge for it. And it's just like doubling. It's just like a strong it's versatile. It's like interesting. To have the change and then to try something else like I just came home from seeing you and.

We made cinnamon rolls. We've made cinnamon rolls before with my starter. And I took a bite and I was like, ⁓ what? What?

Amy Knott Parrish (05:03)
other bread that you were making was delicious but it was heavy and

Dana Calder (05:05)
Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (05:15)
This was just, it's just fascinating to me because with the right, it doesn't mean that the other starter was bad. It doesn't mean that it didn't give you practice and help you like learn more baking skill, but having this other starter that is vigorous and bubbly, my God, and alive. And it just, how it feel like.

Dana Calder (05:26)
Yes.

Amy Knott Parrish (05:44)
the bread, you can feel the life force of the starter in the bread.

Dana Calder (05:50)
Yeah, it's like amazing of, like it just has a maturity has been around, it's more established. And I was hesitant because I felt like, I don't know, like an outside label, I've got to prove myself as a sourdough baker. Like it's a cop out or you're giving up if you don't use your own starter that you created type thing.

And it came from another baker who I've seen her end products and it's just amazing. And I don't think about the starter she's using. I just think about her.

end product and what she's been able to do and she's used different starters. She's bounced around. I was just kind of like, that's so interesting. So interesting to be willing to be adaptable and try. I was like, okay. And it wasn't until, I mean, she literally just placed in my office, like I brought you some starter because I kept saying, no, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But she literally just gave it to me and I was like, well.

Now I'm going and I took it home and I looked at it and I thought maybe I'll dehydrate my starter, you know, to be nice and everything like that. And it was like this moment for me of it's OK to turn the page with something new. That starter let me practice and try techniques and I threw it out and I was just like, it's a new chapter. It's OK.

Amy Knott Parrish (07:07)
It's really funny because none of this is on purpose, but it actually lines up perfectly with what we're talking about, which is industrialized and relational systems and how you get used to one thing and it feels like, well, this is the way we've always done it. We can't abandon this thing because that's not fair to the old ways and the old system.

But also like inviting in something new and seeing how you're still in your part of the system, right? And so seeing how they go together in a different way, it's just, just to me, like that connection is just sort of like, my mind is like, that's so cool that this happened.

Dana Calder (07:58)
Yeah, it is. It's such an interesting parallel too, because I had slowed down on baking because I was just like, something feels off. I don't know what feels off. I don't know. It just isn't coming together. And I was just like, whatever. And then with this, I got excited again. I've made now like, like six loaves in the span of like,

Thursday, because it's just efficient, can do more. I'm creating, I'm trying blends, not just bread flour. I'm like, okay, let me try an ancient grain. let me pick up whole wheat. Like I'm excited to experiment again. So it's really interesting when I think about systems, like you unlock one change, you make one different, and you feel a connection, excitement, passion again to do something. And I always think like,

That must be the energy people feel when they feel that they've been in a specific system for a period of time and they can't figure out how to change it. So they change one thing, it might be like, I'm just gonna be in a new job or something like that. And it could be they're doing the same work, but the energy and connection looks different, because something changed for that person.

Amy Knott Parrish (09:10)
Yeah, it seems like the ingredient that we try to change is ourselves instead of looking not only at ourselves as part of the system, but ⁓ at the system as a system and all of our relationships and connections in that system that we are in, not outside of.

It's wild. And so you change your job. You look for something else. You like, what do I need to do to fix this instead of, ⁓ what's happening right now? What's not working? And then where am I being that human buffer to make the system work when actually I'm just

It's like having a flat tire and then you just keep changing one that's still inflated.

Dana Calder (10:14)
Yes.

Amy Knott Parrish (10:17)
Like, no, no, Look at the whole car.

Dana Calder (10:24)
So true.

Amy Knott Parrish (10:25)
Yeah, what do you think? I'm just curious about what you're smiling. I'm curious about what you're thinking about over there.

Dana Calder (10:29)
Yeah, I was thinking how

it's so interesting that sometimes the answer is right in front of us, but it takes someone else pointing it out who maybe we give them the expert hat or whatever. Like we should be able to maybe see that that tire looks a little wonky or off, but we don't trust our own instinct. So we take it to a shop or someone else who wears that expert hat and goes, yep, you're right. Let's change that tire.

Amy Knott Parrish (10:57)
It also makes me think too, Dana, that like, maybe that flat tire is new. And so you go and you say, hey, I think something's wrong with the car. It's not driving right. I think, I think it's that right tire. And the person says, ⁓ no, no, no, that's a new tire. That's not, it's not, that's just not possible. We just bought that tire. You're like, okay, well, I mean, it doesn't seem like it's working, but.

Alright, you know, like you're the expert. You know more about tires than I do, so I guess...

guess you're right, I'm not gonna argue with you because that would be disrespectful. And then we'll just keep limping along on this flat tire.

Dana Calder (11:44)
Yeah, I think that's really going to be turned on its head a little bit too with that expert and just having that level of authoritativeness. We're in the age of AI where you can ask it questions and you come even more informed of this is what I think I understand. This is the research I've done blah, blah, blah, blah. And now the expert has to take a step back of like

I kind of have to share and not just operate in the way that I've operated. So there's this level of disruption. I even see it with baking, someone going, oh, well, did you show a picture to AI to like figure out what's going on, things like that. And even with that, like I started out doing that for baking. And then I started to trust what I was seeing of like

but I can feel the dough. I can see the signals related to if it's ready to move to the next step. I need to just trust what I see more rather than needing all of this external validation to feel comfortable to move forward. So it's interesting, it can be a crutch for period time. So I think, you know.

to the tire thing, you'd be a crutch of like, think, da, da, da, like you've experienced it you're like, oh, I've had that experience of a new tire just busting and this is what that looks like. And so, no, I'm gonna speak with more confidence now. Like, I want you to check because I've had that experience before. And so I think it's like, if you haven't had an experience or you don't have something in your toolbox to make you feel a little bit more comfortable,

with that environment, you fall into the trap of thinking whatever that person's saying or the other, it's, I should just accept it. I don't know better.

Amy Knott Parrish (13:44)
Yeah.

It's interesting that you brought in AI too, and I'm gonna tie that into what I'm thinking about with, because the industrialized system is sort of like, this is the way it is, there is a hierarchy, and you follow the hierarchy. And then you now have AI,

Dana Calder (13:54)
Yeah.

Amy Knott Parrish (14:14)
And at the same time, we also need the relational quality of experience and of each other.

And it's like we do all this work to...

to like emotionally decide things that are the decisions that just need to be made.

And then the things that actually need the connection and the relationality, we try to standardize and put into like strict boxes.

I'm curious, this is like kind of a side quest, but where do you think, where do you see AI fitting into all that?

Dana Calder (15:02)
Yeah, I think where I see it showing up is if it's not your area of expertise or you just want to understand something, get your arms around it, or you have a difficult topic or conversation, it almost feels more comfortable to give all of those data components to artificial intelligence to have it form a starting point.

Amy Knott Parrish (15:05)
you

Dana Calder (15:32)
so that you can come into the conversation of I had a way to quickly research, I can validate whatever, but it kind of gave me an informed decision or thought. And now I can put it on.

that AI instead of a human. Maybe I wasn't comfortable going to that expert and asking them these questions because either they're intimidating or they have their own frame of mind or thought or they seem obstinate. But now I feel like I can approach them in a situation a little easier because I'm armed with some starting point knowledge. That's what I'm seeing in terms of how AI is playing a part in systems and workplaces.

But what I think is interesting is...

the connection, the human and that knowledge can be even more powerful. So my coworker is an avid baker. She showed me tons of pictures of all the things that she's baked. So I trust her more than AI telling me, this is what you should do with your sourdough, your starter. Like I see the proof of her experience. And when you're literally handing me starter that you're like, this is what I use.

and I've been able to produce this and you're giving me tips at the same time like this is what I do to my water in terms of the temperature like very precise temperature and this is what you're going to notice and so instead of

and I was awkward, I didn't know anyone else who like in my realm was a sourdough baker that I could ask these questions. And I go and I apply these tips that she shared and I see the results and I was just like, and exactly what she told me would happened, happened with the dough. And so that makes it more connected, relational. That thing we used to have back where we had mentorship.

where you had someone who had the experience and was open and knowledgeable and go, this is what you can anticipate happening, because this is how it happened for me and it might happen this way for you. And as a human, you're like, thank you so much, because someone's been there, the door's open and they're sharing with me what I can encounter or expect. And in the age of AI, somehow we've moved away from that or...

Either something with the human connection doesn't feel as comfortable or comforting. And so we found something else that feels less emotional, less friction, easier to access.

Amy Knott Parrish (18:12)
It's like I wrote down, it depersonalizes the information, which actually feels like.

Dana Calder (18:18)
Yes.

Amy Knott Parrish (18:25)
There's the cat. It feels like when we're trying to be in a relational, connective way, but then everybody is sort of guarding their.

Dana Calder (18:26)
I love it.

Amy Knott Parrish (18:41)
the way that they think because we look at it not as just sharing information, but like, if I'm wrong, I'm a bad person or I'm bad at my job or I don't know what I'm doing. And it seems almost like AI is the relief. I know for me, it's been the relief of like, I can ask as many questions as I need to. And it doesn't get impatient. It doesn't cut me off.

doesn't try to convince me to be another way.

It feels like what we're saying that's important is like each thing has a place.

and that when you can, I don't know, it's almost like if you can have sort of a full circle of understanding from.

all the parts of the system, you can put it together and then...

build work that is adaptable, that isn't afraid of making mistakes, that isn't afraid of being wrong. Because it's not about you as a person, it's about the system that you're working in and what you're trying to do.

Dana Calder (20:04)
Yes. And I think fear plays a gate here of, am I being replaced if someone's using AI rather than, this is so interesting that's your starting point. Let's go further together. Like, let's look at all this that you've

Amy Knott Parrish (20:23)
Yeah, why are we so

freaking helpless?

Dana Calder (20:26)
We're like, how dare you? How dare you jump into my zone and you're using AI rather than talking to me? Ego comes up for humans. Ego just takes the wheel of like, ⁓ I am still very relevant. No one's saying you're not relevant. You still have that knowledge. You still have that perspective of whatever that domain of expertise you have.

and you can inform AI in a way. It doesn't take away from the person who's trying to understand your area and only tiptoes into it every now and then. And it's just trying to find language. The thing we could do is actually get on a video call or schedule a meeting and talk and say, hey, I saw you were trying to find some shared language for this thing.

Let's talk it through. What questions do you have? saw that you put this together rather than being like, ⁓ you threw this AI note at me. I'm going to throw my own AI note back rather than let's just talk. Let's figure out the mutual ground we could have here.

Amy Knott Parrish (21:31)
because it seemed that-

We feel like if something, hold on, let me get my brain together.

Dana Calder (21:40)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (21:43)
In the industrialized system, humans made into machine. Like I'm a machine, I can do things the same every day all the time, just like a machine. Then, you know, this relationality has been here this whole time, but it's just like in the background. Then AI comes in and it's like, ⁓ also humans not important in here. And then as humans, we just don't

push our way to be a major part of the system, just like you're talking about. Like, okay, yeah, I see you got some information and now we can talk about that. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. It can be a both and.

Dana Calder (22:36)
Yes. But historically we've seen change or some kind of system change, especially with technology, and we meet it with fear first of like, what is that going to do? Is it going to replace us? And I understand to some extent, we have evolved and created efficiency and it has impacted work to individuals. ⁓ But it's always a point in time.

and then it opens the gate to different specialized work. But we're in that point again where we're worried and we are seeing some negative outputs for businesses related to either the economy or disruption.

And there is some specific change that happens. ⁓ I get it. I used to sell textbooks and educational technology. And I was like, well, books are going to be around forever. Everyone's going to want a physical book. I'll always have a job. ⁓ Then Amazon was coming in. And I was like, it's over here. Still not going to impact. The wave came.

Now, publishing just had to change as an industry. There are still physical books, but they had to innovate of how do we do digital now? How do we change our pricing models? Because it can't be what it was before. The market is telling us we're not going to pay that. We have other ways to do things and it has had to evolve and adapt. And I think a lot of industries are going to face that where you're at adaptation point.

where things cannot stay the same, it is changing. And I was with thousands of people who got laid off by that. And I felt frustrated and like, okay, see, see, technology did that. But I found other ways into technology. ⁓ And so I understand it, but it means that we have to figure out.

different pathways to do things and it forces innovation.

Amy Knott Parrish (24:53)
It almost feels like we are we're going too fast to understand what we're actually trying to do, but because.

business is a race.

because of capitalism, that you can't actually take the time to say, here's this amazing thing. It could be really useful. How do we want to integrate this? What do we want to do with it? But because we're so busy trying to beat each other at innovation,

it takes away the relationality goes into the things that it shouldn't be in.

Like we're trying to standardize the relationality.

And then industrialize the creativity. And it's just, it doesn't, it's not working. I mean, and for you, like, I'm, I'm, my guess is, you know, like, here's a bunch of meetings about the same thing. Here's a bunch of like, work we're doing that somebody the other day called it vapor work.

instead of paperwork, like vapor work. Like it's just vapor work. It's just, it doesn't really matter, but it feels important, but it's really not. And we all know it, but we just keep doing it.

What do you think the pace has to do with it or what were you going to say?

Dana Calder (26:46)
Yeah, I think it's at least in technology, it is the race to be out in market to see what it is like to capture as much of the total addressable market of customers. Like you want to get as many customers as possible, but what you end up finding out, like you don't always have to be first because yes, you can be first, but you have to balance like having a competitor.

helps ⁓ validate your product. you kind of you need both but then now you have a competitor you have to compete against. So it's a balance. ⁓

I think we've gotten to a point where we're doing trade-offs of, well, this is more important than this, rather than it is just as important. The relationship and the work and being able to lean on that team member and have this level of trust to work towards a speed together is important. Because if you don't have that trust and relationship, then you're always in this threat mode.

of like, I just have to be very reactive, reactive, reactive. I can't take any time to plan because we just have to move fast. I think the organizations that stand out to me that do it better are the ones that understand we need some modicum of relationship because we have to work together, we're spending a ton of time together and we have to be able to move through difficult conversations.

And we have to sometimes disagree and have iterative process of disagreeing to get to whatever the product needs to look like, or the teams need to look like. And you can't do that.

Amy Knott Parrish (28:36)
Yeah, what do you see?

What do you see? I'm going to stop you. What do you see as like what's tension or conflict like?

Dana Calder (28:39)
Yeah, go ahead.

Hmm, yeah, I think... Tension?

when someone knows the right move or step the organization needs to make to unlock success and you have someone that is on the fence with the direction. I say on the fence because the conflict would be they're completely staunch and think that they're correct and they don't even want to hear the direction but they're on the fence and you can tell

you could potentially sway them and have them come over to where you are in terms of where we need to go. But the tension is getting them to move in that direction.

You're gonna get them there potentially, but it's going to take time and they have to process on their end to move in that way. I think oftentimes with that tension, you're thinking through the level of confidence and the relationship that you have with that person to be direct and honest. And if you don't have that relationship built up, you can't do it. And then really it is conflict.

Amy Knott Parrish (30:11)
And that goes back to the survival part. Because then maybe you don't even bring it up because you don't want the tension because the tension could bloom into conflict and then you might be in danger.

Dana Calder (30:24)
Correct. And then if you think about organizations where if you ask the employees, like, yeah, I know exactly what we need to do to be better. They're like, why don't you, they don't want to hear me. They don't, they're not going to listen to me.

And so that's where you're going the wrong way because all the answers are within the institution, but you refuse to take action. You're certain you need external validation. Could be through a consultant or another group.

Like you want that validation, like, oh, you've been here, here, here, and you've talked to these organizations, so come and tell our organization. And then that consultant probably comes in, talks to a few people, and they're like, oh, yeah, I will elevate it to your leaders.

the consultant could probably be saying the same thing that people within your organization are saying. You just paid someone to come in because you appreciate and love their credentials to tell you exactly what people within your organization have been trying to tell you.

Amy Knott Parrish (31:37)
Is that it?

I see this all the time. I talk to people about this all the time. Managing up, influencing. How do you get the reality of what's happening in the business across to the people who are leading the business?

Dana Calder (31:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (32:04)
And it's so fascinating to me that instead of going and listening to the people who are doing the work, who are in it and experiencing that work, that instead you would go out and hire someone else to come in to then come tell you what your business is doing.

Because why?

Dana Calder (32:38)
because we want to believe in expert. We want to believe someone who's built up their marketing, they've built up their influence, they've built up, ⁓ you know, how they're perceived amongst different individuals that you respect. You're listen to that person.

Amy Knott Parrish (33:00)
I just don't, I've never, hierarchy just does not make a lick of sense to me. I just don't, I don't understand why, like, you're a this, so that means that I just need to.

Dana Calder (33:03)
You

Amy Knott Parrish (33:18)
obey or sit down or shut up or not talk because you know better than I do. That just says never from when I was really little. I used to get trouble all the time.

It seems like that, that industrial view of the hierarchy of the business, which is like, I'm the president and so I'm the smartest. And then it goes down and then the worker on the line is like, but what do you know? You're just a worker on a factory line. But actually.

using if you were in a relationship.

you would be able to access so much more.

Reality?

Do you think that's why we have to go so fast is because we're just never in the reality of what's actually happening?

Dana Calder (34:27)
Yes, that's why. And the best leaders I've seen who can move through and disrupt the system in the way that organizations needed to be disrupted take a bottoms up approach and they listen to the workers and they know how to pair their experience, their influence

whatever they had on their resume to get them in the door and get the job to shape how that individual who is the leader needs to hear it. But what I always value is the ones who give credit back and will elevate people along the way to go. Yes.

So and so gave me that great idea and I was glad to see that they were able to take it over the line. We were able to build out this whole process because so and so led the charge.

Amy Knott Parrish (35:30)
It's the...

It's it's what I was thinking about is like the blurred lines of the hierarchy. And so if you have the person, the worker for just the sake of explanation, who is in the work and has

a way of looking at things that could make things better.

But we forget that as we move up in the hierarchy, we also not only do we gain responsibility, but we let go of responsibility.

And if you're in relationship, you can, I don't know if this is true or not, but you can let go of the role of worker to be in the role of the person leading the work.

But people up in the hierarchy are holding on to the, to that they also have to know how to do the work instead of being able to let go of that to be a leader. Does that, do you know what I mean?

Dana Calder (36:49)
That

totally makes sense. Yes. The worker can inform the day to day and they're so close to it. So they know all the nuances. And I think for leaders who move up, where the friction point comes is if someone goes, well, do you know how that works and how that could be fixed or thought of in the next six to 12 months? So now instead of,

Letting them think high level about the system to improve it. You still want them to validate that they know the nuances of the ins and outs. You want them to do both, but that's not truly what you need. The leader doing both. leader having to think about the system and what the system should look like in the next year to two years.

Amy Knott Parrish (37:35)
Who's doing both?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dana Calder (37:51)
but you don't trust them to just think about it high level. You want them to also tell you all the nuances of what needs to go in. Rather than letting them talk with their workers and go here, this is what I'm thinking in terms of where the system needs to be, the leader thinking about the system for the next year or so. And the workers who are close to it go.

Yeah, I see where you're going. Let's think about this and build this out more intimately together. Here's how this is my section. This is what I'm thinking and getting in there and then allowing that leader to have that all that whole plan rolled up and go, OK, I'm going to just talk high level because I trust my workers to carry out everything else you're seeing on this plan. And whoever.

their person is that they report to go, but I want to know about this little piece down here. No, no, no, no. Remember, I'm trying to tell you and let's all trust that our workers can do all those little nuances. Well, I don't know them. What you don't need to know them. You've seen the output of their work. but I want you to tell me all the pieces. They're not here.

but we've delivered.

Amy Knott Parrish (39:02)
It's,

yeah, it becomes, again, it seems like it becomes relational in ways that it should not be.

Dana Calder (39:13)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (39:15)
that the work itself is not the relational piece. But then we make it about trust, about not getting it wrong, about, ⁓ if we do this and then I look foolish, so I have to go down and micromanage everybody so my reputation doesn't suffer, instead of being able to trust and not.

do so much work managing the system that we are stopping, we're plugging the work.

so we look good.

Dana Calder (39:56)
Yeah, it's perception.

Amy Knott Parrish (39:58)
Yeah, a lot of it. A lot of it. Which is that relational piece in a place where it doesn't seem like it belongs.

Dana Calder (39:59)
Mm-hmm.

It's not necessary.

Amy Knott Parrish (40:16)
and then you have.

work coming down that doesn't understand the capability of what's happening in the day-to-day work. And so it feels like things just happen by magic.

Dana Calder (40:36)
which they don't because the workers have interpreted some of what has come down and they reasonably know what trade-offs they can do or what the realistic work looks like and they move forward. Or...

They kind of give up, the workers, and they're just like, well, I guess if this is what you want me to build, and you don't want me to question or give my insight of what's reasonable, okay, I'll build that thing.

Amy Knott Parrish (41:14)
Yeah, then you just end up with a bunch of yes people making a bunch of like slide decks and meetings.

Dana Calder (41:21)
Or, you know, the worker did build the thing and then their leader comes back and is like, thanks for building that thing. But actually, we need to build something else completely different. But I thought I had mentioned to you, I thought we needed to build that thing, but you said build this. And now you're coming back and saying that thing isn't important and now I need you to build this.

Amy Knott Parrish (41:35)
Yeah.

Dana Calder (41:49)
They're like, make it make sense.

Amy Knott Parrish (41:51)
And it doesn't.

Dana Calder (41:53)
It doesn't because you got too in the weeds.

Amy Knott Parrish (41:57)
I think the word trust is huge here. What do you think?

Dana Calder (42:02)
It is huge. The organizations that have high trust and allow their workers to interpret whatever their customers' ⁓ prospects are saying needs to happen. They have their finger on the pulse of what's going on in the industry. They talk to their peers. They're excited by what they do. they're like, you know what we need to do?

We need to be thinking about this in a year. Like they're bringing that back. And if you would just say, cool, yeah, let's do it. Instead of, I don't know, this is what I was thinking. There's this rigidness that's like, I want to be the one who came up with that idea.

Amy Knott Parrish (42:49)
This reminds me of.

Both of my kids used to be on the swim team. My oldest was, they were both great swimmers, but my oldest was a really good swimmer. But the problem was that while she was swimming, she would watch the people in the other lanes and was not concentrating on her swim. And so they would take off and she would be out front and then she'd start looking for people.

and start to fall back, fall back, fall back. Be second, be third. Not because she wasn't good at what she was doing, but because she was so busy looking at what everybody else was doing that her focus was not with what was her thing.

And I don't know what you think about this, but like, We.

Forget that if we make something good and we're reliable, people will stick with us.

that I don't have to be watching what everybody else is doing if I'm taking care of my people and taking care of my business. And doesn't mean you're not aware.

But the focus is so dispersed.

Dana Calder (44:28)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Knott Parrish (44:31)
that it just feels like a freaking clown car.

Dana Calder (44:37)
then you're distracted from just running your own race because you're so busy looking to see where they are in the other lanes. What's interesting though, think about running and racing and you're trained from the beginning, at least I was as a more leisure runner racer to not worry about.

everyone else because they have their own pace, they have their own personal records they're striving for, and you have yours, it's defined of what you're trying to accomplish, and you only have so much fuel in the tank, you've got to focus on that.

Amy Knott Parrish (45:02)
Right.

Dana Calder (45:17)
rather than trying to catch up to this other person who you don't know their story, you don't know what they're working on type thing. And running is set up at least with racing that you have groups by time. And so there's this comfortability, like it's okay. It's like right there in your face. It's okay to be these different pace groups. It's completely accepted to show up different and

to be wherever and runners can look like whatever. But in business and systems, it's like, no, we're not going to allow this level of inclusivity. We're not going to have all of these different groups and people and innovation and ideas. ⁓ We want just what we want. But I will say the organizations that do understand

that their workers bring innovation, different ideas, can potentially think differently, and you can supercharge your organization and the products that come out of it because there's difference, those are the ones that are going to innovate faster and do well because they understand the power of their people.

Amy Knott Parrish (46:37)
I'm curious if, I wanna know what, as we're getting close to the end of our time together today, my gosh, I just wanna talk to you about this every week. I'm gonna figure out a way to do that. ⁓ If you were starting a company,

And you know the systems that are at work. You're very familiar with all of the things that are in play right now in business and in the corporate world. What would your system be like?

Dana Calder (47:10)
Mm-hmm.

I think because I am neurodivergent, I know I operate very well with explicit direction and guidance. if it was my company and my interview process, like it would be so detailed.

Exactly what the hiring process is, exactly what the job description is, what I think the day-to-day looks like, but I want to give room for you to tell me what you think your day-to-day looks like. Clear goals, this is what I'm thinking. So that way, when you meet with me or if you had a leader that I hired, you meet with them.

There is a core operating system. So I don't need to be in your weeds. I got other things that I'm interested in. You just tell me what's working, what's not working. It's how I lead today. I don't need to be in the weeds. I trust who I hired. You go do it. And if something's going on, we can talk, I'm not, I don't have time to be in your stuff every single day, nor do I want to. If I hired you, I probably don't want to do that job.

I want to do the job that I'm doing. And so that's how I would operate and be quite honest of how I show up and how I think. I wouldn't hide it. I wouldn't mask it. I've chatted with people during interprocesses and been pretty open of how I show up and why and why I'm striving for coaching certification. And I saw this individual take a breath.

you told me a little of who your authentic self is. Yeah, this is how I think. This is why I think this way. I think giving people that freedom.

Amy Knott Parrish (49:03)
It's almost, I wrote down methodology and consensus, which I love. I love both of those words, thinking about work. And the way that if you're clear and you're naming what's happening, I mean, for me, like you said, I want you to tell me how to do, like, I want details, like saying.

I love like and you're gonna get to the end of the street and there's gonna be a stop sign and then you're gonna go right at the stop sign and then you're gonna walk in the door and you order at the left hand counter not the right hand counter like please tell me I love I love instructions.

And if you're operating in that way, it feels like two of the hardest things are you can't say no, period really, but you can't say no to your boss is one thing. And be nice, don't cause discomfort.

and ugh, like you made a face, I feel the same freaking way. I'm like.

Dana Calder (50:10)
This is how I get in

trouble, because I don't like any of those things at all. And along with what you share around consensus and just being clear.

telling people what good looks like and what you don't like. And even for peers I work closely with, like, when we worked on that project, was expecting, help me understand. And it is not after the project has ended. It is like, we're working on it together. And I'm like, hey, I want to talk about this aspect. Other people are like, ooh, can't you just wait? Well, what am I supposed to build it all up and not just tell you the truth?

Who gains anything? Then you're going to think that I thought that was okay and that I waited and now I'm telling you this rather than giving you the feedback.

Amy Knott Parrish (51:03)
Yeah, why can't it seem, I just feel like it would be so amazing to be part of a workplace where no is normal, where tension is not a problem. Like challenges are good, it means that the work is dynamic and people are paying attention and are also willing to stand up for what they see and believe.

Dana Calder (51:35)
I like that.

Amy Knott Parrish (51:37)
No matter but when you said clarity the first thing I thought was yeah clarity is fine from the top down but clarity up Well, you don't know what you're talking about You need to be quiet or you better watch out because if you're clear and that goes against what's Coming down then you're gonna get in trouble and you're gonna be seen as a problem and not a team not a team player

And when the big rounds of layoffs coming, your name's gonna be on that list, because you didn't say yes when you should have.

Like there's no way, what about truth? No wonder there's no trust, cause nobody can tell the truth.

Dana Calder (52:22)
Yeah, because you're figuring out how to tell truth to potentially just someone who you don't have a relationship with.

Amy Knott Parrish (52:31)
and you can't trust that they are gonna take care of you if you tell them the truth. But then when you ask people, ⁓ well, would you want somebody to tell you? Yeah, yeah. Like, you say that, but in practice, is that what's actually happening?

It feels like there's just all of these one-way stories that go on from both directions without the other half of the story so we can actually have some clarity about what the hell's going on.

Dana Calder (53:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Amy Knott Parrish (53:21)
So what's a good way to wrap this up? What's a thought that you're having?

Dana Calder (53:29)
I'm thinking how when you can have that level of team leader honesty.

You can go so much further. You can have a relationship. You can have humor. You can enjoy the work together. It doesn't have to feel so heavy. It can actually be shared. I was thinking about how for years I've liked this place to eat lunch at. And the local people know. And someone newer on the team was like, said in our Slack channel.

I can't say that place. That place is bland. The food is bland. And I feel like I saw everyone's indrawn breath. Like, what will she do? my God. He doesn't like the place that she likes to eat. I just put a laughing emoji. It was like, you're probably right. I need to let that one go. You are right. It's gone downhill, but I just it's just a nostalgia thing. And they're just like, she can take a joke. I like, yeah, y'all can take a joke. It's not it's not that serious. And so it's like

Lighten up, lighten up and let's have some humor. Let's realize we're human and nobody has to live in the staunch right or wrong and be okay with adaptability and seeing something from a different perspective. Trust the expert that comes into your realm and wants to give you some advice. Don't refute it.

Amy Knott Parrish (54:56)
Yeah.

Dana Calder (55:04)
Trust the person who gives you the sourdough starter that came all the way from San Francisco that is probably gonna change your world and make better bread.

Amy Knott Parrish (55:11)
Right. Yes. Yeah. Change. Change can be okay. Especially if you're paying attention and remembering that you're part of the system that is working while you're working.

Dana Calder (55:15)
change.

Amy Knott Parrish (55:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dana Calder (55:35)
Yeah, I get it. can be daunting to think about how can I create huge systemic change? I think of how I can bring a little more joy to my day and someone else's day and the work I'm And then reminding myself sometimes, am I doing surgery? No, I work at a tech company. Relax.

Amy Knott Parrish (56:01)
Yeah, we do take ourselves really seriously, don't we? It's, yeah, that would be something else interesting to think about. All right, well, more conversations about this. I think we just scratched the surface of something really interesting. I just love talking about this stuff, and so I'm so glad that you like to do it too. And yeah, we'll talk about it again.

Dana Calder (56:06)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well thanks for having me on again Amy. It was just a joy and a pleasure. ⁓

Amy Knott Parrish (56:31)
Yeah. Yay. All right.

I'm going to stop the recording.

Amy Knott Parrish (56:39)
Many thanks to Dana Calder for always being willing to join me in conversations about business and work that are unconventional.

If this conversation sparked something for you, you're not alone in that.

These ideas are still unfolding and a lot of what we're naming here is meant to be explored in real time, not neatly resolved. If you want to keep thinking about this stuff in community, I host Rebelling Study Hall on Saturdays from 1130 to 1230 Eastern. It's a space where we sit with these questions together, slow things down a bit and actually talk through what it looks like to live and work differently in real time. You can find details for that in the show notes or at

Rebelling.me. As always, keep questioning what doesn't make sense and paying attention to what does. Until next time, keep rebelling.

Amy Knott Parrish (57:46)
Thanks for taking the time to listen to Rebelling. You can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes or at rebelling.me slash podcast. Next time we'll keep questioning what we've been taught, naming what doesn't make sense and turning towards directions that do make sense all while we figure out what they are until then.

Keep rebelling.