Behind The White Coat - Real Talk For Physician Spouses
Being married to medicine comes with challenges—long hours, relocations, and feeling like you’re navigating it all alone. That’s where this podcast comes in.
I’m sharing the things I wish someone had told me—how to survive medical training, juggle parenting, manage finances, and actually build a life you love. We’ll cover everything from making friends in a new city to understanding insurance, finding childcare, and staying connected as a couple.
Some episodes will be just me, sharing real stories and lessons learned. Other times, I’ll bring on expert guests—financial advisors, physician spouses, and those who’ve been through it all—to offer practical advice.
Most of all, this is a place for community. A space where you can feel understood, supported, and even laugh along the way. Because being married to medicine doesn’t mean doing it alone.
So grab a coffee (or wine!), and let’s talk about the real side of life Behind The White Coat.
Behind The White Coat - Real Talk For Physician Spouses
#19| Finding Your Roots: How Self-Trust Transforms Healing
Cindy Payne shares her journey from elementary school teacher to licensed professional counselor, describing how she blends clinical therapy with yoga and mindfulness to create a holistic approach to mental health care.
• From teaching to therapy – how Cindy's interest in relationships over education led to her counseling career
• Building Rooted Counseling Services during the pandemic and how crisis created opportunity
• The significance behind the name "Rooted" and its connection to yoga philosophy
• Cindy's personal journey with sobriety and transformative solo retreats to Bali, India, and Morocco
• Using Winston, her therapy dog in training, to help clients develop emotional awareness
• Creating the "Unmasking" podcast to break down barriers between therapists and clients
• Parenting neurodivergent children and the importance of repair after rupture
• Practical somatic techniques for managing anxiety and stress
• Simple strategies like legs-up-the-wall pose that can replace 30-45 minutes of deep rest
Follow Cindy on Instagram or visit her website for contact details and to learn more about her services.
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Behind the White Coat. As always, grateful to have you guys here and thankful for you taking the time to spend with me, and I'm excited for many, many reasons to introduce you to today's guest. My friend and before we started this we were just talking how long we've known each other, and it has been since middle school- and for those of you that don't know me.
Speaker 1:that was a long time ago, like 35 years ago, so I am excited. Today I've got my friend, Cindy Payne, who is a licensed professional counselor supervisor and a certified yoga teacher with over 20 years of experience in education and mental health. She began her career as a teacher and then later earned her master's degree in counseling and launched her own private practice, Rooted Counseling, in Frisco, Texas. She specializes in supporting individuals facing anxiety, depression and trauma, often during life transitions. Her work is grounded in compassion and a holistic approach that blends clinical insight with mindfulness. She's also the host of Unmasking, a mental health podcast exploring the deeper, often unseen, layers of emotional well-being. Cindy, so happy to have you here.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:I know, just so excited for us to reconnect and just see all the successes for you, your business, your sweet family as it grows throughout the year, and I just appreciate you taking the time to chat with me and share all of your knowledge, all of your experience, with our listeners today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's my pleasure. It's so fun. When I saw you were starting your podcast, I just immediately knew that we had to collaborate in some way. So thanks for having me. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Well, so I gave your intro, but tell us a little bit in your own words about your family and just what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Sure Well, what it looks like as of right now. You and I were just talking about this before we hopped on here to record, but we are in the middle of a major transition. We have three boys who are now all adults. I have a 20-year-old and 18-year-old twin boys. My twins are going to be there in their senior year of high school. My oldest is going back to college next week. I feel that, yeah, yeah, it's that time of year again and it just hits differently. In fact, I was in Target yesterday and saw all the school supplies and all the little kids that were so excited picking out all of their things, and I just had this moment where it welled up inside of me because it doesn't feel like that long ago. But yeah, we are. Home base is Frisco, that's where my practice is, that's where we are, but we spend a good portion of time between here and California, which is where we own a trade show company out in Northern California. So that's a new fun twist in our life.
Speaker 1:You guys are busy and I feel all those same emotions when you're talking about school and where life is at as far as in this season of life with the kids. I'm that mom that has cried every year the first day of school from kindergarten on. Cooper will be going to his sophomore year of college and I know that I'm going to be just as emotional it doesn't seem to get any easier but also the same exciting times and emotions that I feel for them, just as they grow and they blossom. And then you kind of look back and you're like you know I did a pretty good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we made it, we made it, we're making it Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah Well, tell the listeners a little bit about your practice.
Speaker 2:Sure, so I guess I'll back up a little bit. I started out in education as an elementary school teacher, but I always knew that I wanted to do something with mental health. I think I just was always more invested in the relationship piece than I was the education piece, although I did enjoy that. But I loved learning about the families and the kids. I think that, combined with just a little bit of my own history, sent me into this mental health field. So I went back and got my master's when my boys were in elementary school and worked for our school district as a crisis counselor and really loved that job.
Speaker 2:But it was a bit of a triage situation in that I was working with a lot of higher needs individuals and I wasn't really getting to do as deep of the work that I wanted to do. So in 2020, right before the pandemic hit I decided that I was going to go out into the private practice field and little did I know, but everything would be shut down. It actually worked out in our favor, I think, as mental health professionals, because everybody during that time really needed somebody to talk to to process what was happening, and so it just kind of organically took off from there and I've had my private practice since, yeah, 2020. And I'm just a one-woman show but I do collab with a lot of other mental health practitioners in the area. With a lot of other mental health practitioners in the area I work with ages primarily, I would say, college age, up until, I guess maybe my oldest client is in his 60s, so across the lifespan.
Speaker 2:But I love it. It's a hard job but it is a rewarding job. I see everything from generalized anxiety to trauma-related effects and you know just, it varies. All the things in between, all the things right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's amazing. First of all, congrats on starting that.
Speaker 1:And then what an optimal time when people were needing it for various different reasons lost jobs or, on the flip side for me it was super stressful because Chris had to work quite a bit the hospitals didn't close down and the stress is there, what they were seeing, what they had to cover, and so I am sure you had all types of clients with different stresses, different anxiety levels, and thankfully they had you and that it didn't have to happen in person for them to actually get the help that they needed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just a space. Just a space to just bring all of the stuff Right, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:And I love the name of your practice Rooted Counseling Services.
Speaker 2:So tell us a little bit about its name yeah it's something that I thought on for such a long time.
Speaker 2:I would just toy with different ideas, but I kept coming back to Rooted because it's something that has some meaning, like in the yoga world, for me. So I have been practicing yoga since probably gosh early 2000s, 2003, well before I had kids, and really dove back into it pretty seriously about six or seven years ago. And in yoga we talk a lot about rooting to rise, being grounded before you can make a lot of the bigger changes in your life or the or you know, big decisions for yourself, and I don't know. It just kind of kept coming back to me rooted, you know, like what does that really mean to be rooted? And so there's different things you can take from that. It could be your family of origin, but it can also be, you know, going back and doing a little bit of pruning and revising your story and understanding those parts of your story so that you can grow, maybe in a different direction and that you can thrive honestly, regardless of what your backstory is or the history that you're carrying with you Right.
Speaker 1:I love that. And, piggybacking off of your yoga topic there, I know that you recently went on kind of a retreat right and I was following your journey there, so tell us a little bit. It's funny this started back in 2022.
Speaker 2:I was about 3 or 4 years, pretty deep into my practice, wanted to get certified as a yoga teacher. Wasn't sure how I would incorporate that in my practice, but knew that I would figure it out somehow. Back in 2022, I also made a decision for myself to go alcohol-free and just try that out and see what it would do for me, and I found a yoga retreat in Bali, indonesia, and it was for women who were sober, curious and just wanted to experience the effects of kind of a, I guess, non-traditional path of healing and I thought this is it, this is what I'm going to do. So I went to my husband, bounced the idea by him.
Speaker 2:He was like yeah, he's like sure. I mean, yeah, go for it, do it. And so I did and I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified to go by myself that far away, not knowing anybody there. And I went, I was there for about 10 days and came away from that experience with self-trust, just kind of this, I don't know newfound spark underneath me that like, oh, I really did that, I really went and had that experience and I figured it out and I was terrified. But look, and so that just kind of gained momentum. And the next year I did the same thing with the same group, went to India, and then this year I went by myself to Morocco. So it's kind of one of these things now where it's a dedicated time and space for myself to go deepen my practice, meet other people, experience new cultures and strengthen self-trust every time I go. So I don't know where it's going to be this next year, but time I go, so I don't know where it's going to be this next year.
Speaker 1:But, wow, amazing. And I remember following you on both trips because you had posted and I thought what courage. First of all because I messaged you Courage or crazy? Well, maybe a little mix of both, but I messaged you and I was like, first of all, congratulations, this is phenomenal, this is so inspiring, and are you there by yourself?
Speaker 1:And then, when you were like yeah, I was like, wow, I don't know if I could ever do that, but seeing your journey, I totally would want to do something like that.
Speaker 1:And I also remember something else that you had inspired me was being alcohol-free, and we talked about it before I actually took the leap. So August will be two years that both my husband and I are alcohol-free, and for us it was a combination of things of just trying to get healthy, trying to remove toxins, trying to focus on longevity, and as I got older it just didn't make me feel good and it didn't matter what I had or how much, I just was foggy and kind of sluggish. And it's definitely been life-changing for sure. And my husband and I also decided the last couple of months to start hot yoga together, and so we've been doing that together, which has been great. And we took a mindfulness class when our youngest son was like two so that's been like 15 years ago and I'm out of practice and need to implement it because it also was very centering, it was very calming and in today's world of this, I feel like we could all benefit from that, and so I would love to go on one of those retreats.
Speaker 2:Yes, I will get you the information and it's interesting.
Speaker 1:How do you?
Speaker 2:find them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I literally googled sober yoga retreats or sober curious yoga retreats, and so I remember having a back and forth chat with you a little bit here and there about it, and I think for me and I talk about this a lot with my clients who are thinking about it, sober curious I think one of the biggest misconceptions is just that you have to have this rock bottom moment or you have to have a problematic relationship with it. Well, yeah, okay For some people, that is true, but, like you said, just wanting to feel better and, most importantly, wanting to kind of feel free of something, just that I didn't like the constant tug and pull of what are we going to drink and, as we age, as women, waking up and feeling the effects of it. Waking up and feeling the effects of it. It's just not worth it for me.
Speaker 1:Nope, nope, and you know, we knew that we were good when we didn't have to have a drink. When we went out, when we went to a wedding, when we went on a trip, when we went to an all-inclusive resort, it was, I mean, and that's when we both were like, okay, we get it, and just us feeling better and having that clarity was all we needed. Yes, yes, absolutely yeah. So again, thank you for inspiring me in multiple, multiple ways. So I appreciate that All right. So let's shift gears. Tell us all about Winston.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, he's asleep at my feet right now, otherwise I'd put him on camera. It's funny. In the same vein of children launching and leaving the nest, I have been feeling this. I don't know if I would say, well, maybe it's just grief. I'll just call it grief. It's this anticipatory grief of I'm going to be an empty nester next year and we have an aging golden retriever and a crazy chihuahua that we inherited from my grandfather, and so I thought you know what is a way that I could create more chaos in my life? Yeah, and let's just add a little furry friend, add a puppy to the mix. Let's get a puppy. Yeah, so much to my spouse's disagreement, I guess, but he loves him.
Speaker 2:Now Went and found this lovely furry, bernie Doodle, and he is actually my therapy dog in training, so he comes to work with me. He's working up to about three days a week. We're not there quite yet, but he is going to be entering into the therapy dog training program as soon as he gets done with his manners three class. He's just gosh. I don't know something about pets, something about dogs. They bring joy, they do, they bring joy. And it's interesting, he's not for everybody that I work with, and so I do have some clients that are like, yeah, let's just keep it between you and me today, which I respect that. But for a lot of my clients, having him in the room can be really grounding and soothing to just have that presence. And we talk about nervous system regulation. You were talking about mindfulness. I do truly believe that a dog is medicine on some level.
Speaker 1:I do too, and I think a lot of times they sense things, oh, 100%, and they give you what you need when you don't even know what it is you need. I also think something texture-wise as far as with the animals. So how are you using him, or what is the goal as far as you're using him in your practice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I use him a lot right now with my adolescent clients. For starters, we talk a lot about noticing where we feel things in our body. You know, I have a lot of adolescents that will come in and they've got a lot of TikTok, vernacular about dissociation and is there something wrong? Do I have like dissociative identity disorder and all of that, and I go whoa, whoa, whoa. Before we start pathologizing, let's just even talk about what it is to feel grounded and in your body.
Speaker 2:And for a lot of these young people they don't really have the language or the skillset yet to even notice that because we're in that constant information overload age. And so I find having him in there is just a good, I guess, bridge for us to be able to talk about. Where do you notice that that's coming up? Okay, well, look, let's use him for an example. How can we tell that he's getting really activated or nervous or stressed? So he's a tool in many different ways in sessions and the goal would be to have him full time with me eventually and I'd love to even have him do some nursing homework, some hospital visits. He's been to my grandfather's nursing home in.
Speaker 2:Georgetown and he loves that, and so I'd love to just expand it beyond my practice.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure he's a great tool to just help, especially with the adolescents, like just to break down walls, the barriers, where a lot of times it's hard to be raw and it's hard to be real and show your emotions, and so I'm sure he helps with that. He's a bit of a comfort and kind of the go-between between you and your clients.
Speaker 2:So I love that.
Speaker 1:He's a bit of a comfort and kind of the go-between between you and your clients. So Sure, yeah, I love that. How old is he now? He is like seven months.
Speaker 2:So he's still a babe, he's still a babe, yes, but growing like crazy, I'm sure. Yes, and huge.
Speaker 1:Just adore him. Well, I also wanted you to touch base on your podcast, so I have listened to it. It's phenomenal. I think you and your co-host are great together. I think your voice is inviting and I think it is just genuinely caring. I love how open you guys are on your podcast. I love how open your relationship is with your kids. Will you tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is something that my co-host and I, sarah, have been dreaming about talking about for a long time. Sarah and I met in grad school when we were both going through the program to become LPCs, and so we've been friends for a really long time. She's watched my boys grow up, she has a daughter who is six, and she's my goddaughter, actually and we both share something in common, and that we both have neurodivergent children my oldest and her daughter and, along with many wonderful things that come with neurodivergence, this creative mind and just this hunger to learn things and connect with people.
Speaker 2:There can be many challenges, both for the individual and for the parent. It's like emotional regulation how to show up for your kids as a regulated adult when your child is maybe struggling to understand themselves and their place in the world. And I'm going to be totally transparent, it hasn't been. It has not been easy, and so she and I were kind of, I guess, kindred spirits in that way, and that we both could really relate to each other's experiences of gosh. We want to be fierce advocates for our kids and we also want to be able to break cycles and understand our own reactions to our children's learning differences. And you know emotional challenges and things like that, and so I think sometimes the idea that being a therapist means that you have everything figured out and that you've cracked the code and you've passed the test, and so it can sometimes create, I think, this like wedge between you and the client, that like, oh, because we have the training, we should be able to just navigate our own lives without bumps in the road, which couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 2:And I find that disclosure, you know, when used appropriately, can be very healing for people, because it's like, oh, I can see myself in your story, or I can see parts of my struggle in your story as well, and so that authenticity can be helpful for moving us, I think, through shame, which can keep us quiet and silent and feeling like we can't show up in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or you're going to be judged because of whatever you're going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And so with the podcast, our thought was, like, you know, we're all walking around wearing masks and showing what we want to show, but we're deeply alone in our pain sometimes when we do that. And so what if we took that platform as LPCs and threw in a little bit of our own stories and broached topics that were a little hard for us to talk about just in conversations with our friends and we just use it as a way to spread awareness and hopefully make people feel a little less alone? Yeah, and so that's what we've been doing, and it's still in its very baby stages, but it's fun. You know, it's a fun creative outlet for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm sure you've helped so many people listeners who, like you said, can relate, but they don't feel quite comfortable to talk about whatever their feelings are, whatever their situation is, and you know when you're talking about your kiddos. First of all, parenting is hard. It's hard, and when you throw into the mix life and emotions, learning differences, finances, whatever those stressors are, it's really difficult. And the thing that I remind my kids of all things is this is my first rodeo, I haven't parented before, and so I try to tell them give me grace, just like I'm trying to give you grace.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think, as parents, it's easy to sometimes look at other people in the way they parent and maybe pass thoughts or judgment, and when you are not in those shoes and you don't know what's going on behind closed doors, I think, like we said, we have to give people grace, and having your podcast and having it where it is an open door for people to share, people to express themselves, I think is huge and healing in itself for people that you probably haven't even met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I'm so glad you said that because, yes, I would hope so, I would hope so, and it's it's very common to look at someone's situation and kind of go, well, I can kind of see where that went that way.
Speaker 2:But I laugh because it's like before we had kids we'd be at a restaurant and I'd be like, well, when I'm a parent, and then you're faced with your own children and you're like, okay, we're going to just pivot and we're going to do the best we can in this, but also just being aware of your own stuff, your own unhealed stuff that you bring to the table. And so I do truly believe that if you can be open and curious to it, you will hopefully be able to have your kids as your teachers, just as much as you are teaching and guiding them Absolutely and I feel like I learn from them constantly.
Speaker 1:I also feel as a parent. They learn from you even in the times that you make your mistakes. I own my mistakes and we learn from them together and I think it's a great teaching moment for them to see we're not perfect, we don't have all this figured out, and vice versa. We don't expect them to have it all figured out, and part of life and life's lessons are making those mistakes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're still making them as adults.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, and we will continue. But it's, you know, as I always say to parents and have to say to myself too. You know, it's not so much about the rupture, it's about the repair process.
Speaker 1:We're going to have ruptures, so good, say that again. I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's not so much about rupture. It's. What's important is what we do after the rupture the repair and I think you know, just being a child of the 80s and 90s, that's not a lot of what our parents were informed about. Just to give them a little bit of a past, I think this is all new lingo. So I think it's a beautiful thing that we're raising kids with an emotional vocabulary that a lot of us didn't have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and an awareness right To kind of sit in those feelings like be aware of it and then we'll figure it out. So, depending on what people are going through right now, of course listeners have all kinds of issues feelings, anxiety. Do you have anything that they could take away today, whether it's advice, a tip, multiple tips, that they could implement today? Start today to try to heal, try to move forward, try to be self-aware, or implement mindfulness. Do you have anything that we could take away today to actually use to our advantage? Sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, first and foremost for me as a therapist, I do a lot of somatic work with clients and so basically what that means is just understanding where you're experiencing things in your body, because I think we can talk all day about what's going on in our lives and how that's stopping us or preventing us from healing or feeling better, but if we don't really access what's happening inside of us, then it's really kind of something that can keep us stuck and in this pattern of like, I keep coming back to the thing that's causing the stress, but I'm not really like getting in there, you know, and cleaning out the wounds, so to speak.
Speaker 2:And so I think, the wounds, so to speak.
Speaker 2:And so I think, first and foremost, understanding that when we're discussing emotional topics with our partner, with a family member, with a friend, we have to really be aware of our own activation, so tuning into those signs of activation in yourself, and so, for example, that might show up as shorter breaths.
Speaker 2:I'm a breath holder, so if I'm stressed about something, I notice I'm really shallow in my breathing, or racing thoughts, rumination, thinking about the same thing over and over, or maybe getting really heated and having a reaction to something and then afterwards going okay, wait, like what, why was I so activated or frustrated about that, right? So just even building that awareness of these are emotional topics for me, and maybe I know why and maybe I don't. But for right now what I'm going to be focusing on is tuning in to my body and when I notice I'm up in my head. Tuning in to my body, and when I notice I'm up in my head, how can I kind of safely drop from my head and into my body and get myself more grounded and regulated? And so, if that is brisk, walking for me is always one, because that's actually a form of EMDR, which is what we use a lot in the therapy world for trauma work.
Speaker 2:So, because it's that patterned left, right, left- right left, right, so noticing how you feel before and after right, maybe trying out some breathing techniques when you're not activated For yoga a lot I will work with clients on, for example, laying. I know this might sound a little weird, but laying on the ground with your legs up the wall for five minutes is the equivalent of like a 30 to 45 minute deep nap, you know.
Speaker 1:Really Some restorative practices.
Speaker 2:It works great for insomnia and rumination. Oh Lord, I've got to. Yeah, I need to do that. Yeah, yeah. So just really being able to get to know kind of your internal landscape, I guess, and your own activation patterns would be kind of my number one place to start. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that and very easy to implement, no matter what it is that you're going through, so I will be definitely doing my legs up on the wall for five minutes to help with my insomnia. Well, so if someone's listening and they have questions, they are maybe thinking about working with somebody and maybe they don't live local in Frisco or wherever that may be. As far as where they're located, what's their next steps? As far as the best way to contact you to find out about your services, your fees, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. I'm at Rooted Counseling Services, my website, right now. I'm doing a little bit of a rebrand right now, but currently you can find me at RootedCounselingServicesFriscocom. That's about to change, just to my first and last name, cindypaynecom. Or you can always find me at TheUnmaskingPodcastcom, and then our Instagram handle is UnmaskedTherapists. Love it, and so, yeah, those would be like the two main places that you could, that you could find me great, and if they're not in Frisco, they could still work with you, though yeah, if they're in the state of Texas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely okay okay, well, very exciting, and thank you for your time and just sharing your expertise. I know that there's always people listening that can use little nuggets here and there to know that they're not alone. Other people are going through these things as well, and there are a lot of avenues you can go to get the help that you need. So I appreciate you and your time, and we'll definitely have to do this again, oh it's been fun.
Speaker 2:Amanda, thank you so much for having me on and congrats on your new podcast. I can't wait to see where it goes. It's exciting, thank you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you so, so much. And right back at you, friend, and for all you listeners, until next time. That's a wrap on this episode of Behind the White Coat. I hope today's conversation left you feeling more understood and supported, and if you enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to subscribe, leave a review or share it with another physician spouse. Your support helps more of us to connect. Keep in mind, this podcast is for you, so let's keep this conversation going. Dm me on Instagram at Amanda Barron Realtor with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions or even guest suggestions. I would really love to hear from you. Thanks for spending part of your day with me and remember you are never in this alone. See you next time.