Behind The White Coat - Real Talk For Physician Spouses

#29| How Physician Spouses Hold Families Together Through Burnout

• Amanda • Season 1 • Episode 29

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We explore the hidden cost of physician burnout on families and why spouses often become the strongest protector against stress and disconnection. Dr. Lisa Muhlenbein shares practical habits, the MedLife Matrix framework, and a clear case for hospitals to include families in well-being programs.

• the 80/20 split of burnout drivers and why organizations must act
• sacrifice, relocation, and loneliness in medical marriages
• how to spot burnout’s ripple at home before it snowballs
• habit stacking for energy, hydration, and gratitude
• building community without a formal alliance
• five-minute daily connection rituals for couples
• the MedLife Matrix linking spouse, physician, organization, patient
• what hospital leaders should change to support families
• resources, quizzes, and an upcoming course
• inclusion notes on dual-physician and LGBTQ families

Just for the listeners here today, I have some bonuses for you. These three goodies, and maybe a few extra surprise ones, are waiting for you at medlifematrix.com/whitecoat. You can grab your exclusive bonuses through the link here. Don’t miss them! 

You can also visit Dr. Lisa A. Muehlenbein’s website or follow her on Instagram to learn more about her services and wellness programs. 

SPEAKER_00:

Hey everyone, welcome back to Behind the White Coat. Today's episode, we are just diving right into the heart of physician well-being, and not just from a doctor's perspective, but from the family unit that surrounds them. Our guest today is Dr. Lisa Muhlenbein, PhD, a leading expert on physician burnout and the ripple effect it has on medical families. She has spent more than 25 years immersed in the medical spouse community, and her research and coaching have been featured in outlets like Elassian Magazine and the AMA Alliance Physician Family Magazine. She is the creator of MedLife Matrix, a framework that helps physicians and their families reclaim balance, connection, and well-being. Her dissertation explored something many of us know firsthand: how the spouse's perspective can shape the entire family's resilience during medical training and practice. We're going to talk about the hidden side of burnout, the vital role of physician spouses, and how families can thrive together even when medicine feels all-consuming. Lisa, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Amanda. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I am so happy to have you. And I feel like this is such an important topic for many different reasons. And I do think we are going to have a lot of listeners that this resonates with. And I think we are going to have a lot of follow-up questions as well once this airs. So I'm sure I'll be reaching back out to you once this one hits and gets published. So you have been a researcher and a spouse in the medical world for over 25 years. Can you share what first sparked your passion to study physician burnout and not just from the physician's perspective, but from the spouse's? How did you get here?

SPEAKER_01:

So I met my husband in his second year of radiology residency. We've been together for 28 years and we've been married for 26 of those. So I've been a part of this community for a long time. And, you know, before social media, before podcasting was a thing. But my research in this field actually kind of came a little bit later. And my journey was a bit interesting. And in my research, it was really validating to see what was happening with other people and know that oh my gosh, what I've experienced is not unique to me. It's a real phenomenon out there. And we were engaged, and he was finishing his last year of residency, and we were getting married, and we were moving. And I was in college and I was like, uh, I'm almost done, but not quite. And I really wanted to tie up loose ends. I didn't want to have to move and transfer and do all of that. Back then it was a paper course catalog because it was in the 90s. Oh, yeah. I looked, here I am dating myself. Hey, I can relate. I can relate. But I looked at the course catalog and said, what can I finish in the time I have left? So I ended up instead of finishing a bachelor's degree in exercise science, I finished an associate degree in early childhood education, which I had no intention of ever using. I just wanted to finish. We had kids, I applied some of that stuff to my children, but I wasn't teaching kindergarten or preschool by any means. So I really put my educational aspirations on hold for the next 20 years. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so during that 20-year period, I was a yoga teacher. So I've been a yoga teacher for 23 years now, I think. But um, I haven't taught so much since COVID because that's when I went back to school. But I had a yoga studio, I held yoga teacher trainings and retreats and traveled. So I did something that was meaningful to me, but that whole time I always wanted to go back to academia. So when COVID happened, I saw kind of what was happening and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm sitting at home, I'm not doing anything. And one of the schools that I had reached out to, that I had inquired to contacted me and said, Hey, we just want to circle back with you and let you know that our next session is starting in two weeks. And I was like, hmm. So I talked to my husband about it because over the years I had looked at many different programs, but the stars just never aligned. At that point, I'm like, you know, again, what else am I doing? So I went back to school. And because I had so many credits already, I finished my bachelor's degree in health and wellness in about a year. I did an accelerated course study. And my goal was to get that degree because I really always just wanted that degree. An interesting thing happened because we were still in COVID. This is 2021 now. We're still in COVID. And every time during my degree that I had an opportunity to write on something that was my choice, I wrote about burnout. Burnout. And then I wrote about physician burnout because my husband was coming home every day and, you know, changing his clothes in the garage, going right upstairs to take a shower, like, you know, back during that time. Yeah. Yeah, back in that time frame where we just had no idea what was happening. So then my focus shifted to writing about physician burnout. I decided to continue on and do my master's and then my PhD. And when I got to my PhD dissertation topic, I was talking to my dissertation chair. I said, I really want to go this route. It's so prevalent. It's, you know, 68.2% of physicians in 2021 were experiencing or reporting symptoms of burnout. And that's that comes from the AMA. Yeah. Yeah. So she said to me, she said, hmm, it's a shame you don't have access to the spouses because this is probably impacting the spouses. And then it was like light bulb moment. Hello. And at that point, I was involved with my county alliance and my state alliance, as well as the AMA alliance. So I had some access. Yeah, county, state, and national levels. And so I went through this whole process, reached out, did a call for participants, and was able to really sit down and interview the spouses of physicians and really gain insight to what their perspective was and what they were experiencing. For this study, the people that I had the most access to were female spouses of male physicians. We do have a rise in females coming into medical school, but currently, in practice, male physicians are still a higher percentage of the ratio. In order to be more generalizable to the population, I went with female spouses of male physicians. And so I sat down with them and went through these interviews. And everything that came out of it was so validating for my own personal experience, but also eye-opening at the same time that there is so much work that needs to be done.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, I love that. And that in your dissertation, how you describe the spouse as one of the most powerful tools in combating burnout.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And so tell us a little bit more about that. When you did this study, when you did your dissertation, how it was affecting the spouse.

SPEAKER_01:

So the data suggests that the spouse is the physician's greatest tool against burnout. And according to the AMA, the American Medical Association, 80% of the factors that contribute to physician burnout are attributed to the organization. So let that sink in for a minute. Wow. That the professional organization holds 80% of the responsibility.

SPEAKER_00:

That's amazing. And that is a crazy high number.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And the physician can only manage and be responsible for 20% of those factors. It's really interesting because a lot of times uh when we talk about like resiliency and programs to help physicians with burnout, they talk about resiliency. But what's interesting is that these physicians have been through so much to get to this point that they're practicing. These are some of the most resilient people in the world. Right, right. Physicians do not need more resiliency programs. Now, spouses, on the other hand, we don't weren't given an instruction manual. Right. The physician has gotten into this roller coaster, strapped in, probably from a very young age, and been, you know, blinders on, full steam ahead. This is my goal. Right. The spouse comes in and they're like coming in mid-ride, strapping in, holding on for dear life. Please do not let this car go off the rails. Yeah. Yeah. But the physician spouses that I talked to, there were 10 themes that evolved during my dissertation. And the first one is sacrifice and loss. The spouses often felt that they gave up careers. They maybe gave up being close to family to relocate, depending on when they jumped on this medical roller coaster. Right. You know, think about it. When people move as a medical family, it kind of parallels military families in a way. Right. I 100% agree. Whenever the relationship starts, it might be we're moving for medical school, we're moving for residency, we're moving for fellowship, we're moving for our first done with training job. And then the majority of physicians don't stay in that first job post-training very long. So I don't know the actual statistic for that on how long they stay, but I know it's not long. Yeah. And so then they're moving again. And I know for us, in our 26 years together, we've made four major moves, lived in four different states, and we've moved within town multiple times. So we've moved together 11 times. Oh wow. That's a lot. It is. So a lot of these spouses felt like they've given up maybe being close to family. They've given up jobs and careers so that the physician can follow their career. And so we are the support system. We are what's holding the family unit together oftentimes. For me, when this came up, I was like, oh my gosh, I put my academic aspirations on hold so that I could support my husband in his career. And within all those moves and basically restarts having to make new friends and meet new people and start a new start a new yes, start a new school, start a new church, do, you know, whatever it is that we're involved in. Manage the move, the whole thing. Yes, managing the move. And this creates a sense of loneliness. People feel lonely, they feel isolated. So the interesting thing with military families, I mentioned that parallel earlier, but with military families, they often have that support system right there. They might be living on base, there's other spouses, there's support groups. It's right there. It's not that way in medicine. Because unfortunately, not all counties have an alliance, not all states have an alliance, but there is the AMA alliance, which is a national organization that can provide some support for individuals wherever they are. But that feeling of loneliness and isolation can also bring depression. It can create anxiety, like here I am by myself. Like, what am I going to do? Who am I going to talk to? How do I get my kids into the right school? Or it's really hard not having that support network.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. I agree. And I think also sometimes people have resentment when they are in this situation. You talked about giving up your career for 20 years. And, you know, it's, I think sometimes one of those taboo things that you can't talk about. You feel bad because, you know, we signed up for this. And so I think it is a combination of not only the loneliness, but finding that support. And we don't have a local alliance here. And so that is something that has been my mission to at least have some sort of support for people here. Maybe it's not an actual alliance, but I think it's so important that people have that. And so that takes me into the next part of my question, where I think a lot of our listeners are raising kids or juggling moves, or they're carrying this family load alone. And so, what are some practical ways that a spouse can support both their partner and themselves without feeling burnout or guilty for that resentment? What would be some practical ways that you would advise them on that?

SPEAKER_01:

Honestly, a lot of that unfortunately lies within.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That we have to get uncomfortable. We have to get out there. We have to put ourselves out there. When I went to meet some people for the first time, it was overwhelmingly hard. Like lots of anxiety because like you don't know these people. And but really plugging into wherever fits your family. So if you have children who are in sports, if they're in after-school activities, you might meet some people there. That's where I met a lot of my friends during one of our moves because we didn't have an alliance where I was at. I met a lot of people through school. And, you know, through church, you meet people through your neighborhood. If you're in a neighborhood that has like a community center or a clubhouse, there may be things that are happening there. But a lot of the women that I spoke with mentioned this as well is that I had to find a hobby for myself. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, 23 years ago, really, it was yoga. I went to the gym and I was taking a yoga class. Right. I was teaching some group fitness stuff. And the owner of the gym said one day, wow, it'd be great if one of my instructors would go get trained to teach yoga. And I was like, okay. And so, yeah. And so I met so many different people through that. But honestly, whatever you have access to, maybe it's a public group at the library. I know like Michael's craft store has a calendar with like, you know, learning how to crochet or painting or pickleball. Pickleball's so huge. I'm down here in Florida, and oh my gosh, pickleball is like the thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Outside of pickleball, the other big thing here that I feel like over time it was Bunko back in the day when I was younger. Now it's that whole mahjong that has taken over. And so, but I think you're right. I think it's putting yourself out there, getting uncomfortable, saying yes to the invitations, even when you really don't want to, that sometimes you've got to kind of create that space. And I'm a big proponent of if you don't have it, then you've got to create it. Do you like to read? You start that book club. You are a walker, you start that walking group. And so I do agree with you that you've got to just kind of find something that fits within your lifestyle, within your needs. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And if I can circle back here for something that you really kind of hit a really good bullseye earlier when you were talking about how we might at times feel guilty for feeling lonely, for feeling isolated. When I conducted these interviews, one of the things that kept coming up was how these women felt misunderstood because they were hearing things. So not only were they just feeling it, but they were being told, well, at least your husband's a doctor. But that would come on the heels of a comment like, why isn't your husband here? Why is he never here at birthday parties? Right. Why does he miss holidays? All of these things we end up as the spouse carrying ourselves and oftentimes leads us to feeling like we're solo parenting. Right. We didn't have it with my oldest kids, but my youngest daughter went to a school where they had like donuts with dad. Oh, yes. I I don't know how many times I went and wore the paper tie and the like felt mustache. Yes. I feel bad for her. But you know, we gotta do what we've gotta do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and make it work. It doesn't mean that it's easy. No, it doesn't mean that we're not gonna feel these things. But I think what you said best is you're not alone in this. Like these are real feelings that a majority of these spouses that you talked to were feeling and just being heard and validated.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And, you know, they felt like, how many times have we rescheduled date night? How many times have we had missed anniversaries? Or you finally make that reservation that you canceled five times and you walk into the restaurant and you sit down, you maybe ordered an appetizer and the pager goes off, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Or we have celebrated Christmas a week later, and everybody else. And I definitely can relate to that. I want to shift gears a little bit to your idea of medlife matrix. Sure. And for listeners who may be new to this or have not heard of that, I would love for you to just describe it to them, what that medlife matrix is.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So if you think of back in the day, back in probably middle school when we learned about the Venn diagram, all those circles kind of converging together in the center. Picture that. One of those circles is the spouse, one of those circles is the physician, one of those circles is the organization, and one of those circles is the patient. So all of those individual pieces come together to make this matrix. Each of those individual circles is not a silo.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

In order to have a functional system, they cannot be independent. So when you think of it like the spouse is supporting the physician, the physician is supporting both the organization and the patient. But at the same time, when you reverse it, the organization is causing the burnout on the physician that is affecting the spouse. At the end of the day, to distill it all down in this matrix, when we support physician families and their spouses, we are not only supporting the physician in this burnout cycle, but the physician is able to give back better to the organization. So then we have less medical errors, we have less absenteeism, we have greater patient satisfaction, right? All of these things. And so when those stars are aligned, the organization's bottom line improves. So that I would say, listen up, organizations, because we know, we all know that that is their main goal, is the bottom line. Right. So when we support the spouse, we support the physician, which supports the organization, which improves their bottom line. When all those things are in line and the patient is getting served better, they have a better experience, they have shorter hospital stays, they are more pleased with their overall care. So then it's like a win-win-win-win on all fronts.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So just across the board, it's basically like this web where everything is interconnected, and then you have this ripple effect, right? How can spouses recognize this ripple effect when physician stress begins to impact family life? What can they look for? What can they recognize before it snowballs?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question because I think a lot of times we don't recognize it until not only is the snowball coming down the hill, but it has plowed us over.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And we're we're laying in this, we're laying in the snow and not making snow angels. Yeah. So honestly, it takes a lot of self-reflection to recognize how am I feeling? What is my stress level? How is whatever's happening? The fact that he hasn't made it home for dinner, and now you have to feed the kids and you have to get them off to soccer practice. And oh, by the way, when you drop this one off, you got to drop that one off at karate.

SPEAKER_00:

And you get a flat tire on your way, and who you're gonna call for help, right?

SPEAKER_01:

It's like right, 100%. And so I think it takes a lot of self-awareness and recognizing when your cup is overflowing and looking at what I can delegate. Can I get some help? Maybe it's from a neighbor, maybe it's a mother's helper from the teenager, you know, two doors down. Maybe if you have family close by that can help you, that's great. We didn't have that. We didn't have that. So a lot of it was on me, and that was overwhelming. Yeah. But also, I think our physical symptoms we need to be mindful of. Have you gone to have a well check? Have you had your mammogram if you're of an appropriate age or demographic that needs it early? Have you had your Pat smear? Have you done all these things that are not fun, but yet help you? Right, right. Um, are you doing something for yourself? Are you taking five minutes for yourself? Are you eating? Are you sleeping? Yes, 100%. Are you drinking enough water? Right. All of these things are small things that end up mounting into big things. So that little piece of snow that started off at the top of the hill that snowballed, we are able to manage these things better. What are we doing for stress management? Are we taking walks? Are we going to yoga? Are we doing Pilates? Do we run? Do we swim? What are those things? Meeting with friends, having, and this is completely unrelated to the study, but I saw on social media that it was an actual study, but not mine, that said that when women have connections with other people and they have an opportunity to vent, that their stress levels and their heart rate and blood pressure go down.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't doubt it. And even having an actual adult conversation a lot of times, because and and I want to talk about this for a minute, where you were saying, you know, pause. Pause for a minute, really recognize how you're feeling. Think about how you're taking care of yourself. Cause I think as physician spouses, we just have our head down. You know, I've got this, this, and this on my plate. I've got to get through this today. I don't have time for that walk. I don't have time to sit outside for 10 minutes with my cup of coffee, or that we've got to get through this. There's nobody else that I can call today. And in reality, if you don't take those minutes to reflect and figure out how you're feeling and fix it, you talked about that snowball just plowing you over later on. That I really it took me many years to actually do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

To allow myself to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And I think that it also circles back to what you said about we almost feel like we don't have the right to complain. Right. And all of our feelings are valid.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that is one of the biggest things that if you are questioning what you're feeling, stop and remind yourself that just because my spouse is a physician does not mean that my feelings aren't valid. Right. Right. And does not mean that the stress that I'm feeling is not valid because it certainly is.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And to find your people. Find your people that you, like you said, convent to to have that walk with that is so important. And for a long time I ignored it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It's something that really has become a practice. And we need to take the opportunity to infuse small habits into our day. Whether it's, you know, setting the alarm just five minutes early and opening up a journal and just writing three gratitudes for the day. Right. Just that. Like these habit stacking rituals, making sure that you have a clean water bottle, making sure that maybe you're meal prepping. Or if you have the ability, maybe you have someone do that for you. Right. Obviously, different stages of medical life allow for different things to be infused into our kind of our routines. But you know, they don't have to be fancy to be effective. So gratitude journaling is huge. You can do that for next to nothing, a pen and a piece of paper, or you can do it online on your computer or in the notes section of your phone. Yep. Super easy. Love that. Yes. And I think we would be remiss if I didn't include the physician in on this because truly, it's not just on the spouse. Although we are the one that they download to when they come home. And we kind of censor maybe what we share. We often feel like we're walking on eggshells, right? Because you know, your child got sent to the principal's office today. So your spouse comes home, your physician spouse comes home, and they're like, oh my gosh, I lost a patient. And we can only imagine how that feels. Right. But yet it kind of makes the other things right. The gravity of it. Yes. And so um, so we kind of have to censor what we share when we share it. Right. And almost like they're on a need to know, which I'm not a huge fan of.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because communication and connection are one of the biggest things that we as a couple can do. Five minutes of connecting time. Makes such a difference. Yes. But we don't always have that luxury.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, I agree. I agree. I want to circle back around where you were talking about supporting the spouse strengthens the entire healthcare system when we were talking about that in the ripple effect and your medlife matrix. So if you had five minutes with a hospital CEO, what's the one change you would tell them to make to better support physicians and their families?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, first I would ask them a question. I would ask them how important do they feel physician families are in the organization, in the overall healthcare system? I love that. Because I want to know what I'm dealing with. I want to know where they're coming from and basically how much work do I have to do. Yeah, right. Especially if they are 80% of the contributing factors to burnout, getting them to recognize that and getting them to even want to make changes. Not easy. Not easy. But we do have hospital systems that are coming around and have integrated physician well-being programs. So I would ask also, how does this relate to their family? And I would take the opportunity to explain to them how the spouses should be included. I agree. And, you know, I would share all the data. I'm not making this stuff up. You know, there are actual studies that that tell us that when we include the spouses and the families, and when we support physician well-being, their bottom line improves.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And we all want them to be focused and patient-centered. But that's unfortunately not the reality. Because right now it's, you know, for the physician, see more patients in less time for less money, right? So I would ask, what do you think you can do that you're not already doing? Right.

SPEAKER_00:

What's already implemented.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. What's implemented and where do these changes need to happen?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because the data suggests that the physician really can only be responsible for 20% of those. So the first thing I would do is make sure that they're well being programmed, their physician well. Being program not only includes the spouses, but that they are doing their best to support the physician in the 20% that they can handle. Right. But they need to be accountable.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, I think that's that's a great question. For our listeners, if they want to, I know there's various programs you have. If they want to work with you, if they want to find you, reach out to you, what's the best way for them to do that?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So my website is themedlifematrix.com. And I'm also on Instagram. That's I'm on Facebook, but I'm on Instagram mostly under the same handle at the Medlife Matrix. Those are the big places that you can find me and you can learn more about my services and what I offer.

SPEAKER_00:

Amazing. And I think you have a special gift for the listeners as well.

SPEAKER_01:

I sure do. I sure do. So just for the listeners here today, I have some bonuses for you. And yes, these bonuses include my burnout risk assessment quiz for physicians and their spouses. And there are two separate quizzes in here, one for the physician, one for the spouse. Oh, so it's interesting to see how it affects each of them. Yeah. And then you'll get your results and you'll learn, okay, well, where am I on this scale? And what can I do? You'll get practical, applicable tools that you can implement. After they take the quiz, they'll get those tools. Okay. Yep, absolutely. And then they'll also get the top 10 things medical families can do to prevent burnout, as well as my ebook that's called Wellness Beyond the White Coat: Burnout Breakthroughs for Physician Families. So these three goodies, and maybe a few extra surprise ones, are waiting for them at the Medlifematrix.com forward slash white coat. And I do have an upcoming course coming out called Mastering the Medlife Matrix. And the wait list for that is open at themedlifematrix.com forward slash Master Medlife. So we've got a lot of great things coming up. So I would love to have them check that out.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, no, thank you. And I'm definitely going to go on there and take that quiz and make sure my husband takes it and look at all your other goodies. So so kind of you. Thank you for giving the those away. To wrap up, I always end with the same two questions for every guest. So the first one would be what advice would you give to your younger self?

SPEAKER_01:

This is a great question, you know, because I think for all of us, hindsight is 2020. And a medical marriage is definitely not what I think myself or my husband thought it would be. Right. So the advice I would give my younger self is don't try to do it all at once. Because we know that medicine is a marathon for the physician, but it's also a marathon for the family. Right. And I would remind my younger self to protect her own identity and say no to more things that don't matter and yes to more things that do. Because remember, when we say yes to something, that means we're automatically saying no to something else because we only have so many hours in the day. Right. And burnout doesn't just creep into the physician's life, but it really seeps into the fabric of the marriage and the family. Yeah. Yeah. And I really wish I had learned earlier that taking care of myself wasn't selfish. It was really necessary, not only for me, but for my husband, our marriage, our family. And, you know, you can't be the anchor for someone else if you're sinking yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

I 100% agree. And I think that's great advice and something that I personally could have used in my younger years as well. So thank you. And then the last question is if your life was a reality TV show, what would the title be?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's that's a good one. I it's a fun one, right? It is fun. And, you know, I could go so many different directions with that. But if our medical marriage, our life were a reality show, I think it would probably be called Married to Medicine but missing the manual. Oh my gosh. Because we know nobody, nobody hands us a guidebook for surviving the call nights, the burnout, and really what a marriage in medicine is. But the good news is that I'm thankful for podcasts like yours and the work that you know I'm able to do, and so many others are now evolving in this field that we are really able to provide a spotlight on this important issue on how physician burnout and medicine really carries over into the medical marriage and that it affects the spouses and the families.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, I think it's a perfect title. I think most of our listeners will 100% relate to that. And, you know, I feel like it is definitely a journey. For sure. And we all have a story to tell, even though we've got similarities, obviously differences, and how not only do we have a story to tell, but how our story can really impact and help others. And so I I love that. And I think it's a perfect title. Thanks. Yes, yes, and thank you for all the work that you're doing and shedding light on this burnout that I think is such a huge part of this medical community that people need to be aware of. They need to know what this ripple effect is, what to look for, the tools that they need, and how it can not only impact the physician, but the physician spouse and the families as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And really being able to have the opportunity to sit down with these women and hear their stories. And I felt really privileged because they were being vulnerable with me. Our physician spouses are really the unsung heroes of the medical community. I would also be remiss to mention that uh in the limitations of this uh work that I did, I noted that uh female physicians with male spouses have unique needs. Dual physician households have unique needs. Members of the LGBTQ community in medicine have unique and complex needs that extended beyond the scope of my study. You know, just in case you get any any emails about, well, what about this and what about that? Yeah. Those demographics really have different complexities than a quote unquote traditional medical marriage. And it's it like if I have my way, I'll be able to talk to those subgroups soon and shed more light on their needs. So that's my goal.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I sure hope you do. Yeah, it's it's definitely needed. Definitely needed. Absolutely. Well, Dr. Lisa, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and heart with us today. And I know our listeners, especially the physician spouses, are walking away with new hope and practical tools for navigating this medical life. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Lisa's work, please check out the Medlife Matrix at themedlifematrix.com. And I'll link the show notes along with any of her resources, her free giveaways in there. And as always, thank you for joining me here on Behind the White Coat Real Talk for Physician spouses. If this episode resonated with you, share with another physician spouse who needs encouragement today. And remember, finding where you belong isn't just about the place you live, it's about the people you connect with. Thanks so much for being here, Dr. Lisa. Thanks so much for having me. You're doing great work, Amanda. Same to you. I appreciate you so much. And until next time, that's a wrap on this episode of Behind the White Coat. I hope today's conversation left you feeling more understood and supported. And if you enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with another physician spouse. Your support helps more of us to connect. Keep in mind this podcast is for you. So let's keep this conversation going. DM me on Instagram at Amanda Barron Realtor with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions, or even guest suggestions. I would really love to hear from you. Thanks for spending part of your day with me, and remember, you are never in this alone. See you next time.