#41| Inside Physician Burnout And A Family’s Road Back To Hope

We share Betsy Gall’s journey through profound loss, the hidden pressures driving physician burnout, and the practices and policies that can save lives. The conversation moves from stigma and licensing fears to daily gratitude, boundaries, and real reform.

• family move, early burnout signals, identity tied to work
• depression symptoms, sleep collapse, loss of interest
• fear of licensing questions and stigma around help
• the book’s themes and physician suicide statistics
• gratitude practice as a stabilizing lifeline
• structural fixes in training, policy, and culture
• boundaries, rest, and peer support for clinicians
• Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation resources and advocacy
• practical steps for grief, burnout, and getting help
• where to find Betsy online and at events

You can call the Suicide and Crisis Hotline, and it is confidential support 24 hours a day

If you want more information, you can connect with Betsy on Instagram for insights, updates, and reflections from her work. You can also grab her book, The Illusion of the Perfect Profession, on this website. 

I would love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or share the episode with others.

Connect with me on Instagram or email me at amanda@abtnhomes.com with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions, or even guest suggestions.

Transcript

Family Background And Move To NC

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode. My conversation with my guest today is tender, important, and full of hope. My guest, Betsy Gall, is someone who has walked through profound loss and somehow found the courage to turn her pain into purpose. Betsy's husband, Dr. Matthew Gall, was a brilliant oncologist, devoted dad, and the kind of person who filled every room with energy and laughter. In 2019, Matthew tragically took his own life, an unimaginable moment that changed everything. Since then, Betsy has written a powerful book called The Illusion of the Perfect Profession, sharing her family's story and helping others understand the deep toll that burnout and depression can take on physicians and their families. She is now speaking all over the country, using her voice to shine light on physician mental health and remind others that help and healing are possible. Betsy, thank you so much for being here today and joining us.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Hi, Amanda. Thanks so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Same. I'm honored to have you here. And before we go into your advocacy work and talking about your book, I would love for you to just share with us a little bit about you. Tell us a little bit about your family and your medical journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Well, my name's Betsy. Well, actually, no, it's Betsy Moody. I just got married. Yes. Congratulations. But um, Betsy Gall. And I was married to my husband, Matthew, for 20 years. He was an oncologist. We lived in Minnesota and had kind of a charmed life with three healthy children. Grady, who is now 23, Gavin is 21, and Sophia is 19. We raised our children in Minnesota. My husband was with a big private practice, a very prominent group in the Twin Cities. And in 2019, um, we decided to make a move to North Carolina. And as I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more, you know, things went south right when we got here. So it was very perplexing. I had never been exposed to depression of any sort before. And it's not fun. And it was not easy. I don't really have a medical journey other than the fact that I was a physician spouse for 20 years. And when I got married, I kind of thought my life was gonna be like easy street. You know, your mom always wants you to marry a doctor, you know, fireman or lawyer or something like that. And I felt really blessed to have met and fallen in love with Matthew, who was very caring and a compassionate physician. Being a doctor was probably the most important thing to him. It was his identity, and he prided himself on um patient care and advocating and helping the sick. So I got kind of a crash course in the medical world because I didn't, I don't come from a family of doctors, neither did Matthew. And so we kind of navigated that together. In 2019, we moved to North Carolina for a number of reasons. One being, you know, Matthew had accepted a different job with a smaller private practice. And my pushing us to move was just I thought our family needed to change. My my oldest had struggled with bullies at school, and I just thought, you know, a change of scenery and warmer weather, much nicer weather would be good. But it turned out to be quite a story.

Early Signs Of Burnout And System Pressures

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Well, thank you for sharing that with us because I think it's so important for listeners to hear the love, the laughter, but the real life behind these medical stories and relationships and hard conversations to have, but I also think important for them to hear this. And so when you talked about moving to North Carolina and things kind of going south, what changes were you starting to notice in Matthew or just some sort of signs that you were seeing, okay, something's going on here.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

So I'll back up a little bit before we made the decision to move. I'll never forget it. I was cooking dinner in my beautiful kitchen up in Minnesota, and Matt came home from work and he sat down on the sofa and he said, I love my patience, but I hate my job. And that just like wow, it just kind of stunned me because for me, I was thinking, okay, well, switch jobs. Not right, not for him though, you know, it was his whole identity and his career. And so I was thinking, switch practices. If you're not digging this practice anymore, let's let's move. But he was, it was more a culmination of all of the pressures that our docs are facing today, seeing more patients in a less amount of time, insurance companies, you know, keeping up with these EMR medical records and and constantly studying for board exams. I mean, people don't understand. Lack of sleep, stress, I mean, all of that. Yeah, it was just it was a lot. So I kind of kicked it into high gear, found a recruiter, and we ended up in North Carolina. So when we got to North Carolina, I mean, I thought it was great. I mean, I love the weather. We bought a total dump of a house in um in the nicest neighborhood in in our city. And I don't think I mentioned it, but I am a real estate agent. So, you know, that's my passion is designing and remodeling and fixing things up.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So you knew what you were doing.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yeah, and I was super excited about everything. Um, but Matthew quickly realized that the change had been for the worse and it was not a good fit for him. And he started saying things like, This is career suicide, and I feel like I made a fatal mistake. And I was like, fatal mistake? Like this is this is a job, and it takes about a year for people to get acclimated to any new job. I mean, we all know that change is hard.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Right.

Depression Unfolds And Daily Life Changes

SPEAKER_02 6:37

And, you know, here I was trying to get my kids situated in school, and Grady was a senior, so that wasn't an easy, you know, move for him. And so I was really concerned about my children and trying to, you know, make sure that they were, you know, meeting friends and getting involved in their sports. And we we knew not one person. I had four people that I was really just concentrating on making sure that they were happy. I mean, it literally was like a week. We moved August 5th, I think, or something like that. And by the, you know, in two within two weeks, he he was saying things repeatedly like this was career suicide. So luckily for us, I mean, we had kept our lake home in northern Minnesota, and I thought, well, we'll just we'll move back there and it'll be okay. And he can find he, I mean, he had even had job offers, you know, up by our lake place. We had um considered that before the move, and it's just it's a real small town and talk about gold. That was not my that was not, you know, my dream. But I was like, we'll just go back there. He just could not wrap his head around the fact that he had made this mistake. So he'd come home from work, he worked all the time, and he always had worked all the time, but he'd come home and he'd literally lay on the couch, and the fatigue was severe. And I would try to get him to go walk the dog with me. He couldn't do that. Matthew loved doing the lawn. We used to joke about like over the top lawn care. We had the most perfect lawn, uh-huh, a little bit of OCD going on, but he always prided himself on that. And he could not do the lawn. He loved to eat, he loved to eat meat, he loved to grill. Yeah, couldn't grill. And it was just very shocking. And I couldn't go around telling people, like, oh, hi, you know, we just moved here for, you know, my husband had joined, you know, this small private practice, and he's been hit with this depression. And even as I knew it, I didn't really know it. Because if you had met my husband, he was kind of like a bull in the china shop. He he anything that he put his mind to, he did. Getting into med school is very competitive and difficult, and he worked really hard. I mean, he just whatever he put his mind to, he accomplished. Yeah, he set a goal and achieved it, right? Yeah. Got straight A's in school, was captain of the football team, prom king, all that stuff. And so to see him so debilitated was really shocking. But I had a lot going on too, you know. I was like my kids, and so yeah, it was a really traumatic, chaotic, uncertain time.

Barriers To Care And Fear Of Licensing

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Sure. And so when you were seeing these changes happening, you know, his lack of interest in the things that he loved or his sleep changing or being exhausted. And and then also from your perspective, if someone is starting to see this in themselves or in their partner, where would you advise to even start? Like what can you do for yourself? And, you know, what can they do for their partner if they're starting to see these signs?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah. So the problem with mental health is that you kind of have to advocate for yourself. And he literally couldn't. So he was saying things like, I'm gonna lose my medical license, which I was like, this that is so strange. Why would you lose your medical license if you were just getting mental health care? But he said no. It's they asked these invasive questions on your state board exams, and and I just I could I was kind of bewildered by that, but he really needed a psychiatrist. We needed antidepressants, and he was very fearful for of going on them. And we didn't have a psychiatrist. I mean, that wasn't something I had ever looked into before. We did have a life coach up in Minnesota that had been very helpful to Matthew. He specialized in doctors, and uh Matthew was, I mean, he just had a really strong mind, right? I mean, yeah, he was super smart, and and so he was very reluctant to get help, but he stopped sleeping. And to be honest with you, looking back now, I can't believe that he went on for as long as he did with so little sleep. And it was scary because I knew he was taking care of patients and he was exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Sure, sure, taking care of everyone else but himself. Exactly. Yeah, that's that's tough.

The Book’s Message And Physician Suicide

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I do want to talk a little bit about your book, The Illusion of the Perfect Profession, which I think is such an amazing title and definitely kind of stops you in your tracks. And so I wanted to see from your perspective what that phrase means to you and what you hope readers will take away from it.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Well, the great thing about uh being an author, and it was very surprising for me, was everybody takes something different away from my book.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

But the illusion of the perfect profession kind of summed it up for me because when I was Matthew and I were in our late 20s when we got married, and I just thought being married to a doctor was gonna be, like I said, life on easy street. And I just had no idea the pressure that our doctors are facing, and it's only it's only getting worse. I had no idea that the suicide rate was as high as it is, and what kind of prompted well, a whole lot happened in order to have you know get me to where I got to the point of writing the book, but I was looking for so many answers. Once a suicide happens, you instantly become an investigator. And I came across a book by Dr. Michael Myers called Why Physicians Die by Suicide. And I ordered it and read it in a day and highlighted everything because it was our story. I just couldn't believe that there was a whole book dedicated to this tragic subject. And I couldn't believe that my husband then became one of those stats. I mean, it's it's just it's still, you know, we're six years later and it's still really shocking, and um, it's just really sad.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I imagine that writing it was not only obviously incredibly emotional, but also healing in that process. And I did read your book, and I loved every aspect of it, and it's beautifully written. And the thing that I think I've I've told you before is everything that you had been through, how you continued to have gratitude. And for me, that was just very profound when I was reading it and about your journals and how this book came about and your daily gratitudes. And it just spoke to me. And I just I needed to tell you that I loved the way it was written and I loved um just your gratitudes that you would share in your journal and in this book.

Gratitude As A Lifeline Through Grief

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Well, thank you, first of all, Amanda, for saying that. That means a lot to me. I I learned about gratitude from my mother, who uh you know has not had the easiest life and always somehow remains faithful and full of gratitude. So gratitude has a way of turning everything around because it's really hard to feel sorry for yourself when you just look around. And even after Matthew's suicide, I would go to these meetings with fellow widows of their when their husbands died by suicide. And I'll never forget sitting in the parking lot thinking to myself, I cannot believe that Betsy Gall is going into a suicide meeting. I mean, I I didn't know a friend of a friend that had died by suicide. Yeah, I had I I knew nobody, I knew nothing about it. And I would leave those meetings even, and I would be like, Well, at least I didn't find him. You know, at least I didn't see him. I mean, some people go through, I mean, I'll get choked up just thinking about it, just tragic, tragic trauma that is life-altering. And I um I feel like very blessed that there's always something to be grateful for. And when Matt was really sick, I just remember being grateful for laundry that I had something to do, that I had something to keep me busy, like laundry. And I tell my kids too, because I mean, there's a lot of evil in this world. And I think it's really hard to remain positive when you hear so many bad things going on. And if you can just find three things a day to be grateful for and just keep going back to that, your life will be better. It just will.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

I totally agree. And I think it changes your attitude, your mindset, your perspective. And so I just I needed to tell you that because that was something that I just absolutely loved about your book and the things that you are grateful for. Thank you. Um really spoke to me. So thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

You're welcome. Thank you for saying that.

Culture Of Perfection And Clinical Realities

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yes. Yes. So you do also talk a lot about the hidden pressures within medicine and the fear of seeking help, kind of like you know, what you had said, Matthew saying that he would he would lose his license and the culture of perfection and the emotional exhaustion. What would you say to a physician or spouse listening right now who feels these cracks forming?

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Yeah, the cracks in the system are there because the system is extremely broken. And I believe that you know, we need to go all the way back to med school and start changing the whole system. Our doctors are taught to show no weakness, right? That's a really big part of who they are, and they're supposed to have all the answers all the time.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

And right, and be resilient. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

And they're people, and you know, I I'll never forget. I used to, Matthew, like I mentioned, like to eat. And so when sometimes if he forgot like his lunch, he never had enough time to like sit down and have an hour break. I mean, that is just like I mean, at his practice, that was unheard of. So I always made sure he had a lunch, and I'll never forget like dropping his lunch off once, and you know going into the clinic and seeing all these people, you know, getting chemo. And I just thought he has to see this every day. Yeah, and try to help them and give them hope. And here I am, you know, selling houses and picking out paint color, which is important, but not like that. It's not life changing, not life changing, and you know, it just it hits you sometimes because you know, Matt went into medicine to help the sick, and they just get beat up as doctors, you know. They're they Matt loved to teach people about their cancer and like what was gonna happen in their bodies, and he took time with people, and now there's so much pressure. I mean, you're telling somebody that they have cancer, and you're supposed to want to do that in 15 minutes. So I think the toll that it takes on compassionate people, and listen, our docs aren't getting into this for the money. There is like no money in medicine, it's ridiculous. I think they all should be paid triple. We're headed into a doctor's shortage. That's a whole different subject.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

It is, it's terrible.

Boundaries, Call Schedules, And Thanks

SPEAKER_02 19:10

But yeah, it's it's really scary. It's scary for our whole country. But I'll never forget when my parents' best friend went to one of my mom and dad's best friends, John, went to go see Matthew, and he ended up having cancer and he died. And we went to John's funeral, and on the way there, Matt looked at me and he said, Do you think John's wife is Matthew?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

No.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

And I thought, Matt, he had cancer, and you can't save everybody. And I think he felt like he had to. And I think every patient death took a little bit of his heart. And they don't teach you that in med school. I mean, they don't they don't teach you the toll that it's gonna take. I mean, if they Did I mean why would anybody go into medicine? And by the way, my husband told our children not to go into medicine. And all of our physician friends tell their kids not to go into medicine. It's just way harder than they thought than they think.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yeah, a lot to carry, a lot to handle, and be able to somehow compartmentalize it so that you can still go on in life. You can still come home to your family. You can still hopefully enjoy parts of life. And so I agree with you that I think things need to change in the healthcare system, in the hospitals, the training programs, and even for the family support and that culture. But, you know, figuring out a way to protect that and protect the physician mental health and, you know, making those changes and how to go about making those changes.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah. And that's the tricky part. And I'm an ambassador for the Dr. Lauren Abreen Heroes Foundation, which is working very hard to change laws, and that's where it needs to start. But our doctors also need to have boundaries. Nobody can work 24-7, and it is a heavy load. They need breaks. And Matt, when we were in Minnesota, he, you know, he worked four four days. He had one day off in the middle of the week, but they're on call every sixth weekend, which people don't understand how, you know, I have never met a doctor that likes taking call. There needs to be more boundaries put in place, and they need they need breaks. I mean, the other thing is I remember, you know, people just want to be thanked. And after Matthew died, I was going through his desk and I found a whole file full of thank you cards, you know, that he saved. And I remember when, you know, it was Christmas time or something, if I was pregnant, he'd come home with like baby blankets and baskets and things that his patients made him. And I thought, oh my goodness, like I've never thought of giving my doctor a present. And cancer, you know, treatment and care is very invasive and and hard. And I think that he became really close with a lot of his patients. So it meant a lot to them. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's just important to remember to thank your doctor. And, you know, if they're running late, maybe give them a little bit of grace.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah, I agree. And to in these healthcare systems, to figure out a way that it is acceptable to talk to people if you are feeling a certain way, or for them to feel comfortable to be like, hey, I'm not feeling okay. And and here's why. Or today was a really heavy day with my patients. And I just need some some help. Yeah. I need somebody to talk to. And and I know that it is there, but I don't feel like it's as easily acceptable as uh it should be. And like you said, he didn't feel like he could tell anybody that he could say anything.

Normalizing Help And Training Reforms

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Right. I was just in Reno, Nevada giving a talk, and I was lucky enough to be at this like pre-meeting, and they were, you know, coming up with kind of ideas and some solutions. And one of them I thought was really good is that while in residency, there is mandatory mental health care that they have to go check in with somebody. And I thought, you know what, that's really, really good. I hope that this younger generation, there they have we have more knowledge now, right? I mean, my husband, you know, he was 49 when he died, but kind of old school in his mindset of macho and I I'm a guy and I can power through when in reality, you know, everybody needs a little bit of help every once in a while.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Sure, sure. No, 100%. And you did mention a little bit about being an ambassador for the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes Foundation. Do you want to mention a little bit about that and what the foundation does?

Lorna Breen Foundation And Policy Change

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Well, sure. I mean, the foundation is amazing. They have a great website and toolkits on there for everybody to go and look up and use. Like I said, they do a lot of work in Washington, D.C. with actually changing the laws so that they cannot ask a physician if they're seeking mental health care. I mean, that's really nobody's business. And it has nothing to do, you know, with how well that they can do their job. So I would encourage people to check it out. I support them financially. I think that Corey and Jennifer Feist, who lost, well, Jennifer's sister, Corey's sister-in-law to suicide. Uh, she was 49 years old as well. And um I just so grateful to people like them that have given up everything to help other, you know, physicians.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah. No, it's an amazing foundation. And um, I'm grateful for what you are doing and for what they are doing. And it's a powerful foundation and and definitely needed. Yes, for sure. So for those that are listening and they may be navigating some grief or burnout or they are just feeling very weary. What are few things that they could do today that you would recommend to begin finding their footing again?

Practical Steps For Burnout And Grief

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Well, I mean, you really have to take care of yourself. You know, I used to always kind of be like, oh, what is this self-love stuff? I mean, but you really have to show yourself some grace. It's really important not to judge other people because nobody knows what somebody else is walking through. And just show yourself compassion and grace. And I think, you know, the biggest gift that you can give your family is to continue to take care of yourself. You know, I really enjoy exercise, so I never stopped exercising and doing simple things like going to get your hair done or your nails done or something just to just to have that type of normalcy. Burnout, you know, you need to stop. And while it's not depression, it can certainly turn into depression. Right. So you've got to stop yourself and say, what is it that I can do to get back on track? And if that's taking a five-minute walk outside during your lunch break, meditating or doing whatever it is for you to just realize that this moment too shall pass. But if it starts to get severe, I mean, I really urge people to get help because you can get better. And Matthew could have gotten better, and it's you know, it makes you just sad because he was really brilliant, and the world lost a really great person with one bullet shot to the head, and my kids don't have a dad anymore. Um, and so it's just really important to recognize the signs and say, I need help. And asking for help is, you know, a big step, but it's the first step and just talking, just talking, finding somebody you can confide in.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah. Well, thank you for for sharing your story and your heart and your wisdom. And I know that this is gonna really help a lot of those listening. So I wanted to ask you if somebody is listening and they want to connect with you, they have questions, they want to read your book, they they want to come listen to you speak. What's the best way for them that they can actually get in touch with you?

Connecting With Betsy And Ongoing Hope

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Well, my book does have all of my Instagram handle and Facebook and all of that. And I do get a lot of messages from my readers, which I absolutely love. My email address is in there as well. But I think that that's probably the best way is just to follow along, you know, on Instagram. I do like to share my life in order to give other people hope because I I tell I say it all the time, but I had a beautiful life with Matthew, and I have a beautiful life now with my new husband and our five children. And life is really good. Um, these conversations are heavy, and it's just a sad story. I just I share it so that nobody else has to relive what we've had to go through. Um but I'm online and you can pretty much find me and I I announce like where I'm gonna be for speaking events and all that there.

Rapid-Fire Questions And Personal Moments

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Perfect. Thank you. And I will make sure to put links and everything in the show notes as well for those that want to connect or get your book. And I just I'm so grateful to you and your time here and sharing. And I do always like to end with two questions for all of my guests. And that first question is what advice would you give to your younger self?

SPEAKER_02 29:15

My advice would be to not stress out so much and know that everything's gonna be okay. I think we get so caught up in the minutia of our life, and you just gotta take it one day at a time, one step at a time, sometimes one breath at a time, but at the end of it, the day, it's all gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah. And I love that. And I feel like you are so refreshing, and I am going to implement my three gratitudes a day. And I think a lot of the readers can can take that with them too, and and make sure that they see the joy and the gratitude in every day.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Well, I'm glad that that would spur you on. Um, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yes, yes. And the second question is more just for fun. And it is if you're live or a reality TV show, what would the title be?

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Well, I know what yours was, is like the shit show. Um, I'm not gonna steal yours.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Um hey, we can share it.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Um, I guess mine would be like, where in the world is Betsy Gall right now?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I have Yes, you are everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

I am everywhere. I am we still do have our lake house up in northern Minnesota, so I'm there. My son, my oldest son lives there. Family is still in the Minneapolis Twin Cities area, and then my husband and I split our time between Charlotte and Greenville, South Carolina. Oh my goodness. Yeah, so it's you are a moving target. We are on the go. And listen, he's an Alabama fan, so I spend a lot of time in Tuscaloosa. I love it. We're gonna be in Atlanta for the SEC championships this weekend.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

And so fun.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

You just never know where Betsy Gall is gonna be. I don't even know where I'm gonna be, but it's a fun life.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

So yes, yes. Well, good luck to Alabama and the game.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Thank you. Thank you. We will see. Yeah, yeah.

Closing, Resources, And Community CTA

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Well, Betsy, thank you for um just sharing your heart, your wisdom, and your light with us today. You are reminding families everywhere that it's okay to talk about hard things and that love, hope, and healing can coexist even after heartbreak. And so, for all of the listeners, if this conversation stirred something in you, please don't stay silent. Check in on your spouse, your friend, your colleague. Ask them how they are doing, and then make sure you ask them again. And if you are struggling right now, please know that there is help available for you. You can call the Suicide and Crisis Hotline, and it is confidential support 24 hours a day. We will make sure that we link Betsy's book, her contact information, and all the organizations that she supports in the show notes. Betsy, thank you again for your time today, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Thank you, Amanda. It was so good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yes, you too. And I'm just honored to know you, and I hope we get a chance to meet in person.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Well, I'm sure I'll be in Tennessee sometime.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

I hope so. And I hope you call because I want to show you all around. And I would I would same. I would too. And for all of our listeners, thank you for joining us. And until next time, that's a wrap on this episode of Behind the White Coat. I hope today's conversation left you feeling more understood and supported. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with another physician spouse. Your support helps more of us to connect. Keep in mind this podcast is for you. So let's keep this conversation going. DM me on Instagram at Amanda Barron Realtor with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions, or even guest suggestions. I would really love to hear from you. Thanks for spending part of your day with me, and remember, you are never in this alone. See you next time.