#42| How A Simple Weekly Call Became A Lifeline For Physician Partners

Two journeys run side by side: a physician’s career and a partner’s quiet evolution. We explore the unseen weight physician families carry, how a simple weekly call became a global lifeline, and practical steps to move from surviving to mostly thriving.

• medlife backstory across training, fellowship, and practice
• strain of transition to attending with a young family
• hitting a low point and choosing to rebuild
• origins of The Flipside and why the name matters
• pandemic-era Connect Calls and global community growth
• what the weekly calls look like and who they serve
• hidden burdens partners carry and identity shifts
• privilege and struggle coexisting without canceling each other
• micro-connections as relationship glue
• advocacy, research, and integrating partner voices in medical education
• one practical action for overwhelmed partners today
• how to find Hayley and join the community
• listener offer for membership

TFSL Membership: Our guest, Hayley, has generously shared an exclusive discount for listeners. Use the code AMANDA to receive $50 CAD off the TFSL Membership, regularly priced at $149.99 CAD. This offer is valid until February 28, 2017, so be sure to take advantage of it before it expires. 

If you would like to connect with Hayley and learn more about her work, you can find her on Instagram. You can also visit The Flipside Life’s website or follow their Instagram page for more information, resources, and updates. 

If this episode sparked something for you, I would love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or pass it along to someone in your circle who needs to hear it. 

Connect with me on Instagram or email me at amanda@abtnhomes.com with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions, or even guest suggestions.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello to everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Behind the White Coat. I am honored to have my guest, Haley Harlock, join us today. And she is just an incredible physician spouse, founder of The Flip Side, and it's a platform that is dedicated to elevating real stories of partners and families who support the people we love in medicine. Haley is a passionate advocate for physician families and a voice for parts of this lifestyle that often go unseen. Her work creates a space for connection, validation, and community, the kind we all wish existed when we first entered this medical world. Haley, welcome. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

It's a pleasure to be here, Amanda.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I know. I'm so thrilled that we finally had the opportunity to connect. You know, we had gone back and forth on social media, and I love what you do. And so I just am honored that you agreed to be part of the podcast. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

I'm it's it's really a privilege to be here. Yeah. And also lovely to finally meet you. It's funny how you have these like internet friends, right? That you've never actually met in real life or sometimes not even like this.

Medlife Backstory And Early Years

SPEAKER_00 1:24

So yeah, it's great to be there. But it's an instant connection. And you know, my my husband has seen it grow over the years. And you know, at first it was kind of a funny thing where I'm like, no, they really are my friends. And uh, but now he gets it. But at first it was like, are they are they really? And I'm like, nope, we we have an instant connection. So absolutely, absolutely. It's like we're in the club, we need like a secret handshake or something. Exactly. So tell all of our listeners a little bit about your backstory, what your medlife journey has looked like, and where you guys currently are. Yeah. So oh my gosh, it's I feel like that journey is we gotta go way back.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yep, same. My husband John and I have been together for a very, very long time. We were together during undergrad, a brief hiatus when you started medical school and then, you know, all through medical school, residency, fellowship, and then transition to practice 13 years ago. And uh, we currently live um just about 40 minutes outside of Toronto in Canada. We have three teenagers. That sometimes doesn't seem possible, but we have right, and one who recently uh left for university this fall. So sort of navigating a new transition there. But um, yeah, so this medlife journey has been something that I've been a part of for a really, really long time. And I think the one thing that physician partners don't often realize what we're getting ourselves into. And I had a background. I'm a social worker by training. I worked in a large pediatric hospital here in Canada. And so I think while John was training, I think I had, I thought I had a window, and I did have a window into what life might be like for uh, you know, a med student, a resident, a fellow, and uh attending. Even with that window of you know, insight and an opportunity to be part of the healthcare system, I found out many years later that really I had no idea what was ahead in our journey. Right. Which is a blessing and a curse, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Where it's kind of like you kind of want to know what you're signing up for. And then hindsight's like, thank God, I didn't know what I was signing up for.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Absolutely. And I think that's the one thing for many in our community. There's there's not a handbook, right? It's not like you know, when you're when you're having your first baby and you know, you get the the book, what to expect when you're expecting. And historically, there really hasn't been anything for partners of physicians to be like, oh, okay, this is this is the guidebook, right? And kind of going in blind.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. You founded the flip side in 2019 to fill a huge gap that in resources for physician partners. And so what were you seeing around you and through your own experience that made you realize okay, this support system doesn't exist. I need to build it.

Transition To Practice And Strain

Hitting Bottom And Rebuilding

SPEAKER_01 4:03

The support system that I experienced during my partner's training and transition to practice, there was no support system. I remember going to you know different events with him when he was still in training and you know, meeting his attendees many times, but they never remembered my name or like knew I existed. And there was sort of that, again, that disconnect between life at home and life at work. And we went through training together. When John finished, he actually um his first day as an attending was the day that our youngest came into the world. So true story. Oh my goodness. I went into labor and I'm like texting him saying, Don't come home yet because you're finally making money. Like, I've got this, right? But all jokes aside, so when when he did transition to practice, it was 2012. And at the time we had a newborn, a five-year-old, and a three-year-old. My mom had been recently diagnosed with cancer. We we had a lot on our plate. And you know, in the transition to practice period, it is an extremely stressful time, despite it being the end goal for so long, right? For for so long, it's like, oh, I can't wait till we're done with training and we get to this place. But it's also there's a lot of stressors that come with that that you're not prepared for. We were not thriving, we were barely surviving. But I think neither one of us came up for air long enough to acknowledge it and to be like, you know, something's gotta give here. And we just kind of kept putting our heads down and, you know, co-parenting and getting the things done that needed to get done. And so this went on for a few more years. And then in 2017, we hit a low point and it was kind of like something's gotta give. And it like like this has got to change, or we're gonna have, you know, this is this is not working anymore. And so we had some really tough, hard, you know, conversations with each other about like what do we need to be doing differently to so that we can now be thriving instead of just barely hanging on and work together, right? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, and I think the the interesting part looking back at that low, low point that we were experiencing from the outside looking in, I'm quite confident that nobody, even our some of our closest friends, knew that we were struggling, right? Yeah. And so we did the work, and and a couple of years later, when we had come up on the other side and and we're we're actually thriving as people, as a couple, as a family. I had this epiphany one night, Amanda, and I was like, okay, we are not that special. Like we are not that special that we're others, yeah. Yeah, the only the only ones that have been that have experienced this. And that's when I was just like, okay. And I remember it was it was late. It was like I don't remember the day or the month, but it was late one night. Everybody was in bed, and I got this little notebook out, and I just started writing ideas, and I was like, we got to do better by our community. And so I just really organically went back to my social work roots and was like, okay, we got to make some change here. And so yeah, and that's where sort of the flipped side life was born. And initially I was designing a mobile app with a company to connect physician partners anywhere in the world, and that was a that was a very costly experience. And I was, you know, self-funding it. And then sometimes things just happen the way they're meant to be because I had done a few small events, and then we actually took a six-week sabbatical and were in New Zealand and Australia in the end of 2019, beginning of 2020. We got back home February 1st, 2020, and I decided that you know I'm gonna give myself a few weeks to just get our family back on track, get kids back in school, just get back to our real life. And then the pandemic hit.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah. And so that was something where that I was like, okay, this is something that our community physician families does need and yeah, deserves some support.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

I love that. And so for those listening that aren't familiar with the flip side life, kind of go a little bit deeper into that, what it is, what you do, and give them a little better understanding. And that way they know that it's available and there for them. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

So I feel like I should maybe backtrack a little bit and give a bit of an explanation of the name because the name kind of came to be I was having lunch with a friend who's actually the daughter of a physician, and I hadn't seen her in many, many years. We were former colleagues, and I was telling her about this app and I had this idea, and I said, you know, and I apparently in this conversation, this lunch that we were having, she told me that I said the flip side many, many times. And I didn't even realize I was saying that.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Uh-huh.

The Birth Of The Flip Side

SPEAKER_01 8:12

She's like, that has to be the name, the flip side life. And I was like, oh my gosh, I think you're right. And so the idea, it's a bit of a cheeky name and I love it. Like a bit of a play on words about the flip side of what our life as physician families looks like, what that means to us, but what it looks like from the outside world.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Yeah, through different lenses, right? And that's what I love about it.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah. So the flip side life, the app got tabled eventually because I realized, you know what, before an app is necessary or useful, the community has to be built. And the community was built really organically at the beginning of the pandemic. The first week, actually, the pandemic was declared. I was sitting at home like so many of us, worried, like, you know, there was so much uncertainty and worry, and we had no idea what, you know, what was ahead. And I just went on social media and I said, you know, to any physician partners, I'm gonna be on Zoom tonight at this time, and I'll be on Zoom. I did it twice the first week the pandemic was declared, an afternoon time. And I said, if anyone is just feeling like a little bit like helpless, hopeless, and you want to just come together and connect, here's the link. I'll be there. And I had no idea if anybody would show up, if it would just be me and sitting there and it wasn't. And every week, you know, more people joined. And we had people come from all over Canada, the United States, even as far as like New Zealand, the Philippines. So there was quite a reach. It was one of the most beautiful things at a really, really uncertain time was this connection of people who were essentially strangers, but had one thing in common. And that one thing in common is that they were part of a physician family. And it was just, it's such a beautiful thing to watch unfold that you know, that that one commonality can really, in in a short amount of time, create a really safe space and an opportunity for connection and for community. So those calls have gone on for many, many years now. They still exist. They Wednesday nights, 9 p.m. Eastern for an hour. But that's that's one aspect of what the flip side life offers. I also do a really limited quantity one-on-one work with physician partners. One of my favorite parts about working with our community is the advocacy piece. And again, that's just that really is I, you know, that that social worker in me. And that advocacy piece has turned into some really wonderful opportunities to participate in research, looking at the experience of physician partners. I've been part of a few projects over the last few years with a really great uh team at McMaster University. Some of our work will be published hopefully very, very soon. But that's another piece. And that's led to other things, lots of, you know, speaking in small groups at conferences and things like that. So it's sort of a wide breadth of what I do under the flip side life umbrella.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

But it's amazing, and it just goes to show not only how needed it is, but how long you have been doing this and how people are still showing up. They are still needing support, they are still needing the connections. And so with those calls, I definitely want to join. I haven't been on one, but I would love to join. What does the call look like for those people listening on on Wednesday night? So it's every single most Wednesdays.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Okay, there's an occasional Wednesday where I might or not do it, but there's a calendar on the website. So it's really a come as you are experience. And I've had people over the years ask me, like, do I need to turn my camera on? Can I be in my pajamas? Like, what? And I would say, I'm like, of course, we would love for you to have your camera on, but if you're more comfortable with your camera off and I can verify that you're, you know, a real person and part of our community, because we need to keep, you know, need to keep things safe for everybody. But you know, it's like some people have joined from bed, some people are full of you are yeah, it's very much come as you are. No, you don't need to brush your hair, you don't need to put your makeup on. It's really a come as you are experience. And it's just an hour to drop in somewhere where, again, safe space, confidential, the calls are not recorded. There's nothing, you know, there's no, I don't take notes, there's no attendance take it, like nothing like that. And you know, sometimes it's light mood, right? And and you know, people are just sharing what happened in their day, or maybe, you know, around the holidays, it's maybe what's on your your Christmas list, or you know, things like that. Or sometimes, you know, it's more serious in terms of and it all depends on, you know, what the needs of who comes on the call are.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yeah. Yeah. How many people would you say typically attend those? I know it varies.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah, it varies. Some weeks are very small, like sometimes there's a couple people, which that gives a different dynamic because I bet a little bit more intimate. It's it's a lot more intimate, right? And you can really do a deep dive. And that's almost like group coaching kind of. Yeah, yeah. Probably 20, 25 has been the max. I would say I think that, you know, that becomes big, right? Because you want to make sure in an hour that you have time for every people to come, yeah, to everyone to say what they want. And and I think in any sort of group dynamic, you always have, you know, some people who might want to say a little bit more, and some people who are actually really quite content to be part of the community, but also happy to just listen. And so, and that's the thing. There's no pressure to talk. There's no, you know, so it's it really is come as you are. I think that's the best way to describe what the call is all about.

What The Weekly Calls Look Like

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Well, I love how welcoming it is and to allow people to come as they are, to have a safe space to say what is maybe weighing on their mind, on their heart, in their families, and to also hear from others, knowing that this isn't just happening to me, but it's happening to people all over the world in these, you know, relationships.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Absolutely. And it's also been fun. It's fun, I love when I get a photo or like a text sent to me of people who have met, maybe met on a call and then they're, you know, they've met in real life in New York City or they're, you know, have become friends out. Like in the Yeah, in the real world, or when people start to, you know, if people if you know, people have children and that and you kind of you become really invested, right, in these stories and you know, and getting and getting these updates of of what people are up to. And yeah, so I I just think it's been a real privilege for me to to be part, like to play a really small part in getting to know others in our community. So right.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

And real connections, right? Real support. And so that's great. Now I know you speak about the unpredictability, isolation, and personal sacrifices physician families make. So from your work with spouses, what do you think are the biggest hidden challenges that partners face that most people never talk about?

Hidden Challenges Partners Carry

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah, that's a that's a great question, Matt. I think those are really those three that you you've you know mentioned are are really common experiences that I think if we're honest, we've all you know experienced at some point. I think one of the biggest hidden challenges is sort of this weight that we carry in silence, right? We're the behind the scenes, right? Where we absorb the emotional and logistical loads that our physicians take on so that they can keep going and that emotional, right? All of it, right? And we manage unpredictability and loneliness and this constant juggling identity shifts, right? I can speak from my own personal experience, but I and maybe you can too, but of that you know, that identity shift of like, who am I outside of being the partner of this physician, right? And medicine is so all-consuming all the time that if we're not intentional, right, about not letting it absorb us as a you know, as a person. Having an identity. Absolutely. And and I think there's also there's also another element for physicians who are in or who are in dual physician couples, right? There's this brain of having two really demanding careers. And I think that leaves very little space for either partner to step back. And often that can be a challenge if you have two partners who are both physicians, where then it's like, what's gonna give? Who's whose job's gonna give? And yeah, and there's there's a lot of navigating that that goes into it. And I think the challenges that are experienced, they're real, they're really real, and we know that. But again, from the outside looking in, it's almost invisible, right? And and I think that's something that that's part of. Yeah. And and I don't know about you, but I think you know, medicine is a very noble profession. And I think there's this element of of altruism that runs very deep in physicians. And also I would like to think as you know, physician partner runs deep in physician partners and physician families. And I think that there's this idea that because uh as physician families, we experience this level of privilege that any struggle that we might experience uh it should almost be negated because that there's that that privilege exists. And I think that in in my own experiences and and in the work that I do with physician partners, I think it's something that we can maybe work towards gently coming to terms with this idea that two things can coexist, right? We can have a lot of privilege in our life, but that doesn't mean that we don't have challenges or struggles that are deserving of our attention and uh you know, whatever that means that you know, to to help us through, you know, difficult times and holding space for ourselves and our families when when things are hard.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

No, I I 100% agree. Now, during the pandemic when the flip side life became a real lifeline for many, what shifted during that season and how did it change the way you think about connection, community, and mental well-being for physician families? And then not only then, but then also now.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

So I think the pandemic was a time, you know, in in history that you know that we're always gonna remember where it was one of these times where, especially in the very beginning, physicians and all healthcare workers were were publicly acknowledged and appreciated in a way that perhaps maybe hadn't been seen before. And behind the scenes at that same time, I think as partners, we were, you know, I sort of already alluded to this, like feeling quite helpless and isolated. And, you know, that feeling that we wanted to help and we wanted to do more, but we didn't quite know how we could do that. And then we were, there was so much uncertainty about, you know, our partners were going off to work and you know, what did that mean? And were they coming home? Would they be sick? Would they bring COVID home? And what would that look like? And I think, I think that any time that you're in, you know, in a space and feeling that uncertainty, that's super stressful. And then this was this was even more heightened because it was going on everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Yeah.

Community As Mental Health Support

SPEAKER_01 18:18

The Connect Call started during the pandemic. I think what that really did for me, it really reaffirmed what I've always believed about the power of connection and community. And it's like when we feel less alone, everything, whatever it is that we're you know, struggling with or you know, struggling to bear, it just becomes a little bit more manageable. And I think that the pandemic really highlighted that. And it highlighted how essential community, that that feeling of being part of something and connection is for our mental health and our well-being, not only for our physicians, but also for ourselves as well. And yeah, and so it definitely changed the way I think about support in terms of we don't need perfect solutions, right? We don't need perfection, we just need a safe place to land. Yeah, you know, to talk, to be seen, to just sort of be human. The connect calls were never meant to go on, right? It's just sort of okay, I want to do something, I'm gonna throw this out to the world. And it it was by far not perfect, right? And and just something so simple sometimes can make a real impact.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

But I think that's why it was so successful as well, because it wasn't perfect. It was honest and it was real, and uh again, it allowed people a safe place to be able to have a voice and to be able to listen. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for sharing that and creating it because it it clearly was needed. So for the partner listening right now who feels lonely, overwhelmed, or like their needs always come last, what is one thing that they could do today to feel more supported or more like themselves?

One Action For Overwhelmed Partners

SPEAKER_01 19:51

That's a great question, Matt. That's a really good question. We have another hour to you know to go into this. I know. I think the one thing I would say is please, please, please give your yourself permission to take up some space today and it and and to really acknowledge and and speak out loud what it like what it is that you need. And you know maybe that means reaching out to a friend and just to say it out loud like you know I'm I'm feeling resentful today or I'm feeling lonely today, whatever that is like name it. And you know, connection is an antidote to isolation and loneliness. And I would say to the partner listening that's feeling like that, you deserve support too, right? You deserve to take care of yourself. I would also say if you're someone who's out there and I know I felt like this and I had friends, I had lots of friends, but I didn't feel like I had anyone who understood what I was going through. And so if that's you and you don't feel like you have anyone to to talk to please come and reach out. Find me on social media. I'm easy to find and I would be so honored to help connect you and help you get connected because you know I really from the bottom of my heart believe this none of us are meant to do this alone and community and connection it's it's essential to thriving as a physician family. And I I think that would be it is like give yourself permission to to take up space today.

How To Connect With The Flip Side

SPEAKER_00 21:02

I agree and the way I would always say it to my kids is feel the feels absolutely sit in it for a moment and allow yourself to feel that and I love your generous and kind heart to you know put yourself out there for people to feel safe to come to you. And so if they did want to find you or connect with you, what's the best way that they can do that and also to find the flip side life.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

So on social media you can find me just at hayley.harlock on Instagram and then to find the flip side life it's underscore the flip side life one word. That's also on Instagram and the website is just theflipside.com so you can find all of the social connections there. My if you want to reach out by email you can find me there as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Perfect and I'll put all of that information links and everything in the show notes. Did you have anything additional that you wanted to offer for the listeners?

Membership Offer And Perks

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yes absolutely if if there's someone that is listening that is interested in joining Connect Calls, there's an annual membership to join. It's normally$1499 Canadian dollars but I will give you I will send you a code that you can put in the show notes for$50 off. So it would be$99 for the year and um be happy to extend that to your to your listeners.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Thank you. I appreciate that and I hope they all join me on Wednesday calls because I would love to join you and connect with others and just have a place to listen and chime in uh if I ever feel the need to to kind of share and and like I said feel the feels.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah absolutely and we and it's also some fun too we've done some over the years we've done some pretty fun if I had an experience I might not believe it but we've done some really fun holiday parties over the years where we've had like cooking classes we've had wine tasting that's fun. Yeah um there is not going to be an online party this year we I've sort of tried to go back and forth from in-person events and and online but we've we have we have have had a lot of fun too so it's not all serious that's the other thing that I've you know and and truly like the power of connection and the power of friendship is is so um it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah no I totally agree and thank you just for creating this and sharing it with everyone and also for being here I'm truly honored.

Growing Resources And Research

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah thank you and thank you for the opportunity always love connecting with other physician partners and and what you're doing is great. And I think it's so um exciting that there's there's finally resources out there. I mean you have a podcast Kendra and Katie have a podcast Lisa has a podcast coming out and I think it's like again sharing stories about you know what our experiences are like that's how we feel less alone right to hear that other what other people are going through and and these resources were like weren't so readily available. And and now there you know there's tons of social media accounts that are really tailored to you know experiences from the partner perspective in medicine and I think in the and research finally. So I think it's it's a really exciting time for our community that you know there's changes on the horizon and and there are you know which is something that I don't even know that five or six years ago I could have imagined that that we would get this place. So it is exciting it's growing yes absolutely and and there's you know there's there's a lot of optimism and a lot of and the reality is Amanda I think it's it's because we've never espouses historically been part of of a system that we are directly involved in right the system impacts us especially during training especially during the training years that we've not been acknowledged or included and supported and and the research that that our team has done at Mac has um looked at that looked at the experience of residents fellows and partners and so I'm hoping that you know we'll be able to um you know make some really positive change in in medical education to start including partners and the partner perspective early on right so if we make the change early on in training then hopefully one day you know we'll be having a conversation about how this is the norm in practice as well. So yeah like lots of exciting things on the horizon I do believe for our community.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

I agree and I think it's a great idea and um you are definitely leading the charge. So thank you. Thank you. I always end my interviews with guests with two um questions same question. So the first one is what advice would you offer your younger self?

Advice To A Younger Self

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Right okay that's a loaded question. Sit down right I feel like that would come in a few parts I think the first would be the importance of medicine proofing your most important relationships not just with your partner but with the relationship you have with yourself. You know there's never going to feel like enough time medicine is a beast and so I think it's about being making the choice to be very intentional with your time and and the moments that you do have with your partner that thinking quality over quantity that you know like that the opportunity for micro connections, you know, a quick text during the day, you know, something just to say I'm thinking of you, I appreciate you, those kinds of things can can really go a long way. I think I would definitely tell myself to ask for help sooner and not try to go at this alone. Yeah and and just the idea that as a partner your your health and your wellbeing matters and and that old adage that you can't pour from an empty cup is so true and it's cliche and we hear it all the time but but you do you have to put your fill your own cup and put your own oxygen mask on first. And and I think the last thing I would say to my my my younger self would be you know life in medicine it you know there's ebbs and flows and having the ability to stay flexible I think is a way to save yourself a lot of unnecessary hardship if you will and I think I I wish I would have understood that a long time ago. So I think the role as a physician spouse, I don't want to say it gets easier it it changes, right? Or maybe your perspective changes or you grow as you grow, you grow into sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

So yeah no I think that's great advice and the second question I ask is just more for fun lighthearted that if your life were a reality TV show, what would the title be?

A Reality Show Title

SPEAKER_01 27:04

I'm glad you're not asking me this 10 or 15 years ago because I think it would be such a different answer. Right. Some explicits in there probably probably unfortunately I think now it would probably be something like mostly thriving um mostly thriving my my flip side life or something something like that. But yeah you know you got to keep track of all of these and maybe one day you know maybe there'll be a reality show.

Closing Thoughts And Listener CTA

SPEAKER_00 27:27

I think that is a fabulous idea. And everybody always gives such great titles and I love the similarities yet differences. Right only because of experiences but where we're at in our journey and so I think that's a great title and I would definitely watch it. Wow I don't know that I would sign up for a reality show but you never know never say never. That's right. That's right. Well Haley thanks for all the work that you are doing to shift the narrative for physician partners it is needed and it really matters. So for listeners if this episode sparked something for you hit follow and pass it along to the person in your circle who needs it. Make sure to be kind to yourself because the season of life is hard and it asks a lot from us. So Haley thank you again for being here and just for sharing your experiences and your wisdom. It's my pleasure Manda thank you so much for having me and thank you for the work that you're doing on the podcast to help you know elevate our stories. Yeah no uh likewise and hopefully someday we will get to meet in person. I would love that. Same same so for everyone listening until next time that's a wrap on this episode of Behind the White Coat. I hope today's conversation left you feeling more understood and supported. And if you enjoyed this episode I would love for you to subscribe leave a review or share it with another physician spouse. Your support helps more of us to connect. Keep in mind this podcast is for you. So let's keep this conversation going. DM me on Instagram at Amanda Barron Realtor with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions or even guest suggestions. I would really love to hear from you. Thanks for spending part of your day with me and remember you are never in this alone. See you next time