#44| A Veteran Dad’s Guide To Surviving Training Years

We sit with Ian Wessels, a Navy veteran and work-from-home dad, to explore the unseen labor, identity shifts, and relocations that define life as the primary parent while a spouse trains in cardiothoracic surgery. The talk blends candor, humor, and practical tools for mindset, self care, and community.

• military medicine training timeline and family milestones
• invisible labor and the emotional load at home
• pressures facing female physicians in male-led specialties
• strategies for moves and setting a positive family tone
• pandemic solo parenting and building core memories
• self care without guilt and being explicitly acknowledged
• identity loss and making fatherhood your own
• finding community as a male spouse through interests
• vulnerability, communication, and stating what you need
• practical tips for routines, resilience, and confidence

If this episode made you feel seen or gave you a sense of relief, I would love for you to share it with another medical family or physician spouse who might need the same reminder. 

And if you have not already, please follow the show and consider leaving a review. Your support truly helps us reach and connect with more families navigating this journey. 

Connect with me on Instagram or email me at amanda@abtnhomes.com with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions, or even guest suggestions.

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Meet Ian

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode. So I'm gonna just dive right in today. What happens when the medical spouse or partner doesn't fit the stereotype? And when the person holding the family together is also a veteran, work from home dad, and the one holding everything together for yet another cross-country move. Today I am sitting down with Ann Wessels, a U.S. Navy veteran, a proud work from home dad, and the primary parent to two boys while his wife is in year 10 of cardiothoracic surgery training. Anne's story hits every corner of the medical partner experience: relocation, identity shifts, solo parenting, military culture, and the emotional load that comes with supporting a partner in medicine. This conversation is honest and deeply relatable. And it's one so many of us don't even realize that we need to hear. And welcome and thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

I am so excited to be here. And I say this time and time again on multiple episodes that I'm grateful for this podcast and for social media because it allows me to connect with so many amazing people, amazing physician partners that I would never have had the opportunity to connect with. And I just want to thank you for reaching out and for agreeing to be a guest on the podcast today.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for doing this podcast. I kind of came upon it listening to Spotify at the gym. It thankfully got into my algorithm, my routine in the afternoons before I pick my sons up from school. Because like most of your listeners, I do all of the drop-offs and school pickups is I go to the gym, even if I'm not working out, if it's just a 10, 20 minute stretch and I sit on the astro turf and just kind of zone out a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

Um, and I listen to your podcast among others in that time. Um, and it's really resonated with me. So I appreciate you doing this and having me on.

Military Medicine Path And Family Timeline

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Yeah, no, I'm I'm so grateful that you stumbled upon it as well. And I think today's episode is gonna really be a special one for multiple reasons for listeners. And so, Ian, tell us about your family, the medical journey that you guys have experienced, and just what that looked like from a military perspective.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

So we met, my wife and I met on uh her second or third month of her intern year, which is the first year after graduation. She is a military physician and the military does training a bit differently. Uh the recently graduated doctors, for the most part, do their residency at military institutions, military hospitals across the country. They don't start out in the specialty where they they might end up just it's it's kind of a numbers game and open positions. So when she finished her first year, she was offered the opportunity to do what's called going straight through, which was continue her training in her chosen field. After that, next year, uh, at the very end, our first son was born, and she had the opportunity to do two years of research, which allowed us to have a lot of great family time, being new parents, having a newborn. She then went back into her clinical training. And our second son was born towards the end of her second to last year. So we we had pretty much a newborn and a toddler going into what for the military was her chief year of residency, her final year of residency. After graduation, she did spend a year operationally with a Marine Corps unit, kind of living a military life closer to what I experienced in the military as she was out of training. Uh, after that, for fellowship, because the military really doesn't do a lot of fellowship training, advanced training. She has had the opportunity to train at two really great civilian institutions, getting a ton of really great exposure, experience, mentorship. Uh, but what that has meant for us, two moves, uh, one of them being across the country, which was big, but it has also meant being a military spouse in locations where there's not a lot of military. And that kind of informs and influences how I operate, whether it's finding community, um, in some cases, not finding community, that kind of knows where I'm coming from and and where we're coming from as a family. So now she is in her tenth year of training. It's a year of super fellowship uh in cardiac surgery, which uh is amazing and magical and life-changing. And we're all so proud of her. It's been a grind, and and uh both things can be true at once that she's out there doing magic. Um, but it's it's also hard. Um a lot to be grateful for in the past 10 years. We have two boys, they are eight and four. Yeah, so it's kind of like a frat house. Uh y'all are busy. We we are busy, but love, you know, obviously love my boys more than anything in the world. They're an absolute blessing. They're great kids. They've been standing tall through the moves, through mom's schedule, really through all of it.

The Emotional Load At Home And Work

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Man, amazing for both of you. It's it's a long journey, and kudos to you both because I know it's a lot of work and hasn't hasn't been easy. Thank you for sharing. So, living this medical journey from a perspective that we rarely hear as a male partner, a military spouse, and a work-from-home parent. What part of this experience surprised you most once your wife started training?

SPEAKER_03 6:15

The thing that surprised me the most would be the emotional load, the emotional labor. Uh, I mean, beyond the common invisible labor planning for drop-off and pickup, making sure, you know, we pull the jackets out of storage because it's going to be cold, planning the meals, planning the doctor's appointments, doing all the paperwork, that, you know, that kind of invisible labor, just the emotional load of being both parents. Um, and also the emotional load that my spouse has brought home. I mean, in training, and then as I imagine, you know, further in the career, they have a bad day at work, and there's a real implication for a real human being, you know, a bad medical outcome. And so bringing that work home, just on top of the stress of being a medical trainee in a very high pressure environment, I also am well aware and feel like I would like to acknowledge out loud the barriers that many women face in medicine. I think there's still a very strong undercurrent of call it sexism or misogyny or the patriarchy. I think a lot of female medicine trainees feel the need to be perfect or feel the need to be the best because there's this pressure to prove themselves. And that's a lot. And that is a dangerous cocktail combination with mom guilt or with surgeon guilt or with whatever you want to call it, because the pressure to also be a mom. You know, you see it on Instagram, on Facebook, in pop culture, whatever the case may be. It's the pressures on the mom to be the emotional rock, the pressures on the mom to have that, you know, the perfect outfits for the kids, the perfect Christmas card we're in the holiday season, you know, the perfect birthday party, the this, the that. I think there's just so much pressure on my wife and on the other female medical trainees out there. And all that stress comes home. And when you have a house with an eight-year-old and a four-year-old, it's gonna be messy and it's gonna be loud and it's gonna be chaotic. And being, as you kind of mentioned in your gracious introduction, kind of being the one that's that's managing all that, just that the emotional just of raising young kids in general.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Before anything else comes in with everything else piled on.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

It's a lot. And I think you touched base on it, where it's a full-time job managing the kids, managing the household. And then you also are working from home and then trying to figure out how to balance everything. So you're talking about the stresses, you know, that your wife has to deal with at work, and then especially her specialty being cardiothoracic surgery, which is a primarily male-dominant specialty. So she's got those additional stresses and factors, but then you've got your stresses. And so trying to be there to balance that and support one another is hard. I think, even speaking from my own experience, where I want to hear about what my husband's day was like or the stresses or the things that are happening at work. And sometimes I then think, oh gosh, well, I don't want to share my day because this doesn't compete or compare to the stresses that that he's been going through today, but they're valid and trying to figure out that balance. And so you doing it and doing it so gracefully, and then still also working from home, it's it's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

I like that you said the word valid, because that's something that I would communicate to all your listeners, but but especially the men out there is that, you know, doctors, it's magic. I mean, what they're doing, touching people's lives, it's it's amazing. But also raising little humans and taking care of the house, that's that's no joke. That's a lot of work, that's a lot of stress. The, you know, the emotional load, the things that weigh on me the hardest is is my parenting and and how I interact with my boys. And they surprise me. I mean, every day, even just this morning, dropping my son off at school, something was off, right? And you know, your kids, you know, and I was like, dude, what's up? What's wrong? Nothing, dad. Yeah, dude, what's up? Nothing, dad. Dude, not taking because hey, I I just missed you yesterday at school and I I don't want to leave you. And that you're you're just so caught off guard in the hustle and bustle and doing it by yourself every morning and every afternoon that you you don't want to miss that and you want to show up for your kids. And and that's that's work. That's that's work that you do as well. So I really appreciate that you said valid because what you do as the spouse, as the parent, that that is valid in in supporting. I can say very tongue-in-cheek. I mean, there's a time my wife came home so excited. So, hey, I did this case. Normally you don't do it till year four of training, and I'm only year three, and I'm so happy and I'm like, babe, that is great. There's dishes in the sink, there's laundry in the dryer, and the dog threw up under the table. You need to pick two, because I'm burnt out. And it's, you know, it's it's you can laugh about it, but but that's the reality because at home you're doing all of these tasks and you're doing the emotional labor as well.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

And you can't get away from it. That's the other thing, especially if you work from home. You are the primary parent, you are taking care of the home, you know, that is where you're at and trying to have space for yourself and get away from that is not always the easiest.

Making Space For Yourself As Primary Parent

SPEAKER_03 11:55

No, ma'am. And making that time for yourself, finding that time, you're not gonna find it, to be honest. Yeah, you have to make it. And something that I have prided myself on and that I share to all the new dads or the young men that I meet as my wife, mentors, their spouses, I just say, hey, you got to find ways to do it and you got to be creative. Find a gym that has a kids' club. Or when my son was younger, I would have him in the baby carrier backpack, just doing, doing squats, walking up and down the stairs, going for a light job. I've used my kids as weight as we are just, you know, especially during COVID and the pandemic. I have videos of me working out next to them. Yeah, you know, these core memories. I have my youngest and the little baby bouncer. And I'm, you know, I took a video, I'm doing my yoga routine, and I went back and watched it. And he's like, his little chubby arms are like they're watching, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:51

They're watching.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

And it's it's wild, but just kind of pride yourself on trying to include your kids in a healthy way. And it's not always easy, but you gotta take care of yourself and and find ways to address your own wants and needs.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

Right. It's necessary. It's necessary in order for you to fill everybody's cup.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

So that's that analogy is amazing because uh that's the one that I use. And you talk about you have to fill your own cup.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Because if you're if you're trying to fill everyone else's cup from an empty cup.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Yeah, 100%. I I totally agree. So before we started recording, you had mentioned about your recent move. And so I know you and your family have moved twice for medicine, and one of those being cross country. So, what did those relocations teach you? And what advice would you offer to our listeners?

Moves, Mindset, And Setting The Tone

SPEAKER_03 13:47

The best advice is really what I learned the most. It's it's really setting the tone. And you hear that maybe in an athletic sense or a corporate leadership sense, you know, lead by example, lead from the front. And what I mean in the family sense of setting the tone is that I have kind of learned that it's on me to make it an adventure. And it doesn't have to be in a in a corny way, it can be done honestly and genuinely. And I think that's a vital part of it. And for me, what that has looked like is being honest about how I feel. Like, hey, hey guys, I'm I'm sad about leaving. We used to live in Central Virginia. I'm sad about leaving Central Virginia. I loved it here. I've made some great friends. We have these places that we like to go. We have our playgrounds, our parks, our restaurants. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, we've been so happy here. And I'm very sad to go. I'm I'm sad to leave my friends, but we're going to a new place and it's going to be an adventure. And part of that is keeping my kids' tires pumped up, by which I mean showing them, hey, there's these museums here. Hey, there's these new activities you can try. Hey, there's this, hey, there's that. And being very proactive when you get to your new space. Not only in that very demonstrable way where you go to the new museum, your kid tries a new sport that maybe wasn't available where you used to live, but just my own attitude. So much flows from my attitude, how I'm demonstrating, regulating my own emotions, how I'm using my words to describe what I am feeling, how much that flows to my kids and flows to the family. I came to where we're living now first before the family. I met the moving truck, got the power turned on, all that.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

And I had, I had got gifts for each of my boys and had them just waiting for them when they got here. I'm not saying just go out and buy, buy, buy things, but it was it was stuff that they had wanted and had been talking about. It was Legos. They each got a big Lego set. But their first memory of our new place is coming in, seeing these massive Lego boxes in their new room and us building it together. It sets the tone that if we're having this experience, we're going to be okay. Dad's in it with us, mom's in it with us. We're here together and we're doing something that we like.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

I do love that. I think that's so important. I think creating these new memories together, these new adventures together. And I do feel what you said is so important that it's a mindset shift. I think it's perspective and being real about your emotions and your feelings and teaching your kids it's okay to feel this way. And then when they are learning about their new space and their new city, then they can share it, right? With others that maybe come and visit. And that was the biggest thing that I used to try to instill in my kids is we are sad to leave, but we will still keep that and then have these new things as well to experience. And I think sometimes, you know, depending on their age, it can be a little tricky, but I love that. And I feel like that just laid this positive foundation for you guys in your new city. So during your wife's residency and fellowship years, you carried a majority of the parenting, especially during the pandemic, which that season alone, I feel like, what did that show you about solo parenting while supporting a partner in training? I know everybody's experience during the pandemic was different. Some did not work, and others uh worked more. So I would love to just hear about your experience in that and with solo parenting during that training period.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

The pandemic kind of highlights for me that as hard as it has been to solo parent, and as hard as it has been to be a medical spouse, especially as a dad, as a husband, I would not be the dad that I am today, but for this lifestyle. I mean, just that baseline being the medical spouse, but also through the pandemic. And there's got to be room for gratitude for that, for that experience, for the things that it's given me, the things that it's given my family. It's not to say it wasn't hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. What it has taught me, and I I want to roll that into advice as well, or just a vibration I want to put out there to all the new dads or soon-to-be dads, really any any parent, but the dads especially, is to do as much as you can by yourself, even if your spouse is around. If to only prove it to yourself that you can do it. And I have so many core memories of things I've done by myself as a parent that I would have never imagined I would have done. I mean, going into fatherhood, I didn't have any close relations or friends or exposure to babies, young kids, what that looked like. I mean, I learned to change diapers in the hospital after my son was born. I mean, I had no, I was like flying blind.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Trial by fire, here you go.

Pandemic Solo Parenting And Core Memories

SPEAKER_03 19:14

But now, I mean, looking back, I can say, you know, with a bittersweet tear in my eye. I mean, I can remember holding each child at the pediatrician's office for flu shots. And, you know, both my kids just screaming, crying, neither one of them wanted a shot. And the the person, the nurse administering the shot looked at me. He's like, what can I do to help you? And I said, nothing. Give them the shot. Dad is here, we're gonna be fine. And I'm just holding my, you know, my babies, my boys, and they're getting their flu shots. I mean, bring that up to 25-year-old me. And I'm like, no way, dude. Like, no way.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

And just being there for my boys, being the model, especially as a man raising young boys, and just reminding myself, and and a reminder to everybody out there doing it, is that for as much as the work that you're doing by yourself, you also get so many of those moments that maybe your medical spouse misses. And that's hard. And that's another part of what I mentioned earlier of mom guilt of how much they miss. My oldest just started playing ice hockey, and I was uh, you know, I volunteer coach his team. I was on the ice when he scored his first goal. I mean, you know, special. What you know, what a core memory for me, for him. You know, I I got to coach, um, and I want to emphasize that I got to coach both boys, little league baseball teams last spring. I have this memory that I I want to share that I love. We flew, me and the boys, so I flew solo with my boys who were at the time maybe one in five or two and six on Christmas across country. Just me and the boys on a red eye flight without their mom. And we were walking in and I looked at them, and we're kind of getting into video games at the time, and my son was playing Donkey Kong. I was like, hey, dude, here's the deal. We got three levels to beat until we get to your grandparents' house. Level one is this airport, level two is the plane, and level three is the airport on the other side. And I was like, So, right now, dude, we are in Donkey Kong mode. We took 10 steps, and I was like, dude, there's no way. Somebody had left a bunch of bananas on a bench outside, which, if you play Donkey Kong, you gotta get the bananas. And we just looked at each other and laughed.

unknown 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

And that set the tone for that flight. It was an absolute disaster. The airport was crowded. My youngest son threw up all over me midair. So I'm like covered in baby vomit. It was like we when we were flying from San Diego to the East Coast. And when we landed, it was like nine degrees out, and our bags get lost with all our winter coats in them. It was like, of course, but because we had that like mentality of, hey, we're just playing this video game, and by the grace of God or whatever, there's just a bunch of banana, it's like it was a blast. And it's just this what you would you tell another man that, and they're like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Oh my gosh. But like all the things you can do, you know, you can do hard things. And so I love that advice of doing as much as you can on your own, even though I think our first instinct is to ask for help. Many times in our situation, we we we don't have the help, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:48

That's absolutely right.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

Yeah, yeah. I know that was a tough traveling adventure, but now that story, right? You guys will probably always remember that story.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

And I will never forget that for as long as I live. And that goes into, and I think we'll probably touch on this later on, but to the parents, make parenthood your own. And to the dads, make fatherhood your own. Um great advice. And what I mean by that is it has to reflect who you are. Don't be what you think you're supposed to be because of Instagram or because of a podcast or because of your dad or lack of dad or whatever your situation is. Just be honest to yourself, do the things that make sense to you that feel right to you. And I have little things that I do that I'm happy to share. I have all these other, you know, little stories, little moments with my boys that I think reflect who I am as a person. And I think raising kids, they're not gonna do what I tell them to do. They're gonna do who I am.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

And so making fatherhood my own, doing it my way to the men out there, do it your way. Be yeah be who you are, be the dad that you want to be, not the one you think you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Yeah. No, I think it's great advice. And the boys uh and your wife, they are lucky to have you.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Thank you. We're lucky to have each other. We're we're got enough teams, enough blessings for 10 lifetimes.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

That's right. That's right. So you mentioned you wish spouses knew certain things before training and medical training begins. What do you wish that you had been told or you knew at the start of this journey?

Self Care Without Guilt And Being Seen

SPEAKER_03 24:38

I would say learn to take care of yourself and don't feel guilty about it. There's no way that you're gonna be successful as a father, as a husband, as a parent, as a spouse, if you're burnt out all the time, if you're stressed all the time, if you're full of resentment. And that it's difficult. I mean, I I would, and I very recently encouraged a young man, say, hey man, figure out how to take care of yourself, whether that's therapy, whether that's the gym, whether that's art, whether that's whatever. But figure out what that looks like for you and find ways to not feel guilty about it. It's it's difficult financially, given kind of the salary implications when you have a spouse in medical training and maybe you're working and trying to take care of a kid, and depending on where you live, or multiple kids and student loans, whatever the case may be. But really, find those ways to take care of yourself. And there's another part of that I would encourage all of these medical couples is find ways for your partner to take care of you, recognizing that they're not gonna have a lot of time and a lot of energy. What that looks like for me, you know, I don't want to be thanked for caring for my own children. I don't want to be thanked for cooking a meal that I eat. I don't want to be thanked for caring for a house that I live in because I'm a grown-up and those are things that grown-ups do. But I know what's meaningful for me is a recognition out loud of what I do. And so, what does that sound like? You know, if my wife can look at her schedule and say, I'm gonna be gone for the next three days. You know, it's Sunday night. I'm not gonna be home until Wednesday night. That doesn't mean telling me, hey, thanks for holding everything down. It's just looking me in the eye and say, hey, you're gonna do every drop-off, you're gonna do every pickup, you're gonna do all the dishes, you're gonna do all the laundry, and you have a full-time job. And that's it. It's not thanks, it's not you're a rock star, it's not you're Superman. It's just saying it out loud because then it's it's out there that these are all the things that you're gonna do. And that's what your day is. And going back to what we had talked about earlier, that as hard as their day is, and as amazing as the things that they're doing, saving lives, changing lives, whatever that doctor's specialty is, you're doing the grind work and you're you're doing the grunt work too. And like you said, and like I like so much, both are just as valid. Those are both just as valid parts of the journey that you're on together.

SPEAKER_04 27:30

And I wanted to just touch on what you mentioned, which I think is really, really important. Um, so I'm so glad you said it. But to know what you need and to be able to express what it is that you need. And and then the same for your partner and your spouse, what you need. So if it is a thank you, if it is just acknowledging, if it is just having your plan for the week so that you can be organized, whatever that is, I feel like, you know, you can't read each other's minds. So you've got to speak up and just say, here's what I need, or you need to be able to ask, what do you need from me? Or what do you need to hear from me? And I think that those are very powerful words that seem so simple, but go a long way.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

And and I really just absolutely encourage, especially the young men out there, invest in the time up front to figure out what that might be because it things are gonna change. I mean, I just my own story, you know, being Navy guy living in San Diego, I'm surfing every day, I'm riding my bicycle to work every day because it never rains. I'm I belong to an outdoor gym because it's San Diego and you can be outside year-round. And overnight, after that first baby comes, all that goes away. And, you know, I wouldn't trade my boys for the world, but to the young men out there, the things that you're spending your time and your energy and your money on are going to change significantly. And it's worth up front having a realistic conversation really with yourself, or if you're seeking a therapist, or if there's a religious institution and there's a trusted member of your religious institution, or whoever it may be, having that conversation or having them help you have that conversation with yourself because it it pays off, and you're gonna have to figure it out with other obligations, taking care of your child, your children, your house, your spouse, all that. It doesn't leave a lot of time or money or space for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Well, and just kind of things looking different. So finding that different version of your San Diego, right? And how that is still going to give back to you and fill up your cup. And so it it just looks a little bit different, but you're still trying to find that joy to fill your cup.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

And that has been the most rewarding thing for me is that path of finding joy as a parent and as a dad. I mean, like I mentioned, being on the ice as my son scored his first goal, you know, being with them and not to be like typical caveman where it's all sports. Um, but just just kind of watching them develop in in different ways and kind of catching my sons in moments where they don't know I'm watching them and seeing them behave and seeing what they do and watching them grow and develop. It's better than any surfing or weightlifting or any other hobby that I've done. But it it takes work to get to that point where you can derive that joy from your children. Uh so I encourage, especially all the dads or dads to be out there to do that work and and put it in early. Nothing's gonna prepare you for being a dad. It doesn't matter. There nobody, no one's prepared. Nobody's ready but do a little bit of work ahead of time.

Identity, Vulnerability, And Making Fatherhood Yours

SPEAKER_04 30:54

Great advice. Great advice. So for new medical spouses or partners, especially dads, stepping into a non-traditional role, what's your best advice for finding identity, community, and confidence while navigating these training years?

SPEAKER_03 31:11

The identity, just saying that word, that um it hits me in the chest and it it sticks to the ribs. I know personally I got lost. I lost myself. I mean, in between. And you know, and your listeners know the diapers and the appointments and the runny noses. And you know, for years after COVID in the state of California, your kid sneezes and they're home for two weeks from school, and you're trying to work from home and figuring out groceries, and I lost myself and I lost my identity. And that's that's so hard. And that is I think for men especially, those are tools we weren't raised with. And that's not a knock on my parents, and that's not a knock on anybody's parents. That's just the society pop culture. I'm a military veteran coming from the military, you know, being vulnerable and asking for help uh carry the stigma of of weakness and and softness and is often assigned kind of the feminine or the female trait.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

That's showing your emotions.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Yeah, and that's just not true, and that's not healthy, and that's that'll eat you from the inside out, or you'll engage in self-destructive behaviors. So that is kind of a short answer, long. Um, but the the identity, it that hits very close to home for me. And and what I would say is uh my best advice, and this is aspirational again, because I have to tell myself this all the time. Number one is is make it your own. Make your fatherhood, make your relationship, your marriage, make it a reflection of who you are as a person and find ways to take pride in that. And I can tell you what that looks like for me. I have a noise that I make that my boys know is my noise. And to to date myself and to do a real deep cut for some of your listeners, if you grew up reading the boxcar children, they made the whipperwheel noise to each other. Uh, I have a noise that I make to my boys that we started out doing it at the house as a call and response. And then at the playground, I would do it and they would have to do it back to check in with me. And I would tell them, if you hear this, you do it right back. And now we do it, we practice it every day. And now it's how I call them when we're in a crowded area, when I pick them up from school, when I pick them up from the kids' club at the gym, whatever. I tell other dads that I meet about it. And they don't, they don't believe me or they laugh, and then I do it. And my kids pop up and they turn. If you ever they know, if you ever watch that show, Meerkat Manor, or uh for any of your listeners that had a Marine Corps drill instructor at some point in your life, you hear eyes, ears, it's this immediately. Yeah, my kids do it. And I'll have dads on the floor rolling, laughing. And I'll tell them, I say, Hey, this is my gift to you. This is how, and I even did it to a gentleman I met at a holiday party this past weekend. I say, This is my this is my holiday gift to you. Make it your own. Do it with your kids so that when you're just doing the day-to-day, you're having fun and you have something to laugh at and you have something to smile at. And it's something that it's in my kids' brains, is this is something dad did. This is this was ours. This was something we had. This was just us.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Yeah. And it's special. And and I I really I love that for you and and your kids. And talking about how um, you know, your wife mentors some younger staff that is in medicine, and then you kind of then taking upon yourself to reach out to their partners or spouses. I have found through the years trying to build this community and offer resources and offer support. Statistically, it just primarily is women. I do have some men that I have come in contact with, but I get it. They don't want to be the only man coming to our book club. Or so I have tried really hard to figure out a way to create those resources, create the support, whether it be local or virtually like this. And it hasn't been the easiest. And so, from your experience, do you find that that is the case as well for you? And finding the support and the resources or the other spouse involvement has been tricky from a male perspective?

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Community, yes, absolutely. And and first off, I mean, thank you for the work that you're doing. And one of the reasons I, you know, I reached out and and asked to be on this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

I'm so glad you did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

And I'm unlike so many of your awesome guests, I'm not an expert. I don't have any training in this, I don't have a degree. I'm just a guy grinding and out.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

But you have the experience and the story to share.

Finding Community As A Male Spouse

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Yes, ma'am. No, I'm, and I appreciate this opportunity. And to all your listeners, especially the men out there, the community is another one that really hits me in the chest because I've struggled to find community. Often, as a man, I've have felt whether this is true or it's the story that I tell myself, I have felt or have been made to feel less than the female spouses because I didn't carry a child in my body and I didn't go through childbirth. And I, for some reason, I'm not as valid of a medical spouse as others. And I've been, uh I've had an experience where I asked the question in a conference that was kind of geared towards professional moms. I was like, hey, what about professional dads? And I got I got laughed at.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

Which is such a shame. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

And it it stinks. Um, and there's there's been instances, military medicine, medicine in general, military in general being male dominated.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

When, you know, the stars aligned and all of my wife's classmates all kind of had a day off where none of them were on call. All of the spouses got together because it was kind of an opportunity for them to not have the kids for a morning. They went out for brunch, whatever. My wife got invited. I I didn't. So the, you know, the moms got a break, the dads had the kids, and it was my wife. And it's hard. And I have to acknowledge that for my wife, as much as I don't feel I'm I'm certainly not a doctor, and I'm not a mom, so I'm not part of either one of those groups. You know, my wife, as a female in military medicine, never feels fully part of the doctor group. But because she's not the primary parent and the spouse, she was never fully part of the mom group, which was super hard for both of us. And when that's the people that you're around all the time. So when it when it comes to community, kind of to dovetail off of make fatherhood your own, to everyone out there, but it especially as a man coming on here to speak to other men, make your community your own as well. So for you, and I know for me, that meant not constantly trying to almost force a friendship with people that it it just wasn't there. And maybe don't lead with that let's connect because we're medical spouses, or for the military families out there, hey, let's connect because we're military spouses.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Lead with a a common interest, or whether that's a recreational league, sports team, a chess club, a men's book group, a religious organization that has a men's group. And here's the hard one, and here's the uncomfortable one as a man, especially and as a man in situations or environments that are female dominated. Just put yourself out there. It's it's it's honestly so close to dating, you know, when you're in your 20s or wherever and you're trying to meet someone, be meet somebody at a playground, meet somebody, whether that's another dad. I mean, I even, as we moved here, there was one little boy that my youngest son kept talking about. I just shouted his mom in the parking lot one day. I was like, are you so-and-so's mom? And I stuck out my hand and I introduced myself, said, Hey, I'm Ian, I'm so-and-so's dad. My son talks about your son all the time. Would you want to just exchange phone numbers and we can get together? And that's really uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable doing that when I was trying to maybe meet a woman at a bar. It's incredibly uncomfortable doing it as a man talking to somebody at the playground, as a man, especially. I mean, there's, and I never know how to say this right, but I feel the need to say it because maybe there's other men out there going, it it's uncomfortable maybe talking to women in these spaces because maybe your wife thinks that that you're looking at other women. Maybe this lady's husband thinks you're trying to maybe flirt, or worse, with his wife. Those fears exist when your spouse is out of the house all the time. I mean, the divorce rate in the military is super high. There's a high divorce rate, very unfortunately, for female surgeons and for female. I mean, the amount of conferences that my wife has gone to where it's the keynote speaker starts with, I'm a single mom. And so that fear exists. So to other men out there and to medical spouses out there, a man like me, when I'm sticking my hand out to say, hi, I'm Ian, our kids play together. Do you want to try and be friends? There's no ill intentions out there. And it's hard to get over that. Um, it's hard to get over those nerves. So my advice is do that uncomfortable thing and introduce yourself at the playground, introduce yourself at school pickup when you are sitting in the stands or sitting in the chairs at sports or ballet or just whatever. And that's that's really difficult to do. And once you do that, here's the even harder part is be vulnerable. Be that, you know, show that emotional softness that maybe is not expected or even wanted of us as men. And that's incredibly difficult. But the friendships I've made by doing that are so valuable because we've bonded. And practically, you're like, dude, I don't have time to meet you for 10 beers, you know, 10 Friday nights in a row. Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Before you tell me your wife's name. It's like, I'm gonna tell you who I am up front because I don't, you know, I want to make a friend. I want my kid to have a friend to play with. We want families to invite over for the holiday cookie party. So you have to do that really uncomfortable thing, which is it's hard, but take the leap of faith, put yourself out there. Again, it's it is so difficult to find that community, to find those friends. And you did a great episode about finding friends as an adult.

SPEAKER_04 42:11

Yeah, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Which, especially as a as a military spouse. I mean, you remember those those commercials, those MM commercials where they meet Santa and they're both like, they do exist. It's it's like that, like six months into a friendship where my new friend finally meets my wife. It's like, she does exist. And it's like, right, yeah, dude, she just works 28 days straight.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

All the time. Well, I love that. And and I do think you are spot on where you've got to get comfortable with the uncomfortable to move that needle forward. And so thank you for sharing that. And I hope that through these conversations and I hope through the open communication that I do feel is happening amongst the medical family and physician spouse family, that there will be more resources and more community and more opportunities, especially for the military and the male side of things, because I know that's got to be hard. So thank you for sharing that. And if anybody listening wants to connect, you know, that your story has really resonated with them or they feel the exact same way you are feeling if they've got questions or want to look to you for support. What would be the best way for them to get in contact with you?

SPEAKER_03 43:29

I would say uh to everyone listening to this awesome podcast, reach out to Amanda. Uh, you can find the contact information on uh Spotify or the other uh podcast sites. I don't do social media. Again, I'm I'm not an expert, so I'm not hosting my own podcast or taking on clients or anything like that, like some of these other um wonderful spouses have been able to do. Um but reach out to Amanda and and she'll put us in touch, and um especially to the young men out there. This is something I tell all the gentlemen that I come across that I try to mentor. I'm not on social media. I don't know you, and I don't know your family. Um, so your secrets are safe with me for an open, honest conversation that won't get passed along if you want to vent, if you want to do the soft, vulnerable thing like I've mentioned, and cry or laugh or whatever. I'm right there with you. So reach out to Amanda and she'll put us in touch and um connect you guys. Connect. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 44:28

Well, and thank you for just sharing your story and your journey, your experiences and the way that you show up for your family. Uh it just offers a kind of hope that I think every spouse in medicine could use. So I really appreciate you and you reaching out and your time.

Parting Advice, Gratitude, And Closing

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Thank you so much for having me. This has been wonderful and cathartic. It helps me to say these things that I aspire to out loud sometimes, just to remind myself. And again, thank you for hosting this podcast. I know I'm I'm pretty long-winded, which I think is a product of being work from home and kind of isolated. But having a connection with fellow spouses is so meaningful. Uh at my wife's fellowship graduation, the wife of her mentor came up to me and it makes me tear up thinking about it. Um, so I'll try to hold it together. She put her hand on my shoulder and looked me in the eye and just said, Congratulations. Because she knew. Yeah. She knew. And that's all that's all, you know, there's so much hoopla about all the great things. These doctors have heard, you get tired of hearing it. You're like, oh my gosh, get over yourselves already, which is, you know, a symptom of my needs. Uh, you know what I mean? Yeah. But having another spouse recognize what you're doing and just having an honest conversation, or even just being able to listen to people talk about it has been so great for me. So I appreciate the work that you're doing. I appreciate all your guests and everyone being so honest and open with their stories.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

Same. I appreciate you just as much. So I always end with my two final questions for every guest. The first one is what advice would you offer your younger self?

SPEAKER_03 46:13

The advice that I would offer my younger self is to figure out who you are and be that person for yourself, for your spouse, and for your kids. Don't feel guilty. Don't feel like you need to fit into an Instagram box. Figure out who you are. And the second piece of advice uh I want to give too. I know only you only ask for one. This is this is for my 29-year-old self, uh, which I won't tell you how long ago that was. Um and all the other younger men listening out there. However, you feel in any moment is okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

However, you feel is okay. It you don't just be okay with that. However, you feel it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Great advice. Great advice. And then the second one is just always for fun. That if your life were a reality TV show, what would the title be?

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Uh Dad to the Bone and uh Channing, Channing Tatum will play me.

SPEAKER_04 47:17

Oh, I hey, you are the first guest that actually had the actor who is gonna play you. I think I'm going to now extend that for future episodes. That is awesome. I I love that. And uh we'll have to reach out to him, see, see what he of the idea.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

Uh if we could get like the the three screens and and go over lines, that would be that would be incredible.

SPEAKER_04 47:44

That is great. Well, again, Ian, thank you for your time and your story. And if this episode made you feel seen or gave you a little breath of relief, I'd love for you to share it with another medical family who might need the same reminder. And if you haven't yet, make sure to follow the show so you never miss these conversations. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, that's a wrap on this episode of Behind the White Coat. I hope today's conversation left you feeling more understood and supported. If you enjoyed this episode, I would love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with another physician spouse. Your support helps more of us to connect. Keep in mind this podcast is for you. So let's keep this conversation going. DM me on Instagram at Amanda Barron Realtor with your thoughts, topic ideas, questions, or even guest suggestions. I would really love to hear from you. Thanks for spending part of your day with me, and remember, you are never in this alone. See you next time.