GAEL UnscriptED
GAEL UnscriptED, the podcast that goes beyond the headlines and handbooks to bring you unfiltered insights from Georgia’s top educational leaders, innovators, and changemakers. Hosted by Ben Wiggins, Executive Director of GAEL, this show dives deep into the challenges, opportunities, and unexpected twists that shape education today.
From leadership strategies to policy discussions—and everything in between—GAEL UnscriptED is your go-to source for candid conversations that make an impact. No scripts. No fluff. Just real talk from those leading the way in Georgia’s schools.
GAEL UnscriptED
From Classroom to Doctoral Dissertation: Education Leaders Share Their UGA MFE COE Experience
Ever wondered what it really takes to pursue a doctoral degree while leading a school or district? Three dynamic educational leaders from across Georgia pull back the curtain on their journeys through UGA Mary Frances Early College of Education's Educational Leadership doctoral program in this candid conversation filled with practical wisdom and heartfelt encouragement.
Dr. John Paul Hearn (Superintendent, Jenkins County), Amanda Cavin (Principal, Peachtree City Elementary), and Dr. Markita Spikes (Interim Executive Director, Gwinnett County Public Schools) represent diverse educational contexts—from rural to suburban to the state's largest district. Yet their shared experiences reveal universal truths about leadership growth and professional development that transcend district boundaries.
The conversation tackles head-on the concerns that keep many educators from pursuing advanced degrees: balancing demanding careers with rigorous academic work, family responsibilities, and lengthy commutes. As Dr. Hearn notes while reflecting on his experience, "It's the best thing I ever did for me as a professional." Dr. Spikes shares how her eighth-grade son provided critical motivation during a challenging moment: "Mom, there is no quit in this family."
What emerges is a compelling portrait of how UGA's program transforms educational leaders through practical, applicable research directly connected to their daily work. The cohort model creates powerful professional networks that continue years after graduation, with graduates regularly sharing resources, answering questions, and supporting each other through career transitions.
For educators contemplating their next professional step, this conversation offers both inspiration and practical guidance. As all three leaders emphasize their passion for public education and the transformative impact of doctoral studies, they leave listeners with one clear message: "Don't be timid about applying. Just hit submit."
Subscribe to GAEL UnscriptED for more conversations that elevate education leadership and drive meaningful impact across Georgia's schools and communities.
Welcome to Gale Unscripted, where leadership meets learning and real conversations drive real impact. I'm Ben Wiggins, executive Director of Gale. Join us as we go beyond the headlines with Georgia's top education leaders. Let's elevate the conversation. Welcome, gale members, to another exciting podcast of Gale Unscripted. We're here today on the campus of the University of Georgia, which also is the home of the Gale organization, and we're so appreciative of our partnership with the University of Georgia. We're housed right here at Rivers Crossing in beautiful Athens, georgia, and today we're here to talk about the University of Georgia's Educational Leadership Program and we've got three phenomenal leaders here with us today that have all completed their doctoral studies at UGA and they're here to share some of their experiences with all of our Gale members. So we're going to start with JP and we're all going to introduce ourselves and tell us a little bit about who we are, our position that we currently hold and what district we work in.
Speaker 2:My name is John Paul Hearn Ekins County School System, which is in Mellon Georgia. I'm finishing up my second year as the superintendent. I've been in education for 21 years and I graduated two years ago with my doctorate Awesome.
Speaker 4:I'm Amanda Cavan, the principal of Peachtree City Elementary with Fayette County Schools. I just graduated last month from the University of Georgia with my doctorate in educational leadership. I just completed my 21st year in education and the second year at Peachtree City Elementary and very excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 3:Thank you. My name is Marquita Spikes and I currently serve as the interim executive director in Gwinnett County Public Schools in the Department of School Operations and Support, and I just finished my 20th year in education. I guess that makes me the baby of the group Maybe. I am happy to be here and happy to share. I finished up my doctoral degree a year ago, May 2024.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So I think we're one month out, one year out and two years out, so that is phenomenal. Talk to our Gale members. There's a lot of them sitting there listening to this podcast or watching and they're contemplating the possibility of applying to get their doctorate degree, but they're trying to decide whether or not to do it and they're trying to decide where should they do it. You all selected the University of Georgia, so why don't we just start off with why you selected UGA to start that program?
Speaker 3:why you selected UGA to start that program. So I chose UGA because what drew me in was the opportunity to embed my daily work into actually writing my dissertation, so that I was working literally both on my doctorate and my job at the very same time, which I believe helped to not only enrich me but also to enrich my district.
Speaker 2:And I've always been a Georgia Bulldog since I was born and I was a student at Georgia Southern University for my undergraduate degree and my master's in education specialist degree. But I decided that, you know, university of Georgia was where I wanted to get a degree from and that's why I chose for my doctorate and I've told people that for me, professionally and personally, really was to go through this program. The things that it taught me is valuable beyond any dollar amount.
Speaker 4:Awesome.
Speaker 4:I got my master's at the University of Georgia in special education and I'll never forget that, when I completed that program that I remember my principal saying to me I've noticed a change in you as a teacher practitioner and just really see you as a researcher, just the way you go about you know, learning about what your students know and understand, and that really stood out to me.
Speaker 4:It just had become kind of who I was, you know, through that program and then knew that I knew eventually I would want to return, you know, to get another degree, but you know life happens and took a little while and so then I became a principal and knew that I wanted to obtain it at the University of Georgia, remembering, you know, that my principal, whom I really admired, saw a change in me as a result of you know what I had learned through the University of Georgia and then had a professor through my leader certification program that had then, you know, become part of the faculty at University of Georgia, dr Berry, and just through that leader certification program she had really impacted me through the coursework and helped me just really broaden my understanding of how we serve kids and being culturally responsive and just through that equity-based leadership lens, and I wanted more of that and so just received the applied over University of Georgia and so glad I did every day.
Speaker 1:Well, awesome. You know, I know a lot of people. They graduate college and begin their career in education, and sometimes they'll get their master's after they graduate. But then life happens like you mentioned, and for some people it may be 10 years or so since they've taken a course in college. So talk to our listeners about how that transition was for you, because they're sitting at home listening to this podcast and they're thinking you don't understand, I'm busy, I have a full-time job, I'm running a school or I'm running at a department or a division or a school district. Talk to our listeners a little bit about how you experience going through that with full-time jobs, whatever responsibilities you had at home, and how you were able to be successful with that.
Speaker 2:I'll start. When I started the program, I was the federal programs director in our school system. I was assistant varsity softball coach. I had a daughter who was currently at UGA. I had my other daughter was in high school at the time, so you know family life couldn't be any busier, and at that time it was still during the week.
Speaker 2:I had a 185 mile drive one way and I managed it and, like I said earlier, it's the best thing I ever did for me as a professional. It taught me things to kind of get off a little bit. You know, everything that you do in this course is designed for you and your current job. I can say that every assignment that I did for every professor that I had it was something that I could walk back in the door of my school system and use the next day. So to me that's what makes it unique, that's what makes it valuable and it is work. But that's what makes it work Because, after all, we're here to grow every day and that's what this program did for me.
Speaker 4:Well, I first applied to University of Georgia the year before I was named principal and was accepted into the program, and then, when I became a principal, ok, well, I need to pump the brakes.
Speaker 2:There's no way I can do this.
Speaker 4:I had the same feeling that many people have that they're. You know how in the world will I juggle? You know, being a doctoral student and also being a principal, and so I deferred. Then I deferred again because then COVID hit my first year, and then I thought, okay, well, this is a good time, now Things have settled and so this is a perfect time. I'll reapply. And so I did. And then, a year into the program, my family and I, we moved to another county, became a principal at another school, and so just, no matter what you just can't control. You know there are always things that are happening. But what I learned through all of that is that one you know circumstances will change and so we can't predict the future. We know that.
Speaker 4:You know a lot can happen within a three-year period, and a lot can happen within a three-year period.
Speaker 4:But what I know to be true is that the people in my cohort were a tremendous source of strength throughout that transition, and so for me it was helpful. We had accountability partners and you know I wasn't the only one that was experiencing change in my personal and professional life, but we had people who lost family members, who also had career changes and moved and that kind of thing, and we were all there for each other and understood that we needed to help fill the gaps, you know where we could, for our colleagues in the program, and that's what helped, you know, each of us successfully complete the program within the three-year period and, of course, you know our professors were extremely supportive. But also just the way that the program is laid out, as you shared is meant for the working professional, which is also very helpful, and so I wish that I wouldn't have deferred those two years, but then I wouldn't have had the experiences that I did the last three. So I would just say just go for it. Click the button and submit.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 3:For me. I thought I would try to get my doctorate right after going back for my master's, but life happened, I had a newborn and so realized that that was probably not the best thing to do, so ended up going back seven years after getting my specialist. My eldest was on his way to college. My youngest was in eighth grade. They're both athletes, so we spent a lot of time at a ball field.
Speaker 3:It was another colleague within Gwinnett that actually encouraged me to get mine. She also was a mom of two boys who was very active, who said you can do this. And so that little bit of courage gave me encouragement, gave me the courage to actually apply, and I actually applied the fall, the spring after COVID happened. So I started the fall 2021, which was a year after COVID, and wasn't quite sure how I was going to get through it. But to Amanda's point, it's your cohort members that push you, because you guys are not necessarily experiencing the exact same things, but you're going through a similar journey and you're there to help, prop each other up, give a shoulder to cry on when needed and also air frustrations, because there were many times when I thought I would quit, especially after the first class, but it was my eighth grader who walked to the deck and said Mom, there is no quit in this family.
Speaker 3:And I knew at that point I was in it for the long haul.
Speaker 1:Awesome, what happened in that first class. I mean, we've got to know who was this professor and what happened.
Speaker 3:That professor shall remain unnamed but, it was a critical point of deciding our topic, that was the breaking point what on earth will this topic be about?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's a great segue. You know how did each of you decide what your dissertation topic would be? Did you know that before you even filled out your application to gain admission in the University of Georgia, had you already been thinking of that? Or did your professors help you come up with that decision? Who would like to share about that, your dissertation topic?
Speaker 2:I'll go first. My dissertation topic was on parent engagement in our school system and you know, going into this I knew that there was a dissertation involved and I really wanted to focus on that because I that was in my school system and it was a problem and you know, Our professors just kind of guided us. One of the first classes in the cohort that I was in was actually on parent engagement, so that just kind of fell right in where it needed to. But you know, they kind of helped me refine my topic. But for me that's how I picked. I went in knowing that I wanted to study this because it was a problem where I was working.
Speaker 3:For me. Going into it, I thought I knew my topic and ultimately I landed back on that topic. But it was the process of how do you make that topic an action research experience, and I think that was the mind shift that had to happen to get back to the place of yes, this is exactly what I want to do, to the place of yes, this is exactly what I want to do, but it needs to be something that's really going to benefit our district and that can pull the perspectives of those who are going to be most impacted into the conversation awesome.
Speaker 4:I'm here to represent those who don't know we're impactful for your students and community, but just kind of overwhelmed by the thought of narrowing it down just to one problem of practice to address. And so I went in with several ideas and, yes, had a thought partner, one of my professors, dr Dorsen, who helped me kind of narrow down because I was still very high level and so that was very helpful. And then a year later, as I shared, then moved to another county and so then changed or revised my dissertation topic and so ended up focusing on the use of high leverage literacy practices to close achievement gaps and really just identifying a problem of practice within our school community and knowing that you know we were not appropriately serving all students.
Speaker 4:And that is what keeps me up at night and so knowing that you know that call to action that we couldn't ignore and that we needed to do that. And so you know I'd say for anyone not knowing going in that you've got a cohort of people who can be your thought partners and professors who can be your thought partners to help you narrow it down and really, you know, kind of help, guide you towards a path that where you can be successful for your community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. You know, each of you have talked a little bit about your cohort and how you learn from each other and how valuable you think that is. I mean, we've got small rural districts, We've got two metro districts, one medium size one, the largest school district in Georgia. How can we learn from each other? Your school districts are so different. How can you learn from each other? Or what did you learn from each other or from your cohort?
Speaker 3:For me, it was that, regardless of our size and our geographical location, we were all experiencing the same challenges and the same successes. Sometimes you think you're the only person dealing with whatever it is that you're dealing with at that moment, and the cohort for me shone light that no education is education, regardless of where you're doing it.
Speaker 4:The assumptions that we make, that you know other districts, those are not their problems, but learning you know that they are and that they've had a team of people who probably thought through them already and found a really great way to address them, has been very beneficial.
Speaker 4:And I've also my, I guess, uh, understanding, or who I consider to be my colleagues, has also changed, whereas it used to be my colleagues who were within my district or even across the state, colleagues within the cohort, but now I also view my colleagues as the researchers that I go to in the literature, because those are people doing the work too, you know, around the world. And so what? What did they do? Well, it may not be the exact same problem of practice. Maybe we don't have the same context. There are aspects of the con, of our context, that are similar, aspects of the problem of practice they're addressing that are similar, that I can apply within my setting and so um. So I found that to be you a new change, I guess, or a change that has happened, you know, through the program yeah, for me one thing that sticks out is one of the first nights.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people in my cohort from the Gwinnett school system and we were talking the first night and I kind of started counting in my head and one of them, I mean laughed and said, are you counting red lights?
Speaker 2:and I said yeah, there's four in my County so you know, that's a very different experience that I have versus somebody who works in Gwinnett. But you know for one, the cohort is very powerful. There's not a week that doesn't go by that somebody in our group chat still doesn't ask a question about something. So you know, two years out and we're still communicating back and forth. So you know, two years out and we're still communicating back and forth. You know, even if we can't identify with a problem that somebody else has, they're a room full of professionals.
Speaker 2:And if we're at a loss, if I'm at a loss, I know there's a group of people in my cohort that I can reach out to and even if they haven't experienced that problem, they're knowledgeable and they have a good, good education in the University of Georgia and they're able to help us through that. In addition to that, even our professors I still bounce things off of professors from time to time two years out, dr Flowers, one of the professors. He still helps me working with professional learning for principals in my school system. So you know, even though I graduated two years ago, I'm working with professional learning for principals in my school system. So you know, even though I graduated two years ago, I'm still connected with classmates and with professors.
Speaker 4:It's exciting. At first, you know, I was starting the program. I thought this is going to be amazing. University of Georgia. I'm going to learn so much from my professors. And then you walk in the room. It's like orientation and you're learning who your new colleagues are. They're superintendents and heads of the district and instructional coaches and assistant principals and principals. And I remember at first initially just feeling a bit intimidated by the people in the room and the wisdom in the room. I thought, what do I have to contribute here? Um, but now you know, just then that evolved to. I get to be in the room with these people Like. I get to be connected, like you were talking about the group chat. You're right, I mean, we still, you know, have a question or hey, I'm about to apply for this position, can we talk and can I learn a little bit more about it? Can we share some resources? And so it's been tremendous.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I think the networking is just a huge, valuable component of the doctoral program, like it is professional organizations. So that's very exciting to hear how you're continuing to keep those relationships going. And it's great to hear how, even though your districts are different, how you saw that there's value in learning from each other. You know, because students are students and parents are parents, there's some little different external factors in each place and the bottom line is teaching and learning is what has to occur in that building and you're able to steal those ideas from each other. I think that's phenomenal. Well, I talked to some of your professors before you all came in and they all shared with me that each of you three are very, very open to helping the new cohort coming in, and I even believe they told me that you may have taught a lesson online or joined a class online, even though you're one month out from graduating. Why is it important for each of you to help out the next generation or those next cohorts going through the program that you finished?
Speaker 4:I was going to let you go first. She was also my editor in just my saving grace the entire third year of the program, and we had never met before, and so it was really fun to meet her for the first time in person, this person who had just had a tremendous role in my dissertation, and so I finally got to meet her just before graduation, and so she's a pretty special person to a lot of us.
Speaker 3:So, ben, when you talk about networking, like it goes outside of our cohort right, like we have been able to connect with each other, I think, in various ways I know that you, your cohort, was able to do a walkthrough gallery walkthrough with the cohort behind you so that they could understand what that experience is like. So, for me, knowing what it felt like to go through the program, I believe, is what pushes me to be of support to the next group that's coming up behind, because sometimes you do feel like you're alone and on an island, because there's a lot going on. Your family doesn't always know exactly what it is that you're experiencing. So my editing is more about, I hope, encouraging and cheering and saying that you can do this and let me help you get to that finish line.
Speaker 4:She really did do that too.
Speaker 4:I remember, too, learning her role beyond being an editor for so many of us and just thinking I'm just not living right Like she does an amazing job of fulfilling all of these roles, you know, in her personal life as a spouse and a mom and then also in her role for Gwinnett County Schools and then also an editor, and so she not intentionally, but did encourage me to, you know, just see it all as an opportunity.
Speaker 4:But I'm just so proud to be a graduate of the University of Georgia and it is something that I proudly, you know. When people ask you know where I went to school or where I got my degree, in saying the University of Georgia there is a standard that is set there. I think an expectation is the reputation of excellence and just that bar that is so high of how we show up, how we show up for our community, how we show up for our school and has done so much for me in that regard. Just my confidence and how I now view the world differently than I did even three years ago, and just this call to service has really been impacted and I want to give back to an organization that fed into me and so any opportunity you know that I can get to do that, like last night, you know, being able to share, which was really fun by the way getting to share, you know, just a few tools that could hopefully make the current students, future doctors, their life a little bit easier in their final year.
Speaker 4:Then I'm happy to do that.
Speaker 2:And I'll just kind of echo that I've connected with a few students over the last few years just as a source of answering questions and to try to encourage them because, again, I tell this to everybody, it's the greatest thing that I've ever done for myself professionally. It's a lot of work, it was a lot of hard work, but it was a lot of good work and you know, for what people may think about a doctor, I don't want anybody to be discouraged because I know the value that the University of Georgia provided for me in my job and I want to encourage people. Don't be timid about applying. Just like she said, just hit submit. That's right, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, you know a couple of you. I think at least that's awesome. Well, you know a couple of you, I think at least talked about people in your life, privileged you or pushed you to do this or to continue this or finish this. I think it's so important for us as educational leaders that we're always looking at our staff, the people that are working I hate to say for us I like to say with us but that are younger and they need someone, like you all, to see the potential in them and to speak that over them and to tell them that you see something in them, that you believe they've got what it takes that they can take that next step, whether it's a position, whether it's going back to school. So I think that's phenomenal. As we wind up this session, I thought I'd give each of you an opportunity, maybe to tell two things why public education is important to you. And number two just a final word of encouragement for anyone out there that wishing that submit button to the University of Georgia who would like to go first.
Speaker 2:I'll go first. I feel like everybody was kind of waiting, so I'll go first. For me, public education. Why is it so important For me? I'm a product of public education. Both of my children are a product of public education.
Speaker 2:You know I'm happy to say that both of my children attended all of their schooling years in the school system that I currently work in. Dinkins County school system is a great school system and you know I'll fight to the end that public education is the best experience and it's the best education that a child can get in the state of Georgia. I can tell you that much. And as far as encouraging anybody again, it really is the greatest thing you ever do for yourself professionally and I'll encourage decision makers who are in a school system.
Speaker 2:I was fortunate enough in my school system that I was allowed professional time when I had to leave and make that long drive during the week. I know now it's kind of on the weekend so that's not necessary. But you know, encourage your people that work in your school system. That that you will get if they need four hours a week of professional learning to work on this. I promise you it's a benefit to your school system and it's a benefit to those people who you work with, so give them every opportunity they can awesome so with public education.
Speaker 4:So I too am a product of public education. Now, now, as a school leader, you know it is our constitutional right Like everyone is entitled to a free and appropriate education. And as a school leader I hold that honor very seriously and such a privilege to be able to serve our community. We know that public education not only can change the trajectory of someone's life, it also enhances a community. And so I just take the charge of leading within a public school system, you know, again, just with honor, and just call on want to represent that well, and so that knowing that what we do within our school it's not limited to our school but again, it does impact the community, it's what draws people in to want to live within that community, and so I'm leaving it wholeheartedly.
Speaker 4:And then, for those of you who are considering a doctoral program, while course I recommend the University of Georgia wholeheartedly, when making the consideration of which school to attend for my doctoral program, you know, the things that I considered is that this would likely be the last degree that I would pursue and that I wanted to get the most out of it. It wasn't for me just about trying to, you know, have the title of doctor by my name. But it was about becoming a better leader, a better me, and being able to contribute to the field beyond myself and within my community and, you know, through the University of Georgia, opportunities to present and contribute to the field on a global level, national conferences, opportunities you would never have, I would never have otherwise, you know, considered, and so I cannot recommend UGA enough. So Awesome.
Speaker 3:Justice, my colleague stated. I'm also a product of public education, so are my sons, so is my family, and so what I do believe about public school education is that it is the most authentic experience that students have as a representation of the real world, and so, when we want our kids to know what they are to expect walking out into the world, public K-12 gives them that experience, and so I will always be an advocate for kids knowing exactly what to expect walking out into the world and how to collaborate and how to communicate and just how to be good public servants, and I do believe that we are the best in the business to teach them that. Regarding UGA, I am bleeding black and red. I'm like Amanda. I'm not going to encourage you to go anywhere else if you are thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Click submit and apply to get your doctorate.
Speaker 3:Yes, it is hard work, but, as JP said, it is good work, and not only does it change you professionally, it changes you personally. So if you are a parent, just imagine what your children will say to you after graduation, having watched you walk this journey.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Those are great comments. You three are not just great ambassadors of the University of Georgia, but you represent everything that's right with public education in our state to Georgia, but you represent everything that's right with public education in our state, and I'm glad that we have leaders like you leading the children, the families and communities that are so vital and important. Our business and industry in the state of Georgia depends on public education, and you all are doing a fantastic job. You said something that really struck something with me that I hope our leaders that are watching this heard, and you said that while you started this program, that the leaders in your school district allowed you to have professional leave, and what that really said is they were willing to do whatever it took to invest in your future leadership, and I think that's important for all of us as leaders, to think about our people that are working with us at our schools or in our districts. Are we willing to allow them a little time off or some professional leave or encouragement or whatever it takes for them to get over the hump or to get over whatever obstacle may be out there?
Speaker 1:There's a famous saying you know people sometimes they worry about spending a lot of money on their people If they leave. They say, well, what if we spend all this money on this professional development and learning? And then they leave our district and the comeback to that is well, what if you don't spend the money and they stay, and so, anyway, I thought that was a great point that you made. You all did a fantastic job, like I said, representing both the University of Georgia, your school districts that you work at and lead in, and public education, and we thank you for coming today for this episode of Gale. Unscripted.
