GAEL UnscriptED
GAEL UnscriptED, the podcast that goes beyond the headlines and handbooks to bring you unfiltered insights from Georgia’s top educational leaders, innovators, and changemakers. Hosted by Ben Wiggins, Executive Director of GAEL, this show dives deep into the challenges, opportunities, and unexpected twists that shape education today.
From leadership strategies to policy discussions—and everything in between—GAEL UnscriptED is your go-to source for candid conversations that make an impact. No scripts. No fluff. Just real talk from those leading the way in Georgia’s schools.
GAEL UnscriptED
Leading with Heart
What does it really take to lead a school district? Two accomplished Georgia superintendents pull back the curtain on their leadership journeys in this illuminating conversation.
Dr. Robbie Hooker (Clark County Schools) and Philip Brown (Jackson County Schools) trace their paths from classroom teachers to district leaders, sharing candid stories about the pivotal moments that shaped their careers. Dr. Hooker reveals how he transformed from psychology student to kindergarten teacher before becoming an award-winning high school principal. Brown discusses being appointed principal at just 28 years old and receiving the humbling advice that would guide his leadership philosophy: "You'll succeed because you have no idea what you're doing—so you'll listen."
Both superintendents agree that the high school principalship, though extraordinarily demanding, represented the most rewarding period in their careers. They describe the delicate balance of empowering students and teachers while maintaining high expectations for all learners regardless of background or circumstances.
The conversation explores critical leadership principles that transcend position titles. "Every day is a job interview," Brown emphasizes, highlighting how reputation becomes currency in educational leadership. Dr. Hooker stresses that effective leaders must be "confident but humble," capable of building trust through genuine relationships. Both superintendents underscore the importance of finding the right community fit when pursuing leadership positions—researching thoroughly rather than chasing titles.
For current and aspiring educational leaders, this conversation offers invaluable wisdom about navigating career transitions, building effective teams, and creating learning environments where every student can thrive. As Dr. Hooker beautifully frames it, true leadership success comes from developing "disciples of your legacy" who continue advancing educational excellence long after your tenure ends.
Welcome to Gale Unscripted, where leadership meets learning and real conversations drive real impact. I'm Ben Wiggins, executive Director of Gale. Join us as we go beyond the headlines with Georgia's top education leaders. Let's elevate the conversation. Welcome, gale members. We're here for actually our first guest on the Gale Unscripted podcast Today. We have two special guest superintendents We've got Robbie Hooker from Clark County Schools and we've got Phillip Brown from Jackson County Schools. So I'm just going to give them a minute or two, just introduce themselves, maybe tell us about their family real quick and then we'll dive right into this. Robbie, won't you start us off?
Speaker 2:thank you. My name is Robbie Hooker. I'm concluded my 36 years in education, been married going on 30 years, july 15, to Karen Hooker. My beautiful wife and I have two kids a daughter who is getting married this summer and is a third year teacher, and my son who just finished college at Georgia Southern and will be starting at UGA in the fall in mass communication and journalism. So that's awesome, congratulations.
Speaker 1:Wait, when is that waiting? July 11th wow, you got some plans tonight, don't you got some bills and some checks to write.
Speaker 3:I'm just thinking about the 36 years and uh, wow, congratulations, thank you. I'm philip brown. I'm the school superintendent in jackson county. I am just finished my third year there as superintendent. This is my 22nd year in public education and I'm married to Catherine Brown, who's currently the principal at Collin Ferry Elementary School in Oconee County. She's at the end of this year moving to Barrow County as their chief academic officer, excited for her and uh in her career and all the amazing things that she does. Uh, we have four children, uh, landon's 14, owen's 12. I hope I get these right.
Speaker 3:Lincoln's 10 and Annabelle's three so a three-year-old at the house and a baby girl. So we we have lots of fun in our house and, uh, it's just uh every day's an adventure.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 3:You want to share the story when I foretold the birth of your fourth child without anyone even knowing it, walking into a restaurant one day and mr williams decided he would uh say that I forget exactly, you sent a text and said y'all should have a fourth I said the fourth one will definitely be a girl. You did say that the fourth one will definitely be a girl, so I walked in and shared the news with him that there was a fourth one on the way. Did we know at that?
Speaker 1:time that it was gonna be a girl. I think no. No, you had just found out she was pregnant. I knew, I knew you had that inclination. I just had a feeling All right. Well, robbie, why don't you start off and just tell us why did you choose to get into public education?
Speaker 2:Was there a reason?
Speaker 1:Was there someone that influenced you? Why did you decide?
Speaker 2:to get into public education. You know, I went to college and got a psychology degree and my goal was to get a master's degree and become a psychologist and help people with their problems. God has a way of changing your direction. I spent a summer in Waycross at Georgia Alliance Camp for the Blind, went back and got a master's in special education and went from there. I went to the state and had a great experience. My first year of teaching, believe it or not, was kindergarten. I taught kindergarten my first year of teaching.
Speaker 2:I did not know that, yes, I did and had a great experience and had an opportunity to, uh, teach at all grade levels. I did three years of elementary school, three years of high school and two years of middle school. That is fantastic. I had no idea about the elementary the kindergarten.
Speaker 3:That's serious street credit right there. We should do some research on your kindergarteners where they are.
Speaker 1:Where are they now? That would be a great idea.
Speaker 2:Those kids are probably 45?. Wow, I don't know where they're going.
Speaker 1:That is fantastic. That's good stuff All right, phillip.
Speaker 3:How about you? You know it was an interesting path. Neither one of my parents were educators and neither one of them were really college graduates, and so for me it was the opportunity to go to Vasa State and sat in a business class and did a presentation and the professor at the end of it kind of said hey, have you ever thought about being a, a teacher? I don't know if you didn't think I was cut out for business or already thought you know this. This guy connects well with people and and that might be a good career for him.
Speaker 3:So went to Vasa State Robbie and I are both Blazers and got a degree in middle school education and then started my teaching career in Camden County, taught for a year there and then moved over to Eccles County down in South Georgia yes, good, I love that place, great people. And then Catherine and I decided we were going to come to Georgia, come to Athens, and get our PhDs, and so it was an opportunity at Oconee County for me, and then she went over to Barrow and was a teacher there. So middle school, math and science that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:We're all three from south Georgia. Yeah, we've got Thomas county right here, the big town of Boston, boston, georgia. That's right. That's right, we have a big marathon every year, right, uh, but it many marathon. I still call it Central of Thomasville. That's still what I call it to this day. And then Phillip went to that school that was our nemesis growing up forever Valdosta High School. I'm from Moultrie and we didn't like Valdosta people very much because they beat us all the time. Well, both of you, you got into education and teaching and then at some point you decided to become an administrator and talk to us about that process, like, why did you become an administrator? Most of us, when we get into teaching, we don't think about it. That's not our plan. Things just kind of happen. But Phillip, why don't you start off and tell us how you got into administration as a?
Speaker 3:principal, start off and tell us how you got into administration as a principal. So I've been teaching for five years and just started thinking about the opportunity to, you know, create a larger sphere of influence. And so I interviewed for a middle school assistant principal job at Oconee Middle. I was fortunate enough to be hired there and Zernona Thomas, who retired a few years ago as the superintendent of Clark County, was our principal and you know she and I had a meeting just her and I and she says you know I'll be here five years and hopefully I'll get you trained up long enough that you'll have an opportunity to interview and get this job when I leave in five years. Six months later she got hired in Clark County and left.
Speaker 3:And so I interviewed for the job at Oconee Middle and was fortunate enough to be chosen. You know, looking back, 28 years old, knowing what I know now, I don't know if I would have been a superintendent who was bold enough to make that decision, to make that hire. And just very thankful Dr John Jackson gave me the opportunity. And just very thankful Dr John Jackson gave him the opportunity. And so I think that the one thing that I learned in all that process I had a mentor who I went to see during that process and going through the interviews, and I consulted with him and I said you know, what do you think? And I just want your honest opinion. Am I ready? Can I handle it? Am I going to fail? And he said I think you'll be great.
Speaker 3:And I took that as a you know, this confidence that this gentleman who'd been doing it for a long time had in me. And as I was walking out the door he said, hey, do you want to know why? I think you'll be great at it. And I said, yeah, that's probably good to know. And then he told me he, well, I think you'll be great because you have no idea what you're doing and there's veteran teachers there and you will listen to them and you'll take their advice and they'll help guide you and you'll learn a lot and you'll fail and make some mistakes, but you'll learn from those mistakes and so that was a humbling comment because it just reminded me that in these jobs and educational leadership you fail often and that's how you pick yourself up and try to make the best decision you can possibly make for the kids in those buildings that's outstanding.
Speaker 1:Okay, robbie, why don't you share with us how you got into the role of principal and made that move from teaching into administration well, I had a fortunate.
Speaker 2:I was very fortunate that when I worked here in Clark County dr Maxine Neeson was my principal and she was a great influence here. I got an opportunity to work as an assistant principal. They were opening a new middle school in Barrow County Westside middle school Jairus Hayes and Dr Sheila Kars. I got to work with Jairus Hayes for one year, I think one or two years, and then he went and opened the Appalachee. So I spent I served as an assistant principal for six years and I got to spend a lot of time with Sheila Kars who really pushed about if you're going to be an effective administrator, you better know instruction, she says. The majority of my job was discipline, but she says anybody can do discipline. She says, but you need to know instruction if you're going to be effective. And she provided opportunities for me to become an instructional leader. My first principalship was at Burning Harris Lions Middle School. My first principalship was at Bernie Harris Lyons Middle School. Dr Holloway gave me he was the superintendent of Clark County an opportunity to be principal there and I loved middle school.
Speaker 2:I spent 13 years in middle school Wow, and just to see the change putting kids first. A lot of times, as principals, we want to do what's right for adults and make sure they get the sweet spot or whatever they want to teach. I've always focused in on this and I learned this from Sheila Carr. She's always said all kids, including our special ed kids, let's not lower the bar. Let's have high expectations for all kids. Her big thing to me was if you're going to be an effective leader, you have to read. Good leaders read constantly and are always finding things or ways to get better and don't settle don't settle for mediocrity.
Speaker 1:So I I've enjoyed it and then moved on to the hospital that's awesome, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you've been an award as a high school principal at Clark Central.
Speaker 2:I did in 2013. I won the Georgia Principal of the Year and Phillip and I was just talking about being the high school principal. I spent eight years in that job. It's like every year is a dog year. Seven years early.
Speaker 2:Eight years in that job it's like every year is a dog is seven years early in high school, but I can tell you that was the most rewarding time of my career going into Clark Center. I think it was needs improvement year nine or something of that. We came off that list. Our AP's increased, our SAT scores went out, but it wasn't because of me, it was because of empowering teachers and reminding them that we do not educate kids based upon their address and having crucial conversations, but also doing it with love, empowering and empowering kids. I'll never forget my first year there. We had a think rally. I was not pleased with it, so I cut out pet rallies. For about a year there were no pet rallies, but students came to me and said, hey, can we have a pet rally? I said, okay, tell me what it's going to be like. So they scheduled it out. When it's led by the students, you get a better product as opposed to the adults, and so I've always been a proponent of empowering our students as well.
Speaker 1:That's fabulous. You know, I hear that from a lot of leaders that move on to the district office and role of superintendency. A large number of them say exactly what Robbie just said, that their favorite job of their time in education was that of a high school principal, and I certainly agree with that 100%. Phillip, you're pretty fresh off coming out of that high school principal role. Have you rested up yet?
Speaker 3:And what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, the high school principal job stretches you and it stretches you as a leader, as a thinker, and one of the things that that I wrestled with a lot as a high school principal is that students independence and their independent thought and your ability as the leader to manage and think and lead and help them become adults and help them think through what their future looks like and what kind of adult that they want to be and that they need to be. And I, you know, graduation is always a special time and we're in that season right now and you walk, you watch the students walk across the stage and shake your hand and oftentimes I'll just, you know, I'll be thinking and praying that that student finds success in their life. But no, the high school principal job. So I was at Coney Middle for two years as a principal and John Jackson as superintendent we had some challenges at North and walked in as the eighth principal counting the interims in seven years. So the school had been open seven, and so I walked in as the eighth principal counting the interims in seven years. So the school had been open seven, and so I walked in as number eight and just trying to figure out, because you're always, as a leader, trying to build teams. You're building teams with your faculty, you're building teams with your parents, in your community, also building teams with students and how do you, how do you create the environment, the culture that people want to be a part of?
Speaker 3:Right now, one of the challenges in education leadership is attracting people and recruiting them and retaining them that are higher performing. I mean, there there's so many individuals like you two who walked out the door in the last four or five years and I just think about how, how do we replenish our leadership capacity as a state? How do we? You know, each individual districts has their own challenges and then each school has their challenges as far as having the capacity in those buildings to be able to be successful and continue to push the bar. There's more challenges in public education right now than any other time during my life. There's so many different factors and I think, with the high school principal job just reflecting on that, the challenges that came with social media kids access to that, teachers access to that, communities access to that how that changed things. Because you know so, 24-7 communication is a 24-7 media cycle and you're just you're wrestling with all those things and trying to you know, trying to to put your school and put those students in the best situation to be successful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome Great answers, great insight. At this time, we'd like to recognize one of our partners at Gale Syntegics. Many, many of our school districts have Syntegics and that is becoming even more increasingly important with the new House Bill 268, the school safety bill.
Speaker 2:So we want to thank.
Speaker 1:Daniel Dooley and all of the Sintesix employees. They're fantastic partners for Gale. So now we're going to move into the point. You're very successful high school principals and now you're, at some point you're going to make the move to the district office. Some people would say you're moving to the dark side, right? So, robbie, why don't you talk to us about your move from high school principal to the superintendency? What that looked like, what caused that? When did you start thinking about that?
Speaker 2:There's a lot of young leaders out there that will be watching and listening to this podcast that they're currently an assistant principal or they're working at the district office or serving as a principal and they got these questions in their mind, so talk to them a little bit about how you went through that process, as I said, in the principal's position, and at no point I was thinking about superintended, you know, but I thought about Atlanta City. They had a superintendent who was a special ed teacher and very seldom do you hear of superintendents who have special ed background. They're usually coaches or worked in facilities, operations, something of that nature, and I can't think of his name right now. But that inspired me. But I had been at Clark Central eight years. Someone had spoken to me about an opening in Henry as assistant superintendent for high schools and I was like no, I'm not sure they came back. I got the job, the best experience in three years. I go from being principal of 1,500 students. You go to Henry County, 43,000 students. You go with 10 traditional high schools, three programs and doing that time period we had a superintendent who was thought out, brought in a new fresh superintendent, mary Elizabeth Davis. Many of you know her and just in that short period of time I learned so much from her about organization, about how to deal with the board, and we had some great conversations. But I learned from her and the opportunity availed itself for me to become superintendent of social circle city schools. So you go from 43,000 to 17 or 1800 students huge switch and. But the interesting thing is when you're in a smaller system you better know every aspect of district office. So I was able to learn a lot.
Speaker 2:Interesting thing this is my second superintendency in Clark County. I never brought anyone with me from the district. I always believed you need to develop the people that you have there in order to survive, so develop people there in social circle. We saw some games and then came to clark county. But the superintendency I had mentors, just like you. John jackson was one. The other one was Phil the new and he challenged me as a high school principal at all times.
Speaker 2:But just going out there and looking at superintendents who've been very successful, let's think about a little bit. To spend 53 years in the business, we call them the Godfather. Anytime you got an opportunity to be around him and just listen to his systems and processes. We went through SPDP and we had an opportunity to spend a full day with this guy. You got to think he was up there in age as superintendent but he moved like a young person and he talked. He didn't have scripted notes or whatever. He just told you his system and processes and we were very impressed and people walked away and said I wish I had half of the skills that this man had. So, yeah, it's been great.
Speaker 2:And as a superintendent, you have to think from the Baffinian perspective. You can't get into weeds as a principal. You get into weeds of things, but as superintendent, you have to look from the back end perspective, empower your leaders and move forward. You want them to grow. Your thing is that you want to be able to, when you leave or have others who are under you are able to seek superintendency successfully. So I call them disciples of your legacy. Both of you are disciples of Jason Branch, who has done an excellent job.
Speaker 1:Because it's my first year of superintendency, he served as my mentor and I called him a lot, a lot, yeah, a lot, and I learned a lot from him. That's awesome. I think you make great points. You know people are out there watching. You know when you become a principal and or a superintendent, you don't get to bring in a team of people that you're bringing from your district that you're leading if you're coming from the outside. So I think you bring up an excellent point about having to you make sure that you're using the people that are there currently. I always told people you know they didn't choose me, but I chose them. I chose to be there and I thought it was important that I learn that culture and learn to make sure that I learned how that system worked before I started making changes.
Speaker 1:So, phillip, why don't you talk to us about how you you know Robbie had the opportunity to go from the high school principal position to the district office for a number of years, which I think is a huge advantage? You and I did not have that opportunity, so why don't you talk about going straight from the high school principal seat to the?
Speaker 3:superintendency. A couple of things that just stick out. The first is that we're all three mentioning names and that we've all had mentors, and connectivity is so important in this business because each individual community and each individual school district has their own set of challenges and they all have, you know, they all have something to be really proud of. In the same vein, I think it's really important for educational leaders to be connected with other educational leaders, because there are other people that are going through similar things and so being able to talk about those things, being able to strategize together and I think, as you change jobs, jobs especially from the principal to the superintendent, it's much more lonely and you get, you know.
Speaker 3:You only have, you know, a handful of people that you can talk to and then you've only got, you know, you've got. You've got to be connected from the superintendent level to other superintendents to be able to have those conversations. A few things that I think about is that a lot of educational leaders I think don't think about. The first is every day is a job interview, and I think people think that the interview is the most important part of trying to get a job. And I would say that your reputation, it's a smaller world than people think it is.
Speaker 3:People talk and they have conversations and so what people say about you and how you treat people, even when you have to make a difficult decision and move on from an employee. But how do those people and how does that community respond to those type of decisions that you have to make and what do they say about you as the leader? And sometimes they're not going to say nice things and you've got to be fine with that. You've got to have thick skin on that, because if you know you're doing it for kids and you're doing the right thing for the school and the organization, then you make the right decision, so every day is a job interview.
Speaker 3:But I would tell you this also, jackson County was not the first superintendent job I interviewed for, and that's something that you're not going to get every job that you get in before. And it's important to understand how you respond when you don't get a job that you think you deserve or you think you've earned. And you've got to understand that there's a reason why and you might not be the perfect fit for that. In my case, I always thought that God had something more for me, in store for me, and I needed to be prepared and it's a lesson. It's a learning lesson also and in each of these jobs there's, unfortunately, there's politics to get played and you have to understand the political arena. You have to understand the community, the fit, the fit with the school district, the fit with the board, the history of the school district, what's happened in those school districts is all important questions to think through and understand. But for me, being at North Oconee for 11 years and that you know, seeing the growth that we saw as a school in student population, the growth that we saw academically, athleticallyically and in the arts, I just said to myself at what point do you look for the next challenge? And for me, jackson County made perfect sense. Personally, it was close enough that my wife could continue in her career, because when you both have jobs and education or whatever field you're in, I think it's important from a family standpoint to understand that her career is just as important as mine, and people that have worked with her would probably say she's a lot more talented than I am, which is probably understandable. But also, just where can you go and make a difference? And I had a chance to follow April Howard, who's the superintendent in Jackson County, and I thought she did a tremendous job of planning and putting me in a position to be successful. And I think leaders, that's really important is when you hand the baton to the next person and Dr Hooker has done that and Mr Wiggins has done that as well when you hand that baton off, you want to know in your heart that that place, that organization, that school, that district is in a better place than the new heritage, and I think dr howard did a tremendous job with that. And, and you know, we're currently on that ie5 corridor. So we're seeing tremendous growth, student population growth and we've grown starting my fourth year, 662 additional kids per year on average, and so there there are challenges that come with that growth and there's also tremendous opportunities.
Speaker 3:And we've tried to refocus our staff, you know, because some, some of our staff have been in Jackson County for a long time and they've seen the community change and what, what we've tried to, from a leadership standpoint, and instill in people is that the every kid that walks through the door, whether they've been in our community and live in our community their entire life or this is their first day in our community, it may be the first day in our country that we're going to love them, that we're going to respect them and we're going to treat them with integrity and we're going to give them the best possible public school education that we can possibly give them.
Speaker 3:And so you know, in my mindset that was my thought in going into the superintendency, reflecting back, I think in any leadership position I think you better humble yourself enough to know that you can fail and just knowing, surround yourself with amazing people who have the same heart and values that you have. But in the back of your mind you're always contemplating, like what happens if this is unsuccessful? And I don't think that changes from going into year four than it was going into year one is that if you have that motivation in the back of your mind of I refuse to let this fail for this community and for these kids. And you listen. The active listening part of leadership can never be underestimated. And it's not just about listening, it's about actively listening. That doesn't mean you have to do exactly what the other person is telling you to do, but you better listen.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's very important. Rodney Phillip talked a little bit about fit. Why don't you talk about you? You know people out there that are thinking about applying for, whether it's a principal job next door in a district or across the state, or a superintendent job. Talk to them a little bit about how important it is for the fit of that leader with the school, the district and the community.
Speaker 2:Expand on that. Well, I think it's important if you're going to search out for a principalship or superintendent, don't do it just for the title. Take time to research that school district, the community. It's interesting when I first applied for my first superintendency I'm like Philip here I applied to other superintendents job and now I reflect back and say thank you God, I did that job. But you have to think about that community. I always, when I apply for a job, drove through that community, sat down and ate at a restaurant if possible, to just get a feel of that community.
Speaker 2:But also research the board members, because you want to see what type of individual this is that you'll be working with. And the other thing is to remember is that when you go in there will your skill set take this school system or this school to the next level? And active listening is a part of it. But I think the best part of being a leader you've got to be confident but yet humble. You can be confident and humble at the same time. But if you come in there, gone blazing, saying it's gonna be my way or no way, I learned very quickly going from principalship to the district office. It's like going to Congress. You have to banner back and forth, you just can't have your way. You have to give in, concede to some things just to get what you need.
Speaker 2:But it's about having trust, a level of trust. What is it? Pd O'Lancy on these five dysfunctions Of a team. The bottom is trust, conflict and accountability, results. And I forgot the fifth one.
Speaker 2:But here's the thing Trust is the main factor. And how do you learn to trust someone is by spending time with those individuals. I know that in my first year as superintendent, I spend a lot of time going to lunches with my board members or having them over in my office and just getting a feel for them as to if I brought something to the board, whether it's going to pass or not. If I don't have the vote, don't bring it there. But as principal, what I learned very quickly when I got my job at Bernie Harrison at Clark Central you find out who are those top performing teachers. You want to get them on your side. So, having those conversations, and even with the students, I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:When I went to Clark Central, I had this girl come up to me I thought she was a faculty member this was in July when I started and she was coming in and had a whole proposal of what her organization was going to do. And I'm like, who's this person? It was a student leader and what she wanted to do. And with the teachers, just tell them have a vision. You've got to have a vision and you've got to be able to spread it. You've got to have an elevator speech, no matter where you go, as to how, if you are given an opportunity to serve in this capacity, how you can make a difference. That's awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, thank both of you for joining us on this very first episode. Thank you for agreeing to join us on some future episodes that we'll be recording as well. Today was excellent. I just want to thank both Robbie and Phillip for joining us today. Thanks, sir.
