GAEL UnscriptED
GAEL UnscriptED, the podcast that goes beyond the headlines and handbooks to bring you unfiltered insights from Georgia’s top educational leaders, innovators, and changemakers. Hosted by Ben Wiggins, Executive Director of GAEL, this show dives deep into the challenges, opportunities, and unexpected twists that shape education today.
From leadership strategies to policy discussions—and everything in between—GAEL UnscriptED is your go-to source for candid conversations that make an impact. No scripts. No fluff. Just real talk from those leading the way in Georgia’s schools.
GAEL UnscriptED
Teachers Don't Leave Schools, They Leave Leaders: A Guide to Retention
Dr. Jolie Hardin takes us deep into the hidden rhythms of the school year that every educational leader should understand but few ever discuss. Drawing from her 11 years as a principal and extensive work in district leadership, Dr. Hardin unveils the six emotional phases teachers experience throughout the academic year - and why misalignment between administrative timing and teacher needs drives talented educators away.
The conversation centers on a powerful revelation: leaders often pile on new initiatives, observations, and meetings during October through December, precisely when teachers hit their emotional low point in what researchers call the "disillusionment phase." This misalignment creates unnecessary stress that contributes directly to teacher burnout and turnover. As Dr. Hardin explains, "They almost want to give up. They don't want to collaborate anymore, they don't even want to get out of their cars."
Beyond identifying the problem, Dr. Hardin offers concrete solutions through structured teacher check-ins with questions designed to uncover specific support needs - physical, institutional, emotional, or instructional. Her approach helps leaders document their support efforts while genuinely addressing teacher concerns. One particularly revealing question she recommends: "What would you use three extra hours in the day for?" which reveals what teachers feel they're neglecting.
The discussion challenges school leaders to examine their timing through a new lens, reconsidering everything from when they schedule observations to when they administer climate surveys. Through practical examples and research-backed strategies, Dr. Hardin provides a roadmap for leaders who genuinely want to improve teacher retention by supporting staff during their most vulnerable phases.
For new and veteran administrators alike, this conversation offers a rare chance to see the school year through teachers' eyes - and make the timing adjustments that could transform school culture and keep your best educators where they belong: in the classroom, feeling supported and valued.
Dr. Jolie Hardin is the Co-Executive Director of GAESP. She can be reached via email at jhardin@gael.org.
Welcome to Gale Unscripted, where leadership meets learning and real conversations drive real impact. I'm Ben Wiggins, executive Director of Gale. Join us as we go beyond the headlines with Georgia's top education leaders. Let's elevate the conversation. Today's episode is being brought to you by gaesp and gamsp, and today's featured podcast presenter is dr joe lee harden, who is also the co-executive director of gaesp. Welcome back gail members to another exciting episode of gail unscripted. We've got a very special guest today. We've got dr Dr Jolie Harden. Jolie, why don't you take a couple of moments and introduce yourself to all the Gale family out there?
Speaker 2:Thank you, ben. I'm so happy to be here. I was a principal for 11 years and I was at the district office in Henry County for my last eight years 11 years as a principal.
Speaker 1:That's a long time, right, and I was at how many schools.
Speaker 2:So I was in Houston County for eight years. I was in Henry for three years and I moved to the district office and so I was hired as the director of leadership development and I did that until we had a restructure. And then they moved my department to human resources and so I had leadership development and I was the executive director for employment services. So I had all job families, Sure, sure.
Speaker 1:So you went from school-level leadership to the district office. Talk about that jump just a little bit. There's a difference between being a school-level leader and the district. What did you learn from that experience?
Speaker 2:So what I learned at the school level you really are the final say in a lot of decisions and when you move to the district, there are lots of layers, lots of collaboration, cross-divisional work where you're not making that final decision, and you have to really learn about the work in other divisions in order to make sure that what you're doing in your division is pushing the district forward instead of just, you know, isolating and staying in your own department.
Speaker 1:Great point. Well, I know that there's been a lot of talk across the state just about teacher recruitment and retention. In fact, the Senate Education Committee Senator Billy Hickman, he charged Dr Jody Barrett with the PSC, with Senate Resolution 237, to get together with all of the agencies in the state of Georgia, including Gale, psc, trs, page I mean you name it University System of Georgia, the technical college system, page I mean you name it University System of Georgia, the technical college system to work on ideas to improve teacher recruitment and retention. And I know that's a passion of yours. Why are you so passionate about that and how did you first get involved with that?
Speaker 2:Well, in Henry County, especially after the pandemic, we were really searching for ways to retain our teachers and we really started focusing on educator wellness. And so I started reading some work around educator wellness and came across an author, moore Ellen Moore, who was writing about the phases of the school year and teacher attitude during the phases, was writing about the phases of the school year and teacher attitude during the phases, and then I started really diving into what are leaders doing during these phases that may be causing teachers?
Speaker 2:to want to leave leaders, and when we started looking at the exit survey data, we were realizing that a lot of times people would stay if they felt more comfortable or heard by their leaders.
Speaker 2:And so I continued to look through the work and found a couple other researchers Tina Bugren and Timothy Canold, and Laura Lipton and Bruce Wellman. They really focused in on what happens to new teachers during these phases, and so then we started considering okay, during the induction phases, are principals really paying attention to the needs of induction teachers? And so I began talking to teachers, educators, leaders about leader behaviors and then started developing sessions that I was presenting around the phases, and it really, to be honest with you, it's one of my most popular and most requested session because it really does help. It brings awareness to what educators are feeling, but it also helps leaders determine what type of targeted support teachers need and then maybe ways that they can back off, you know, during different times of the school year. And then I started reading the teacher burnout report and it really did support the work that you know that I was reading, so I got super passionate about that and really wanted to bring awareness.
Speaker 1:That's great. I can't imagine there's a leader out there at the school level or district level that this isn't at the forefront of their mind how to recruit teachers. You invest so much time in the hiring process to bring them on board. You train them, you mentor them and the last thing you want to do is have a revolving door where they're leaving Right, and all of us know in leadership, whether it's in the business world or in schools and districts, people don't leave jobs. For the most part, they leave leaders. They do so. Very, very interesting that this is a passion of yours. It's obviously on the forefront of our Senate Education Committee. You mentioned the phases of the school year. Right, talk about that.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 2:So there are six phases and we're going to start off with the anticipation phase, which runs from July to early September, and then teachers go into the survival phase, which is mid-September to mid-October, and then they hit the disillusionment phase, which is October to December, and the rejuvenation phase from January to April.
Speaker 2:Well, boogren, who is one of the researchers with the phases she added the state testing slump phase to her work, which began late February, march and April for those who are in testing grades and then the reflection phase from May to June, and then, of course, you go back to the anticipation phase. So if you're watching this, you'll see a graph that Ivy's going to post that shows what happens to teacher attitude. And so if you just think about you know you're at the top of a hill in the beginning and then you just going downhill and then you go back uphill and then downhill. It's a continuous cycle of emotions, really, and it's difficult for people to recognize what's stopping them or what's going to help them get out of that phase, because they don't realize the impact that leaders are having on them at that particular time. And it's really about what leaders are having them do to take away from their personal time and for their time in their classrooms, and so we'll get into that as well.
Speaker 1:Great, point I think back to when I was teaching. I didn't know anyone, and even as a principal, almost everyone is excited to come back for a new school year. You can see it in their faces, you can hear it in the words they're saying, the actions. It's one of the unique things about K-12 education it's a brand new year, brand new opportunities. And I wonder sometimes, as leaders, brand new opportunities? And I wonder sometimes, as leaders, do we think about the phases of the school year and be intentional about what we're doing with our teachers, both our veteran teachers and our new teachers? I think this is going to be fantastic. Why is it important for school and district administrators to be knowledgeable about these different phases?
Speaker 2:district administrators to be knowledgeable about these different phases. What I've realized is that a lot of times at the district level and school level, leaders have a tendency to think that their time is the best time, and I'm guilty of that.
Speaker 1:I can't identify Right. No, just kidding. Of course we do.
Speaker 2:But we decide when we want to push a lot of things out sometimes, and what we have a tendency to do is say, okay, let's wait until late September, october to push something out. Give people time to get acclimated to the school year, not realizing that they're hitting the disillusionment phase and their attitude toward teaching is so low at that time, when we start piling things on, they almost want to give up. They don't want to collaborate anymore, they don't even a lot of times they pull into the parking lot and they don't even want to get out of their cars. It's just, it's so hard for them. And so if we can begin to think about what we're asking teachers to do during that time of the year, we may change our timing, which will then help them.
Speaker 2:A couple examples observations. We all know that we have to do observations A lot of times. We get so busy as school-level leaders. We get busy and we wait until late September and October to begin the observations, which, if we really want to see what teachers can do with the energy that we want to see them with, we need to start early September. But because it's our time and we think this is most convenient for us, we wait until then, and then we get frustrated when we start seeing things and want teachers to change things. But yet we didn't start early on to help them. So now we're in the disillusionment phase and if there are some teaching strategies that may need to be corrected or changed, we've let them go on two or three months and now their attitude toward teaching is a little low, and now we're asking them to change something. And so then it becomes where they feel an us against them mentality and then they're on the verge of really giving up and reading exit survey data in december, when teachers have decided to leave halfway through the year, regardless if we take action against a certificate or not, it it. They felt unsupported and they felt the the stress level at the school was entirely too much because of what they were being asked to do. Now I know we have to do a lot of these things a lot. But another example I want to talk about is the number of meetings we have in October. Can principals consider backing off in October, during the disillusionment phase when teachers are really struggling? Not saying that you know they're not important. Meetings are very important, but can we consider reducing the number that we have?
Speaker 2:Another thing that is super easy for principals to consider the 12 days of holiday fun. We wait until the beginning of December to give what we want people you know to do, whether it's ugly sweater, jingle jewelry, you know, christmas socks, whatever. We wait until December to let them know that these are going to be the 12 days. Think about a new teacher who they don't really have the items that veteran teachers do and have collected over the years. If we were to somehow, over the summer, plan that month and even if we don't tell them exactly the days of what we're going to do, give them a list of items that they will need during pre-planning so they will have access and they will know okay for the next couple months. I know that I have to collect these items so I can participate in this, because when you give a new teacher who's probably already spent their paycheck over Thanksgiving, when you give them a list of items that they're going to need, that's another stressor.
Speaker 2:So, you've just added stress when it's supposed to be a fun time. So just small things like that. If we, as leaders, would consider the timing of when we send things out emails, when we ask teachers to come to our offices, why can't we go to their rooms instead? Just the smallest things during these times, that will make a huge difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk about that. So when the principal sends an email and says come see me in my office, think of all the negative connotations that that teacher feels as they read that email. And it could be for a very good reason. But I like your point there. I mean, why can't we just go to their classroom during their planning?
Speaker 2:period.
Speaker 1:Or when's a convenient time for them. You made a great point about our timing and I think it's maybe something to talk about is how did you, as a principal, go about making sure that you were getting feedback from your staff or leadership team to understand the difference between your timing and maybe what the staff was feeling was appropriate timing?
Speaker 2:Well, I can honestly say that this is probably one of my biggest regrets as a leader is that I didn't pay closer attention to my timing and that I felt, you know, if it was, if I thought of something, I send it out. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about helping leaders recognize how important it is not to make that same mistake. I think, in my department, when I really started working on this and I started paying close attention to what we were doing as a district, what we were asking principals to do during certain times of the year because I really started looking into this work, you know, the closer I was to you know, I was almost retired, really, it was probably two years before I was retiring I became very mindful of when information went out and when, you know, we were asking people can I stop by your building to see you, can I? I was really trying to back off during those months as a principal. I wish I would have had this information a lot sooner, because I think I would have really created all my leadership teams. I would have really had them.
Speaker 2:Consider all of these phases as we were building our school improvement plan, as we were determining when meetings were going to be when we were determining our events. In my sessions I have teachers and leaders. I have them chunk during each phase. What are additional duties that we ask teachers to do? Has 10 to 15 additional duties outside of teaching that we ask them to do during each phase, which then causes their joy for what they're doing and what they should be doing.
Speaker 1:To decrease a little bit you know, sometimes as a leader, we think well, we're only asking them to add this one thing. From school level, and sometimes from district level, hr is only asking to add this one thing and curriculum and instructions only asking to add these two things and, before you know it, the school level, the teachers, are overburdened with a lot of changes. I think it's very, very important to talk about that.
Speaker 1:So you bring up some excellent, excellent points and I'm kind of like you. I wish I could have could go back in time and redo this. I always tried to have people on my leadership team and to communicate to them. To please be honest with me and tell me when I'm going too fast, when I'm going too slow, when I'm when we need a break. I can think of a math teacher that I had in Pelham. He was fantastic by telling me hey, I know you think that this is a good idea and this message is what you meant to be heard, but this is what the staff heard you say.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I think as leaders we have to be willing to intentionally seek that kind of feedback so that we can be better leaders Absolutely. I know I had an assistant principal one time in Oconee County and she was fantastic. She would come to me and she would say Mr Wiggins, we're stressing our teachers out, it's time for a pizza party, but it's important to have people like that that are keeping the pulse on the school Well.
Speaker 2:And also, you can say something in September and say the same exact thing in October and November and their attitude to what you're saying is completely different, just because the way they're feeling. And so we just we have to be super mindful of it and, like I said, it's just one of my biggest regrets is not knowing this information and you know, and being able to apply it in that role.
Speaker 1:Today we're going to pause during our podcast and give a special commercial for our upcoming fall conference, presented by both GAESP and GAMSP, and alongside me today is GAESP co-executive director Hal Beaver to talk to us a little bit about the upcoming fall conference director, hal Beaver, to talk to us a little bit about the upcoming fall conference.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you, doc. I have to say that the elementary and middle school fall conference is once again being held in Athens at our classic center during the classic city, october the 19th through the 21st. We have some wonderful national keynote speakers and some wonderful breakouts that all principals need to be there and get their professional learning. It's the best PL learning that you can have in the whole wide world.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 3:So hope to see you all there. Room for you. We've got great sessions. We'll have a nice reception for everyone, so we hope to see you there. One of our speakers is Dr Jamie Vollmer. Jamie did a list of everything that the schools have to do. It's called the ever-increasing burden of America. Public schools and schools can't do it alone, and I think you all need to be there to hear his presentation. So be there.
Speaker 1:I remember I worked for a very veteran football coach years ago and he had his PhD in English. He was a very, very smart man, but he would always remind us that if we're dealing with players, if we're putting in a new play, then I want to see which play you're taking out. And I think that is a good reminder for us as leaders. If we're asking our teachers to add something, what are we taking away? And a lot of times that answer is nothing, Right.
Speaker 2:And if you think about let's think about the climate survey that the state, let's think about the climate survey that the state has schools do. The window opens in the beginning of December and it closes at the end of March. If they're in the disillusionment phase until December, it's going to be really hard to change that climate survey, especially when the questions there's lots of questions on there that say how overwhelmed are you due to your job? How stressful has your work been? And then there's a bunch of questions about given adequate time. I am not saying that we shouldn't give that survey at all, but during that particular time they're going to feel so overwhelmed all the time, especially new teachers, and so they don't have a clear enough picture of the entire school year. Up to that time they only see that moment.
Speaker 2:And so they're going to answer that survey of how they feel in that particular moment, not what happened, you know, from August up to then, up to that particular time. So I think if we were strategic about when we ask them to do the survey, because a lot of times, you know, we want to get it done before we leave for the semester break- Our timing. Our timing. It's not always our timing. That's right, and so let's take that into consideration.
Speaker 1:Very good point. If you're a leader out there, I would jot that down and I would put that on my calendar as a reminder. Just because the survey date is open, think about when you do that. In your experience, when do you think would be a much more appropriate time to maybe do that survey for your staff?
Speaker 2:I think when the second semester starts, the teachers have kicked off the school year. They're going back into the rejuvenation phase. I think January is a really good month. You know they've had a lot of time to reflect about the first semester and rest.
Speaker 1:Spend time with family.
Speaker 2:The stressful holiday moments are over and I think you know they get a better picture of how they really feel if they did it then, instead of when they are at their lowest point very smart, but again, the difference between our timing and what may be the best timing for the staff.
Speaker 1:What are some proactive approaches to supporting teachers during these different phases?
Speaker 2:So what I read in Mentoring Matters and this was part of the work that I read around the phases of the school year they really suggest that you change the way you are questioning teachers about the support they need, because a lot of times when you just say what can I do for you, especially induction teachers, they don't know what's a new teacher going to say, right exactly, they don't know. What's a new teacher going to say?
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, they don't know, they don't know what they need or if they do, they may feel a little nervous about telling the boss I need help with.
Speaker 2:X, right right. So I created a support check-in with six questions that they recommended, and the questions are what is your most pressing concern right now? What do you wish you knew right now? What do you wish you had to support you? What is making your job difficult right now and what can I provide that would make your life easier right now? So those were the questions that Mentoring Matters they suggested in that work. And then I added what would you use three extra hours in the day for? And the reason why I added that is because now I can see what they feel like they're neglecting and so if I can make some changes for them in the school day so they can get to what they would do with those three extra hours, that would show them that I really value their work-life balance and I want to do whatever I can to help them, you know, at home as well. Great point.
Speaker 1:I remember from the burnout report that the state did. One of the things that teachers said loud and clear was the protection of time. Such a big deal for teachers because they have so many things going on and if we as leaders are having a lot of meetings then we're taking away their time.
Speaker 2:We are so talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 1:Why is it so important for teachers to have that time, and what can leaders do to be a little more intentional about protecting that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, when I go back to the questioning, and they really have to be better active listeners and they really have to determine what type of support teachers need in order to be very efficient in the support they give them, so then they can have some of that additional time Physical support, institutional support, emotional support and instructional support we all know what instructional support looks like. I think we do a really good job in schools with instructional support. Physical support, especially for newer teachers have somebody available where they can ask where do I get this? How do I do this? You know, I need items for science lab, I need books for this.
Speaker 2:Institutional support really is the way you do things around there. But if we are proactive up front, then we are not forcing especially those new teachers to go and find that information. And when they are going to find that information, sometimes we are wasting their time when we could have actually given it to them, their time when we could have actually given it to them. And so I think if principals were just a little more mindful of what people need and know how to ask, then I think then we can be more efficient and then we can allow them to have a little more time.
Speaker 1:Good point. I read one time in a study it was talking about new teachers, when they're new to your building that sometime between Labor Day and Halloween they have decided this is the place for me or it's not, and so I think it's a good reminder to principal school leaders out there that you've got to set a good impression and, just like you mentioned, doing those check-in questions.
Speaker 2:They have to be regular. They've got to be routine and I think.
Speaker 1:More importantly, you have to act upon what they share with you.
Speaker 2:So I also created a check-in sheet for the leaders, and so, for an example, if one of the questions is what is your most pressing concern right now? And the response was, I don't know the content as well as I thought I did and I don't know where to find the science lab resources. So, when you think about the four targeted support buckets that I referred to, what you heard was they need instructional support and they need physical support. They need somebody to show them where things are. Another question why am I staying at school until 7 pm? What you hear is they need emotional support, instructional support or institutional support. You'll have to dig a little bit deeper.
Speaker 2:But what also happens is that this is a way for leaders to not only track the support they're giving, but also to have evidence that they did do something to help a teacher. I know a lot of times when we were reading exit survey report, it would say I was, I did not feel supported by my leader, and when we would have conversations with principals, they had no evidence to show that they did. They may have said well, I sent them to the coach or I sent them to their mentor. This form allows them to really document what the person said, what support was needed and what they did. The follow-through. And the follow-up is what's most important and that's you know. And so this really does it helps not only does it help a teacher, but it also protects a leader in giving them evidence to show that they did support a teacher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because as a leader, if I'm the principal and I call the Human Resources Department in late February, early March and say I want to make a change what's the? First question they're going to ask me.
Speaker 3:Why.
Speaker 1:Why and where's your documentation? What have you done to help so far with this person?
Speaker 2:So I think those are good suggestions to have, that to not only give the help to the teacher that's needed, but also to show and demonstrate that the leader has given every opportunity for that new teacher, because we really we are responsible and I've always said this If there's a struggling teacher in the building, I firmly believe it's the administration's responsibility to help that person, or, if they're not doing anything to help themselves, to help them find another pathway.
Speaker 1:You know we were talking before we came on the air. We spend so much time looking for and hiring a teacher and it's our professional responsibility to help them get better. Whether we're helping them get better for our school and our district, or even if they are going to leave, maybe we are going to make a change. But we've helped them and we've documented and we've given them every opportunity. But that teacher is going to teach other children in the state of Georgia and it doesn't matter if it's next door in a district. It's our professional responsibility to give that teacher every resource that we can provide to them so that they're successful for those children's sake, wherever they end up teaching. Right, right, very good. Well, if I'm watching this, I'm a leader either at the school level or district level. Where can I get more information on what you've been talking about, these phases? I'd never heard of these phases.
Speaker 1:Really, I knew there were phases, but I've never seen them spelled out and documented in certain months of the year.
Speaker 2:Well, we knew, as veteran teachers and leaders, we knew they existed right.
Speaker 2:We saw people, we saw them dip and everybody, especially if you're a veteran teacher you knew you were going to get out of it. New teachers don't know that and they're really questioning whether or not they got in the right profession. So if you really want to learn more about it, I've captured the work and I'm willing to share it with anybody who wants that, of course, through my PowerPoints and through all of my you know checklist and things that I've created. But those who really did the research behind it is Tina Bougren and Timothy Kenoid. They wrote a book called Educator Wellness, and so you can look that book up and find some of the phases in there. Ellen Moore she was the founder and chief executive officer of the New Teacher Center. She's the one that actually created the new phases.
Speaker 2:She's the one that really developed it, and then Laura Lipton and Bruce Wellman. They refer to it in Mentoring Matters work, and so that's another book it's called Mentoring Matters that you could really just purchase and you'll see a lot of information about the phases in there. We know it's out there, we just didn't know where to find it. Sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:So if they're listening at home or watching the podcast, if they wanted to get in touch with Jolie Harden.
Speaker 2:J Harden at Galeorg.
Speaker 1:Good, and if you can't remember that, you can go to the Gale website, look under G-A-E-S-B and you'll find Jolie's name and contact information. Reach out to her and she'd be glad to help you with this. I think this is an outstanding episode and, especially with the focus being on teacher recruitment and retention, I think is a great reminder for us as leaders. Teacher recruitment and retention, I think is a great reminder for us as leaders. What are we doing to ensure that we're hearing what our teachers need? How often are we checking in on them with sincere efforts, and how willing are we to listen, to make changes to our timing? That may not be what's best for the school as a whole and for those teachers, especially our new teachers, like you say, definitely.
Speaker 2:But the veteran teachers.
Speaker 1:they're the same way. I mean, they go through those phases and I just think this is such great information and research and we appreciate you coming on today and sharing this with you. Maybe there's a brand-new principal out there and they're just hearing this for the first time and they're thinking, oh, I wish I would have known that they know they can reach out to you, but what would you tell a new principal right now?
Speaker 1:You're listening to this podcast, you're hearing this. What's one tangible, actionable step they can take right now, today, to address some of this?
Speaker 2:I know that your year is probably mapped out. I would sit down with your leadership team. I would show them the phases, I would give them information around the phases and I would look at your school improvement plan and I would honestly ask them what could we possibly adjust? If there's anything right now that would change the timing of the way we do things, you start planning in March for the next year, or February, whenever you start planning. I would pull out these phases and I would have your team really consider when we are creating these action steps in our plan. What are we doing? What are we putting on teachers and not taking off, and are we going to be able to execute this plan the way we need to execute it, because the timing is right for them, not just for us.
Speaker 1:Perfect, and I think school-level leadership superintendents who are you hearing from? Who talks to you? Who do you seek feedback from, to come to you and say, hey, we need to back off of this, we're moving too fast, or whatever. I think it's important for all of us and great reminders.
Speaker 2:So thank you, Jolie, for joining us today.
Speaker 1:I'm sure we'll have you back for another episode. Thank you, gail members, for joining another episode of Gail, unscripted.
