GAEL UnscriptED
GAEL UnscriptED, the podcast that goes beyond the headlines and handbooks to bring you unfiltered insights from Georgia’s top educational leaders, innovators, and changemakers. Hosted by Ben Wiggins, Executive Director of GAEL, this show dives deep into the challenges, opportunities, and unexpected twists that shape education today.
From leadership strategies to policy discussions—and everything in between—GAEL UnscriptED is your go-to source for candid conversations that make an impact. No scripts. No fluff. Just real talk from those leading the way in Georgia’s schools.
GAEL UnscriptED
Women in Leadership with Cindy Flesher and Gina Linder
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The hardest part of school leadership isn’t the schedule or the spreadsheets—it’s standing in front of people you care about and making calls that keep kids first, even when you don’t have every answer. We sit down with two seasoned leaders—one who rose from kindergarten teacher to deputy superintendent, another who went from coaching girls’ basketball (and Friday nights under the lights) to guiding an over-capacity high school—to talk about the moves that matter and the missteps that taught them more.
We dig into the art of “I don’t know, yet.” Not the bluff, but the confident pause that buys time to get it right. You’ll hear how publicly owning a failed initiative strengthened faculty trust, why aligning with district vision is non-negotiable, and how to message mandates without losing credibility. We also explore the benefits and pitfalls of leading in the same building where you taught—where trust comes preloaded but accountability cuts closer—and the unglamorous skill of having hard conversations with people you like.
Along the way, we tackle gender, presence, and confidence, with candid stories about being the only woman in the room and the family wisdom that steadied shaky hands at graduation. We spotlight the role of professional networks and mentorship—associations, peer circles, and sharp colleagues who turn isolation into insight—and we end with actionable advice for emerging women leaders: keep learning, stay off the social media minefield, pick a mantra that filters every decision, and protect your life outside of school so you can lead well inside it.
Subscribe for more candid leadership stories, share this with a colleague who needs a lift, and leave a review with the mantra that guides your toughest decisions. Your voice helps other leaders find the support they need.
Meet the Hosts and Guests
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Gale Unscripted, where leadership meets learning and real conversations drive real impact. I'm Ben Wiggins, Executive Director of Gale. Join us as we go beyond the headlines with Georgia's top education leaders. Let's elevate the conversation. Good day, Gale members. We're here today, back for another episode of Gale Unscripted, and we have two phenomenal guests with us. We've got Cindy Flesher from right here at our Gale organization, and we also have Gina Linder, who is a former uh school employee and high school principal, now works for varsity brands.
Career Paths Into Leadership
SPEAKER_00But they're here today to talk to us about women in leadership. And both of these ladies have had a fantastic career. I can't wait to hear all of the great things they're going to share with our Gill members today. We're going to kick it off and let Cindy begin by introducing herself and telling us just briefly about herself, followed by Gina.
SPEAKER_01Well, I am glad to be here today and share some thoughts about women and leadership. My experience, I started with being in the classroom teaching in kindergarten and first grade primarily for the first eight years of my career. Then I became an assistant principal for instruction at the current elementary school that I was teaching at. So I was promoted within the school and then eventually became promoted as principal at that same school, which was Centerville Elementary in Houston County School District. Once I was there, I was at Centerville probably about 13 years total with my principal experience, teaching, and assistant principal experience. Went to the central office. So I worked with all of the elementary principals, supporting them, encouraging them, and dealt with all of the problems in each district. Parents, policies, all of those kinds of things. That was a very challenging role that I was in, and uh only lasted there one year before becoming the deputy superintendent for the last seven years of my career, uh, where my the uh responsibilities that I had were human resources, technology, and professional learning for the district.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Gina?
SPEAKER_03Yes, I'm Gina Linder. I'm originally from Blue Ridge, Georgia. Um I played basketball through college, and so I went into my uh teaching career as wanting to be a girls' basketball coach. And so um after I finished college, played through college, I worked at Chatuga County High School for four years as an assistant girls' basketball coach, but I also coached football while I was at Chatuga High School, and that would have been around 1994, 95, 96 range when I was coaching football. And there's nothing like a Friday night under the lights on the sidelines, that is for sure. Um, after that, I moved to Murray County High School where I continue coaching girls' basketball, teaching English language arts through all of that. Um when I decided it was time for me to move out of the coaching world, I applied in the middle of a year for an assistant middle school position and got that job mid-year. And the principal in the spring of that year at the middle school took the HR position, and I became the principal at that middle school. I was principal there at the middle school for a year and then was moved up to become the high school principal at uh Murray County High School, where there were 2,300 students. And at the time we had 16 outdoor learning cottages and um entrances and exits all over the building, and the building was built to hold about 1,500 students. So uh, and then I retired three years ago. Congratulations. Thank you. We're all three retirements the big smiles on the faces. Yes, and the lack of not so much stress this time of year. So um, yes, then I retired and I do consulting work with varsity brands and uh also with a company called CRI now, and then I do some still stay connected and do some work with Gail and GASSP.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. Gina and I served on the GASSP board for years uh back in our previous lives as high school principals. Uh so why don't we start off maybe by talking? You know, both of you came through the ranks in in unique ways. I think our members are probably looking up Chituga County's football uh record.
SPEAKER_03I will say I was the only coach I worked with the kickers and did some conditioning, and I was the only coach that had an athlete get a scholarship uh one of those years.
SPEAKER_00Serious street credit going on today for one Gina Linder. Uh but you heard kind of their path through education. Cindy was in the same building as a teacher, then an assistant principal, and then the principal. And there's a lot of pros and cons with that. I can't wait to hear some of that story. And then Gina went from the middle school and actually graduated with your eighth graders up to ninth grade. So that's kind of unique too. So why don't you talk to us about those first leadership jobs, positions that you got? And what did you do? What were your thought processes going into those? And a great question to talk about is how did you handle all of the questions you get as a leader when you didn't know the answers immediately? Maybe, maybe talk about those things a little bit. Cindy, why don't you kick us off?
First Leadership Roles and Uncertainty
SPEAKER_01I remember distinctly um after I was named assistant principal for instruction at Centerville Elementary. I happened to be uh going to some kind of professional learning event with our uh director of professional learning for the district, Frankie Ross. And I said, Frankie, you know, I just people are always asking me questions. I don't know all the answers. What do I do? Her advice to me was fake it till you make it. Uh but she explained further on that. It wasn't just a give an answer, you make it up, you know, and and go with something that's incorrect or wrong. Instead of that, just telling the person, um, hey, you know, I don't know the exact answer to that, but I'm gonna find out and I'll get back with you. Um but be confident still in everything that you do and and the decisions that you're making, but so that you can fake it until you make it. But you have that time a lot of times, unless it's a crisis situation, you don't have to give a person an answer right then. Just say, you know what, hold on a minute, and I'll get you the right answer for that.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. Gina?
SPEAKER_03I think that was one of the biggest pieces of advice that I received was that you do not have to provide an answer immediately unless there is a crisis. I mean, you have to, as an administrator, think on your feet and you have to be quick with some things, but there are a number of things that you can just think through, find the correct answers. Um, and then an experience I had, we had made a decision to start making some changes and implement some things, and one of those ideas was a complete disaster. I mean, it just was. And we were making gains and progress, and there was so much positive energy in the building, and then this just did not work. And I got up in front of the faculty and I said, Who made that decision? Who was it that made that decision that we were going to try this? And I think just helping them understand that you're human, like they are, and you're not always gonna know the answer. It's impossible to always know the answer. And it is okay to say, I don't know, give me give me some time and I'll get back with you. But it's also a good thing to tell them, and if I haven't gotten back with you in a couple of days, email me. Come by and remind me because you are going to be so busy and so overwhelmed that you might forget to follow up with them.
SPEAKER_00So that's great advice. I think it's good reminders for our Gale members out there that may be new leaders. Uh your people know that you don't have all the answers. They know that this is your first job or first position as a principal or as an assistant principal or at the district office. They're okay with you not knowing all of the answers. Uh they will respect you when you're honest with them and when you go to the right people to get those answers. I think that's just phenomenal advice. Talk to us a little bit. You know, there there may be some Gale members out there that are either brand new in their roles or they're aspiring to be an assistant principal or principal or district office. And talk to them about what are some any unique challenges or experiences that you've faced as a female leader at the school or district level.
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't feel like I've faced any challenges just because I'm a female. The job itself is challenging, whether you're male, female, or whatever. It just is challenging and it's hard for anybody. Um, and I think um, you know, when I came through as a as a leader in education, um women before me had already kind of broken through uh that glass ceiling. Uh, and so there were plenty of women in leadership, especially in Houston County, where I spent most of my career. And so that door had already been open, and I didn't really feel like I I didn't feel like there was anything I had to do differently or better, or you know, than my male counterparts or anything to get a job. And and I, you know, one of my biggest influences in my life is my mom, and uh she was always uh such a positive person, still is a very positive person. But one of the things she used to tell me was all the time, and it's been ingrained in me, is anything boys can do, girls can do better. And uh so that's how I thought it was. I thought that was like
Owning Mistakes and Building Trust
SPEAKER_01a Bible verse or something. That was that's the rule of law. So I I never really, you know, saw myself as any different than anybody else, and didn't I don't I can't think of a single child unique challenge because I've been a female leader.
SPEAKER_03And I'm pretty much the same way. I didn't really feel like any of my challenges were simply because I was a female leader. Like you said, there were plenty of women leaders ahead of us who were who were breaking those ceilings and and setting a good foundation for me as I came through as a female leader. But something that is funny, uh my first year as a high school principal, we were in a really large uh region classification. And the first region meeting that I went to with the athletic director was in Atlanta, and we were way in North Georgia, so we were that outlying school, and in walks a female principal with her male athletic director the entire room. I was the only female in the room, and when I walked in, things just gradually got silent, and everybody turned and looked at me. And I said, Hey, I'm Gina Winder. I'm the principal at Murray County High School. This is my assistant principal, Miss Chalcombe, and it is nice to meet all of you, and uh, we're looking forward to working with you. And so you just go in with confidence that you are in the position you are in because people believe you can make change and that you can lead and move people forward. You just always exude that confidence. Um talking about your mother, I had a I had a an amazing mother who was very strong like yours, and she would always tell me, I don't care what situation you're in, you never let anybody see that you are nervous. Your whole insides may be shaking, but little lady, you better get up there and not let them see that you are nervous. That's right. And I have taken that with me through my whole life. The very first time I spoke at graduation was in about in front of about 5,000 people. And my, I mean, my I could feel my heart beating fast. And I could hear my mother saying, You better not let them see you are nervous. And when I asked people afterward, could you tell I was nervous? They were like, uh, not at all. And at that point I said, Thank you, Mom.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Mom. So um Correct.
SPEAKER_00That's fantastic advice and fantastic tributes to both of your mothers. That that is just phenomenal. Cindy, talk a little bit about going in that transition from teacher to assistant principal to principal in the same building at Centerville Elementary. What what was what were the pros and cons of that? What were some unique challenges? How did you how did you establish yourself as the leader when just a few years prior you were one of the teachers?
SPEAKER_01Well, it wasn't an easy thing, uh, and it took time, uh, but I think uh, you know, I earned their respect, especially because I was pretty young uh to be named an assistant principal. I think I was about 33 when I was named assistant principal, and so I hadn't been in the classroom long, eight years, and all of I had only been two years at Centerville before I was hired as the AP. So they didn't really know me that well as a teacher. And um fortunately their the school improvement team was part of the interview panel, and and so they did select me. But some of the veteran teachers, you know, they were really not sure about me. But I think uh, you know, over a period of time they understood that I was there to help them, support them. Um I really never really wanted to be an administrator until I came to Houston County, and they had an assistant principal for instruction uh position that I had never seen before. It was always like an AP for discipline. That's all you know it was. And I knew I didn't want to do that. But um for instruction in Houston County, that role was to um help grow teachers, support them, uh provide professional learning for them, meeting their needs to help make them better. And that was what I wanted to do. I thought this is great.
Gender, Confidence, and Breaking Norms
SPEAKER_01It's it's um I'm I loved being in the classroom with my students, but being able to help teachers, that was just gonna be exciting for me. And so it took time um to build those relationships with them and get them to trust me and uh to to be real. And I had this misconception, or I thought, since all of my classroom teaching experience was in kindergarten and first grade, I was like, no, I can't, I am not teaching upper grades because they're you know, they're they're like grown people. I can't do that. But as I became the assistant principal and saw my same little kindergartners and first graders transition through second, third, fourth, fifth grade at my school, I realized they're just the same kids, just in bigger bodies. And so um, you know, I I I realized they're they're all just kids, and um, and probably even at the high school it's not much different. They're still kids. They're kids in bigger bodies. So some of the cons uh to that, I guess, would be, you know, they they kind of know you. You can't hide anything, you know. If you if you were not a good teacher in the classroom, they would know that uh likely um as you came into that role. But the positive things about that was I already knew where our school was and how we were performing and how much our teachers loved our kids. And so it made it an easier transition um to move into that administrative role because I had that background and knowledge, and I loved the kids, loved the parents, and we it's just it's still a very special place in my heart. Uh Centerville is um I love to go back there. We go back and visit teachers and um provide lunches for them. It's just a very special place. So um I think all in all, the uh positives or the pros outweigh the negatives on making that transition within the school.
SPEAKER_03And I I agree. I was a teacher at Murray County High School, and then I became an assistant and then uh principal at our middle school that fed into the high school for just a year and a half, and then I became the principal at the same high school where I taught. And so I definitely think way more positives because they knew me already. They I had established myself as a teacher, I'd been a department chair, I had been active on the leadership team and the school improvement team, and and I also knew that the teachers cared about the kids, and you know as teachers who's really working hard and who's high sliding out the door early, and so um there were there were just a lot of positives and because they know you and they know your work ethic and they know where your heart is, and you know where their heart is, and 99%, and I tell new leaders this all of the time 99.9% of your staff want to do what you ask them to do. And a lot of times when you're upset with them, if you just sit down and say, Hey, what were you thinking? Talk to me about this, it's gonna save you a lot of frustration and anger just by being able to sit down and have conversations. So on the other side of that, the difficult part was having to sit down with people you knew really well and have those conversations of you're not on board, let's talk about why you're not on board, and then eventually having to just let some of them go.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Though those were, you know, I had to let some people that were close friends, I I had to let them go, and um that was tough. Yeah, it was tough, but always doing what's best for kids.
SPEAKER_01And I would um agree, I think, dealing with personnel issues as a principal that came through the building. But even as a principal, you know, if you've been at a school five, you know, six, seven years, you want that culture where you feel like a family and you love each other, trust each other and all that. But sometimes you have to address things with people that um it it's just I think it gets the situation gets blurred sometimes or kind of gray. You're like, you know, is this really does this rise to the level that I really need to address or not? Um, because and I knew that realized that difference when I went to the district office and I was removed from a building, I could definitely see situations so much more clearly to say, no, we've got to address that, you gotta address that. But when you've got these people that you just know and love and having to correct them or have some of those difficult conversations, that was probably one of the hardest things I think. Um I think to do. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Awesome, awesome. Well, at this time we'd like to thank one of our partners uh with Gail, and that's Varsity Brands. They've been an outstanding partner with us for years. And we actually have Gina here today who works for Varsity Brands. So, Gina, why don't you just take a minute or two and just tell our members how how could Varsity Brands help their school or school district?
SPEAKER_03Well, Varsity Brands is all about enhancing school culture and climate, and we want to help you have the best experience uh in your building that you can possibly have for students. So Varsity Brands is the overarching company, kind of like Gail is for G A S P and G A M S P and G A E S P. And it Varsity Brands is the arching umbrella for BSN Sports that does all athletics equipment, uh, and basically anything if you turned the shoebox up and shook it out of a school, anything that would fall out we can provide. And then varsity spirit, which is the cheer, band, and dance, and provide all of the stuff for that, very connected with the um national competitions and things for dance and cheer, and then yearbook. Um so we have the yearbook that just kind of captures all those great memories. Um but one of the main things that I really like, and I made the transition to become a varsity brands impact school um toward the end of my career, which was using BSN, using Varsity Spirit, and using the Yearbook company. Uh, one of the best things about it is that with all of those companies, they have put a lot of money into developing programs like Believe in You, which is all about character ed and social emotional learning and mental health and providing support and resource materials at no cost to schools for those things. And then a student leadership
Leading Where You Taught: Pros and Cons
SPEAKER_03program and curriculum, and then SERGE program for female athletes, since we're talking about female leadership and helping those female athletes. Female athletes typically become female leaders. And so there's a curriculum there for helping mature those female athletes into leadership roles, and then uh, you know, so just a lot of money put into other things outside of just the sport and the spirit and the it's about the whole child and the whole school and the whole school culture and enhancing that school culture.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's fantastic. So if there's any Gale members out there, principals, assistant principals, athletic directors, if you'd like more information on how varsity brands could help, to certainly help you figure that out. Um, you know, you mentioned something a little while ago about the dealing with personnel issues and your school is kind of like a family. I've always felt like the role of principal is the most difficult job in a school district because you're constantly getting the push-pull from your teachers and your parents and the community and the district office. So, Cindy, since you've worked in both at the school level and the district level, talk about how principals have to go about navigating that because they they do. It's a very, very tough uh situation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the difference between the us and them. They did this to us, right, from the district office. Um, it's it's tr you it is tricky sometimes uh because you know, at the district office level, the executive cabinet to include the superintendent and maybe assistant superintendents uh, you know, may come out with an initiative for the district that's the expectation for the schools. And it may not be something that you agree with. And hopefully you're in a district where you can share any of those concerns, or maybe your district includes you in that process for initiatives for the district. Um, but somehow you've got to take that messaging from the district and make it a positive thing for your staff. And so you it's tricky sometimes to think of those things, but think about the benefits and and why we're doing this. And you may have to ask some of the people at the central office, okay, help me with my messaging uh to my school and how I can say, you know, why are we doing this? Why are we doing implementing this program, uh, this computerized program that's not even aligned to our standards, or you know, whatever it has to be. Throw those things in there. Just to kind of, you know, at least make them think a little bit too. But hopefully you have that kind of a relationship with your district office um support staff so that you can have those questions if if something really out of the norm, or you know, if it is if it's not aligned to state standards, or you know, why why are we doing it? And I agree totally with what uh Gina said earlier about putting the needs of students first, and I would highly recommend, you know, uh coming up with a school motto or mantra that you live by. Ours at Centerville was putting children first. So we kind of ran everything through that filter. Um, you know, are we gonna change the car rent pickup? Okay, what's best for kids? What not what's best for parents, not what's best for teachers, not that parents and teachers aren't important, but the whole reason we're there is for students and trying to do that. So even if it's a message from district office um that we're having to share and uh tell with our staff, try to, you know, frame that with your mission uh to do that. Um parents and staff, uh it helped me to have that um to have that motto of putting children first, because if they came to me with a problem asking, well, why did why did you do that this way? I can say, well, you know, our goal is to put children first, put safety first, put instruction first. Um, and so that just helped me to have that as a guiding force um with all of my issues that came up.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And our motto was student success, no exceptions, no excuses. And um our superintendent, Dr. Vicky Reed, was that was her whole focus was what does this have to do with student success? And if it's not going to help them be successful, then we're not doing it. I mean, so I was very fortunate to grow up under a leadership model that uh demanded that we put students first across the system. So I was very fortunate not to really face too many of those challenges. Um she was very open to productive discussions. And there were a few times she her career was elementary and middle, and there were a few times she and I had to we just agreed to disagree and we still a la still laugh about some of that now. We had to agree to disagree, but we still had a both had a huge amount of respect for what the others what the other was trying to accomplish and what you the message that you were trying to send as the importance of what we were doing. I was fighting for my students in my school. She was fighting for the whole system, and that sometimes doesn't look the same. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, and and that's why when I was at the district office in HR and sometimes having to be the grim reaper at the beginning of the year and taking teachers and moving them here and there. Um trying to explain to the principals why we do this and how we, you know, look at the data and how many kids are showing up once we see the whites of their eyes and those kind of things. So um, you know, just from my principal experience, it helped, it would have helped me had district office on some of the things that they pushed down, is told us their why for it. So I tried to implement that as I became a district office uh leader. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think that's great insight for our listeners uh and viewers. Uh, you're talking about that communication from the principal level to the district level. And I think it's important for our district level leaders to hear that comment that Cindy's given there. Uh the example that Gina gave that when Vicki Reed was a superintendent at Murray County, they could have those open dialogue and speak very clearly to each other and and work out solutions. So very, very important.
SPEAKER_03Let me add this, Ben. One thing as the principal, part of our jobs are to um lead the vision of the superintendent and the board of education. That's right. And so when I would leave the office, I went back, like you said, and sometimes even if in your heart you don't feel it, you go back and you sell it to your faculty. And then you hold them accountable for it. Because as a system, you're not going to be successful if that's not the mentality of the whole leadership in the system. That's right. That's right.
SPEAKER_00It's way better to share your mind and your thoughts in a professional way, in a professional manner. Yes. But when you walk out of that office, the district's vision is what we're doing.
SPEAKER_01It is. And
Personnel Decisions and Hard Conversations
SPEAKER_01do not ever go on social media and say, I cannot believe it. No.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Yeah. Or even comments to your staff. Right.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_00You think I can tell Cindy and she won't tell anyone.
SPEAKER_01No, no.
SPEAKER_00Before I walked out of the room, Cindy's told three people. So yeah, I mean you have to you've got to be mindful of that. Absolutely. That's that's part of it.
SPEAKER_03It's a lonely seat. It is. It's a lonely seat sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Well, why don't we talk about that? Leadership sometimes people say is a lonely position. So as a principal district office, talk about that and talk about how you combated that and maybe some relationships you had outside of the school and or district to help with that.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'll I will say one of the best things and we had talked about this earlier, um the support of being involved in GASSP and with the Gail organization and getting the professional development with leadership and coming to conferences where you were with people who were fighting the same battles, facing the same issues. And so you could network and you you uh had people who were going through what you were going through and you didn't even realize there were other people out there struggling with it. So I would encourage you to get involved in GASSP, GAMSP, GAESP, the Gail organization, come to the conferences and build those networking groups because when you are in that lonely seat and it's after school hours and it has been a terrible day and you were facing challenges the next day and you need someone to talk to, who better to talk to than somebody else who is also sitting in that lonely seat.
SPEAKER_00Great advice. Any follow-up to that, Cindy?
SPEAKER_01No, I'll just say, you know, we uh Gina mentioned the three uh principal or assistant principal um affiliates, but there are many other affiliates. We have seven affiliates. I'm not sure if I can name all of them. Uh GSSA for uh school superintendents, um GACES for the curriculum and instruction supervisors. We've got uh S stage. Um I don't know what it's like. Let's see.
SPEAKER_00This is unscripted, man. Remember, this question was not on the sheet.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Uh and GASPA for the school personnel administrators, G Case, G Case uh for the special education administrators, and GEFA. Um, and I was a member of GACES, GASPA, and GAESP uh throughout my uh professional career, and all of them provided me what I needed at the time that I was in those roles.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I I can remember when I went to my first Gale conference, it was at Jekyll Island, Summer Gale. I saw the number of people and I thought, what am I doing here? And I will never fit in. I will never, I'm not good enough to be here, I'm not smart enough, all the things are not enough. And um, you know, when you just keep coming and you build that network, the next thing you know, you have an unbelievable professional network that you can call on people and share ideas and ask for advice. So that's that's just phenomenal. But let's talk about your professional mentors or people that really uh helped call out your strengths in your career. Start with Gina.
SPEAKER_03Vicki Reed, Dr. Vicky Reed would have been uh one of my first. She was very confident. I had coached her daughters in basketball. And um she was when
Partner Spotlight: Varsity Brands
SPEAKER_03anytime I was hesitant, she was just like my mom with saying, Oh yes, you can. You you know, when she first said, Okay, now you're gonna you get the print principal's job at the middle school. It's like I don't even know what I don't know. And she was like, and you will figure it out and you will do great. I mean, she just had a level of confidence in me to put me out of my comfort zone and then support me to help me succeed. She was always very student focused, she was thick skinned, and she did not care to fight the hard battles. And it was just a perfect fit for me because that is kind of my my my mindset as well. I don't care to work hard, I have thick thick skin, and I don't care to fight the battles. And so she was there to support all of those difficult decisions. So by far, uh Vicky Reed was was one. Also, um Dr. Allison Oxford. She was part of um part of Gail. She was a special education coordinator, part of the all of the Gail organizations was president at one point of um the special G Case. G Case. Yes, I couldn't think about it. I had Gaseus on my mind. But she was the president of of G Case and I did not have a lot of experience with the law when it came to special education. And she was our special education director, and she was sharp and she knew her stuff. And there would be things she would be saying, we're going to do this, and I would say, No, we're not. I don't understand why we're doing this, you know. And she would sit down with me, and she really was a great uh uh friend. She ended up, I mean, she and I are still really good friends, but she helped guide me through learning special ed law beyond what you learn in your degree and really understanding how to work with the population and how to help them grow and how to find different areas of things. And so I really, really look up to Dr. Oxford as I was learning and growing in the special education world.
SPEAKER_01Since gosh, I've just been sitting here thinking of all the many people that have contributed and encouraged me along the way, and there have been so many. Um, and to just to name out a few, it's very difficult, but um, I'll attempt to do that. There's uh a group of ladies, there's four, there were four principals, elementary or primary school principals that were principals when I was a principal, that we just kind of clicked, had the same philosophies, um just had a lot in common. And um we would get together uh for breakfast every time before uh a superintendent's meeting, and then we would go have lunch every time after a superintendent's meeting. And it was just a great time for us to uh get together and talk through our frustrations or problem solved together. But those wonderful people, I'm still we have a beach babe text group. Um and the reason we're the beach packs is because one of them she has a beach condo that we go to twice a year and we hang out together still. So that would be Melanie Loggins, Linda Horn, Andrea McGee, and Kim Halstead. So that is awesome. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yes, you had a PLC right there at Helsing before anybody even here. That's awesome. Well, as we wrap up, maybe one more question for each of you. What advice would you have for young female leaders out
Navigating District Mandates and Messaging
SPEAKER_00there that are getting ready? Maybe this is their first year on the job, or they're they're getting close to getting that first job. What what advice would you have for them?
SPEAKER_03I would I would say keep students first, and you have to have a thick skin. Um, I would also encourage you to stay off social media and not look at all of those comments that they are posting about you on social media as you become uh more of a decision maker in the leadership roles because you will drown in some of their comments and you can't argue back, you can't fight back with that. So um, but always keep students first, stay strong in your values and your commitments, and realize you've got to really have a thick skin. And then the last thing I would say is never ever stop learning for yourself. Never stop your own growth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I used to say if you ever feel like you know it all, you know you're there, you need to retire because you never ever get to that point where you know it all.
SPEAKER_03Or that you just don't want to learn anything else.
SPEAKER_01Or try something different. Right. If you don't want to do that, it's it's time. Yeah. Yep. Um, I guess what I would say to um, it's really more than just to female leaders, any leaders, but uh to remember to take time for yourself and always strive for that work-life balance. It's very difficult to do because that uh principal role, it been mentioned earlier, it's one of the hardest jobs, I think, in the district, but it's also one of the best jobs. Just the best, absolutely best and most rewarding. It is wonderful. And I hope you can enjoy it while you're in that role because it is just it is such a wonderful thing. But um take care of yourself and you know, don't stay up there at school till 11 o'clock at night and go home and come back at four o'clock in the morning. And uh because if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of other people, the other people that you need to take care of, which are your staff, your students, your family. And uh your number one priority is family, and that was what I tried to teach uh my teachers too, you know, that were workaholics and thought they had to be there, you know, early in the morning, late, late at night. Um, because the thing is, if you're there working till 11 o'clock at night and you fall over dead at your desk, how long will it take? Um, probably the next morning. The school district will have your job posted or an interim named. They're gonna miss you and they're gonna love you still, and they're gonna say, I'm so sorry. She was such a good leader. But um, your family's gonna miss you. So, you know, spend that time that make that a priority to be with your family when you can and um take care of yourself. Go get those facials and massages. Do that. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic advice. And thank both of you. Thank you for your wonderful careers. Uh, thank you for continuing in public education in different roles. Uh, y'all y'all are phenomenal. I look up to both of you. I've learned a lot. Uh I learn a lot from Cindy every day here at Gail.
SPEAKER_01What not to do?
SPEAKER_00Speaking of continuing to learn, you'd be amazed at the things Cindy pushes me uh to learn with AI JatGPT. It is, it really is. Uh, we try to stay on the cutting edge as well. But thank you for joining us on this episode of Gail Unscript.
