GAEL UnscriptED: S2:E3 | TRS Part #2: Retirement Math That Actually Matters

Ready to turn career choices into retirement confidence? We sat down with Georgia’s Teacher Retirement System leadership to decode the rules that matter most: how promotions interact with anti-spiking safeguards, why your highest 24 months drive your benefit, and when a June paycheck might outweigh an earlier COLA. We walk through clean, real-world scenarios so you can compare April 1, June 1, and July 1 retirements without guesswork—and understand the trade-offs.

We also dive into the workforce challenge facing Georgia schools and the role TRS plays as both a recruitment magnet and a retention anchor. You’ll hear what an independent audit found about return-to-work programs, how new bills could expand opportunities without harming the fund, and what the average retiree’s path looks like before stepping back into the classroom. If you’ve wondered about the “25 years” headline, we set the record straight: eligibility to return is not a shortcut to full retirement.

Two constants rise to the top: COLAs and security. Georgia’s long record of cost-of-living adjustments—prefunded through member contributions—helps retirees keep pace with inflation while driving billions into local economies. Just as important is protecting what you’ve earned. Only about half of members have current beneficiary information, and that gap has real consequences. We cover the quick fixes: log in annually, update beneficiaries, and turn on multi-factor authentication. Along the way, you’ll hear stories of leadership, community impact, and why professional networks like GAEL shape better decisions over an entire career.

If this conversation helped you plan your next step, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a quick review telling us the one question you still want answered. Your feedback shapes future episodes.

Chapters

• 0:04 Welcome And Part Two Setup
• 0:46 How Raises Affect Your TRS Benefit
• 4:48 TRS As A Recruitment And Retention Engine
• 9:18 Return To Work: Laws, Audits, Impact
• 15:41 Clearing Up The 25 vs 30 Years Rule
• 18:51 Best Month To Retire And First COLA
• 24:00 Why COLAs Matter And How They’re Funded
• 28:15 Beneficiaries: Update Them Or Risk Loss
• 33:01 TRS Priorities: Access, Security, MFA
• 38:45 Leadership, Legacy, And Community Impact
• 46:06 The Value Of GAEL And Professional Networks
• 49:55 Closing Thanks And Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:04

Welcome to Gale Unscripted, where leadership meets learning and real conversations drive real impact. I'm Ben Wiggins, Executive Director of Gale. Join us as we go beyond the headlines with Georgia's top education leaders. Let's elevate the conversation. Welcome back, Gail family, to part two of our episode of Gale Unscripted with TRS. We've got Dr. Buster Evans and Dr. Jason Branch joining us back for part two. And we're going to jump right into this next part here with a question. We kind of mentioned at the end of part one, Dr. Evans, you talked about if you, you know, deciding on what year to retire, and you talked about if you get a significant raise in a position. Let's say a member goes from assistant principal to principal or principal to assistant superintendent or becomes a superintendent. Talk a little bit to our members about what the magic is in that raise and what amount uh maybe the neighborhood and how many more years you need to work at that particular level to be able to draw the retirement.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22

Okay, uh, you know, the wonderful thing that we've been able to experience in recent years is that teachers have been getting some salary increases. There was a period of time following the Great Recession and during the Great Recession where school systems didn't have a lot of money. And adding to personnel costs was a challenge, but uh we've been able to make up some time around that. We uh it it for a protection for the retirement system, there are laws in place that we call anti-spiking provisions. In other words, it's if you have a retirement system, then and somebody gets a big increase right toward the end of their career, but most of their career they didn't pay it, pay in the contributions, neither from their employer nor their employee. That would be a disadvantage to the retirement system financially, thus undermining uh the sustainability of their retirement system. So the reality of it is uh there we we we do have salary caps over a period of time that that go up. The basic formula is two and a half percent plus the amount of state increase for that particular year for each year that goes up. And uh so in other words, typically that number is gonna look to be about 5%. If you get a number larger than that, uh it the the way the formula works out, as long as you work three years at that higher salary, it will then that that cap sort of goes away. Uh the thing that you have to look at for, you know, you're you know, hopefully you know that you're gonna get an increase every year. Uh there's almost no way to prevent leaving a little money on the table. But there are a number of us who've made decisions in life. We had an opportunity to do something else. If we'd have stayed another year or two, we might have gotten uh a little bit larger of a pension benefit. But the reality of it is we were ready to do something else, we had an opportunity to do something else, thus it became very timely for us to go ahead and make that decision. These anti-spiking uh provisions are important for our retirement system to make sure that the system is not abused. And um I think it's a good thing, and um it again, it reflects the wisdom in ensuring the sustainability of a retirement system, not just for the people like us who are getting a retirement benefit on this podcast, but for that new teacher that's beginning today, so that 30 years from now, Dr. Jason Branch can guarantee that new teacher that that retirement benefit is going to be there for them. And that's one thing that they don't have to worry about during their career.

unknown: 4:10

Great point.

SPEAKER_01: 4:11

Ben, I just add one thing to that. That's not a mysterious number. That is a number that is shared to our employers and to our members uh each year. And so, you know, it's a good thing again to be informed and look at that as you're making those decisions. Did you get a 7% raise, but it's a 5%? What are your you know, highest 24 months is what the retirement's going to be built off of. And so, but those months have to fall into that percentage increase. And so it again, information is power there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:46

Good great points there. You know, Senate Resolution 237 by Senator Billy Hickman um basically charged Dr. Jody Barrow, PSC, to look at some ways to help with teacher and leader recruitment and retention. And I know uh Dr. Barrow shared that one of the first groups he insisted be a part of that large group of entities and government agencies working on this was the teacher retirement system. So, why don't y'all talk a little bit about how TRS helps in that area of what Senate Resolution 237 is all about?

SPEAKER_01: 5:24

Well, first and foremost, I want to thank Senator Hickman for bringing this very important topic uh to the forefront and uh charging all of our agencies to work with that. We know uh through the good work of the PSC that there's over 5,000 vacancies in our teaching uh positions right now. And so we need to continue to work to not only recruit educators, but how do we retain? So uh it was a powerful opportunity. I know that Gail and many of our other organizations were a part of that work as well, and so to be able to come together and have fruitful conversations around that and really to hear from almost every entity in those conversations the importance of the teacher retirement system of Georgia as a retention tool for members and a recruitment tool for educators, I think was extremely, extremely important. You know, one of the things that we know through research is that the average age of a retiree for teachers' retirement system is the age of 60. The average age of a retiree in our nation is 67. So there's lots of opportunities to put in front of uh younger folks as they come forward out of college and they're considering opportunities to say, look at the different things that you could do with your life and the retirement system there. So I think it was important work, uh, pleased with the recommendations that came forth and the conversations uh that highlighted the importance of public education in our state, uh, but also, you know, recruiting and retaining teachers. One of the things that uh Dr. Evans and I worked on was also uh reviewing a marketing campaign, an opportunity to better highlight and educate those who are coming into education or considering job opportunities that don't know about the teacher retirement system and the the great benefits of how do you take that 22-year-old who's coming out and help them understand the value of that defined benefit, uh, not defined contribution, but defined benefit that we all value so much once we walk through that finish line, I think was uh is extremely important, and I'm excited about where we are in that work and the conversations that I think will highlight the importance of teacher retirement system even more as we look at how do we not only retain, I think it's been a good conversation for years about retention, but how do we recruit using that great tool?

SPEAKER_02: 8:11

Great point. Uh the TRS system, it's so fantastic. I've got a my brother-in-law and sister-in-law are both retired colonels, and they are they are both jealous of the of our retirement system. They have a wonderful retirement system, but let's just say they don't the Cola threw them for a curveball. They they want as they said, you get what? Uh so anyway, uh great retirement system. Jason just mentioned 5,000 teacher vacancies across the state. Uh many of our teachers uh have already returned to the classroom in a 49% position. And with some recent legislation a few years ago, many more have returned back at 100%. So why don't you two just talk a little bit about your thoughts on those two return to work bills that are out there and how those are going to help uh fill those teacher vacancies with some good, strong veteran educators.

SPEAKER_00: 9:16

Okay, a couple of things here. First and foremost, this provision for return to work full-time is something that we've had in the past. Uh and then it was repealed in, I think it was 2012. Uh, and it came back again about uh four years ago with a little bit more restriction than what the previous bill back in 2012. The previous bill that was repealed in 2012 allowed basically teachers and administrators in some capacities to come back and work full-time. Um there were some people who felt like that that was too generous. There were some people who felt like that there were some abuses. There were some cases of just, and then we had the Great Recession. And then all of y'all were in school administration at that point in time. We quit hiring people. And so we had people who were graduating from the University of Georgia, Georgia Southern, Balash, all these teacher, teacher uh education pros couldn't get jobs. And so it was like we we didn't have the same issues that we had when they repealed the law. Roll the clock forward 10 years, and then we do have these shortages. With the first passage of House Bill 385, I think was a great step in the right direction. Uh, there were those who remembered uh from whence we had come with the previous bill, and they maybe didn't want to go too far too fast. And so we began with critical needs areas as they were defined by uh the Each Region District without getting too deep into the weeds. That bill worked out pretty well, but it sunsets as of July 1, 2026. Uh so we've got we do have, as Ben has mentioned, a couple of bills that have been introduced, uh slightly different, that would allow for return to work. And um Dr. Branch and I have been working very closely over the last uh actually working on nearly for the last eight or nine months now, looking at those bills. And um, and we've been actually been on a couple of podcasts or two and had conversations about that. I don't think um I don't think either one of these bills necessarily is perfect, but I think that there are pros and cons of those. And I'll let Jason kind of maybe add his thoughts about what those may look like.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

Yeah, I I think number one uh important to note is that uh House Bill 385 did call for an audit of the um return to work and the the impact, and and so what we saw from the uh TRS system was no negative impact as it as it's currently uh in law. And so one of the interesting facts is that uh the audit revealed that retirees are the average retiree that is returning to work has uh been retired for about four and a half years. So uh oftentimes these are not uh retirees that are have been incentivized to retire and then to return to work. They have retired, still see a need, still feel like they have something to give and return to do so. Um both bills uh do authorize the return. They're both a little bit different, as Dr. Evans has said, and they're out for actuarial review right now to determine you know the cost to the state, uh, any impact to the school system in and of itself. Uh, but we're encouraged uh by the conversation and see and understand the need and know that oftentimes our retirees still have much to give. And so we look forward to continuing to be a part of those conversations. One thing I will say that we've addressed is that uh Senate Bill 150 does talk about uh allowing return to work for retirees to have 25 years of service. Um that was instituted because our average retiree is age 60 with 25.5 years of credible service. Currently, in law, you have to have 30 years of credible service to return to work. And so the thought of the bill author was that you are missing a portion of retirees that could be able to come back and assist. What it does not do, that we've clarified multiple times, the sponsors clarified, and our friends from various organizations have clarified, it does not allow you to retire with 25 years of credible service for full retirement without penalty. It does not change the law. So you will still need to be a full retiree either age 60 with the years of service or have retired. But um, the House bill, I believe it's 372, um, does still hold the 30 years of credible service. Uh both do expand a little bit the opportunities, allow those opportunities to be reviewed either uh just statewide, it's just open, as in Senate Bill 150. Uh anyone could return. Uh in 372, it allows the local districts to uh be more specific in that. Uh, but uh as Dr. Evans said, we know there's still work to be done uh with that, but from the uh current conversations we've been a part of, we're encouraged for our retirees to potentially continue to have that opportunity.

SPEAKER_02: 14:55

Good great information. So make sure that you heard Gill members, because we do, we get a lot of questions about that too. Senate Bill 150 does not hint to indicate point toward uh a new retirement of 25 years in Georgia. That's not it at all. Take Jason and I, for example. We both retired with 28 years and two years of sick leave. What that would do is if that bill passed, opened the door that we could come back uh and teach English or social studies if those were high needs in those areas. Very, very good point. The next question is is something that I've heard a lot throughout my career is is there a particular month that's better to retire or important to retire? And what constitutes a year? Uh, you know, some people still think it's uh you got to work 12 months for that year. Uh so talk a little bit about what constitutes a year uh for a uh TRS service and what do the different months mean if I retire March 1st, April 1st, May 1st, what's the difference? And does that have an impact on the Cola as well? Or your first cola?

SPEAKER_00: 16:07

Yeah, well Ben, it does. And uh your question about what constitutes constitutes a year sort of depends. A year for someone in the university system is eight months, a year for someone in the um in a regular K-12 system would be nine months. Now, but that would that goes from the beginning of the school year, which typically means that many of them would be eligible to retire as of April 1, uh, if they chose to, because they've got their full year of service for that year. They don't get any extra credit working beyond that. And it's just like an administrator who does who works 12 months. You're only gonna get one year. But if you work in the school system and work 10 months, you're still gonna get one year. Um so uh but but whether one retires before July 1 or after July 1 does make a difference in in terms of when they're gonna receive their first cost of living adjustment. So the basic determination is for those people who retire, let's say April, May, April 1, May 1, or June 1, they're retiring before July 1. So they would be eligible for their first cost of living adjustment in January of the following retirement date. Okay. For those who retire as of July 1, they are not eligible for their first retirement of for their COLA until the next July 1. That is the way the law was written. And um, so we do see people making decisions about what their retirement may look like. Some have kind of, you know, made that decision too late. Uh there are pros and cons. First of all, if you're under contract to work all the way through a year, you know, there's some ethical belief that you need to stay and work that contract. Uh, the other side of that is you continue to work net, you actually are earning more money and earning more money that goes toward your retirement calculation, theoretically. So um, so it does make a little bit of a difference. And that's a quick, quick rundown of it. Jason, I don't know if I got answered that to your satisfaction since you are now the executive director, but you clean up anything that I messed up.

SPEAKER_01: 18:33

I think you I think you did a wonderful job. I would I would say that as you go through the counseling conversations, an important thing to note is that you can ask for these various scenarios and see, you know, okay, if I retire June 1, what would it look like if I retired July 1? Um, you know, various different friends and colleagues that have retired have looked at it different ways. Uh to Buster's uh point, they look at it and say, Well, I am continuing to earn, so maybe I want to work that month of June because when I run the numbers, it looks to make more sense to me uh to work through the month of June than and retire and perhaps miss that first cola to gain more uh a higher number for those 24 months. Uh, but it really is individual. I know I keep saying this, look at it, but you know, the thing to know is that you don't you're not limited in the scenarios that you can review with our counselors, and so you can sit down when the time is right and say, okay, if I retired effective April 1, if I retired effective June 1, if I retired effective July 1, what would that look like to my benefit? And how does that work? And I think that's an important thing to note. Yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_02: 19:56

All right, we talked we I brought up the topic of COLA. Uh why don't you too expound a little bit about COLA and why it's such a tremendous advantage to our members in retirement?

SPEAKER_01: 20:07

Well, I think certainly the the Cola is is an outstanding piece. I I tell the story that uh when I was uh received the honor to be able to serve as executive director, the first text that I received was from my mother-in-law, who is a retired high school principal, uh, and she she said, Congratulations, make sure you keep the colas coming. Uh and so, you know, we we know the importance of the cola. I was reviewing uh a document this morning. I believe that we have uh 97 consecutive colas uh since the year of uh July 1, 1977, and that colas were instituted uh in 1969 for TRS to do exactly what you would think, you know, to help offset the the cost of inflation to our members uh as they go forward. So I I think it's uh it's a very important piece. It is it is funded through our system, and I think that's an important piece as we look at uh the contributions, the investments as we go forward. But also, uh I'll speak here just briefly, and I'm sure Dr. Evans will have some some points that that I'll miss. But one of the things to keep in mind is not only does that cola uh benefit our members from a standpoint of providing more resources to them uh year to year, but the retirement system in general uh has nine billion dollar impact to the state of Georgia, the latest numbers. And we're gonna we're gonna have some updated numbers in January. Look forward to sharing those, but but uh at last report uh the impact of the state of Georgia from the retirement system. Cola to be included in that is nine billion dollars, and we have on our website the local economic impact for every county in the state. Um, something Dr. Evans instituted, I believe, when he was uh leading the organization in a powerful, powerful document that speaks to not only the importance of the retirement system to our members, but to our state and that colour to our members. So the local economy.

SPEAKER_02: 22:25

I think that's a great point. I was on a uh webinar this morning with some superintendents, and uh one of them asked if TRS had something like that. And I was able to share uh that you do have that study. Uh so thank you, Dr. Evans, for starting that. Uh, they were talking about the economic impact teachers have, educators in their community, uh, but also those retirees because yeah, yeah, huge Ben, you're right, huge economic impact.

SPEAKER_00: 22:51

That money that's paid out in retirement benefits just doesn't go run down a hole somewhere. It's spent in local restaurants and doctor's offices and church offering plate space taxes and helps provide a set standard of living not only for those retirees, but for the entire community. I do want to add one thing that Jason uh to Jason's answer as it relates to the cost of living adjustment. Uh, a lot of people are maybe don't don't recognize this, but this COLA is pre-funded. How is it pre-funded? It is pre-funded by a higher contribution rate by the employee. I'll give you an example. The teacher's retirement system cost of living, I mean, excuse me, uh, employee contribution is set in law to be between five and six percent. Uh, so it's currently at six percent and it's been six percent for many years. Compare that to some other state retirement systems, their employee contribution rate is 1.5 percent. So, bottom line is when we we we we recognize that there are some other state agencies that do not, or retirement systems that that do not have this built-in cola, our teachers have paid for that cola over the years, and that does not need to be lost in the conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 24:09

Great point. Great point. All right, let's talk a little bit about beneficiaries. I know that um that's an important topic. Um, you would think those those are updated and taken care of. Uh, but maybe talk to our members out there about the importance of having their beneficiaries updated, especially as life may change or happen.

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

Well, I think it's a very important conversation, and and many, many areas of of these topics are are things that we just aren't always comfortable talking about. We all we we you know we we're gonna plan for that on a different day, and we all know that we do not control uh what our day looks like and how our day is going to end, um, and that tragedy does does occur. And this uh retirement system is set forward and and and in our founding documents talks about uh allowing our retirees to retire with dignity. And as Dr. Evans says, those contributions, those efforts, that is the member's money. And so we want to ensure that the member and the member's family receive what they worked so hard to earn. And again, in our documents, it talks about the retirement uh benefit being deferred compensation, and so we we think it's extremely important. Uh sadly, only about 50% of our members uh currently have beneficiaries updated, and it's a it's an easy process. Uh it's something that we are continuing, have been for your several years, um working with our employers, working with our school systems, our members. Anytime I talk, I you heard me yesterday talk about it, um, the importance of updating those beneficiaries. And you know, when we talk about plan design and we say, well, 60% of our uh members may uh take the maximum plan, so they say, Well, how do I need a beneficiary? Well, there's still money there should you pass before the monies that you put forward in the system are depleted through your benefit. And so really it impacts every single member despite what uh option you choose, and certainly something that uh I know there have been some really sad stories over the years uh in terms of people believing that that benefit was going to continue for them and um having to be told that that did not occur, or uh on a on a lighter note, perhaps, um you know, your partner or spouse right now may not be your partner or spouse uh later on, and if you have not updated your benefit, those individuals in your life that may believe they're getting that benefit uh do not get that benefit. And uh whoever is listed, we are required by law, that is the beneficiary. So, but some some uh stories out there that uh you know I've I've been on for 41 days, so I'm sure Dr. Evans has better stories for nine years.

SPEAKER_00: 27:32

But but you know, Jason, you do great with uh telling the stories. I I will tell we really made this a focus five and a half years ago. What what was going on? We were in the middle of COVID. And one of the things that we began to track with the teachers' retirement system was member deaths. And we saw member deaths go up. And so we also recognized during this period of time, just as Dr. Branch has pointed out, only about 50% of our people, actually, at that point, only about 40% of our our members had an updated beneficiary. I can remember very clearly two or three horror stories, and I could go on all day about this when I won't. But one in particular, there was a teacher in a metro area who died of COVID. And uh, like typically when most of us joined, he was not married when he started teaching. And so he had his mom and dad listed as beneficiary. Never changed, got married, had children, got COVID, unfortunately passed away. Well, fortunately, uh the the parents of this individual knew what the intent of their son was, and they was able to go in and make that change. And so consequently, uh his survivors were able to get that benefit. But the reality of it is uh who is down unless a person renounces that particular cover? Uh Jason's uh dinoscitic, you know, we've had people who who were do who they're they got divorced, and um somehow or the other, nobody made a change. And then lo and behold, they passed away. And the person that they intended to get their uh their retirement benefit was not the person. And so created a little created a field day for the attorneys, as I would like to say. And uh, and then I can tell just very quickly, one other scenario not too long ago. Uh, even someone who uh thought that they were going to be their their wife's beneficiary uh passed away, uh got that ready to to claim department and said, you know, sorry, you were not, you know, unfortunately, you were not listed as their beneficiary. And by law, uh as we implement and administer the retirement system, uh, who is listed as that beneficiary at that person's time of death is that person can be huge in terms of making a the the right decision and the desired decision decision for someone in their in their passing.

unknown: 30:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 30:16

So it's a great reminder, Gail members, to log into your account. Make sure that your beneficiaries are updated. Um in particular if you have any life changes, but I I think what I'm hearing is at least once a year you should be logging into your account. I always like to do it just to see the years getting added. Uh that was a fun thing for me. Jason, are there any things TRS is focusing on for this upcoming year?

SPEAKER_01: 30:41

Yeah, you know, I mean, I think as any agency, organization, entity, we we want to get better each and every day. Um, and so we talk often about sustained excellence, continuous improvement, ensuring that you know the great work that's taking place at TRS over the years continues, but how do we get even better in that work? How do we meet our members where they are? Um, you spoke to some innovations that have occurred over the years, um, you know, with with virtual counseling, uh other state offices that make it more convenient. And so we continue to look at those innovations and see what's working well and what we need to enhance or uh modify or duplicate in in other arenas. Uh, two things that we certainly uh continue to work on is the as one of the things we discussed earlier, how do we better message around beneficiaries, how do we better message around uh getting into that account and updating the things that need to be updated to ensure that you are receiving the benefits and your family members are receiving the benefits as you desire. The other thing that we certainly are continuing to monitor as any entity would is fraud. And uh how do we better protect our members? We have very limited uh challenges as it relates to that, but there are bad actors out there, and we all see that typically on a daily basis with phishing email campaigns and different items uh out there, and so we want to ensure that uh we are encouraging our members to use multi-factor authentication. So the simple form of that obviously is you know, some other means behind just logging in that then you have to get a code sent to you through an authenticator app, an email, a text. And so that capability is there, and we continue to talk about that. We'll be launching a little more detailed campaign about that going forward. Uh, but uh each time I speak, I encourage that. Um, and oftentimes, as we would say about beneficiaries, how well, how do we do that? Well, how do we do uh multi-factor authentication? So we're actually working on uh a slide information that you'll be able to click and it'll just kind of walk you through and say, log into your account and go here. We already have it in written form, but we're going to physically show, visibly show you how to do that. So those are important pieces. The last piece is we have 99.3% of our members are receiving electronic transfer to what we would commonly call direct deposit into accounts. We do still have some that are receiving those in mail. Uh, you saw where the Social Security uh administration has said that they're no longer going to do uh mail checks, and so we continue to monitor that and encourage where we can that 0.07 percent of individuals to um consider you know having direct deposit again just to protect the member. And so we're looking at all those different pieces, and as always, as I'm out on the road talking with members, uh having these type of conversations, and our staff is we're listening to conversations and concerns that may come up, challenges that our members have to better uh understand how we can innovate. Finally, the last thing I would say is we're always looking at technology. There's some outstanding innovations in our world taking place right now from AI to other entities that may make us more efficient and effective while still protecting everything that we need to protect. And so we're examining that as well.

SPEAKER_02: 34:43

All right, sounds fantastic. All right, Buster, you've had an incredible career in public education and public service. And as I know, the HM Fulbright Award from Gail is the pinnacle of your career. I know that without question. But what are some other career highlights that maybe you're the most proud of?

SPEAKER_00: 35:03

Well, you know, I really don't want to answer this question, but I'm gonna I'm gonna give a quick little stab. Um you know, first of all, I want to start by by saying relationships is probably the most important thing that I that I look back on. And you guys know being a superintendent is not always easy. You're going to uh, you know, you're going to find people who maybe disagree with you, people who don't like you, people who wish you failure. And so to to have made almost 18 years in that, and um, and even in having situations where maybe there was a time when maybe board always left my board in good shape. In other words, even when there were challenges along the way, when I left that situation, every one of those board members were my friends. It wasn't always that way, at least in one situation. It wasn't always easy. I mean, we've been through things as I don't know, uh, millage rate adjustments, uh, property reevaluation, the things people are going through in recent days. Um, and you know, in 20, 25 years ago, we were doing some of that things, and they were tough decisions, passing bond referendums and passing splots and those things. And fortunately, I don't think we ever lost any one of those, but uh those those were highlights. But, you know, I'm so I'm gonna leave all that alone, but but say relationships, but but I do want to point out the three things real quickly, because these have happened in recent years. Ben, you're absolutely right. The HM Fulbright Award was uh one of those things that to me was was one of the most most heartwarming things because it represented the uh a lot of things that happened in my career. That represented the relationships that I had with Gail and about how Gail had shaped my career. It represented the fact that the Georgia School Superintendents Association had been a part of my life, had been a fact that Gail, that I attended my first Gale in 1994. Many people know this story, some people don't. On the uh two a week and or just several days after our family had lost their home in a fire. And that that was a time of healing. And for all of the years since that time, Gale has been something that has been so important to our family. So, so yes, the HM Fulbright will always be one of those things that's so special. Um sometime along the way in the last few years, the Georgia Retired Educators Association gave me the Friend of GREA award. Um, you know, one of those things I just went about doing what I thought was the work to do. I'm so thankful today that I've got relationships. You know, had I not served as executive director of the Teachers Retirement System, uh I would not have built a relationship with some with many of 150,000 retirees across the state. Heard their stories about the education and saw what a difference that they make. Um that's the second one. The third one is one that just happened this week. And it's not any kind of award, not any kind of plaque. A lot of people don't even know the story, but I had an opportunity to go to Cochrane, Georgia, Blakeley County Schools, where I served for 13 years, and uh speak to their local Cochrane Rotary Club's Christmas party. At that Rotary Club Christmas party, the um Blakeley High School singers came and performed. Uh just amazing. I mean, just brought tears to people's eyes, put people in a festive spirit. Matter of fact, after they got through singing, they said, you don't even need to get up there and speak. And um I did anyway, though. But the reality of it was that was a program when we built the new high school in roughly around 2002, 2003, whatever year it was. One of the decisions that we made is that we wanted a performing arts center. We didn't have one before. Our people are doing one-night play, and people's going to all the things associated with performing arts. You know, they they practiced on a gym floor. I mean, they did things, but we built a performing arts. I had criticism when we built that building because some people thought that that was spending too much money. But when I saw those students, some 20-something years later, perform um, you know, it just was affirming that we're gonna make some tough decisions along the way. Not everybody's gonna agree. It doesn't matter what what role you have as a school administrator. Some decisions are just gonna be tough. But think about what's the right thing to do. Think about the opportunities that it creates for students, think about what the opportunity it creates for our community, focus on doing the right thing. And at the end of the day, hopefully we will be able to look back and say, you know. There were some things that I did along the way that made a difference. And I'll take those to my grave and be proud of it. So, Ben, that's about the best I can give you on that.

SPEAKER_02: 40:10

That is fantastic. And from a Gale perspective, I mean, you are you are the epitome of what we look at as a former Gale member, board member, past president. But more important than that, everything that is right with public education. You are just so well respected and revered across this state. And I hope you know that you've always got a standing invitation to be at all of our Gale conferences. Everybody loves you and respects you. Jason, you you worked with him in multiple uh uh facets, both as a principal and with TRS. You got anything to add to maybe something he left off because he's being humble?

SPEAKER_01: 40:52

You know, I I think that the greatest lesson I've learned uh from Dr. Evans is that when he talks to someone, they are the center of the world at that particular moment. Uh I tell the story that I'd been working for around uh five or six months. He came to visit the school, and he uh said at that point it was my wife Catherine and Abby, uh, our baby girl, and he said, you know, how's Catherine and Abby doing? And, you know, I thought, okay, we've got at that point, I think we had 35,000 students, a massive district. And here's this leader that knows the name of my wife and my children and the importance of that. And the lesson for me was I did not know his wife, Debbie, and his children's name at that point. And so uh, although he may have not sought to teach a lesson in that because that's just who he is, uh, he taught such a valuable lesson to me that I remember, you know, two decades later, and I tried to emulate where I could. And it it's it's it's big shoes to try to emulate there, but the the lesson of that, uh, when he says relationships matter and they're the most important, that is the walk that he's walking. And others are observing that walk and learning from that walk, even that never communicate to him that that they learn from it.

SPEAKER_02: 42:25

That is two great examples. And you're absolutely right. When he's talking to you, you feel like he is totally in the conversation, he's not in a hurry, he's not in a rush, he's got to go somewhere, he's not patronizing you. I mean, he is in the conversation. And I think that the second part you said about him asking about your wife and daughter is such a great example for our leaders out there uh to make sure that we're doing that. That that is just tremendous. And you know, that's I don't know, that's probably better than any any other awards he's gotten as just that legacy. Great, great job. Well, both of you have been incredibly involved in Gale throughout your careers. Um talk to us a little bit about why you thought it was important to be a part of Gale and the Affiliates, and why you also encouraged all of your leaders that worked under you to be involved in Gale and the Affiliates.

SPEAKER_01: 43:21

You know, as I started my career uh working at Glenn as a teacher, I didn't really know about Gale. You you come to know more about Gale as you get into administration. Uh, and as I as I started my career in administration, the particular uh school system that I was working for did not allow at that time uh expenditures from our school system for uh organizations such as Gale and the Learning. So, you know, we had outstanding learning within our district, uh, but really in order to seek opportunities outside, you had to you had to seek those that weren't institutionalized, if you will, um within within the school system. And so uh my first real opportunity to be engaged at Gale at a high level is when I became a principal in in a in a different school system. And going there uh in the beginning selfishly was just about you know learning for myself and understanding for myself. Um and as I went and continued to attend, um, you know, I learned more and I began to see the importance of having others take part. Uh and then uh once again, Dr. Evans as a as a mentor, an example, joined the Forsyth County School system where you know it was discussed, it was encouraged, professional learning was encouraged and discussed. And uh not only you but your team. And uh we laughed at, you know, when we were in Forsyth, we always wanted uh one thing that was important to Dr. Evans that we'd participate in the run and the walk. And so we we uh took part in that, and and uh, and you could just see the the totality of individuals that were there, and so I encouraged, and then when I became superintendent, you know, uh as you know, one of the things I always said is I want you to continue to learn and grow. You've got to go outside of your system so you hear different voices, different perspectives. I think Gail does such a wonderful job of that with programming, but also you're so inclusive of the assistant principal, the superintendent, the principal, the directors, everyone through the affiliates and just in the organization in general has an outstanding opportunity to connect. And it allows you to have resources and conversations that you might not have at just your principal's conference or just your superintendent's conference. You see and can talk to others. So I think it was a very valuable piece. The other thing, and we talked a little bit about family, is uh, you know, my kids are what I've learned to know are called Gale kids. And so they grew up going to Gale, and they have prioritized, it's amazing, you know. I've got a 13-year-old and a 15-year-old, an old man with young kids, and uh, and they have prioritized as teenagers choosing not to go to world championship competitions, to high-level things that they're missing out on because they want to be at Gale. They want to have that experience uh with the individuals there, the the families there, and our family. And uh what a what a wonderful legacy that is for Gale for not only professional growth, but personal growth to uh include families. I just think it's a it's one of the best things we do.

unknown: 46:55

I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 46:55

Thank you, Fox. But Ben, you know, he talked about his family. My kids are on both sides of 40. One's just about 40, one's on the other side of 40. They still like to come to Jekyll Island for summer gale. I mean, and they most recently did with the HM Fulbright thing, but but even with Beach Runs, my daughter who's lives in the adjacent county um of McIntosh County, she'll come down and do things like that and and be a part of it. So they still, I mean, it doesn't stop once they graduate from high school or graduate from college. I mean, I've even had my grandkids come to Summer Gale. I started, you know, with a comment earlier on in the previous podcast about um we become like what we read and who we hang around. And you really kind of let me expound upon that. Gail has done so much more for me than I've ever done for Gale. The people that I've hung around, another one of my mentors said, compare yourself to the best, not the worst. By going to Gail, I was able to hang around the very best educators in the state of Georgia. I was able to be around some of the most influential speakers and educational leaders in the country and in the world. Uh, so those were people who are part of my hanging around. What I reading can be actually expounded to be, yes, what you read, but what you listen to, what you teach, what you what you put into your mind and your being as a part of lifelong learning. Gail does that for the educational professional that will choose to be involved, not to mention growing as a leader by serving on a board, by doing the the many number of things that that go along with being a leader in the wonderful profession of public education. So, you know, I'll continue to say that that Gail did so much more for me than I ever was able to do for Gail, but I continue to be in just totally indebted to the fact that it opened doors for me that I would have never had the opportunity to do. And um, and the fact that you we're continuing to be able to be involved, even post-educational career for both Jason and myself, uh, shows how much we love Gail, how much we believe in it, and how much we'll continue to support the work. It's gonna look different. It hopefully it does look different. Yeah, you know, y'all brought it up the beach run. We may not have the beach run either. He did. We know we don't have the beach running. We don't have the tennis tournament. But you know what? We have professional learning that is the absolute best that we can find in the state of Georgia, and we have the opportunity for the best educators in our state to come together and walk away motivated each summer to go into the new school year and give it their absolute very best. And that is one of the things that Gail did for me along the way.

SPEAKER_02: 49:51

That is awesome. You too. I mean, we may we may make that a commercial for Gail. Uh we may copyright that and uh won't pay either of you for it. But that's fantastic. And thank you for your kind words uh about Gail. I I I reiterate uh exactly what you said from a personal standpoint. Well, thank you both for joining us. This has been an excellent two-part podcast, and we are so appreciative of everything that TRS does uh for our current retirees and our future educators. So thank you, and uh uh thank you for being a part of Gail, and we look forward to continuing our relationship both with Jason at TRS and with Buster as a uh past Gail president for many, many, many years to come. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 50:38

Thank you. Thanks, man. Y'all have a great day.