GAEL UnscriptED S2:E9 | Leading Schools Starts With Trust with Mitch Young

What does it take to lead 43 schools without losing the soul of each community? We brought in Superintendent Mitch Young of Forsyth County Schools to pull back the curtain on a playbook that trades micromanagement for trust, and slogans for a simple, living framework that people actually use.

Mitch’s path from coach to teacher to principal to superintendent reveals a steady theme: leadership is coaching at scale. He explains how Forsyth’s leader profile—centered on relationships, effective communication with active listening, intentionality that avoids jumping to solutions, and growing leaders at every level—keeps the district coherent without stamping out local identity. We dig into why the principalship often feels like the “best job” in education, how to turn assistant principal tasks into real leadership reps, and why classified leaders in custodial, nutrition, transportation, and front offices are the hidden engines of culture.

We also explore a counterintuitive hiring strategy: interview and develop principal candidates before roles open, then match strengths to schools for better fit and longer tenures. Mitch shares how the district resists top-down impulses by co-creating initiatives with school leaders, uses active listening to anticipate the consequences of decisions, and treats the tension between autonomy and brand as a healthy force that drives performance. The result is a district experience families recognize—clear expectations, consistent care, and leaders who multiply other leaders.

If you’re building leadership capacity in any system—school, nonprofit, or business—you’ll leave with practical moves: define a few shared expectations, invest in every layer of staff, slow down to listen, and give real autonomy with clear checkpoints. Subscribe, share this episode with your team, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway so we can keep elevating the conversation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Welcome back, Gale family, to another exciting episode of Gale Unscripted. Today we are very fortunate to have a special guest with us. We got Dr. Mitch Young, superintendent of Forsyth County Schools. Mitch, why don't you take a second and introduce yourself to our audience? We may have some new, younger Gale members out there that don't know you as chairbuilders.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

No, I appreciate it. First, just I want to say thanks for having me here today. This is uh this is a real honor. Uh I'm just in my second year as superintendent in Forsyth County Schools. Uh so to get invited over here to to bet a rap with you for a little bit is uh yeah, I was pretty excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Um so yeah, I'm I'm in Forsyth County Schools where I have been for 19 years. This is my 19th year in the school system. Uh social studies history teacher. Yeah, basketball coach in my background. If you go back prior to Forsyth County, uh coached a little bit in Gwinnett County, and before that coached uh at the college level. And for this last 19 years, I've gone from being a teacher to an assistant principal to a principal, probably the best seven years of my life. Seven years I got to be principal at Forsyth Central High School, uh, then three years as Jeff Beardon's deputy superintendent, and uh and now the last year and a half uh in the in the role of superintendent.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

That's fantastic. And Forsyth County has a tremendous reputation around the state uh for everything that you all do. Um so we we really appreciate you sharing with our guild members. Talk about a little bit. You mentioned coaching. How do you think coaching translates into leadership when you decided to get into administration as assistant principal, principal, and now?

Coaching Principles As Leadership DNA

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah, it it it's it's all the same principles. You know, it it it all goes back to number one, and you'll probably hear me say this 27 times today, but it all starts the foundation of relationship building. You know, and and coaching, I I know for you, coaching for me, that was a vehicle with which to reach young men or young women. Um and through that vehicle try to help them become the best versions of themselves, to learn about working with others in a in a team environment. Um all sounds kind of cliched, but it but it really is what so many of us went into the business for. Um and and then you know it it to me it's this it's the same basic principles that you would expect from a a great teacher or a great leader, which is someone who's a relationship builder who who establishes really clear expectations, ultimately puts people in a position where where uh they've got to kind of stand on their own and and execute, you know, and and get it done and then learn from their mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Yeah. I think there's a lot of correlations myself. I agree with you 100%. So when you were a teacher, did you ever think one day I'm gonna be superintendent or even principal? I mean, how how did that happen? How did you did someone see that in you and kind of call it out of you? Was that something you were already interested in as you were a teacher and watching? How did you get into administration?

Path From Teacher To Superintendent

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah. And and the answer to that is is I never, never pictured that at any of the stages I was at. Um my dad was a was a teacher uh and coach, basketball coach, physical education teacher for 40, 42 years. And um he did the district level AD thing for a while in a small town, uh small school system, um, did that, did what everybody said you don't do, which is go to administration and leave that to go back in the classroom. He did because that's where his heart was and loved it. And when I went into the business, I I figured I would be teaching and coaching for you know 30, 30 plus years. That was the goal. Um I I had someone, uh I was at Shiloh High School in Gwinnett County, and uh at that point started actually backing away from the coaching to kind of devote myself into the classroom. And I had a a a principal uh at the time, a graduate of UGA, he was working as a doctorate at the time, a guy named Bill Kreuzkamp, who said, I'll I'll let you out of the coaching thing. You know, you've done a good job for us for three years. I understand because he's made this, I've made that same move he said, uh, on the condition you go back and get your master's in leadership. I I I took the deal as a as a way to kind of shift out of coaching. I wanted to get my master's anyway. I mean at the time I'm thinking for the pay, you know. But um, but Bill saw that he must have seen something in there. And as I and I went to UGA and and and got to work with the great Sally Zapeta, who was his dissertation chair, and then fast forward 20 years later, this past year, she was my chair.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

And um but anyway, so so he he saw something in there, got me into it, and then when I got into the program is when I really started to piqued my interest in uh in becoming uh a principal one day. That opportunity eventually led to getting a principalship in Forsyth County, and I figured that's where that that's where uh I would finish my career as a as a principal. I loved it. Um I got invited to a breakfast by our superintendent who said you've done a great job there, we see some other things for you. I think you should consider district leadership at some point. And I think you should, there's a great program out there uh run by a man named Keith Porter, who I knew at the time, and and I said, Yeah, you know, I know I know Keith. And uh uh uh Dr. Beard said, I I think you should reach out to Keith and see about his district office professional development program, uh DOPDP we we call it. And I went into that program, and again, I went into that from the onset thinking I the superintendent thing is not for me. Like I you know, but this will make me a better principal. That's fascinating.

Why The Principalship Feels Special

SPEAKER_03 5:58

That story is so similar to my own story. Um anyway, you you mentioned that being a principal was your favorite job. I I agree with that statement on a lot of different levels, not that being a superintendent wasn't a wasn't a fantastic job as well. But why why do you say that? Why or why do you think so many people that served as a principal say that as opposed to the district office?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Well, I'm only a year and a half into this job. So I'm hoping that that when we get back together ten years and I look back and say, oh, the superintendent job is the best job ever. But I if I if I'm being honest, I'm guessing that probably those seven years as principal were the best. And I say that because it's the best of all worlds if you love leadership. And and what I mean by that is the visioneering and the and the developing of a vision and developing a you know, we used to talk about the California being that destination where you want to go. So you you get to create that that California, and then you're hands-on developing the people that are gonna lead the organization there. And so uh that being that the school business, when you're on the ground and in the trenches with the kids and the teachers, it's so rewarding because you know it's it probably feeds the ego because you get instantaneous feedback. Where the decisions you make at the district level, you're two, three, four degrees removed, and you don't you don't get that instant feedback. You know the work is important, you know the ripple effects are are vital, and it really is important work. And I'm I'm humbled to be in that role. But the the joy of the principalship is every day you get to interact with kids and families and teachers, and you know it it comes back to you faster.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

I I love being a principal. I I still like um I'm back up here in the Athens area now, so even if I'm at restaurants or something, I see the old students and their parents, and there's just a special connection that honestly I just didn't have as a superintendent. It it's different from being that building level principal.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

No doubt. They know you from snow days. Yeah, that's right. Snow days and and budget approval. And other than that, you you're not you're not out from behind the curtain, right? That's exactly right.

Defining A Culture Of Leadership

SPEAKER_03 8:09

And uh you'll be watching this episode, Gail Family, months down the road. But we are sitting here in the UGA on the UGA campus here in Athens. This is the week uh leading up to the huge ice storm that's coming to Georgia. So thank you, Mitch, for being here. I know there's a lot of decisions coming, and and we're actually gonna do another podcast just talking about that process. Appreciate it. Talk to us a little bit about how you define a culture of leadership.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah, I think uh I think Ben at the end of the day, culture of leadership is establishing, I and I know we we all use that phrase super nest, we're trying to establish conditions for success. Um, but establishing a culture of leadership, I think goes a step beyond that. I I think it's establishing um it's establishing an environment really where you you're empowering people to lead. And what I mean by that is is you're not dictating from on high, but you're you're giving people the tools, the training, um, and ultimately the trust uh to allow them to do what's right for the situation or the scenario, uh helping helping young leaders. Uh and by young leaders, it can be classroom teachers, it can be assistant principals, it can be principals, it can be district office leaders, anybody involved in in leadership at any level. Um it's helping them to find some confidence in themselves and how to leverage that confident confidence into influence and and positive influence ultimately, and um and and then helping them see how they can apply that to every situation that they've got, whether they're building a vision or dealing with a problem that's got to be solved.

unknown 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

And there's a lot of problems to be solved out there. Yeah, yeah, there is.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Um you know, I we we developed um what we call our leader profile. School system in the world probably at some point in time has developed it the profile of a graduate or the the you know, the learner profile sort of thing. Um but we we developed about six years when I when I first got the job as deputy superintendent um, I guess about five years ago, every every school, every district department, everybody had sort of their own take on leadership. And um so so we collectively defined those very clearly. And again, it it comes down to you know building relationships. Um it comes down to effective communication. You can build a great relationship and trust and just blow the whole thing up if you're not you know effective at your communication. Um it it involves being very uh you know intentional in and um when you're when you're being innovative to make sure that you're not in the game of solutionitis, but being able to identify processes to you know to to uh address real problems with solutions are needed. In education, we always want to kind of jump in there and fix create a solution and fix things before we really know what the problem is. Um so that intentionality is is is a big part of that. Um you know, and and at the end of the day, it's it's you you do those things, but if you want to set yourselves apart culturally, then you develop leaders. And and that's what we're you know, we're we've done a good job of that at the principal level. Um but we're expanding that to include our our assistant principals that that want to be principals, our teachers that want to be that. But my predecessor's deputy, one of the most brilliant programs he put together was what we call our Class A leadership program. And you remember your days as principal, some of your biggest challenges came in your classified personnel. Absolutely. And uh Joey Perkle developed this program called Class A, where we pour into our classified leaders, head custodians, our um you know, our registrars and secretaries, you go to any position, anywhere you've got someone who's at you know the head of the cafeteria or assistant manager, they're all going through the same quality leadership development programs that our aspiring principals and and other leaders are going through. And it's helped them learn to lead and manage their folks in a way that that keeps that off the principal so they can be the instructional leader. Yeah, so so we're we've we've developed and invested a lot into our leadership development programs.

Coherence Across 43 Schools

SPEAKER_03 12:38

That's a great point. Gail members, you may be uh listening to this and you may be thinking, you know, we we've got an in-house leadership development program in our district, but right now we are just focusing on our aspiring principals or or our assistant principals becoming principals or district office leaders. But that is a fascinating and a great point that Mitch brings up. You've got other leaders that are leading departments, facilities, and maintenance and transportation, and and leading those employees take certain skills. And sometimes we don't do a really good job of teaching those people how to be a leader. Yeah. And so I think that's a great idea that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

At the end of the day, going back to your actual question, you know, understanding that that that leadership is nothing more than using your influence in an intentional way is really kind of how we define that.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Sound like a great John Maxwell answer, right? Well, it might be. I'm sure I got that from somewhere. That's outstanding. Now, the real trick is you you define that leadership culture in your school district. How do you go about making sure that definition is clearly understood amongst your leaders?

Autonomy Versus Brand Tension

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, and that's that's why the development of that leader profile was was I felt so important. And and it I I'll just tell you, it came about um when when you would go through aspiring leaders program that we called at the time now our lead academy. There were the eight core essence of leadership. All great stuff. If you spoke with the HR director about what do I really need to become a you know a principal, it would have some overlapping but but a different lexicon. Then you'd you'd be brought in if you were going to be hired as principal, you'd sit down with Dr. Beard and he'd give his as the superintendent, his list of expectation became known as the Beard list. So just right there. Yeah. There's three different not competing, but but you know and so what we we did is we we brought everybody together, all of our different leadership uh from different levels, and and defined that in a in a profile. The reason that is so important, particularly as you you're you're growing as our system has been for the last several years, is it provides coherence. You know, and that's the one thing that that I I talked about my my chair here from UGA, Sally Zapeta, but I mean she's written chapters and articles on the importance of coherence. And the larger you get, uh if you don't have a coherent approach to anything, but particular leadership, it's gonna be very disjointed. It's gonna be and what happens is you lose clear expectations. And as soon as you lose the clarity of expectations, uh you you can't expect to set the bar very high. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

That's right. Because you approximately I I can't remember, but you probably have well over 20 elementary schools. Yeah. You've probably got well over 10 or so middle, and how many high schools?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

So we've got we've got 43 schools in total, 23 elementary, uh, and then and then at the secondary level, 20.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

So if you're not being very intentional about that leadership culture, you could have 43 completely different things going on in those buildings.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Absolutely. And and now to to make sure for the last several years, to make sure that we're all uh singing from the same playbook. Certainly we have our leaks, you know, antiaks, you know, state state evaluation systems, but our principals know, and their APs know, that they're really being measured by their effectiveness at at leaving out the the leader profile.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Um and so that that tool uh has it has really helps us as a tool to identify leaders to some degree evaluate leaders. And we're all using the same playbook.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

And I really like that you're involving all the different uh levels of leaders, like transportation and maintenance. I think that's very, very smart. School nutrition, all of it. Um let's say there's uh uh a Gale member watching this and they they that piques their interest. Uh who could they reach out to at Forsyth County to maybe just get a little more information on maybe your leadership development program?

Avoiding Isolated Programs

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah, no, we've got we've we've got uh we call them the 49ers. We we we love them, but we've got we've got four uh four retired uh folks, you know, which includes my predecessor, Jeff Jeff Beardon, and you've got Dr. Cindy Salome um and um and and and a handful of others uh that that all under under Josh Lowe, our our chief of staff, and I know you know Josh, uh he he now gets to to stand kind of uh over all the leadership development programs. So you can reach out to to Josh, you can reach out to me. Honestly, if you go to our website and you and you surf around, you go to the leadership department or superintendent's department, and uh all that stuff's available on there. And then I'm I'm hoping at some point down the road, maybe at a at a at a gale, we'll have an opportunity to share some of those.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

That's fantastic. So if you're watching this, go on their website. I think uh uh it's very important. Um, you know, coaches steal ideas from successful people all of the time. And I think that's what really good educational leaders do as well. They see someone that's doing something, and rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, let's find somebody that's doing it and successful with it and tweak it to make it our own. But that's great. I'm sure you'll get some interest from that. Why do you think it's so important for school districts to be so intentional about defining their leadership culture rather than just letting it develop organically?

Formal And Informal Leader Development

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yeah, I you know, I'm a big believer in autonomy, you know, and and and allowing our our school leaders to have the space that they need to do what they need to do for their individual communities. And that that's one of the things about having a school system with, you know, 43 schools. Um we we've got we've got probably five distinct communities within our within our system. And so you've got it, you've got to give that flexibility to do that. Now, if you give autonomy to the point where where there's nothing that connects you, yeah, then then you don't have a school system. You have a s a system of individual schools. And and so for us, like the leader profile, the learner profile, and our strategic plan are really the three documents that connect us as a system that that establish what our brand is gonna be. And um, so adherence to that or connectivity to that, that you may need to lead in one way uh down at Big Creek Elementary and up at Coal Mountain Elementary, the other end of the county. You might have to have some different programs for your community, but at the end of the day, it's gonna be in support of the strategic plan and your leadership style, whatever that may be, is still gonna have those elements that we expect uh you know from our leader profile to make sure that you're you know living up to the brand. I mean, and I think you know, you you think about some large churches, um, you know, North Point Church is one that that's in our area, uh, Andy Stanley, who's got multiple churches. He and I actually had a brief conversation one day that we'd we have similar challenges in that there's always a tension between the the brand and the autonomy. And and Andy said, you know, if that if that ever goes away, if that tension ever goes away, then you've probably lost your organization. Like you should have leaders empowered that they want to do what's right. Yeah. You should also have what you believe collectively as a system is is what's right. And those two things are you know occasionally gonna come up against each other, and then you work through it. But that's that's how you you drive your your organization upward, you know, and onwards.

Turning AP Tasks Into Leadership Reps

SPEAKER_03 20:17

So I think that's a great point. That's one of the things I learned in the district office PD with Keith Porter that you mentioned. Um, you know, when I was just a principal, you kind of think just about your school. Yeah. Going through that really helped me have more of that global vision for the district. But I think that the way you worded that is excellent. How you there's always that natural, whatever you said, tension, yeah. Between the autonomy and the brand. Yeah. Those anchors of we are Forsyth County School District, and these are our whatever you call them, our anchors, our pillars, or whatever, but this is what we do. But the principal does have some autonomy in how he or she gets to that. Yeah. I think that's that's excellent. What risk do you think systems face when leadership development is treated as a series of isolated programs instead of a shared expectation?

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yeah. Well, it's that it's that loss of coherence without without question. Um that that's the fastest way to devolve into 43 little kingdoms. Um and and it it's the loss of quality control, you know, if you will. I hate to use that term. It sounds like a like a manufacturing term, but um, you know, there there's a reason why you go to Chick-fil-A or you go to Marriott and and you know you can expect a certain level of customer service, of cleanliness, of quality. Uh, when you go to a Forsyth County school, we want you to experience what it means to be in a Forsyth County school. And so so you yeah, obviously we we we encourage each of our schools to develop their leadership programs. And and some principals have their own, you know, they're they're they're uh you know. Their own monthly program for aspiring leaders, that sort of thing. But they're all using as the anchor to that the Versythe Kent School's leader profile. And um it's just that that's that's how you keep your ship sailing in the you know in the same direction.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Yeah, I think that's great. Great point. You've spoken about leadership development, and of course that can happen both formally and informally. Uh how do you balance that structured approaches like district initiatives with everyday opportunities, such as an assistant principal responsibility and transition support?

Slow Down And Listen Actively

Hiring For Fit Before Openings

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, the uh you know the formal are pretty easy because you've got programs for that, or if you have an initiative that uh you know that's coming from the county office. I I would say there's very few, if any, initiatives that come to the county office that the principals or the the school admin teams or teachers aren't a part of developing. So so what you know we're we're just not gonna be a top-down organization. It's it's gonna be collective ownership. Um but that but but that's easy to talk about on the formal side. The informal side, it just in the last couple years, and you know, we we have our monthly admin meetings and which are which are followed by some professional learning for our principals. And then that that same we have our monthly AP meetings, assistant principal meetings. And so at each of those assistant principal meetings, actually at the principal meetings too, but thinking specifically to this, at the assistant principal meetings, we do some professional learning with them. In each each meeting we have brings a tenant, we've got five tenants of that leader profile, and helping them to understand. I think I think one of the most important things we've done with our APs is when you're in that role of AP, obviously your principal is gonna assign you duties, and you look at that as how can I get these checked off? You know, your your role as an AP is to get things done. See that? But I didn't have to be edited on that. I didn't know get things done. So we get things done in a timely manner, and you want to wrap them up with a bow as quick as you can, and the more of those you get through, the better you feel as a you know, as an AP. It's kind of like because you you probably have just left the classroom and you got to get from unit to unit. You know, so there's that sense that you're on a clock. One of the things we help them to understand is that being efficient is great for your principal. It's great management. But every one of those duties you've been given is an opportunity to develop your leadership skills. And so let's just say you've been assigned uh the duty roster that that every AP is a you know at some point has to have that, right? So you're in charge of the duty roster. Okay, well, you can sit down and very efficiently assign that out, hand it out to everybody, and it's done. You're probably gonna deal with low-level grumbling all year long. But by golly, you did what the A what the principal wanted, and it's, you know. So that's great. That's a great manager. But if you want practice at being a leader, then how can you use the duty roster to number one tenant on there build relationships? All right, and we let them scenario that out. Well, building teams or having a group of teachers come together that you lead and and think about things from their perspective and thought. How how are you going to communicate that? Number number two on our list. Um, what level of intentionality? Like again, having those teachers give you input. Let me back up. On our communications, the number one bullet point on effective communications for us is listening actively. Um so listening to them, then that helps with the intentionality of playing that out. You know, thinking about things that you hadn't thought about. You know, and then and then you might get into innovation, you might, you know, might get into leadership development, but those first three tenets of our leader profile are vital, and you can apply those to any duty that you've got as a as an AP. You're leading an IEP meeting. There's an opportunity to lead rather than manage the meeting. If you're, you know, make it make a list of all the things that APs do. Every one of those is an opportunity to develop your leadership skill. And so we we drill that into them, we drill the principles into them to to remind them this is a chance to do it effectively.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

And and so that's that's more informal, but with some formal professional learning. I really like that.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

You know, we we remind assistant principals all the time that you're you're interviewing for your future job every day while you're on the job. But I think what you're you're doing there at Forsyth County is you're making their role as assistant principal very intentional about developing their leadership skills with something as simple as a duty supervision roster.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Um you're you're you're giving them the opportunity to build upon that. Um and and I I don't think we do that all the time as a building level principal or from a school district. So I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Well we're always in such a hurry. Yeah. We're always in such a hurry. And we and we're uh we're all busy that, but all guilty of that. But you know, with when you when you look back, you look back at I wish I'd slowed down a little bit. Maybe that's because I've hit the fifth floor now in my life. I'm starting to slow things, I want to slow things down a little bit in a way I didn't used to. But but when you look back and you reflect, it's missed opportunities for for relationship building, it's it's missed opportunities for doing it a better way. Um just don't be in such a hurry, slow down and listen to people.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

I loved your two. Um you made more than two, but the two that really caught my ear were um communication and uh how did you say in it? Uh engaged listening. Is that active being an active listener? Talk about that a little bit and why that's important for a leader rather than because you mentioned earlier you don't you don't want your district to be top down. Do you want that?

Foundations: Trust, Autonomy, Relationships

SPEAKER_00 27:44

No, but listen, I I think my my my grandpa Mitchell um uh years and years and years ago always always reminded me that the smartest guy in the room was usually the guy that was talking the least, you know, and was listening or had the best questions. Um and I and I think d w as educators we're all talkers. Uh you know, that that's just just part of our DNA. And what should be a two-way conversation, we're really not actively engaged in what they have to say. We're just waiting for a breath so we can say what we have to say. And uh there again, you miss out on opportunity of learning and um learning w where they're coming from. I I think probably I uh again I I quote Jeff Bearden on this one, but um you know, wisdom is being able to anticipate the consequences of your decision. And and um I you know that wisdom comes from a lot more listening and a lot less talking.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Yeah, yeah. I like that. I I was talking to Josh Lowe earlier this year, maybe before Christmas, and uh he told me y'all were conducting interviews for principal positions that didn't even exist yet. Yeah. And when you've got as many schools as you have, you're you're not only developing the leaders in-house, but talk just a little bit about how y'all do the interviews. So your candidates are they're interviewing for jobs that aren't open yet. Yeah.

Closing And Where To Learn More

SPEAKER_00 29:10

So that way when they are open, you guys are ready to move. No, and that and it's a little unique. And then this goes back really to the if we're gonna give autonomy to the levels that we do to our building principals, then we've got to make sure we've got the right fit for the right school. And so our leadership, everybody does this a little bit differently. Um, you know, and it and it's just you know, now I got a doctorate, I can just say this is organizational socialization that we're talking about here. A phrase I didn't know anything about four years ago. Um But you know, one one way in in an organizational socialization program is to build into them or back up into prototype of the principal or the leader you want. And a lot of a lot of sudden, and and just think sort of military-like, you know, you know, you dress them down and build them back up again or the police academy. Um but but our our system, long before I got there, um, and and I think it's absolutely the right way for our for our system to do this way, is you identify your leaders that's got potential to lead a school, you bring them in, and rather than divest them of their, you know, of their characteristics, you build on them. You build on their strengths, you help them become reflective to see their blind spots so that down the road they can they can catch themselves or be safe, you know, being vulnerable with their own team to know where the blind spots are and build them up that way. And so, so when they go through our program and then interview for principalship, they're interviewing for the job of principal, but they know even though they may be the top of their class, it may be two or three years before the school that matches their skills and has what we feel would be the best the best fit. And so it it's not the most efficient way to become a principal, but it it's it's how we have principals that are lined up for the right schools and then ultimately stay there a long time.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

I think that's very, very smart. Uh fit is so important, I think sometimes um new leaders, assistant principals, they're they're they want to be a principal so badly that sometimes they apply and interview for jobs that aren't a good fit for them or they aren't a good fit for the job. And I I I think I really like that y'all do that. It's very impressive. Uh regardless of district size or context, what foundational elements do you believe must be in place to truly develop leaders?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Um we've talked about all these things, but but uh a good summation of that is is I just I I feel like number one thing, regardless of your size, is you have got to be willing to give some autonomy. Because in my mind, that's just another way of saying trust. If you're not putting if you're in a one high school, uh say a one high school school district, if you're not putting someone in charge of that high school that you can completely trust to do the right things by his people, most importantly by the kids and also by the by the teachers, the parents, if you don't have that full trust in them, then you then you shouldn't be putting them there anyway. So that's number one, is that and then once you put them there, trust that they're gonna do what's right, even though maybe different. So that's I think a bedrock. Um that leads right to the other element that I think is so important, uh, again, regardless of school size, is you can either multiply leaders in your system or you can diminish people who have leadership potential. And there's a great book, Multipliers, that's out there that talks about that. But but empowering and entrusting people to lead, given expectations, but then getting out of the way and letting them lead, having regular check-ins of feedback to make sure they're meeting the expectations, but not making those expectations the day-to-day operational, just the mid-year, endpoint, five-year plan expectations, and then going back to the number one, which is trusting them to get there. So it you know, and trusting your folks, number one, giving them that autonomy that goes with that. And then and then not micromanaging, which diminishes them. Otherwise, as the superintendent, I I'm gonna own all the problems. And I've hired you as a principal, and we're paying you a lot of money to to handle this for us. So so equipment. So those are the two really the most two important thing. And then obviously we're in the we're in a the people business, we're in the relationship business. And um, you know, I I you can't I I just don't think you can be effective whether you're at a uh a 300 student school district or 53,000. If if you don't recognize that it we're all about relationships, you're not gonna last long.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Yeah. I I as I'm sitting here listening, I'm just thinking about the uh developing leaders that are in Forsyth County. They're hearing very strong, clear, consistent communication of what that leadership profile is. Um they're learning how to trust uh when they're the leader, how to their their leader is giving them trust to figure out how to lead. Um and that's coming from the top. You're doing that for the principals. I just think that you you mentioned the word micromanage. We do know both in the business world and in school districts, that's like the the number one thing that will turn culture off. It is a culture killer, so you're doing an outstanding job of that. Gail members, you've heard Mitch talk about a lot of great things today. Do not hesitate to go on their website and look, reach out, call Josh Lowe if you want to get some more information. But Mitch, thank you so much for coming today, and we are gonna take you up on some future uh Gale conferences to really get more in-depth on some of this leadership development.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Well, I I appreciate it. This was a joy. And uh yeah, anytime we get to talk about leadership development and not just about uh taxes and snow days and millage rates and all those things, it's a it's a great day. So thanks, Ben.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Well, thank you, Mitch. Thank you, Gale family, for joining us for another episode of Gail Unscripted.