GAEL UnscriptED S2:E13 | GLISI Part #1

You can feel it in every school building right now: the pace is relentless, the stakes are high, and even great people can slide into survival mode. We bring in Leslie Hazle Bussey and Jennie Welch from GLISI, the Georgia Leadership Institute for School Improvement, to talk about a different path, one built on leadership development that changes culture, not just calendars.

We dig into how GLISI partners with districts across Georgia, including strategic planning with the Georgia School Boards Association, and why their work is designed to be deeply place-based. We also get specific about professional learning: when an intact leadership team steps away from the daily fire drill for experiences like Base Camp and Leadership Summit, trust can form faster, thinking gets clearer, and leaders can start acting with intention. That off-site design is not fluff; it is a practical way to restore capacity and build shared language across a community ecosystem.

Then we get to impact. GLISI shares outcomes tied to school improvement and student success, including partner graduation rates that average higher than the state, stronger intent-to-stay signals connected to teacher retention, and meaningful boosts in educator satisfaction. We also explore “Portrait Of A Graduate” work that uses creative student input and empathy interviews to reshape what learning can look like, making it more engaging, relevant, and workforce-aligned.

If you care about education leadership, principal coaching, teacher retention, and sustainable school improvement, this one is for you. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review, then tell us: what is one leadership move that kept you in the work?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Welcome back, Gail family, to another exciting episode of Gail Unscripted. We've got a live studio audience here today with our special guest from Glissey. Many of you, Gail members, may know a lot about Glissey. Some of you, this you may not be as familiar, or this may be your first opportunity. So we have two great guests today. I'm gonna let each of you introduce yourselves and maybe tell us a little bit something about yourselves and maybe how you got involved with Glissey. Absolutely. Who wants to go first?

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Well, we'll jump away. We'll jump in over here. Leslie Hazel Buster. Yes, CEO, executive director. Like a lot of folks, I think, who we find in our ecosystem somehow that middle grades experience is the fire that forged me. And I started um as a teacher of middle grade students of English and social studies.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

I didn't know you taught middle school. Yeah, I just got you got street credit with me. Right? It just went way up.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

That's the fire. It's the fire. And once you once you can make it through there, you've got that special kind of crazy. And so we bring that uh to to the work of growing leaders.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

That's awesome. And I'm Jenny Welch. I'm Glissey's chief strategy officer. I've been with Glissey for 15 years, and I ended up there on quite honestly by accident. Um I came to the University of Georgia to do my doctoral work in public administration and uh found myself in an interview with then executive director Gail Holm, who needed a doctoral fellow to help work on uh uh a grant project with the Wallace Foundation about what draws leaders into the profession and what causes them to stay, and how can principal supervisors help support creating conditions for principals to stay. And I thought I was just going to get to know Gail, but it turned out to be a full panel interview, including uh my friend over here, Leslie, uh, ready to interview and check if we needed or wanted this doctoral fellow on our team. And that was my first interaction uh with them. And I tell people it was a fast burn, not a slow burn, just uh really coming to love not the academic side of thinking about leadership, but the applied part of leading and the work that our organization does to support leaders in leading. And I've been with them now for almost 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Wow. And Leslie, what was your position at that time? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Oh, let's see. It would have been so I was brought in as director of research and policy, quickly became gosh, what was it? We don't know.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Chief of staff, I think, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

There that was a step in there. I also led our leadership development team. There was a short stint that I was the deputy director before I became executive director about eight years ago now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Yeah.

Strategic Planning With GSBA

SPEAKER_01 3:16

I loved your kind of your lead-in. You talked about how and why did they stay. Falls right in line with Senate Resolution 237, you know, the Senate Ed Committee did uh for both teacher and leader retention and recruitment. So I think it's gonna be a great opportunity for us to talk about. Some leaders out there, both at the school and district level, that's on the forefront of everyone's mind how Glissey can help with that. So let's let's jump right in. Um, or maybe let's talk about this first. Some some people out there may have, if they're not well versed in Glissey, they may have had a small um introduction with Glissey, maybe if they've done their strategic planning session with GSBA. Why don't you talk about that a little bit? As uh what what is Glissey's role in that? Because some of them may, that may be some of their first encounters with Glissey.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Sure, I'll jump in on that. We have had a long-standing partnership with the Georgia School Boards Association and supporting strategic planning all around the state. And that partnership across my tenure, I don't know the origin story, but I know for at least as long as I've been at Glissy has really looked like their team doing really a fantastic job of bringing the board and a community together to think about the priorities that are most important from the community perspective about what school can be. And Glissy is providing that support with school teams, with educators, and with folks who have a lot of experience thinking about what school is like from inside the walls of the schoolhouse to take those really generative ideas and aspirations for what school can be and figure out okay, how can we bring this to life here? And how can we measure and know if we're moving school to be closer aligned with that vision? And that's been a fruitful partnership for us, and to your point, a great way for people to come to know us as a support to school leaders and district leaders all around the state.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Ben, I'm so glad you asked about it because I think the other piece that we're very intentional about, of course, Val serves on our board, um, but we're very intentional about that partnership itself, modeling the partnership on school governance teams where the board and the community really set those high-level strategic goals, but then they hand the piece uh that works with school staff, district staff, and school staff to really operationalize it so that it really keeps both um groups locked into where their strengths are. Yeah. Um, so we're very intentional about sort of keeping the partnership as a model for how school governments and um and school staff work together.

What Glissey Is And Why

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Well, I think Glissy and GSBA do a great job of bringing all of those different um uh people, all those groups together, because like you said, the school folks we're we're really good at knowing how the school operates and the district, but we need that fresh set of eyes from the community's perspective and the business uh and economic development's perspective to help us really make sure we're doing what's best for the community for that school district. So y'all do a fantastic job with that. All right, well, what sets Glissey apart?

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Yeah. Well, I wonder if we circle back to our pre-recording conversation because people might wonder what does Glissy even stand for?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

So Oh, don't put me on the spot again. I've got the first two letters and the last two letters for sure. All right, Georgia leadership and the last two, Institute for School Improvement. Absolutely that middle eye was giving me a pop. I knew when you said that, I thought she is going to ask me this.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Every teacher. Ever the teacher. But you did great. We did great.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

At least in eighty.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Glissy stands for Georgia Leadership Institute for School Improvement, a mouthful. We are a nonprofit organization. We've been celebrating our 25th year in operation this year in 2006. We were born uh through the dream of then governor uh Roy Barnes, and he thought about where is the most impactful lever that he could leave as a state leader for his legacy and looked at the role that school principals in particular, but education leaders across the board play in um in wide-scale impact and change. And so that was the impetus for our our coming of uh coming to life, and we've gone through several iterations as an organization, but we are now an independent nonprofit, and we really do three things. Our theory is that when we develop those leaders, that changes culture, and that it's that longer-term culture change that produces some really sustainable, powerful outcomes, things like teacher retention, um, things like uh student attendance, things like uh reduction in student discipline referrals, and ultimately, of course, those really key student outcomes, things like graduation rates and student achievement that we all aim for. But there's a long pathway between leadership development and those things.

Why Off-Site Learning Works

SPEAKER_00 8:20

One of the ways I would answer your question about who we are is just with metaphors. I think some people experience us a little bit like church. I think some people experience us a little bit like a gym coach, like a fitness coach. Sometimes people experience us like a trusted confidant. So to Leslie's point, we show up in different ways with team experiences, with individual leader coaching, um, with some of those experiences that are more about building muscle and muscle memory around school process and procedure. And so people experience us a variety of different ways, but we're all of those things to our partners. And we're people that live here in Georgia. Um, our team is place-based here. Um, we know which counties have a dollar tree and which counties have one stoplight. And um, we know Georgia like the back of our hand, and we really strive to know our partners as deeply as we can and think of them and regard them as neighbors. And I do think that is a differentiator when we talk to the people we work with and that we serve. One thing we consistently hear is that you didn't just come in and deliver a program. You didn't come in and deliver a service. You came in to deeply know us and then design a learning experience for what we wanted to achieve. Um, and the last thing I'll say about what sets us apart to Leslie's point is being a nonprofit is sometimes our partnership conversations feel a little bit like dating because we aren't mandated to be anywhere as a nonprofit. Our mandate is our mission. And because of that, we have the opportunity to meet with superintendents, to meet with district leaders and ask, what's your mission? What are you trying to accomplish? What are your goals in terms of developing your team? And when we hear and find synergy, those create great moments for us to then connect and to partner together to achieve something together. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Well, you know, when it comes to professional learning, there's a lot of different models out there. You know, of course, there's there's conferences, there's one-day conferences, there's multi-day conferences, there's uh year-long professional development that goes on where they meet once a month. Tell us just quickly, what does the what does it look like for Glissey? And um I know you do it off-site, but maybe talk about why do you do it off-site rather than maybe on-site, or maybe you do some things on-site as well. But talk about the the uniqueness or or what you think school districts get out of the fact of coming off-site together to get away from the from home and from the school district to do some of this work.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Well, there's a couple of questions in that question, Ben. I think one is um kind of what's the quote unquote off-the-shelf experience that anyone could could come and and um engage. And so we probably are are well known for our base camp and leadership summit experience, which is an off-site experience, and it's very intentionally designed to pull teams, in-tech teams ideally, um together off-site, pull them out of the fire of every single day. Well, I think that most of us are stuck in this sort of um nervous system flood of reactivity, and there's really no space in the day-to-day um fire drill for the kinds of generative thinking, the kinds of um vision casting, the kinds of relationship connections, deep trust, not just uh, you know, I can I can ask about your your wife and your dog and your kids, but really understand what makes you tick, what drove you to enter this profession, what's the thing that's gonna really um set you on fire so that we can put you on on that seat on the bus and activate kind of our group and optimize. So I think that that's we're we're kind of trying to move past um survival, right? And really think about how do we position school teams and community teams, not just inside school, but recognizing that leadership across a community. Um as a superintendent, right? You can appreciate it's not just y'all inside the schoolhouse, but if you have the partnerships and and can share a common language and shared experience with the head of your chamber, with your other economic development organizations, um your higher ed partners, even your private and charter school partners in the community, um, healthcare, your electeds, that all of those folks create an ecosystem that can either hinder your students and families' success, or if working together, can really tremendously open some doors. And so that kind of thinking that's a little bit more outside the box and maybe challenging some ways that things have always been done is easier when your physical environment is a little bit different. The other thing I'll add is that you know, Jack Welch of GE long ago he uh was accused of of um you know really mishandling a lot of investment because he pr he built these really robust kind of leadership development facilities for these um upcoming executives. And his argument for that was, and of course they were they were proper conference tables and chairs like these, right? And and windows, right, instead of cinder block. And people were saying, Why are you doing this for these people who aren't even executives? And he said, Because we need them to feel like executives in order to act like executives. And I think pulling people off-site restores that uh that full capacity of humanity gets you out of that reactive state, and that's why there's a lot of intention, not just to getting you off-site to any place. We are really intentional about thinking about which of the many, many beautiful sites in Georgia we could bring people to that might most sort of bring you into that state of creativity and generativity. So it's not just driving up, but a place that might have uh a lot more opportunities to be outdoors, to walk, to uh climb a mountain. Um and so those are very intentional design features.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Well, I think it's important for the when those leaders and those school leadership teams can leave their community. Um, because if you try to do training on site, yeah, you're just too close. Um your phone's going off non-stop, your emails are going off just like Leslie's right now. But you can't get away. Um, and if you're still there on site doing training, your spouse is texting you, don't forget to pick up the kids, don't forget, and when you go off, there's something magical that happens. You're able to disconnect to some level and really focus on the work. So I think that's that's a strength.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

I'll say just um to add to what Leslie was naming about Base Camp and Leadership Summit. I've been with Glissey now for, like I mentioned, over 15 years. Every single year I go to Base Camp and Leadership Summit, I hear or speak directly with somebody who has said this is the first time. And so to Leslie's point about Jack, well, it's just creating an opportunity for people to leave home and to learn together, to break bread together, to work on something hard together. Um, that is a stick, we create a sticky memory. And when we think about learning, um the the the last time you really learned something new, you probably were a little bit outside of your comfort zone. And so that is for sure a part of the calculus. We do do work in district, but that work looks less like a residential training experience. That work looks like we are coming in to support a cohort of aspiring leaders over a year-long experience to develop their capacity. And we're doing a lot of work in district that's contextualized to where they are in school. The same for classified personnel. So there is work that we're doing, strategic planning. We're not moving off-site, right? We're there and we're embedded. And so, depending on the nature of the work, is how we think about the location for where we are.

unknown 16:32

All right.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Tell us about your impact. What has been some lasting changes you've noticed for the leaders and the districts that you support?

SPEAKER_03 16:42

I would um I, you know, there's levels, and you all do a lot of professional learning here. I'm sure you think a lot about things like the the Kirkpatrick five level, right? And so I'm gonna start where I think a lot of us um locate our where our hearts are, our aspirations are. Um, and that is sort of at that that level five impact. And um you know, we look at things like uh graduation rates, we look at things like um, like I said earlier, student attendance and um and discipline referrals. And one of the things that we persistently see when we pull uh those districts in Georgia who have a pattern of partnership with us, so we're not just looking at somebody who came you know in with us for sort of five days, uh, but when we look at those districts that have a pattern of partnership and we look at the trends in their graduation rates. Our graduation rate is six points higher than the state average on when you averaged our our Glissy partners. You know, House School 1009 has been high school students, middle school students can have kid legislators for uh all adults.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

These are leaders reaching out to Liz because they need her. That's true. That's what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Um But as I was saying, those graduation rates do exceed the state average. But what what gets us really excited is those students and families who most depend on public education to be the bridge to opportunity are the ones that you see even larger gaps closed for in Glissey districts. So you've got our so our African American students, our Hispanic students, students who are in who are speaking English as a second language, those are the students that you see substantial gains that far exceed the state average. And so those are points of significant pride for us. But I think then you start working backwards on that Kilpatrick kind of impact, and we do see really substantial changes in culture. And so thinking about things like teacher retention to go back to your open, Ben, um in our programs that are focused on um on aspiring leaders or specifically at the school leader level, we see a substantial um kind of outperformance of the state average on intent to stay. So thinking about that page uh survey that's been done and looking at the sort of the grim uh the outlook that I think teachers have painted, we have 95% of the teachers in schools where GLISC leaders have completed our aspiring leaders program um are reporting an intent to stay for three or more years compared to that 88% average. Um so we're really proud of that. We hear that 77% of teachers in um in the schools led by our retained leaders. So we've got a program that's aimed at developing leaders' social emotional muscle. Teachers are reporting immediately a 77% improvement in their job satisfaction. We see fewer chronically absent students in those schools. So there's really some encouraging data to suggest that the first round pass when but that districts and and participants share with us, which is they loved it, right? I'm sure this is what you get too, because it's a hard job. You pull people out, you feed them a little bit, uh, it feels good. But some transfer that seems to be happening that's taking root in the way adults are changing their behavior, and that that's having longer-term effects on student outcomes.

Portrait Of A Graduate Work

SPEAKER_01 20:30

That's awesome. Because people don't leave jobs, they leave leaders. That's right. Speaking of leaders, tell us maybe some things that school and district leaders have shared with you all at Glissey that they've really gotten out of being involved with Glissey, whether it's for them personally or for their school or district or for their teachers. What are some things they've shared with you?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

I'm I have recency bias, as my my friends and colleagues know, so I'll speak just from this past week. Um, we're doing some work in Green County right now to support them in building a portrait of a graduate. And the way we've approached that work has really been about how could we get as creative as we possibly could be about hearing from people we might not otherwise hear from if we just host a community night or an engagement session, and in thinking about the sorts of things we would ask in order to better understand what they hope for out of school. And so I'll just give two examples. We invited students to actually draw a portrait of themselves as young adults. Where did they want to be? What were they hopeful to uh to be able to do? And then we asked them to think about what does that mean that you need to start developing, not just in terms of what you know, but your skills in school right now. And then we had members of that leadership team who are employees of Green County School System actually go out and do what we call an empathy interview. Where the purpose of it isn't just to sort of screen or to judge or to make an assessment or a judgment of somebody, but to just better understand what's your experience like as a parent, as a small business owner here, as a member of our board. And it was those data that we then brought back to educators to say, this is the experience that people are having. How can we begin to start to think about making it better? And just got off the phone with their superintendent this week who said that conversation that we've been able to begin to have is it's of course about the portrait, but it's about the way we're getting there. Those data are changing the sorts of conversations that are happening about what the student experience of school could be. It can be more engaging, it can be more relevant, it can be more hands-on, it can be more workforce-aligned. And so that is an example of just right now in this moment, the way people are thinking about what learning can be, just shifting incrementally in ways that I know are going to have an impact on students.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

I think there's there's three things that I most love to hear. And it really speaks to when I realized as a middle grades teacher that my jam was not middle grade students, it was actually the adults. Um and I I really am here for those leaders and teachers who got into education for whatever well, a long time ago, generally for the same reason, to make a difference in a young person's life. And somewhere along the line, the light goes out in their eyes, right? And one of my favorite things to see is that that fire has been rekindled and that they say that they believe they can make a difference again. And it's not just because they personally are inspired, it's because they look around them and they don't feel alone. They know that they can count on a team, they have a shared vision, and so there's some efficacy and confidence that that hope could be realized. So that re-re uh kind of resurrection really um appropriate in the season, um, is is is one of the most inspiring things. But I also hear a lot of people say, for the very first time, I see myself as a leader. Because oftentimes what we're doing is we're developing leaders alongside teachers. We love to to develop uh intact teams, and it has such a powerful effect for a young teacher to see a district office leader show up in a learning stance and say, I don't have all the answers. And so when we say to create a classroom environment where our students are safe to take risks, where they can be generative in their thinking, that we're walking that talk first as adults. And I think for teachers to say, Wow, I'm not just a um teacher, right? I am an important part of this work, and um, so I I now can see myself as a leader. So that one is really powerful. And then my third one that I love to hear is when people say, you know what, this has been great for us because I like my team and I think what we do at school is really important. But you know what I'm finding is it's improving my relationships at home. It's improving my relationship with my spouse, with my children. And so that part is some of the most inspiring because that sounds a lot like really deep transformative learning.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Yeah, and if it's working at home, it's probably working at the school as well. And teachers are leaders, and they're the future educational leaders. I thought you made a great point. You know, I I always remind principals if you're doing professional learning of any sort or any kind, and you're not in the room actively participating, you're sending a message. Right. And so that's that was a great point you brought up, and I know that's very important to Glissy, that those leaders are there.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

And they're not just there to sit and get and watch, but they're active participants. And um I think that's a good reminder for all of us as educational leaders is that if if we are having any kind of professional learning and training, we need to make sure that we are there and we're fully engaged. We're not on our phones, we're not walking out with uh our cell phone going off, and I hope my Pelham High School teachers are not listening to this episode because they'll say he was the worst.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

But anyway. You know, we say about students that behavior is communication. Yeah. Behavior is communication. It is, it is and we are absolutely communicating without saying a word. Without saying a word. You're right.

Future Episodes And Real Leader Stories

SPEAKER_01 26:45

All right. Well, in future episodes, we're planning to feature some of the folks that you all have served and are currently are serving directly. Can you give us a preview of what's ahead in future episodes? Uh I know you've been heavily involved in Pelham, uh, where I used to work. I would love if you were able to get possibly any of those leaders from Pelham to come and join. That would be awesome. But I know you've worked with a lot of different districts. So if Laurence Smith's listening to this episode, it sure would be nice to have him on the list. He's on the list.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

He's on the list. Yeah, no, I think um to go back to your first question was like, you know, who is Glissy? And I said sometimes people experience us as a fitness coach and as a church and as a trusted colleague and mentor, guide on the side. Um, our hope is that in future episodes that we'll do a lot less talking and you'll get the opportunity to hear just real leader stories of people who have been in some kind of experience with us. And I think part of what you'll hear is some of those metaphors come to life. We talk a lot about what is learning? Uh, what is real learning? And it's not just you don't know something, I've told you and now you know. It's usually some kind of really messy experience, right? Um, we sometimes liken our work to uh to recovering. I'm a former retired, at one point in my life, collegiate volleyball coach and volleyball player. But when I blew out my ACL, I had this idea that my knee would just, you know, incrementally get better through rehab. But rehabbing that muscle and rehabbing that knee actually felt much more like a roller coaster. One step forward, two steps back. And I think what you'll hear through some of these stories is that when people are really trying to change how they lead, it feels a lot like doing surgery, doing going through a surgery and rehabbing that muscle to um to bring it into a different way of being than how it was before. Um, so we're excited. You'll likely hear from a superintendent. We're hopeful to pull uh principal folks across different levels of leadership and around the state to come and um do most of the talking and share with you what their experiences felt like. And uh, it's not all easy peasy. Some of it's felt hard and uncomfortable and challenging for sure.

Sponsors And Designing Better Spaces

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Well, all work that is important, it usually is hard. And uh and failure is a very important part of learning. So sometimes as the leader, you've got to step out there and be willing to try new things and being okay if you if you don't succeed the first time and learning from them. So, one of our Gill partners who also is a Glissy partner is Parish Construction. Woohoo! And uh they do a great job for Gale, but I'm gonna let them I'm gonna let you talk about uh your relationship.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Well, Parish Construction has been a phenomenal partner alongside us and GSSA, the Georgia School Superintendents Association, and how we co-host um the Women in Network gathering. So they've been very, very instrumental in encouraging that um that space and that support for women who are in the superintendency. Um but the other thing is, you know, when we go out and we work with school districts, we see the importance of those construction partners in really being listeners and thinking about how powerful the design of space is for student learning, but also these are workplaces for our educators. So going back to teacher retention and thinking about how do we make beautiful, vibrant, um, yes, you know, efficient, um, but places that feel like where you can be human and learn. And so we really appreciate just how Paris shows up that way.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

I'll shout them out in one more way, too. They are also a Base Camp and Leadership Summit sponsor. So that experience that we're able to design that feels like an executive experience is in part because of our corporate sponsors who um believe as strongly as we do that that's the type of learning and leadership experience that all educators deserve, inclusive of our teachers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

And none of us could do what we do without our corporate partners and sponsors. And so we're very appreciative of them. And uh they help us keep our costs down, bottom line. You know, we're very proud of the fact that uh, Gail, we haven't had to increase our prices in the last seven years. And we all know the price of everything is increased uh tremendously over the last seven years. But uh it's those partners and those sponsorships, you know. And Ivy Young, who's also the director and producer and editor of this podcast, she handles all of that. Shout out Ivy. So she does a fantastic job with that. And you know, the the school, when they come in and build a new school, it it's gonna last for the next 75 years in that community, and it's a source of pride. Um so it's very, very important. Um, they're a great partner. Well, we have loved having you today. Thank you for inviting us. That was fun. We're looking forward. I think we're gonna do at least two more episodes. Yeah, we're looking forward to it. And we can't wait to hear and hear from some of your leaders that are actually working with you. Perfect. Can't wait. Thanks for having us. Thank you, Gail family.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Thank you.