The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
Welcome to The Untypical Parent™ Podcast where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm here to challenge the norms and open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go to space for additional needs families to find your their backup team—the people who get it. We were never meant to go it alone! We’ll be exploring a wide range of topics, because every family is unique and there’s no one box fits all when it comes to families.
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The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
Escaping the Box Society Built for Our Kids
What happens when we stop trying to fit neurodivergent children into a neurotypical world? In this eye-opening conversation, Helen Daniel—author, late-diagnosed neurodivergent, and sensory expert, —challenges everything we've been taught about "perfect parenting" and reveals how societal expectations create unnecessary struggles for neurodivergent families.
Helen shares her theory of neurosensory divergence, which sees autism not as a deficit but as sensory abundance—a richer way of experiencing the world that brings unique ways of learning and thinking, moving away from stigma and highlighting the strengths of neurodivergent minds.
She dives into the everyday struggles neurodivergent kids face in schools, where traditional methods often don’t work for different sensory styles. Whether a child focuses deeply on one sense or takes in everything at once, both can feel out of place in typical classrooms.
This conversation is full of practical insights for parents, teachers, and professionals alike. By understanding sensory needs, we can create better learning environments, support self-advocacy, and build a world that embraces neurodivergence instead of trying to "fix" it.
Helen's book Neurosensory Divergence: Autistic Languages: A Roadmap To An Equitable Life For Autistic Children, is available to buy.
You can find Helen on her social media platforms:
Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn
I'm Liz, The Untypical OT. I work with parents and carers in additional needs and neurodivergent families to support them with burnout, mental health and well-being. When we support parents, everyone benefits.
To connect with me you'll find all my links on Linktree:
If you would like to contact me about the podcast please email me at:
Helllo@the-untypical-ot.co.uk
Welcome to the Untypical OT Talks, where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm Liz Evans, the Untypical OT, and I'm your host, and I'm here to challenge the norms and open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go-to space to find your tribe, your village, your backup team, the people who get it. We were never meant to go it alone. While my focus is often on behaviour, this podcast is about so much more. We'll be exploring a wide range of topics, because every family is unique and there's no one box that fits all. When it comes to family. In this first series, are you the Perfect Parent? Comes to family. In this first series, are you the Perfect Parent? And, spoiler alert, there's no such thing. We'll explore how we can support our kids, our families and, most importantly, ourselves. No judgment, just real talk about meeting everyone's needs without leaving anyone, especially parents, behind. Let's get curious together, especially parents behind. Let's get curious together.
Liz:This podcast episode is proudly sponsored by Something Profound. They create funny t-shirts, mugs and, more specifically, designed for neurodivergent people and those with chronic illnesses, because we all deserve a good laugh. A lovely friend of mine gifted me a mug that says not enough spoons to give a fork, and every time I use it it makes me smile. It's such a great reminder to embrace the chaos with a little bit of humour. Want to grab your own? Or know a friend who could do with a laugh? Head over to somethingprofoundcouk and use the code LIZUOT. It's case sensitive, so you'll need to use capital letters for your 15% off your order. And don't forget to follow Sam, the founder of Something Profound. You'll find her on Instagram and Facebook at something underscore profound underscore clothing. If you've got something to say, say it with something profound.
Liz:I'm so delighted today to welcome Helen Daniel to the Untypical OT Talks podcast. Helen Daniel is a late diagnosed neurodivergent, author, trainer and public speaker. She's also a former teacher and part of a fully neurodivergent family. Helen strives to empower families and her neurodivergent kin through sharing her knowledge and support. Helen developed the theory of neurosensory divergence, shedding light on the way neurodivergent languages develop through unique pattern spotting. She also advocates for differentiated sensory-based teaching strategies to be brought into the education system. Helen, thank you so much for joining us today and welcome to the podcast. Helen, thank you ever so much for joining me today on the Untypical OT Talks podcast. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to have you and lovely to have you.
Liz:We've got our first series, which is called Are you the Perfect Parent, and you've really kindly agreed to come on and chat to us about all sorts of things. I know we're going to have so much to talk about, especially kind of with your kind of sensory hat on and thinking about that. That gets me all excited as well. So we've got things to talk about and I know lots of things about neurodivergence and all lots of amazing things. So I know we're gonna have a great chat. But I always kick off every single one of my podcasts with the first question. I don't even let people get in and comfy, helen. I just say to them Helen, are you the perfect parent?
Helen:I love this question, um, so I knew you were going to ask me this question. I asked my son and what came out of his mouth was brilliant because it's he's, I've obviously embedded it. And he said Well, there's no such thing as perfect, is there? It doesn't exist. So you can be pretty good like you are, but yeah, it doesn't exist. So you can be pretty good like you are, but yeah, it doesn't exist.
Liz:and I was like oh, helen, is that when you have one of those moments, you used to think I've done it all right?
Helen:yeah, we did. We're doing okay, yeah, yeah, it was really really beautiful, but I, I I'm very much like perfection is a social construct. We've constricted it. As human beings, we've decided that there is this concept of perfection and we've also decided what perfection looks like. So we have said perfection looks like the way a typical or neurotypical not that I believe that. Yeah, we've constructed this idea that there's a typical person yeah who can do typical things in the world.
Helen:Um, so they get up at I don't know six o'clock in the morning and they go and get everything ready. Everything's prepared in the morning for their children and everything looks tidy. And we have magazines that tell us this is how a house looks. Look how beautiful. It's all just made up, because those houses either don't look like that the majority of the time or they've got housekeepers or people who help them to get their houses to look like that and we're all trying to reach this standard. Yeah, that is just. It's just fake and made up, and I don't. That is part of a lot of the neurodivergent communities issues is around this idea that there is a perfect parent, there is a perfect house, there's a perfect life and it's enshrined in books and documents, and we're like, oh, that's what we're supposed to do because I was going to say to you then where do you think that comes from?
Liz:where do you think we get that sense? Of it goes right through from.
Helen:If you think about this is my favorite thing to talk about. So I would. I love, I want this to be like ingrained in people's psyche. When you have a baby and, um, you are told, because we have nct, you are told when you have a baby, this is the experience you'll have and this oxytocin will kick in and the birth will be like having a flower birth, like blooming out of you.
Liz:They lied about that bit.
Helen:And if you don't have like, in the past we would have had elders.
Helen:We would have seen people having babies and we would have been in community of people having babies, seen that, seen what the process is and understood it from lived experience. Yeah, and understood also that maybe in our family who's neurodivergent, that birth might look different because you have all kind of sensory experiences around that birth. So the actual birth is if you're in a hospital, the costing of sensory input in the first place, peopling nurses that you don't know the whole situation is, can be quite traumatizing, and then you, the birth can be incredibly painful and difficult or it doesn't have to be, but it can be, yeah, and we don't discuss that. So how do you learn that, as a neurodivergent person, that actually my experience might be different when you come to breastfeed it might have a sensory situation, the baby might have sensory, so they might not be able to feed.
Liz:That's not discussed anywhere no, and there's all these idealistic that they talk about, even just like the breast things. I remember that, as you know, when I first started with my boys is that I almost felt like I there was no other option. You had to breastfeed. That was it because that was the only way.
Helen:And if you didn't and you veered away from that, that again was somehow imperfect and, and it doesn't matter how many people tell you, oh, it's okay, like you know you, there'll be the odd voice that will be like it's okay, you can bottle feed, it's okay. You still feel like you have this vision because it's been instilled in you. You see it in the media, you see it in baby books, you see it in everything in magazines. You buy those magazines. They're baby magazines. It's all in there like how an ideal birth or birthing situation is, and we don't tell. It's almost like we're fearful of telling the truth about it's, admitting it and um, either admitting it or scaring the other person because they might have a birth, that's okay, but they might not.
Helen:And actually it's very important that people understand there are different types of birth. They look different and then when you go into so we now have these early years, foundation stage things that go from birth to five and onwards and they script out a neurotypical development. So this is when your child will potty train. This is when your child will start to speak. This is when your child will. It's literally a government document that tells us this is what your baby will do. Like. That's crazy, isn't it? Because human beings don't, human babies do not follow a script they don't no they just they don't.
Helen:And and I always say to my child, I'm like you, you didn't go abc, you went a, b, 12, 10, c, z, and I think the only really positive thing from my point of view is I. So I read some, some like articles and things that were like this is a red flag, so if your child doesn't wave, this is a red flag. Yeah, yeah, and that's a red flag is a very negative thing. Yeah, it's a red flag, but luckily, because I'm quite open-minded, I was like well, he's high-fiving, so I don't care. Yeah, yeah, like it's a different way of doing it.
Helen:I like that, and there were all sorts of things like that. Now I do remember having moments where I was like, oh, but I wasn't really. I think I already having done teacher training, being neurodivergent myself, having been in classrooms with children who had sensory differences, I was already on that pathway of hold on. Something's not right here in the way we are explaining childhood.
Liz:Yeah, yeah, yeah where did that kind of confidence come from, though, helen? Because you sound like when you're talking around, you know with your own kids and stuff. Is that there's a confidence there in you? Was that always there, that you kind of?
Helen:So it's hilarious that, like I'm not a confident person, so I've lived with severe anxiety my entire life because I was neurodivergent and went through school Because I think as well. Something we don't talk about is generational trauma of being neurodivergent. So our parents are trying to also fit us into boxes. And when we don't fit into boxes, in the old ways of parenting you push that more and you try to fit them because you want, you believe that's the right thing to do. And we still have that where parents are like I need my child to fit into school, I need my child because there isn't anything else at the moment.
Liz:Yeah, and that's a scary place to be, isn't it?
Helen:I think I'm like that from my experience and so I would say so my confidence that people see because they see me get up on stage and talk about neurodivergence and they see I've written a book and all of those things um, it's born out of now being in alignment yeah okay, I am trying to teach people that I I get it.
Helen:I'm like. I'm like I can see why this isn't working. I can see why neurodivergent children in school is not working. I can explain it. I understand why. I've always been really interested in how people tick, how people work, love unpicking that. So, as a neurodivergent person, the more I learn, the more confident I am.
Helen:When I first had my child, I had a difficult time at the beginning. Yeah, and everyone was expecting me to like sail into motherhood because I was so child orientated and I had a difficult birth and therefore I had trauma from that. Yeah, and then it made it challenging at the beginning, but I was always there, I was always present. I was always wanting this beautiful moment and it started to come to fruition and the more, the more I became myself again and connected and became the mother I wanted to be and dreamt of being, and I was like I don't know how do I explain this. I just felt like I had the chance to make a life for this child that fitted him rather than him fitting the life, and I knew I don't know what it is.
Helen:You asked me what is it? I don't know what it is? It's just something where I'm like, yeah, no, do you know what I'm thinking? What, go on, I'm thinking? Is it? Because at the beginning I think this is what it is. Here we go, go on. At the beginning I went with what other people told me to do, because I wasn't very well and I was trying to fit in and it hurt my heart and I had had that in teaching. It was hurting me to do those things. So when I'm, when I'm doing things against what is right for my child, I can feel it in the soul of me and so I learned well, if it feels good, yeah, and if we are both of us are regulated and calm, then that's the, that's where we should be going, yeah so it's learning to trust yourself, yeah and not.
Liz:I've got. I know what this should feel like and this doesn't feel right and I think that that happened throughout the journey.
Helen:So there were therapies that I was offered, that we did that. Even at the time I was like so I remember being in speech and language and the therapist asking a question, my child answering, answering in a way that I thought was beautiful, but it wasn't in context that she was thinking oh. So she said no, no, no, that's wrong. And I was like and that happened continuously and I just thought, well, he's not gonna want to answer any questions because you're telling him what he thinks and believes is wrong. Yeah, but it's not wrong, it's just different.
Liz:Yeah, yeah yeah, I was just thinking when you were talking then about your diagnosis, so when did you get that? Helen did you get that kind of before you had your, your child, or later? Or because I'm thinking about how that impacts on our parenting and and kind of knowing. I even know we've come from a dyslexia point of view and got my dyslexia diagnosis late, but I kind of almost suddenly went oh that's who I am, and I've suddenly started to do stuff that I would never have done 10 years ago.
Helen:Never have done so I think a massive turning point for me was when I did my master's in aggressive autism studies, because I did it with Dr Luke Bearden yeah, who is just amazing, yeah and um, everything he was talking about was resonating for my family. But hilarious, this, and I did this in my 40s yeah so hilariously.
Helen:I was like, okay, I can see it in my child. Other family members didn't. I kind of knew ADHD, but I didn't think I had the autistic side and I was like, uh, no. And then I did my course with Jodie Clark, who, so we were having conversations and then Joe you know, it's Jordan James now, uh, the autistic photographer, yes, yes, yeah came and gave a talk and he gave a talk about his profile, his life. He was like, oh, I loved poetry. And I noticed, um, like poetry was part of my childhood and I used to use it to regulate. And I was like, oh, I did that.
Helen:And then he was describing how he would get heightened about things and I was like, oh, I do that, just kept going and going and I was like, oh, I do all this. And I just turned to Jodie I can't, I can't remember why, but I just said to her are you good at maths? He said something about not being good at maths. I was like, I'm not good at maths, but I'm good at all these other things. And I just was like, oh, and that's really where I started to notice about the link between sensory and pattern spotting and I was like, well, I have that and that's more on the autistic side. Oh, but it looks completely different to anything that's in the books about what an autistic child looked like at that point. Um, and then, through having done that, I went and got a diagnosis and you know, the diagnosis was autistic ADHD um, you got a diagnosis of both at the same time so mine is a done by a clinician but a non-clinical, so I could get both at the same time.
Helen:So it can't be used to get medical assistance or anything like that but it wasn't for that reason.
Liz:It was yeah, yeah, an identification.
Helen:Um, and definitely, definitely. I don't know how about you, but once I had that diagnosis, I started to unpick so much and part of you grieves for, not for the fact you are those things but angry too.
Liz:I got angry about what I had kind of maybe missed out on and that I could have gone down a completely different route had I known. Yes, and.
Helen:I and I actually didn't just come out with that diagnosis because I um then had further um assessments during my course and I have it across the board dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia. I was like yay, I always say in my talks, I got four marks for the first time ever so what age were you at this point when you got these diagnoses, helen?
Liz:how old were you?
Helen:if you don't mind me asking that's really. No, that's fine, I think I was.
Liz:I think I want to say 40, 41 okay, yeah, similar age to me when I had mine.
Helen:Yeah, okay, so that was post you having children, so you had your child, and then diagnoses came later yeah, and I think I think, having taught, having worked with children for quite a long time prior, always in my classroom, if children had sensory differences, there was one child who needed to touch my knee all the time on the carpet just to feel okay, and I was fine with that, whereas other teachers were not fine with that. They were like you know, you shouldn't be touching and push the hand off. And I just thought, well, why not? So I I was never trained before in sensory, but I just got it. I was like, well, probably because I experienced it to a certain extent. Um, I think I experienced it in a different way to some of my family members. Um, so I talk about the fact that when it was COVID and everyone had their masks on, I didn't know what anyone was saying because, I'm trying to take in a lot of information from their moving of their lips, their mouth.
Helen:I find it really hard when people don't look at me, whereas my partner's the exact opposite. So it's fun in our house. He needs to be looking away and doing something else like and you need him looking at you whereas, you know, with children I'm like, I know that, I know that children need to look away. Some children have sensory profiles where they need to look away in order to concentrate, whereas with my partner I can't just be like, yes, that's okay, I can't give him the same.
Liz:I think that's quite common, isn't it?
Helen:the same patients, and I should, because it's the same um. But, yeah, I, I think that I can't remember what we were talking about. I think that the confidence comes from um. Oh no, we were talking about diagnosis, weren't we?
Liz:yeah, we were talking about it and, yeah, just when that kind of came in, I was. I suppose the link I was trying to make for me was whether having your diagnosis helped with your confidence in parenting and being able to trust that. You talked about your gut feeling and it hurting in your heart when it wasn't right. That did that. Knowing yourself to another level, I suppose, or a bit more in depth, help with that confidence.
Helen:So I think the biggest thing and I think the biggest thing that can help anybody and something that I want to go on and train around is around social construct. Okay, around this idea that society has created, like we human beings have created, this idea that this is what school looks like and actually it doesn't have to look like this. Yeah, um, yeah, so that that it it turned my life on its head because I always knew that it didn't, we didn't fit. Yeah, I couldn't verbalize and now I can, and I, you know, put it in my book and and that has given me the confidence. What it's given me the confidence to do is twofold. So it's given me the confidence to be able to put it across to the wider community about. You know, we don't have to fit in these boxes and we should never have been fitting into boxes.
Helen:And the other thing is so we decided when I saw this, the beginnings of trauma in my family members due to school, and it wasn't the people around that child. This is really important to understand the people around the my child wanted the best for him and they were amazing and they loved him so much, so much so that they were emotional and upset when I said, you know, take him out, but I wanted to take him out before it escalated and I had read enough, learnt enough, experienced enough to know and was a teacher as well that a solid sense of self and is the building blocks for everything else. Yeah, and a neurodivergent child having a solid sense of self in school is a hard thing because we literally have the national curriculum and the eyfs that say these are neurotypical targets, these are the targets we want you to meet, and so, even if you have amazing teachers, you're still trying to get them to meet neurotypical targets and it's so hard, doesn't it?
Liz:it's really interesting. You touch on the trauma side of stuff, I think, because there's a lot of my son's out of school, um, we can't find a school that can meet his needs at the moment, and so he learns at home from an atos package, which people that have tuned in this podcast probably heard me talk about. But that's educated another other than at school, um, and academically he was doing brilliantly, he was hitting all their milestones and actually was great to have in the class because he was top of this set and top of that set.
Liz:But emotionally I had a child that was in bits um huge masker, so it was yeah masking um and the trauma that happened for him in that in in that was huge and the sensory aspect of school was ginormous and, like you say, I had so many people in that school that were lovely people trying really hard to make things better for him so that he could stay. But actually in the end it was the environment. It was the environment and they couldn't. It was the building. You know little corridors he'd be like there's too many, they're too close to me. It was, it was so difficult. The trauma is. So you know, if I could go back and change things, helen, yeah, that should be the winner, but I've given myself.
Helen:You don't know, and I think that is part of, at the moment, our journey as noradivergent families. It is not knowing because we haven't got documents that tell us about noradivergent development. We haven't got these documents that say, actually, your child should be doing, you know, socializing in this way, or they should be in a building that looks like this. We don't have that structure to look at and go, oh, this isn't meeting their needs. So part of our journey is having to get to the point where we're like this is not okay anymore and what it's so difficult?
Helen:Because at the moment as well, the government is talking about all children should be in mainstream, more children should be in mainstream, and I feel like the premise behind it is we're going to make mainstream so inclusive that it will be right for all children, but they're not anywhere near that yet. Be right for all children, but they're not anywhere near that yet. So, you know, forcing children to be in a situation that's not appropriate for them, um, it needs all of our voices all at once to sort of say this is not okay. And we have rallies and we have things, but it feels like we have pockets of people and we need all of us together, all of our voices voice yeah, collective voice yeah and.
Liz:I remember you and I having a conversation about that, didn't we? Because of my son and he's really struggled and he won't mind me saying that he's really struggled and he won't mind me saying that he's really struggled coming to terms with the diagnosis of being autistic and when he talked to him it was very much. If I had a choice, I would choose not to be, and that breaks my heart. You talk about. You know you're a heart-hurter. That makes my heart hurt Because I think it's you, but he sees it as something Separate.
Helen:Yes, and I think that makes him amazing and that's a huge part again of the way we've framed it for so long. But I, you know, if, um, if, when, when I think of being autistic, I think of it as a sensory difference, primarily because if you think of your everybody's senses as being on a mixing desk, yeah.
Helen:And everybody has a slightly different mixing desk that they start life with and then that means that you home in on different patterns of learning because your mixing desk is higher, say in your visual sense. So you're going to hone in on a pattern of written codes, maths, you know whatever it is, grammar, spelling, and it can be different for everybody. Um, like I honed in on rhyming words and became, you know, wrote, poetry. So it's so different for everybody, that pattern spotting. But it means that you then learn differently and that's really cool because it means that you can, you know, you can think, you can look at the world differently and you will have different talents and skills to the majority.
Helen:You might be really, really, really capable in some areas and then there'll be other areas that you won't be as capable in, and a lot of. So in my book I talk about the fact that motor divergence, motor differences, can alter your sensory system as well, so it can impact the way you hear, it can impact the way you see, and motor and sensory sit alongside in lots of neurodivergent profiles. And again in school we have these motor expectations handwriting, pe, yeah, pe yeah, just to me shudder them with the handwriting.
Helen:Yeah, um, yeah and they don't fit our profile. Basically, they don't fit our profile and therefore we feel like we're failing in those areas. But we're not failing as a human being, yet we're made to feel like we're failing as a human being. Um, I want to. So a really funny thing is I would go into ehcp meetings and, um, the ot would just see me and go yeah, we're going to take the handwriting target out of the ehcp, aren't we? We feel like, yeah, we're going to put a typing one in there or we're gonna put something else in there. We're gonna put, um, you can, so what? Oh, you might love this, I don't know. Um, we, we had OT, we had all of those things going on and, um, when we left, um I remember the OT was like, well, what, how are we going to meet those OT targets? And I was like he's going to be climbing trees, he's going to be whittling wood, he's going to be doing all kinds of things.
Liz:Actually, he's ended up doing nerf gunning and um archery yeah and his handwriting has improved and you know that that makes my heart sing when I hear that, because that, well, I could get onto a whole thing about where ot's gone. But actually, when you take ot back to its core, it's about activity, yeah, um, and finding something that the person, yeah, wants to do. And we get this. Amazing opportunities ot's to help people find a way to do the things that they want to do using the amazing skills and strength that they've got to do it. And yet we've somehow moved into this very kind of prescriptive medical model way of working and I, yeah, well, hence the untypical IT yeah, and I it.
Helen:There's so many things that can be done in school that are fun and you know easy, easy wins that can be done. And the other thing is, when he's writing now, he's not writing for any other purpose than things that he loves to write about. So he just writes reams and reams of like things that he wants to write about because you know that's enjoyable, I I going back to this idea of understanding that, if you see, if you see autistic traits as very sensory based, it's very motor and sensory based. That impacts neurology or the opposite way around. However, it all ties together.
Helen:It removes the stigma somewhat, because if you say, oh, I'm, I, I'm hard of hearing, I, I, I'm gonna get the terminology wrong, but if you say, um, I'm gonna have to say hard of hearing, that's not the right terminology, sorry, um, then people, there's not a stigma that sits alongside that. Yeah, if somebody says they're deaf, they're not like I don't want to feel like I'm deaf. So if we think of autistic sensory as this moreness yeah, I call it sensory abundance in my book, as this moreness, yeah, then it removes the stigma. It's just, oh, I have more ability to take in sensory information, um, and it alters my learning profile.
Liz:Yeah, and that might be something really and I am, I confess, to lots of people that come on to the podcast. I haven't read your book because I don't do reading. Um, basically it's the short answer, um, but I'm just, I prefer this. This is much better for me. Chatting, reading, no, um, and even kind of the audio books I could also struggle with. It's funny enough, the audio books I struggle with, but in a conversation I will learn much more and will understand much more than I will from an audio book where they're just talking at me because I lose concentration and think about what I'm cooking for tea or whatever, um, but I was gonna to say, oh yeah, from your book.
Liz:I just wonder whether you know, thinking about parents and if say, for example, they are parenting a neurodivergent child, that actually reading your book might help with that kind of confidence and around those conversations to have with your children. Because I say we talked, didn't we? You know, you said to me that there's a whole army of us out there trying to make things different and change, and I told my son that and actually he was really reassured by that that there was these grown-up neurodivergent people that were going. Do you know what we're trying to make this different for you. Just hang in there for us if you can, and I think that gave him a sense of relief, almost, that he could kind of go. Okay, I'm going to let you grown-ups go do that bit and I'm just going to do me for a bit and get okay with me.
Helen:Yeah and that's that's a huge message. So one thing that I really want to do in the future is do more for children, where they access the information, because at the moment, there's so much going to parents, they need it directly for them.
Liz:Yeah, and they're not silly, are they kids? They can talk to them um, I have raised.
Helen:We went to a doctor's appointment and the doctor said, so, I've, I've written down some of the medical issues that we've got. Like, oh, you know, um, we went because of a throat thing, throat thing and obviously autism, and my son looked like what? And I said, oh sorry, um, yeah, my son's gonna not understand that because he doesn't think of autism as a medical issue. Um, and my son was like, no, that's not a medical issue. Um, you know, it's really good to be autistic because I've got all sorts of abilities because I'm autistic, yeah, and I have raised a child who stands up and used to stand up in assemblies in school and say, oh, I'm really good at coding because I'm autistic in school, and say oh, I'm really good at coding because I'm autistic.
Liz:And that's what we want, isn't it? As parents, you just want them to be able to go forward into the world and be able to go. Do you know what?
Helen:this is me and I'm okay with this but the saddest thing is because of those things, because, um, because he is so often unapologetically himself, he was never going to fit in the schooling system long-term, because the conversation started to turn to when we get to secondary, you know any changes schools we're going to need, you know going to need conformity.
Helen:We're going to need him not to get heightened about certain things we're going to need. And the thing is, with neurodivergent children, there's there's this thing about resilience and actually our children are incredibly resilient because they are in situations that do not serve them as sensory overwhelm situations and, um, they aren't having the same experience as a child next to them, and the child next to them is being seen as resilient and they're not, and yet they are more so. Yeah, and and to have a child who gets heightened about things, they have to, we have, we have to go through a process of them understanding their own sensory system, understanding what works for them, being able to say no to things, and that is not a thing they can do very often in schools. There are pockets of schools that enable that, but I don't know who they are and I wish we had a list of those schools.
Liz:Yep, we need schools that that celebrate neurodivergence and and create, you know, environments that suit neurodivergent students, and to do that we need to talk so much more about sensory profiles yeah, and it's funny, I think I put a post out recently on my page and I talked about the word sensory profile and actually somebody made made a comment around what is a sensory profile?
Liz:And I thought, oh, my goodness, this is not with them, with me.
Liz:I thought I haven't even explained what that is.
Liz:Um, and I sometimes I think you know it might be parents that are coming in new or maybe listening to this and neurodivergence is new to them as a world um, that actually we forget sometimes that when we talk about sensory profiles or neurodivergent stuff, that actually parents will be at the very beginning of that journey and discovery and finding stuff out, and they might not. I mean we know the links between kind of parents and children, but you know, might not know ourselves that we are neurodivergent, um, and that information that can blow your brains a bit, actually right, I remember you know might not know ourselves that we are neurodivergent, um, and that information that can blow your brains a bit, actually right, I remember, you know, thinking, even in the job that I have done and the work that I've done, the kids that I've worked with, the families that I've worked with, actually when it happened to us as a family, there was a whole nother level of learning and I don't think we talk about sensory profiles in enough detail at all.
Helen:Um, like teachers will say, oh, I differentiate the work, or I differentiate or I, or we allow sensory breaks. It's nothing, it's nowhere near what we need to be talking about. Um, when, uh, and, and one really interesting thing to think about is the fact that there's children in that classroom sitting there not knowing that they are having a different sensory experience. I didn't know I was having a different sensory experience. So, when you were talking earlier about I can't listen to a podcast, I'm not, I can't, I can't listen to an audiobook. Yes, I'm the same. Yeah, and I'm more of a multi-sensory person. So, and that's why I'm quite emotional about things, because I have to have an almost emotional experience, multiple senses have to be triggered at once for me to embed something. Yeah, and that, if you think about, if I think about my geography lesson, where I sat down and drew isobars and a teacher talked at me about isobars, that didn't do it for you.
Helen:I'm with you on that one um, so I needed an immersive education the whole way through. And as you get older, that stops being as immersive. When you're younger, for some reason. Early years we're like yes, it needs to be immersive, and this is how children learn. And all of a sudden, at year, one.
Helen:It's like no, they don't learn like that and there are so many different sensory profiles in that classroom so there'll be some children who really work well with a teacher standing at the front and talking. But the way we deliver school and the teacher at the front talking constantly and giving knowledge to the children and them writing it down, works for a lot of typical brains, because they can switch easily between what the teacher's saying, what's on the board, their writing, all those sorts of things, whereas neurodivergent children, if you're a monoprocessor, which means you need to focus in on one more, on one sense than the others, you might need to look away from the teacher in order to take in what they're saying auditory, but then you're not picking up on what's on the board or the other thing I talk about is the fact that if you're taking in more sensory information as this mono processor, you can hear. You can hear the wires buzzing you can see the lights flickering, you can hear children outside.
Helen:So how much focus can you have on that teacher, because you can't block everything else out? And then you've got your multi-sensory children who are already daydreaming, and then the teacher tells them off because they're daydreaming. And then they come back to this teacher and then the teacher's still talking. You're not even taking it in because it's not multi-sensory. Yeah, and if that teacher turns away to the board to point that something is still talking, you've missed a whole load. Yeah, so you've got children in the classroom having this experience and finding it really challenging and they don't know. Yeah, all they know is why can't I do what they're doing next to me?
Liz:yeah, and then the impact goes inwards, doesn't it? So then it's, it's all internalized. It must be me. There's something wrong with me. Everybody else can do it. I can't do it. Therefore, and again, you can probably relate that back to your school days. I certainly can, thinking I can't. So I'm a bit thick. These spelling tests that they've made me do over and over, and over and over again, and I keep getting them wrong. And then I'm getting wrong that maybe stand on my chair, yeah, the whole class um, that was my times table, yeah yeah, I still can't do my sevens no, I don't think I can do many of them.
Helen:They're mathematicians in my family but I'm not, yeah, and if you look at my if I always do this for teachers when I'm giving my talks, I'm like if you look at my diagnosis and you had me in your classroom, you would assume that I was gonna really struggle through life. I've done two PGCs, I've done a master's, I've written a book only after I found the things that worked for me, the areas I could hyper focus in. You know, neurodivergence is my hyper focus and people and that's my hyper focus. But we never talk about the fact that we don't do sociology as a subject for young children. We don't do psychology as a subject for young children. So we't do psychology as a subject for young children. So we're not unpicking these things from the get-go. We're not looking as children. We're not looking at why is this happening in the playground? Why is this happening um and so, for those children, like I was who, that would have been brilliant.
Helen:Where's our moment to shine? If you're a, if you unpick how humans learn, you know, in those subjects that we're given, I didn't get my moment to shine. I'm a caring person. I didn't really. There's nothing in our education system that says you know we do PSHE, but there's no exam in PSHE. You're not like, oh she's, you know, really good at. So if you were going to be a nurse, if you're going to be a teacher, if you're going to be an OT, if you're going to be a psychologist, yeah, yeah, and it's funny, isn't it, when we're thinking about the jobs that we've kind of gone into.
Liz:You know, I think when I, when I went into it, it was the practical side of it that I knew a bit. Like you're talking about that kind of multi-sensory learning, I needed to go out and do it and feel it and be it and stuck me in a lecture theatre learning for three years. I wouldn't have lasted. No, I mean, I found it hard enough, as it was being undiagnosed dyslexic but producing reports and essays that were just anyway, but being able to do and experience, it was what I needed. But I stumbled across that that wasn't. I didn't know what I needed. I just ended up there somehow and I think I was lucky actually to end up there, and some people aren't so lucky. They haven't.
Helen:They don't get to that point and if we talked about sensory profiles more and unpicked each, each child like what? What are your interests and where could that lead?
Liz:yeah, but also kind of from a protective factor as well. We could go into sensory stuff, couldn't we, helen? But from a protective point of view, you know emotionally for us that if you know your sensory profile and you know what's triggering and difficult for you and you know what kind of replenishes and makes you feel better and regulates you, imagine knowing that as a kid. How amazing would that be that by the time you got to be in 40, like in us in our 40s, that we haven't done all that horrible stuff. That.
Helen:I and and the really exciting thing is, there are children I have worked with, there are children in my family, there are children that I know that Jodie's worked with who have that language. My child has that language, but they should all have it. They should all have it. That's the thing, yeah. And when that revolution happens it's unstoppable. Because if that many neurodivergent children are saying this is my sensory profile and I know that X, y and z, you know, will regulate me, and obviously alongside that you have children who are non-speaking. But again, I think, observing and working alongside on sensory profiles with non-speaking families, parents, huge, yeah, and you'll see kids, even the non-speaking kids that will.
Liz:They'll navigate towards something and you think, there it is, that's what, that's what they need, because the ability to say that, yeah, and the ability so um with aac's?
Helen:I can't remember. Go and tell me what the acronym is no dyslexic augmentive.
Liz:Yeah, yeah.
Helen:So the, the apps that you use when you're non-speaking to be able to communicate yeah, it communicates for you, um, to have the ability to say no, yeah, to be able to say no and afford to be respected. Because that child is probably saying this is too much, and that is one thing that our, our children don't get enough um support with being able to say no. And that is something that I remember, that you know my child was saying I can't do that. I'm, I'm nor a divergent, so I can't do that. And the comment was sometimes oh, I think he's using it as an excuse and I sort of explained that he doesn't. That doesn't make sense, because he loves being at school, he loves doing school. He's not going to use that as an excuse. He's telling you he is actually overwhelmed and that he's using his voice. And that he's using his voice and actually, if we can respect that, that gives them a sense of self-belief, self-understanding, um, but the opportunity to do that in school is limited.
Liz:Yeah, really hard. I'm just thinking if you were to go, if the big parents listening to this, helen, and they'll be thinking, whoa, I've just had my mind or brains blown by this. So there's so much now I need to go off and learn about. If you could give a parent one tip that maybe struggling and finding things really hard, and maybe we focus on parents that are in neurodivergent families, so maybe they've got kids that are divergent, or they themselves and the kids and all they could be a mix within that family what would be the one tip you would give them?
Helen:so I the biggest thing, I think, for all of us that we talk about is we have this gut instinct yeah you have this gut instinct.
Helen:It might be pushed down, but you have a feeling when you're going against something that works for your child yeah and we, almost for so long we think to ourselves you know, I I have to try and fit the narrative, I have to try and fit what other people are telling me, yeah, yeah. But if you have a gut instinct and other people are telling you something, just sit with that feeling and try and understand that what you're being told might be right for a neurotypical child, but what you're being told might not be right for your child or your family or your situation. And if we can all access those resources that, like my book, like your ot, like so many advocates out there, heidi Maver, and if we can access those resources that give us that confidence to go, you know what we need to do things differently that's the tip.
Helen:I would give.
Liz:And there is that coming, isn't it? Like you said, there's a group of people out there, you know, experts in their arena and in their special interests and in their hyper-focus. You know that we are out there talking about it more and more, and I think that was a big thing for me was finding other people that were feeling similar to me, that I wasn't on my own and I hadn't come across that really until I had kind of got onto the internet and I'm not a massive fan of social media and there's pros and cons to it, um, but it did give me access to other parents that have been in those situations. You've been where we are and you know you don't always, you don't always find that at the school gates, and I swear I used to find the school gates particularly difficult, but we won't go into that and reasons why. But anyway, um, but it's finding those other people and those other voices, isn't it? And that other experience to be able to go. Do you know what?
Helen:actually, I am right and I'm giving yourself that permission to go with your gut and I think when we talked about like elders of the village, there are, so I advocate, because I heard Luke Bearden talk, because I heard Heidi talk, because I'd heard the autistic advocate talk, um, and then there are people now who are advocating because they heard me talk and it. It's like that um, and there are so many voices now and I think that's the thing that we need to really feel like there is movement. It feels like moving a juggernaut at the moment, trying to change education, but there are so many of us out there that feel the same way. At some point we will come together and change things, and I do think that getting those things to children themselves as well, yeah, I love that idea of you know, having those conversations with the children at a much earlier age.
Liz:I think there's there's pockets happening, um, but it's still the information that I've kind of heard being used. I kind of think, yeah, yeah, could we change the wording around that?
Helen:yeah, and I think people often do things with really good intentions yes, I agree um, but yeah, that I think, yeah, I think. Sensory profiles, getting the information to children and supporting parents in understanding that we can do things a different way, yeah, um, and that they don't need to feel any guilt around that, and if we can, all you know, raise that voice. I run I'm not very active in there at the moment, but I'm going to be again.
Helen:I run the Nora Divergent Families Wellbeing Club on Facebook and that has been a beautiful community and it's been a place where I've met other parents and other people who advocate, and you know that people can pop in there to get support and other people answer questions as well as me, because I'm not very active at the moment, but I will be back in there again.
Liz:What else is going on for you at the moment, helen? So if people have kind of listened to you today and think, actually actually do you know, I'd like to really know a bit more about Helen, obviously we'll put all your kind of links and stuff I'll put in the show notes so people can find that. But have you got anything going on at the moment? What's next for Helen Daniels?
Helen:so I have. I've been this year has been all about going out and giving talks and obviously the book came out, um, and I have been giving online talks and in-person talks. I've gone and talked at the National Education Union and I've talked at schools and things like that. Um, I have got projects coming up that I can't talk a lot about.
Helen:That's all right, that's all right but, um, I'm going to be doing a lot more collaborating with people, so that's going to be. That's exciting, yeah, really exciting, um and there. So I decided that, um, at this point, I've sort of stopped doing things with other people as much, so I'm not doing as many podcasts, I'm not doing as many talks, I'm not doing.
Helen:Well, now I feel really privileged, helen thanks, you're still coming on I think I've got my last one on the 18th of this month and everything is going to be about creating stuff that I know people really need amazing um, and and those resources for children, which I think is huge, um, so it's all in the pipeline where will people find that, helen?
Liz:so I know you don't want to talk about that at the moment, but where? So if there was to keep an eye out, would that be kind of on your website?
Helen:yeah, so there's going to be. There's going to be a new website, um, there's going to be. This is all new, um, and there's going to be. So I'll have a waiting list for certain things as well. Yeah, and my big thing is I want it to be as accessible as possible to people. So it's not. There's not going to be stupidly expensive resources or anything like that. The yeah, so the best thing to do at the moment is probably follow me on social media, because everything will be changing on there and I'll be letting people know.
Liz:It's going to be a few months yet, but if they join up with you and connect there, they'll kind of be aware of what's going on.
Helen:OTB Sensory on Instagram or on Facebook, which is under Helen Daniel, then I'll be posting information on there. I'm really excited because I, you know, working on my own projects and creating things that I feel like that. What I want to do is bridge the gap between home and school amazing and I want to bring other people in to that mission, yeah, and that's really exciting, that sounds amazing and so needed, so needed.
Liz:Helen, will you remind me of the name of your book? So people are wanting to go and find your book. Oh, is it backwards? Not for me. Oh, okay, so neurosensory neurosensory divergence, autistic languages.
Helen:A roadmap to an equitable life for autistic children.
Liz:Amazing, it's on amazon lovely, just so everyone knows they can go and find it as well. But that just leads me to say, helen, thank you ever so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on and I do feel very privileged that I got in quickly before you decided you were going to do no more podcasts. Um, luckily I sneaked in there. Thank you for having me. I love talking to you anyway. Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you ever so much.
Liz:Well, that's it for this episode of the untypical ot talks. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. Whether you're walking the dog, folding laundry or hiding in the toilet for five minutes peace and there's no judgment here I'm glad you chose to spend your time with me today. If you're a parent or a carer of a child with additional needs and you're feeling overwhelmed, burnt out or just like you need a bit of backup, I've got you and I'm here to help you find a way through the trickier stuff, like behaviour and those moments when you feel like you might just run out of steam, so you can be the parent you want to be and take care of yourself too, want to connect. You'll find me over on all the social media sites Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn where I share more tips, resources and real talk. And hey, if this episode made you laugh nod along or feel a little less alone.
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