Neurodivergence, Dadhood, Diagnosis, And Doing Your Best

What if “perfect” parenting is the wrong goal, and honest repair is the real superpower? I sit down with David, the Dad behind NeuroDad’s Diary, to explore what changes when a late ADHD diagnosis reframes years of anxiety, overwhelm, and self-critique. He shares how sensory triggers, bedtime chaos, and the relentless unpredictability of young kids land in a neurodivergent nervous system.

We unpack the invisible load many neurodivergent parents carry: the thoughts you bottle during meltdowns and the guilt that piles up when you can’t process in the moment. David’s therapy-informed micro-journaling—quick notes you revisit later—turns swirling stress into a map you can actually navigate. We also talk masking as a parent: when to contain, when to be real, and why repairs matter more than flawless reactions.

David names the isolation many fathers feel at parent groups, the stigma that says men shouldn’t struggle, and the logistics that make support hard to access. He’s candid about burnout, seasonal lows, and the rituals that help him reset—decompression time, honest check-ins with his partner, and knowing when to tag out.

If you’re a neurodivergent parent—or love one—this is the episode for you. Listen, share with a dad who needs to hear this, and if it resonates, please follow podcast and leave a review so more families can find the support they deserve.

You can find David here on Instagram - neurodadsdiary

We also spoke about David's t-shirt on the podcast, so here is a shout-out to Born Anxious. You can also find them on Instagram here

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Chapters

• 0:58 Meet David Of NeuroDad’s Diary
• 3:21 Late Diagnosis And The Lightbulb Moment
• 5:54 ADHD vs Autism: Paths To Assessment
• 9:50 Perfect Parent Myth And Real Learning
• 11:56 Triggers, Sensory Overload, And Tag Teaming
• 16:53 Experience Gap, Weaning Fears, And Anxiety
• 20:45 Routine, Flexibility, And Unpredictable Kids
• 25:53 The Invisible Load And Journaling
• 31:30 Masking As A Parent And Repair
• 36:41 Dads, Isolation, And Finding Community
• 43:35 Masculinity, Permission To Struggle, And Stigma
• 49:36 Burnout Signs, SAD, And Recovery

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:29

I'm delighted today to welcome David to the podcast. David is the dad behind NeuroDad's Diary, a storytelling and advocacy platform for neurodivergent families. Blending honesty, luxury humour, and practical survival hacks, David shares the raw, sensory-rich realities of parenting being neurodivergent. From toileting charts and emotional regulation rituals to Heartbreak and Hope. His work invites communal care, co-creation, and a gentler kind of resilience. David, welcome to the podcast. Thank you ever so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08

Well, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10

It's been so nice to have you on. I think you're going to bring a very different angle today to the podcast, which I'm really looking forward to having a conversation about because we're going to come at this from a dad's perspective. And I've had a couple of uh guys on before, dads on before, but we've not really dived into the dad perspective. And the other bit that I'm really interested in is we've had lots of parents in um that talk about their family life because their kids are neurodivergent. They also might be neurodivergent, but they're the mainly they're talking about their kids. But actually, that's slightly different for you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 1:47

Very much slightly, yeah. I'm I'm diet neurodiverse, and my kids are too young yet for diagnosis. So I've got a three-year-old daughter and an eight-month-year-old son. So at this time, too young for me to be able to know if if they aren't neurodiverse. Um, and my wife's um exploring it. Um, she's going through a referral checklist, but uh referral, um you know I mean, going through a referral. But um, yeah, I'm I'm the only woman I know of so far with it within the dynamic. So yeah, it's different, it's a different dynamic. And a lot of people that do follow me are normally the other way, it's the same kind of approach.

SPEAKER_03: 2:28

So and it often comes round the other way, doesn't it? I think as old as adults, if we're being diagnosed later in life, it's often it's coming off the back of our kids' diagnosis, and suddenly people are going, Oh, but I've done that or I do that, and suddenly there's these light bulb moments for adults going, actually, maybe I'm neurodivergent, but actually, this has happened the other way around for you. So this has happened that you so how did you get there? How did this happen, David?

SPEAKER_00: 2:54

Interesting. So I've talked about it on other podcasts, but for me it was I went to a a talk about neuro about neurodiversity with an autistic um individual um who runs a organization called Sand, um, so it's a the Society for Neurodiversity in Calderdale up in Yorkshire. Um and through that conversation, at the end I said, Oh, can I do man if I stay back and have a bit of a bit of a chat and update? She went, how long have you been diagnosed? And I was like, I mean, not diagnosed. She said, Well, you've information dumped on me throughout the thing, you've held I've held conversations ready for uh that have passed, you've you've then brought it to the table. I was like, well, I've already moved on from that. You've done a lot of autistic traits. Um do you think you you you are? And I was like, Oh I I came just to support for people I I I work with through my through work, um, through neurodiversity. I didn't expect you to even mention that. So then that that kind of laid the seed. Um I've had anxiety almost my life mental health issues. So I kind of it then kind of fed, well, actually, is it the neurodiversity that's feeding the feeding the anxiety, or is it the anxiety that's the giving the neurodiverse traits? So it it then it then just played on my mind all the time. Like, is it oh no, it's in, isn't it? Um and eventually I just said, I'm gonna have to buy the bullet and um and just have have a have a referral. Um I went away from the autistic traits. I definitely thought it was more ADHD. Um, so I went for the ADHD referral first, um, which I got diagnosed in March formally after having my assessment in January. Um, so yeah, it took a while for it to come through, but yeah, eventually got it. Um and now I'm going through the fully autism uh referral um because I scored very highly, very highly in the in the test.

SPEAKER_03: 4:57

So new for you as well, then this is not this is kind of like in the last year, very, very new, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:04

So it had been going on for quite some time because of COVID and kind of restrictions, and I had a lot of a lot of other family issues going on at the time. So I thought I won't overburden myself, I'll eventually do it. But it took me a year to fill out the forms, and that's that in itself was a bit like, well, that's maybe a DHD there, isn't it? It takes me it takes me so long to fill out the form.

SPEAKER_03: 5:27

I was gonna say to you, what do you think that might have been?

SPEAKER_00: 5:29

I couldn't even fill out the form. I was writing War and Peace for them. There's too much information here. Like you don't need to provide us all this, but yeah. So yeah, that's so very, very early doors um in in my journey, really.

SPEAKER_03: 5:45

Yeah. And I suppose the question that I ask everyone that comes on, the first question, and I've kind of diverted because I do that and I'm allowed to, it's my podcast, but I've diverted off track. Um is I always ask everyone, are you the perfect parent? So David, um, I'm really interested. Are you the perfect parent?

SPEAKER_00: 6:05

Definitely not. What is perfect? Like it's a term that I just haven't met it yet. We don't we don't do it. Like I've I try and always my utmost will try. That's all I can say is I will try the best I can because that's all we ever can do. Yeah, but I'm definitely not perfect. There's there's always things I can learn from, there's always things I can that's why that's why I have my own page, my my neurodive the neurodot diaries, because I want to know what other people are doing. Like, how are other people coping through those scenarios? Yeah, it's it's not it's not easy. Um do you think there was a big change?

SPEAKER_03: 6:45

I was gonna say, do you think there was a big change for you when you because your kids were born pre-diagnosis for you? Your kids were born, and then during that time, and though they're still little, you've now got this diagnosis, which I presume has given you a maybe a deeper understanding of you and the way that you are and what you how you do things. Has that changed? Has that changed the way you parent?

SPEAKER_00: 7:11

It has with the second, I would say, more than the third. So so the second, I'm much more aware of my my triggers and my points of where I need to, where initially I was like, why have I had to cope with the noise? Like, why is it doing my head in? Right? So I couldn't understand in the first um, so with our daughter, couldn't understand that, or it didn't make sense to me why things were so complicated, um, and why things were so difficult for me to absorb, um, like their development stages. And I was like, well, why aren't they doing that yet? Or what's going on here? Or why what I can't understand why they're upset. I can't get or empathy. I struggle with empathy quite a lot. Um, so but then second them a bit more now, like right, I'm triggered. I know I need I know what I need to do. I need to leave the room, I can get get my wife and uh pass over and let them take over. I need to calm down, I need to reconnect. Um, so I'm much more aware of it in the second in the in the second um child than I am the first.

SPEAKER_03: 8:21

That must have been hard with your first one to have those kind of feelings and and feel overwhelmed and triggered by things that kids are doing our kids do, but not knowing why. Just does that kind of go internally for you then? So it must be me, I'm the problem.

SPEAKER_00: 8:39

Definitely, yeah, yeah, definitely I'm the issue. Um, and sometimes I get that now. Like I'll say stuff to my wife, and she goes, Yeah, but you're the adult and they're the child. And I'm like, Yeah, I know, but I still can't cope with what they're doing, it's still annoying me. Um, weaning was another one. Like if when they were weaning, I I couldn't cope with that choking mechanism, or when I was like, Oh, what they're doing, are they all right? It that instant panic um was just too much. I'd have to just leave the room. Whereas now I'm a bit more like, right, it's that's what they do. It's and it's I and I've I've not had much involvement of children in my life, yeah, like bringing up other children. So I say I've got a sister, but me bringing them up, I was very much the seven-year gap between us, so I wasn't really involved in much of the upbringing. Um, whereas I think my wife's got many like nieces and nephews and things, so she's been used to feeding them, bringing them up, getting them changed. I was like, is that too gentle? Is that too hard? Is that what what am I doing? Um, but you learn as you go. Um, and I feel like I've I've managed, but it's it has been a steep learning curve for me.

SPEAKER_03: 9:53

And it sounds like that anxiety about like you're saying, you're being really worried about something and not knowing, is this you know typical? Do I is do I need to be worried about this? And it sounds like some of that might have been kind of neurodivergent based, but some of that actually was just experience, like as you say, your your wife had been through having been around other kids, and it was a bit more kind of like ah, you know, it's just normal.

SPEAKER_00: 10:16

That's fine. And there's always so much books you can read. Like, I was given books when I first started, they're like, Read this book about being a new dad, and I'm reading it. And I'm like, Yeah, that makes sense, but in techalitas, will that will that come across? Like, probably not. Yeah, like it's that, isn't it? I think the expectation sometimes is people think, well, this is what perfect is. That's what the book says, that's what their experience is when you experience the world completely different. It's it's complete minefield for us, it's not the same. Um, so yeah, it and a lot of people when I speak to FGP, there's a lot of people coming forward recently for for diagnosis because they've said they've had children, and then suddenly worlds, their structure, the routine, everything has gone out the window, and that's when they've realized that there's absolutely more to their anxieties and their concerns. It's actually a neurodiverse condition that's their understanding.

SPEAKER_03: 11:13

And that kind of makes sense, doesn't it? I suppose because you know, when we're when when we're kind of functioning on our own, we kind of have made life fit us, and then these kids come along and blow that apart. Nothing goes as it should. All the plans that you had have gone out the window. You can plan the most perfectly planned day, but the kids don't get the memo about that, and it all gets tracked out the window, and suddenly it's having to change everything. And you know, if that if you're the kind of personality trait as well that that really struggles with that, that's really hard.

SPEAKER_00: 11:50

But this is now there's a there's a more of an odd approach, there's more of an autistic kind of age because I struggle with knowing do I prefer a routine? Or when I don't have a routine, then I'm then I'm off I'm off the rails anyway. So it's sometimes I like a routine, sometimes I don't like a routine. So that's where I'm like it there's something much more, uh and then and there are always a with a um with a neurodivest because there's always normally another one somewhere. So I think, yeah, well, I'll I'll have a look for a I'll have a look, see this is the other one since I scored, but um yeah, things just snow sort of so I was like you think you think you've got it and it's nice gone. You think you understand what's going on with the kids and you think, right, this is what's happening, then they just throw a complete curve or this might also say it's a random thing, sometimes it upsets me off and how she how she's what does she mean?

SPEAKER_03: 12:44

And and you kind of before we we recorded, you sent me some information and we I was just looking through some of the things that you um we talked about what we might talk about today, and you talked about something specific called the invisible load. And I'm really interested in what you've meant by that. So you talked about the invisible load of neurodivergent parenting. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

So for me, I think people don't understand that a lot of the time there's a lot of things that have snowball and pile up on us that we as neurodivergents want to keep bottled because we think actually that's not normal to think that, or that's not we it's a weird thing to say out loud. So we don't say it, we keep it, and that load builds and builds and builds and builds. It's something I've talked about in therapy loads where I don't deal with it then because want to deal with it because I'm dealing with a scenario of a ch of a child, or it's something that's triggering me, I don't want to focus on it. So I bottle it up, put it in this invisible load, and eventually it keeps building and building and building and building, and eventually I break because I'm not dealing with that scenario. The way I tried to deal with it was writing it down. So I'd say, right, I'm struggling with this scenario right now, I'm gonna have to just write this down in on a note somewhere. Normally do it on my phone, just write this is what I dealt with, and then leave it for a minute, get rid of what I'm dealing with, and then when when there is a cam period, I can go back to that load and go, right, absolutely. This is what I need to unpack now. I've got time, yeah, I've got the kids are asleep, I'm um sat up awake, still thinking about it. Let me let me let me look at it, and that's normally when I create my content from that. Because I then normally think, well, that's bothered me today. I need to understand that, I need to explore it, I need to do some reading, I need to unpack it a little bit. Um, and then I might not get the the post finished because I might fall asleep, like that, which is what I often do. I I start doing something and then I go zone now, and that's what I did last night, writing loads of the content that I wanted to do. Really wanted to get it out there, woke up this morning, four o'clock with it still still in my hand. I thought, well, that didn't that didn't happen. I'll do that tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03: 14:57

And I suppose I'm wondering away whether that it's there's something quite therapeutic about that, being able to write it and actually is then giving your chance your brain a chance to go actually going to unload that bit to that piece of paper, which then gives you the ability to then rest, I suppose, because I think often with ADHD, you know, our thoughts are racing and running and sleeping can be tricky. Um yeah, so that kind of it sounds like you've come across when where did you come across that strategy? Did someone suggest it to you or is it something that you've kind of created yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 15:31

Yeah, no, it was in a therapy, I have to say. It was when we're talking about journaling. Um, and I said, Oh, I struggled to journal because it's all creation. So what do you mean creative? So, well, I thought journaling was here to like make it all colourful and pretty. And and she was like, No, just write out what you think, like even if it's just annoyed, like you just put I'm annoyed, and then you can look back at that and go, what why was I annoyed? At what time was I annoyed? Why did that kind of um manifest in itself? So yeah, it was a it was a therapy uh strategy that they mentioned. Um, and it's it worked worked really well for me um to a degree, depends what how much is going on. If there's a lot piling up, then writing it down is just me like, well, that's another thing to add to the list, so there's too much going on.

SPEAKER_03: 16:18

So then it becomes a demand almost that I've got to do it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:22

Yeah, so sometimes it becomes a bit too much, so you have to then just take it with a pinch of salt. Sometimes like, well, that has annoyed me, but um, there's nothing really I can do about it. Okay, so I just have to I have to like it and lump it. Um and is there yeah, it's that it is that just kind of constant piling it on, um, that I felt like I do anyway, I bottle it up being a man. We do that anyway. We don't talk about it, we don't get it out, we bottle it up, and then the ADHD layers on top of that, which is then an additional because then you start thinking of the RSD, you start you start thinking, oh, rejection sensitivity, have I have I said too much, have I done too little, or what should I have done different through that? Then you start to overanalyse it, then you then go into um decision paralysis, then it all starts to snub, so it's easy sometimes just to you have to write it down and then find a time when you can unpack it.

SPEAKER_03: 17:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then what I'm kind of interested, I suppose, because it sounds a bit like I I do a bit of talking around masking as parents, is that you know there's quite a lot of talk out there about masking as neurodivergent individuals that we mask. You know, I mask as a dyslexic, I'm sure you mask as well. But actually, there's elements in our parenting where we need to mask, and then there are times when actually we might be alright not masking, but we still mask. Um and I it's a really difficult thing to weigh up that about how far do I mask? But actually, what I don't want to do is show my kids that I'm not real, so you know, and it that depends on their age, that depends on what they're you know, what they're like as a a child, a person, you know, are they very anxious kids? You don't want to overload them with stuff, but actually how where do I go with that? How do I I make that all right? And it sounds like you're kind of you've acknowledged that there's some things that you feel that you kind of hold on to, but then you've found an outlet for it. So what you haven't done is gone, I'm just gonna hold on to it, because eventually it does kind of either come out the top or it makes this really. Yeah, but you found a way of letting that out in a much more controlled way.

SPEAKER_00: 18:38

Try to, yeah, try to. You're not perfect yet, don't you? Yeah, well, I shouldn't say stuff like I'll say stuff like the worst one I feel I've said lately is what's what what why are you feeling like that? What's wrong? And I've said that, but then my daughter's linked that, and I asked Google for everything. I'm always talking to like, tell me the time, tell me the weather, tell me so because I just need it like yesterday. I said, as I talked to you earlier before the phone was out, so I lost all that connectivity yesterday afternoon. So I had to use the old school, like, let's put a timer on my phone, let's not ask Google. But I but she said not long after I mentioned that comment, she said, okay, Google, what's wrong with me? And that sat with me awfully that she said that because she's linked two things together, me using Google for everything, and her asking what's wrong with her, when actually I all I was asking what is what's wrong with you now. I need to help you. But she's linked that something, and that's it, it's still sitting with me really awfully that that she's putting.

SPEAKER_03: 19:47

That's really hit hard for you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

Yeah, it's it's one of these really difficult things that technology is there for to help me, yeah, but it's actually then developed into something she thinks she's what's wrong with her. It's not the wrong thing, what's wrong with that? I was asking out what what is wrong so I can help, but the translation has come out completely wrong. So it does sometimes not go right, it doesn't like I I do sometimes get it wrong and I lose lose the control, and uh and then I my wife will then say, Look, that it's time for me to intervene now because you're obviously quite afraid or you you're struggling. Um and it does happen, like I say, it's not we're not we're not perfect, but I don't want to impose on them. Um, so that's why if I do get to a triggered point, I normally will walk away and say, Right, sorry, you're gonna have to just tag team in here because I'm gonna either say something and cross the line, or they're gonna feel the negativity of it. I don't want them to feel negative.

SPEAKER_03: 20:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you and you want a really good tag team.

SPEAKER_00: 20:52

We try, yeah, we say we try. Sometimes I don't understand where I'm coming from at all. She don't sometimes get it. But um, if I explain it afterwards, then sometimes she might go, yeah, that's fine, but you shouldn't have said that in for the children, or yes, think about this at the next time. I'm like, I think about it, but it doesn't mean that I'll put I'll be able to put it into practice. I'll I'll try, but it depends what it how I feel at the time. And um, but that's my always worries. I haven't I've not had a can't say I didn't have a great childhood, I had a bit of a traumatic beginning, so um, so therefore I try not to, I'm very conscious of that upon my children. Like I don't want that to be the same.

SPEAKER_03: 21:32

So I'm the way things are said, the way things come across, and the way people act, I try and really control that, but I suppose as well, you're really early into your diagnosis and getting to know that and understanding why you do and say the things that you do, and you know, when we get it, and that's why I have this big thing about I get even the diagnosis later in life can be really tough because actually we've lived a whole life before that not knowing, and then you kind of get these new I don't know, glasses, you know, new lenses sounds a bit weird, but you know what I mean? And just a different way of looking at yourself that you go and you suddenly go, oh that is the reason, and that is completely why I did that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:17

And it's I think the thing I get a lot of time is well, that's not an excuse. All right, it's not an excuse, it's an explanation. I'm trying to explain to you why I do that. I'm definitely not trying to say that that what I've said is right or wrong.

SPEAKER_02: 22:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:33

I just need to say I'm trying to give you a context of where I've come from in that in that view. But um don't often come across her, but sometimes me and my wife do have a bit of a clash, man.

SPEAKER_02: 22:44

She'll be like, what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00: 22:46

And I'll have to really try and delve into it. She goes, Yeah, it's not, it's not computing with me that, but that might have just been the scenario at the time when they needed to cool down and we talk about it later. And sometimes you just you want to you want to go away from the scenario, but the other person wants to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03: 23:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:07

And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. If I talk about it now, it's too raw. I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna unleash rather than just be controlled, yeah, let me go away. And they're like, no, no, no, I need to talk about it now. No, yeah. Sometimes we're really like, no, if you do it now, I'm I will say something because I'm not I'm not cohesive, I'm not saying what I need, what I believe, I'm gonna say what I feel.

SPEAKER_02: 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:30

Um and then so and they go, no, okay, yeah, speak later.

SPEAKER_03: 23:34

And I think what's really important to see, and that what I kind of love about your page as well, you know, and the stuff that you do is that it is seeing a dad talk about this. And you know, when I look at the followers that I've got percentage-wise, I would say probably about that tiny of being dads. So kind I would you know, maybe about two, three percent that kind of it's it's so small, and I'm um I I often think where are those dads? Because this isn't just uh parenting isn't just difficult for mums. And I know stereotypically we might think mums are the ones that kind of would would do this and will do that and whatever, and stereotypically dad goes out to work and all, but actually I think the more and more I'm starting to talk to dads, they're struggling, but we don't see you, we don't see them. And whether I suppose I'm interested, do you think it's going somewhere else? Or do you think, like you said earlier, actually what happened is it just stays within?

SPEAKER_00: 24:37

Interesting, yeah. I think I think it I think we're there, we're definitely there, we're definitely struggling. But I think what happens is the perception is the mums will pick up the slack. Um, so it is like when we talk about stem parenting, same parenting, you always see the mums are behind them fighting the cases, doing that. You don't see that dads have done anything, or and I don't know if that is just social perception, like things haven't yet, things are moving. I think people understand, but I think there is still that kind of stigma that the dad goes to work, the mum stays at home. When it's actually this life kind of dynamics of families have hugely changed, uh massively changed. Um, I work flexibly from home on and I also then have a flexible working day on a Monday. But when I go to like children's classes with my daughter, it is a I am probably one of the only dance there. Yeah, and I very rarely will people will speak, and if they do speak, it's flippantly passing conversation where other moms are. You can see that they're all talking, they have conversations. Oh, I take a this class, you take a list. And I have to like kind of eavesdrop a little bit because otherwise I think I didn't know about that. My wife's not mentioned that to me. Because it's just that kind of feeling that we don't seem to be involved uh in it. Um, I don't know where how that's developed over time, I really don't. Yeah, um but yeah, you definitely feel the divide.

SPEAKER_03: 26:07

See, that's really interesting because I never thought about actually dads actually might feel excluded rather than and and it's actually really difficult to get into groups where there's maybe lots of mums, and yeah, I'd never thought of that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:25

Yeah, I think I think a lot of a lot of followers I'm saying my followers are more of a female base than they are male based. I think it's more like 70 odd to 40, so it's it's bigger, yeah. Um, but I would probably say that it'll be the mums who will follow me to then to share it to the dads to see.

SPEAKER_03: 26:43

Maybe it is getting to the dads, but kind of by proxy through the mums.

SPEAKER_00: 26:48

My wife does it with me. I have to say my wife does it with me. She'll follow our page and she'll say, Oh, look, I've seen this before. It's it's links to husbands after and she sends me it, and I'm like, ah, right, okay, but it's come through like a female-oriented page, so yeah, so yeah, I definitely think it's that's where I feel the connect is, and I'm sure I'm trying to change the dynamic and trying to look at why I'm not reaching these um these dads, but when there's definitely dads out there that are neurodivers, and I'm I'm speak to them quite often.

SPEAKER_03: 27:20

Um definitely there, and I think that I know that they're definitely struggling. Um, and I had um uh Brackie from Super Good Bikers come on and do a podcast with me, and and he obviously set up his um support for dads initially, it was very much for dads, and I think he was finding the dads were talking much more when they were kind of engaged in something or more kind of one-to-one, face-to-face, rather than going through this internet connection or and whether that feels more comfortable. I don't know. It just really interests me.

SPEAKER_00: 27:54

I think they're practical, we're just practical in my eyes, aren't we? Like, I think we'd refer prefer to do something like a hobby or be out there or in a something like that. I think that's why we do it. Um, I think we people use their own, like go to the allotment or have a hot and go out and do photography or do some kind of hobbies. I think that's some people use other creative outlets. Um and they won't think about it as a therapy or as a as a as a way of dealing with it. I go to a dad's uh monthly dad's kind of catch up. We just have breakfast have lunch or breakfast and that's it, and we're just uh maybe an hour or so and we just chat for a bit and then go back, yeah, take the kids with us and give the wives a bit of a rest while we're out having a bit of banana, but it's just getting out there, isn't it? And I'm starting to see a lot more um groups that are gathering.

SPEAKER_03: 28:43

Yes, they are.

SPEAKER_00: 28:44

The issues I always see with those gathering groups are they're at night when I'm putting the kids to bed. So you can't that's when you struggle to you to attend them. Uh and these man clubs are a key one. They they run on a Monday, I think from seven till nine, I think, or something later on like that. And that's the time they run that purposely because that's when most dads who will are males feel at suicide risk, and that's why they run them at that time to in so if you're feeling that bad, you come and attend at that time. Okay, but for a dad time for me, it's it's the time when I'm putting the kids to the dead, yeah, and that's where I can't I can't go. Um, so that's where I I hit the barrier. I'd love to go to some things like these, but they're just they're just later in the evening.

SPEAKER_03: 29:32

Do you think, and this is again, my the my brain's gone off on a tangent. Sorry everyone, because there was there was a route when we're going through a structure, I've now gone off down a rabbit hole. So apologies everybody. Um, but this is really interesting me. Um I was just thinking then, do you think there's an element of dads feeling they're not allowed to be struggling because mum does stereotypically mum does more for the kids, um, or there's still this you know, male, we don't talk about things, we're tough, we're strong, we just get through it. Uh I'm I'm wondering whether dads feel that they aren't allowed to struggle.

SPEAKER_00: 30:18

I think because like we I talked about earlier, it was funny because it was we were talking, I know it's gonna get definitely go off topic, but we're talking about vasectives and things like that, and we were saying that. Vasectomies, how bad is it that people will always then start when a male has a vasectomy is like, oh, how bad is it? It's gonna it's gonna be horrendous, you're gonna go through all this pain. But we completely forget that your wife has given birth, has carried for nine months, is at postpartum, is breastfeeding, and none of that matters because you've had this tight, you're having this operation, and it's that I think that's the thing. We daren't say it because if we say it, they'll go, well, I've gone through.

SPEAKER_03: 31:06

I can trust that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:08

And you're saying you're having a slight issue, like you're having a bit of a mental health crisis. Come on, I've done all this. I think that's equally part of the way is that we don't we we don't want to talk about it because if we talk about it, then we'll feel like we're trying to take away from all what's all what's going on there, and in no other no other operation that do you get you have that you will have you have an operation and then you leave two days later. No other options that happen, but it pregnancy that that's it. There's you there's your child, go home.

SPEAKER_03: 31:44

Yeah, sometimes you don't even get an overnight sometimes you don't even get an overnight stay, you've had your baby right, off you go.

SPEAKER_00: 31:51

So I think that's uh another another part of it is uh we we know what you go through, and then for us then to say, oh yeah, when I'm not coping very well, it feels a bit contradictory.

SPEAKER_03: 32:06

Yeah, it's hard then, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

It is hard that yeah, and I think that's that's where I feel like the most of the weight sits, yeah, is not wanting to upset or cause any hardship by saying anything because you you're feeling it, but then what they've gone through is completely completely different, yeah. It's hormonal, behavioral, chemical. It's all it's all going on. Where for us it's yeah, we're just mentally not taking the load very well. Yeah, but it's neurodiverse as well as yeah, it's a different, it's a double whammy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03: 32:42

Yeah, and that's really important, isn't it? I think. And then I suppose that kind of leads me on to talk about. I will get back on to my structure and my topics now. Is thinking about, I suppose, is is is burnout, and you know, you've been very open about being burnt out. Um, something something I talk about as well. I've been burnt out, and it's something that I fight really hard to kind of raise awareness to about about burnout. Um do you feel comfortable talking about what burnout has looked like for you, David?

SPEAKER_00: 33:17

Very much, yeah. Um recent, so I'll say very recent. I've had a burnout period. So uh I had a week off of work, and I thought, right, I'm gonna have a nice reset, feel feel better. In that week off, it was my birthday, so I thought, yeah, so have a nice little celebration. But you're still dealing with two children in a caravan on holiday trying to deal with everything. And I was I thought, okay, I'm gonna have a really nice reset under a little bit, gonna come back. And I came back and I felt really deflated. Um, I like it was it was a load of work still piled up while I've been away. Nothing really moves while you're while you're away on an annual leave. So I've got to come back to that. So I think, well, why do I take time off? It's pointless. Um, so yeah, I I I struggled. Um, the weather's changed as well. I do suffer quite bad from from seasonal affective disorder as well. So yeah, uh, before I came on, I had my light on it, it looked like I just glaring, glaring light in my face. Um, so yeah, for me, it's really it's like another battle of depression. I would I would describe it as because that's what I originally was thinking. Am I depressed? Do I have another condition? Do I have a severe um like it's bipolar? I know that's probably not the right term anymore, bipolar. Um, but is there something more I was thinking? And then that was then spiral and inspiring and thinking, no, I'm actually just having a down time. I'm just down. And it's all right for me to feel a little bit low. Um stop trying to diagnose myself all the time just making something that there's something out of it that there isn't. Um, I just need to accept the fact that I'm having a bit of a low period. Um, and that's all I and that's all I needed to do was just accept it. My wife was really supportive. She picked up the slack in the house and been looking after the kids and tidying around, and normally I would do some of that. But I just didn't have the capacity or energy to do it. Like, it just wasn't there. Um posts and kind of kind of social media. I wanted to talk about it, I went to get it out there, but I just every time I logged on to write something, I was like, is this me just sounding whingy and whiny? And am I not, is it not, is it not hitting the right? Am I just being manic, depressive on my page? Is that gonna just put people off? I thought, oh, you know what, I as well write it. I'll come around to it when I'm in a better headspace and I can I can so yeah, I had a couple of time weeks off and I just couldn't get the the content that I wanted to write. Yeah, um, I wanted to say how I was feeling, but I didn't want to then kind of just I don't know how to describe it, make people feel low in themselves by reading my content.

SPEAKER_03: 36:12

Yeah, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00: 36:13

Um you would get enough that was low. So there's there's a couple of posts where people have reached out to me directly afterwards and said, I'm worried about you, are you all right? And I was like, I'm absolutely fine. I just needed to verbalize uh that, and that's another one with a daughter as a woman now was really upset in the corner of the room when they were trying to put them to bed. She now says, Daddy was upset in my bedroom, daddy cried, and I'm like, Oh, that really has affected them. But again, it's good for her to see that I'm I I I do have I do get upset, and I'm not not gonna be one of those people that do struggle. Um, so she does see the soft, she'll see the softer side to me as well than the the other side as well. So it's important for them to see. Yeah, but at the time I was like, Oh, this is weak and this is not right, and I shouldn't be doing this in front of her. It's just gonna make her um cause some some emotional damage, or is that if that's the right word to use, but I was worried, and I equally thought I need to I need to have this moment, yeah. Um and that's when my wife again saw me, saw me on the camera, saw me upset on the kid's camera. She's like, right come in, you take over, you take over the little one, you take the lad, he's he's calm, you go look after him, and I'll I'll deal with this. Yeah, because burnout phrases come sometimes, and the phrases come out of them when they go, I don't want you anymore, or they hit you. Uh and that's when you're like, right, well, I'm absolutely no good to them, then I'm not helping them. Um, then that's when you start to spiral down.

SPEAKER_03: 37:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:50

So yeah, it was it went I I have had a tough, tough period, but I I can't say it's the community that gets me through this. I have to say this the neurodiverse community is the best community I've ever done.

SPEAKER_03: 38:01

And and the one of the things I talk about with burnout is that it's I can't guarantee I won't burn out again. Uh it's one of those things I can't guarantee it. I know my burnout, I know what it looks like, I know when it's coming now, I recognise it better. But I've also kind of got strategies in place that when I can feel myself slipping, and sometimes a bit like you, I I need my partner to say to me, Uh, Liz, you alright? And I'll go, Yes, I'm fine. And they're like, You're not really.

SPEAKER_01: 38:30

No, I think you are.

SPEAKER_03: 38:32

Yes. And I still need that, even with the job that I do. Um, and I found that really hard for a little while. Was that the job that I do? How can I help people if I still need help? But actually, I'm just doing what I you know, I talk a lot about kind of having safe circles around you, and that's having safe people around you, be that the neurodivergent community or a partner or whoever, friends, family, that that get it, that do get it, that can help steer you in a direction when things are really bad, when our kind of our thinking brain has gone offline and we're really in that kind of protective part of our brain and we we're feeling quite unsafe. Um, is having people that can steer you, and my biggest one as well is having people that don't go, you just need to get banned from my stratosphere when I'm feeling a bit bubbly.

SPEAKER_00: 39:25

It's the biggest book bear. But again, another therapist that I had years ago, uh I've delved into many different therapies, but this therapist was somebody who was dealing with people who look after people in the care industry. Um, so like nursing, um, doctors, um, mental health practitioners, and because I work with people who are getting back into employment and in through disabilities or mental health, um, at that time I was on the front line uh getting those people back into work. Now I'm more paperwork, back of house. Um, so at the time, I really struggled with dealing with their load, yeah. But their their impression and their their struggles, and I would take that home. Um, and that she said that when you're in the caring industry, it is much more easier to want to help others than it is to want to help yourself.

SPEAKER_03: 40:20

We're the worst, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:22

And that's when she said that, I thought, well, that's makes a complete sentence. Like, what so what book do we do? And she said, uh you just need to have either you're booking yourself some time with your manager and say, right, this is bothering me this week. This is what I need to offload. Is there anything further I need to do in terms of workload to deal with this? Or can I have um uh to go and do a walk out in the out in just go out out of the office for a bit just to have a refresh? It was should just make yourself some time to to to compress that, and that's what I still tend to carry on where when I say I need a decompression time. Yeah, my kids and stuff go to bed, and I stay up for hours, yeah, trying to deal with it or understand what I'm doing, and just watch a bit of mindless telly or reads up on something, and that's when normally then my bike and my brain will go, right? You've you've done everything now, it's time for you to go to sleep, and then doesn't give me any warning, and I'm just gonna sleep, I'm gone. And then I wake up at four or five o'clock fully clothed. Like, what am I doing here? Phone's still there, laptop still out, but TV still blaring. So I've just gone because my brain's it said it's enough, enough's enough. Yeah, and it just shook me off, but I've not, yeah, never never felt tired before that point. I've just gone so that's the sleep for me. I'm definitely like a sleep narcalectic. It's the weirdest, it's the weirdest feeling to explain to somebody. I'm just there, suddenly gone.

SPEAKER_03: 41:46

Oh, do you know what though? Sometimes I feel really my son's like that, he goes to bed and that's it, gone. Like in seconds, sound asleep. And I'm the opposite. I'm the one at three o'clock in the morning with my brain going, whoa! Please, I need to go to sleep. And I've done all the tips and you know, get up, I've written everything down, and I'm still going, my head's still, oh, but what? Oh, and it's got another idea. Um so I do get very jealous of people that can just literally dunk, that's it, then gone.

SPEAKER_00: 42:21

These people I know.

SPEAKER_03: 42:27

I've got a couple of questions just to kind of round off with you, David. One is I want to say something. I want I kind of want to get a message out to the dads, and I wonder what your message would be to say maybe a mum has listened to the podcast and has chucked it under a partner's nose and said, Have a listen to this. What do you wish a dad knew?

SPEAKER_00: 42:55

It is okay to speak, to shout out loud, to not feel like you have to do it behind closed doors, to reach out and say that you're struggling, and to literally find your way out of it. I think we're all finding it every day. I'm still not 100% there. Um the burnout I'm going through now. I've gone through that last wave, I'm gonna go through another round of um therapy, but this time I'm not gonna try CBT. Um, I've done everything I've got access to work. I've had occupational therapy, uh, occupational health. Um, and I've gone through other kind of external support things. Yeah, I still seek the support when I need it. Like I don't just go, right, this is an I've I've done therapy before, I've done medication before. Like I still go out and there and find out what other ways I can deal with this. Yeah, and this is what I'm constantly trying to learn. Like, I know I know that I'll never be perfect, I'll never do everything the right way. Um, I'll never fit into a structure that is there in the world. I won't fit in there, but what I'll try to do is get it. So I need to understand my mood, I need to understand how to cope under overwhelm. And that's the thing that I struggle with, is when there's so much going on and the kids are problematic, work's problematic, life's difficult. How do I balance all those commitments and still get through? Yeah, and I think that's where I'm trying to learn, and I think that's what I would say to most dancers. It is okay to say to me, I'm not, I'm not very wide, I'm not very coping with this very well. Yeah, and you might get a bit of pushback, you might, because they might say, Oh, I've I've dealt with it. Yeah, you are, but I'm not. So, how can we get through it together?

SPEAKER_03: 44:48

Yeah, the questions go out there and do some reading or just message me because I don't imagine that yeah, that's the other place is to come find you on your page and and you're on Instagram. Well, I'll put all the details in the show notes so people can find David where he is and they can look you up if they want to. But I suppose that kind of links in as well to us talking about finding people that you can go talk to about that. And if that isn't your partner, if that feels too difficult, reach out. There are other people out there in other formats as charities, but you know, also reach out through David and somebody's done it recently.

SPEAKER_00: 45:22

Somebody reached out to me and said, like I'm I said, I'm struggling. What you've them one of my recent posts that what you've wrote there is a quote resonates with me completely. I feel it completely. I said, Look, I can't promise that I'm I'm I'm not a counsellor, I'm not trained in any way, shape, or form. I said, but I'm up, I'm happy for the space to be available to you. You write it, and I can't promise that I'll fix, but I'll let you give you the space to offload. Um and I said I might offer suggestions, but I'll never give you the answer, and I'll never tell you that the way forward because that's not that's not what you're coming to me for. Not come for an answer, you've come just to get it off your chest. Yeah, and I said, Don't ever feel you ever need to give me an answer. Um, because I I won't have the answer, maybe not either.

SPEAKER_03: 46:04

Because sometimes it is about finding somebody else that gets it, isn't it? It's not about I don't need fixing. And I felt like that.

SPEAKER_00: 46:12

Why can't we fix it anyway?

SPEAKER_03: 46:13

We're not we're not no, and I think I felt like that with and I still feel like that is that I I don't and that's what the when people come in the with doing the you just need to, and I think I don't need fixing, I just need somebody else that kind of goes, do you know what? This is really hard, and I get it, I hear you, and like you say, just being able to go, I just need to talk about this, I just need to get it off my chest, I just need to say how I'm feeling about something.

SPEAKER_00: 46:39

And my wife will look at me all the time, she'll sit like it's in the car the other day. We're driving somewhere, and years a few years ago, we were in a there was a near accident that we had on the motorway. We all we all we got away from it, but we don't know that like the severity about how bad it was. And every time we go on the motorway at that point, it's always like, Oh, I'm really anxious about that. And I said to her, I said, in the car, it's never gonna it's like that's it's a one-off, it might never happen again. Like, can't keep thinking about it, we're gonna dwell. Because at the point in me driving, I'm thinking, well, I don't want to think about it either. Yeah, because you're making me nervous. We haven't we haven't been this way for years because of the anxiety that you have driven. I now I didn't drive at the time, I now do drive. So it was one of those where I could drive, it's fine, we'll go over there, but don't put your anxiety on me because that will make me even worse. Because then I'll start playing it through my head. And then she said, All I needed was a bit of compassion there, and you would have said, It'll never happen again. And I just went, but it wasn't like, but it's because I was then protecting myself at that time, saying, Please don't make me nervous about it. This because I'm never gonna run across that road again either.

SPEAKER_02: 47:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:46

So but then that's all she needed to say to me. Like, all I needed was a bit of compassion there, and I was a bit like, right, okay, yeah. Apologies, yeah. My insecurities was I try to take over. Sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 48:02

I'm just gonna bring us to a close, David. I just wanted to say thank you ever so much for coming on. I really appreciated chatting to you. It was great. We met through Instagram, didn't we? And you reaching out, I think it might have been over a pin. Was it over a pin?

SPEAKER_00: 48:18

Your I loved your pin back. These are for guests, and I was like, can't have I loved that. You should say I have a really uh that's one of my like interests is enamel pins. I collect them all, so I've got loads of enamel pins.

SPEAKER_03: 48:35

Well, you've got a pin winging its way to you. You can have a pin.

SPEAKER_00: 48:38

And I I am currently designing pins that I want to put out there as well.

SPEAKER_03: 48:43

So oh, so this is a real love for you pins.

SPEAKER_00: 48:46

Yeah, I think I think it's another way of expressing yourself inadvertently, just putting it on there and going, this is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03: 48:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:53

Yeah, I'll have to send you the picture of what I've got on my bag.

SPEAKER_03: 48:56

Oh, well, if you do, we'll put it out with the with the podcast. Yeah, but yeah, we'll want my pin on there as well. So we want to get my pins. I love that. Um we'll put obviously all of David's details in the show notes so you can find him. The other thing that I'm just gonna mention before you go, if you are on video watching this on YouTube, or you've seen one of the clips, you will see the brilliant t-shirt that David has got on. And I just wanted to mention it that says, so if you're just listening, it says woke up neurodivergent again, and it's on a bright green t-shirt, which of course I love because it's bright green, but a brilliant t-shirt. And where's that from, David?

SPEAKER_00: 49:37

It's from Born Anxious, so uh a love, a lovely, lovely brand that I definitely want to definitely want to give some um shout out to because again, that's another person who's every time I've said I've not promoted you enough, I've not you've given me this free gifts, this a lovely freebie from them, and that's and I've then they've said no rush, you you just deal with it as as you as you as you see fit. And I thought, yeah, this was a perfect time for me to say woke up this morning and felt like still neurodivergent. It's it just makes me laugh every time.

SPEAKER_03: 50:06

You know what David came on before we even spoke. I had read the t-shirt and said to Jim, I love that t-shirt. I'm off to look up. What are they called again? Remind me?

SPEAKER_00: 50:16

Born anxious.

SPEAKER_03: 50:17

Born anxious. I'm off to look up Born Anxious, they sound great. I'll put some details for them as well in the show notes so people can find them. I'll put a link in there. Um, David, thank you ever so much for joining me. I know things have had been a bit wobbly for you over the last couple of weeks. So I appreciate your time and your honesty. And um, it's been great talking to you.

SPEAKER_00: 50:36

Thanks. My pleasure.