Holding The Line: Boundaries, Burnout, And Brave Parenting with Chrissa from Sunshine Support

In this episode of The Untypical Parent Podcast, I’m joined by Chrissa Wadlow from Sunshine Support, and this one turns into a proper real-life chat (the kind I know so many of us need).

Chrissa shares her journey as a SEND parent, including the very real reality of battling systems, being judged, and the toll that takes on your health and your whole family.

From there we get into boundaries, not just “rules for kids”, but the boundaries we need as parents to stay well. We talk about how to hold boundaries at home, how to protect yourself in meetings, and why noticing your nervous system signs (and stepping out when you need to) is a skill worth practising.

We cover:

• The trauma and exhaustion of fighting for provision
• Boundaries as protection (not punishment)
• Teamwork at home + sharing the load
• Handling meetings without reacting in the moment
• Modelling emotions and recovery for our kids

Links:

Sunshine Support + Sunshine Academy
Chrissa’s podcast: Sip of Sunshine
 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Krista, welcome and thank you ever so much for coming along and being on the Untypical Parent Podcast. Thank you for coming and lovely to have you here with me today. Oh, it's amazing to be here. Obviously, I'm so pleased you asked me. I'm absolutely thrilled. We finally got there, didn't we? We've had one in their diary. I then had to cancel for ill. Was I ill? I think I was ill. To be honest with you, with my health. So who knows? And then as trying to get our diaries to align over that time, it's taken us a little while, but we have finally managed. We have. Chris, before we kick off, would you just kind of tell our listeners a bit about you and what you do, who you are? Yeah, of course. So I have four children. I always lead with that because I think it's such a massive accomplishment. I'm still sitting, standing, you know, it's good. Um I run Sunshine Support. People know me as you know, Sunshine Chrissa. Um, in terms of my background, um, I've been a parent for almost 25 years now. Um, and that means I've been a send parent for almost 25 years. And with my eldest daughter, what I found was she's she's autistic, ADHD, PDA profile, never heard of PDA before. I mean, we're going back 10 years or more. Um, very steep learning curve for me. I remember when I first found out she was autistic, and I was like, but she makes eye contact, you know. I was one of those. Not anymore, of course, but of course, safe space. Um, and so I made it my business to learn. And the more I learned, the more the actual system punished me because they were like, you know an awful lot about this, you've become a bit obsessed. And I said, Well, I'm not ups, I'm sort of obsessed about fixing the environments for my child, if that's what you mean. And through a really traumatizing battle littered with injustice, as it always is, and lots of real foul play on behalf of my on the part of my local authority and cams. Um, we ended up at the high court fighting for her permission. So we went through two tribunals. Um, I couldn't keep her safe at home. She was so dysregulated, and with having three tiny ones, I had three under three at one point, um, because I've got twins. It wasn't that I was just busy for three years. You had your hands full. And so, yeah, so we ended up going through the high court. We we put on a child protection plan, we were told we were making it all up, we were accused of fabricated or induced illness. Um it was really traumatizing, and I say it w sort of I have to disassociate really to be able to talk about it because I think if I sit in the moment back then, I can easily just sit here and absolutely cry because we see it all the time in the work that we do. Families are attacked for being different, families and particularly neurodivergent families, and you know, as with most parents, I've gone on my own neurodivergent journey as well, diagnosed at age 40 with ADHD, not a surprise. Um, but I wouldn't have guessed that at the start. I just thought I was too much, you know, as a lot of ADHD women feel. Um, and of course, that probably leads me back to that accusation of being obsessed with understanding because I hyperfixated. And of course, because I presented differently or I was perplexing in my pre uh presentation, then the local authority teachers were sort of like, well, that looks a bit odd, doesn't it? Shall we do this? Shall we do this? And they were found to have colluded before they made a decision in front of a panel. They were honestly, the injustice was rife. And I still have all the paperwork because I have to remind myself sometimes because you feel like you've lived this weird nightmare. And you've no, it was real, I'm not making it up. It's like the universe, isn't it, that kind of happens. Yeah. Yeah, and it's so different to where I am now as well. I don't recognise that, Chrissa, to be honest with you, because I was so beaten down. And anyway, we did two tribunals, couldn't quite get to where we needed to be. Um, and so we had to go to the High Court that overrode temporarily the tribunal. We got her into the provision she needed to be at, which was the one she wanted to go to. And then, of course, having the PVA profile, she didn't want to go, so that was that was a battle. Um and then when we got us settled, they tried to pull the provision again. So we had to go back to tribunal, get it nailed into the EHCP. So there were three tribunals, High Court uh case. We effectively won all of it, but it there was never a win. There was never justice for me because there was always this sort of tainted opinion on me as a parent. And I remember a social worker from the local authority saying in a tribunal, I need to remind the court. And then she was told off because that's not what a tribunal is, it's not Ali McBeal, you know. Um, and she was told, I need to remind the court that if we had a parent who was fit and able, we wouldn't be here today seeking specialist provision. And you know, that's very much the attack that parents get. And you know, how do you keep yourself well in that? Because it's fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. And I remember we moved into a new house and he had gates on the front, and I just kept closing the gates and I kept getting told off by social care saying we're trying to do spontaneous visits. I was like, but I don't want you here. I'm trying to protect my family, I'm trying to protect my boundaries. You do become obsessive because the the safety of you and yours is paramount and you feel like you're under attack. Um, anyway, she was placed in her school. I went back to my regular job, I had my own recruitment agency, and I remember sitting there listening to somebody say to me on the phone, Hi Chris, I was just wondering if you can get me a new job. I want about another 10k on top of my salary. And I was like, what am I doing? There are kids out there just like mine that need help. Why am I not putting my passion, yeah, my business now, to good use? So I set up Sunshine Support and I was thinking it was just going to be a workshop, just to annoy the local authority because because of the High Court case, I wasn't allowed to talk at that point publicly about what had happened.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

So I thought, right, put your business head on. How can you hurt them? Okay, you can hurt them in the pocket. They don't want people knowing about EHCPs, they don't want people knowing about the law. So I brought my solicitor in that I'd used, and I was like, let's do a free workshop. And that's where it all started. And there was people stood at the back, people queuing at the door, and I was like, whoa, I'm not on my own. Real big realisation at that point because I thought I was all on my own and I'd never heard of PDA, and nobody'd ever heard of PDA. And the amount of parents who would just say, Have you just tried the entertainer?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah.

From Recruitment To Sunshine Support

SPEAKER_00 7:11

You know, and the the old boys would go, give her one of them. Yeah. And we're having a laugh, she'd stab me. Um, but it was just that realization that I wasn't on my own. So I started doing some research and I was like, right, okay, parents need information, they need moral support, that peer-to-peer support, but they need professionals to guide them. I've got to be able to do something with this. I'm creative, I, you know, I'm good with business ideas. I've been doing sort of entrepreneurial stuff, shock horror, ADHD, all my adult life. So put it to good use. So I did. And then eight years later, here we are with like 25 employed staff on the payroll, and we support tens of thousands of parents and families. In terms of business, you know, eight years actually isn't that long to have got where you got with the business. And it's like you say, it shows just how desperate parents are out there, and you aren't alone. And I I have I haven't got a story to the extremes you have got, and but similar in the fact of having to deal with local authorities and go to tribunal, and it was one of the most horrific things I have ever been through in my life, and actually changed my whole career because at that point I was still writing reports for tribunal. I now can't do that because I just was so scarred by doing it, and not actually by the tribunal itself. It was the process, um, it was tribunal officers, like you say, kind of lots of underhandedness and yeah, just made life so difficult. And I think what upset me all the time, and you kind of felt similar, was it didn't need to have happened. All this trauma, not just to me, but to the kit my other kid, my kids and my other kids. The kids, the whole family, it didn't need to happen. And when you look at the tribunal stats, it shouldn't be happening. It's nearly 100%. Yeah. We win nearly 100% of them. And how much are they spending? I mean, the last figure I saw was something like 150 million pounds. Like, how many kids could that provide support to? It breaks my heart. And the the outcome, I remember them saying to us, your child should be in a mainstream school. I said, Well, she's not been attending for 18 months, so chances are that's not right. Um, and what we actually gained, uh, you know, and I I hate the word we won because we didn't win. It didn't feel like a win, it's awful. My family were torn apart. Yeah, there were no local provisions. She was four hours away. You know, it's ruined the family. It really ruined the family, but it was the only way that I could keep them safe. And my my expectation, and I I always talk about this, when we have babies, and we have this very romantic view of, you know, oh, a little mini me and a mini you, you know, in most situations, and then you kind of go, we're gonna grow old together and they're gonna have this bit of me and that bit of you, and it's gonna be beautiful, plain sailing, and then you have the realization that's not gonna happen. And I think that it one of the most difficult things for a send parent to acknowledge, and this is where I hope professionals really listen. If you have a send parent who sat in front of you saying, I can't cope and I can't provide what my child needs at home, that's a real big admission. And that needs they need scooping up and they need hugging and they need validation and they need love. What they don't need is interrogation and accusation because they're already feeling the worst in the world because they can't provide what that child needs. And it's terrifying, I think, as a parent to get to that point. It's actually not just, you know, that you feel like you've even known you'd let your kids down. It's actually terrifying when you get to that point where you think I don't know how to keep my child safe anymore, and I'm fighting this big massive system that I cannot seem to get to understand. And I have a child that actually potentially you're looking at how do I keep them on this planet with asking. Absolutely that as a parent has to be any parent's worst nightmare. It is truly and I when I do talks with stuff to schools and things, I took it is terrifying as a parent to be in that position. And I don't think unless you've been there, people don't understand it. You can't get it. It's the feeling of sort of uh we're on three floors here, and I'm on the top floor, and I would come down, and the first bedroom I'd see was my daughter's bedroom. And it's that feeling of if I go in and check she's okay, she's either gonna absolutely attack me for disturbing her safe space, or maybe she's not okay, and I'm gonna catch her at the end of life, or we're still gone. The parents shouldn't have to feel that, you know, and when you're you know, I was banging on the door of the local authority and I kept saying, you know, I know my right side as solicitor, it cost me an absolute fortune, Liz.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah.

The Cost Of Fighting And Hidden Grief

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Um, we have to borrow so much money, it cost in the region of£200,000 for legal fees and medical fees, and that was another reason why I set up sunshine because I was like, this shouldn't be this difficult. And what happens to the children who can't whose parents can't get hands on that money because that's not normal having that you know access to that cash. Um, and it it it fractured so much, but like I said, you have to change your standards almost because you're like, this is not about a child, how do I get them to thrive and pass their GCSEs? That's not what my um standards are for this particular or this scenario. It's about how do I keep them alive and I will do anything to keep them alive. So if that means borrowing off anybody, if that means doing whatever it takes to get my hands on that cash so I can keep my child alive, I will keep them alive. And it wasn't just about that child, it was the fact that before. And like you said, the impact on the family, impact on relationships. I lost loads of friends. I've lost my entire family over this because nobody would agree with what the doctors were saying. They were like, no, Chris is I've heard what the social worker says, and it sounds like you're not doing a very good job. But yeah, I've got no problems with the other three. They've got send, but probably, I mean, two of them have got send as a result of what happened the first time because it's it's complex trauma, it's developmental trauma, and so sensory-wise, they all have a sensory profile that's very spiky. Um, and it yeah, it definitely is affected. I mean, one of my other children has developmental language disorder, she's an absolute character. She comes onto my reels and my Facebook. Yeah, I've seen her, she's wild. She's like she's just brilliant, she's so funny, and she's about to write her first book, which is brilliant. Oh, amazing with Libby Hill. Yeah. So they talk they're going to be talking all about DLD, which is great. So from the young person's perspective as well. Um, and you know, so hers that that wasn't caused by trauma because she was born with that and she's new at the virgin. But the other two, I mean, all three of them have a trauma profile, all four of them have a trauma profile, and our entire family has been fractured by it all. And parents as well have that trauma profile as well. Yeah, the whole family ends up in it. Absolutely. I I went on and had um a stroke not long after she was placed. Um, I was about 37, something like that. And I had a stroke. Um, and they said, yeah, of course. I mean, we can't pinpoint it and say it's because of that stress, so we can't help you to make a claim or anything. But essentially, had you not gone through these seven years of absolute hell at the hands of your local authority and camps, then of course, yeah, it's very unlikely you would have had that stroke. You know, we can't see anything else within your health that would point to you having that. Um, and we've continued to have health problems. And, you know, I'm not going to allow it to define me, but I'm also not going to be toxic and kind of go, everything's fine, because it's not okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah.

Family Trauma, Health Crises, And Recovery

SPEAKER_00 15:02

But it it it, you know, I always say to my girls, because I've got four four daughters, how lucky am I to have all this sass in my house? I always say to the husband. I know, I know. Although he's looked after at Christmas, Liz, you should have seen his gifts, his whole. I mean, my girls are good at gifts. Uh, good to hear it. Yeah, it's good. But yeah, I think, you know, having having all the trauma, I I always say to the girls, you know, we can we we all we all have therapy. So every single one of us has has therapy. Some through an EHCP, some I have to just pay for because the NHS don't cover all this sort of stuff. Um, but you know, we we focus a lot at tone because of all the stuff I've learned, of course, from running sunshine. Um, it's a very emotional household, very loud in our emotions. Um, very, I mean, I know we're gonna be talking shortly about other stuff as well, but I think it all bleeds into it, to be honest with you, in terms of boundary setting and stuff. Um, but it it's it's fascinating how it has shaped us. But I always say to the girls, it comes to a point, you can do all your therapies, you can do everything else, but it comes to a point where you've got to take a hold of your brain and say, I'm gonna do something positive today that cannot sit and wallow. And sometimes you've just got to give yourself a good kick up the bum and inject that positivity into your life. And, you know, so gentle parenting, I'm all about it, but it also takes that sort of firm hand as well, not firm hand, that sounded awful, that firmness of yourself. It's a firm hand for yourself to say, actually, enough is enough. I've got to crack on, I've got stuff to do, I want to do stuff, I want to achieve stuff. So it's looking forward, isn't it? I think when I went through that with my son, is that he's on an ETOS package, so he's at home, and for him it's been really difficult thinking about well, what next? And we've had to put something, even if we don't get there, we've had to look at, well, okay, well, where are we aiming for? Because otherwise I could just see him shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. And although we'd removed the stresses for him and we needed to do that to protect his mental health at that time. That doing that also shrunk his life quite considerably. Um, and it wasn't until we looked at, okay, well, where are we gonna go? What's our ultimate aim? Where do we want to be? And I was lucky that you know his mental health improved enough that we could start to do that. But it made a big difference to be able to think about okay, well, where are we gonna go? And like you say, we're not gonna sit in this, we've got to find a way forward and find ways to manage it and deal with it. Um, and that I think that's really helped for us. Really helped. Yeah, yeah, and of course, it is about sort of you you've got to sort of validate and work on the now. I always I do everything in three steps. Everything business, home, everything where you kind of go, right, what's happening now? You know, so that's step one. Let's have a look at now, next week, the following week. How can we get you to a place of safety? And then it's okay, now what is that gonna look like in two to three months? And then you get through the two to three months, okay, what's that gonna look like in the next year? And it is that pushing forward and not allowing yourself to say, stay too stagnant, you know. Um, but yes, that happens, doesn't it? I think when things get scary, it's really easy to, and and then you know, our stress responses kick in, we might go into disassociation or freeze responses. That actually can be a protection mechanism. Sometimes we need that to be able to stay quite still until it's safe again. And like you say, the safety bit is always key. Safety's in place, then we can start to move forward, then we can start to look at what next. But don't start doing that with me until I'm safe. No, no, exactly. And I think safety is actually one of the biggest things you can teach your kids. You know, what's safe and what's unsafe, and what do you do when you're unsafe, but also what do you do when you're safe? Because, you know, some of us, particularly, I mean, I can only speak on behalf of me actually, but as a neurodivergent uh woman, I have a skewed perspective. I've had to really work hard at this and what is safe, because we've all met those ADHDers, this guy here, um, who overshares when they feel safe. And then you go, oh God, what did I do that for? You know, but he just met them and I've just told them all about like probably what I've just said. You know, I remember we're just coming through it, and it was all I could speak about when I was going through, you know, all this stuff. And so anybody who would listen, because there's quite a lot of people who were like, Oh God, Chris uh, I'm not gonna bother talking to her because she's gonna talk about what she's going through, and it's boring, and it must have been boring, but to me it was everything, but just you know, to meet somebody in the supermarket or we moved into this new house. I mean, it's not new now, um, and the person opposite was like, Hiya, you're all right, nice to meet you. And I was like, Hiya, yeah, you might see ambulances and police arrive because and then my husband's like, What did you do that for? We've just moved in and you just said, you know, this is what happens with our child, and oh god, and you overshare because you think, Oh, like, you know, I need to validate myself and I need them to know everything's okay. It's just you know, but we do we have this, you know, in that place of perceived safety, and that can sometimes be a bit skewed for us when we knew we're divergent. Um we we can get it wrong, but I'm getting better at that.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

I am getting better at that.

Safety, Agency, And Looking Ahead

What Boundaries Mean In Real Life

SPEAKER_00 20:26

And I we we have slightly digressed, Chris, and I think I knew this was gonna happen possibly as we both of us started to talk, that I'd be like, oh, that's interesting. Let's go down that rabbit hole. And I think we were talking just when we came on, didn't we, about rabbit holes and ones that we disappeared down. So it doesn't surprise me, but I'm gonna keep it in because I really like what we've just talked about, and I think that's pretty good. But we were gonna talk about boundaries, weren't we? We're gonna talk about boundaries in additional needs families, in neurodivergent families. Um tell me a bit about what you think about boundaries are, Chris. What what are what are boundaries? If people are thinking, what are those two talking about? Well, to be honest with you, again, it feeds into what we just said about feeling safe. So I think, you know, it's looking at what we are prepared to do for ourselves, for other people, and understanding what is within that. I always think of it a bit like a dartboard. And I use the dartboard analogy with my kids as well for friendships, for anything really. Um, where you're gonna go, this is very much within my the the inner ring. This is what I really want to do. If I was to feel safe and want to do whatever I wanted, this is what it would be, you know? Curled up, box of chocolates, nice creamy coffee, fire blazing, fluffy socks, lovely, comfy. Um, and that's probably what I need when I feel a bit dysregulated. And so it's letting I, in my family, anyway, I let everybody know this is what this is my safety, this is where I really. Retreat to when I need to, but also when I want to, because we shouldn't just leave it for when we need to. So it's sort of saying, today I want to do this. Um, and it's understanding that that's my prerogative. That's nothing to do with anybody else, that's my prerogative. Um, and sort of making that very clear within your safe circle, I guess. So within my household, my family, all now, if you were to ask them what's mum's safe space, they would be able to tell. Probably exactly word for word what I've probably just said. Um, but then knowing, like, you know, where you're able to push yourself. So looking at my children, some of my children can do lots of activities through the week. There's one of my children that just can't do it on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Thursday, Friday opens up a little bit more, but Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, way too overwhelming because there's so much focus at school and she wants to get that right. So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays are right on. Then one of my other children, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday is an absolutely beautiful time. So we we look at those things and we go, right, when do we perform best? How do we perform best? When are we happy? When are we doing what we want to do? And again, looking, like we've just said, about these sort of like what do we want to achieve this week, this month, this year, looking at those achievements and then working out what within my boundaries perhaps need to change in order for me to achieve them. So it's quite complex and multifaceted, but it doesn't need to be like a sit-down business conversation with kids to be able to get it right. I mean, we use a lot of visuals in this house. So for me, boundaries is all about how you keep yourself well. Um, and that might be your day-to-day, but it can also be emergency situations, crisis situations, yeah, or for us ADHDers, post-crisis situations because we're great in a crisis and can really perform very well and very calm, but afterwards you're gonna go, oh my god, like have a stroke or something, you know. Oh my god, I need I need something to look after me or something happening. So that to me is about you know, all about boundaries. Couldn't really say it was in a word, but and I think when we met briefly, didn't we, to before we kind of went ahead and recorded, we talked about boundaries. And what I was so interested in them boundaries is you hear people talk a lot about you need to put your boundaries in place. But I know kind of from my experience and probably from the other parents that I've worked with, that actually boundaries can be really difficult. So when people start to it, one is knowing where your boundaries are, because some of us don't, we think, oh my god, I feel terrible. And actually, we have to look at, well, where was my boundary? I actually I didn't have one in there. But also, when you've got people pushing up against those boundaries, how good are you at being able to hold firm? And we all have different personalities and different experiences and life experiences and all that kind of stuff. People will push up against our boundaries, and it's then, well, what do we do then when people start to push? Can we stick by our boundaries? Can we reinforce those boundaries? And I think sometimes when people talk about boundaries, they often think, oh, they're talking about boundaries for the kids.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yes.

Teaching Teamwork And Household Autonomy

SPEAKER_00 25:10

It's what the kids can and can't do. There's the boundary. But actually, as parents, we need boundaries, exactly like you've talked about. Here's my space, this is my prerogative, I can choose to do this, this is what I need. And kind of notoriously as parents, we aren't often very good at that bit. So I just kind of wondered what your kind of thoughts around that were, around how easy are boundaries. So I think it's about understanding your prerogative, but understanding the prerogative of others in the family as well. So, for instance, one of the things that I remember feeling quite guilty about when I had them all little was that I wasn't the mum to bake cakes or do stuff like that. I just can't I don't do baking because it's somebody telling me what to do and it's very specific. Cooking, great, because you just throw in whatever you feel, right? So baking, very prescriptive, not for me. Um, so I used to think, God, you know, I'm terrible at motherhood because I can't do the baking thing. I can't do that, that part of the connection. And then somebody said to me, that's not what you bring to your parenting. And I was like, what does that mean? And they said, You bring so much more than that. And when I started to think about it, I thought, no, they're right. That's not where my skill set's gonna be. I'm gonna send them to nursery to learn how to bake, and we'll put them on cooking courses. And I took them to a baking class, I was like, I to bake. I'm gonna teach them about other stuff, and it's very much emotions and stuff. So um, emotions and work, and because that's what's important to me. That's my core value. So again, it's looking at your core values, looking at the family's core values, but looking at your individual prerogatives and looking at theirs. So, for instance, if I put in place, I've I always say to my children, my role is mother. My role is not a housekeeper to do everything that you need me to do in the house or everything that needs doing in the house. That's not my job. That we have a big family here, and you like nice things, you like me to work, but you're also inspired by my work because they all love what I do. So, in order for me to, I can't do it all, you know. You you see these visions of women can have it all. Yeah, they can, but it doesn't mean they have to be a 1950s housewife whilst they're trying to do it. So I make it very clear. I don't do all the housework in this house because why should that be me? And again, I think to myself, my prerogative is I'm raising four girls. I want them to feel like equal members of the community. So one of my girls at age about four, she said, I found something that a boy can do that I can't. And I was like, what? We with a willy.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

I was like, okay, they've got changed that one.

Holding Lines With Schools And Authorities

Regulating In Meetings And Self-Advocacy

Everyday Coaching, Modeling, And Repair

SPEAKER_00 27:54

So um, so yeah, so looking at their prerogatives, looking on mine, um, I've said I don't do all the household chores here. That is a team effort. And as they've grown up, they've taken on more. We have a visual rotor on the wall. Everybody has a different job every day. It could be we've got a lot of cats, and it's as we've got three cats, but one of them is like a lion, he's a big main coon. Um, so we can't let him out because he'll probably get stolen. So somebody has to change the litter, somebody has to feed the cat, somebody has to unload the dishwasher, then reload the dishwasher, wipe counters, put dishes away. Um and there's a list, and it's a big old rotor, but what I've said is as long as it's done, doesn't matter what time of day it's done, that's yours. So I'm giving you that autonomy. But remember, if you don't do it, the knock-on effect is somebody else's job is affected. So this is teamwork. This is how we all balance things out as a team. Liz, it's a hard slog where you're like, have you checked your jobs? Have you checked your jobs? It's so hard, but I think it has to come early on as well. So we've done it from quite a young age with a young three. And I think, you know, we have to again look back at that sort of early uh those goals that I was talking about. So I want them to understand that behind the scenes stuff gets done, but it's not magic. Mum's not this magician that gets your clothes ready, gets them washed, gets them ironed. Magic doesn't happen, girls. You know, this is a behind-the-scenes look. I make sure that they're very they have access all areas to behind the scenes so they understand how a house runs. This is not about setting them up to be homemakers. They can do whatever they want when they're older. But wherever they are, even if they're a high-powered executive with staff running their house, they still need to understand what needs to be done in order to run a household. So I have them involved in all of that, and we make it fun, you know. And I always say to them, it takes you 10 minutes maximum to do these jobs. But if I was to do them all, that would be hours and hours and hours on my day and lots of stress. That's not fair of me. Um, and you know, I always make sure that they understand the impact of not doing them, which is an impact on somebody else. And again, it encourages that teamwork, and I love teamwork. I was a big sports team player as a youngster. So that's uh, but again, if they push back, so your question about pushing back, you then sort of reiterate, well, I understand that this might be a tricky one for you to do today. What could you do to alleviate yourself of that job? And now they've started to negotiate with each other, which I love, where they're like, I'm feeling really terrible today, and I don't feel I can give a hundred percent to that job. If you take it from me, I'll do that for you tomorrow. And they started to switch jobs, and that to me is like that's what you want as a business owner. Like that's what I would expect my staff to do. If they're not feeling so great, they'd swap jobs with someone or whatever. Um, so again, it's sort of protecting boundaries and kind of go, and I know that this is going to put on you today, and just expect sort of having that respect, I guess, of somebody else's prerogative, your prerogative, your boundaries. Um, it's really hard. Right? I'm saying this like, oh yeah, we have these lovely visual plans and all your it's hard. It's really, really hard. But then you've got to look at that long-term outcome and go, well, how am I going to make that happen? It's not going to happen by magic. It's not going to happen, you know. I so many parents say to me, Oh, I've noticed your kids under the dishwasher. Mine would never do that. God, oh, mine are rubbish. And it's like, no, no, no, no. You need to put a mirror up in front of yourself here. Did you teach them? Because it has to be coached, it has to be nurtured. These things don't, and it's not just about jobs. You know, um, I've spoken to you before about there are points where I'm like, closed for business. Mum's done. Mum is exhausted. And more often than not now, because of the way that I've raised the kids, and now they're all in senior school now, so you know, they've had this from day dog, really. But they'll say, Mum, you're looking exhausted. Yeah, I have. It's been a tough day. Do you want a coffee? I'd love one. And then they'll say, Right, Mum, shut shop. Okay. So we've got to make sure the jobs are done. And don't get me wrong, there are times where I wake up in the morning and I'm like, girls, you really let me down last night. You know, I said that I'd shut up shopping. You should have just carried on with your jobs if they didn't do it. It does happen. But it's just being vocal. You don't have to be angry, you know. And then part of this as well is showing them how to be angry, you know, and that really disappointed me. That really, really upset me because the knock-on effect is this. You know, how do you think I might have felt in that case, in that situation? And it's all language and learning all you've got in there around that protection of you. As parents, we often run ourselves ragged to the end where we are exhausted and collapse at the end of the day. I suppose kind of what I'm interested in and hearing you talk about there is having those boundaries about how to protect us, actually. Because I want to be your mum and I want to be able to go out and do my job or whatever it is you choose to do and would like to do. But to be able to do that, I need teamwork. And and we talk about teamwork a lot here. We're a team. Um, I wish they were a bit more of a team at times, but you know, I think some of that's normal, and my my boys are only 18 months apart, so the arguing and the fighting at the moment is quite special. Yeah, uh we all we talk about we are a team when somebody's upset, the other two come in to support. When we're having good times, we all celebrate, we are a team. Um, and we've been through some very, very bumpy times together as a family, and I think that's what makes us really tight as a family now. But I was thinking as well around boundaries, is that when we're kind of working working, when that's we're working, but when you're as a parent and you're coming up against systems, you might be coming up against your local authority. Boundaries must be really important in that as well, in how to again to protect yourself and keep yourself safe. And again, those can be hard to one know what your boundary is, and two, how do I reinforce my boundary, especially when there's quite a lot of scaremongering, and if you don't, then this will happen. And my the biggest thing I have is that I've just waited six months for um an annual review um update on his EHCP to come. I can't tell you how many people I've had involved, and I've been through it should never have happened, and it did. It tried to take out stuff that and hadn't told me about it and all sorts of stuff. It was horrible for six months. Um, and it eventually came through, and I've gone off on a tangent and can't remember where I was. I do that all the time. When you're working with local authorities and you're exhausted as a parent anyway, you don't know what your boundaries are. It's gone out of my head. Is that home? I'm leaving this in, you know. If you're here I'm gonna leave this. We can see you if you feel like this. Yeah, we are one of you. It's gonna be mid-conversation. I'm thinking I had a really good point and it's not gone completely uh it'll pop back in about five minutes' time. Um we'll be finished recording, probably. Um I suppose it's knowing oh that was what it was. It was uh it was when you push the boundary, when you kind of stick to your boundary, is then a worry that you will be seen as that parent. You will be I worry that something will be done because I'm doing that, because I'm not sticking to what I should what they say I should. I'm not being a good parent, and what I mean by good parent is quiet and subservient and doing what they tell me and just letting things happen, that something will happen. They will do something just kind of despite me, if that makes sense. So I've always worried about my boundaries, and I kind of have these boundaries that that flex, um, depending on how confident, how well I feel in myself. Um, and I think boundaries are then quite tricky when we start working with big systems. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You've got to feel well in yourself. You have you know, even with my little boundaries at home, if I'm under the weather, like I just said, it could all fall apart. Because I wake up in the morning feeling a bit better, going, oh my god, it's just chaos and anarchy here. Um but it's similar to the local authority, and I think sometimes, you know, being a seasoned send parent myself, I got it so wrong to start with because I was going in, kind of going, I know my rights, you're gonna do this, you do that. She, my child is the most beautiful, perfect child of the world, leave her alone. Um and now I'm very different, and now I'm more therapised. I like that word. I don't think it is a word, but I'm gonna use it. I've got one of the similar therapatized, I use, yeah. Um, but yeah, I feel very different now. I'm much more mellow in my old age, but the but the boundaries have to be the same, and they do need to flex, and it depends on who you're talking to. Um, and one of the things that I try and do my hardest, and it's so hard to do sometimes because sometimes you just want to do the whole sort of I know you're wrong, you are so wrong in what you just said, but instead it's so hard to do, but you have to do it. It's that being curious. So going, okay, I don't want them to be judgmental, I want them to be curious, and I have to afford them the same. So it's like keeping a smile on your face, even though you perhaps don't want to, and then go, I'm really curious about what you just said about um that on the day exclusion. That I mean, I've read a book and it sounds a bit unlawful, but I just wondered if you could elaborate, you know, and it's that very gently, like, I'm gonna throw that bit of lore in there and I'm gonna tell you the name of the the um person who wrote the book, and they're really brilliant. Um, but you know, being that curious person can sometimes you get get you further. I mean, but again, sometimes accepting that the the people you're dealing with are just not your kind of people. Um, and you know, I I've dealt with some local authority workers. More often than not, they're awful. I'll be honest with you. And for whatever reason, they come into it with their prerogative, they're coming to it having just had an argument with another parent, being attacked by another parent. I get it, I get it. But I can only deal with what they're talking to me about. You know, I can only comment on what their their sort of uh transaction with me is, and I get it. They've got their stuff, I've got my stuff, and I can only ever another thing that I'm bringing into the new year is not to react but respond with intention. Yes, and that takes a lot because you have to pause, and actually pausing can sometimes make people feel quite unnerved, which is not a bad thing either, because you're not doing anything wrong as a parent to sit there and say, you know, even if your your face is saying, Allow me some time to process, um, because I need to sort of collect my thoughts and not punch you in the face. That's what's going through in your head, don't punch the don't punch them. But then there will be others, you know, like my kids go to a school now, all three of the little ones are in a school, mainstream school, the staff are amazing. They talk to me like a human being. That's what it all c comes down to. They ring me up. I mean, one of them, she is just like me, but she is 14 and I'm in my 40s. And um, she'll, you know, I'll get the phone calls and they're like, Hi, Krista. Uh, yeah, it's it's Marnie. Um, what it is is, oh Chris, I've been rolling my eyes at her. I'm about to say, Do I get out? I can't deal with you right now. And I'm like, yeah, I feel like that every day with that one. Because she's just like me. Um, and you could just have a bit of banter with them. And I think having that sort of very normal relationship, but again, you can't predict that and you can't control it, you can't control that other person. So, again, another thing I always think about is circle of control. I can only control me in those scenarios, and it's hard. And, you know, I have previously said, please can I step out so I can collect my thoughts and just re-regulate my nervous system. And again, speaking like that and not, can I step outside? You know, it's hard. Trust me, it's hard, you know, particularly as an ADHD, where one of the big things is emotional dysregulation. But being able to say, please could you afford me just a moment to step out? You know, you're very polite. And then you step out, or you go to the loo, or whatever, and you do what you need to do. You need, you know, you need to cry, or I've got Crohn's disease, so it really does affect my bowel when I'm upset. Um so sometimes I just do need to run to the loo. But, you know, having that time and being able to sort of go into a meeting and think to yourself, right, this might dysregulate me. I'm gonna I'm accepting of that. I'm accepting of that. That is my boundary. I'm accepting of myself, and my downfall in this is that I will react, my nervous system will react to these people in the room. How am I planning to deal with that? I am going to ask if I could step out of the room. And how will I know if I'm going? It's almost like, and I know that zones of regulation don't work for everybody, they work for one, it works for one of my kids beautifully. Like she's such a brilliant self-advocate. And she'll say, I'm coming out of green, I need dream, you know? And you want to do that with yourself. If I can feel my fingers tingling, if I can feel my heart beating, if my throat, because but me, I've got selective mutism, low profile, if my throat starts to seize up, I need to get out. It's not going to fix itself by continuing to stay in that environment.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah.

Positive What-Ifs, Contingencies, And Failing Forward

Grief, Resilience, And Practicing What We Preach

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Um, and they will pause the meeting because it would be really unethical for them to carry the meeting on with you out of the room. So you ask, please, can I pause? I need to step out. It's about practicing that, isn't it? I think because as a parent, especially sometimes maybe if you've had bad experiences at school yourself as a kid, maybe, that you're now in a school meeting, say, for example, and you're in there, and then maybe the there's all these teachers in there and you're there on your own, because often we are outnumbered as parents in meetings, is to be able to make that, I just need to step outside, please, can take a lot of courage to do that. And I often talk with parents about it's practice. That's that's the only way round that one is to is spot it like you're talking about, but practice it and stay start saying, I just need five, even sometimes when you don't, but just start practicing it because, like you say, it would be so unethical of them to be able to refuse that of you. I don't think I've ever had that happen in the how many years I've been as a professional in meetings, and I've had a number of parents say, Can I step out? It's never been refused. Oh, absolutely. I mean, everybody would frown upon the person who said no. Absolutely. But it's still it's quite it feels like that you need quite a lot. Some people might think, Oh, I could never say that. I would just sit there. And then we get into the whole masking, and you know, yeah. All that kind of stuff is I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, thinking actually I'm not inside, I am crumbling. And I I know when you're talking about noticing those signs. For me, I always know it's my breath. I start to run out of breath as I'm talking. And that's because I'm getting more and more agitated by what they're saying, and I can feel myself pushing right to the end because I've got to get everything out. And then I think, right, you've got to step out for a second. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, what I think is really important is that we're talking about this because we're recognising we, you know, you you do what you do, you understand what's going on in your body because of your work and your efforts. Expertise. And likewise, the uh research and the work that I've done over the years, I've started to recognise a lot of therapy as well. Um, I've started to recognise what the differences are in me. Now, one of the things that I do do is after I've had one of those meetings, I share it over dinner with my with my kids. So I'm like, you know what, today, girls, I was in a meeting and I was talking about your EHCP. Um, and they said something that really triggered an emotional and nervous system response. Can I talk to you about it? And they're like, oh yeah, because they love listening like this. And I'll say, Do you know what the first thing I felt was tingling in my fingers or whatever. Then I felt a shortness of breath. Then I felt that my throat was going to seize up. What would you have done? And then ask them the question. And again, it's all that emotional coaching that is a very normal conversation. This is not sitting in with a therapist because so many parents think that in order to teach their kids this, they have to send the kids on courses or send the kids to a therapist, like an emotional therapist. It's magic what you can do over dinner. And so it's normalizing the language, isn't it? And that's what I talk about. It's with the parents, I okay, it's normalizing that language. Start talking about it at home, but talk about you. It doesn't have to be about the kids all the time, that they're doing something wrong or they need to be better at something. It's no thing in me. Oh, I feel this, this is what happened, and exactly like you're doing over dinner. You know, I talk to my boys about you. I don't I'm not feeling great today. You know, I feel a bit anxious, my tummy's a bit rumbly today, you know, all that kind of stuff, and I'm not feeling great. I might be a bit snappy today, I think. I just think, and and often like my youngest, actually, who is my uh he's autistic, will say to me, Do you want a cup of tea, mum? My oldest one. No. There's always certain ones in my lot, yeah. Yeah. My youngest will get me a cup of tea or glass of water, I get. And it's like anything I can do to help. That's so nice. Yeah. But I think it is from just a very embedded way of teaching. It just becomes the norm. And that also then helps with boundary setting. Because if they truly understand and they go, God, mum's had a really tough day. Sometimes then, you know, you spoke speaking about this EHCP meeting or whatever, and the fact that you had to bring it to an halt and step out because you needed a bit of a cry and and adding in there as well, it's not the child's fault, even though it's their EHCP, and it's it might not be the teacher's fault or whoever. It's just that at that moment you became triggered, and that belongs to you. And so, in order to take control of that, this is what you did, and ask them what they would have done. But also, then afterwards, you might find, you know, the more you do it, your kids will then go, I'm gonna load the dishwasher for mum tonight, or I'm gonna pour her a cup of tea, or do you want that special biscuit that you were saving for you know a rainy day, literally, um, and so it it comes from just embedding it in what you do, but also one of the things that I've worked on a lot in my therapy is mum guilt. And I think this stops us from creating boundaries because so often we sit there and we go, Oh god, but you know, perhaps I shouldn't have asked them to do that. Maybe I should be doing. I mean, I am their mum, I should probably be doing it. Yeah, no, I should work myself into the ground, burn myself, you know, right into the floor. Um, and it doesn't really matter. Well, of course it matters because without you, there are no them. Without you, they can't learn. Without you, they can't survive, without you they can't eat or whatever. And people come to my house and they'll say, you know, I just well, I'll tell you what it was. Just recently, this is a really good example of what I was about to say. Um, I was stuck in a disability a disability discrimination tribunal for one of my children. It was a few weeks ago, just before Christmas, and the the actual hearing went on from nine in the morning till gone six at night, and I was expecting to have been home, and I thought, I don't want to do it at home, I want to do it in my office because then I'm keeping the stress out of the home. Like I was feeling more about the energies, you know. So my husband and I, we sat in my office at work, we did the tribunal, and my kids had come home from school, and I was like, Oh god, I'm not there for them. So I'm trying to text, sort of like, are you all okay? And they're all okay. And one of my friends popped in and she's like, I popped in and the kids were all cooking their dinner. And I said, Oh, great, fab. She said, Did you tell them to? And I said, No. But there's emergency supplies, so there's always a bag of pasta and that lovely clean hind sauce that's really nice, which is just the ingredients. So they know they just boil the pastora and then they put the sauce in. They love it, it's like my favourite tea, a bit of grated cheese on top, sorted. But also I know, because I've taught them in an emergency, if you need food, that's what you go for. It's nice and easy, you all know how to do it. And my friend was like, I couldn't believe it. I come in, they were having this meal around the table. I said, but that's what's normal. So they just maintained what was normal. They didn't sit there going, I'm starving, mum's not here. They actually just self-served, you know, they were self-servicing. So it again, though, that comes from years of boundaries, years of coaching, years of training, years of me losing it as well. But it's also being kind to yourself after those scenarios and kind of going, oh god. And saying to the kids, do you know what? It's not your job to regulate my emotions. But what you did really annoyed me yesterday and it wound me up to a point where I couldn't tolerate it anymore. I'm sorry I snap. Yeah. And we start again. Yeah. And, you know, is it's just being open. I think that actually that, you know, you don't have to bear your soul or your problems to your kids in order to have a transparent relationship. You can still have a transparent relationship and understanding as well that you're the boss. You know, I think so many parents they do this gentle parenting thinking that actually the parent the kids are on the same level. It's not about hierarchy, it's about safety.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Your kids need you to create boundaries and help them to maintain theirs. Yes. And without them, it feels very unsafe. Yeah. You know, I always think about when newborn babies are born and they come out and they've had this gorgeous little cocoon that they've been in for the last nine months. And then they come out and be like, oh my god! Yes. So, you know, when a newborn baby is born and they go from this beautiful, safe cocoon to the world, it's quite startling. And we need to remember that our kids are feeling the same every time they leave the house. So we need to help them to sort of it's like putting those bumpers up, you know, when you go bowling. It's just them sort of, yeah, you might bump into that side, you might bump into that, and that's okay. It's all right, the bumps are okay. And if there is any particular catastrophe, this is what you can do. But I think, you know, preparing ourselves, like I say, going back to the meetings, preparing yourself for this may not go swimmingly, I may become dysregulated. Passing that on to your children and saying, okay, today, if you go into school, like all three of mine have gone in for the first day today, all anxious, not um anxious as in school avoidance, anxious, but anxious because it's the first day back. And I noticed one of them shot off out of the house without even waiting for friends, just needed to get there. Like we may as well I'm ready, let's just get there, let's just get it over with, let's just get that first step into school. Um, another one then needed to put all the makeup on, you know. Oh, I need to have my mask on. Okay. And then the other one was like, oh God, everything's going right, and nothing is going right. She's so dramatic. It's great. I love her. She's so much and she's brilliant. And nothing is going right. And so she needed some emotional coaching to get out the door. Um, but I've said to them all, look, today might be brilliant, and I really hope it is. So let's go with the what if. What if all my friends are back today?

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Great.

Key Takeaways And Resources

SPEAKER_00 51:52

What if all my lessons go really well? Great. What if my teachers think, oh my god, this homework you've hammered in is the best homework I've ever seen? Oh, amazing. What if your favourite dinner is on the menu today? Oh, amazing. There may be some bad what ifs. What if my friends aren't there? What if I slip on the ice? What if whatever? But let's not overthink the negative. Let's try and overthink the positive. And you have to train your brain to do that. But also, what are you gonna do if something goes wrong? Who's your safe person that you're gonna go to? Ah, well, there's always a list of them. This teacher, that teacher, that dinner lady, whatever. Great, that friend. Brilliant. So it's having that contingency plan, you know, promoting the overthinking of positive and a contingency plan for realism, you know. Um and it's just prep. It's always prep. And just knowing that sometimes it's just not gonna go to plan. And that's okay because we always fail forward. That's another thing we talk about in the Wadlow household. Failing forward. What did you learn? It's all right, you failed, you slipped, whatever. It's okay. What did you learn? What what will you change next time? My mum used to talk about it that mistakes were missed takes.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

You just do another take and you try again. Um, and that's always stuck with me as you know, as a grown-up, where they're just missed takes. You just try another one. You try again. Um and there's always a way, she always used to say to us as well, there's always a way around. There's always a way around it. But there we'll find a way. We've just got to know what the what the issue is first and then we'll find a way around it. Absolutely. And uh I think I that's something that's we use a lot as well in our families talking about it's not the end of the world. Like my son's at the moment about to sit his GCSEs, he'll sit them in in June. Um, and he's got he's got himself quite anxious about it. And you know, talking about it, it's not the end of the world. There's a so much pressure. Oh my goodness, I went to one of the meetings at the school, I came out stressed. I know, as a parent. I thought I'm not even sitting these, I've done mine. And I'm stressed. Um, so it's it's just yeah, is it's that bit, but it's the recovery, isn't it, as well? Is that things will go wrong, things will always go wrong in life. It's never gonna be plain sailing for anybody, but it's how we recover from that. And I think a bit like you've talked about for us, it's that modelling. You know, we talk about, you know, I might be upset by something, but I recover, and I this is how I I do that. I don't, it's not the end of the world. And as parents, we do recover, and you'll recover as as children, as young people, as adults that you become. Um, and those skills are essential for them as they grow older.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Absolutely, and you've just got to practice what you preach.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Yeah, you know, for for years, you know, we've heard about parents saying, you know, you've got to eat your greens whilst the parents are not eating the greens. And it's exactly the same with emotional health, you know, nervous system health. We we do a lot uh of different things here. Um, and we we, you know, without getting technical, I know you'll understand this, but I'm not sure all the viewers will. We it's all about activating that prefrontal cortex when we're feeling safe. And we do a lot of crafts, a lot of activities, lots of things to make us laugh. So games over Christmas have been brilliant. Um, but um, I've lost my trail of thought now. This is my point, this is my time with my time to do it. Where was I going? I was leaving this one in as well to show it's not just me. Very real if you do this. Um, I think I was going along the lines of um not sitting in it yourself and kind of going, do you know what? I'm struggling to come out of this. I remember, yeah, yeah, so practicing what you preach is what I'm saying, and not sitting in the wallowing of self-pity, but allowing yourself to do it, saying to your kids, yes, you know, today I'm gonna wallow because I need to wallow. I need to sit here, feel a bit pathetic, feel rubbish because I know if I can move through it, don't try and avoid it, push through it at my own pace, then hopefully tomorrow will be a new day. I remember when my granddad died, my granddad is absolutely my biggest role model in life. He was everything to me, and he couldn't have done anything wrong in my eyes. So he was just the most wonderful man, and he lived a very wonderful, wonderful life. And um, when he died, and I knew he was gonna die, he'd been ill for a while, he'd had a long life, and I just said to the girls, you know, Grancia is what I called him. Grancha has died. Um, and one of my kids was really profoundly affected, even though she's the one of the youngest, so she hadn't really seen him very much because of COVID and stuff, she hadn't seen him. And um, so I said, Well, I'm gonna allow myself to sit and leave sit in this and lean into it. And I don't know how long it's gonna take, but I know it's not permanent. I know that I will come through the other side, and I I know I'm not um overly spiritual, but I will do whatever it takes to make myself feel better. So I you know, I sat with him and I was like, he's with me and he's gonna help me through this. And because of what he's taught me, he won't want me to sit in this for very long, but it's my pit, it's my grief, so I will sit in it for the length of time I need to. And one of my my girls were like, This is amazing because I think that's one of the things we're never taught is how to grieve. And grief doesn't apply just to death, it can apply to losing a school place, you know, yeah, not attending school, losing that institutionalized part of our lives. Because as much as people say it's bad, actually is all some of us know. So actually losing that, losing a friendship, losing anything at all. It could be anything. Some of our children, our neurodivergent children and us, become very attached to things. So losing an item, you know. Um I I fell in love with a car that I had, and I had it came to the end of the three-year lease, and I was I had to give it back, and I was devastated. Like I cried, and I was like, what an idiot. I'm like, oh no, you've just become really attached to this very safe thing, and it's okay. Sort of validating that, but knowing it's not going to be forever. You will move through it, but you have to allow yourself to move through it. Yeah, you know, but practicing what we preach is really important. I had to usually I usually as I go through my podcasts, I usually ask specific questions. I haven't done that today, Chris. But that's no, absolutely not, because I think we've answered them, but just without it being as formal, which I love. It's just been a chat, which I've really, really, really enjoyed. So I suppose it just leads me to say, I just kind of bring that together, and that's kind of a nice place to end, I think, is to thinking about is just it is that we can model. We can model boundaries, we can model recovery, we can model emotions. Um, and actually that has a huge impact. And as I always say with the kind of parents that I work with, and when I used to work with kids as well, is it's little and often, it's practicing little and often. You know, it's not about a professional coming in and curing everything in one session, it's never gonna happen. It's about little and often and how you can build that into your everyday to make things easier for you as a family, more fun for you as a family, and more moments of joy as a family. And as you say, acknowledging and knowing that there are gonna be downtimes, but that we do recover when we do move through it. Yeah. Thank you ever so much for joining me, Chris. It's been a delight, it really has, and I have been looking forward to this conversation, and I'm glad we finally got there. I will put in the show notes your contact details and the all the information around um sunshine as well, because you've got you have some great trainings, you've got some amazing you've got I'm quite excited. Have you had it yet? You had one of your um a trauma specialist coming to talk, and I can never pronounce her first name, but it's Fisher, isn't it? Janina. Janina Fisher, yeah. I mean, she is known all around the world, and we've actually got some bespoke courses she's done for us on our Sunshine Academy as well. So parents, professionals, anybody at all can log on and watch them. She's incredible. She's into trauma. Oh, she's just I was when I saw her, I was like, Chris, how did you get her? We've got loads from her as well. Like she loves what we do, but I think she's just so gentle. She's just amazing. She's a real uh I don't fangirl very often, right? Yeah. Well, if people are interested, as I say, I know you offer so much support in different ways, whatever kind of families might need, whether that's the more direct one-to-one support that people might think around kind of advocacy and stuff like that, but also the trainings and the groups and all the stuff that you do. And podcasts. You've got a podcast too.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

Yeah. What's the name of your podcast? Sip of Sunshine. Sip of Sunshine, that's it. So we'll give we'll I'll put all the links for there in the for that in the show notes as well. Oh, thank you. Thank you ever so much, Chrissa. Thank you, and hopefully, again soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

Thanks, Liz. Bye.