Parents and Schools Working Together — Not Against Each Other When Kids Are Unable to Attend School

Over 170,000 children in England were severely absent from school last year, according to the Department for Education.

Behind that number are families, schools, and children all trying to navigate something incredibly complex.

In this episode, I’m joined by Terri Wyse (Wise Inclusion) and Rachel Helm (Helm Education Consultancy), who are supporting the podcast this season, to talk about emotionally based school anxiety (EBSA).

Here's the important part:

Parents and schools are often on the same side
But the system can push them apart

We talk about:

•  What EBSA really is (and why language matters) 
•  Why “just make them go to school” isn’t the answer 
•  The reality for families trying to keep their children safe 
•  The pressures schools are under behind the scenes 
•  How relationships can break down, and how to rebuild them 

This isn’t about blame.

It’s about understanding, collaboration, and finding a way forward — together.

Together, they are offering webinars and workshops focused on EBSA for both parents and professionals.

Upcoming Sessions:

•  📅 8th July – Webinar for School Leaders 
•  📅 2nd September – Webinar for Parents & Families 
•  📅 16th September – Joint Workshop (Parents + Schools) 

Podcast listeners receive £5 off using this code UNTYPICALPARENT5.

• School webinar
• Parent/carer webinar
• Workshop

This episode is supported by:

Terri Wyse – Wise Inclusion Terri Wyse
https://www.instagram.com/wyseinclusion/

Rachel Helm – Helm Education Consultancy
https://www.instagram.com/helmeducationconsultancy/

Link below to go straight to Insta

The Untypical Parent Podcast

The Untypical Podcaster

Transcript

A Shocking Absence Statistic

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome back to the Untypical Parent Podcast. I'm going to start today with a bit of a statistic. Over 170,000 children were severely, and when they say severely, apparently that meant over 50% of their time in school was not in school, were severely absent in 2023 to 2024. And that has come from the Department of Education in regards to pupil absence in schools in England. So the government know we have a bit of an issue with kids being able to attend school for a number of reasons. Now, this one sits a little close to my heart because this is something that I had for my son and has been a personal experience for me. But what I wanted to do today was to introduce two very special people to the podcast who have come forward to sponsor the podcast for this season, which I am delighted about. So I have the lovely Terry Wise who has Wise Inclusion, and we also have Rachel Helm, who has Helm Consultancy. No, Helm Education Consultancy. That's my select, yeah, they're all run the wrong way. Okay. So Rachel and Terry have joined me today, just really as a bit of an introduction, because it's really important that the podcast keeps running, and by them offering some sponsorship has enabled us to do that. But what I think is really important, I wanted to give Terry and Rachel a really good opportunity to come on and introduce themselves and talk a bit about what it is that they do and where they've come from and why they're doing what they're doing, because I think it might be really helpful for some of the listeners for the Untypical Parent Podcast. So, Terry and Rachel, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having us here. Very welcome. You're very welcome. So we're going to talk a little bit about EBSA. Now, I'm going to acknowledge for a moment is that there's a lot of terminology around this. Um what we're talking about is emotionally based school avoidance. Sometimes it gets called emotionally based school anxiety. In the past, it's been called emotionally based school refusal, sometimes EBSR, and still there is this the terminology doesn't feel quite right for a lot of people, and there's a lot of discussion around it. For argument's sake, today we are going to use the acronym EBSA, but we acknowledge that that might not be quite an accurate description of what that actually means. But if I started with you, Rachel, what is EBSA? How would you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

So I I'm not usually very picky about language, if I'm honest. Um, I am not easily offended by most language at all. I've worked with a lot of young people who use some very cultural language. Um but I think because of the personal link, the word avoidance in EBS8 does it does bother me because it does have connotations with a choice. So for me I use EBS 8 as in anxiety based because that's what my child has experienced. Um but I know there are so many terms, and for me it's not it's not one particular term, um, but I know that each parent will have a difficulty with you know some or one of the terminologies. Um but for me it is it's the anxiety that's starting to build up for young people, and I think anxiety has become a term that has gone through a stage of people saying it's been overused, but now it is actually describing what these young people are going through because their school system doesn't fit what they need.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Yeah, absolutely. So, Terry, why the interest in EBSA? Why are you and Rachel interested in EBSA? What does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

So, for me, I'm a head teacher of a special school, and way before the acronym ever existed, um, I started to see a certain cohort of children coming through education who had really high levels of anxiety. And even within our setting where we're able to really adapt as you know, in lots of different ways to meet a full range of needs, we were still seeing children that were really struggling to attend school. Um, there was, I would say, quite a link there with the um children that had been diagnosed autistic or were presenting um as being autistic. And so we realized that even within our setting, we had to start offering something a little bit different if we were going to keep these children attending school. And I think there was evidence even then that there were real issues around safety and the feeling of safety in an educational setting, and some of that we were dealing with for a few as a result of what was going in in our setting, but mostly it was things that had gone on at primary school, or if we were admitting children um to our setting in year eight or year nine where it had gone wrong in secondary school in a mainstream secondary setting. And so um I think that's where we started to try um different ways of supporting needs, and for some of the children it did work, and for others it didn't, but over time we've developed our practice at our setting. Um, and now we've got a provision in place that I think really does meet the majority of children's needs if they are um children that have experienced challenge in in mainstream settings. Um the then we had COVID, and then I think the label came after that, the acronym, that's when I started to hear it. In where my part of the country it's EBS NUS who's to throw another phone emotionally based school non-attendance, that's what okay. That's another one, okay. That's the one that um I use. And when I I first started speaking to Rachel, we kept I kept slipping into that. We were like, there's there's an extra N in here somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Um, but yeah, so so we parents, doesn't it? When you think about parents trying to navigate this, actually there isn't um a unified name for it even across the counties.

Blame Culture And Parent School Friction

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Yeah, it's it's very difficult to have that shared language. Yeah. Um and also when you you throw in the mix, the I think in educational settings before anxiety became well no, not I suppose it's where anxiety became linked to the setting causing the anxiety. I think as educationalists, we were very much taught about attachment and children may be struggling to attend school because they were so attached to being at home and there there would be uh uh issues around attachment needs there with with uh often the the mum. But I think that's where then it's been hard for some schools to accept that the issue is actually school.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Um I think then that that creates what Terry and I have, I suppose kind of the backbone of why we've come together. It it's then kind of we see this friction between families and the school of you know, I suppose people need ownership and um and accountability. And when your child is going through something and experiencing something like EBSA, you start you you want to put a cause on it so that you can address that cause. Um and often there's no single cause. Um and often it's on the back of so with my daughter, she was it's plane sailing through school, she's not the child that I thought we would have difficulties with. I've had years of fighting for my for my older son who's got disabilities and um physical disabilities and autism, and I've had years of fighting for him, and she was always there, she's gonna be the fine, she's gonna be okay. And it was her who then transitioned into secondary, but I think all all the way deep down as a mother, I knew this is too easy. It's this this transition's far too easy. This has gone very simply, um, and then it started going wrong, you know, and then when you experience it as well from a parent perspective, I think your eyes are opened a little bit more to um I think you get a lot of we'll just make them go to school, or or you're you're causing it as a parent, you're you're enabling, you're allowing. Um, and actually when you're a parent, and also I am a parent who works in the education system and has worked in education for 20 years. Um, you know, I I know the education system, I know different settings, I've worked in very different settings, so it's not just a case of make them just make them go.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

It's really complex, isn't it? I think, like from my experience as well. And a bit like both of you, my background was in, you know, working through education. I was writing, you know, occupational therapy reports for tribunal, going into schools and working with the kids, working alongside schools, and yet you were seeing when I came to it myself as a parent, it was something completely different. I think I thought I could just sail through it, I would just know the language, I'd be alright. And I we were really lucky the school relationship that we had was brilliant with the school, but it still broke down even at that point. You know, it became it wasn't the right environment. I think all the time there is this you can get this kind of adversarial thing going on, can't you, between parents and school. And sometimes I wonder whether actually, like you're talking about, Rachel, there's this blame thing. There's got to be an answer, there's got to be a reason for something. And actually, there's a bigger thing at play, which nobody has control over, which is around the government and policies and procedures and what you've got to do. And as a parent, you've got to do this, and as a school, you've got to do that. And then I think what ends up happening is then that's when the adversarial stuff starts to come in, and it becomes a really, really difficult relationship to hold um and manage.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

And that's where we wanted to do a piece of work around it because when we started, we met online, um, actually on uh EBA. Facebook, yeah. So it was a Facebook group, support group. Um, I put in an anonymous message because I wanted to explain that my background was that I was a head teacher and it was a parent group. And I I know, and you know, I've worked with so many parents over the years, and it is it must just be so hard. Um, and I know that there's a lot of emotion out there. Um, but Rachel actually commented on one of my messages, and we talked about doing something together, and then um met up online outside of that. And when we were starting to brainstorm what could we offer, who are we offering it to, why are we doing it? The thing that we talked about a lot in those early conversations was that that real issue around the poor relationship often between the parents and the schools, when actually the frustrations, whilst they're caused by different things, both sides are extremely frustrated. That there are certain blockers that get in the way when it comes to meeting the needs of the child, and that actually both sides want the best for that young person. It's just that the system is just so hard to navigate, and there are different pressures on both sides. Um, and so we wanted to do something that would support both professionals working in stalls and the families and help them to come together and form better and more positive relationships in the best interest of the child. Um, because yeah, the it's the the child is so important in all of this, and the parent, I completely understand, wants to fight for that child and the right thing for that child, and there are certain pressures from the government, from the local educational authority on the school, and I think sometimes the the the um staff within the school don't appreciate how challenging it is for the parents, and likewise the parents don't always understand the constraints that are in place and are posed upon the school by the local educational authority, and it it just bringing those things to light as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

And I think that that the old kind of the old saying of don't shoot the messenger, I think that's what what I see in my my work a lot with parents, and and I've been through it as a parent but also as a professional, and the sis and it and the fight is hard. So for a parent who doesn't know the system, it it's you know it must be absolutely impossible. Um and and I I think what you get is the school are the people that the parents can speak to, and the parents are the people that the school can interact with, so then then it ends up a little bit of a fight, but it's not like like Terry said, both sides want what is best for that young person. Both sides have very different pressures, and but it's it ends up being, you know, the school's the messenger of of what the local authority is imposing, the parent is the messenger of what the child is telling them, and then it ends up in a in a little bit of a battle almost. But but what Terry and I kind of said was actually both sides are feeling very, very similar things, so hopefully we can try and bring that together so that there can be mutual understanding from from both parties.

Webinars And A Joint Workshop

SPEAKER_03 13:59

I think sometimes it's what it's it's you only know what you know, isn't it? So, you know, like you're saying, we all sit and we've we've sat in the systems, we know the systems, but actually there'll be parents out there that don't and are trying to find their way through this sometimes chaos of an education system, and then you've also got teaching staff maybe that maybe haven't come across that child's needs before, it's not an area they've worked in before, they're fairly new to teaching, it's not what it's not how the school's set up to work, all those kind of things that actually sometimes as well, it's about you know it's that education piece, isn't it? On both sides is being able to explain and and talk about and have those open conversations without people feeling super vulnerable, super scared. Um, and I think you know, my experience as a parent is at times, you know, our kids are really, really poorly, and we're trying to keep them safe. And it's how we do that in a in a in a way that we can keep them safe, but they can still go to school, but the school can still do that. It's you know, it's so complex. And like you said right at the beginning, the needs of the kids are caught are often very complex. It's never just I'll just do that and a tick box, everything will be fine. It's it's gonna be complicated, and it's gonna take tweaking and movement and try this and try that, and and sometimes the setting is just not the right setting, and you know, where'd you go then? Um I was really excited. So when I heard this is what you were doing, and and the fact that when you weren't just going down one route, you weren't just going, right, okay, teachers need this, and if we just do this, then it'll all be okay. Or we just need to go down the parent route, and if they just sorted things out at home were a bit stricter, everything would be okay. So I was really interested to know that you were gonna offer these these kind of two options, and then when I was having a look today as well, almost kind of like an amalgamated option for both parents and school, which really excited me. So, I don't know who wants to go first. I'm gonna throw this away at both of you, but explain to the listeners exactly what it is you're offering and and when this is coming up.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

So, um, we're doing two um webinars, which will be the traditional information sharing mainly. Um, the first one specifically aimed at leaders, educational leaders, um, on the topic of EBSA, and then the second one is for parents and families, again, information sharing and tips and advice, and there'll be different resources and tools also that we'll share for those that sign up for those. But then the workshop will be for both, and it will be more around that relationship and it will be more interactive, a bit more sharing, um, and again, just to be able to explain as well, I suppose, and be heard um within that session. Um, because I think there's there's also there's there are not enough opportunities. So, as uh educational leader, I sit in rooms with other educational leaders and we talk about this topic, but we're not talking to the parents and hearing from the parents other than the specific parents that you might be dealing with, where it's quite emotionally charged, and and you know, you're trying to just find a way through that particular scenario and that issue. Um, so so it's a bit we it's we'll have to see how it goes. I'm hoping that it's really positive for those that attend. Um, but yeah, we just felt that there needed to be more of an interactive session for the And this was gonna happen during the summer?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

So no, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

No one, Rachel.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

The the first we're the first webinar that we're aiming at school leaders is on Wednesday, the 8th of July. Okay. Um because what we thought that would be a good opportunity to kind of reflect back on the academic year and then think about okay, how can we move forward into the new academic year? Whereas the second webinar we're looking at for the 2nd of September, Terry. Yeah, I think which is again for parents and families, because we will we were trying to think about what are the most crucial times, and there is there is no easy time for a parent or a family who's going through this with their young person, but right at the beginning of a new academic year after the summer is probably, I would say, for a lot of people, the crux of you know, this is where a real big transition's about to take place again, and and how might the next year look. Um the workshop, because what I find as well when with a lot of parents I work with is sometimes I'll just go to meetings with them and I come away and think, Well, I haven't actually done, I haven't done very much within that meeting. But then the parents said to me, actually having you there gave me the confidence and enabled me to have those difficult conversations with the school. And then the school and the parent have actually then got onto a much more level playing field and being able to collaborate and work together, and they just needed that little bit of facilitation. So the workshop would, you know, we're hoping would be a nice opportunity for parents and families and schools to come together and have those discussions that might be a little bit more difficult, especially like Terry said, in certain situations where emotions are very, very high and it's a one-on-one situation. Yeah. Hopefully they'll, you know, there'll be joint discussions and maybe then there might be a shared perspective of, you know, yes, we're we are actually we're all feeling the same thing, we all want the same thing for the young person. So how can we work together? That would, you know, the ultimate goal is how can everyone work together better.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Yeah. And what we'll do at the bottom of this episode on the show notes is we'll obviously put the links for these webinars and then the workshop as well. Because I remember.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Didn't it say that day?

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Okay, but your teacher stuff just before the summer holidays, yeah, and then your parent stuff just in the new kind of academic year, and then followed by your workshop, which is way together. Okay. And we'll put those links there so people can find them. I'll also on all of our um season five episodes, there will be Rachel and Terry's links anyway, so you can always pop onto their Insta or their LinkedIn or their Facebooks and check them out there as well. There'd be more information. Is there anything else before I kind of sign you off there? Is there anything else that you kind of want to be able to share with parents or with educators that you think I haven't covered with you as during our chat?

SPEAKER_02 20:25

For me, I think it's only the bit around um the fact that I'm very, very passionate about changing and adapting education and educational settings in order to meet the needs of young people. And so a lot of the work I do, which would be part of this, but also outside of this through wise inclusion, is working with leaders to think about how they can better improve, change, and adapt education in their schools to meet the needs of a variety of children with special educational needs and neurodiversity. And um I think that there is, whilst there's a lot in the white paper that is not particularly pleasing, I think it is actually a point in time now where everyone within the education field are talking about inclusion. And um, yeah, so I think that it's quite exciting times um for those that are willing as educational leaders to bring about some change. Um and there's feel like there's a bit of momentum going in that direction, which is really positive.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

It's a good time as well with the white paper because I think from a parental perspective, a lot of parents and families are now very worried that there will be that that I think things will go become more negative. Um and I think it's a good time to show parents and families and school leaders that actually know you can be empowered. And speaking as one voice, we speak a lot louder. Yeah, um, and be heard. So I you know, I kind of I set up home education. And left mainstream education because I became disenchanted myself and I can't change the system. But if I can change a tiny bit of the system, then you know why not? And actually, you know, our voices do speak a lot louder.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Yeah, and I never thought about it like that, I suppose, because I know that there's a big parent movement now. The parents are very vocal now, and I celebrate that. I think it's amazing that they are now making themselves really heard around some of these really difficult topics and things that have been probably left unchallenged for quite a long time in education. But I'd never really thought about actually bringing schools in on top of that. All those extra voices.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

And there's there's a huge amount of concern around um a lot of what's in the white paper within educational fields because it's around the I think everybody within education, as I said, wants to do right by the children. They believe in inclusion, they believe in in support, they want to um have the resources and the capacity in order to provide for the children, but that comes with funding. We need funding, mainstreams need funding in order to be able to pay for teaching assistance, to be able to pay for the resources and build in the capacity, do the interventions. And that's the bit that's the concern in the white paper, I think, is that that a the funding isn't it whilst there are um sort of bursts of funding and money for certain things, it's the concern I have been raising is for a child in my setting, in a special school setting, they'll get this amount of funding, but that same child, if they're placed in a mainstream, will not get the same level of funding, and that needs to be addressed, as well as obviously the expertise and the skills and the knowledge and all of that, the development of staff in mainstream. Um but and then from the parent point of view, you've got the fact that the issues over the EHCPs and children's rights, and that's a huge concern, and that will only fall to schools because of the support plans, will then become purely driven by the schools, and uh they need to be able to have the knowledge, skills, expertise, and time to get that right, to get that piece of work right for the children and the families. So I think it is, as Rachel said, it's there are concerns, different, slightly different concerns on each side, but huge concerns across both families and in schools. So the coming together to to argue that and and do I've been really trying to push for as many people that I know and and speak with within the education field to do that response to the consultation um before the 18th of May, because it is vital that we all we all make our point and and you know fight for what our children deserve. Yeah.

Discount Code Perfect Parent Question

SPEAKER_00 24:52

And there are there are schools have faced so much pressure that a lot of families don't realise. And as as a parent, your child's the one that matters, but actually to change the system, the they you know, we all need to understand each other better um and realise schools are not the enemy, and equally parents are not, you know, but but sometimes you do need to kind of let off, you know, a little bit of fire and a little bit of rage, but if that's heard and then and then everyone's sitting more on the same page, it's going to be stronger.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Um I think we didn't mention as well for anyone listening to the podcast who books through the links that you share, there is a discount um code that's attached to those that will give a discount of five pounds per um webinar or workshop, whichever you know is most suitable for people to join. What I was a bit gutted though is that you didn't ask us about the perfect parent thing because I did loads of uh with market research with my children, so I think we need to get in at the end instead.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

But we're we're asking it. Because I said to you I was gonna ask you, didn't I? And I forgot. Yes, but I did market research with my kids because I thought I am not answering them. Are you ready for the question? Are you the perfect parent?

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I'm going to give the responses that I'm that my children give. So my youngest, who's seven, this was his response. So Rachel just shrugged for those that haven't got audio, uh video. Whereas my daughter, I thought this was absolutely beautiful. She said, You are perfect in the imperfect situations. And I was like, wow, that's so poetic, and I didn't hear her to say that. Um, and then my eldest son said that I'm an alright parent, but I'm usually late and that I may need to work on that.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

It's not wrong. You've got some homework to do Rachel, which is to work on your lateness.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

I like it. I love that. Love that. What about you, Terry? Because I can't let you get all get away with it.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah, no, I didn't do any market research. Uh so I'm just going to reflect for myself. Um, no, I'm not a perfect parent. I often wonder how I managed to keep it together so well in school and have lots of strategies to deal with other people's children, but very few of my own for my own children. Um, and I think the first one, when I had the first one, apart from not sleeping very well because he was a bit of a poorly baby, I thought we were really good parents. I thought we'd, you know, we really knew what we were doing because he was really quite straightforward and did as he was told. But then I had baby number two, who was very headstrong, very, very headstrong, and still does well, he's too much like me, I think. I think that's the problem. So, no, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

But do you know what? I think as parents, I think we carry a lot of guilt all the time. Yeah. The guilt about everything. And actually, do you know what? I think that my kids are doing okay. So I think I'm I'm an okay parent, and I think it's okay to say I'm a pretty good parent.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

That's all you need to be. You need to be good enough about you.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

That's what I'm good enough. Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for the reminder, Rachel. I would have been gutted if I'd missed that.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

My son would have been really annoyed if I hadn't have got his little thing. He did ask to come on the call, and I said, no, it's not about you. Oh no. Everything's always about him. It's time, it's time for me to shine. Okay. Move over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

You've not had any pets in this one either.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Usually, pets in this one. No, but I do, yeah, I do like to feature pets in a lot of the calls that I do.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

I need another podcast episode where we just bring all the family in, all the pairs. Animal therapy. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Oh, I I want to thank both of you so much. As I say, I'm so grateful for your sponsorship of the podcast. It's what helps it keep going. It helps me keep delivering it and putting it out there to parents and making sure that it's available for parents for free, that you know, there isn't a cost to parents to access the podcast. But also for professionals. I was talking to someone today, a professional, another OT, who's saying that she listens to it, just you know, information for her work and her understanding about what parents go through. So it it it supports a whole heap of people, and I'm really appreciative of it. And I know the listeners will be too that it gets to keep going. So thank you for being the sponsors for season five. Welcome to the podcast. Um and if anyone has got any questions for Rachel or Terry, you'll find their details in the show notes. You will find them on each of the episodes through series five. Reach out, say hi to them. I'm sure they'd love that. They'll be around, I'm sure, commenting on posts and stuff like that. That if you want to grab reach out and ask me a question, do that. There are so many of us out there with kids that are struggling to attend school. You are not on your own. And equally, if you are a school, I'm sure there's schools out there that they cannot be a school out there that doesn't have kids that are struggling to attend. So they can reach out too. So thank you both ever so much, and I will look forward to speaking to you soon. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thanks.