Burning In, Not Burning Out: A New Way to Think About Burnout with Rhiannon Crispe

Parents are often told to rest more, practise self-care, or take a break when they're overwhelmed.

But what happens when the demands never stop?

In this episode, I have the absolute pleasure of talking with fellow occupational therapist, Rhiannon Crispe, where we talk about burnout, parenthood, values, boundaries, belonging and the things that truly fuel us.

Rhiannon talks about her Burn-In Model, a framework built around the idea of protecting and nurturing your inner flame.

Because burnout isn't about being weak.

It's about what happens when life asks more of us than we have available to give. 

You can connect with Rhiannon on: Instagram and LinkedIn and find out about the Burn In Framework here: https://www.burninnotout.com/the-burn-in-model

Thank you to this season’s sponsors:

Terri Wyse & Rachel Helm
They are offering EBSA support through webinars and workshops.Podcast listeners receive £5 off using this code UNTYPICALPARENT5

The sponsors of this season of the podcast are Terri Wyse https://www.instagram.com/wyseinclusion/and Rachel Helm https://www.instagram.com/helmeducationconsultancy/. Please do reach out to them if you are supporting a child or young person struggling to access school.

Transcript

Why Talk About Burnout Now

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back to the Untypical Parent Podcast. I'm really delighted today to have a guest, a fellow OT, which is always exciting, another occupational therapist to talk to about OT stuff. I have got the fabulous Rannon Crisp with me today. Rennan, thank you so much for being with us. Such a pleasure, Liz. Thanks for having me. People that listen to the podcast will know that burnout is something that I talk a lot about, particularly in relation to parents. And what I was discovering when I was thinking about it, Rihanna, was I actually look back through my whole catalogue of podcasts, and we're coming up to 50 now, is I have never done an episode on burnout. So I've had all these guests on, and the thing that I talk about the most, I don't actually haven't done an episode about. So I'm really looking forward to having a conversation today where we can talk a bit about burnout. So have you kind of got a personal connection to burnout? Is that where your kind of interest has come from, Bennin?

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, great question. I think I don't think, as per the current clinical definition, I've been burnt out if I reflect on it. I definitely feel I've had periods of burning out. So when we look at burnout, there are there is a period before you actually burn out where you're burning out. And I've had that period for sure, uh, where I felt exhausted, fatigued, felt like everything was on top of me. I felt helpless, I couldn't get things done. You know, I am a perfectionist, I have high standards, I'm reliable, I like to get the job done. And when there's too many demands and not enough resources, and whether they're like my own internal resources or the things that I actually have to work with, whether that's in work life or my personal life, then I have had these times where it life has just felt really tough. And I feel like I've ticked a lot of the symptoms for burning out, for sure. And I I love too that you said that you talk about burnout in terms of how it relates to parents, because the current definition is just related to the workplace. It's currently You just read my mind then.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

That's where I was going with my question, and you read my mind. Go for it. Because this is the bit, and I think we've had a conversation, haven't we? You kind of through LinkedIn, I think, with this frustration around the the kind of criteria around what is burnout. And I think as OTs, probably we're like, what do you mean occupation is just work? It's got to be more than that. It surely has to be more than that. But actually, at the moment, that's what it's it's classified as, is is a work-based phenomenon.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yes,

The WHO Definition And Its Limits

SPEAKER_01 2:55

yeah. So the the World Health Organization currently defines burnout as a chronic stressor that hasn't been successfully managed. And so you're right, there is the problem that it currently pigeonholes burnout to the workplace only. So the context of the workplace. And we know this. Like there is so much talk about people burning out at work. And I think the rates are like one in two. It's like 50% at least. 50 to 66%, I think.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

That's who reports it, isn't it? I think. Yeah. Because actually, I think some people don't even recognise that's what they're heading towards.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yes. And because it's not, I mean, it's very well talked about. People talk about burnout very casually, like, oh, I'm burnt out, oh, I'm burning out. It's very common to talk about it because there isn't that same stigma that there is around other mental health conditions, so depression, etc. Um, because it's currently it's not classified as a mental health condition. It is, as you said, an organizational, a workplace-based phenomenon.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

And so people feel more comfortable saying, like, I'm burnt out, I'm burning out.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Yeah. And I think also there's a this is kind of feel, isn't it, that that the way it's described by the World Health Health Organization is it's a failure. And I often think when I read it, it feels very much like a failure on the person's part, that they're somehow less of a person. And I think, you know, in days gone by, I've heard of people going, oh, you know, they they burn out, they're not resilient enough, they're not strong enough, they're not tough enough, they just need to toughen up a bit. You know, I wouldn't burn out. But actually, you know, I did a talk a little while ago and say we've all got the potential to burn out. We you know the perfect storm, we don't never know what's coming our way. That burnout is potential for it all of us, and actually, we're much better off thinking, well, I could. So what can I do about it? And how can I protect myself from it rather than ending up in burnout and then having to recover?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Mm-hmm. Exactly. So if we're to dissect that definition, so a chronic workplace stressor, so we've looked at the workplace and we've said, hey, actually, you know, there's more to that. But the other part is that hasn't been successfully managed. What you're alluding to here is that part saying that when we say that the person hasn't successfully managed this condition called burnout, we do point the finger. It feels like we're pointing the finger to the person and that it is an individual inherent problem within me.

unknown 5:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

And that means we're less likely to look at the environment and the problems that are causing the burnout in the first place. So, yeah, I I don't love the current definition of burnout. We know that there's autistic burnout, there's caregiver burnout, there's parents who have burnout, there's so many different types of burnout depending on the role that someone has and the context that they're in. There's lots of different types of burnout that occur in different places and spaces.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

And it's, I suppose, I do quite a lot of talking with parents about uh understanding and and and helping them to understand that it's not a failure on their part. And you talk a lot about in your model about misalignment and that. And I think as OTs, we often look very much at to the environment as well. To it's not just about you as a person, you are living within a system, an environment, a world, a life with other people and things and demands and all those kind of things. And actually, it just like you talked about earlier. I I think I've mentioned with parents is that it it just out the demands outweigh our capacity. And and and that's not a deficiency in us, that's just things have got huge. And the link I have with parents, of course, is that especially kids are parents that are in additional needs families, is often those stresses are really high, depending on the things that are around them, um, systems they're having to deal with, the needs of their kids, and a lot of the parents don't even realize they are burning out.

How Burnout Shows Up Day To Day

SPEAKER_00 7:06

So, what does burnout look like, Rihanna? How can't how might someone realize they might be burning out?

SPEAKER_01 7:13

It's a great question. So the current characteristics that they've identified, there are three. So the first one is exhaustion. Like you just feel depleted, you're totally exhausted. You just feel like you cannot fill up your cup. Uh, it doesn't matter if you go on holiday, you come back, and like you're exhausted in wherever you go. A holiday doesn't cure the exhaustion. Um, whereas if you just feel, you know, a little bit overworked or um there's something not right, if you go on a holiday, you come back, you're rejuvenated, you're refreshed, you're good to go. So the first one is that just chronic exhaustion. The second one is cynicism. So feeling really negative all the time. So if it is in regards to a workplace, you you're just negative about the whole workplace and nothing's going right, and you have this negative attitude towards it. The third one is um a lack of sense of accomplishment. You feel like you're not achieving anything. It's this reduced personal efficacy, they call it. So it basically means that you feel like you're not efficient, you're not good at your job, and you're not accomplishing anything.

unknown 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

There's a lot more to it. So I I agree with those three. And I also feel um, so there's been a lot of other work that's been done. Um, Gordon Parker has done a lot of work in this space, and he's identified other themes as well. So um there's this mental and cognitive load. So people describe brain fog, like you're foggy in the brain, and you you're just not as sharp as what you would be typically. You're not answering questions properly. It's taking you longer to reply to that email. You keep reading it over and over again, and you still can't process what exactly it is it's saying and how you're going to respond to it. Um, so you just feel fuzzy, fuzzy and and foggy all the time. And then there's like a social component too. So uh you're feeling less social. You you don't want to be as connected um to others. Um and so when you have all these factors or quote unquote symptoms, I don't I don't like to call them symptoms, but when you have all these characteristics, it there's a potential that you could have burnout. However, you really need to look at the context to determine whether it is burnout because you could you could have a negative attitude, you could be totally exhausted, and you feel like you're not accomplishing anything. But you could also be depressed, you could also have anemia, you could also have a number of other conditions. So, how do we know that it's burnout? So the clinician or the therapist or the health professional that's working with you may identify all those characteristics, but has to go, hey, like what's happening in your life right now? Like as occupational therapists, we need to get really curious and find out why are these things happening? And if we identify that there is this overwork that you're talking about, like the demands are too great, that there's too many chronic stresses in the person's life. If there is this misalignment between a person's values and the workplace or the caregiving duties that they're doing, or the amount that they're expected, or there's no reward or recognition for the work that they're doing in any capacity, caregiving, parenting, workplace jobs, then this is what contributes to the burnout. And we go, uh-huh, okay. This there is a clear pattern here, and this is consistent with what we know burnout to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah. I hear a lot of people kind of throw the word burnout around. It's very kind of oh yeah, like you say, I'm burnout. And I often hear, you know, coaches or counsellors or whatever talking about how they support burnout, and uh I get really upset about the self-care stuff.

Why “Just Rest” Can Backfire

SPEAKER_00 11:28

That kind of it's almost like a toxic self-care. And I think the way I describe it is is that I've been burnt out, so I not only did store myself burning out, I did completely burn out, and what you described there was exactly the kind of characteristics that presented for me as well. But what was so difficult is in that time there's a lot of pressure, and it felt like pressure to just look after yourself. Well, if you just those words, if you just take a holiday, and I like it, it's funny you said about the holiday, because I often say, You could have sent me to Barbados for four weeks on my own, it wouldn't have touched the sides. That wasn't what it was about, it was about everything that was happening, no amount of rest. Although rest is really important and it's part of it, it is not the sole answer. And that's the bit that I get, I think, because in every what happens is you say, Well, they need to do more rest, and then as parents, we can't. So then you get into this, well, I'm a rubbish parent, and if only I could, and then you're in this cycle, and that bit really worries me sometimes about when people are working and supporting purple people that are burning out or burnt out, is that they're not really looking at everything.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so what happens there is is that, like you said, you can go to the Bahamas, Barbados, wherever, you know, choose your destination. And the reason it doesn't go away is because you come back to the same environment that is causing those characteristics in the first place. So you come back to the same workplace or to the same family dynamics that may not be a healthy situation, or it may be just too much work for you, and you're not seeking support and you're not outsourcing things to other people that can help you, um then the problem remains. The problem exists. So we need to be looking not only at the person, because yes, there are personal characteristics, but so if you are that type A personality, if you are sensitive, if you um are a perfectionist, you are more likely to experience burnout. However, if you're in an environment too, that puts too many demands on you, that where you don't have good relationships with the people that you're working with or um the people in your space in a place that doesn't have the same values as you, where the culture is a mismatch for yours, you're going to be burnt out. So it doesn't matter how many holidays you go on, you come back to that same environment and the workload and the pressures are still there.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

It's not going to resolve anything. The values is something, again, I think the OTs are very good at recognising is really important to us, you know, when looking at us holistically, but also thinking about our values is that that's really important and there is this mismatch. And sometimes I think, you know, when we've got kids that are needing additional support, is that sometimes we're in systems where their values don't align with our values, and as parents, that's really difficult when you come up against a system that you know I don't know what it's like in Australia, but if for us here in the UK is it's it's very rigid the structure. Um the kids are very much expected to fit into boxes, and when they don't, it it all falls apart, and the pressure on parents is is huge. And I often talk with parents about you know some of our burnout is because there are immovable stresses in our life. Because that's the other thing, is when we think about work and burnout, people will go, well, just change job, you know, move to a different job. But actually, when we're talking about something like parental burnout, is you know, I can't change my kids or you know, can't often move away from the system. And we are then trying to navigate our way around with stresses in our life that we that are immovable, and I think OTs again are really well placed for that to support in that moment. What else can you do? Is that something that kind of you've come up against as well with it?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

It's looking at what you can control and what you can't control.

Control What You Can Influence

SPEAKER_01 15:53

So, what you've identified there is the systems we cannot control them. That's often without, you know, outside of our control. What we can do is we can do two things things that we can do personally, and then also things that we can try and influence. So for us personally, we might recognize if we are um if we have a child who has neurodivergent needs, we can look at, you know, because again, too, the only person we can change is ourselves. We cannot change someone else to create change. We can only change us. So how do we show up differently? What are different environments that we can create for our child so that there are less noises, so that we're not taking them to the shopping center at peak shopping time and there's not sounds and people brushing up against them and all these different sensory overloads? What are some supports that we can put in place as well? Some accommodations. Do we have the headphones? Do we have the fidget tools? Do we have anything that accommodates their sensory or personal needs? What are the things that we can put in place? And so they're things that we can take control over and feel empowered about because there are things that we can do. If we feel like there's too much workload and we're almost the martyr, like we're just doing everything. We get home, we're we're the cook, we're the admin assistant, we are the the parent and the whatever what you know, the the million and one roles that we have as a caregiver. We might go, well, what can I outsource? What don't I have to do? Well, hey, grandma lives down the road. I might get her, ask her to pick up the kids on a Monday and a Friday and take them to soccer because that's just one less thing that's on my list, and it gives me the capacity to cook dinner that night, and I can we can have leftovers the next night. You know, what what can we do to support our capacity so that we're burning in and we're not burning out?

The Burn In Model Explained

unknown 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

And I think what that leads me on really perfectly, almost seamlessly, Rihanna, to talk about the the model that you've created because I'm really excited to see this model now. Before we kind of go into that, because some parents will be listening and thinking, well, what is a model? I don't really understand what that is. Could you talk us through what a model actually is? Because we use them in occupational therapy. I'm sure other practitioners and you know healthcare professionals use them as well. But what would you describe a model as?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Well, for parents and for our model in particular, I basically describe it as a tool. So our model is something that can be used with parents to support them to understand and bring awareness to where their life currently is right now and support them to move from that place to where they want to be. So the burn-in model is a model that I've co-created with Michelle Lukin. And basically, burn-in is the opposite of burnout. So if we imagine our life like a fire, and this is to put it really simply, and it and it's so simple, it's so intuitive, like we get it. We know that burnout, like we have this idea and understanding of a flame, and when it's burnt out, you know, we describe we're we're burnt out. At the opposite end is this big, bright, beautiful flame. And I I think of it as my inner flame, it's this, it's inside me. And when it's burning big and bright, I'm burning in. And if we understand burnout as a misalignment between who we are, like our values and our sense of identity and who we want to be, um, misaligned with the things that we're doing in our life and the places that we belong to, that's what burnout looks like. Burn-in is alignment, it's the alignment between who we are, the meaningful activities that we do and the places and spaces that we belong to. And so this flame of alignment within us, it lives within an ecosystem. And we can go into the different parts of the ecosystem, but obviously we need fuel for our fire to burn bright. So we need those meaningful, our our fire, our sorry, our sticks and our logs are the meaningful occupations, the meaningful activities that we can put on the fire to help it burn big and bright. And when we don't have those meaningful activities that we're doing to sustain us, our flame does start to flicker and we can burn out. If if we're not in a supportive environment, if we're in a toxic environment where we're always put down, where we're not supported, where we don't have any cheerleaders in our life, where it's just um it's hard and we don't feel like we have that great support. And this is where you said earlier, we have this storm in our life. Like that's our environment. It's the storm, and it puts out our fire, it puts out our inner flame, you know, and and so often parents just have, you know, this little flicker. It's this little flicker, it's it's keeping them above board. But as soon as we get the the thunderstorm in our life and shit really hits the van, yeah, yeah. Like we we can really be at w m moving towards that burnout phase and We need to recognize what we can do to prevent it. Um, and in the model, you know, and this is something that people can draw as well. Um, smoke symbolizes burning out, you know, it's our SOS to the world.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

When there's smoke, it's it's our signal of help. I I need some help right now. So when we get really good at identifying for ourselves what burning out looks like, we can try and prevent the burnout. And this is especially important for therapists working with individuals because we can catch it before we actually head to burnout. So, you know, for me, it's like being irritable. I'm snappy, I'm moody, I probably cry more. Um, and we all have these own individual characteristics that we start to see. And if we can see the pattern, like, oh my gosh, like I'm doing this so much more than I normally would, then we can seek help. We can start outsourcing things, we can change our environment if that's possible. We can realign with our values and start looking at ways that we can again refuel and fuel our inner fire.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

And what I love about this is it's it's so visual. I've often found when I've worked with people, the visual side of things really helps people. Um is that kind of why you went for it being so visual?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah,

Boundaries And The Fire Ecosystem

SPEAKER_01 23:27

well, I so Michelle came up with the idea of the flame, which I was just like, oh my gosh, how has no one ever done this before? This is legendary. And so we really rolled with it and started to label different parts of this ecosystem. And it really helps people to look at their life in a non-judgmental way. What I found in practice is that it can be really hard to have a one-on-one conversation with someone across the table and look into their eyes and talk about how their life is and what boundaries they need to put in place, et cetera, et cetera. But if we do it through a model where we can draw, the person can draw their flame. They can draw if it's a big bright flame or if it's burning out and dwindling or if it's a lump of coal at the moment. And we can draw rocks. You know, rocks symbolize boundaries. And we can draw rocks around the fireplace. Because they, you know, the rocks, the boundaries protect our inner flame. And we can actually start to map it out. And it feels like you the person feels a bit removed. They don't feel like they're being judged. They're they're drawing, they're drawing it out through these symbols. And what I love about this model is that it integrates this. You can do it through illustration, you can do it through painting, you can do it just through, you can do it through conversation if you'd like. But it also um brings in sort of the, I suppose more the western side of like metrics and you know, like we like to analyze things, visual analog scale, you know, from one to five. So we've got a flame. If you're if your flames burning out, or if you're coal, it's a one. And if you're in the middle, it's a two, three, four. And then we've got five is where your flame is that big and bright. You're feeling that sense of alignment in your life, or living aligned with your values. You are feel this sense of connection and belonging to the communities that you're a part of and the family and the relationships in your life. And you're also doing the meaningful things that you love to do. So you're feeling engaged, you're passionate, or fired up, right? Like we already use these terms. We do. Like we say, if I'm to look at alignment and misalignment, we say alignment. I'm fired up, I'm lit up, I'm burning, burning bright, uh, there's a fire in my belly. Like we use these terms already. And then for misalignment, we'll say things like, I'm burning the candle at both ends, I'm burnt out, oh, she's lost her spark. You know, we already use these terms and we've literally put a a new reframe around it so people can use it practically in their life, in therapy, they can journal about it and and think about it without it feeling so heavy. And it really just brings a sense of awareness to where am I right now? How many logs do I have on the fire that are helping my flame burn bright?

unknown 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

How many damp logs do I have on the fire that are actually sucking the oxygen out of the fire? You know, the the ox the activities that we don't enjoy doing that we feel we have to do. Like how do we how do we remove that damp wet log?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Um what what rocks have I put around my fire to protect myself? Like digital boundaries. You know? Maybe, maybe I need to put my phone on flight mode when I'm playing with my kids so I'm fully present. Maybe that's a boundary I need. Maybe it's switching my work phone off when I get home, not answering emails after four o'clock in the afternoon. What are the emotional boundaries? Maybe I'm spending so much time with Susie down the road with all her challenges in life that I'm forgetting about my needs and my children's needs. Like, what are some big rocks we can place around our inner fire so that we protect our space, our time, our energy, and our life, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

And what I love about that is it's kind of almost as well about that sense of that the that flame will flicker. And I think sometimes when we're working with people, the the m miss kind of the misunderstanding is that I'm never gonna become burnt out again. I'm gonna be happy all the time and everything's gonna be amazing. And we know that's not what life is about. But what I love about the flame is is that there are these protective factors around it. And yes, there may be environmental things, or like we talked about the storm, we never know what's gonna happen, that might dampen it down, that might make it a bit smaller. But actually, when we talk about that, actually there are ways that we can then it will come back, it's not gone forever. You know, we can build it back up again, and I think that's another really important part of burnout is is the it it it will change. There it there will be a recovery.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah, and life is dynamic, and just like life is dynamic, so is your inner flame, and we ride through the seasons and we have some really hard, tough moments in life, and sometimes we feel helpless. We feel like we are not gonna make it through, like it's just gonna go on forever and ever, and it's just groundhog day. And what's beautiful about the model is with the coal, so we we look at coal as burnout, like that's when you're burnt out, but there is a symbol in the model, and that is a spark, you know, and spark means life, and so even with the coal, we still have the spark present because it means there is still hope, there is still possibility, and there is still potential for that coal. That coal can be a beautiful, renewable energy source again, it can it can fuel the fire once more. So there is there is always hope. And it's it's looking at what you can do from your perspective, like what's within your control. Are there personality factors that are contributing to this? Are you a parent that feels like you need the washing done, the dishes cleaned, the washing fold, everything put away, the bedrooms need to be immaculate. Maybe you just need to take a check-in and say, Well, maybe, you know, that would be my ideal, but it's not realistic in this season of life. I do not have the capacity. Let me take a check-in and see what I can change. See what again, see what I can outsource, see where I can get some help. And then if it's not possible, well, maybe I need to just peel it back a bit, need to pair it back so I can do what I can do without burning out.

unknown 30:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

And then again, it's looking at the environment. What things within the environment can I change?

SPEAKER_00 30:37

And there's another lovely bit as part of the model that you talk about, and I know there are many different ones, but there's a bit that you talk about, which is embers in there, which I just love. Can you explain a bit about that? Because there

Embers And Gifts To Others

SPEAKER_00 30:51

are different ones as well in there, but the one that really sits with me is the embers bit, and I think we often forget that when we are burning out or burnt out, is that actually there are times when our flame is really strong, is is is what that goes on to do in the world. And I'm not gonna ruin it and take your thunder. Rihanna, I'm gonna let you describe that bit.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

No, that's beautiful. Take it away, Liz. Um so one of the elements that we have in this the burn-in model is embers. And we imagine embers to be these beautiful little flickers, the embers that fly off the fire. And when the fire's burning big and bright, you see the little embers that will drift off into the wind.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

I have such a visual picture with this when you describe this. I can see it. Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Go on, sorry. And the and the night is dark and the moon is black. And and so these embers represent your gifts to the world. So when you are living in alignment and you are burning in and your fire is sustainable, and it may be big and bright, but it's at least sustainable. You you can share your gifts to the world. And and this could be your gifts may be kindness, it may be courage, it may be offering your neighbor a bowl of soup because you know they've had a fall and they can't get out of bed to make it themselves. It might be a knitted jumper for a grandchild, it might be advocating for your child in a meeting that you know is really hard. And this is your gift, you know, this is your gift to your child, to the world, because you're standing in alignment with your values, with what's true to you, your true north. And this is where you burn in. It it doesn't always mean it's easy. It's it's sometimes what's takes courage and being brave. And so when these beautiful embers fly off, they can drift in the wind, and these gifts can land in someone else's heart. They can land with someone else who may need to hear that bit of bravery that you've put out there on social media, or may need to receive that little smile that you gave them down the street, and they just walk away and they feel a million bucks and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna pay it forward. And then so the cycle continues. Their flame gets a little bit brighter, they're burning in a little bit more, and we can we can share our embers with others.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Yeah. And I think you sometimes as parents and probably other people as well, but you know, when you're parents, we often, you know, when life gets hard and we're giving ourselves a hard time of, you know, I'm not the perfect parent, I'm not good enough, I should be doing this, that, and the other. But actually, I love that concept of coming back to that, that even though maybe your fire isn't bite burning that bright at that moment, there will still be little embers coming off. They're not massive things that I have to do, but actually there's little things, and I love the concept again of that it might end up somewhere that you don't even know. Like you say, that little smile. And I created a t-shirt a little while ago, and it was based off the back of I had been in a GP practice waiting to see the GP, and there was a mum in there with her young son, and he was very, very distressed and obviously finding it really hard. And she was just I I felt for her, and you know, it you know, she was looking round and kind of apologizing to people and looked very, very embarrassed by it, and he was just distressed, he was having a really hard time. But you know, it's like going to the doctor's thousand, it's complete silence, and you're just like, Oh no. And I don't know what made me do it, Ryan, but I just nodded at her. Probably other people would have thought I was completely crazy, and her face lit up, and she smiled back, and all I wanted to do in that moment was just go, I get you, I see you. And it's those little moments, it doesn't have to be huge, you know, I'm gonna take the kids here or do this to somebody. It literally could be a smile and a bit of an acknowledgement, it's just one of their dembers. And sometimes that actually helps your fire, you know, when we see those go off and and do something.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yeah. I got goosebumps, Liz, and I've had very similar situations where, you know, I'm down the street and you see a child who's having a meltdown, and it could be sensory overload or too much, and and they're cracking it, and you'll see some people walk past. And I think because it's happened to me before as well. No, I remember a man walking past and saying to me, he actually said something to my daughter, like, Oh, having a little tanty, are you? You know, not really, just didn't have the awareness, right? And then again, like that just was something that always sat with me. Cause I was like, oh, that's I I felt my daughter's shame when he said that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

And then I remember it happening um again, but I was witnessing it this time in another family. And you walk past and you just give them a little that exactly what you said, that little nod and that little smile to say, I see you.

unknown 36:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

You know, and they they feel it. There there doesn't have to be any words spoken, and they feel it. Just that recognition. Yeah. And so that it's that little ember.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

It's a bit like borrowing from somebody else, isn't it? Their flame is maybe a bit brighter than yours, and you're you're borrowing a bit from their embers. And I think that's such a nice way of maybe just looking at the whole world. We could all do with doing that at the moment, I think, is what's going on. Um with regards to kind of elements, Ryan, is there any kind of other ones that you kind of are are really important and and that kind of stand out for you?

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Um,

Tiny Twigs Versus Big Logs

SPEAKER_01 36:45

I mean, if we look at there's there's eight elements all together, but I think one of one of the most important elements as an occupational therapist is is the sticks and the logs. And so I do want to touch on that because what happens when we're burnt out? So the sticks and the logs represent our personal factors like our personality. And we we have we can change that to an extent. And then our activities that we're doing in our day-to-day life. So we put them on the on the fire and they can fuel the flame. But there are supportive and there are unsupportive personal factors and activities that we do in our life, right? So what happens when someone is burning out or burnt out, they tend to throw the little sticks on the fire, the little twigs, right? They're the quick bursts of energy. It's gonna give you a quick dopamine hit, but it's not sustainable. So it might be your coffee in the morning, you get that quick hit, or it might be a quick scroll on social media, you get that dopamine hit. But when we're burning out and when we're burnt out, what we really need is the big logs. We need the big logs that are gonna be sustainable fuel for alignment, for burn-in. So this could be regular exercise. It could be a really like good sleep, it could be a healthy food. Like if we look at all the pillars of well-being, maybe for someone it could be getting back into guitar and reconnecting with that meaningful occupation of playing guitar. Like, what is it for you that's gonna help your flame burn big and bright? So we need to add those big logs back onto the fire to sustain this sense of alignment in our life so we don't burn out. And so often, as parents and caregivers, the big logs are the are the first things to go, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Oh, I've just you know, I was just about to go for you. Those are the ones that have gone out the window, usually, like you say, first thing to go are the ones that are around our kind of joy and what we get joy from.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah. And and it's so easy to reach for the quick fixes and the quick dopamine hits, but it doesn't provide that sustainable alignment long term. We need the big logs fueling the fire. And then we also have the we have logs that can be damp, that can be sucking oxygen out of the fire. And they might be engaging in activities that just aren't meaningful to us. Like we we don't find meaning in them. They're not aligned with our values, we don't enjoy them. Um, and so just bringing awareness to what they are for us, so they're not sucking the, you know, sucking that oxygen out of the the fire and draining us. Um, so I think that's one of the most important things that we can look at, especially when we're looking at what's within our control.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Um what's been so nice is to think about the burning model, because I think it again, it's given a kind of structure and a and a and a it's brought everything together for me, and I think has definitely will impact and has impacted the work that I'm now doing as well at my end. And I think

Creativity Courage And Changing Systems

SPEAKER_00 39:59

just kind of bringing it full circle is is a the first time I came to find out and and know a bit more about you, Rihanna, was I was at a point in my career when I thought I'm done. Probably burnt out from being an OT actually, and was completely done with OT. I didn't want to be an OT anymore. And just if there are any other OTs out there, and actually I didn't know probably it would be worth some parents watching it as well, actually, is you have the most amazing short film that you made called Finding, it's finding me in OT, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

It's a video that I go back to over and over again. When I have wobbles, that's the one that I go back to, and it's probably one of the only things that I've watched in my whole career that has hit me in the heart as in gone, oh my god, that's what OT is all about for me. I think if I hadn't have watched that video, I wouldn't be an OT. I would have given it up and walked away from it. So I want to say a very special thank you because it made a huge, massive difference to me and my career and the way I think about OT and kind of gave me the permission to go off and do things a bit differently. And I didn't have to stick in this very structured role that I felt was sucking the life out of me, basically, actually. And I feel like my flame is definitely burning brighter because of that film that I watched. So I use it all the time. From my supervisions, I've been like, go and watch this movie, it's gonna change your life. There are so many OTs that I work with that have going through sip similar, you know, they've been in systems that are tough to work in that take away our creativity and and make us not the OTs we used to be, I suppose. It never matched what I wanted OT to be when I came out and worked in in NHS, education, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Yeah. One thing we didn't touch on, Liz, and I love that, first of all, like that warms my heart and fuels my fire so much. That's one big log, you know. Ah, like that's yeah, it it's amazing to hear that. Thank you so much. Um one thing we didn't touch on, so we spoke about what's within our control and what's not within our control, but then there's what we can influence. So you said then occupational therapists who are stuck in systems, who lose their creativity. So something that I think we can have influence over is discussing. Like, we can talk to our supervisor, we can talk to our boss and say, hey, like I've got this great idea. Like get it all prepared before you go in. Be excited and enthusiastic about it. Like, don't hide that part of yourself, be authentic. And you just never know because I think there is so much space for more creativity, more ideas within our profession. And it's only when people speak out, it's only when people feel that sense of courage and bravery. Because, you know, I did a post the other day, and it was about that I don't think we ever feel ready. We just feel brave.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

We we, you know, I I've done podcasts, I created the film, I've hosted lots of different online summits, and one of the biggest things that I had to get over was actually talking to people. I remember my very first podcast, Liz, and oh my god, it was a train wreck. I think I said um every second like word. I I started deleting it, and I think I deleted about half the recording.

unknown 43:39

No.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Because I had that many ums in it. I yeah. I I it was I couldn't even listen back. It was just so cringe worthy. Yet here I am, seven years later, I've recorded over well over 200 episodes of two different politics. Class and I it's just this constant becoming it's stepping into what you value even when it's hard, it's stepping into the work that you want to do, the impact that you want to have, even when your voice shakes, even when you feel like people might judge you or misunderstand you, or you might say something that you're like, oh my gosh, I didn't mean it like that. It's come out the wrong way. I do hear from a lot of therapists who worry about that, saying something and it's not evidence-based, or it's just gonna be perceived wrong. And I've done that many a time, and it's being humble and knowing that we're all human, and we also reserve the right to change our mind. We we don't have to, you know, that's one of the things that I look back on, and I think I've changed my mind so many times over my career, and I don't have to be held to any one idea that I've had, and it's okay to evolve, and and we're here to evolve and transform and grow.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

So um just be I think the creativity is is so important, and I think I talk about that a lot with parents. It's actually, you know, what do you want to do? What would if if we could just if you could do anything, what would it be? And sometimes we can't always be as fantastical as we would like to be, but it's about being creative, and I think we lose that so quickly. You know, I was I was reading a bit of research, I'm rubbish with numbers, I'm dyslexic, so I don't remember them. I'll just own it. Um I was reading a bit of research and they were talking about measuring creativity in young children and how creative they are. And by the time they finished, I think it was the end of primary school, was a huge amount of um their creativity basically just dropped off. It had almost way past half had gone. And I just thought, and then you look at parents when we become adults, and where does our creativity go? And you know, we know from being OTs that actually creativity is so important to our health and well-being, and you know, how do we get to be creative and follow dreams and do amazing things? And we all have dreams, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah, but I think sometimes as parents they get shifted. Sense of play.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah.

Legacy Presence And Play

SPEAKER_01 46:25

You know, one of the elements in the burn-in model is ash. And ash represents end of life and legacy and lineage.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

And the legacy part I look at and think if I was to look back on my life, what is it that I want to leave behind?

SPEAKER_01 46:50

What is the little bits of impact that I want to leave behind that's gonna sit at the base of my fire and that's gonna be part of, you know, my children's fire. And is it that I want to show up as a present mum who had time to play, who had time to laugh, who had the capacity to sit at the edge of my daughter's bed and pat her head as she goes to sleep. Like sometimes I feel as a parent myself, two daughters, that life can just go so fast. It speeds up when you get to the end of the year and you go, Oh my gosh, I can't believe it's Christmas already. Where did that year go? But if we just slow down the days a little bit and go, and and I think one of my sort of things that I remind myself is that this moment shall pass, you know. They're not gonna be this young forever. I'm not gonna be able to do these things forever. One day they're gonna be driving themselves to school and then going to see their boyfriend, and they're gonna have more important and better things to do. But right now, like, how can I savor this time? And even when the meltdown hits, and even when they're not getting to bed and it's still three hours later and they're crying and it's hard. And I'm like, oh my gosh, what is it? I just want to go to bed. I'm so tired, and I've got all this work to do, and then I've got to wake up. How if I'm just present, what I've noticed is that it becomes easier, you know, things become easier when I I give that bit more of me energy into it rather than say, go to bed and do this. And then just playing, like more time to have fun and laugh and because we do forget it. And this, yeah, oh, like it's so good. Like when was the last time you had a belly laugh? Like you just laugh so hard, your stomach hurt. Like, bring back those days. Like, how do we create those moments where and and I'll tell you how it's again like we come back to burn in. It's when we're connected to the people that we love, right? We have this sense of belonging, they get us. They're not a flame drain, right? Yeah, like that. They just get us and we can laugh, and we're just our authentic selves. And then we're doing the things that are meaningful to us. And again, it's in alignment with our authentic self, and we're work, we're being our our true self that's in alignment with our identity, our values, and our sense of purpose. So when those three things line up, our being, our meaningful doing, and our sense of belonging, we burn in, right? And so this is this is what we want. And I want more people to be burning in, not out.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

I 100% agree. I think that I I couldn't have brought that all together better, Rihanna, than you just brought that all perfectly together. I think what I want to say is thank you ever so much for coming on. I was really looking forward to this conversation as to say I haven't talked about burnout on the podcast, which seems crazy, but I'm glad I got to do it with you because actually that's felt like the right time to do it and to talk about it. The model I think is a great model. It's definitely having an impact on my practice, and I hope that I can do it justice and and kind of start to share it as well as much as we can, because I think it's a great model. Is there anything you kind of want to leave listeners with, Rihanna? And any you kind of I mean you summed it up beautifully, so possibly not, but is there anything, kind of one bit of advice or anything that you might give to parents at the moment if they're having a tricky time and they might be thinking, I'm burning out or I am burnt out, is there anything you would say to them right now?

SPEAKER_01 50:45

First

A Simple Burn In Check In

SPEAKER_01 50:46

of all, you know, I I have have a friend who is burning out or has a is having a really hard time at the moment. And what I realized was asking her by text message, how are you? was really hard for her to answer. She's it was too c it was too much cognitive overload to even answer that question. And so I asked, you know, on a scale of one to five, how's your inner flame today? And so I think I'd ask this of the parents, like check in with yourself on on a scale of one to five, one being you're feeling burnt out, and five being you feel alive, energized, and aligned in life and you're burning in. Bring that awareness, like, where are you right now? And just notice it. Like that's that's the biggest thing is this noticing and awareness. And is this what we're like a lot of the time? Like, where are we at and where are we sitting? And then it asked, what's one tiny stick? What's one tiny stick you can throw on your fire today that can help your flame burn a bit brighter? What is it that you need right now? What's one little meaningful activity that you can do that's just gonna help your flame burn a bit brighter? Or what's one rock that you can put around your flame that's gonna protect you today? What's a boundary you need to put in place?

unknown 52:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

I love that. Rihanna, thank you ever so much. I really appreciate it. I know it's quite late at night for you, probably in Australia at the moment, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 52:25

Yeah, 9.30, but we're all going.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

We need to give you your time back as well this evening. So I just leave me to say thank you ever so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. And uh if people want to find Rihanna, what we'll do is we'll make sure all Rihannan's contact details, anywhere you want to find her, I know she's a loss a lot across lots of the uh socials. I'll also link in the video and we'll link in because you've got a specific website now, haven't you, for your burning model? Yes. Yes, so I'll link that in as well and make sure everything's there so people can reach out to you if they've got any questions or anything like that. But thank you ever so much for joining me, Rihanna.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Amazing, thanks Liz. Been a pleasure.