The Best Friend Episode: Real talk between best friends

Join me and my best friend Marissa Gingeleskie as we talk about our lifelong friendship, the best childhood, body image, pregnancy, motherhood, and dealing with long COVID and injuries. This heartfelt conversation offers insights into body acceptance, family influence, and resilience. 

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Podcast editor:
Bob Montalban
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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Wise Body Podcast, where we talk about eating disorder recovery and all things body. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Hughes. I bring 20 years of experience as an eating disorder therapist, and I've worked with hundreds of clients to feel more empowered and connected to their body by tapping into the wisdom it holds. I'm so excited to keep learning with you as we navigate the windy path that is recovery. So let's get started. Hi, and welcome to the best friend episode. I'm so excited to have my best friend Marissa on the wise body today.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

We don't remember meeting because we met when we were three and have been through it all ever since. She seriously is everything to me, and I couldn't imagine life any other way. Let me tell you a little bit about my best friend. Marissa and I grew up five houses apart in an awesome neighborhood full of kids and fun families. We were inseparable. We went to elementary, middle, and high school together. It was pure anguish living apart for three years when she and her family moved to Hong Kong for her dad's career. Luckily, she made it back to begin middle school together. Skipping ahead, we moved away again, attending different colleges. She graduated from Williams College with a degree in psychology and a background in marketing. She's had several prestigious positions at Estee Lauder and Yale and now manages her family's real estate business. Her greatest accomplishment, though, is being the proud mom to her three teenage boys, who are all successful and academically and athletically driven, just like their mom. Please welcome my best friend Marissa Jingaleski to The Wise Body. Hi, and welcome to another episode of The Wise Body. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah Hughes. Today I am so excited to have my best friend Marissa Jingaleski on the show with me. It has been months in the making because I've asked her, I think even before I started recording the podcast, if she would be on it. Because this is what I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be fun conversations with the friends and family and colleagues. And so here we are. Marissa, thank you so much, my my bestie, for for being on today. And I'm excited for what we're gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Oh, I'm so excited too. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah. So I mean I think it's important to give a little background because um not everybody knows that we have known each other since we were three. And you're my longest friend. And we're not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry. I'm not gonna cry. Don't mind um you're you're my longest, bestest friend. And I I think that's like really hard to come by, like to have a friendship as long as we have. And we've been through a lot together, and it's like, you know, it's the best thing ever. And you are one of the most important people in my life. And so I I thank you for being my best friend and through it all. So we'll talk about I think that's a place to start, right? Yeah. About our childhoods, absolutely, and how we don't remember meeting. So and our best friends too. So I was just gonna say, you had to add that part in. Yeah. And so we need to ask them like what that first meeting was like, because we don't remember it. And memories you remember around age three, yeah. Memory you start being able to remember and have memories. And so that was right at the time when when we met. And so it's funny that we don't remember meeting, but I remember being like four and five with you and like preschool and like play dates and playthroughs.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, we did everything together. Inseparable. Yeah, we were we were just always at each other's houses. We lived right down the road and we would be outside all the time. And yeah, it was just it was awesome. It was such a great childhood, and um, yeah, I'm so grateful to have you as my friend too, Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Thank you, man. Um oh, so that's maybe we should explain your your nickname because it's gonna just come out. I'll leave that to you. Um, so right, your your maiden name, it comes from that. Yeah. So, and does does your brother go by crannyfish?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Did he? He he did in high school. The soccer team used to call him that. So I think that's where Minnow came from, the younger one.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah. Right. So it's it's stuck, and I mean, and it's just gonna flow out of me probably this this whole time. It's I I can't help it. So I love it. Good. So yeah, we we had like an awesome childhood, and we had just like an amazing group of neighbors and neighborhood kids, and you know, we would all be outside all the time riding bikes, playing flashlight tag, like it find kick the can at your house. Can kick ball, like just I mean, just the best. And it's pretty amazing that we, for the most part, like all got along. I mean, I think you know, the older kids may have kicked on the younger kids a little bit, but let's just say it was the boys that did that. There were some wedgies and some like some flagball incidences, some hanging of underwear on the flagball. A little bit of like that kind of like pretty innocent, you know, childhood torture. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, really, really lucky to have had that. And yeah, we we lived so our street, it was always like hard to describe to other people. We had the island, right? Like this big patch of grass, like then it was a hill, and it divided like an upper level level and a lower level. And yeah, the terrace, the terrace, and you were on the upper level, I was on the lower level, and I guess we were like five, six houses apart. And that was so great because when we got to a certain age, I don't know, by eight, we were walking to each other's houses. Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Easily we would watch each other though, like one would stand out at the driveway and we'd wave and we'd say goodbye, and we would always be devastated if we weren't allowed to have a sleepover.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

So, you know, yeah, we didn't want the day to end, like we did not ever want to leave each other. And like I know before we got on here, we were talking about how we would like perform literally for our parents to like beg to let us have a sleepover. So we would like entertain them and like concerts and dances and like fully choreographed, and they would be like, I I probably they were like, We don't care, we just make you go through it. Yeah, like dance a little bit. That's fun. Um, but yeah, I mean, I th I don't know, there may have been like a handful of times where we got to sleep over during the week, but that was rare. Maybe when there's like a snow day coming or something, yes. Yes, but yeah, I mean, we we lived at each other's houses and we were so comfortable and had a safe neighborhood and super lucky and yes, super lucky, yeah. And and I've been thinking about it like more and more, just as I've like had my brother and sister on here and we've talked about like growing up. And so it only makes sense that we talk about it a little bit too. And one of the first things I thought about, aside from like just how amazing it was and living outside and playing neighborhood games and things like that, was like if if we noticed our bodies, like when was like the first like memory we had about like our body? And I hadn't really thought about that. And it was funny because we when we were like emailing back and forth about it, like this memory popped up for me, but which included your brother, and and we'll talk about it, but like for you, what do you remember? Like, what was your first memory of like being in your body and like, oh, and my head's connected to my body and it does things.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Sure, yeah. I think that I think that it took me a while to really see my own body, but I remember at a young age, I was doing all sports basically that involve leotards, ballet, and gymnastics. And I just remember seeing, you know, older kids and kids who had gone through puberty and I hadn't, you know, wasn't anywhere near there and just sort of noticing other people's bodies. I think long before I noticed my own. I think probably I probably noticed my own body more when changes started happening in puberty, you know, in middle school is probably the time that I really noticed myself. But I think before that I was already, you know, sort of bridging that gap and seeing the differences in other people and where I stood with that, which was far behind.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Well, I mean, that's a good point. So, like you were exposed to like different age groups, yes, and people sort of going through their own development, even if it was a little bit ahead of you. So, like older kids, but even kids the same age that were like maybe growing, um, you know, a little ahead of you. Um yeah. And so that that's interesting. You're like, wait, their bodies are changing and yeah, and mine's not. And did that weird? Like, did you did you feel weird or uncomfortable about that?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

No, I think it was more like an just an innocent observation, really. I if there was a certain time when it made me feel weird, I don't remember one. I think that, you know, it becomes so normal to sort of wonder when you're going through puberty. I mean, I know it's like a has been a topic in our house with I have three boys, and just with them growing, you know, we always say, you know, oh, you're going through puberty, look at how much taller you got, or you know, whatever it might be, their voice drops or or whatever. But I just think it's, you know, one of those things that eventually I sort of knew that was going to happen to me. I just didn't know when. And so then I was a little bit more aware as I was going through, you know, the end of middle school and the beginning of high school and watching my body change.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yeah, I remember like girls like getting their period, and I was just like, Oh, I don't know what that's like. I don't have any people. And like, and then when it happened to me, I'm like, oh, now what do I do? Right. Yes, yes. You know, knew it was happening. And we we also, I think it deserves mention that like we went to a Catholic school, elementary school. And do you remember like the birds and the bees conversation where like we were all the girls went in one room with Sister Anne and the boys went in one room with Father Hilliard, I think. And like we were totally separate. It's like girls are gonna talk about the girl stuff, boys are gonna talk about the boy things, and like it wasn't like there's no crossover. We don't need to know about what happens to be boys.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Well, you know what, Sarah? I don't think I was living in the United States at that time. I think I was living in Hong Kong, but I remember distinctly you telling me about it. And it could have been in one of your letters that you wrote me as we corresponded while I was away for two years, but I can totally picture that. Yeah, and I can imagine how incredibly awkward it was.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Very awkward. And like there was like some textbook where we were reading about like body changes and like what a period is. And I was like, what? Like it all just felt like in a book, it just like feels so yeah, you feel so removed from it. Still, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so we'll talk about let's talk about Hong Kong because that was like uh devastating for me when you left. Um, me too. Oh my god, I remember that day vividly. I do too. So and so I remember like having a body, and I didn't think about this. Like, what was my first memory of my body? And I remember your brother noticing like my ankles and was like, Oh, your ankles like stairs, it's so random. I know. But we were running up the stairs and kind of looked back and looked at my ankles and was like, Oh, your ankles look different. And I was like, Okay, and like we went running up. But you know, now that I think about it, like that is something that like changes and sure is noticeable, I guess, right? Like when you're in like this little body and like your joints are little, and then and then they're not, and like your knees get bigger and your ankles get bigger and your wrists get bigger, and like I was growing. And so, like it was kind of a moment where he's like, That's weird, you're not little anymore, was maybe I don't know if he was conscious about like that was the message, and I didn't receive it that way. I was like, whatever, bye, like yeah, you know, but it's it's interesting, right? Like, there's that idea of like noticing other people's bodies changing and maybe being more cognizant of that than aware of your own. I I don't know. Sure, yeah, but I was like, Oh yeah, I guess they're bigger, and like you know, and that and that was it, but not like anything else until um God, it feels like middle school high school when I was swimming, and I think maybe that was something that we both experienced, like when we were in sports, it's when we recognize our bodies more and how we were performing and strengths, and so with swimming, so I was essentially in like right, I was in a bathing suit, like similar to Leotard, right? Like you're anything, but I think the difference, huge difference, is that uh you know, uh gymnastics, uh ballet, dance, those are considered like lean sports. And there's this focus on uh the aesthetic of your body. Yes, and and in swimming, it it wasn't that for me. It wasn't like your body had to necessarily look a certain way. I mean, swimming changed my body. Like I definitely had broad shoulders, you know. I just remember like my lats, you know, just like you know, be feeling like strong upper body strong, yeah. And that changing my body. And I noticed that more in college. Like, oh, my shoulders are broader. And like I moved in with like two hockey bags of clothes going up four flights of stairs and in loafers in a skirt. And boys were like, Do you need help? I'm like, no, you know, I mean, I like moments like that, I just remember like feeling like strong, but not necessarily like judging my my my body so much, and and I'm really blessed for that. And I really attribute a lot of that to my my mom and my coaches for for not like talking about my body or their bodies or really nutrition. And I feel like those were very strong like protective factors for me because before we hopped on, I know we were talking about how like there were a lot of like risk factors for me to developing an eating disorder. And I guess I just had just enough to protect me from it. And and I think about that a lot, and I'm super grateful.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

And I feel like I connect with my clients with eating disorders in other ways, and I know we'll we'll we're gonna talk about those things too, but other things that like you want to talk about in terms of like gymnastics or being on the track team or like you know, I think what you said was right about the gymnastics and the ballet being sort of like lean, lean, encouraged sports. Um, I really only did them through uh eighth grade. And so I wasn't really changing too much, but it definitely was, you know, pointed out to, you know, in your body position to like, you know, suck in and looks felt and be graceful. And those kinds of words don't come with, you know, a little extra weight or anything like that. But, you know, even just your boobs, you know, like if you're big chested, that can, you know, make you less graceful because you can't, you know, move as quickly or you're bouncing around or whatever it might be. So those things weren't really factors for me, thankfully. But um, yeah, I think when I when I stopped doing those sports and I started in eighth grade running track, I was running with kid, you know, boys and girls that were, you know, 18 years old too. You know, they were all all age categories. So with the high schoolers, and there was definitely a big difference. And back then, you know, we were wearing in track spandex leggings, which at the time was not something that people wore. So I do remember like the first time I put on short spandex feeling kind of funny about it, but I only really noticed that some people were bigger than me. I I, you know, was pretty small at that time. I just sort of noticed that kids were bigger and stronger than me for sure, and that I could do better if I could get a little stronger. But yeah, my coaches never talked about, you know, we went to the same school and actually one of the coaches crosses over with track and field and swimming. And we definitely did not have any negative conversations in terms of body image or bodies. We were encouraged to obviously be in shape and to be strong. And those were really the messages that came across. So yeah, I don't have too much to add, but I think those experiences definitely opened my eyes to different body types and different shapes and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, I'm glad that there was like a focus on like strength and how that can help you perform better. And there wasn't a focus on weight because, as you know, there becomes an inverse relationship when you lose weight, it impacts your performance negatively. And you know, uh with like my dissertation research, I uh uh talked with a lot of college athletes and they were exposed to a lot of coaching messages about nutrition and changing their bodies. And that gets tricky, right? Because most coaches don't have a degree in nutrition. Yes, I mean, great if you do, but it's like that doesn't maybe feel appropriate. I'm I'm all for, you know, like a team nutritionist, but I think when when coaches give messages about bodies and nutrition that that's maybe out of their realm or scope of like of practice.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Sure. And, you know, we probably had a heightened awareness of other people's bodies in track and swimming because those were mixed gender sports. So we were at that stage, you know, at that time of of noticing the other gender being heterosexual females and that couldn't also put a huge pressure on somebody being in their bathing suit or wearing their spandex or whatever it is. So yeah, I think that's just another sort of element that we were very lucky to have such great coaches that, you know, instilled the right message to us that did not involve negative body image.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yeah. And I think it's important to point out that like we have thin privilege. And like I didn't worry so much about my weight. When my body's changed over the years, like I think I've thought about it, but it's never inhibited me in doing what I want to do. And like, whether it be sports or or anything else, really. And so I think like that's you know, just a real like privilege and blessing that I wasn't distracted by. And even like on the swim team and like, you know, a mixed gender sport. I seriously, I'm like baffled by like how I just when I put on my bathing suit, I I don't know if I've said this on the podcast before, but I've said it to clients and other people. But like when I put on my bathing suit, I was going to work. And it was sort of like it was go time. And it was nice that I didn't have to think about like, oh, how does my body look in this bathing suit? It was, I and you should have you probably remember, like I used to wear like three bathing suits and like the the two top were like falling apart and ripped and chlorine and just to produce some drag. And like I just, I just didn't think about it. And I was so like laser focused on like getting better and like beating my time and and just like being being competitive. And I'm lucky I wasn't too distracted. I think I got distracted when I peaked and I wasn't didn't feel like I was really performing well after freshman year, but I I stuck with it because you know, a Big part of sports for me was like the the the you know the the friendships and like I loved my career and like it provided you know a safe place and structure and God if I didn't have swimming like in college I know I would have been homesick like some of our friends have so yeah anyway um trying to think so maybe we like shift shift gears a little bit and to our old bodies wait can we just pause and talk a little bit about this was kind of like a little tea for me like traumatic event when you moved to Hong Kong. Like, oh sure, I think I need to process this with you. You know, I mean this is like 40 years later. Yeah, so crazy. Oh my gosh, yeah, you just said that. I did. I'm sorry. I exposed her age. That's fine. I feel lucky to be aging. And uh yeah, so I think we were eight. Eight?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Um, nine, nine when you left, maybe eight when you found out you were gonna probably that probably was it. It was shocking, right? It was shocking for me.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Do you want to tell the story? Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

I remember finding out absolutely, it was a very dramatic situation in my house. I remember my mom and dad asked my brother and I to come sit in the living room, which we only went in on like holidays. So it was a very weird thing. And they had a globe, and they said, you know, we have some news to tell you. This is, you know, where we are now, if you look on the map, but we are going to be moving. We're not sure for how long, probably between three and five years. And this is where we're moving. And then they moved the globe all the way around to the other side, and we're like, we're gonna live in Hong Kong. At which point my brother ran, grabbed the globe, threw it across the room, and ran away and locked his door. And that was how we found out that we were moving. And yeah, it was a lot to process. I know I was sad, but I was so shocked that my brother threw the globe at that moment. Yeah. But yeah, clearly I was devastated. I was sad, and my life was great, and wasn't really looking for that kind of a huge change moving somewhere where they spoke Chinese and ate different food and culture was totally different. And the thing is, aside from the biggest thing missing, thank goodness we had all these great correspondences with we would make tapes, video, not videotapes. We probably did do that too, but audio tapes, audio tapes. We would sing songs. Like my favorite song that you sang was the song that tells the 50 United, 50 nifty United States.

SPEAKER_04 24:57

Oh, I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

That's how I learned that song was because you sent that to me in an audio tape. And I'll never forget when you sent for Christmas one year, you and your mom sent this amazing care package that had snow that we could spray on the window because, of course, it was like 90 degrees and more humid than you've ever been in in your life. And we could spray the windows with the fake snow and these pajamas that had snowmen all over them, and that book, The Snowman, and the little snowman stuffed animal. I mean, yeah, it was quite a time. But the good news was is that we couldn't have a great experience there, but we don't need to get into that today. I was ready to come home and we came home and we went right into sixth grade together at the same school. And so it really worked out. I mean, it really did. So I don't know, it was traumatic, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Oh, I know very traumatic for me. Like my world shattered in a minute, like in an instant. And I don't remember like the time when we found out you were moving, and then when you actually left.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

I don't remember it, it wasn't super long because I left right at the beginning of April. Because I remember I'd had my birthday party and we did, it was like the year of the rabbit or something. And so we did like a birthday party that had that, and then I just remember pulling out of the driveway and you being there and crying and crying. We had to stay at a hotel in Hartford for some reason that night we did, and then we left from there. We went to the airport the next morning, really early from there, leaving my best friend. It was difficult, and those were big years of change too. And I certainly felt like I was somewhere where I couldn't really relate how it was to everybody when I came back. But it was such a topic of conversation, everybody always wanted to ask about it. But I went to an international school there, and that's where I really got into gymnastics and ballet. So that was kind of my beginning with that and the leotards.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah. Well, I remember you you started gymnastics here though, like before you left a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

I don't know that I did. Making it up. I think I did ballet. I don't know. I'd have to ask my mom that one or your mom. They would probably both know.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Well, I just remember like there's a gymnastics gym here in our little town.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

And I remember jumping into like the foam kit, but I thought for some reason that like that might have been afterwards because that when I came back, I did it in a gym for two years.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Well, okay. Yeah. It's all it's all kind of blurry. Now I don't really remember either. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that was traumatic. And like it was there, like April third grade when you left.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, that was.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

So you were, yeah. I was nine because I just turned nine.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Because my birthday is the end of March.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah. Okay. And then, yeah, so fourth, fifth, you were in Hong Kong. And yeah, we we this is no internet, no like now. We weren't like no phones, right? So, like it was mail mail. Old school, old school, and yet we made each other tapes. And I need to find those tapes and see if they still work. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

We should get them transferred into something like a CD if we can do that. You're right. Digital is what we need. That's how old I am.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Oh my gosh, no, but to sustain a friendship through long distance, and it did feel like forever. But I think what I held on to was like three to five years. Like that's like owned into my brain. Like when you first told me it was sort of like three to five years. I'm like, well, it better not be five. Like, yeah, yeah. Starting middle school without you, and like, thank God, like we had our first middle school dance together.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Like, I oh yeah, we did stairway to heaven.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

It's the longest song ever. Oh my god, I know. And like the like dancing like this. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. We were a team, wouldn't want to do it with anybody else. So no, here we are. It's we live through it. Um, I know, I know, yeah. So, and yeah, we were fortunate to have middle school, high school together. Our sports overlapped with soccer.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Yeah, soccer only, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Every fall, that was weird. Like, because I I just I like doing absolutely everything with you, but what we were just you know, we we we our interests in sports were different. Like, there's that have run track, like I couldn't have swam.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I still can't hardly swim back and forth one lap.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Well, I don't know if I could do it right now either, but middle school, high school, we were lucky to have that together. And then I'm trying to like going to college, like that was another like kind of separation, but it didn't feel as traumatic because everybody was doing it, and like and we always came home, you know, to our houses and saw each other. And yes, I think that stability was so helpful. I I always knew I could go home and I always knew you were gonna be there. Just like so, so fortunate for that, like just having all of that stability in my life.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

And even after college, when we were living in different places, we would still come home for the holidays and your family would come over for Christmas and we would see you. And yeah, we always had the get togethers with the high school friends as well, and we kept it alive. We really did. So thankfully the technology has increased so much that even when we haven't been together for all that time between college and now, luckily we are together now, but we had the phones and you know, all that awesome technology that keeps us closer.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

So yeah, for sure. No, we're back in the same town, thank God. Same state, thank God. Yeah, yeah, almost same town. Almost like one town overall. I'll take it. So maybe we skip ahead a little bit. And I think just for like time's sake, we wanted to talk about pregnancy and kids and our kids. And so maybe, maybe we do that. And I'm just I'm wondering, um yeah, what what I mean, I'll just like open-ended. What do you want to say about like pregnancy and like how your body changed and just like how you how you dealt with that?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Yeah, I think I have three boys now, and that they were interesting. Pregnancies, none of them were really easy. And my first one was the easiest. I think I definitely was very in tune with what was going on in my body during those three times. And, you know, we had talked before this that it's kind of a time when you either have to accept your body, you know, and stay healthy. And fortunately, that's the route that I took. You know, your body changes so much in so many ways, and it needs different things than, you know, when you're not pregnant. And so I had cravings and, you know, I wanted my frozen yogurt with peanut butter sauce on it from sweet frog. That's what I wanted. And I definitely allowed myself to do those things. And with my first pregnancy, I was late by 10 days and gosh, it felt like forever. But it was a healthy pregnancy. And yeah, I just sort of accepted what my body needed and fed it that and was just so grateful, not being my first child. I mean, not that you're not every time, but just having a healthy nine months and having a healthy baby. My other two pregnancies, I had a bit of a different experience where I went into preterm labor with them. I think my earliest was at 24 weeks, and I was put on bed rest. So that was a totally different scenario. I had to accept that I was not going to be exercising. I was not even going to be walking. With my first son, I was doing a lot of walking. I wasn't doing my regular exercising, which is something that's super important to me, both for my body, but also for my mind. But I also like my mind to be fit as well. And those last two pregnancies, I was literally stuck in my bedroom on my bed, just with only the allowance to go to the restroom. That was really difficult. And the first pregnancy, it was before phones were really you could watch TV or do anything on them. We didn't have a TV in the bedroom. I was talking earlier, telling my youngest guy about being on the podcast today, which I was so excited about, and he was too. And he kept saying, Wait, what do you mean? You really sat there the whole time? And I'm like, how do you not know this? I always tell them that I was a bird on a nest waiting for them to hatch. But yeah, so I really had to accept my body. My whole lifestyle changed at that point. I'm a busybody. I like to be active. I like to check things off lists. I like to get things done. And it was a time when I couldn't do any of those things. And I just had to go with what I was told. I was just thinking back to your mom, was actually so helpful to me during those times. She would drive me into some of my appointments for me and take me, and she would always have a surprise for me. I remember my favorite one was from this restaurant, Tapa's, and it has this amazing Greek salad dressing. And I remember when she brought that to me and she would think of all these interesting little things and treats. But I will say she really liked to go different routes to the hospital when I was going. And she took this one route, and I thought I was going to give birth right then and there. I mean, it was like pot hole after pot hole. I was sweating. Oh my goodness. But um, but yeah, so I, you know, I had to accept my fate in those times. It was very difficult to do, but I had no choice. We got through it. My husband and I did not get divorced, so that was great because the poor guy was doing two different jobs, managing his work career, which was our, he was the breadwinner, also managing our household, which was a lot because in both of those cases, there was at least one or two other young kids in the house. And then my mom actually was just our savior. She just came over every day. She would get me my meals, she would do laundry, she would do grocery shopping, she would pick up the kids, she would play with the kids, she did everything. So we are eternally grateful for that. But yeah, I think that really changed my perspective on things. And boy, was I ready when those pregnancies were over and I had healthy boys that I could then go and I said to anybody, if you ever want to do anything outside the house, I'm your girl. Do you need me to go here or go there? I'll go do it. Just get me out of this house. So yeah, so I think that, you know, pregnancy has been a huge time for me. And I think that after those pregnancies, I really focused on getting back to what made me feel healthy. And I'm fortunate to have been able to get back in a place where I feel my body is in a good place, my spirit is in a good place, and I can do the things that I want to do today. So the pregnancies were tough for me, but they sure taught me a lot. And I'm so grateful to have my three boys healthy and living their lives. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

And yeah, and our moms are true angels on earth and just blessings. And I know that's like why we moved back to this area so we could be you know close, be closer to our family. So 100% we can get some help and support, and so that our guests can know our parents, and like that's really a true blessing. And yeah, bed rest is real, and I uh was fortunate not to have to go through that, but such a true test of like your determination and patience, really when it was harder to distract, right? Because we didn't have social media and we didn't have phones and you're not even on social media really anyway. That's okay. Even if I would have been like anything to maybe get through, you know, the rest of your pregnancy. That was like only like barely, you know, halfway. And I think I was so, as you know, I had my kids later and I was so focused on like my anxiety that like that my babies would be okay. Yeah, and so like that preoccupied a lot of my mind. And I was fortunate to, like I said, not be on bed rest and unworked up until like I think like two days before Hudson was born. Oh my gosh, wow. Well, he was supposed to be born November 21st, and he was born on the 16th, and my last day of work was on the 15th. Oh, my boss was like, you know, that's like the end of the pay period on the 15th, so why don't you end on that day? And I was like, okay. And then like I had an appointment on the 16th at pre-clampsy. I didn't know at the time, and so like they induced labor, and here we are. But I was like, I had all these plans for those four days. I even like my birthing class was supposed to be like that Saturday, and like I was so in denial about so many things. But yeah, I think I was just like really worried about sustaining the pregnancy and having healthy babies. I mean, I feel like it's drilled into our heads that once you're older, geriatric pregnancies, hate that term, you know, that there just comes greater risk with that. And so that's really all I could think about. So my anxiety was like in super high gear, but I do remember working in in my office and having this moment of like, my clothes don't fit. And like, I need to get new clothes so that they fit my body. And my body's changing and it's growing and it's doing what it needs to do. And I feel like at that moment I in a very small way related to my clients with eating disorders in the sense of like my body is changing, it needs to, and and I need to address it appropriately, if that means like going up in sizes. And I know like pregnancy is temporary, however, body change is not, and you know, my body is different now, you know, pregnancies change our bodies. So that's what I remember. And and I will say, like, for people listening, that you didn't even know I was pregnant, like, because I didn't tell anybody, but I know both of my kids, and even more so with myself.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Oh my gosh, that was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Crazy surprise you in person.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

I was like, you were eight months. Was I eight months pregnant or something? You were literally probably eight months pregnant. It was crazy. You got out of the car, and I literally like I was in shock. You were full blown pregnant, about to have your child.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Yeah. Well, I didn't even tell my husband until I was well past that very risky period. Like, I think I was like three, four months and wanted to do all the genetic testing and make sure that I'm viable. And because I'd had experience with miscarriage and I didn't want to like worry anybody unnecessarily, but you know, in hindsight, like that was kind of lonely. Yeah, I'm sure it was. So if I were to do it differently, I probably would have told you like a lot sooner. But I was I was it was my anxiety though, like that if I share this and like and something happens, like I don't know, but then that support would be there. I know you're always there for me. So I knew you'd be there for me, but I was just so, so anxious. And that preoccupied my mind more than like thinking about my body changing. Although I do remember going to dinner once with friends and being like, so I ordered an appetizer, like our friends weren't there yet, and I was like, I ordered an appetizer and this is all for me, and don't touch it. Like not eating all, not sharing. Like I was ravenous, and yeah, and so like paying attention to hunger cues and cravings and like yeah, and like and having those things. Pregnancy teaches you a lot.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

It sure does, it's all worth it.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yep, very much worth it. And so maybe we talk a little bit about like the messages about bodies or food that we instill in our children and our kids. And I don't know what where do you want to start with that? Anything you want to say about that?

SPEAKER_00 42:05

I think we both are on the same page about what we do in our homes to try to instill particular habits. We both talked about before this that we have a sit-down dinner with our families every night, and that that's not an option. We do that, of course, with crazy sports schedules and stuff. Sometimes that doesn't work, but we're in a phase right now where we're able to do that. And I think that sets the tone for good, healthy habits.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

I know you're kind of at a different phase than my kids, because my kids range from 13 years old to 18. So it's a little bit of a different, you know, we have one kind of in puberty and then the rest that are just very physically active.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Yeah. But you you bring up, I think, several good points, too. I want to highlight. One is like the stability of meals. And when my brother and sister were on separate shows, we talked about that, like just having that regularity of meals and that it was like expected and available. And like that's also a privilege that we have. But like, yeah, that there's food available and that there are regular times in which like we will sit down. And outside of that, like that there's food available too, right? Like to be able to grab snacks and things like that. But also like that, that is family time too, and that's a time to like connect. And I mean, I'm even thinking way ahead, but I'm like, hopefully, like no phones at the table. Like, I can hear myself saying that already, even though my kids are too young to have phones. Yeah. So I think in our house, you know, our youngest is two and a half. And so right now it's like six, six, yeah. Getting it, right? Like that's God. Yeah. So to be able to like sit and and eat and not like sit and run and sit. That's where we are. But something that I Thought a lot about becoming a mom was mealtime. I was in grad school for nine years and I would eat when I could. Oftentimes it was rushed or standing up. And like I always felt like I ate enough, but it wasn't like a relaxed experience and was fueled. And then I'd go on to my next thing. But you know, I'm I'm now it's like it feels a little bit more pragmatic. And now I need to plan. And what are we going to have this week? And really making sure that we have meals and that they're prepared and that we all sit down and that we make enough time for it and that it's not rushed and people aren't standing up and that we're not just like throwing food in our mouth and then going to hockey or whatever, that it's like, you know, that it's a sacred time. I think it translates to like that's a sacred time for your body. Like you need to honor your body in that way and like listen to your body and feed it enough and feed it well.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

I think you made a really good point too, that it's important to set that example of planning of the meals and really making sure that you have the meat, the vegetables, the grains, whatever it is, whatever balance you're trying to set the example for. But I know that if I don't plan, then I can't put a healthy meal together. So I always have to do that. I'm very regimented about that. And the boys see that. And I often will kind of poll them and say, okay, what meal do you want this week? You get to choose two or one or whatever it might be, because I get super bored of making the same meals. But because, you know, I want to make sure that they're getting things that they're looking forward to and that they enjoy our family meals as well.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Yeah, that's really nice. I think we'll get there.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

You will, you're not there yet.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

But and and so I'm in this phase of like try it, right? Like it's this new thing, try it. And I I have your voice in the back of my head saying, like, because I I'm not gonna, I can't, you know, continue to make other things if the first choice is rejected. And so, like, there's this standby that I know you've helped me with this idea of like there's this standby meal that, like, if you don't want this, then you can have this, right? And it's something that like, you know, it's easy. We already know they like it, it suffices as a meal. I'm not going to like cook for another hour and make something up. Like we can't, it'll be bedtime, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:20

So we still have that today, even with my kids. I'd say the option is a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Yeah. And I think it's giving that choice, right? I'm trying to move away from like, this is what I made, this is what you have to eat, and like clean play club. I'm moving away from that. And I understand where that comes from because I think I kind of grew up with that. But I really want my kids to like have choice. I want them to enjoy food, I want them to like figure out food preferences, sure, and also pay attention to homegrown fullness. So, like it's very hard at this. My kids at six and two. Absolutely. I want to rush through this meal so I can have dessert. And like, yeah, I offer dessert and uh every night. And I don't think my oldest is seeing the logic of like, if you're full, that doesn't mean that you, you know, have dessert and have more. Like, let's wait, right? Yeah, like because that's the coveted thing. Like, he wants that. And like it's not off limits, it's still fine. But like if you're full, pay attention to that, let's wait a little bit and are still hungry and want dessert, then we can do it. But yeah, don't rush through the meal just to get to dessert. Like then you're not connecting with your body at all. You're not like, am I full? Am I satisfied? Or do I just want this thing? Because both are okay. Like you can still have this thing and you can still feel okay being full. So it's a lot of things that I've learned over the years as an eating disorder therapist and trying to teach those fundamentals to my kids. And that's kind of cool how it's coming out in that way. Yeah. I also think like this message early on about like, you know, that food is fuel and if you want to like play hockey and basketball, right? That like you you need fuel to do that. And so like trying to make these connections early, I think is important too. And also this focus that we grew up with, which is like being strong and like strength for your body and being able to like you know, score a goal or like make a basket or whatever. It's like you you, you know, that that requires some strength and food helps you do that. And so I'm trying to like make that connection really early. That's great. You're doing the right thing. Thank you. Okay. So I'm probably gonna continue when my kids are 13 and 18, right? I'm sure you will. It never ends. Yeah. You're always their mom. So maybe I know something else that that we talked about, and maybe something that we'll end with is a couple other topics, COVID and injuries. We were kind of brainstorming earlier about how you've experienced long COVID and have had some some injuries and surgeries. And wondering just like how that impacted you and like the relationship that you have like with your body. And yeah, I a lot of thoughts here, but like, yeah, yeah, what first comes to mind for you around like having long COVID and dealing with injuries lately?

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Yeah, I definitely, as I mentioned before, like to exercise. I like to be in a good space. To me, that is having my body in a good space and my mind in a good space. And I've become really reliant on exercise for that. It makes me feel good. And unfortunately, I did suffer from long haul COVID for quite a long time. And that really was debilitating to me. I was not able to do many of the things that I wanted to do. And I spent a lot of time in bed with migraines and just a lack of energy. And I was super busy with a ton of different types of doctor's appointments all over the place. And yeah, I wasn't, to me, I wasn't my best self. And I was being restrained from doing all the things I wanted to. So definitely my body wasn't where I wanted to be. I didn't look well, I didn't feel well, and that was really challenging for me. And thankfully, you know, it finally has cleared and things are good. It took a long time. But when I did start to feel better, I decided to take care of some long-term injuries that I'd had in my hips. And then I also had a bunch of nerve damage from the long COVID. I had nerve damage in my elbow, which was causing me a lot of pain and tingling. And so last year I had two hip surgeries and an elbow surgery all in one year. We're just trying to keep the orthopedic business alive. But I wanted to get it all done at once because it was my feeling of I know how when I feel well, and I feel well when I have the freedom to make choices with my body and what I'm gonna do with it, and then recover from that and get back in shape and then go back out and have another hip surgery and be on crutches and not be able to exercise for long periods of time and go back have this back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So I really went, you know, hit at home and did them all at once. And thankfully I'm back and this year has been great. It's been really helpful when I go to the gym that I go to. I go to classes and the coaches know me and they know my restrictions. And so they're always willing to give me substitute exercises to do when need be. And I figured out how to kind of do those myself as well. So I find it like just a very welcoming, healthy environment for me now. But yeah, it's hard to have setbacks when you're trying to maintain a certain level in your body and your mind when you can't control it. And sure, you know, there were times when I was really down and feeling depressed over those things. It's hard not to when you're being plagued for so long, especially with the long haul COVID. But as I say, thankfully that's behind me and I'm back in my regular life now. So I'm grateful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

And we had COVID at the same time, and I prayed God I didn't give it to you. I don't know. I remember exactly where we were outside on your trip, um when we were last like with each other before we got COVID. And I think like when we were talking, like you tested positive for COVID, and I was like, okay. So I was sort of like on a work, like, okay, maybe I have it, and I didn't, and then I did. But like I think it deserves mention, right? Like that just how you said debilitating that was and how long it was. And I like visited you throughout that time and like how much it it took from you, and like anybody that knows you knows that like you are busy and legit have a color-coded calendar to keep track of everything and all of your boys' activities, and like that came to a sudden halt. And that that's hard for I I mean, I'm I don't mean to speak for you, but like I can't imagine like how that must have been for you, just like literally like overnight, like how you are and function in the world being like ripped from you and like having to give yourself and your body time to heal. Like that that was years of that. And did you were there times where you thought it might not end?

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just was so frustrated. I had so many symptoms in basically every part of my body. I still have some of the symptoms, but they're manageable. But I I went to so many doctors and so many people just had no answers for me about anything. And I ended up being part of like a research study at Yale. Right. And the research study was great. I did a clinical study as well where I was willing to try anything as the bottom line. There was this clinical trial they were doing there, and I did that, and I was definitely not given the placebo. It was torturous. It was awful. And it was a long time from that time that I did recover. I had sort of worsening symptoms actually after that. So yeah, I mean, debilitating is really the words that I use to describe it because it is just awful to have your life ripped away from you. It was really difficult. But yeah, I mean, thankfully I did continue with the research study, and that was great. They they that was a place where I could have a central hub, basically. And I wasn't just on my own managing from doctor to doctor from which medication I'm on every time I go to a doctor's office repeating the same things over and over again. And to get some helpful suggestions from them was really great. So I really appreciated that.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like nobody had answers because nobody knew enough. Yeah. And so it was like yeah, so many unknowns. But I'm glad that these new experts, because COVID is new, you know, relatively, that that you you had access to to that. Yes, thank goodness. And sorry that it got worse before it got better.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

That's okay. It got better. That's all I care about.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

And like also addressing these longer term injuries with your hips, right? Like really, really addressing that and knowing that like it's time to do that, right? Like, okay, I'm starting to feel come out of this long COVID. And like, what else does my body need? Like, really answering. I mean, if if this isn't listening to your body, I don't know what is, right? Like being able to go to all these appointments to address the symptoms and then like, okay, it's time to really. So my body's coming out of this long COVID and really repair other things that I've been dealing with for a long time. Really, like, brave of you to address everything in a short amount of three surgeries in a year. Like, that's that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Yeah, I mean, it was a lot, but as I said, I wanted to get them done all at the same time. And I'm glad I addressed them. And part of what I'm learning now, too, in terms of my body, is that I need to know my limitations and I don't want to have to go through those things again. So I definitely do a lot of modifications at the gym. I used to be super competitive with myself, and I've literally learned not to do that anymore at the gym. And I, this is gonna sound a little crazy, but sometimes if I'm on the treadmill and I'm not doing the job, I don't run anymore. I jog or I walk. And I'll literally say to myself in the mirror, like, this is what you can do. Good for you. I just know that I can't get back into that competitive phase with myself where I need to be running at these crazy speeds, and that's not where my body is anymore. I used to be able to do that, and it's okay that I can't anymore. And I think that with a lot of these body images things, you have to accept all the different situations that you're given, and you have to accept them. And it's not healthy to not accept them and to deny your body things that they might need or to do things that might cause damage to them.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Yeah, you can't. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. I relate to that. And I think I didn't know about like modifications to movience until like yoga. And I was like, I cannot put my arm that way, like these years of rotator cuff stuff. Like, if I do my gosh, right, it'll I know it all, it all it'll pop out, and so not gonna do that. And like, I think that's another really good example of listening to your body and honoring your body for what it can and can't do. Yeah, and pushing up against that like no pain, no gain kind of BS. Yeah, because it's like if there's no pain, good, there's no pain. And let's exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

I'm too old for that anyway.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Well, I mean, thanks so much for being here. I know we went over on our time, and I really value you as my best friend and a human being, and I'm so grateful for you and thank you for contributing to this podcast and our conversation. And I know we've had these conversations before, but sharing that with the world, that's super awesome. So I love you. I'm grateful for you, and thank you for being on today. Thank you, Sarah. You're great. I'm proud of you. Okay, everyone. Well, thank you for listening, and I'll see you next time. Bye for now.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Thank you everyone for taking the time to listen in this week. I'm so glad you're here with me as we learn more from our wise bodies and about eating disorder recovery. For more, follow me on social media and please share the Wise Body Podcast with your friends. Lastly, if you're interested in a free client consultation, please reach out on drhughes.com. And remember, always take care of yourself and your tempo. See you next time on the Wise Body Podcast.