#3 What it's like building a business being over 50 with Kathleen Wisemandle

After 30 years in corporate Kathleen felt called to start her own business, learn about how she navigated this being a woman over 50. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleenharperwisemandle/

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Join the Empowered over 50 campaign here and get a discount: https://www.miriambulcherphotography.com/empoweredover50

We are looking for women over 50 to participate in our Empowered over 50 Campaign: https://www.miriambulcherphotography.com/empoweredover50

Transcript

Miriam Bulcher (00:01)
Welcome to today's episode of Empowered Over 50. And I am extremely excited because when I reached out to a few of my clients to be on this podcast, I was like, oh my gosh, what are all the different things that my clients that have participated in the Over 50 campaign have gone through? Because there are so many amazing things that these women are doing. And I feel like...

they are so inspirational, inspirational to not only just me and women in my age group, but I feel like especially inspirational to those other women that are over 50. So today I have with me Kathleen Weismandel and she is absolutely phenomenal. We connected a few years ago. She was a part of the 23, 2023 campaign. And so Kathleen, tell us about you.

Kathleen Wisemandle (00:46)
Well, thank you so much, Maryam, for having me. So I'm Kathleen Weismandel. I'm 55 years old. And almost three years ago, I decided that I really just wanted more of something. And I couldn't quite understand what it was. But after being in corporate life for 30 years, I decided it was not corporate life. So I thought if I wasn't going to take a chance at that point, I didn't know when I was going to. And I never wanted to look back and regret it. So.

That's why I took a pivot at that age. I'm in the Chicagoland area. I was a R &D drug development leader for over 30 years. Always loved developing and building teams. So I decided as for my pivot was to help early startup founders, specifically in the life science arena, but also...

really coaching those folks who wanted more from not only their career, but their lives as well. And maybe just finding a little more self-awareness and helping them understand sort of their overall purpose. And I think just during that journey, I've grown so much and I was really happy to sort of kick it off with your campaign at a point when it was really important for me to have, start gaining some confidence in this space.

Miriam Bulcher (02:01)
Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about what that was like getting to the point where you felt okay saying, I'm going to take this job because it is absolutely terrifying, know, leaving especially a job that you've had for a considerable amount of time, 30 years. What was that journey like getting from, okay, I'm going to this job day in and day out, Monday through Friday to actually

I'm going to start listening more to my desires and my intuition. what does that look like?

Kathleen Wisemandle (02:33)
Yeah, that's really tough for us women, especially as being caregivers and leaders and partners. And I think what happened for me is I started recognizing a pattern of my development over the last few positions that I had and realizing as I was into a position for two or three years and solving complex problems and getting things sort of more efficient and building teams, I lost that ability to continue to work on complex things.

more complex things to work on. So what I did was I talked to a few different people who had taken the jump and decided to enroll in an entrepreneurial workshop that allowed me to sort of dig into the space and learn a little bit more while I was still employed to see if this was a risk I wanted to take. very, I have a very analytical side as a scientist. I wanted to know the nuts and bolts to say, this make sense? At the same time, I had

completed a master's degree a few years ago and to do a coaching certification on top of that was just a few more classes. So I thought I'll do that as well because it's something that I'll continue to do regardless if I take this leap. So I really just wanted to inform myself what were some of the steps I needed to take, what were some of the risks I needed to take, and if it didn't work out what were my backup plans. Those are really important for me. So those were the things I looked at originally.

Miriam Bulcher (04:02)
Okay, so what do you feel like helped you feel comfortable making the decision the most?

Kathleen Wisemandle (04:07)
Yeah, I think talking to some other women in this space who said, hey Kathleen, I decided to take this chance. And what I decided was I am learning and growing. And at some point, based on the amount of savings I either run through or certain milestones, if I haven't made my goal by that point, I can pivot and find another job. And I thought, you know what? I could find another job. I might not love it, but I did feel like I had a significant amount of savings.

accumulated to allow me to try this out. I had my retirement for 30 years, so I knew that I wasn't risking that. Yeah, and I knew my family would be okay. So those were some sort of precautions I had and things that I determined were sort of my safeguards, if you will, to try this out.

Miriam Bulcher (05:01)
Yeah, absolutely. What was it like actually taking the jump? Like, what was it like emotionally going through, like submitting your notice and like, what did you experience internally kind of being like, my gosh, I'm actually doing this, you know? Really?

Kathleen Wisemandle (05:15)
It was so freeing. Like, I couldn't believe

it. This is a person I never thought I would be. I had previously set up an LLC and didn't do much with it. So it was sort of take two, but with being much more prescriptive and being much more thoughtful in it. But once I gave my notice, I think a lot of people thought I was, you know, a little crazy.

And I kind of had to get through that, that it was not about them, it was about me and that I was being a very careful partner and parent as well. But yeah, I felt really excited to not be tethered to someone else's vision or goal and to really be able to have an impact, which was really important to me. So this goal was much more about pivoting to be generative, to be giving back. And initially I thought,

maybe my earnings might not be too different. I think I came to realize that was naive. But my overall purpose when I look at my vision statement and my values is to give back and provide meaning to others while getting meaning and growing myself. Yeah, so wasn't about making money. Although I should have been in there somewhere. Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (06:27)
Yeah, absolutely. sure. Yeah, absolutely.

But I feel like that's also like part of being a business owner and like growing in the business owner space is like finding the fine line between, OK, so I really want to give back to people and I really and this is really gratifying, but I also would like to make money. Right.

Kathleen Wisemandle (06:50)
Yes,

that's been a struggle of sort of defining both of those pieces. It's so much easier to say I just want to give back and do good work. Yeah, for sure.

Miriam Bulcher (06:54)
Yeah.

Absolutely. Well, and

I think as women, it's very easy for us to say, well, I can give, right? Like we have been giving, especially those of us that have children. like it's it's almost like innate to be able to be like, yeah, sure. Give, give, give, give. Right. Like we love seeing the gratification of what other people get when we do give. And so it's like a really one sided addiction. That's like, you know.

Kathleen Wisemandle (07:16)
Yes.

Yes, for sure!

Miriam Bulcher (07:20)
And it's so helpful, especially when you do have children, yet it's almost like you reach a point where you're like, that's not so helpful anymore. So who is it really helping if I'm still giving but those people don't need it and now I'm over here giving to people that do need it. But like, where do I find a sweet spot that's like giving is still good for them, but it's also good for me too.

Kathleen Wisemandle (07:28)
Yes.

Yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. That was actually part of the learning journey. And really having, so then I joined another community of entrepreneurs and being in that community helped me understand my value, helped me understand my pricing, helped me understand that even though these primarily women, but some men as well, were in different sectors, a lot of those same themes were coming up for us. So I felt like I was really anchored in

Miriam Bulcher (07:46)
Mm-hmm.

Kathleen Wisemandle (08:10)
the success of others and not just guessing.

Miriam Bulcher (08:14)
Yep, absolutely. Which is, mean, there's so many things to navigate when you start a business. And that's why, you know, I wanted to have you on here because it's very challenging for anybody to start a business. And then it's like, okay, you know, you have this experience behind you. You have your knowledge behind you, right? At your stage when you do start the business that it's like, okay, you know, what are some additional things that you feel like have been?

extra challenge? Do you feel like there has been any extra challenges like at your age demographic that you feel like might have been different otherwise? Like I'm really curious to know.

Kathleen Wisemandle (08:50)
Yes, well, so I do. I think that there's judgment when I first meet people that I'm on the down slide. That this is something I am just trying to do to sort of make my way to retirement. And I couldn't, I have to say nothing could be further from the truth. Like this is my opportunity to really take something and.

build it in this stage of my life and continue. It's something that means so much to me and as part of who I am. I don't think everybody feels this way though, Miriam. I think I kind of had this assumption that people would see what I was doing and say, that makes so much sense. But I think there's a lot of prove mentality that goes on that you have to really prove yourself that you're not just in it.

to be more comfortable. That was kind of a really weird awakening for me when I had to realize I had to kind of prove myself as still being valuable at this stage in my career and that my experience isn't static, but all those years has accumulated for me to understand and have this intuition about not only leadership, but also the life sciences space. And I still struggle with that a little bit. I'm still confused on why that's such a hard.

thing for folks to understand, but it continues to be a message.

Miriam Bulcher (10:16)
Which is so, I mean, and this is the reason why, you know, my campaign started in the first place and why we're continuing this discussion via podcast, because I don't understand why people think that once you reach a certain age that you're on your way out and like that your that your knowledge and your wisdom and your experience are no longer valuable when in reality you we should be actively seeking that more. Right. Like

Kathleen Wisemandle (10:41)
Yes, yes.

Miriam Bulcher (10:43)
Well, and that like all of a sudden, if you reach a certain age, like your tank is empty. Like what's up with that? It's like you don't cease to be a person once you reach a certain age. Like, absolutely. You do get, you know, I think a lot of people are like, well, you're supposed to spend your free time dilly dallying. And it's like, well, hold on a minute, because what if my interests are giving back to society, right? And really showcasing and being able to lead others so that they don't have to go through what I went through.

Kathleen Wisemandle (11:06)
Yes.

Miriam Bulcher (11:08)
And you think that

Kathleen Wisemandle (11:08)
Yes.

Miriam Bulcher (11:09)
people would be actively grabbing onto that like, yes, please save me the trouble. Please save me the frustration. so like, it just it really grinds my gears because I'm like, you know, you look at someone with your wisdom and experience and it's like, we should be shouting that from the rooftops. Like it should be something that's seen as absolute, like 110 percent. Yes. Not like a hmm. OK, that's questionable. What do you feel like you've had to do or working on to kind of

navigate like or kind of change like that perception because it's almost like it's a perception before you even get to open your mouth which is not fair.

Kathleen Wisemandle (11:46)
Right, I think it's a one dimensional sort of perspective of how someone looks from a chronology or a CV or maybe even a LinkedIn profile. But I realized that once I started getting out into my ecosystem, people could see the person that I was, they could see my energy, they could speak to me and realize that I had important things to say, or more importantly, I think is asking the right questions at my stage.

So I want to ask the right questions to learn what these founders or these leaders need or are experiencing and helping them navigate through that. And so I think just also reframing for myself as you need to get out there and have people see you in action was a really big learning for me and it makes sense completely.

Miriam Bulcher (12:34)
Yeah,

yeah, it's like shifting as like, I am the expert instead of kind of like assuming that people would understand that inherently just because of your experience.

Kathleen Wisemandle (12:43)
Yes, and to be honest, I think as women, we tend to keep our heads down and do the work that we're doing really well in our organizations. So while I was networking in my organization, prior to this, I had not been networking well outside of my organization within my industry or even beyond my industry. So that's one thing I tell younger leaders and younger folks and even my

folks my age is continue to do that, continue to build those because they're not only sources of information and support, but they also can, they can see who you are and know what you're up to. And that's been, I think, one of the best things I've done and learned during this time.

Miriam Bulcher (13:26)
Absolutely.

Yeah. And I think it's really hard as any business owner at any stage to be like, I'm going to be seen and I'm going to be seen on this level. And it's like, it's really disconcerting. It's so disconcerting because it's like, shoot, I'm stepping into running a business, which is also especially in the starting phase, like it is so attached to you as a person.

Kathleen Wisemandle (13:51)
Yes,

it is.

Miriam Bulcher (13:52)
And it

is a very vulnerable thing that can just be so hard. And then in your, you know, phase to be like, to even step it up another notch when you're already like, man, it's hard, like to showcasing me and then to be able to showcase me as an expert. Like it really pushes you so far out, side your comfort zone even further. How do you feel like that is like, do you feel like having to do that and kind of like

Kathleen Wisemandle (14:13)
Totally.

Miriam Bulcher (14:18)
get more assertive about you, your services and what you're able to give. Do you feel like that has affected your just internal relationship with yourself, like outside of the business aspect of things?

Kathleen Wisemandle (14:30)
holy cow, yes, it's been a really big learning journey, lots of self-reflection.

Being more brave, definitely.

reframing the self-talk in my head, understanding that this is about experimentation as we were talking about before we started. Experimenting and learning and iteration is part of this entrepreneurial journey. It's not about staying in a box. That's why I'm here. So I think balancing that is important. And I can get caught up very much in one of those pieces and forget and bring myself back to say,

it is iteration, what did you learn, keep moving forward, and being okay with that. That's part of this journey. And it's a mindset that's a big change from a very corporate linear focused mindset. So it's all good. It's just uncomfortable, but that's part of growth.

Miriam Bulcher (15:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel like what you're going through now, would what do you ever wonder like, what would this have looked like? Or maybe it would have looked different if I had done this like, I don't know, in my 40s, like had that thought ever kind of like come up ever?

Kathleen Wisemandle (15:51)
I don't think so because there were some steps I took in the last part of my career that really helped me understand who I was as a leader and who I was as a person. And going through the pandemic, leading and building a team through the pandemic was really an important part of that. But also where my children are in their lives is another piece of that transition that played into it for me. My children are all now in college or have

moved on past meeting me in the same way. And so I have this independence in a way that I am comfortable with to grow and spend time in this space developing this. I'm just transitioning from one place in my life to another and it served itself right at the right time. think those things had to happen for me to be here.

Miriam Bulcher (16:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so it felt right. It felt very like, okay, the universe is pushing me. It feels very like this is the natural next step to take.

Kathleen Wisemandle (16:50)
Yes.

I really felt like, and some of that wisdom I think comes with being at this age. I think I may have told you I read a book called A Call to Further Becoming, and it was written by a woman who did research of women in their 50s and some women in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and I think she was also doing separate research for men. But many of us get to this point and say, I am done with this one part of my life, but I'm not done yet. I still have so much I want to do.

discovery, self discovery, so many aspects of just learning and growing and doing things differently, being a different person, wandering about in nature, all sorts of things, understanding solitude better. I think they're all part of at least my evolution and many women I've talked with and some men as well.

I think I've come to realize I'm not just weird, that this is normal in some cases. And I also needed that. I also needed that reassurance that this wasn't just me on a fluke, that this is something that's meaningful to this point in my journey.

Miriam Bulcher (18:00)
Yeah.

At what point did you discover that book and how did you discover it? Because I feel like that is such a niche like topic.

Kathleen Wisemandle (18:05)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I was speaking with another leader who had pivoted and created her own business and she was a little bit older than I was and she was part of one of the entrepreneurial networks I was part of. And she said, have you read this book? And I said, no, it sounds perfect. She was helping me see, mirroring me and saying, this is part of a natural journey, read it. And so when I read it, then I started reaching out to women in my network saying,

this is what I'm learning. There's more to us than just this. took an opportunity to create a community of women over 50. And there were a few of us that took this journey and learned from each other that we don't have to be done yet and we can continue and grow and support each other in ways that we weren't able to in our 40s or 30s. And it's really quite liberating, but also scary.

Miriam Bulcher (19:04)
Yeah, absolutely.

Kathleen Wisemandle (19:06)
There's, it's not just one, it's both. I would say that to anybody is that the part that's scary is the part to lean into. If you, if you are able, if you have, you know, I don't, know that I have privilege to be able to try this. Not everyone has that, you know, at all times in their lives. But this, as long as you have that baseline securities, you know, try, try to lean into being scared a little bit.

Miriam Bulcher (19:09)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that so much. And I love that, you know, it sounds, really does sound like everything just kind of popped into your lap, like at the perfect time that led to this like, you know, next step in self-evolution, which is so beneficial, not only to you, but to everyone that you are serving as well. And it's really beautiful to see because I think it's a really amazing reminder that, you know, you are being led in the right direction. And if you can trust that and trust that, you know, these ideas are not just, you know, dumb.

or you know what I mean? Because it's a very easy car. Yeah. And it's very easy to fall into that trap when you're just thinking by yourself, right? And you're just thinking like, well, you know, and whether it be like health insurance or anything, right? That's like, it's very hard to leave certain structures that have felt very safe and secure and have given you, like you said, retirement, right? Like there's a lot of things that are very hard to say goodbye to and can make this dream or this idea feel that much more scary. And so this is

Kathleen Wisemandle (20:07)
Yeah, I'm fart-fetched.

Miriam Bulcher (20:35)
I'm really hoping that the women who are listening are like, like it's, of course, like you said, you have to make sure the kind of baseline things are taken care of, but that to still listen to yourself and to still listen to your own wants and desires, because at the end of the day, we as women, think are called to so much more than we want to acknowledge, because it is, like you said, absolutely terrifying, absolutely difficult, but yet how would you describe?

your sense of gratification now versus when you were working in corporate.

Kathleen Wisemandle (21:12)
that's a great question because sometimes I will trick myself and say it was so much better, why did I leave? And that can happen too. And I will be reminded by my friends and my husband to say you were no longer at that point. So I do miss my team very much. I had a very wonderful team, so I miss them. But I try to find gratitude when I am working with others, when they have either...

essence of self-awareness. When I'm working with a founder who now realizes, there is a next step. It's not so, you know, I can now plan out the next steps for my company and understand what those are. And there is a way to understand what could go wrong so we can plan effectively. I'm not just going alone in the dark. When I see people or hear people that I've coached say, Kathleen, I wouldn't have done this had I not had that talk with you. Now,

I'm not doing any special work for them. It's all within them, but sometimes we just need people to ask us those questions and bring that out in us so we can take that brave step. To me, that is the thing that I find most gratifying as well as also having the ability to be there for my family if they need me, which I was anyway, but it just feels a little more autonomous now. Like I said, I'm not tethered.

to this eight to five schedule of being tethered to my computer. However, I will tell you there are days I'm tethered on my own desire from seven to seven or seven to eight or on Saturdays and Sundays because I decided to go back and with everything that's happening in the organizational space to go to further my education and industrial and organizational psychology. So.

I'm probably working more hours because I know there's a need and I know I can bring more value to my clients to help them on their journeys.

Miriam Bulcher (23:17)
I love that so much. I mean, it's true. Like when you start your own business, I mean, you're kind of saying, oh, I'm not going to work eight to five, but I'm also going to work potentially 24 seven. And it's like, so you know what I mean? But, there is, like you said, yeah, like there is a lot of freedom in that. You know what I mean? Like being able to shuffle things around if someone in your family does need you, you know, if you're experiencing a health scenario, like you do, there is a lot of power and flexibility and being able to shuffle things around when you need to.

Kathleen Wisemandle (23:26)
It's never off.

Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (23:45)
And I love that you've made that decision, you know, in the furthering education aspect, because again, not only is it showing like, hey, I am not an empty tank, even further, take this people, you know what I'm saying? Really though, it's kind of like, no, no, I have so much capacity. And that is what I'm, I want to showcase that and I want to amplify that. And I feel like it's just, it is powerful to me, at least, you know, to me it's powerful. And again, why, you know, I'm...

Kathleen Wisemandle (23:55)
Yeah.

Yes.

Miriam Bulcher (24:14)
this podcast exists because I think it's really important for other women to see of all ages what you're doing. You know what I mean? I know you're and hopefully you are able to recognize this like your own power in your own capacity on a relatively routine, you know, process. But it's really important, I feel like for other women to see that like, yes, you it's not just a dead stop, right? Like a lot of people would make it seem and especially emotionally and intellectually not.

a dead stop.

Kathleen Wisemandle (24:45)
Yes,

you also know that absolutely not. Right. If anything, I'm, I'm able to do research and ingest research, you know, keep my finger on the pulse much more than I was when I was just a doer. And there was nothing wrong with me being a doer and a leader. I was so thankful for that career. It just was no longer what was serving me and maybe me not serving it as well.

either. So this pivot, I think, has ignited me to just to do more and serve more and learn more. Yeah, in this space and, and just, just want to get that message out to women of all levels and ages that there's so much more than they can, they think they are. And, you know, to really just lean into that power.

Miriam Bulcher (25:38)
Yeah, absolutely. What would you say to other women who are in, you know, this over 50 place that are feeling that tug and that pull to make change, whether it be starting a business or something else or switch, you know, corporate jobs after a really long period of time? What would you say to them? Or do you have any words of advice or things that you might have advice you might have given yourself that you know now that you wish you would have known maybe before taking the job?

Kathleen Wisemandle (25:50)
Yes.

Yeah, well, I think since the job market has changed so much, I would just say be really, really sure and possibly start by doing something part-time or diving into something that you like in a way that you can test it, prototype it a bit. I did do that and there was one way that I wanted to further explore that and it wasn't conducive with my full-time employment. So it was also a nudge to say, okay.

you know, go ahead and give it your all. But if people can sort of, you know, play with a little bit and just make sure. The other thing I would say, and I use this with all my clients, is be very focused in on what you value, what your purpose and vision are, and those will help guide you. So if you are very clear on the things that you value, say your top five values, any decision or thought that you have needs to bounce through those values to see if it still resonates and still

and still aligns with those and your overall purpose. And then of course just having the basic needs met financially and those things that are really important for your existence, having those in place to make sure. And just be open to learning and iterating because it is certainly a different vision than I initially started out with.

It's bounced around a few times, but each time I sort of go through experimentation and prototyping and sort of listening to what my clients would be needing, I'm getting clarity. And that's still progress. So small wins count.

Miriam Bulcher (27:44)
Yeah. And being

able to, think, see and recognize those, even though it might not feel like it doesn't have to be this big, you know, like goal reaching aspect to kind of get the affirmation that you have moved in the right direction. Like you said, like it's very important to be able to recognize like, OK, well, the small things that I'm doing have massive impact because I'm doing them consistently. Right. And so I love that advice because it's very easy to just focus on like the big.

achievements, you know, even in corporate it's like that. It's like, well, you you have to get this raise or you have to reach this milestone and how many, you know, years that you've worked here or whatever. And so I love that. Yeah, you brought that up because I feel like it's just so, you know, and I feel like that that applies also to like just our own personal living is just to see, you know, outside of work, to see those small little things and to recognize that they're not really that small. They're really important.

Kathleen Wisemandle (28:13)
Absolutely.

Yes.

Yes. And to be honest, some of the women that I'm working with say that, I can't take a jump right now. And that makes sense. But then I try to have them look at their whole life, relationships, hobbies, health, wellness, all of those things and say, is there anything that's out of balance? And if so, in that safe space of your employment, are you able to get more balance in your life by leaning into any of those spaces? And maybe

Maybe that's enough. mean, maybe you have a hobby or an interest or a community thing that you want to do that you haven't allowed yourself to before. Maybe pull back a little bit on the work to allow some of those other things to come into your life and see if that balances it out until you're able to pivot.

Miriam Bulcher (29:26)
Yeah, absolutely. I love that so much. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, who are you looking for as clients and who is your, you know, ideal client?

Kathleen Wisemandle (29:36)
Yeah, I really have, as I said, with iteration comes more clarity. And I think beginning my doctoral program, I'm really focusing in on leaders who want to find more purpose in themselves and their work and their lives. And so typically that is career oriented and people are typically going through a pivot where we're just trying to gain.

What is it that they love? What are their strengths? And helping people reframe to understand who they are in a good light. I think when people think about seeking coaching or investing in themselves, they think they have to fix something. And I will say that that's probably less than 2 % of what I do. It's mostly about refining their self-awareness and understanding, driving towards what they love.

and creating that positivity in their lives with the things that are around them that are positive and are working out really well. The startup founder piece, I think I'm pivoting towards helping those that are the entrepreneurs that are starting out moving from research to into the human development space. And I can see that being a smaller part of what I do, but still a way of me giving back to this part of.

what I call the innovators for drug development, who eventually then are invested in by larger pharma to take it and develop it further. So I really love giving back to that particular group. And really, I lead a group of women in bio out of Chicago, and women scientists and women, young women and women of my age in STEM. I'm really excited to help.

provide guidance for them as well as all genders, men as well in this space because there's a lot of othered men who don't necessarily always fall in the categories of those that are at the upper echelons and in the in groups. So I like to say that I'm not, I am inclusive in that way of wanting to help others who are just looking for what's next for them and how to be their true authentic selves.

Miriam Bulcher (31:56)
Yeah. And that's amazing because you're really touching in to, you know, really beautiful specific areas that are so essential. And I feel like if I were in that space, I feel like, honestly, even from what I've seen from my own networking and my own community, there's not a whole lot of coaching in those specific areas. But I feel like it's such a white, like if I were to enter into that space, it would be like, whoa, like this world is so big and it feels daunting and it feels like, my gosh, you know, I feel like there would be a lot of

Kathleen Wisemandle (32:23)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (32:25)
pressure to kind of, you know what I mean? Like in terms of like not even pacing, but just like performance and like having having the need to kind of outperform, like, you know what I mean? So I love that you're able to offer the guidance and the wisdom because I mean, it's, I feel like it would just be so needed for the for both of those demographics, which is, you know, really incredible because again, speaking to your experience, you have

seen so like everything of that spectrum. So be able to work with, you know, the already pre-existing leaders that are in that space and are wanting, you know, more for their life and also for the startup and the tech and the STEM world being like, okay, well, hold on, I still got you. Like, you know, I can hold your hand and I can walk you through it, which again, I feel like there are not very many people who have been in the industry long enough or at least been in the industry and want to share that with other people.

Kathleen Wisemandle (33:06)
Yes.

Miriam Bulcher (33:19)
And I don't know how many other, you know, people that you've met that are kind of similar in your own position. I'm curious, you feel like you've kind of met anybody else or a lot of people who were wanting to give back in your space or do you feel like you've had to search for them?

Kathleen Wisemandle (33:33)
feel like I have to search for them. But that's okay because I might just be at an inflection point that others aren't at yet or they might be in different ecosystems and that's really cool. I will have to say that the last entrepreneur community I was in, there were women in that stage who really just wanted to make things better but on their own terms. So being independent solopreneurs, helping these smaller mid-sized businesses.

customized their approach to things was really exciting to see. There are people out there that want to do this. And so I would say I'm probably not absolutely alone. There's some other folks out there, but definitely in different sectors. So it's just, again, that community feeling like I am thinking this way now, but it's not, I might be a small number, but it's not wrong.

it's okay. But I have to say we touched on this, think also offline was redefining worth in a career that isn't motivated by bonuses and stock options and raises is a lot of self work. It's a lot of work to, you know, reframe those things and

Miriam Bulcher (34:29)
Hmm.

Kathleen Wisemandle (34:55)
think that will continue, you know, after 30 years of having that. Three years of not, it just takes some time to realize that it's different, but the measures are different as well.

Miriam Bulcher (35:06)
Yeah, absolutely. feel like that. I mean, that conversation is huge because you're like, OK, well, there's no kind of like exterior self motivation, you know, like these assumed things that you kind of I feel like you would subconsciously look forward to. And so not having those little nudges, it's like, OK, I feel like you would definitely have to really have more conversations with yourself to be like, OK, I am sure I am not only sure of what.

Kathleen Wisemandle (35:23)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (35:35)
I'm doing, but also like, what am I going to reward myself with for doing the hard thing and doing and making the difficult decisions on a regular basis that I, you know, I wouldn't have had maybe quite the same or maybe the level of, or, you know, the amount of hard decisions that I have now previously. But yeah, it's, it's definitely a lot of personal development and, but like in a

Kathleen Wisemandle (35:47)
Yes.

Miriam Bulcher (36:02)
very challenging, gratifying way, because it's like once you can, once you do figure out like, okay, this is really rewarding and I'm going to aim for this, it becomes like, I don't know, it's almost like your, your power increases because now it's not coming from another, you know, entity. It's not coming. It's not reliant on a corporate company or somebody else. You're just reliant on yourself now. And so everything is kind of like this very amazing internal ability.

Kathleen Wisemandle (36:04)
Yes.

Miriam Bulcher (36:28)
And it just takes like just to see it and be like, okay, well, I'm just going to kind of choose to focus on this versus not and just like knowing and kind of relying on what's there.

Kathleen Wisemandle (36:40)
Yes, absolutely. I mentioned to my husband a few weeks ago, said, I've always been able to pivot and solve a problem by working harder. And being in this business, it doesn't work that way. I mean, I still work as hard, if not harder, but you have to also think things differently and get a sense of the pulse of the ecosystem and what clients are needing. It's a very different approach to solving problems. But at the same time, that

is a big dopamine hit for me. So I like that. It helps when there's some wins and those wins just you have to remember them. So you have to write them down because as most of us who are driven this way and I see you shaking your head as well. We forget the small wins because we're still looking for that big goal. But if we count them up frequently and we can reflect on them saying, wow, I really made a lot of progress over the last few years, even if it's just

know, internal growth.

Miriam Bulcher (37:43)
Yeah. Or, you know, the way I see it is like, well, if I'm showing up on social media and I'm showing up, great. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to give myself a massive pound on the back for that, because as a business owner, know exactly how difficult it is to maintain something like that and to to continuously, you know, show yourself over and over and over and over again with like zero breaks, because that's how the social media world works. That is how, you know, and if you want the business and you want, you know, to get seen and to make an impact, it's like.

Kathleen Wisemandle (37:49)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (38:12)
Yeah, so definitely giving myself a bow in the back for, you know, just being like, Hey, I'm going to write a post, right?

Kathleen Wisemandle (38:16)
Totally.

Well, I see your presence and I know others see your presence. I hope others see mine. I do hear and I'm sure you do too. Sometimes someone I don't even realize who's, you know, out there will say something like, I've seen your post. I'm like, whoa, people don't have to like to see and to, I think even for your children and my children to see Brave Steps is important because their world is looking very different than how our world looked and

I try to give myself a little bit of credit for that as well as, you know, I'm trying something that shows them they can also do things that are a little more difficult sometimes and it's okay.

Miriam Bulcher (38:55)
Yeah, 100%, 100%. I love that so much. I want to revisit kind of like when we first initially met and you you opted to be a part of the campaign. Do you feel that seeing yourself visually in that context, do you feel like it helped at all in the context of like showing up online and social media? And what did that feel like from like not having photos to having photos?

Kathleen Wisemandle (39:14)
totally.

This was one of the best investments I made and it was one of the first ones and I think I've told you this, it, so, first of all, seeing yourself in photos and you always do the hair and the makeup and just make us look so good, it's a little intimidating because then you wanna be sort of this authentic, very down to earth leader, but putting beautiful pictures out there is,

there's some vulnerability in that as well because there's a lot of self-talk that says who are you to put these photos out there of yourself. But it was also empowering because you helped me with the poses and such to get that sort of message I wanted out which was I'm confident but I'm also approachable and I want to help you and I felt that the photos allowed me to do that.

They also allowed me to build a website that has some of those pictures and I felt it looked very professional. I still lean on those pictures, which I know I knew new ones, so I am looking for that investment. they really helped me feel professional. And they really, even when I looked at them, made me feel like I can do this. This is a really good first step. So it was really important. Of my marketing, I think that's the only thing I've done other than my own social media and the website.

And I will say it gave me confidence. It helped me see myself. You know, they say see yourself, visualize yourself as something and it's easier to attain it. There's something to that. Seeing myself, I felt a little more empowered to go after it. And you also, you know, gave me ideas on how to utilize them. And that was super helpful because I'm a scientist.

I was not, I am not and was not a marketer. it just, it gave me ways to build some confidence early on. And I'm still appreciative for them and the message that it gave me.

Miriam Bulcher (41:23)
Yeah, that's amazing. really that's beautiful feedback even for me because it's important to me, right? The return on that investment is so, going back to the gratification aspect of things and giving back, it's like, okay, yes, I know it's a higher level product, but I do want to very much make sure that the people who are investing in this are gonna make the return on it. So to have that feedback even a few years later is really, really incredible and I value it very highly.

Yes, and I appreciate you. So is there anything else that you feel like we haven't covered in the business world or something that you you feel like would be really important for another woman to know if she's deciding to make change at this point in her life that we have not covered?

Kathleen Wisemandle (41:54)
Thank you.

Yeah, no, I just think believe in yourself, trust your instincts, be really rooted in your values and your purpose, and test it out, prototype it in different ways to give yourself the courage, but also talk about it with people that you trust or even people in the same space because knowing you aren't alone in some of your fears can really be helpful.

Miriam Bulcher (42:31)
Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. How should people connect with you if they do want to chat with you or discuss further if they're kind of in any of your ideal client areas or if they just want to connect?

Kathleen Wisemandle (42:41)
Yes, well, LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, so Kathleen Weismandel. And my website offers just sort of areas that I am experienced in. And you'll get to see the lovely pictures Miriam took at aspiretogrow.co. So it's C-O, and I'm sure that will be in your show notes. But those are the two best places. And there's a contact me form on my website. So it just comes straight to my email if you just wanna chat by email too.

Miriam Bulcher (43:10)
Amazing. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This has been so valuable. And yeah, I appreciate you.

Kathleen Wisemandle (43:13)
Thank you.

I appreciate you and thank you. I'm honored to be a guest. Thank you.

Miriam Bulcher (43:20)
Amazing. We can still chat. I'm just going to stop the recording.