#6 Getting through cancer at 51 with Joyce Hanson

In this episode of Empowered Over 50, Joyce Hansen shares her profound journey through breast cancer, discussing her mindset before diagnosis, the emotional impact of her treatment decisions, and the transformative experience of reclaiming her femininity post-mastectomy. Joyce emphasizes the importance of support systems, self-advocacy, and the power of laughter in healing. Her story serves as an inspiration for women facing similar challenges, highlighting the resilience and strength found in community and self-acceptance. In this conversation, Joyce shares her journey through breast cancer, discussing the emotional and physical changes she experienced. She emphasizes the importance of self-acceptance, the need for proactive health measures like genetic testing and self-exams, and the significance of having a supportive network. The discussion highlights the challenges women face regarding body image and health advocacy, encouraging listeners to prioritize their health and be proactive in their care.

Takeaways

• Joyce believes in laughter as the best cure for illness.
• She faced significant chaos in her life before her diagnosis.
• Receiving the cancer diagnosis was a shocking experience.
• Joyce felt a strong support system from her workplace during treatment.
• She opted for a double mastectomy to reduce cancer risk.
• Joyce's experience with expanders post-mastectomy was surprising.
• She found empowerment through her photo shoots after surgery.
• Joyce advocates for women to seek genetic testing for breast cancer.
• She emphasizes the importance of having an advocate during medical appointments.
• Joyce's journey highlights the need for emotional healing alongside physical recovery. Joyce learned to embrace her body post-cancer.
• Self-acceptance is crucial in navigating body changes.
• Genetic testing can provide valuable information for family health.
• Regular self-exams help in early detection of issues.
• Mammograms are essential, but not the only option.
• Women often need to advocate for their health needs.
• Support systems are vital for those facing cancer.
• Knowledge about one's body can empower women.
• It's important to be proactive about health screenings.
• Emotional well-being is tied to physical health awareness.

We are looking for women over 50 to participate in our Empowered over 50 Campaign: https://www.miriambulcherphotography.com/empoweredover50

Transcript

Miriam Bulcher (00:02.216)
Welcome to today's episode of Empowered Over 50. And I have with me today a very good friend. She's a client and we've lost track of how many times she has come in for a photo shoot because she comes in every year for her birthday. And we met back in 2020. Her name is Joyce Hansen. She is an absolute phenomenal of a human being. Like she's the best unicorn ever. So Joyce, don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you before we dive into the good stuff. Not that.

introducing yourself isn't good stuff, but like the nitty gritty.

Joyce (00:35.895)
So I am now 62 years old, 62 years young. Yeah, it's a number. I believe in letting the universe bring things to you and allowing it to happen. I believe in laughter as the best cure for illness, for long life, for everything. Yeah, I do my best to trust myself.

I have failed at times, but I try to just trust my gut and just go with things. yeah, not everyone would know I'm an IT geek, but I am. And I work from home, so I'm happily home with my four cats all the time.

Miriam Bulcher (01:24.304)
I love it, I love it. Okay.

Joyce (01:26.964)
And I'm good to myself. I treat myself well.

Miriam Bulcher (01:30.224)
I love it. Absolutely fabulous. OK, well, let's let's. So for those that are listening, Joyce went through breast cancer. And that is what we wanted to focus on on today's topic, because let's be real, Joyce and I could talk for probably a whole 12 hours straight and literally nonstop about every single topic under the sun. So.

Tell us about where you were at mindset wise before you knew you had cancer, because I know you've been through it, you've had quite the journey, but I want other people to know where you were at before you got the diagnosis.

Joyce (02:06.709)
So I was...

I was trying to end two years of complete chaos in my life. right before I turned 50, I broke up with my boyfriend at the time for many, many reasons. One being he was 21 years younger than me. yeah, there was some philosophical differences the older you get when there's that much of an age difference. And so it only took like six months to get him out of my house.

There was that. Then I went through this phase that I was sick and I wasn't sure what was going on. I was off balance, I was exhausted. was coming in from gardening one day and just blacked out. Don't remember coming in laying down on the couch. I remember deciding to come out of the garden and then waking up on the couch. Did a lot of testing and working with doctors and it was migraines. It's what they call silent migraines. Then I was working on getting

got that all under control. And then at my job, got a new boss. It was okay with my job. There's some conflicts, but for the most part, it was okay. Got a new boss who in the first 45 minutes he was there, referred to himself as an asshole nine times. And I was like, I'm getting a new job. There is nothing that's gonna make me stay here. So I started looking for a job and I was interviewing.

The company that I was really interested in, I was interviewing with, over the summer, it was a long process just because of people taking vacations and stuff. So I was in the middle of all of that process when I found the lump in my breast. And my grandmother had breast cancer and my mom had breast cancer. And it was just like, okay, I didn't do anything about it right away.

Joyce (04:07.656)
And my friends were like, just on me about it.

I didn't want to have to disclose it as I'm applying for a job. I wanted to just get into the job, have better insurance, have good short-term disability. You know, it sounds awful, but you got to take care of yourself. And so I didn't, you know, I told my friends about the lump, but was like, they're like, did you go to the doctor? It's like, no, it's just not going to be there until I'm in a place.

And then I got the job shortly after I found it, but I didn't start until the end of September. And I found it at the beginning of August. So I started the end of September and then you had to wait there 30 days before your insurance kicked in. So I was calling for day 31 to have a diagnostic mammogram because I wasn't going to waste time.

And of course they're like, your doctor has to order that for you. You can't just request one. So I just emailed my doctor because he's very cool and we work really well together. And he went ahead and put the order in for me. then I had that in the morning and then that afternoon I finally had an appointment with my doctor. So I saw my doctor after I had the mammogram. And after the mammogram, they also did an ultrasound.

and they said they were gonna need to schedule a biopsy. Now, with my family history, I assumed at some point in my life I was gonna get breast cancer. And so it was like, okay, so I haven't had any calm in my life, why now? So, I was going through it and in meantime, I'm new on my job and I'm like, okay, so I had to tell my boss what was going on and she was so supportive.

Joyce (06:08.476)
And she's like, whatever you need. Everyone was just so great about it. So I had the biopsy the week before Thanksgiving. And I got the results two days before Thanksgiving. And they called me. And they're like, it's now a good time to talk. I'm like, sure. Because in my mind, it was like, you're going to tell me I have breast cancer, and then we're going to deal with it.

Well, she told me I had cancer and the tears started to flow and I could not get them to stop. So I'm sitting at my desk, luckily the bathroom was really close by and I was like, go into the bathroom, pull myself together, go back to my desk, because all I wanted was to tell my boss I was going to go home and work from home the rest of the day. Just because I found out very quickly I was going to be a hot mess about it.

As much as I expected it, you just can't prepare to hear those words. So finally, after a couple hours, and she was in meetings, so it got very, you know, was back and forth, waiting for her. And finally she was going to another one. So I'm like, Kathy, she's like, what's wrong? And I'm trying to say that I'm gonna go home and work from home, and I got the results. And all that came out was, I don't understand you. And she kept saying, I can't understand you.

And finally I got it out clearly and she looked at me and she's like, you are not gonna go home and work for the rest of the day. She goes, you're gonna go home and deal with what you have to deal with. So like I said, wonderful boss. And it was an hour and a half drive home because I worked that far away at the time. And I cried the whole way and I got home and I told some people, was very weird because it was hard to tell anyone.

But by the end of the day, was like, okay, first step in being a breast cancer survivor, done. So it was just, I got the shock out of my system and then it was like, okay, I'm gonna be fine. Because it never occurred to me it could kill me.

Joyce (08:29.959)
For a couple of years, didn't occur to me that it could kill me. But it was just like, you know, I've got to go through this so it's going to be a positive thing. And so I actually had a double mastectomy because I had very, very large breasts at the time. And I always said that if I got breast cancer, it's going to get something smaller and more manageable. So I went ahead and did the double mastectomy with reconstructive. My surgery was the week before Christmas.

So all of this went along very quickly once I got to doctors, great doctors, they took care of it. And then I had my reconstructive surgery in that May. But in the meantime, I started taking Tamoxpon, is a maintenance drug for breast cancer. I was very lucky. So it was very small. I caught it very early.

but they had just started doing testing that now is standard to test it to see what treatments it's gonna react to. So because I was doing the double mastectomy, there was no need for radiation. And then for chemo, tamoxifen was gonna reduce my risk of reoccurrence in 10 years down to 15 or 16%. And adding chemo was only gonna drop it four more percent.

And to me, it wasn't worth it to go through what chemo does to you for a 4 % chance. yeah, so that was the initial how everything went. And it's been 10 years and I'm still cancer free. So it was the right decision. But yeah, it was a lot of chaos. like I said, got by the end of the day that they told me I was in a positive mindset.

Miriam Bulcher (10:28.324)
Now you have a unique situation where, you know, your grandmother and your mother had it. So you definitely had a little bit more like mental preparation than I think a lot of women are who might be like the first in their family or, you know, that they're aware of, right, that they might have experienced it. But it's really interesting the reaction that you had, right? Because, I mean, like you said, you just can't even though you think you have prepared, you really just cannot be.

prepared enough really, I think is what it comes down to for that kind of like, cause it is like, how do you feel like, I mean, again, you did an amazing job kind of like working through it, you know, in the minute to like get yourself to a place that, know, you had kind of like, okay, yeah, like now I'm, you know, a little bit more prepared, but how do you feel like those first, like those first moments, like at your desk and like crying on the way home, like what was that emotional process like? Was it just like,

my gosh, I now have this or, you know, like, I just want to know, like what you were feeling in those moments.

Joyce (11:31.01)
It's devastating. Even when you expect to hear it, it's just devastating because there is something in your body that is attacking you. And I did name the lump Fred. So I would refer to Fred all the time. It was like Fred had to be evicted. But it's just like I said, as much as I knew, it just it hits you. It hits you so hard. And I would never recommend being anywhere public.

at all to get, have someone give you the answer, whether it's going to be good or bad. You know, that was not the right thing to do.

Miriam Bulcher (12:10.736)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Joyce (12:12.513)
It's a gut punch.

Miriam Bulcher (12:15.632)
Yeah, it's like you want to protect your own emotional journey, I guess you could say, by like making sure that you're taking that news in a more respectful place for for you to just process it. Right. And that sounds like, you know, if we.

give any advice to those who, you know, of course, none of us ever want to be in that position, but I think it's good to be aware of like, you know, you're you're gonna hit a version of rock bottom when you get that news and rock bottom, both probably physically as well as mentally and emotionally. And it is going to take a minute, right? To like get yourself back to a place where you feel like, okay, I'm now going to be starting this journey and it is going to be a journey. And it's, you know, I had forgotten that you hadn't

done the chemo or the radiation. But I want to talk to you though, because when we met, it was kind of a really interesting time in your journey post mastectomy. So I want you to talk about that because I know that it was kind of a weird time, right? Like it was a weird time to kind of like, yes, you know, and I've heard that from a lot of women who have very large breasts, like, oh, I would love to get rid of these, right? But it's something else to get

not only even if a woman just downsizes in general, but just to have the trauma, you know, that you went through because it is more traumatic having all the breast tissue removed than to just write, have some of the fat removed if you're doing a, a reduction. So talk about what that process was like, like where were you at in those few weeks afterwards when you didn't have bandages or drains anymore and like you were actually, cause I think if I understand it correctly, you didn't get the implants in right away or

at the same time or did you?

Joyce (13:55.359)
So I had expanders in. So when I got all the tissue removed, I had expanders in. So that was next to nothing to begin with. And then I went in every week and they added more liquid to stretch it up. And the reason they do that for anyone that's wondering is so that your body can heal from the mastectomy and they want the skin to be stretched and taut.

Miriam Bulcher (13:59.708)
When you got the tissue removed, you had expanse. Okay. Got it.

Miriam Bulcher (14:11.24)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (14:24.23)
Hmm.

Joyce (14:24.889)
not leave where it might be excess for the implants to stretch into. And so what was really shocking is where all your breast tissue is. So your breast tissue goes all the way out. It's all the way up here. I mean, it's this high up. Where my nipples were down here, clear up at the collarbone. And it's like, and you do this and it's like bone.

Miriam Bulcher (14:29.606)
implant.

Miriam Bulcher (14:37.992)
Mmm.

Miriam Bulcher (14:42.182)
Mm-hmm. Like to the collarbone area.

Miriam Bulcher (14:49.242)
Yeah, right.

Joyce (14:54.518)
I did this all the time for the first year. was constantly just feeling where there is, it's just bone and muscle. And it's still that way. And so it was shocking. And you think, okay, so I'm gonna, get the implants. So I'll have like the Hollywood boob look. But it's not like that.

Miriam Bulcher (14:57.389)
Mmm, like just feeling your chest area.

Miriam Bulcher (15:04.614)
bright.

Joyce (15:24.052)
it's different because those are people who still have breast tissue in there. And so it's a different look. And I have to, you know, after I got used to it, have to credit my plastic surgeon, he made it look very natural. And so, but I was, I was thrilled with the size of them. It was like, you don't have to wear a bra unless I want to, I still don't have to wear a bra unless I want to. And that's one of the big joys in my life.

Miriam Bulcher (15:37.03)
Mm-hmm

Joyce (15:53.787)
But when they do a double mastectomy, they have to take the nipple. It's part of all the hormonal part that has to go away. So I had what I referred to as mannequin boobs, because there was just the boobs. For me, my scar tissue, my scars don't, you can hardly see them. I just don't scar badly, so.

Miriam Bulcher (16:00.348)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (16:21.882)
Everyone's always been amazed how little my scars show. But I had these mannequin boobs and so it didn't feel feminine for me. I was very disconnected from them and it was very strange to feel like that. the two options you have if you want to have nipples are to have, they can do a surgery and all of this when you have

Miriam Bulcher (16:32.262)
Mmm.

Joyce (16:51.138)
All of this is included in the breast cancer treatment. It's all part of it. But they can do simulate a nipple, but then they simulate it semi erect. It's like, well, then I would still have to wear a bra. You kidding? So I opted for the tattoos, which was amazing. And you also don't have any feelings. So it was the easiest of all my tattoos because I couldn't feel it at all.

Miriam Bulcher (17:03.89)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (17:21.497)
I had an immediate response to seeing them, because they're very 3D. Mariam's seen them because she's been photographing. They look real. I mean, they look...

Miriam Bulcher (17:28.904)
You

Miriam Bulcher (17:34.236)
Yeah, no, I remember being really impressed. was at yeah, I mean, for those that don't know, Joyce has done many, many photo shoots almost every time at some point has included her in lingerie, which is great. And we love that. And there's like, it's amazing. But just for listeners who might be like, how come Miriam has seen her nipples? That's weird.

And if anybody, anybody who's listening to this who has been in my studio just knows that like, yeah, at some point, you know, it's like, and it's a safe space. So it's like awesome. But I do remember being like, because at first I was like, you know, because there isn't that like three dimensional aspect kind of like you have to look really look closely to be like, wait, there's no like, you know, outer kind of like dimension. the fact

I didn't recognize that in the very beginning is mad impressive on the tattoo artist because I was like, oh yeah, like, you know, nice areolas like, you know what I'm saying? Like she did such a good job in or here she or whoever did such a good job. Yeah, to like really. And I mean, even the color choice, very impressive because it looks so natural to like your own skin tone and everything. So because I do remember you when you came in.

Joyce (18:22.6)
amazing.

Miriam Bulcher (18:45.192)
Cause how long you came in in 2020, how was it 2020? Yeah, it was 2020, I think.

Joyce (18:51.126)
So it was like five years out.

Miriam Bulcher (18:54.088)
Okay, so it was five years. No, but when did you have the tattooing done?

Joyce (18:56.13)
Well, when I got the image. When did I?

That's a very good question.

Miriam Bulcher (19:03.974)
Like a few years, a year or two after or like?

Joyce (19:07.211)
I think it was just a year or two. Yeah, two or three. It wasn't immediate, but it wasn't too far out.

Miriam Bulcher (19:17.116)
Sure. Okay. Well, let's talk about, I mean, I you just described, right? Like you had disassociated from your body. I want you to tell me more about what that process was like, because, you you're a very, like, you enjoy all the things associated, you know, with like enjoying your body. And so how does one, cause I mean, at least for me,

Joyce (19:18.807)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (19:39.386)
my breasts are kind of critical, like in terms of like being able to have an orgasm and I'll be totally honest in that respect, you know, like, I mean, do I need them for that? No, but they really help speed the process. So I can only imagine, you know, losing that part of me, it would kind of be like, wait, like, what am I?

it would be really hard to know that you don't have access to that anymore. And so what does that conversation look like? What did it look like for you knowing that, you know what I mean? Like, yes, you have something, but like your body doesn't respond the same as it did prior. You know what I'm saying?

Joyce (20:18.484)
Right. So it was fake. It's the first time I had sex afterwards. know, it was like it was with an ex. So, you know, a little easier to talk about. But, you know, he was he was going there and it was like, I don't have any sensation. So he was like, OK. And perfectly fine with OK, then we'll just skip all that. And it was like, OK. And, know, you don't have a choice, but to just deal and accept it.

Miriam Bulcher (20:47.89)
Hmm.

Joyce (20:47.904)
But then I think about, you know I'm such a silver linings girl. So then I think about, ooh, it can get as cold as it wants. And I'm not gonna have razor sharp nipples. Because it does hurt when it gets really cold. Now I just get cold because the implants get cold because they don't have any flesh around them. That's a whole different thing. But yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (21:10.276)
Mm-mm. Yeah.

Yep.

Joyce (21:16.531)
And it is part of your femininity. And so, you know, I was doing better with having the tattoos, but then when I did the first photo shoot, that helped me so much with really regaining my femininity and my liking my body again.

Miriam Bulcher (21:38.406)
Would you say that prior to the photo shoot? Like, do you feel like it was a pretty ongoing, like, I don't want to say fight, but kind of like struggle? Like, did you find it hard, like when you looked in the mirror or like when you put on certain clothing, like, did you feel like you had to work harder to kind of see yourself as being like, I'm not, I'm still a human and I'm still very feminine and like all that stuff.

Joyce (21:47.669)
Yeah.

Joyce (22:02.481)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. And it's funny because even though I have these great boobs for a long time, I avoided anything low cut.

Miriam Bulcher (22:12.712)
Really?

Joyce (22:13.671)
Yeah. Yeah, I didn't want it. didn't. Because I hadn't really like fully accepted them. I didn't want to any attention to them. Which is just silly because they're pretty cool. I can say that now.

Miriam Bulcher (22:15.302)
Why? Why was that?

Miriam Bulcher (22:21.81)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (22:29.92)
Yeah. Yeah, you can say that now, absolutely. But at the time it was like, oh, my body has changed. And and like you said, it kind of goes back to that whole like, you you're never really fully prepared. And I feel like that's probably an extension of it, right? To be able to be like, oh, wait, I didn't voluntarily make this decision. I'm just trying to make the best out of a situation that I fell into that was inevitable to a certain extent. So do you feel like it?

Joyce (22:53.618)
Yeah, it's like your body betrayed you.

Miriam Bulcher (22:56.934)
Yeah, absolutely. Which is really hard to navigate when you're going through something like that. Do you feel that it took getting to the photo shoot for you to be like, I can actually voluntarily accept my body the way it is now?

Joyce (22:58.418)
You know.

Joyce (23:17.254)
Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't just the breast. It was also the most I have loved my body being heavier.

Miriam Bulcher (23:26.854)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Joyce (23:28.274)
Because I got to see me through your eyes. And that is such a gift that you give women that, you know, I can't say enough about it. It really, it really does change things. You know, it changes things for women. I do want to say, you know, mine was genetic. I did the testing. I had to push a little bit to get the testing because my mom and my grandmother were older and the genetic

Miriam Bulcher (23:38.396)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (23:42.151)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Joyce (23:57.009)
counselor that I talked to, she was like, I just know these are going to come back negative, but well, they did the full range and partially because my sister had colon cancer. So it came back positive and all she could do is just, she spent like 10 minutes apologizing to me because it did come back positive. And I'm very grateful that I did it because it is the defect I have is linked to ovarian cancer and pancreatic cancer.

So had my ovaries removed and I now have annual screenings for pancreatic cancer because now I'm high risk. I'm known to be high risk. And so it was like, I had to advocate for myself. But one thing I will say is a lot of women, I go to retreats for women with breast cancer, who have had breast cancer or have breast cancer. And so many of them are like, but nobody in my family's ever had this. I don't know what I did. Why did it happen to me?

Miriam Bulcher (24:32.584)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (24:56.624)
The percentage of people who have a genetic disposition to it is extremely small. Most women, there is no family history. There is no, and it's nothing anyone has ever done that is that it's just, it's something that happens to you. It's not something that you do to yourself. So it's not bad in there.

Miriam Bulcher (25:04.562)
Hmm, hmm, hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (25:18.76)
Mm hmm. Which is a really. Yeah, no, and I know that you've, you know, talked a little bit about that, about, you know, helping those women who do go to those retreats, because it is just so, so difficult to be able to read, because I mean, I feel like it, I feel like if I were to go through it, would be more.

or just as equally mental and emotional as it would be physical, right? And to go through that physical pain and the physical changes and just all the things that come with cancer. So to be able to help women with that mindset, I feel like it's a huge, mean, it's such a gift that you are able to help women out in that area because it is extra, I mean, it's challenging even without cancer, let's be completely real because to be a woman in today's society and to, you know, just have the expectations forced upon us when we don't even want them to be forced upon us and we can't avoid them, right?

And to be a woman whose body has changed or maybe is changing because of any other sort of condition, whether it's autoimmune or whatever, you know, like it really doesn't matter, but it is so hard to navigate. And then to have that also like as a huge wrench to be like, hi, I'm going to take over your life and you're already struggling. You know, it feel like it pushes you to a point that

It does feel like a breaking point. feel like, especially for the women that I've talked to, you know, in addition to yourself that have needed to undergo, you know what I mean? Like.

Joyce (26:42.904)
Yeah, it is so much and so much pressure. And then for me, I had just started my job and it was like, but it was all the right decision. were absolutely supportive. The entire company was supportive with me taking the time that I take as much time as you need to recover from your surgeries. And it was, and it really was good. It was, I probably should have taken more time than I did because I felt so guilty.

about it, but you know, live and learn. yeah, and I live by myself, I'm an independent woman, so I had to rely on people twice. I had to rely on people to take care of me. And that was really hard. And I would do it in a heartbeat for any of my friends. But I had to learn to let my friends do that for me.

Miriam Bulcher (27:40.242)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (27:41.325)
And the other thing I did was when I actually went in for the biopsy at that point, a friend was an advocate for me. And she took notes. She went to every doctor's appointment and she took notes down. Because you don't remember what you're told. Your brain just can't take it.

Miriam Bulcher (27:58.92)
Mm hmm. So it like you go into a state of disassociation because it's like, oh my gosh, it's so much information. Am I really going through this right now? It's like you kind of step into that emotional turmoil and then you can't really fully be present. So that's a really, really brilliant thing to be able to have someone there with you to like take detailed notes.

Joyce (28:17.995)
Yeah. And then it was Vinnie because when we went in for the mastectomy and the plastic surgeon came in, of he's drawing all over me. She just quizzed him. So how many of these surgeries have you done? How long have you been? I wasn't expecting her to do that. And he wasn't either. But it really was important. Yeah, because I wouldn't have remembered half of it. If I didn't write it down, I couldn't tell you what type I had.

Miriam Bulcher (28:44.135)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (28:48.062)
And it's all weird numbers, letters, types. It's written in a book. And I it.

Miriam Bulcher (28:51.942)
Yep. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about that very first photo shoot because I have distinct memories of you kind of like pointing things out, right? Like I remember being like, OK, you know, I really want to emphasize like this tattoo and whatnot. But I do remember when it came to.

pieces of clothing that you were wearing that were kind of associated with the breast area. I remember you very distinctly being like, okay, well, I kind of don't really want to see this. And I, you know, don't really want to see that emphasized and that sort of thing. Talk about that because I know that, I mean, even since I've known you, which has been five years, you've come like, so, you know what I mean? I feel like it is so different now from that very first initial photo shoot, but I want you to talk about it because I feel like it's very, it's one thing to kind of go through it. And then it's another thing to like,

You know, I really do feel like you opened yourself up in the process afterwards, but like, were you scared? Like, were you, you know, because I know that there was that section like closer to your armpit that you were like, okay, I really, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to emphasize that. I don't want to say, I know you're rolling your eyes now, but I do really remember you being, yeah.

Joyce (29:59.978)
No, it's because I remember it too. And it's because of where the tissue gets taken away. So one of the things was the divot, because I had a I shouldn't say I had, I have a little divot right above one of the implants that, yeah. And Maryam learned to tell me to start to relax my shoulder because if I tense it up, it really shows in the photographs. And then you don't lose...

Miriam Bulcher (30:09.01)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (30:28.416)
right at the end arm so you can get a little pudge there and then it goes to nothing. to me that little pudge really showed. Now I could care less about that little pudge. I know it's in it. I've got lymph nodes in there and those are a good thing. but it was, was like, yeah, I don't want that divot to really show and the little pudge and.

Miriam Bulcher (30:32.572)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (30:55.211)
And on the sides it's a little weird, but...

But when I look back and look at those photos and even before I did other photo shoots, to see myself look good like that, it's like, well, that is okay. And it's part of my body. I can't go back and not have the cancer. And there's not like a surgery to make those changes. I mean, I guess if you got someone really obsessive, you can.

Miriam Bulcher (31:14.376)
Mm.

Joyce (31:29.321)
Like I could have the divot filled in with that, but this is what I am now and I'm okay with it. And I also hate having surgery. It's not a fun time. And then to do two within six months is really not a fun time. So yeah, so it was like, but being able to look at those and I looked at those, well, I still look at all my pictures all the time, but

Miriam Bulcher (31:31.868)
Mmm.

Miriam Bulcher (31:36.466)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (31:39.791)
Mm-hmm.

great.

Miriam Bulcher (31:47.972)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (31:58.251)
I also have half of them on the wall. I looked at them a lot and I showed a lot of people because I was very proud of them when I had that. I mean, it really opened my eyes to myself.

Miriam Bulcher (32:11.012)
Mm hmm. Yeah. It's like you were able to almost like borrow my vision and then be like, my gosh, I can take my power back by like kind of, you know, it was. And I mean, that's how I see it. It was like a very temporary, kind of like you were able to borrow it and then you turned it into your own foundation. And then now it's like, it's OK. It'll keep going.

Joyce (32:29.777)
it froze.

Miriam Bulcher (32:57.17)
There go, you're back. Yep. It's all good, it'll get removed. So what I was saying is it's like you were able to, my gosh, Joyce.

Joyce (32:58.133)
Okay, I'm back. Technical difficulties.

Joyce (33:06.219)
Did we freeze again?

Joyce (34:40.007)
to hack my internet when it wants to be funky.

Miriam Bulcher (34:40.552)
Okay, back on track. It's all good because my editor will just remove those segments. Okay, so because from my perspective, it really looked like you were able to kind of borrow my vision, but then take it as your own. I mean, especially if you can look at it from from, you know, where you're at now, it's like you really built on it and you were able to be like, my gosh, if somebody else can see me this way, then what does it mean for me to see me that way and then to even fall in love with myself even more? Because I mean,

Let's be real, like, you know, as your body changes, it's always a fight to be able to love yourself and all the different parts and all the different changes. And then by the time you get to that point, something else changes and then you have to start that process all over again. So and I mean, even you, you've described that right? Like you've lost weight, you know, since the since the breast cancer and then with the ovarian, your ovaries being taken out, then it was like, oh, that was a whole other hormone shift. And then, you know, body changes again. Right. Like, I mean, it's like this constant navigation. So

Do you feel like there's any?

Joyce (35:38.778)
of being a woman. Part of being a woman. It just happens to everyone in different ways.

Miriam Bulcher (35:44.306)
Do you feel like there's anything that's kind of helped you through those changes? Like any mindset things that you're able to tell yourself that's like, okay, well, this is okay.

Joyce (35:58.066)
Well, especially since that photo shoot, I just accept myself. This is what I am. And different things are going to be thrown at you at different times in your life. And it's like, got to just do the best with them and then make the best of life and be forgiving of yourself, especially for the things that are out of your control. As women, we're not good at that. Things that are out of our control, we take ownership of.

Miriam Bulcher (36:15.794)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (36:28.11)
Absolutely. Yeah, sadly, 100%. Do you feel like your experience of the breast cancer would have been any different if you had experienced it younger or older?

Joyce (36:28.243)
tablet.

Joyce (36:42.022)
No, except for I probably could have gotten the genetic testing if I was younger without as much of a push from me on it.

Miriam Bulcher (36:51.558)
Okay, what difference does that make if you're taking it when you're younger versus when you're older?

Joyce (36:57.637)
What the test say? it's just I would have been able to. wouldn't have had to fight because it was because I was older and both my mom and my grandmother were older that they pushed back. Yeah. And for me, for a lot of women, it is different when they're diagnosed before they're 40 because it's like still in childbearing years, still, you know, so it ends up being very different for me.

Miriam Bulcher (36:58.578)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (37:06.008)
Mm, okay. Right.

Miriam Bulcher (37:20.035)
and

Joyce (37:26.779)
because of physical issues, I couldn't have kids anyway. it was, know, that wouldn't have played in for me.

Miriam Bulcher (37:36.198)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (37:37.894)
But I don't know if I hadn't gone through everything I went through the couple of years before. don't know if it would have been different. Yeah. And there's something about turning 50 that you just kind of gives you the, don't give a fucks anymore. And, you know, and you become the priority, which, you know, part of that was me, why I broke up with my ex-boyfriend. I was prioritizing me and what I wanted and

Miriam Bulcher (37:46.556)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Miriam Bulcher (37:53.776)
Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (38:03.26)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (38:07.93)
didn't want to compromise anymore.

Miriam Bulcher (38:09.766)
Mm-hmm, absolutely. And I love that. What would you recommend to other women who are either have had someone in their family who's gone through breast cancer or any really sort of cancer? Is there any advice that you would give to them not only helping other people in their life who may be going through cancer or like, I guess, are there any guidelines in terms of recommendations for that sort of genetic testing? You know what I mean? Like, are there any recommendations in terms of like?

you know, if you do have to push for it and say the women listening are like, you know what, you know, someone, a female, my aunt or something has had something like, maybe I should go do it. You know what I mean? Like are they, do you have any tips or advice for women who might want to do that?

Joyce (38:55.199)
Okay, so to begin with, find a healthcare provider you really like and respect and that you can get along with because they will help you push for it. And just, you know, they may have the conversation like they did with me and push back someone. It's like, no, I want this. And they're, you know, they're always like, are you sure? And your insurance might not cover it. it's like, I want this. If you want it, get it done. And when they do it, they do full testing. So it's not just like,

Miriam Bulcher (39:00.018)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (39:16.786)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (39:23.126)
It wasn't just breast cancer that I was going to be tested for. if you have any kind of anomaly, they keep those results. And then as science goes on and they find out other cancers are related to that defect, then they will inform you, which is wonderful. And so it really is good information. One of my big drivers for having the genetic testing was I have seven nieces and nephews.

Miriam Bulcher (39:24.892)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (39:42.45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (39:52.36)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (39:53.051)
And my defects, so most of the genetic breast cancer defects are the BRCA's that you hear about. Mine's called PALB2. It actually is one of the defects that shows up genetically for male breast cancer as well. So I really wanted my whole family to know so they could make the choice. Really not happy how few of them have done the testing, but you know, it's...

Miriam Bulcher (40:10.312)
Mmm.

Joyce (40:23.13)
But that's, it's their choice. And it's, I don't know what it would feel like to get that result without having had the cancer. So I have to respect them for that. But, but they're the reason that I did it is because I wanted, you know, it's the more, knowledge is power. And so the more, the more that you know, you can help your doctors with that.

Miriam Bulcher (40:32.679)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (40:38.024)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (40:50.072)
Mm Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about what your process was like feeling your breasts and kind of doing that, you know, manual exam, because I think all women, you know, it's I feel like different women have different processes and it's like always good. And how often did you do it? Like, I really want to know more about that process, because, you know, even if there are younger women listening to this podcast, it's like something you can never start early enough. Right. Or maybe, you know, women who are in, you know, the over 50 age demographic have like.

know, slack-off, which let's be real, that's probably a real absolute thing, but it is something that we all, you know, all of us women have to be adamant and kind of proactive about. tell us about what your process was like and how often you did it.

Joyce (41:30.154)
Once a month, first of the month. That way I can remember. And I still do it because I couldn't have a reoccurrence happen. And when you are doing your own exam, you know what your body feels like. So you can recognize a lump more than anybody else is going to. But you got to do your underarms. I now know you've got to go all the way up to your collarbone. And even if they're big, you lift them up and you squish around.

Miriam Bulcher (41:32.189)
Bye bye.

Miriam Bulcher (41:43.516)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (41:48.552)
Sure.

Joyce (42:00.546)
Go in a circular and find it all. Yeah, just get to know your body. Then you know when it's changed. And look at it, because it can be, for some people, it's a physical appearance change where they can detect it.

Miriam Bulcher (42:08.208)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (42:12.993)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Miriam Bulcher (42:19.986)
Hmm.

Okay, that's really, that's really interesting. Okay. Yeah, I've never heard that aspect before of I heard a really interesting statistic the other day that it wasn't a statistic. It was someone saying that the percentage of people that get mammograms are actually the percentage that don't often end up like it's the percentage of people that do mammograms are the lowest percentage of women who go through breast cancer. And I was like, Oh, what?

Like that sounds absolutely insane. And I wonder if it has to do with that proactivity, I guess we'll just call it. Like it's almost like if you're more proactive, you're less inclined to be in that percentage. So now I'm really curious about like, okay, you know, the percentage of women, I mean, it sounds like you were really proactive, which is amazing. Do you feel like, at what point before you found the lump, had you had your last mammogram?

Joyce (43:13.748)
A year. I did it every year. I did my mammograms annually. Yeah. So as much as pleasant as they are, I did them annually. There's a lot of women who are scared of the knowledge, who are scared to know. And they're not pleasant. mean, they squish you. And I've talked to friends of mine who have really small boobs, and I don't even know how they do it.

Miriam Bulcher (43:14.758)
Okay.

Miriam Bulcher (43:22.311)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (43:32.742)
Hmm, sure.

Miriam Bulcher (43:42.382)
yeah, right.

Joyce (43:43.582)
I can't even imagine. But there is a push across the United States to get some legislation changed so that a lot of women, and I think some of these women give up on their mammograms because they have dense breast tissue. They have dense breast tissue. So it's hard to detect. And there is a push for them to be able to get MRIs in their, yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (43:59.962)
Hmm

Miriam Bulcher (44:04.22)
Hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (44:09.052)
I was just gonna say, yeah, because I've heard of, because I remember, well, because I have implants and I remember asking, I was like, I don't wanna do a mammogram, because then there's too much risk of the implant getting damaged. And so, yeah, exactly. So I remember, and I did a bunch of research before I had the implants, because I was like, okay, what are my options, right? Because I'm not gonna risk that under any circumstances. And then...

That's where the doctor was like, you can literally go to like any MRI clinic and like just schedule your own MRI. And I was like, actually, you know what? That would probably be really helpful for a bunch of other things too. Like just to have those like kind of like routine results to see what's there. But I recently at a networking event I was at last week, there was a lady there talking about it's a system that they use to target the bad tissue that doesn't affect the other tissue around it. And she like runs that company and she was saying that

She has the BRCAO gene and, but she only did that test because her niece had cancer, breast cancer at 30. And, but the thing is, is like, she did the BRCAO test and then she fought for an MRI because she was, she was like, what do they say that? Like no symptoms, like absolutely nothing. And they didn't want to give it to her. And she was like, well, no, I'm just willing to pay for it out of my own pocket. And they found something through the MRI. It was really small.

So she was able to be proactive and get it taken care of. And so now she's kind of included that into her routine five year, you know what I mean? Kind of because MRIs are not cheap. But I was like, that is so genius. I mean, I'm kind of at my time limit because it's been five years since I've had my implants. And I'm like, OK, it's going to be time in the next 12 months to get an MRI scheduled because I'm not going to take any risks regardless. But I've

love that you've brought that up because especially there are just certain things that like a mammogram is not going to be able to pick up depending on you know your size whether it's dense breast tissue or just small breasts in general.

Joyce (45:58.014)
Yeah, no, they are pushing to try and get all of the states to have a legislation to force insurance to cover it.

Miriam Bulcher (46:03.176)
Mm hmm. Yeah, no, that makes perfect, perfect sense. Right. You just lay on a table and like, boop versus like going through being squeezed to death. OK, do you have any advice to other women who are scared of the knowledge? How do you how do you recommend someone work through that discomfort of being like, I know I need it?

Joyce (46:08.965)
And so much easier! Good lord.

Miriam Bulcher (46:32.966)
I know I should probably learn more about it, but I just don't want to. You know what I mean? Like how do you initiate that conversation with yourself?

Joyce (47:05.446)
There we are.

Miriam Bulcher (47:06.162)
There we go, back again. Did you hear everything I said?

Joyce (47:09.683)
Yeah, enough that I know my response. So knowledge is power. You got to know. And it can be scary, but I will tell you with the retreats that I'm volunteering at now, they're retreats for women with metastatic breast cancer. So these are women, a lot of those women, their first diagnosis of their breast cancer was not in their breasts. It was in like their brain.

their bones. It's after it has spread so far that they can't cure it. They can treat it and they can still have a long productive life. like one of them, it just had constant pain in her hip. And finally they went in and there was a tumor and they tested it. was breast cancer. And now she didn't have any lumps in her breast, that's, but it was in their body, in her body. And so

Ignoring it and not not paying attention and not doing that maintenance checking. I hate to say it, but it can kill you.

trying if you stay ignorant.

Because if you end up having it and you don't find out, it will spread eventually.

Miriam Bulcher (48:36.008)
Mm hmm. Yeah, which is really, I mean, that's a really great example of just how important it is to be aware of your body. Right. And to honor it and to pay attention, because I know I had a client who was also a breast cancer survivor, and she was saying that, you know, she attributes it to like just the really high stress lifestyle that she had. And it took for her to get cancer to be like, my freaking goodness. Like, I cannot live like this if I want to be able to enjoy.

the rest of my life and to be able to potentially see grandkids or see my kids get married or whatnot. And so it's like, geez, I mean, sometimes it feels so shocking to be able to be like, no, no, you really do have to pay attention to your body and how your body is responding to life styles and that sort of thing. And it's like, it feels annoying because it is annoying. But the fact of the matter is that our bodies are incredible tools and they do their best as they can to guide us through all the insanity we put them through.

But it's like we still owe it a responsibility to pay attention and to try and treat it with as much health and respect as we possibly can.

Joyce (49:43.921)
Yeah, early detection is the best prevention, you know, is just to know, just, and I was put in the plug, just like colonoscopies, really important, because if you have regular colonoscopies, you will never have colon cancer.

Miriam Bulcher (49:47.464)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (49:55.772)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (49:59.112)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joyce (50:01.202)
because they take out the polyps that grow into it. you know, there are things, you know, when you're proactive with your health, you can prevent a lot of illness.

Miriam Bulcher (50:11.464)
Mm-hmm, absolutely. Do you feel like there's any final words of advice that you feel like are just really important to women who are, you know, either dealing with friends that have cancer or just like on this proactive journey on themselves, you know, themselves?

Joyce (50:27.091)
Don't be afraid. be that, you know, if you have family or friends that are going through it, make yourself available to them. Don't push yourself on them, but make sure you're there. Make sure they have someone advocating for them, you know, and if you can volunteer for it, if they don't, it really, like I said, there's so much I have no recall on from appointments.

Miriam Bulcher (50:46.439)
Mm.

Miriam Bulcher (50:52.508)
Yeah.

Joyce (50:54.666)
And don't be afraid to advocate for yourself. And that's for any health thing. If you have a gut feeling, our gut tells us a lot. Our gut feelings are important. Push, push your doctor. And any testing, anything you have that feeling about, make sure you get it clear and know what's going on.

Miriam Bulcher (51:20.422)
Mm-hmm.

Joyce (51:21.01)
Like you said, our bodies tell us a lot of things. get to know, pay attention to your body. Pay attention where you have regular aches and pains, where you have, where things feel, how regular you are, so that when something changes, you're aware of.

Miriam Bulcher (51:35.56)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. No, I love that so much. And I really appreciate you sharing a lot about your journey because I know it's something that, you know, it's not exactly enjoyable, but I feel like and you've always been super open and I love that. And that's why I was like, I'm starting this podcast. You're going to be on it. And she's like, OK.

Joyce (51:56.272)
Sure.

Miriam Bulcher (51:57.8)
Awesome, we'll ice.

Joyce (51:58.929)
before you said what topic it was gonna even be. It's like, never do that.

Miriam Bulcher (52:01.51)
Yep, exactly. Yep, absolutely. I love it so much. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you and thank you so much for sharing.

Joyce (52:10.013)
and thank you for doing these podcasts. think this is great for women to be able to see all of your topics.

Miriam Bulcher (52:15.88)
Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. OK. We can still chat. I'm just going to stop.