#11 From Grief to Grace: Finding Love Again with Janelle Rice

In this episode, Miriam Bulcher interviews Janelle Rice, who shares her transformative journey from grief to love after losing her husband. Janelle discusses her experiences with online dating, the challenges of finding compatibility, and the evolution of her relationship with her now-husband. She emphasizes the importance of self-discovery, communication, and navigating the complexities of merging lives after loss. Janelle's story is one of empowerment, resilience, and the joy of finding love again at 66. In this conversation, Janell Rice shares her insights on prioritizing joy in relationships, navigating emotional transitions after loss, and the importance of self-work in finding love again. She emphasizes the need for daily practices of gratitude and joy, the significance of vulnerability, and the necessity of valuing oneself in relationships. Janell also discusses the challenges of dating and the importance of light conversations, as well as the proactive approach needed to maintain a healthy relationship.

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Transcript

Miriam Bulcher (00:01.115)
Welcome to today's episode of Empowered Over 50. So I reached out to my client, Janelle, who her and I met about, let's see now, two, no, yep, no, 24. I had to think about that for a second. So Janelle is absolutely amazing. She came back to me after her photo shoot to do a one-on-one makeup lesson. And this is kind of where she gave me the lowdown of what had happened since her...

like since the initial photo shoot, which I think was like the beginning of 24, right? I think. Pretty sure.

Janell Rice (00:33.112)
We were, yeah, technically I think we were late in 23 maybe even.

Miriam Bulcher (00:36.871)
Like January or February. Okay, yeah, that's right, that's right. I think it might have been, yeah, I think you're right. The memory gets fuzzy. So Janelle is retired. She is recently married and she's 66 and she is literally so incredible. And the reason I reached out to her is because her timeline and her story from like when I initially photographed her.

to then what happened, because I feel like it wasn't that long. Maybe it was at like a few months. And then all of a sudden it was like, whoa, Janelle's life has done like a 180, which was like, and it was all really, really amazing things. And that's why I wanted to bring her on today to talk about, you know, getting into the dating world and finding success with love and getting married and all this incredible stuff. So that's just like a little snippet of what we're going to get into. But so Janelle, tell me about where you were at.

emotionally, just like with yourself, when we met and when we talked on the phone and when we got into your photo shoot.

Janell Rice (01:38.702)
Yeah, so on the initial photo shoot, gosh, a little bit over six months before that, my partner and my husband of 22 years had passed away. He had cancer, and so there was a long period of time where I was a caregiver for him, kind of, you know, then going on through that grieving process.

And at some point, I decided that I wanted to try to re-energize my...

my life and how I saw myself and how I felt about myself and I also happened to be turning 65 about that same time and so this was my birthday present to myself and turning 65 is to say okay you know how can I not feel how can I not look like I feel right now and I came to see you and it was just fun and then right around that same time I started thinking

I don't know if I'm ready to date yet. And what I concluded is two things. The first is I wasn't going to know until I got in there and just kind of threw myself right into the deep end of the pool. And I decided that if it wasn't right, I could always pull away from the site. I could always say no, thank you and shut that down. I'm not quite ready.

But what I ended up doing is taking the pictures, a couple of the pictures that came out of our session, and put them up on a website that was specifically focused on seniors. And so you were at least 60 to be on this site. And I had one selfie and two of the photos and just did a pretty basic write up. And fairly quickly.

Janell Rice (03:32.182)
I got responses, and know, probably the new person on the site, right? And pretty quickly you go through those things and say, maybe, no. It's pretty clear, right?

So I went through and started conversations with a handful of people. Fairly quickly, I would say I had done a, tried to do a little bit of homework and get a sense of also, you know, what were they interested in and ended up ultimately getting, before I decided to go off the site, 303 men.

approached me from that site and I think I shared that number with you mostly because I thought

That's nuts. I mean, I certainly don't see myself as any kind of special prize. And so to have 303 men hit me, I decided probably had more to do with the pictures than anything else. So somewhere along the way, I ended up kind of getting to a short list. And that's kind of the beginning of the whole dating thing, right? And kind of figuring out that again. And, you know, the peculiar moments of kissing some

new after 20 some odd years so so yeah that's kind of a long overview about how we got to be here.

Miriam Bulcher (05:00.595)
I love that so much. And I'm really glad I wondered if you were going to mention the number because I just remember. Because I think somehow we talked on the phone and I think my jaw hung open for like.

Janell Rice (05:10.69)
Hahaha

Miriam Bulcher (05:12.977)
a solid minute because I was dumbfounded at the 300. And I remember you said it happened so quickly, because I think you sent me a text message and you were like, you're not going to believe this. And I was like, what? That is absolutely insane. Absolutely nuts. So let's talk about the meeting process of meeting, like you said, right? Like, yes, there's the awkward moments of kissing somebody new. But how many dates did you go through before you met?

Janell Rice (05:28.419)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (05:42.873)
you're the one, I guess we'll call it. And what was it like in your mind? Like as you were going through these, you conversations or like, you know, assessing yes, no and messages or whatever it might have been, what was it like in your mind in terms of like, that's just, that's not gonna work. Or, you know, how did you identify like, well, these are what my needs are and they're non-negotiable.

Janell Rice (06:10.006)
Yeah, so my approach was a little bit different in the conversation with them.

So first of all, you kind of go through a series of little texts through the site just to say, hey, are we each interested? And I found that some people kind of knew how to navigate that. Most of them didn't. And just like I tried to do a nice job working with you on my pictures and saying this is who I am, most of the men did not do their homework there. And so I think it's important to be transparent when you go on these sites.

that it takes it takes some work on both ends. Then as crazy as it sounds, I decided to re-read some of the Venus and Mars series and for those that aren't familiar, it's a basic book that kind of talks about the difference between men and women because I'd had this shorthand of a life

with my previous husband, he and I kind of could finish each other's statements while I'm starting over. This is all brand new. These are different people that I'm talking to, and I need to remember that there's difference between men and women in how we communicate and what we're interested in. And so I did a little bit of homework there. So I'm like, OK. Then there was this, as part of that, I tried to freshen up my.

my image and how I felt about myself. So little things like the makeup lessons that we did. I changed my haircut to be a little bit more youthful and ultimately did my homework first before I showed up in the dating world. Once I got in there, then it was really, there were several conversations and I could just, you know, I think when you get to be our age, one of the beauties is that you have good instincts about things just because of life.

Janell Rice (08:08.034)
But really what I was there for was just to learn a little bit more about them and, who are you and do you have grandkids and are you still working and not to really kind of immediately pursue the dating thing. I wanted the conversation to warm up to get to know them a little bit, you know, what were they interested in? Were we able to have a conversation?

And so I didn't really get into anything deep in the first conversation or two. I wanted to walk out of there and just say, how does it feel? I had a handful of those. And at a certain point, you can tell pretty quickly, like I told my now husband, if it's a no, let's get to the no quickly.

Because there could be some things were just not a good fit. And I might think that you're a great human being, but I'm just not interested in pursuing a relationship. I mean, if I just wanted to go to a movie or something like that, maybe. But.

I think if we trust our instincts, we've been on this earth a long time, long enough to have that life experience and to be able to know that we should listen to that. So yeah, that's kind of really where I started with him is a couple of texts and then I let him pursue.

because ultimately I felt like it's important for the man to tell you where he is at in this thing. And I can always say no, but I wanted him to take lead.

Janell Rice (09:52.974)
And so, you know, we would be on the phone. Eventually, we agreed that we would have a phone call. And we were on the phone for like an hour each of those times. And so I knew that we could really have solid, interesting conversations. And I could start to tell that we had, you know, some good compatibility. And then at a certain point, and I should back up here, it's interesting because when he originally approached me, he said he,

And he thought I was cute. But he was outside of Milwaukee. And so he's like, what about the distance? And I said, if you and I don't have chemistry, it doesn't matter.

We don't have to worry about the distance. It's just like great guy, move on. So we agreed that we would move forward. And I bring that up specifically because there always seems like there can be some things where you're like, mm, not sure about this, right? Maybe they have a pet. Maybe they have kids. Everybody has their own life circumstances that could be reasons to say, I'm not sure if this is the one. So pick those battles carefully.

And then, you know, then we got to the point where we were having a great conversation. And I happened to be flying out to Atlanta to see my sister for Christmas. And so I said to him, hey, I'm going to be there. Why don't we have, you know, a drink and just see if there's chemistry? Because all I had seen at that point was his pictures and all he had seen were mine. And so we agreed that we would just sit down and split a burger and, you know, have a little drink.

and see if there was good chemistry for both of us. So that's how he and I met the first time.

Miriam Bulcher (11:39.953)
So.

It really sounds like in your mind, you had a process, which is really amazing considering that you hadn't done online dating, right? Like prior, but you really did have like a, okay, let's see how the conversations go. Let the guy do, you know, a little bit of the initiation and pursuing. you talk about like how you were able to get to the nose quickly. Well, like what sort of questions were you asking to identify whether they were going to be like compatible intellectually or morally?

Janell Rice (12:13.068)
Yeah, great question on the morally, right? You know, I would just start up a light conversation with them and say, hey, it's great to meet you. And, you know, gosh, how long have you been doing this? And what's been your experience out here, right? And so it was really just kind of meant to be more lighthearted. And eventually they would tell you a little bit about who they were. Did they have kids? Did they have grandkids? You know, what were their interests? How long had they been single?

And I think what I tried to do was have a friendly presence about me. And so it just felt like a fun little conversation with somebody. I did not talk about their past relationships. I didn't talk about, you know, when they got divorced. I didn't bring up anything that was going to be difficult.

I think people just go into this and until you really get to know that person, sometimes it's hard to bring those important tough questions forward. And you kind of almost need to make sure that that human being is somebody that you could be interested in before you start asking those tough questions, right? But I mean, you absolutely need to do that, but it doesn't need to be on that first phone call.

Miriam Bulcher (13:35.771)
Hmm. Okay. No, that makes perfect sense. So what was it about your current husband that stood out from the rest that you were like, well, this is this is definitely like at what point was your gut like, yeah, this is probably heading in the right direction.

Janell Rice (13:55.563)
So first of all, he pursued me pretty aggressively. And he would send me texts, and he would flirt with me. And he knew I was at my sister's, so I said, I can't have any calls. I'm supposed to be there with my sister for Christmas. And so being on the phone with you for an hour three times a day is not going to happen. Candidly, I think it was beneficial in the long term because it built up a little bit of desire on both of our ends.

Yeah, I think... Hmm. Yeah. Pretty simple.

Miriam Bulcher (14:38.481)
So do you feel like it was pretty quickly then, like after you started? Because by the time you were at your sister's, you had already met in person, right? Because you met before you went to your sister's.

Janell Rice (14:48.268)
We literally met as I was getting on a plane.

Miriam Bulcher (14:53.047)
okay.

Janell Rice (14:53.914)
So I drove into Milwaukee, which is where he was. That's where my flight happened to be out of. And I said, I've got about an hour and a half to spare if, you know, if you want to get together. And so we sat down for an hour and a half. I knew he was very interested. He tried to get me to miss my flight to Atlanta to see my, my sister for Christmas. And I'm like, that's not happening. But he was pretty persistent about it. And then I had said to him, as I was kind of

saying I have got to go now or I'm gonna miss my plane. And by the way, I was running through the airport, so when I said I was gonna miss my plane, I wasn't, I was not kidding. I literally took my shoes off and ran through the airport. But I had said to him on my way out the door, you know, maybe we could get together when I get back.

And he was like, I'm taking the day off. We are spending the day together. So I knew he was interested at that point. However, you never really know. I mean, is this a player and they just come on strong or is there something serious there? And so, yeah, so that's kind of how we got to our second date and we wrapped up our first. was super clear to me again that he was interested in me. But was he interested in me or was he just smooth?

and that's what I was dealing with. So we had a little bit of work to figure that one out. So what was drawn to me, I mean, he's a really nice looking man, but he treated me so well and he was a good soul.

Miriam Bulcher (16:13.657)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (16:20.529)
Sure.

Janell Rice (16:36.162)
He's from Denver, so he's kind of got that Denver cool vibe to him. This thick, curly head of hair, silver, great, great head of hair, and smart.

and interesting and a good soul. And so that's what I learned as I was talking to him. Those are the things that I was trying to see. You who is this person behind this picture and could I really like him and could I really care about him? So and I think that's not from the things that I've read. I think men tend to fall more in love initially with their eyes. And I think women are looking for the right human being to be with for a long time.

So we have fundamentally different ways that we look.

for somebody to spend our time with. And I think that was one of the good reminders as I was reading Venus and Mars. There was another good reminder in there that when we start getting close to them, men will do epically stupid things when they start having feelings for you and they become afraid. And so that was another good reminder in Venus and Mars is to say, is he really?

saying no to me or is he thinking about getting serious and now he just doesn't even know what to do with himself.

Miriam Bulcher (18:02.917)
Mm-hmm.

Janell Rice (18:03.282)
So, you know, I wanted to kind of mention that one because if you ever gone out with somebody and you think, thought things were going well, and then they did something that you went, how could they do something so stupid like not call me for a week or whatever that is, pick up Venus and Mars again. It will remind you that this is not uncommon. It's not uncommon in the process.

Miriam Bulcher (18:23.875)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So at what point, because what month was it that you met again? Was it December?

Janell Rice (18:32.6)
We met two days before Christmas.

Miriam Bulcher (18:35.119)
Okay, so in December, so at what point in the process afterwards were you like, I know that this is the guy.

Janell Rice (18:43.342)
It took me a while. mean, he knew very quickly. And he was the first one to say, love you. And I remember thinking, I think this could be the guy. But until...

He demonstrates to me that he is interested in me as I am in him. I just need to make sure that I don't get too far ahead of this and then end up being the one that I think sometimes we want something, we think that we work hard for it, this and that, and the other thing that we can get it, right? Especially if you get to a certain point and you've been successful, it's because you've worked hard.

and you've gotten up and had purpose. Dating is not that way. So if he is not into me like I'm into him, it's not going to go anywhere. And so I needed to make sure that that was, for me, the focus was twofold. First of all is to say, as I get to know this person, is this the maybe? Am I still in a maybe moving towards a yes? But I needed to remember that.

I needed to do my homework so that and remember what he was looking for as well because if he's not in the same place I'm in we got nothing and vice versa right I mean I had I had a couple of guys that I think were pretty interested in me but I didn't give them the same

Miriam Bulcher (20:10.097)
Mm-hmm.

Janell Rice (20:19.424)
level of interest that I gave to Cameron. So that's the part I think about dating that's difficult is really knowing where that other person is coming from and with men it's fortunately pretty easy. mean if they don't continue to pursue you and have other conversations to let you know that they want to be there then

Miriam Bulcher (20:23.227)
Mm-hmm.

Janell Rice (20:44.748)
then they may not be ready themselves or they're not the right one. Either way, doesn't answer. The answer is still no.

Miriam Bulcher (20:53.231)
Yeah, absolutely. When did the relationship progress into, want this to be more permanent. Like, this is something, because let's jump back a little bit. Did you think that you were gonna get married again? Like, did you, or were you just like, I'm just gonna date and we'll see what happens. But like, it wasn't in your plan to get married again, or was it?

Janell Rice (21:20.608)
It was absolutely not in my plan to get married. It was the opposite of that. I have a really good life. I mean, I have great friends. I have a home that I love. I have a lot of support around me. And I didn't want to.

There were a lot of I didn't want tos. I didn't want to sell my home. I didn't want to move into somebody else's home. I didn't want to raise children again. I love my kids, but I didn't want to be in that space again. I didn't want to leave the area and leave my life. So there were lots of no thank yous. No was kind of part of my thing. And so what I ultimately concluded is that I was better off just to start dating and say, let's go have a

burger or see a movie and I was pretty clear that I didn't really have an interest in getting married. you know candidly, Fred

was my husband who passed away, was just an amazing guy. Absolutely amazing guy. And he and had a great relationship, but I thought I would not in a million years find that again. There's just not gonna be another Fred. So don't even go look for it. Don't even try, because that doesn't exist. But then what I had to conclude is that I couldn't look for Fred. The next guy was not gonna be Fred.

So don't look for that because that, and I kind of mentioned that to those people who have lost their partner, if you're looking for somebody that you've lost, that's not fair to you, it's not fair to the next person, it's not fair to the next relationship. And so, so yeah, I, we both kind of went down that path and at a certain point, it was a while that I thought,

Janell Rice (23:16.974)
I love this man. Now how we're gonna navigate Milwaukee and my home and him, because he had a very, very significant responsibility within Amazon, and so what, he's gonna leave his job? So yeah, we had a lot to work out.

Miriam Bulcher (23:20.711)
Okay.

Janell Rice (23:42.508)
through that process and saying, OK, this is the right person, but now what do we do about it? So, yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (23:42.62)
Hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (23:47.335)
Were you surprised when he proposed?

Janell Rice (23:53.422)
We had two proposals. The first proposal is when I said to him, think I want to just see you. I'd like us to be monogamous. And how do you feel about that? And he kind of said, well, I've been monogamous. And I'm like, well, I know. It's one thing to say it. It's another thing to commit to it. And so then he said, do you mean like getting engaged?

Miriam Bulcher (23:57.456)
Okay.

Janell Rice (24:22.286)
And I'm like, well, I suppose kind of, you know, because you can't really say we're, it's not like we're going to go steady or something at 65 years of age. So, so that was the first proposal. Then he's like, are you asking me to marry you? And I'm like, no, I'm not doing that. And then he's like, well, what's the difference? I'm like, I don't want to have this conversation with you. I've got it right in my mind. I don't want to discuss it. So that was the first proposal.

Then the second proposal was at his place. My kids had just left. He was acting super weird. And I thought he was getting ready to split up with me. And he came and he sat next to me and he took my hand and he was fumbling for words. And I thought, how did I misread this? And then he got the ring out and I'm like,

Miriam Bulcher (25:03.782)
Wow.

Janell Rice (25:20.158)
So that was the second time. And then of course I said yes.

Miriam Bulcher (25:26.759)
Yeah, I love that so much. So let's talk about what it's been like being married and adjusting to this like, oh my gosh, I have this person and this is amazing. And just welcoming that type of joy into your life, you know what I mean? Because it's very hard to go from grieving to, holy crap, I'm gonna put myself out there to, oh my gosh, I have what I...

want and like this is amazing and you know what I'm saying because a lot I think a lot of women don't realize that there is a lot of fear of just like having the joy come to you right like in a lot of joy come to you.

Janell Rice (26:07.276)
Yeah, well, it's a lot of things. It's fear. It's vulnerability. It's walking around in a relationship.

being completely transparent, being pun intended naked with each other, right? And then there were all of the little things that could have become big things like I had a very kind of more of a art deco home. He's got that traditional Denver big furniture, leather stuff. How do you bring those two worlds together? How do I make sure that I give him space in this home for his things?

without losing myself.

Miriam Bulcher (26:50.81)
Mm-hmm.

Janell Rice (26:51.284)
And so, you know, all of those things as we were, then the other thing that occurred to me is we have this term that we call shorthand. And basically it's where is he at and where am I at. In the first couple of times we figure anything out, we need to over communicate it because otherwise there's miscommunications around what did you intend, how do I feel about that. So we had a lot of conversations early.

just saying, what about this and where's that at and to the point where we could get to a healthy shorthand. you know it was it was hard. It was hard remembering that I love this guy and my relationship with him is more important than how I'm going to figure out how to make that dining room table work that I absolutely hate. So

In that case, we brought a designer in to be honest and said, help. And they helped me figure it out. I needed to remember, he was more important than the table was. Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (28:02.841)
Mm-hmm. That's a really, that's really, really solid advice because it's very easy to just, you know, like you mentioned, you have your things, you have what you really love. And not only that, but you've been with this style for years and years and years. And then to open that door and say, what am I willing to negotiate? Right? Like, what am I willing to?

Janell Rice (28:18.915)
Yep.

Miriam Bulcher (28:27.653)
back off on and is this, what does this mean for me and my identity? And I think that that's a really great perspective to share with women because I think it is, you know, even if it's dating or preliminary, whatever it might be, I mean, those are things that are really important to address, like within yourself to say, okay, this doesn't mean that the relationship can't work and it doesn't mean that I'm losing myself. What does this actually mean? So like, absolutely amazing.

Janell Rice (28:57.048)
Yeah, I mean, he's a very direct communicator. had a leadership position within Amazon. And so he's used to being the guy that walks in the room and makes big decisions every hour of every day. Well, when you come into my kitchen and tell me you're gonna take over, we're gonna have a conversation around that, right? I mean, I appreciate that's who you are and how you got to be who you are in the world. This is my kitchen.

So yeah, lots of tough conversation because he wanted to take over the kitchen. I mean all in. Grocery shopping, menu planning, refrigerator organization, you name it and I'm like, if you're gonna go in, you're gonna go all in because I'm not messing with somewhere in the middle of that. So that's your space, that's your responsibility then. But yeah, we had a lot of tough talks. So you know, it's...

Miriam Bulcher (29:43.195)
Mmm.

Janell Rice (29:52.426)
Every time you go through one of those things, it's difficult, but then you have your shorthand and then that builds on, you know, but again, I mean, you have to get through, you have to find the person that you like before you start figuring out how you're going to bring lifestyles together.

Miriam Bulcher (30:09.031)
Absolutely. So let's talk. love that you mentioned, right? Like the discourse that happens when you are Because along with being open to change is yes the desire for joy and happiness, right? Absolutely But as you mentioned there are the challenges along the way which are absolutely realistic and you have to be prepared for if you are willing to open the door to Happiness and joy and being able to spend that with that person. So let's talk about like your experiences in terms of like just overall

happiness, like since you've been married, how does that translate into you and like whether it's your identity or just like your overall day-to-day living?

Janell Rice (30:50.888)
So I mean, I'm privileged on a couple of levels, but one of the levels is that we really like each other and we are really attracted to each other. He thinks I'm cute and he's just a really handsome man. And so we start out with good chemistry. We wouldn't be able to maintain that chemistry though if we didn't like each other. So.

one of the things that we

We started out with just having a lot of fun, right? Typical dating stuff, go out for a cocktail, go to a movie. We went to Summerfest fairly early in the process and went and listened to a good old fashioned rock and roll band from back in our days. Eventually life starts creeping into all of that. And so what I found is that we needed to be selfish about our time together.

and not have, you know, the responsibilities constantly creeping in. You know, he doesn't need to know about all of the stuff that I have to do and at the time we were both working. So anyways, long story short, we needed to find time for each other.

and we needed to find an agree on what it was that we were going to do. Am I just going to come into Milwaukee? We're going to go out for dinner. Candidly, I found that because he was new, I needed to take lead. He had just moved here from Denver. And so I needed to go figure out what it was that we were going to do. Now that we've been together and we're married, we still have that challenge. I mean, I've got a huge landscaping project going on in the backyard right now. How do we make sure that in the middle

Janell Rice (32:40.0)
of doing all of that stuff, know, tearing up the dirt and getting the plants in and stuff that we still find time for each other every single day and just agree that this is our time not to talk about the to-do list from yesterday, not to talk about the logistics of the problem today, but we have all sorts of little things that we do. Maybe we go out for cocktail. We, you know, we've started painting together.

Do we go out on the porch? A couple weeks ago we went out and flew a kite together. We commit to fun because otherwise I think it's too easy for life just to take over and then you're just stuck in the middle of sitting in front of the TV because you're exhausted and you're tired and that's what you did with the available time that you had.

So I think it's a commitment every single day, even if it's just sitting down and turning the TV off and talking to each other at dinner.

Miriam Bulcher (33:44.647)
Mm hmm. Absolutely solid. I love everything that you're saying. I want to bring back though, like what was your previous relationship like in that similar context? Right? Like what was it like? Did you was it a similar process where you prioritize each other or did you feel like it was kind of natural? I'm just curious just because if you think about the transition between one relationship to another relationship, right? Like how were there similarities in that specific area? Like in terms of

the joy and the happiness that come with prioritizing each other.

Janell Rice (34:18.894)
Yeah, absolutely. think

I think joy is there for us to have at any given moment. The question becomes where is our intent focused? And so if my intent is focused at the TV, that's what I'm going to get. I sit down in my backyard every day towards the end of, close to the end of each day for 10 minutes on my deck.

And I just sit there and watch the birds and listen to the music. I sit down with him and talk to him about what's going on and where he's at. I mean, you need to make it a standing practice to pursue joy. And it doesn't have to be scheduled or structured. But if you don't go looking for it, the day is just going to take over.

So for us, we've realized after, especially we were reminded after working on this project, that if we don't commit to joy, the day just gets taken over and we're exhausted. And for us right now, that's a landscaping project, but anybody who's working or has other things, it's the same conversation. I mean, if we don't commit to finding some time each day for a little bit of fun, the take takes over. And then you're in front of the TV just tired.

Miriam Bulcher (35:08.071)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (35:37.307)
Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to the transition of like, you know, actually realizing that you are getting married and that you are committing to somebody else, right? Like long term. Do you feel like there were any emotional, weird hiccups or transitions within yourself when it came to like either the day of or like leading up to that you were like, holy crap, I'm doing this again. Like, did it shock you that you were kind of like in that position? Were there any just, you know what I mean?

And like any surprise or odd feelings that came up around, whoa, you know, like I'm getting married, what?

Janell Rice (36:20.916)
Absolutely. So I'm going to make a weird reference here. Anybody that's going through this, would encourage them to try to find the re- to review the Golden Bachelorette series that was on TV probably about a year ago. It was interesting for me to go through that and see the other women.

And then it was interesting to go through when she did her thing and see the other men and listen to, and I'm going to be all over the place with this response, the men were surprisingly vulnerable on that series. And it was revealing for me to say they feel just as uncomfortable in this whole process. So.

That's part of it to know that we're not alone. They're going through the same stuff. As far as the feelings things, and I bring that one up because she also lost her husband. And so being very honest about can I love again? Am I betraying the man that I loved for 22 years? And he's passed away, but what's...

Can I do this even? Can I give my heart to somebody else and not feel like I've abandoned what I had before? You absolutely go through fear. You go through questioning whether you're doing the right thing. You're going through feelings about transferring love to a new person. And do you have room in your heart for both of these people? Am I going to lose?

my partner of 22 years because now I have this new person in, there's a lot of really dark, difficult questions that you go through in figuring out if you can give your heart up again. so...

Janell Rice (38:27.06)
I was grateful that the woman who did, that led the Golden Bachelorette Series was so honest and so vulnerable around what it was that she was feeling because I think enough of us find some version of ourselves in there and say, I am not alone in this. And as uncomfortable as it is and frightening and gets you to question at so many levels, what do you do?

next to know that this may not be unusual. This might be normal. As crazy as that sounds and as crazy as it feels, this might be normal.

Miriam Bulcher (39:12.711)
Do you feel that that series really helped you in your situation? Do you feel like had that series not been there, do you feel like things would have been a little bit different?

Janell Rice (39:26.454)
I think that they would have been more difficult to get through that process. You know, when my husband of 22 years, Fred, passed away, I went through...

a different version of that, right, where you go through that phase. And one of the things that I found is that I was feeling guilty that he had passed away. And guilt is a very normal part of that process. Somehow you think that if you did this or that, you're going to get this person back, which doesn't happen. And it's the same, it's kind of the same thing, right? You've got these difficulties that you need to come to terms with as you go through these

phases but the good news in my opinion is that when you've got that right person you find that joy again you find that happiness and it doesn't look like the happiness that I had with Fred but at this phase of my life it is the perfect he's the perfect guy for me I don't know that he would have been the perfect guy for me 20 some odd years ago but he absolutely is now

Miriam Bulcher (40:20.721)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (40:31.227)
Mmm.

Miriam Bulcher (40:37.883)
Yeah, that's a really amazing point. And how you've worked through the internal conversation with yourself and just like...

Because I mean, it sounds like, and you can expand on this, but from what I'm hearing and how you've approached the difficult conversations, it sounds like you were willing to have those difficult conversations first with yourself, and that made it easier to communicate. Do you feel like that played a role in the success of your relationship was, OK, I need to first address what's going on with me internally, and then I know how to proceed externally? Do you feel like that's accurate?

Janell Rice (41:13.102)
Absolutely. If I don't do my own work, how can I go out into the world, right? I mean, if I didn't do my own work in recovering from the loss of Fred, I wouldn't be able to go out in the world and look for the next partner because I'd always be comparing that next partner to my last partner. And that's absolutely, that's not how you do this.

Miriam Bulcher (41:37.287)
Yep, absolutely. So you had mentioned prior to when we pressed record some things that you asked your husband about. And I'm really curious. I just want you to share those because they sounded really interesting. And I'm like, OK, well, now I really want to know what you asked him and what his responses were.

Janell Rice (41:56.456)
Yeah, so, you know, some of it doesn't really transfer over here because I'm like, well, why did you pick me? And what was this? And what was that? And those are things that I think are unique in the vetting process that both he and I went through that I'm not convinced would per se bring value to anybody that's interested in this conversation. But there were certain things that absolutely did make sense. My apologies.

Miriam Bulcher (42:23.185)
No worries.

Janell Rice (42:25.614)
absolutely some things that did make some sense to me. When I said, well, what was your experience in talking to other women and how did that look? So I'm going to be on a little bit of a segue here, but it's fun. I said, so how many women did you talk to? And he's like, oh, maybe around 13. And I'm like, oh, OK, so how did that go? And

He gave me his number and then he's like, well, how many of you had? And at the time it was like 290 some odd. And he became unglued with me. And he's like, and he became really defensive. And I'm like, I'm not talking to those guys, right? I'm here with you. But that was a whole thing.

then when we finally get past the sensitivity of that question and then you start kind of saying, okay then why me? Why not these other women that were out there? He felt like...

Janell Rice (43:37.9)
They were not likable. That they were coming in and they were really about what he could do for them. What was his financial status? Did he have children? Those kinds of things that give you a sense of their value financially in the world.

Miriam Bulcher (43:42.875)
testing.

Janell Rice (44:06.178)
Did you own your home? Tell me about your divorce. That kind of stuff. And I'm like, on the first call? And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, wow. I think if somebody came to me and said, because I've been married three times, what happened with your divorce? I mean, wouldn't we all kind of get a little defensive around that? So.

So yeah, you kind of started hearing from his perspective that this was very much about who was going to take care of them and what resources did they have to bring in. I don't really want this baggage. so that's why I kept it lighter weight. And it was really obvious to me.

when I was responding to guys that they were not used to that. They weren't used to just a nice light conversation. And I thought, well, that's kind of, that's a big lesson right there is just to start out with the basics and to be friendly and, you know, see if you can have a light conversation because it doesn't sound like that's what the guys want to find somebody they think.

Miriam Bulcher (45:01.681)
Hmm.

Janell Rice (45:23.202)
But they feel like they need to get punched in the gut to even get past the first conversation.

Miriam Bulcher (45:27.461)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. That's a really interesting. I'm really glad that he shared that because that is very fascinating to see and be like, okay, it's not a bad thing that women are assertive, but maybe have a little bit more strategy when it comes to, you know, at what point you bring up what things because I mean, you know, I don't feel like it's necessarily a bad thing to be concerned about financial things, but it's like, okay, I just, you know what I mean? Like be a little bit more strategic and at timing and you know, I feel like

also maybe the approach of, okay, well, we can take it easy, right? Like, I think also, you know, where does, I don't.

to use the word desperation, but I also want to be like, okay, well, where are you at in terms of like, do you want this really badly? Like, is that why the questions are coming up? You know, like that sort of thing. And that just has me, you know, really curious about these other women and you know what I mean? Like where they're at mentally and emotionally, just like in their relationship with themselves, right? Because that definitely is like, you know, I mean, that's a straight up job interview. You know, like, it's not really a conversation anymore. It's just straight, like Q &A rapid fire, like answer these questions. And then I'll

assess your personality after which is like that definitely would feel quite demeaning from his perspective to be like I'm only valuable if I answer these questions related to these specific things to you which is kind of I don't feel like any person doesn't matter what kind of conversation or even if you're talking to another woman I feel like we would all feel the same if someone was just you know being like well I don't really want to know you I just want to know these specific things related to who you are and what you can provide me and it just has

Miriam Bulcher (47:08.507)
that feeling of being used, which is like never, never good. And so that's really fascinating. That's so fascinating. my gosh. I'm so glad you asked him that.

Janell Rice (47:17.07)
Yeah. It's so basic, and yet when we start dissecting it, we realize this is not insignificant, I mean, any conversation that I had with anyone, whether I'm retired now, but if I was interviewing for a job, or if I was, you know.

talking to another woman and thinking, she could be a friend of mine. I wouldn't start out with the tough questions, and they wouldn't either. But somehow it ends up happening when we date.

Miriam Bulcher (47:48.239)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Janell Rice (47:50.03)
when we meet somebody, that we go, especially when you're on these platforms, because on these platforms, people are there because they are purpose-built platforms. We know that if you're there, that you're looking for somebody to date, you're of a certain age, et cetera. And then we lose, you know, we go there for what it has to do, but then we lose all of our social sense around how to start a conversation.

Miriam Bulcher (48:17.671)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's really, again, about like, OK, getting yourself right and in the right place. And like you said, doing the research, reading that book, which was a really, really smart move on your end prior to, you know, kind of opening yourself up into that world and then also, you know, assessing and doing that critical thinking and personal assessment from watching the series, which, again, are all like really incredible ways to internally prep and then also externally prep as well from the social aspect.

So when we think about other women who are wanting what you have, what would you, is there anything that you're like, okay, this is advice that I would give you outside of things that you've mentioned already.

Janell Rice (49:00.63)
Yeah, you know.

So I mentioned the Venus and Mars series earlier and one of the things that I was reminded of is that men usually like to be praised for their accomplishments. Women tend to like to be cared for. And so every single day I will stop

and thank him for what he did around the house. And then when I get in turn for that is, and this is, I think this is a huge deal, we will work around the house, and again I'm all over the place on this, we'll be working around the house all day long. And I come in from the garden and I'm a mess. I mean my hair's a mess, I'm a mess, I'm tired.

He cooks dinner, and when he cooks dinner, I mean, I have amazing meals every single night with candlelight, and they are plated meals, okay? And music. I go and I take a shower, and I dress for dinner. And I sit down and I thank him for what he did. And.

you know, just talk about what the amazing meal is. We talk about things of that nature. We do that every single day. We take care of each other every single day. Every single day, he has done a couple of things around the house for me. And every single day, I'll walk around at the end of the day and say, gosh, thank you. Look at this thing, right? And so I'm grateful for what he does for me, but I also reflect that back to him in gratitude.

Janell Rice (50:48.976)
standing and taking a look at the work that he did and what a huge difference it makes. so, you know, taking care of each other is, it needs to be a daily thing. And I need to remember that he was, he was attracted to a certain look about me. And even in the middle of being a mess, doing garage sales and everything else that we've been doing, I need to find time to

Miriam Bulcher (51:00.805)
Mm-hmm.

Janell Rice (51:18.144)
not only for me but for him, right? Just put on a summer dress and some earrings and sit down and a little bit of mascara and have a meal with him. It makes me feel pretty and he enjoys that. So we have to do that all the time. I mean, it's our relationship is healthy, not by accident. It is very much intentional in what we do and what we commit to each other every single day.

Miriam Bulcher (51:46.599)
Absolutely. Let's dig into that a little bit because everything that you're saying are things that like my husband and I do absolutely like, know, very which is, you know, amazing. And I remember when I learned very similar to, you know, the whole like men definitely like to be appreciated, right? Like they like to feel useful and they like to know that they are helping and assisting. I know a lot of women can

feel a little bit like, what about me? Am I going to be appreciated? You know what I mean? It can kind of feel like a double-edged sword in terms of, well, if I appreciate you, there's a fear of not being appreciated in return. Do you feel like that was ever there for you? And did you feel like you had to navigate that? Or did you feel like you were able to trust and you felt that you were appreciated in return? Maybe not in the same way, but that you were valued.

Janell Rice (52:45.922)
know that he has a huge amount of respect for me. I know that he thinks I'm smart. I know that he thinks I'm a hard worker. I don't look to him for any of that.

Miriam Bulcher (53:00.237)
Okay.

Janell Rice (53:01.814)
I don't look to him for any of it. I mean, if I get up and I have a purpose, it's my purpose. If he appreciates it, that's great. But I don't, in that space, per se, live my life for him.

Miriam Bulcher (53:09.159)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (53:20.165)
Mm-hmm.

that I feel like is the best ever. Like, I'm so obsessed that that is your answer because it is so true. And I mean, I know that there are lots of women who would love to be, it's hard. It's hard to prioritize yourself and it's hard to fall in love with yourself. And it is absolutely difficult to value yourself, especially as women in society, we've been trained to like give, give, give, give, give, whether it be corporate or, you know, personally or whatnot to children and that sort of thing. And so I love-

love that that was your answer. That just, I'm like obsessed with it because absolutely it is necessary, I would say. If you, and this is how I always described it to other people, but like my relationship is just a cherry on top of like, I'm not looking for, you know.

mean, yeah, I'm looking for happiness and that sort of thing. But like, I'm not going to like my joy and my identity is in me. It's not in another person, even though absolutely I gain a huge amount of things, right? Like I forget my retainer almost every single night and he goes and grabs it for me. And I know that I never have to get out of bed and do it. And he's like, always. And I mean, I'm like, yeah, would that be annoying if I like, you know, had to do that myself? Absolutely. But there are certain things that are like, well, I just

Yes, I do benefit, but at the end of the day, it's like you know your relationship with yourself and that leads to having this other relationship that really benefits in return. so do you, is there any advice to women who are maybe wanting to have exactly what you just said, right? Like, I value myself and I know that I can appreciate myself. What would you tell them if they're like, well, I want to have that and they're working on it?

Janell Rice (55:06.85)
You gotta do your homework.

Miriam Bulcher (55:09.063)
Okay, what does that look like?

Janell Rice (55:10.402)
You got to do your homework. Gosh, what does that look like?

Janell Rice (55:20.194)
He cannot help me find my joy. He can bring me things or bring me support that brings me joy, but I need to find my own joy. So I need to start out there, right? As far as everything else goes.

It's not easy to get that answer because I'll be outside working on something and I'll have an idea about a space and he'll have his opinion. Well now if I'm putting together the design and he has his opinion.

How personally am I going to take that? Because the one thing he wanted influences my whole design. I mean, this is the tango, right? If you've ever watched a tango, there's passion. But there is difficulty in that dance. And that is, I mean, it's just right there, right? So I need to get up and say who I am. And I'll share that with him and do what I'm doing.

I guess I would say on the other side of that, isn't that the beauty of being at this point in our life? They are who they are. We are who we are. I know my worth. I know my purpose. I know my intellect. I know what I'm attracted to. At some point, if I give something away and it bothers me with him, then I shouldn't have given it to him.

Because I don't have my peace now, right? So I personally think the first two years are tough. Because again, you're trying to shorthand all of that stuff. You're trying to figure out who you are, who I am. OK, we've got to figure it out. We can shorthand it now. But every single thing, every conversation can feel like it's work early on in that relationship.

Janell Rice (57:21.41)
Did I answer your question?

Miriam Bulcher (57:23.717)
Yeah, so we were talking about yes and also partially no. more so like how do you encourage the conversation with yourself to value you and to really get to know you and be like, I'm, you you, you initially said it like, you know, that person's not going to find your own joy. You have to be the one willing to do that work yourself. So do you have like, and I'm just going to throw some examples out there. Like, you journal? Do you, you know what I mean? Like, how do you, how did you build that self-awareness within yourself?

to say, okay, I have to prioritize me and I'm gonna sit down and figure out what that looks like. Or do you feel like that came with age?

Janell Rice (58:03.084)
I think some of it came with age, however, it's like anything else. If we don't work on it, it doesn't sustain itself. I happen to have a magazine that I love that I go to and whenever I sit down and spend some time with it, I find a couple of things in that magazine that remind me of the beauty that is around me all the time, the joy that is there, and what I need to do.

to bring that into my life. I mean, I can't sit there and just be passive. It's not going to happen. So I tend to journal, but I journal in difficulty because that's when I can have a private conversation with myself and I can be really raw. I can be really honest. can write down the words that probably should never come out of my mouth. All of that stuff.

that you have that safe space with a journal. The other thing will help me bring it in there, but then the other thing that we do, our little tiny practice, is I'll say, what are we going to do for fun today? Do you want to

This might be inappropriate, but we bought a massage table. Do you want to massage this afternoon? Do you want to paint this afternoon? What do we want to do for fun? And so we'll talk about that. It's part of our conversation every day is to say what do we, first of all, agree on, but then the commitment to joy as a practice, but the third piece is through the course of the day, then we're both looking forward to that time together, right? So it's like, we're going to sit on the porch and paint this

Miriam Bulcher (59:42.779)
Mm-hmm.

Janell Rice (59:46.746)
afternoon. So when you have a little moment it's like yeah I get to hang out with my guy right but they're all very proactive that that conversation is proactive. I mean my joy is just as important my joy is more important to me than getting another load of laundry done so why didn't I schedule that?

Miriam Bulcher (59:56.389)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (01:00:09.177)
Absolutely. Yeah. So from what I'm hearing, it sounds like, you do have to fight for you. You have to fight for your own needs. You have to fight for your own desires. And you have to be willing to assert that permanently, because if you don't, you know, prioritize it, it's just going to fall to the wayside by life, as you mentioned. Right. Like life is just going to get in the way. And then you'll be who knows, you know, whether it's months or years deep into being like, why do I feel so unsatisfied or feel so, you know, unfulfilled or whatnot?

Janell Rice (01:00:38.338)
And then you will resent everything and everyone. I mean, you'll resent them. You'll resent yourself. It's not a good path. Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (01:00:48.293)
Yeah, absolutely. Is there any other advice that you would suggest for these women who are wanting to go down the path of like, OK, yeah, not only do I want to value myself, but I do want to value a partner and I want to put myself out there and I want to experience this joy? Is there anything that you haven't mentioned that you're like, OK, yeah, that's something else that I would recommend?

Janell Rice (01:01:08.882)
You know, my suspicion is that the women that are going to be listening to this have, they've done well. They've done well financially. They've done well in their careers. They've got good lives. And it took them a long time to build that.

It took them a long time to build themselves. It took a long time to do all of the things that have helped them become the person that they're proud to be right now, right? You don't have to lose that. You absolutely don't have to lose that. You need to decide that just like anything that was important to you that you went in pursuit of, you took some time.

Miriam Bulcher (01:01:39.004)
Mm-hmm.

Janell Rice (01:01:58.114)
You figured out what you wanted? You did your homework? You know, I don't know, maybe it's working out, maybe it's getting a makeup lesson, maybe it's learning how to flirt, right? You need to put together a plan. You need to work that plan to have yourself be ready. There's a right guy out there. He might not be the first guy. He might not be the hundredth guy. But if you're ready when he shows up,

then you're good. Because if you're trying to figure out the right guy shows up and you're not ready, now what? Right? You missed your opportunity. I mean, we know that when it comes to buying a house. We know it when it comes to work. We know when it comes to buying a car. All of those things that we know that we have to do our homework first before we launch into a major decision, this is certainly no different than that.

Miriam Bulcher (01:02:28.741)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Bulcher (01:02:55.975)
Absolutely. my gosh. Absolutely incredible advice. And I think that this was so, so, so helpful just from hearing your story and just understanding, right, all the different things that you're going to navigate from, you know, preparing yourself to get into relationship, the actual dating process, and then what it's like after being like, my gosh, I have this person that I'm going to commit. So I appreciate you being vulnerable with me and sharing all that information. And this has been an absolute pleasure. And I am so grateful for you.

Janell Rice (01:03:26.456)
Well...

And I'm so grateful for you. mean, I remember having a conversation with you about flirting, right? I've been in a relationship, I'd been in a relationship for 22 years. I didn't know how to flirt. I mean, I knew how to flirt with him. We did it all the time. But then I'm like, how do even do that, right? And it's so funny that we forget how to flirt. And so you gave me, you and another woman that I know, I asked you both that question about eye

contact and touch and you know all of those little signals that you sent to somebody to tell them that you

you're into, you know, and so thank you. Thank you for the stunning photos that you took of me and helping me prepare. Thank you for helping me find some confidence in that process to say I can go out into the world and feel good about the image that I have for teaching me how to flirt. And I remember, you know, hearing both you and Tish in my head and saying, okay,

make eye contact and go like this and reach out and just touches, you know, touch his hand, those little things that tell him and tell me to tell him that I'm interested in him without pursuing him. Just to say, thank you so much. This has been terrific. And have him go, hey. Yeah. So.

Miriam Bulcher (01:04:51.089)
Yeah.

Miriam Bulcher (01:04:55.237)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Miriam Bulcher (01:05:04.314)
Yeah, I love that.

Janell Rice (01:05:06.306)
Thank you for what you do in the world and helping us get ready for kind of that, not only that self-confidence that when we look at your images that we kind of go, that's me, wow. But then how that helps you go out into the world and kind of, you know, be your best self.

Miriam Bulcher (01:05:28.987)
Yeah, absolutely. And I love hearing that feedback. And I love just hearing how the journey has been. And that's what this podcast is all about, right? Is like, what does that journey look like? And how can we just open other women, help other women in the process? And everything you mentioned has been absolutely incredible. So thank you.

Janell Rice (01:05:49.878)
My pleasure. Thanks for letting me join you this morning.

Miriam Bulcher (01:05:52.815)
Yes, we can still chat.