01 - Flawed, Fabulous, and Done with Perfectionism

In our very first episode, we’re diving headfirst into a topic that’s close to both our hearts - perfectionism.

Why do we feel the need to get everything “just right”? What’s really driving the pressure to be perfect — at work, in relationships, online, and even in our own minds? And most importantly, what happens when we stop striving and start embracing who we truly are?

Join Shazia and Dr Munita as we unpack:

• Sneaky ways perfectionism shows up in everyday life
• How childhood, culture, and social media shape our self-worth
• The connection between perfectionism, fear, and burnout
• Personal stories of procrastination, pressure, and people-pleasing
• Practical tools and mindset shifts to help you let go and lighten up

We’re keeping it real, raw, and a little rebellious - because life isn’t about being perfect. It’s about being present, being kind to ourselves, and finding freedom in the flaws.

💭 Reflection for you: Where is perfectionism showing up in your life right now? What might shift if you loosened the grip, even just a little?

We’re so glad you’re here. Stay flawed. Stay fabulous. And keep showing up as you.

Edited and produced by Mike at Making Digital Real 🎙️

Transcript

Hi everyone, welcome to Flawed and Fabulous, the podcast that celebrates being ourselves and figuring out life through the ups and downs. We're very excited and we're very nervous because this is our first episode. So, Munita, how are you feeling? Well, really nervous actually. 

Thank you, Shazia. Perfectionism, very close to my heart, I have to say. I've lived with it quite a long time.

And I'm delighted that this is our third podcast because we can be perfectly imperfect. And that means there is no pressure on us right now. So, fingers crossed.

Fingers crossed. I'm also extremely nervous, I'm not going to lie. It was the process of us finding a name for this podcast was also quite flawed and fabulous, I would say.

Going through numerous iterations, asking our friends, asking our families and also asking our friends, Claude and Chachipiti, what we could name this podcast. And finally, we settled on Flawed and Fabulous because it was simple. And we both thought that it really captured our outlook on life, which is that we're all flawed, but we all have the extraordinary in us if we only allow ourselves to see it.

Which leads us nicely into this first episode on Perfectionism. So, Monita, what's your view on Perfectionism? Well, I told my daughter we were going to do this podcast on Perfectionism. And I said, you know, what do you think about that? Do you think I have any traits of that? And she just looked at me with a knowing look.

And for those of you out there, I moved house about a year ago now and I have unpacked the whole house, settled it all up, but there is one room. And in that one room, the entire house is perfect, but that one room has the door shut, everything is in it. And we're now coming up to a whole year and I have been trying my best because I said one day I'm going to just go in there, I'm going to just sort it all out and it's going to be perfect.

So that day has yet to come. And here we are doing our podcast on just such a thing. Well, it shows up in sneaky ways, doesn't it? This whole concept of being perfect in our work, in our relationships and even in our self-worth.

So maybe we unpack it a little bit. And, you know, the pressure, I think that in today's day and age, the pressure we feel to be perfect, seeing what everybody else is doing on Instagram and on TikTok and on Facebook, I don't know, that's where the pressure comes that we've got to do everything just right. What do you think? That's right.

And I think, you know, we are praising a polished outlook. You know, I read this really interesting thing about pressure of going on holiday. And, you know, I replied to the post on LinkedIn and he is absolutely spot on.

When we go on holiday, it's no more to unwind. It's for the social media pictures of the perfect restaurant with the perfect outfit and the best looking lipstick, the high heels and everything else to boot, the swimming pool and the idyllic location. It can't just be an unpack.

So perfection surrounds us and it really does have wide reaching ramifications. So without further ado, let's get right into it. So what is perfectionism? For me, it's this notion that everything has to be just right.

And that is quite an interesting concept of what is just right and who is it just right by and for. But, yeah, everything has to be right. Everything has to fit in the norm that, you know, the expectation.

And that's the other big word. The expectation of what is exactly right is the other big pressurizing word. Agree, agree on that.

And, you know, I was looking at a bit of stuff about the perfectionism. And Carol Dweck is a famous American professor of psychology at Stanford University. And she's awesome.

For those of you that haven't checked her out, check her out, Carol Dweck, D-W-E-C-K. And she had a clip that I was listening to where she describes the way one of her clients explains perfectionism. And actually, I think it speaks volumes.

So I'm going to say it for you now. Perfectionism, I want to get it perfect the first time, every time. My inner critic is fierce.

It is my judge and my warden. And I am a prisoner. I love that.

That absolutely, for me, encapsulates the whole of perfectionism. What do you think? Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's so beautifully put.

And Brene Brown also used, you know, defined perfectionism. Interestingly, in a more hard-hitting way, saying it is a self-destructive and addictive belief system. 100%.

Yeah. And, you know, the problem is we sort of think that perfectionism is outcomes, positive outcomes. And that is where the myth comes in.

And you're going to talk about myths a bit later on, so I'm not going to go into that. But I think you're spot on with Brene Brown. Yeah.

And what was interesting, in fact, was, you know, when we were doing a little bit of research on this whole notion of perfectionism, that it's growing. The need for, you know, portraying certain images and being exactly a certain way is growing. In fact, a study from the American Psychological Association showed that there's been a 33% increase in perfectionist traits amongst young people since the 1980s.

So no wonder, no wonder, I am so busy in my practice. Because the pressure of being perfect, the pressure of having everything go exactly as you want all the time, is immense. And it's just not possible.

These things, there's no such thing. Now, when you said the 80s, I thought you were going to say that's why all our friends and ourselves are afflicted with this. But you're absolutely right.

We have... Perfectionism is growing, it's everywhere. So I'm going to ask you a question now, Shazia. When did you first realize and how has it affected you? Has it ever affected you? You know, Munita, I'm not a perfectionist in that I have to, like, get all the I's dotted and the T's crossed.

And I'm a little bit relaxed about those sorts of things. But where I think I struggle with is more from an internal point of view. Did I say the right thing? Did I text the right thing? Did what I say, did what I have said land the right way? And then I go into this internal conflict.

And the other thing is, you know, sometimes I just want to do something silly. Sometimes I think I just want to be badly behaved. And that is okay.

Oh, that's very okay, yeah. And, you know, and I think that's where we... the judgment comes. That's where it's like, oh my God, I shouldn't have done this.

I should have done this. It should have been done this way. I should have said it that way.

What we... But can I ask you, who is saying that to you? You. The internal critic, you know, the voices in our head, society. I've now sort of reached a stage at this ripe old age where I'm like, you know what, I don't really care anymore.

And it's not I don't care in a way of, oh, I don't give a damn kind of care. But I now want to do what I want to do in the way I want to do it. And if it is not perfect, if it is a little bit off, then what is the norm? It's okay.

So has that come recently? Or is that something you've taught yourself? I know we're going to talk a little bit about ways to overcome perfectionism later on in the podcast. So I won't do a spoiler alert on that just yet. But yeah, I think that it has come through my counseling work that I do.

It has, you know, I've learned through my clients, through the training that I did, that, you know, it is okay to not be always on top of your game. Life is not like that. 100%.

What about you? I agree with that. What about your experiences in this? So perfectionism, I think, is partnered with the job I do. I'm an intensive care consultant by trade.

And as a medic, we have to get things and make them perfect. And I don't think there's any way we can get away from perhaps that having a crossover effect in our sort of day-to-day lives as well. And I think it does.

I think it permeates your relationships, your parenting, you know, the idea of bringing up your child in a certain way and praising them for all the milestones they get to. And Carol Dweck also talks about this and talks about how when somebody scores really great in an exam paper, a child, she suggests what we should be doing is instead of saying, hey, that's a great score, she suggests we should say, well, I'm sorry about that. That obviously wasn't hard enough for you.

We'll have to try better next time. And it completely turns the whole thing on its head. So I have had flawed perfectionism for a very long time.

I've learned to deal with it. For me, it really manifests as procrastination. So I end up sort of never starting something or starting something very last minute and getting really stressed about it because I've left it so long, because of course I want to make it perfect from the get-go and it just is not... And I've learned ways to overcome that.

And some of them we'll talk about later, but it's definitely a feature of my life. Yeah, I mean, even this podcast, right, even doing this first episode, I've been stressing about it because in my mind, I'm thinking, oh, my God, what if it's not perfect? What if it's not hitting the audiences in the right way? But we've just decided to give it a go and see where it goes, haven't we? Exactly, and we're doing great. I think we should give ourselves a pat on the back.

So what kind of things have you held back from because of your perfectionism? What would you say? Do you think of anything out of the blue? The thing about perfectionism, really, if we were to go back, and I'm putting on my therapist hat here, if we were to go back and peel off the layers of perfectionism, what lies way beneath it is fear. 100%, yeah. So, you know, when we talk about it, why do we want to achieve this standard or this space of being perfect is because we are afraid of judgment, we are afraid of failure, and we are afraid of being seen as not good enough.

Yeah, and I think... Not good enough. That's right, and I think it comes from society in a major part, and, you know, I see it starts right the way through nursery, through primary school, secondary school, and it really peaks in secondary school, a big hump around the 13, 14, driven by, and dare we say it, social media, but also in our early 20s when we are beginning to get jobs, we're beginning to look at our next part of our life, and it's really prevalent at that time. So I think there are two humps.

I think the sort of 13, 14-year-olds, and I think then it really ramps up in the 20s again. Yeah, when you're starting to get into relationships, date people, at those times as well, you know. Yeah, I think that's right, and relationship-wise, you are asking unrealistic expectations of either yourself in that setting or a partner, and that can lead to friction, failure.

We also have a constant self-criticism of not matching what our peers are appearing to do. It is a massive societal pressure. The costs are real though, Shazia, you know.

Cortisol goes up, blood pressure goes up. We find ourselves gaining weight. We're miserable.

We procrastinate, as you've heard. There's a degree of inertia, and actually, paradoxically, productivity plummets. And that's the myth, right? The myth is that the more perfect you are, the higher the productivity, the standards are higher, but actually, I have seen even in my work, in my practice, that the most anxious people are the ones who are constantly striving for perfection, but then what happens is that because, as we know, it is an impossible place to be, it impacts their productivity, it impacts their output, it impacts their confidence, which then, in turn, brings down their performance.

So, really, it's pretty much... It doesn't work. The bottom line is, there was a quote by a lady called Elizabeth Gilbert, and her quote was that perfectionism is just here in high heels. Oh, my God, I love that.

That's absolutely fantastic. I'm going to pinch that. I think that's absolutely brilliant.

But the thing that... The one thing... I just want to go back to that. You know, you said it can create anxiety and depression, but likewise, if you've had it long enough, I think I've seen people who get cynical about what's the point of that, and I just wonder whether this... When they get to the cynical part, whether they're just scratching the surface of self-understanding that perhaps perfectionism is not what it's cracked up to be. Hey, why would you want to go for 100% when 70% will get you the same result? And that's what I tell my clients.

There is no point striving for 100% when the pass mark is 70%. What's the point? I think, Munita, that comes with a lot of self-awareness. It comes with a lot of internal work.

You know, when you sort of turn... Look in the mirror, effectively, the internal mirror, and then ask yourself, what am I doing? You know, who am I impressing? Where is this fear coming from? Whose voice in my head is driving me to reach standards and levels that don't exist, essentially? And I think that comes with a little bit of maturity, a little bit of... Not a little bit, a lot of life experiences before we come to that place. It's true. But, I mean, you know, increasingly being recognized as an entity called FODO.

Now, we're very familiar with FOMO, fear of missing out. We're very familiar with JOMO, which is the joy of missing out, which you try and get yourself to when you get a little bit of... Do a bit of self-work, as you've said. But FODO is the actual fear of discovering oneself.

What makes you tick? What makes you happy? What is it that are your drivers? Are you driving yourself? Is that... Or is it the external societal pressures? And I love FODO. It's one of my pet things. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. I'm going to use that now in my own work.

So where were we? We want to talk... I want to talk a little bit about childhood because I think we've touched upon it, but the origins of perfectionism are very interesting. I think people talk, looking at the literature, about it being praised for achieving certain grades, certain goals, whether you're academic or sporty. And actually, that doesn't do you any good in the long run because you then create those same hard pressures, deadlines, sports, challenges for yourself, and the inner critic becomes extremely strong.

Also, it seems to translate that in the eyes of the child, achieving those goals means that you are loved. And actually, the real nub of perfectionism is your self-worth hitting rock bottom and you not feeling that you are entitled for the love, for yourself, actually, or from others because self-care, self-love is a big thing. So I like the idea of talking about childhood.

I, myself, remember very clearly being in secondary school and two fantastically bright girls in my class who always came first and second, every subject, every year, and I was always third. I don't know what happened, but there was a switch that flicked at some stage, and instead of thinking I came third, I remember thinking to myself, I'm in the top three. I don't know when it happened, I can't tell you, but I can tell you that that was me reframing the whole situation and feeling very happy about it, and I remember doing it at a very early age.

That word that you used just now is really key, reframing. Correct. It is vital, actually, that we learn how to reframe some of the voices and some of the messaging that we get and that we learn growing up.

You know, how do I change the wording so that it's not punitive, so that it is not telling me off for not being this perfect, the notion of being perfect. And flaws. Yeah.

Flaws. We remember our flaws, they're memorable, but what we don't do is we don't attribute the fact that we're human. We don't allow ourselves those flaws.

I mean, Salvador Dali is a quote, have no fear of perfection, you'll never reach it. I love that. I think that's comedy.

And, you know, with him in mind, you know, and his artwork, that actually is absolutely his imagery and so forth. So, you know, I think being, what does flawed and fabulous mean to you then? Flawed and fabulous means that I don't always get it right, but that means I'm still, you know, I'm still who I am. I like who I am with the knowledge that I will make mistakes.

I will sometimes hurt people. I will sometimes say things that I shouldn't, do things that I shouldn't. But as long as I do self, I do an amount of self-reflection, as long as I take accountability and responsibility for what I'm doing and I'm saying, and as you know what, sometimes as long as I have the courage to say, I'm sorry, it's okay.

And when I say hurt somebody, I don't mean like physically hurt somebody. I mean, you know, sometimes we say things that, you don't always mean it, but the key is that accepting that, you know what? I messed up here. Life is messy.

I've messed up here. It's okay. There are ways for me to make amends.

And that's all we can do as people, because there is, we just, we just can't always be perfect right all the time. And we've got to learn how to accept that of ourselves. Yeah, a hundred percent.

And I think everybody has flaws, but that does not mean your self-worth should be reduced. Flaws are not meant to highlight a lack of self-worth. We're human.

We will make mistakes and we will hopefully learn from them. You know, the growth mindset takes time to settle in. And we have to remember that humans are a spectrum.

We're on the spectrum. We are evolving. We're learning all the time.

So just because you make a mistake, yeah, you can berate yourself, but actually give yourself a bit of a pat on the back for having a go in the first place. Don't forget, you know, and I think this is where you're worthy of love, just because you don't take the best Instagram picture, just because you don't have the best real, the best holiday pictures. It does not mean you are any less worthy of the love, affection, either from yourself or from others.

And that's the importance of this whole concept of self-compassion, which I try really hard when I'm working with clients to get them to understand what that means. You know, the importance of self-compassion and practicing that, which is essentially telling yourself that it's okay. You know, it is okay that I am not doing this in the way that it's supposed to be done.

It is okay if, you know, for one day, for example, instead of being extra productive, I choose to sit in front of the television and watch Friends. It is okay. You know, of course, we don't want that to become a regular thing, but occasionally it is okay for us to have a down day.

It is also okay for us to not feel great. That's the other thing. We have this notion that we have to always feel happy and joyous all the time.

We don't. It is okay that we have down days. 100%.

And that's what the concept of self-compassion is for me. Yeah, and for me, I think, you know, appreciate what you do well first. Give yourself a pat on the back for all the things that you do.

Maybe make a list of them on a daily basis. You know, I've done this, this, this, because we're not automated, habit-driven creatures. And, you know, we do things, and we don't really reference how well we've done them or whether we've done them.

So embrace your authenticity. Be you. Be happy to be you.

Accept your quirks and traits as just that, quirks and traits. But I just want to go back for one second, because we've talked a lot about perfectionism so far. But if you are somebody who's listening to this podcast and you're thinking, I'm not sure whether I might have this, I might have some traits of it, I'm just going to say there are some signs that you might want to think about.

Things like if you have a deadline or you have an exam or you have a presentation or something, and you're checking, double-checking, triple-checking, scrapping, redoing, maybe not even starting in the first place if you happen to be somebody like me, and you have a genuine fear of what the consequences will be, this is somebody that you could be having a little bit of a perfectionism trait. And I think it's important. Sometimes it's good.

It's not always bad. It can be adaptive, but when it becomes maladaptive, it's when the problems occur. So, you know, you've got to get a deadline done.

You've got to get yourself going. You want it to be good. You want the presentation.

You practice. You repractice your presentation before you actually do it. That's adaptive.

It's maladaptive if you stay up and don't do the presentation until the night before, until the early hours before, and then start panicking. That is a little bit of procrastination perfectionism, in my humble opinion. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, of course, if we've got to have maintained deadlines and things like that, we have to do that. But you're right, when it becomes something that causes so much anxiety, when it becomes something that you cannot finish something because you just need it to be a specific way, which you will never get to, that's when these become, these are, like you said, the use of the word maladaptive, when they become problems. And when I say when they become problems, I mean when it causes you to start feeling levels of anxiety that are not manageable.

When it causes you to sometimes freeze or, you know, flee. So essentially, when you say shut shop, you're running away from something and you're like, oh, I'm not going to do this anymore because I'm never going to get it right. That is something we need to think, hmm, is this something that is useful for me? Is it benefiting me? Or we say, I'm just going to shut the computer down now, I can't do this anymore because it's neat.

That color is not the exact shade that I want it to be. And I've tried for the past three hours and I just can't get it. No, there's something wrong.

Exactly, exactly. We need to think about, you know, what is it that I'm trying, how is this benefiting me? I just want to now say, look, we have explored lots of things about perfectionism, but I don't want the listeners to go away thinking that this is all doom and gloom, we can't do anything about it. There's loads you can do to overcome it.

And I think the next section we're going to talk about is coping strategies and solutions. And I'm going to kick off with the first one is to recognize that, which is why I went back in the last section and talked about the signs that you might want to look for in yourself because recognizing it is so important so that you can do something about it. You know, if you need to talk to someone, you know, speak to family, friends, speak to a therapist, if you find that this need to be perfect, this need to get everything right all the time is actually becoming problematic, it is actually causing you anxiety, it is causing burnout, it is causing you to feel like you are not good enough.

So, you know, talk to someone, it's really important to reach out for support. When you think about your life and you are trying to achieve goals, let's say career, relationships, maybe parenting, try and make them realistic, try and make them bite size, try and give yourself a chance to get to that goal on the way to the final destination goal, you know, break it all up, make it actually possible and actually rather than getting to the actual goal, do a little bit of it every single day. Progress mindset is the way forward.

Yeah, and the other thing is, you know, start, start doing it. You know, I know that sometimes you get nervous just even embarking on a project just because you are scared that it won't be what you want it to be. Well, just get started.

This is what we are doing today. We are both really quite nervous about this podcast. Can you tell? And so that's what we have done today.

We have said we are going to start and we will see where it goes. Exactly. Just start it.

Even if it's, if you are writing something, write the first line. If you are doing some school work or whatever it is, start, you know, and it will start flowing. Yeah, and I think, you know, we haven't touched upon this but I think this is very important which is embracing the concept of good enough rather than going for supertives.

I think good enough should be a mantra because so often the perfectionist will not start, will not do for fear of achieving the top mark, the best outcome, the first place as it is. Yeah, I mean, I hear people who say to me, you know, it's not about anyone else. I need it to be perfect.

And again, we go back to asking yourself, you know, why? And where did it start? Where did it start? And, you know, that whole thing. But in terms of how do we cope with it? Like we've already talked about, you know, see someone, get started and what is called a messy first draft. Just do it.

As Nike says, just do it, you know, and it will start moving. Yeah. Challenge your self-critical inner critic.

If you start having negative self-talk, stop yourself, think about it. Ask yourself what we could do differently. Why are you being negative towards yourself? Change it.

See if you can challenge your self-criticism. That's the big reframe word. You know, if you have, if you say something or you hear yourself saying something negative to yourself, you know, the language we use for ourselves is really important.

If you hear yourself saying something negative, ask yourself, what could I say instead that reframes that sentence into something more positive, into something more encouraging? And I think, you know, if you're doing a piece of work, you know, ask yourself, if nobody else had to see this, if I didn't have to present it, if I didn't have to submit it, would I still feel that it needs to be perfect? And if the answer is no, then just send it off. So we have a challenge for you. The challenge is that every day or every week, every week, for those of you who think that you are perfectionists and that this, you know, is a very, very, very strong part of your life, your challenge is that every week, do one thing that is imperfect on purpose.

And I know that initially it's going to be really uncomfortable. You're going to be probably riddled with anxiety just at the thought of it. But just allow yourself to sit in it.

Let it be. And then, you know, the question to ask yourself at the end of it is, so what? At the end of that, you know, if I do something that is not perfect, so what? I think it was John McEnroe or someone who once said, nobody died. So if you do something that is not perfect, just, it's okay.

Nobody died. Yeah. I'm not sure about that in my field, but you can carry on.

Exactly. That might be a challenge for some of us that do other things. And, you know, you could do, as you say, you're saying a detox week, aren't you? Is that what you're alluding to? And I would write things down.

I would write down a diary of what it is, what you feel when you feel like you can't start something for fear of perfection. And have a look. See how many days it is that you're on this train for, for fear of submission or presentation.

And then loop it back. I would say, if you have this for more than a month, you should probably talk to somebody. I think because it's probably going to be impacting other areas of your life that you just haven't quite understood.

Perhaps things aren't quite right in other sectors of your life. If it's a career related, for example, the procrastination, perfectionism. So, I think, let's just recap on a few things as we wrap up.

We've talked about the role of society and culture and social media and how perfect reels and perfect places and perfect people whilst you are sitting in your pyjamas still in front of a screen working at home make you feel really like your self-worth is poor. We've talked about childhood achievements and perhaps that's where this stems from and the notion that perhaps this is linked to getting love from your parents or in fact later on in life in your partners. And the role of family and school and shaping perfectionist tendencies.

Shazia, what about you? Let's talk about what narratives you grew up hearing about success or failure. I've talked about my first, second and third thing. I mean, you know, Munita, I grew up in India.

Success and failure and perfectionism was very, very closely attached to academic excellence and academic success. So, I mean, I was an okay student. I wasn't in the top of the class.

I wasn't in the bottom. I was somewhere in the middle. But luckily, I grew up in a home where it was not the be-all and end-all of existence.

So, I was okay. So, but there were other things. You know, we grew up in a society where, you know, girls had to, we had to look for partners.

You know, if you weren't able to find a husband, then there was some, you know, you were not perfect. Those were the sort of insecurities many of us grew up with. So, culture, society, your environment, parental influences, all these things impact this notion of perfectionism because at the end of the day, we want approval.

You know, that's the bottom line. That fear is the fear of judgment and the fear of not getting approval from our primary caregivers, our family members, our peers, the society that we live in, which is why we are always striving then to be of a certain type and be of a certain level to try and get that level of approval. So, that's what I sort of grew up with.

What about the children of today? You know, the role modeling that we perhaps had from teachers, parents, uncles and aunts, the children now are looking at perfectly perfect images and notions of correct. How are they going to get across this? Yeah, this is, that is why in the last, you know, five, ten years even, young people have had greater and greater issues with their mental health. Levels of resilience have gone down.

You know, the levels of anxiety and depression have gone down. Sorry, have gone up because there is a constant striving and a never reaching where you need to be mindset. And whilst, you know, we have to live with social media and now AI and things like that, social media has had a massive, massive impact on our young people because what they see often is not real but it feels real and so everybody wants to be that ideal.

You know, you will see people, for example, having the best time of their lives or taking pictures of their perfect family when you know that behind the front door there is absolute mayhem in that home. That's right, that's right. So, social media has had a huge, huge influence in this increase in needing to be and present a certain way of lifestyle and a way of being.

And, you know, without too much doom and gloom, I would say the more we normalise realness and authenticity, being who you actually are, getting rid of the photo effect, the more we are going to be liberating ourselves and other people from perfectionist prisons. Yeah, I think one of the things that for me, and that, again, the word that you use is liberating. You know, that feeling of... Lightless.

Feeling light. Lightless. Yeah.

You know, when I started my sort of path and the training and learning more about myself and, most importantly, just accepting who I am and liking who I am, that feeling is really freeing. It is. It is really liberating.

And then, you start enjoying life more. You do, and it becomes a journey. It's not... You carry on.

You want to know more. It's a really lovely self-development growth journey. I would advise and advocate for that massively.

So, let's highlight two or three things that we think are really important. I would say, think about perfectionism if perhaps you are becoming stuck in a part of your life, whether that's personal, career, whether it's parenting. Just think, could this be down to a perfectionism trait? So, recognition, Shazia, number two.

Number two. It is not possible to be perfect. In fact, it is unattainable, perfectionism, because it actually does not exist.

And I would say the most important thing is to ask yourself where it is stemming from and what is it that you are actually afraid of, because at the end of the day, it comes from a place of fear. Where are you operating from? From which emotion are you operating? And I would say, remember, just because you are a perfectionist, does not mean that your productivity is higher and in fact, could be lower. And, just because you're imperfect, doesn't mean that your self-worth is any less.

And finally, remember to embrace good enough, because why go for 100% when 70 will do. And also, the final thing I want to say, More finally. More finally.

The last finally is that we are all flawed. We are all imperfect. We are all not, you know, not the, not where we must be always, all the time.

But, we all have, all of us, if we take the time to look for it, we all have something fabulous, fantastic, and absolutely amazing within us. We're all amazing. So we need to embrace that aspect of awesome.

My question to you, the audience, for a reflection. Where is perfectionism showing up in your life right now? What would happen if you let go, even just a tiny little bit? Don't have to answer it right now. Think about it for the next week.

Maybe drop us a line. I want to say a massive thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you to you, Shazia, for showing up and doing this because we said we would and here we are.

Thank you, that was so much fun. Thank you for spending time with us, raw, real, and rebellious against perfectionism. Shazia, what are we doing next time? Watch this space, we will get back to you.

So, for now, stay flawed, stay fabulous, and keep showing up as you.