Lindsay

It's hard to be vulnerable, especially in the medical field, but if you can't show vulnerability at work are you in the right place for you to thrive? Katie and Lindsay discuss how vulnerability can lead you to where you need to go next as well as how your priorities in life influence your work/life balance.  

Transcript

0:00

Hello, and welcome to my podcast, mindful Midwifery Presents, the Labor Behind Labor. My name is Katie O'Brien, and I've been a nurse midwife since 2007. Midwifery is both one of the most rewarding professions and also simultaneously one of the most demanding. The goal of my podcast is to give listeners an insider's view on what it feels like to be a midwife. This episode features Lindsay. For the recording of her episode, I went to Lindsay's house, which happens to be on a boarding school's campus. Her husband is employed by this school where they met as high schoolers. They have lived for many years on this tranquil nature forward campus, raising their family, while also serving a crucial mentorship role to the kids staying on campus. We recorded this episode in a quiet music room with large windows overlooking the campus. I am excited to share her story with you. She was in a transitional timeframe of her career during this recording, and it gives this episode a in real time perspective of how it feels to be navigating a needed career move.

Katie: 1:04

I'm so glad you're on the show. Lindsay. Thank you for being voluntold, essentially. Thanks

Lindsay: 1:10

Well, thanks for having me.

Katie: 1:13

I think that you have a tremendous ability to keep moving and going and being optimistic, and I've always really appreciated that about you. And you bring people together. So I really wanted you on the show to showcase those aspects of you. but I'd like to start with the beginning, which is how did you decide to become a midwife? Was it one moment? Was it more of a slow burn kind of thing? What, what made you get into this career?

Lindsay: 1:44

Yeah, I think it's probably more of a slow burn. Um, I grew up in a household where my, both of my parents worked in healthcare in some capacity and, I don't know, I just saw them helping other people and thought that the, the science behind it was really interesting, but I always gravitated more towards women, and that part of healthcare. And then over time I. I actually decided I wanted to become an ob, GYNI wanted to be a doctor, so I did all the pre-med stuff and MCAT and so on and so forth. But we had a family friend who was a midwife and she was someone that I was very close to and I remember her talking about her profession and I was just sort of a little bit different. It wasn't kind of like the traditional medical doctor model. And, she actually was in midwifery school, when I was in high school, I think it was. And, She had her varney's midwifery book out. And I remember just like flipping through the textbook and just looking at all the like, really cool pictures of like babies in the belly and the anatomy and I was just sort of like, this is amazing. And she was actually pregnant at the time too, so not only was she, going through the school schooling and talking about it, and, but also she was like literally living it. And so anyway, I kept kind of coming back to that and as I evolved more into figuring out what I wanted to do in college and afterwards, sort of really, and I kept in touch with her and, um, it just became clear like that was the path I was supposed to take. And, and she kind of connected me to some midwife. I remember I lived in New Orleans at the time, after college and there was an a, c and m meeting down there. The American College of Nurse Midwives had one of their yearly meetings and she was down there and there were a bunch of other midwives. And I, we met some of them and I was like, these are my people. I like this. So then after that I, I sort of switched gears and figured out how to make that happen. So it took a long time,'cause I'd already done college the traditional four years. I was in a graduate program in, in New Orleans at Tulane doing my master's in public health. Focusing in maternal and child health. And at that time, that's when

Katie: 3:59

I figured

Lindsay: 4:00

I was gonna. Switch gears.

Katie: 4:03

So did you already have a nursing background when you switched gears? Or you had to do like an accelerated program?

Lindsay: 4:08

Yeah, I had to do an

Katie: 4:09

accelerated program. Oh goodness.

Lindsay: 4:10

I did a lot of

Katie: 4:11

Yeah.

Lindsay: 4:13

like a ridiculous amount of school in my twenties. So essentially I have two bachelor's degrees. I have, so I ambassador my, um, bachelor in arts. I was a Spanish major and did a lot of pre-med courses. And then I got my master's in public health. And then I actually got married, I was living with my husband in new, or my fiance in New Orleans and we moved to Philadelphia and I was able to work at Drexel and get, tuition remission to do a lot of my pre-reqs in order to get into, nursing school, the accelerated program at Penn. And then eventually did midwifery school there too. So I have two master's and two bachelor's degrees.

Katie: 4:54

What do you think? Yeah, that, that's a lot of schooling. And I think that's one of the interesting things about midwives. You talk to midwives and it's always bothered me that people be like, oh, you know, you're so smart. Why didn't you be a doctor? And it's like a lot of midwives have these really interesting backgrounds. And these journeys that are not necessarily straight lines. And so they're actually super educated and it, it's just so reductive to me to be like, why, why, why didn't you just become a doctor?

Lindsay: 5:23

Right. Yeah. No, I, I've definitely heard that before. In fact, that's kind of how I was being pushed by my own family. My own parents were just sort of like, oh, well you could be a midwife, but like. Be a doctor, you could, do that'cause that sort of is viewed in our society as like the highest level of

Katie: 5:42

achievement mm-hmm.

Lindsay: 5:43

I mean? In, in this field. Um, and whatever. I guess in a lot of ways it can be seen that way, but you just have to do what's right for you personally. You know, what resonates best?

Katie: 5:54

I feel like midwifery for most of us is a calling. It's like you wake up one day and you're like. This is not an option. This is what I am supposed to do. And I don't know, not not to speak for OB GYNs, but I don't know that they have the same level a lot of times of this is it, this is the specialty and this is it.

Lindsay: 6:13

Yeah, no, I definitely felt like that's what it was for sure.

Katie: 6:16

Yeah.

Lindsay: 6:17

And, but it's also it's like this pressure'cause you have this feeling in your soul of like the, I was meant to be a midwife and this is how I wanna practice as a midwife. But sometimes your vision of how you wanna practice doesn't always fit in the state you live in or like the practice you're working in or the hospital you're working in or the birth center or whatever. So you have to be able to be flexible in a lot of way, but not lose your vision, you know?

Katie: 6:44

Yeah, lots of resilience. I think our field requires the highest level of resilience When you go as an OB, GYN to a new place, like they understand that patients understand when OB GYN is. Other practitioners understand that other specialties, there's no mystery there really. it's pretty defined, but as a midwife, as you just referenced, you could go to a different state or even a different county in a state, and people don't know what a midwife is. They don't understand the training, which, we don't help ourselves by having a lot of modalities of becoming a midwife.

Lindsay: 7:18

Right, right.

Katie: 7:19

and so you are constantly having to battle just the understanding of who you are, which I think is a really. Big piece of burnout for us and I think you can enter the field feeling very hopeful on that and ready and And then you get to this place where, where it's a burnout level. You just wanna stop explaining. Yeah. Yeah, Just wanna cruise.

Lindsay: 7:44

So I have this thing that I carry around with me to every job and this, I had an instructor in midwifery school. Her name was Janet Lewis. And she gave us a gift at graduation for every, everybody in my class. It was actually a compass. It was a key chain with a compass on it. And she's like, always check in with this every so often. Check in with this compass because your midwifery journey is gonna take lots of twists and turns and only you know what your true north is as a midwife. And just keep this with you to, to just keep yourself grounded and just know if you're in the right place or whatever. And yeah. I I, it's in my drawer at work right now, and sometimes I have to have like, look at it

Katie: 8:27

be like,

Lindsay: 8:28

where are we right now? Yeah.

Katie: 8:29

Yeah.

Lindsay: 8:31

But it's, I've had it for like 13, 14 years.

Katie: 8:34

Mm-hmm. Well, and you know the seasons right? They, people talk about the seasons of life, seasons of your career and where you're at right now might look really different than where you are, in five years from now. You have this kind of narrow view of midwifery, depending upon where you. Became a midwife and you know who you've been around. But, when that view stops working for you, it's like, what do I do? I'm in this super, super specific field and how do I venture and, what changes can I make? And I think that becomes really overwhelming. And initially until you realize actually there's a lot you can do as a midwife. How do you feel like your vision of what a midwife was when you got out of school compared to your vision of what a midwife is now? Is it the same? Is it different?

Lindsay: 9:21

Well, I think what attracted me to the field was the, the ability to be with women, to be very present with women and help them, figure out how to become a mother and how to, and I really liked the low risk helping, being able to recognize the normal, but then also the abnormal and then, referring them to other people. Mm-hmm. And what I realized is that midwifery, the scope of practice is really just so broad and it has like cont and I don't know if it's because of where I work now, and it's very like, can be a very high risk. It's like a very big setting, biggest hospital in the state. The scope is just so broad and depending on where you work, they sort of expect you to practice as far to the edge of the scope and possibly even beyond what, midwives can do, And more than I ever thought I would do and perhaps wanted to do. Um, but so midwives can do a, a lot and it's actually pretty incredible, you know? But when you do a lot of the high risk stuff, then you evolve away from some of the lower risk, just more,

Katie: 10:31

like high touch. Yeah, high

Lindsay: 10:32

touch. Yeah. I had a brief period of time where I worked at, in a birth center and I always said to myself, I love the type of midwife that I am here. I just, there was like, time to spend with patients or with the, with the women and you really could just educate a lot. And, I really love that. And you don't always get that in other settings.

Katie: 10:51

No. for me, actually what I liked at the start of my career is not necessarily what I like now. And that's been kind of surprising. I started in more of that birth center type, practice and really loved it, loved the office like that. And. I have chased that dream of getting back to that type of office care, even started my own, office practice to realize that I actually don't love it anymore.

Lindsay: 11:20

Oh, really?

Katie: 11:20

Yes, I, I, the things that I loved about it before for some of it was the other midwives that were involved in that is not the case'cause I'm just by myself. Um, but it's also, you get really close to patients and that is wonderful. But IF. Feel personally like I'm in this phase of life where my kids are demanding a lot emotionally. And to have to give that to patients as well. It's actually too much right now in my life. And also the nine to five aspect of the office is not, it's not working for me, like it did, in the past. So, so that's been a big change. A big, thing I've learned about myself is that, this thing that I loved and thought that I would always love is not exactly what I love, anymore. And maybe it'll change again, but

Lindsay: 12:11

Yeah. But I think that's, that's okay. We evolve as humans, right? Yeah. Like we evolve over time. And if you think about aren't there, if you look at statistics, people can change careers, up to like six or seven times in their lifetime. And the fact that, you've stayed in women's health and midwifery for so many years, it's only, it only makes sense that you're, evolving and like certain things are working for you better now. Like, your kids are grown, you're grow, they're growing up and they require different things than they did when they were younger. And we just, I think we just have to kind of like figure out what works. Maybe you outgrow certain things that you loved before and that's perfectly fine. I found the same thing with me, yeah, it changes.

Katie: 12:56

Yeah. I said to another midwife, that I was not sure I was gonna do deliveries anymore. And she like gasped and she's like, Katie, this is, this is this, this cannot be, this is just a season of your life. And in fact, it was just a season of my, of my life in the moment. She was right about that. It is funny where we, where we go, but I, but for me, this is such a big piece of the podcast is letting other people know that, that's normal. Like it's normal for us to. Be, deep into our careers or maybe not even so deep. Maybe you just got, out of school two years ago, but you're like, whoa, this doesn't look like I thought it would look like. And, but you don't have to leave the field.

Lindsay: 13:35

You just

Katie: 13:36

have to get creative about, what else could being a midwife look like?'cause we get these really, it's very specific images of a midwife in our head called

Lindsay: 13:44

midwife, right? Like, we're hopping on our bike with our medical bag and going to the homes and putting blankets in the oven, right? That's just not, yeah,

Katie: 13:54

it's, but there's a lot of different ways to midwife. Yeah.

Lindsay: 13:57

there are, and at the end of the day, it's about being with women and helping them through the different stages of their life. And whether it's by educating them, doing their well-woman visits, prenatal care, helping them deliver their babies, helping them with postpartum depression, like so many different things. That's what I love about the field. There's so many different aspects of, of life, that we can help people through.

Katie: 14:23

Well, you had a time recently where you, I mean I, I've been on this kind of similar journey, but, where you were just putting feelers out everywhere and that's one of the things I just loved. And it inspired me to be like, I gotta be like Lindsay, I've gotta just put stuff out there into the universe and, and see what the heck happens., In my memory you were just like almost randomly networking to literally anyone about any aspect that came close to midwifery trying to figure out

Lindsay: 14:50

Yeah. Well first it's so funny you say that because I recently stumbled across a notebook that I had been keeping all these different like contacts, like this person and that, like the public health department, that person in like substance use disorder clinic, like that person. And because I think I have so many different interests, like I,, I went to public health school and I have this kind of broader vision Of healthcare and I love the one, one-on-one stuff, but I also, I have dreams of going abroad and, I speak Spanish, so I like going to, Latin America and helping, educate people there and, helping like a community get healthier because of something like that. So I think about reaching out to those, I don't even know who they would be. So that's why you literally like start, like Haja, Haja gave me some contacts at Penn and I did some cold calls with people and I think they got off the call with me, like, what the heck was that about? Like, why didn't you just call me asking about like, global, I can't remember what department it was. But anyway, I also realized like, well maybe that's not the direction I needed to go in. That wasn't,

Katie: 15:54

or at least right now,

Lindsay: 15:56

But I do have, I do have bigger kind of like pulls, like draws of Traveling abroad or having more, of a broad, broader scale impact. But I don't necessarily always know how to execute that. And it's, I don't think it's the right time in, in life with my children either.'Cause I have three kids, but, but yes, I do tend to like randomly call. Yeah. That there was a period of time. Yeah. Probably like two, three years ago that I

Katie: 16:24

was doing

Lindsay: 16:25

that. Yeah. I was really just, you know what it was Paul Farmer, do you know who that is? He is a, he was a guy who actually had a, like an. Pretty early death. And this is when that happened. It was like three years ago. He was a doctor who did a ton of public health work and, he wrote some incredible books and basically talking about all the, like the work that he did abroad. And he was a real inspiration for me. I remember learning about him in college and then I remember hearing that he died suddenly when he was abroad. helping with like AIDS work or something. I can't remember the specifics, but it was sort of just like a jolt. he reminded me of a time in my life when all that stuff was like really, really important to me. And I was sort of thinking of. Going in a different direction with my career. But, you know, I, I've gone the path of like, sort of the traditional day-to-day, go to the office, go to the hospital type of work, but hearing about him passing reminded me of that other aspect of me. So my wheel started to turn and I started to get restless in the current job where I was, and that's, I started all that outreach and it's still there. It's still, it's still there somewhere. Um, so it's good to have those mentors along the way, or like those people that inspire you, that you, check back with, It's like a person, you know, or whether it's like a person who is, you'll never meet but have read about or, you, admire their work

Katie: 17:53

Well the midwife community is a relatively small community., I feel like we're all two degrees away from each other, so for me, other midwives have been so influential in how I've pivoted or what I've wanted to do. just getting through things. I think it's really cool to bring these aspects of a career that you had lined up because, I think there are a lot of midwives that didn't initially go straight lined to midwifery and then be like, Hey, how do I merge this? You know, how do I merge these two things? It makes total sense. During COVID, that was an interesting time for you and that you have this, public health degree and the public health stuff that was going on at the time, obviously. Mm-hmm. Um, on the forefront. And then, even just how that relates to giving care in the office setting. I remember being angry actually, that you weren't more. Taken into account, on what we should be doing in the office and, our protocols, because I was like, this, this, yeah, she's a midwife, so she's not, the doctor here, but she has more public health than anybody else here. Like, why, why aren't we using that? I think that's one of the frustrating pieces sometimes of being a midwife, being in that middle, middle

Lindsay: 19:08

of left behind. Yeah.

Katie: 19:09

Yeah. People don't realize where you actually have more training.

Lindsay: 19:13

Right.

Katie: 19:14

And I mean, that speaks to even birth actually. Um, but definitely some of the, the degrees that people are bringing in, before they even become a midwife. So in the last two years I have felt,

Lindsay: 19:26

That

Katie: 19:27

I really got to know the glass ceiling of midwifery. And prior to the last two years, I didn't even understand what a glass ceiling was like When women talk about glass ceilings and how they're up against them, and what I've realized is you don't. You don't see a glass ceiling or, and you can't even really understand that until all of a sudden you see it and then you're like, oh my God, I can't get past this ceiling. And I think some of that with women is that we are naturally more prone to being okay with vulnerability. We're more okay, I think, initially with showing how we're feeling and really allowing those feelings to help drive, passions that we have or things that we're advocating for or whatever. And you'd think that in a field like midwifery, where it's mostly women that are midwives, taking care of women, that that would be acceptable and that would be okay to show that and to be passionate and to, be able to have a voice, while you're, Being vulnerable and, and, and what I've realized is it's not like that. Like we are just constantly in the scenario of having to push a lot of that down, let some of that die and learn how to operate within what many ways is a male driven scenario within midwifery, within women's care. It's, it's terrible. It's terrible. And I think it leads to burnout because you can only push those feelings down for so long.

Lindsay: 21:03

Hmm. Yeah. I don't feel like in my current job I can be vulnerable like this in my current setting, I think about how vulnerable I was like in the beginning or how I showed that I was, and I think that just makes you look so weak and, I think it also depends on where you, where you work and like, everything's a little bit different. the current place where I work, it's just the scope of practice is, is very broad. So you, you're expected to practice, at a very, I don't necessarily say high level, but like a very medically, like I'm a midwife, I never wanted to be the midwife, but that, essentially that means like you're practicing very medically and not necessarily, using as much like natural or physiologic. Parts of healthcare maybe perfectly'cause the acuity is higher,. But essentially, that's one aspect you have to practice to, very large, like a broad scope. I almost feel like you're sort of like the soldier that's like marching in line in this like big healthcare system that you just have to continue to march. And if it like feels fine and you're doing great and you're enjoying your work, like it's fine to keep on marching and maybe you're learning new skills and you're loving what you're doing, you're getting paid well, you're getting bonuses, you're doing this and that. this works for a lot of people, but if it doesn't necessarily feel like it fits, completely, there's not really space to express that, you know? And if you do, I think you're seen as sort of weak and a little bit like vulnerable. Fragile. And then different parts of the healthcare team, especially nurses see that and they treat you differently and you really just have to like, develop this very thick skin. And, and that's, it's interesting to encounter it after, practicing for 10 years And I've been in this current setting for two and a half years now and I'm still trying to figure out like if it's the right fit. At my old practice, I had people like you and I had people like our midwifery team. We could be very just, honest and transparent and it wasn't like a competitive atmosphere. It was just very much a sisterhood. And I don't have that in this other setting. I'm in this weird scenario where I am sort of a, a nurse practitioner, but I am a midwife, but I'm not part of the midwife team. So I'm in this sort of interesting. place. In terms of my community and feeling like who can I trust, who can I be honest with? Like, that's, it's hard when you don't have that and you have to push those feelings down. Yeah. You have to, to, to keep on soldiering on. Yeah.

Katie: 23:51

what people don't realize is that when you have these successful midwife teams, which I mean, I've been involved in a number of successful midwife teams, it's actually very curated from the outside. It can look like, oh, this is, you know, just something that spontaneously happened, that you have this like great midwife team, but I would totally counter that. I would say if somebody was going into either wanting to be, a part of a great midwife team or wanting to create a midwife team, you need to know that it is curated. You have to always be thinking about is this midwife right for the team that we are in that's gonna support that vulnerability within the team? And that like sisterhood and I at the place in my life right now as a midwife, that I can be a part of that team. Because I think sometimes too, we have to make decisions, about how we're practicing that are., Not how we would be in other times in our life. And so if you really want that midwife team and that midwife feel and that support, you can find it. But it is curated and it also is fragile actually.

Lindsay: 25:03

Mm-hmm. It's

Katie: 25:04

a fragile thing because if one, part of that team, leaves or, some, the dynamics within how the, the team is able to function change, then, then the whole thing can kind of

Lindsay: 25:17

mm-hmm. All

Katie: 25:17

which we definitely saw. Um,

Lindsay: 25:20

Yeah. It's sad to see people go when they're part of this team, but then there's also the added component of your, like your schedule is gonna change when you're trying to do 24 7 coverage, right? And then someone, a player of that team leaves, and then another one leaves, and then it just is sort of like, oh my gosh, I like we, the smaller number has to, has to fill in to make this function. So that piece has to change too.

Katie: 25:46

The, the field that we chose this 24 7 nature, I think that, some of the specialties that are close, but not exactly midwifery or ob GYN, they, they don't quite get it. Like, you can't not show up for a shift when babies are coming. You know,

Lindsay: 26:06

Yeah. Right. Right. It's

Katie: 26:07

not optional. You can't be like, Hey, we're taking a holiday. I need you to just not, okay. We we're just gonna need to reschedule you. And even pregnancy itself is, is a very timely thing. You could have a woman that's really healthy and then eight hours later she's not.

Lindsay: 26:23

Mm-hmm. Um,

Katie: 26:24

so this idea that you could just even have a whole weekend where you're not taking care of people, that that doesn't exist for us. It's not a reality we have, and the pressure that that puts on a team is really difficult. And on a hospital, and I think a, a big piece of where we're at in this country with health, with, women's healthcare is, is part of that, that, it is a 24 7 job and you can't change the dynamics of that, that, that that cannot be changed. And you couple that with the fact that a lot of the people taking care, a lot of OBGYNs and, a lot of midwives have. Children or parents that they're taking care of or whoever, and so they're in this place of, having a lot in their home lives that are, that is really challenging. This idea that you're just 24 7. When I look back on like my mentor, and that generation of midwives, I would say from about like early or about eighties and, and, past, if you were a midwife, it was like calling in the sense of like you were becoming a nun. You know, you, you were gonna give up, being married, you were gonna give up, having children, like this is what you do. And I still see, some midwives practicing like that, that are, in their like seventies. Sixties, seventies. But the midwives of the generations below that. Or most of us are not coming in with that mentality. Most of us are not saying that, Hey, this is gonna be my whole life. And, but I think we still have that same heart pool, you know, that same like, this is what women's healthcare should be, but the reality of how to combine that vision of what you want it to be for that family and that woman with the fact that the demand that it's gonna have on you, I think that is really, really challenging for, for us as midwives. I think that a lot of us struggle with that. Yeah. All the

Lindsay: 28:25

And I think that's why a lot of people leave the field. Mm-hmm. Because they, they realize that they're never gonna get the schedule that's gonna be family friendly or the schedule that's going to work, that's not gonna burn them out because like you said, it's 24 7 coverage and demands in the office. So it's just, there needs to be, you need to work and, but people who realize they can't achieve that with their own family demands, they, they leave. So that's, that's been a always from day one, been a challenge for me. I, I became a midwife when my kids were, maybe my two boys were, I think four and two, or maybe five and three. I can't remember. And thankfully I worked at a place that you had defined hours. So it wasn't like I took on an entire weekend of call or something like that, that just like, I feel like that would've sent my husband's amazing, but it would've like, sent him over the edge. And he used to do 24 hour calls with the two boys, and then I even had a third, we have, I have a daughter and he did, long shifts with the three of them, like giving her, breast milk bottles overnight and then going to work the next day. And it's a lot on, a partner for sure.

Katie: 29:36

a lot.

Lindsay: 29:37

So that's always, that for my entire career has always been kind of like, what is the ideal schedule? This balance of having a schedule that works for my family. Being fulfilled, in my work, feeling like I'm doing a good job and, delivering the care to, to women and their families, in the way that I want to. But then also showing my family that they always come first. And maybe it hasn't always looked like that, but I've always tried for that to be the order of my priorities. Like I've always wanted my family to come first

Katie: 30:10

I've always felt that if I surveyed a bunch of midwives, none of them would say that work life balance exists.

Lindsay: 30:18

You know, like

Katie: 30:19

It's a balance in the sense of like, one's rising, why the other's lowering. But it's not a, okay, like this is all gonna be gravy.

Lindsay: 30:26

This is

Katie: 30:27

all gonna be, a line of balance. It's, yeah, it's not like that. And I've always said, I think you could really relate to this. I, well, I haven't always said this, actually, this is a new thing I've realized about myself, in very concrete words. I am on the spectrum of midwives. Absolutely. In the home birth midwife group, philosophically. But when it comes to schedule, I am in the complete opposite group of schedule me hours. You know, I want, I want hours, I want to find times. I actually don't care how long those shifts necessarily are, but I care that there're shifts, you know?

Lindsay: 31:02

have an end beginning and an end,

Katie: 31:04

And they have a beginning and an end. And I've worked in it for years when it wasn't like that. And that just, it doesn't jive with my personality. But the problem is that when you get, more into the schedule heavy, like I can control my schedule. I have a set schedule that. Usually starts chipping away at that philosophy of natural home birth It just is because of the dynamics of, malpractice and acuity and, and how many people you have to, take care of to be able to justify a schedule So I, I, I definitely feel like that has been really hard. I mean, it's helpful to know that about myself,

Lindsay: 31:44

Mm-hmm. But it

Katie: 31:44

also really hard to operate within it.

Lindsay: 31:46

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like right now I actually have a pretty great schedule where I always have. I have an admin day on Tuesday, half a day, which basically, I'm home. And then I work in the office three days. And then I have another day during the week where I I'm at the hospital in some capacity, but not on labor and delivery. And then weekends are off. But the thing I'm not doing on a regular basis is deliveries. And I pick up per diem shifts at, the place I used to work, which, and I love that place, that setting. But with the other demands of life and just sort of how the schedule works out, I don't have a ton of shifts that I'm picking up. And that aspect of being a midwife, like being present for deliveries, labor, postpartum, I really miss that. And so, like, like you're saying, like nothing is ever perfectly aligned. Like while I'm feeling like I'm actually pretty present for my family, there's the piece at Labor and Delivery that I'm not, I'm not. There. So I really miss that. And that part of like my midwife heart is sort of I don't know, I wouldn't say crushed, but it just feels like it's sort of drifting. That, that work feels the most meaningful to me, being, being in those delivery rooms and helping mom, helping a woman transition to motherhood and all of that. I love that. So that part feeds my soul and I'm not doing that as much, so, you know, like kind of how you took a little break from it. Who knows what eventually will evolve.

Katie: 33:13

I think the break I took was actually really good for me. it's weird because I had already decided that I greatly preferred being in the hospital compared to the office. So in some senses it was strange that I took a break from all of it. But it was really helpful. I rounded for two years, so I was just doing Monday through Friday rounding,, and I love rounding. I love postpartum rounding so much. A lot of people don't like it, but I feel like for me, I get to see when you're rounding well on a postpartum woman, you get to kind of put the whole package together for her and present a more stable scenario moving forward, and it oftentimes is the last touch point for her. Women and their families with healthcare for a while because a lot of people don't come back to this pars department visit. So for me it's just such a crucial time and it was really nice to take a total step back from drama, um, of the delivery

Lindsay: 34:13

there is

Katie: 34:14

There is drama. There's so much drama, right? And, and, and a lot of ways I like it most of the time, but I think I had gotten burnt out from it. Um, and so to take a step back from the office drama and the hospital and, delivery drama and just focus on setting people up, it was really healing for me. And then that, came to an end because that was no longer gonna happen, that they were just gonna have a rounding person and then I had to, decide what I wanted to do. And actually in that time, I had kind of developed a lot of fear surrounding going back into deliveries, actually not the skills, it was more just the emotional toll of it actually. And I had to. Get over it, basically. It didn't take long. I mean, and same thing for you, you know, or anybody else that, that steps out for a little while when you've been doing deliveries for a really long time. It is like riding a bike. Like you'll go back to it and then be like, oh, okay. It took me like two shifts, you know, to feel comfortable. It's not long.

Lindsay: 35:14

Oh yeah. I'm stepping right back

Katie: 35:15

Right, exactly.'cause it's muscle memory to some extent, and you've been doing it for so long. But yeah, getting back, I also, I don't know if you felt this way. I have a feeling most midwives probably would if they really thought back on it, but patients were really angry and their families during COVID about everything. Mm-hmm. I felt like the level of anger and mistrust and fear that they had in the system and isolation, that actually really burned me out as a midwife. It, it really did. I. Uh, just being, it's not even like they were, like, I felt like I was particularly on the receiving end personally. It was just trying to, be the middle person between this system that they feared and didn't wanna be a part of. And trying to like, advocate and, and smooth things over and be like, no, we're okay. We're here to help you. Like

Lindsay: 36:12

I

Katie: 36:13

able to do it, but it really was so emotionally exhausting for

Lindsay: 36:17

for me. Yeah. It's like you have to justify that you're trying to do something good for them, right. And they can trust you. Yeah, exactly. Right. I remember that.

Katie: 36:23

And especially when you're in a big practice, which we were at the time, where they might not know you, it, that piece was really hard. And, for these like home birth midwives or small practices during COVID, you, like, you still had that good relationship with patients, but we were in a big practice so they didn't necessarily know us ahead of time. And, that was really hard for me. And interestingly, during that break, I had those, those two years of rounding by the time I came back that had all. Left. And it was very surprising to me on some level actually. I was like, oh wow, it feels like it did before. And that was really wonderful. So I'm glad I took that time to kind of heal from it and come back to it. I think that we're in the middle of everything as midwives. We're in the middle of sometimes obstetricians and nurses and their, feelings about how a patient should have care in between the patient and the obstetrician in between the system

Lindsay: 37:24

mm-hmm. And the patient,

Katie: 37:25

You know, and we're these like always the middle person always trying to like, have the ability to merge those two things that sometimes frankly, I don't think can be merged. And for me, I've realized that's the achilles heel for me as a midwife. That is what does me in. And the more I get put in the middle of that, the worse I, I, I do.

Lindsay: 37:48

And you definitely have it. It's more at the hospital for sure.

Katie: 37:51

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Lindsay: 37:53

I found that.'cause at the, the office, you can kind of do your thing, work with your MA if you have an MA and you know the patient and that's about it. And so it's that dynamic. But yes, the hospital is very much, the nurse is calling you, you're calling the doctor, you know, so on and so forth. Like you said, it can be exhausting to be the, the, the middle person. Yeah.

Katie: 38:18

And I mean, I love my OB counterparts. Like I don't want them to, stop being present. I've never been a midwife that's like, oh, we don't need them. No, we need them. We, but you know, sometimes it's just being in the middle of that.

Lindsay: 38:31

It's like, let me give you the number, call that number instead. Let me, let me forward this call.

Katie: 38:36

The answering service. Right,

Lindsay: 38:38

exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

Katie: 38:41

And then these, softer skills that we bring to the table. Which on a side note, I think is disappearing a little bit from how we're training midwives, which I'd like to see come back. Um, but these softer skills of like how to, get, babies that are in bad positions,

Lindsay: 38:55

you know, in

Katie: 38:56

better positions, how do we labor them so that they won't have a C-section? That kind of stuff. I think some providers, other, and nurses, they understand that we have those skills, but not always, you

Lindsay: 39:10

know? Mm-hmm. you're,

Katie: 39:11

you're struggling with that.

Lindsay: 39:12

Yeah. Right.

Katie: 39:14

Where do you feel like you are right now in your journey? Do you feel like you are, so it sounds like you're prioritizing your children.

Lindsay: 39:21

Yes. Yes.

Katie: 39:24

Do you feel like you're in a okay place with that decision right now? Or do you feel like you're still struggling with it?

Lindsay: 39:32

Well, I look at my children and I'm proud of where they are. So I feel like in that respect, I feel like they, um, what I'm doing is okay, and then I think like, oh, well, if I were having a different schedule, they probably would still be just the same, whatever. But, I think in terms of being a mother and raising them that, i'm happy with that. And I really enjoy my office days that I work. I work three days in the same location. It's very close to home and it's a small office. The way the office works is that if you see a patient for their new OB visit, then they are pretty much seeing you for their whole time.

Katie: 40:09

So,

Lindsay: 40:09

Mm-hmm. Sense. I love that. I love that getting to know the patients better and really just the continuity of care and, and forming relationships with patients. So I love that part of it. And then I'm helping establish this new, access to care at the, hospital. Sort of like an in-between and like emergency ob slash office, so you get appointments quicker. So I'm, helping to onboard, OB patients and some GYN patients. So it's interesting to be part of something new there. Something increasing access for patients. And then I'm working in the OB emergency department, which has been interesting. I did do that at my old job too, but this is just more like just doing that versus triage as well as labor. It's a long shift. 12 hours of just doing that and the acuity can be pretty high. So it's definitely a learning curve. But in terms of the schedule, it's working. Mm-hmm.

Katie: 41:03

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay: 41:03

So I am having to push down some of those. Like I know this doesn't fit a hundred percent with what I really wanna be doing, but it works in a lot of other aspects.

Katie: 41:15

We are lucky in Delaware right now in that Delaware is a state that is actually pretty as a state midwife friendly. The hospitals within Delaware, some of them not so much. But the state itself is, and so we are lucky that we actually have the ability to stress about this,

Lindsay: 41:37

Right. Versus like, can I get a job? Exactly. Yeah.

Katie: 41:39

Can I get a job? Or if you can get a job, is, is there only one type of job? Right. You know? Um, so I am thankful for that. I was able to, open. A prenatal postpartum, GYN practice, just office. Because the state allows that we're independent practitioners here, and I could have even done deliveries as a independent practitioner. So I'm, I am very thankful for those opportunities. So I think that sometimes though, when you have those opportunities, it's more of a dangling carrot than it would be in a place that you don't have those opportunities and you're just like, oh, this is just, this is all I can do. Right. You know? Um, so you do have that constant, back to that. Well, philosophically I'm a home birth midwife, but schedule wise, uh, then the other side all the way,

Lindsay: 42:29

Mm-hmm.

Katie: 42:30

um, so it's always a, a journey. I think we have to be careful with ourselves that we're not. Constantly reminding ourselves of that, that we try to stay okay with where we're at when we're at it for a little while. Right. Not indefinitely, you

Lindsay: 42:45

I think it's important to Check in with yourself often, just to, maybe not, not too often, because

Katie: 42:52

there's a

Lindsay: 42:52

be a problem where you're just like, let your mind rest. Just be in it for a while, like, let it, let the dust settle. Right. But I think that it's important to continue to check in and just be like, is this the right fit?'Cause I've definitely, over the past, the whole probably a whole career, but I would say the last two and a half years just really being like, Does this feel right? I, I don't really know, but, um, yeah, it's working enough. But don't lose

Katie: 43:20

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay: 43:20

Don't, it's not, it's not worth it to lose yourself and trying to make something work, you know?

Katie: 43:26

Yeah. I had that moment actually. You were the person that I was on the phone with for a big part of that moment. Um, for me that moment. Was solidified when I was sobbing hysterically on the way to a wedding. Okay.

Lindsay: 43:42

And

Katie: 43:42

all through the wedding, it

Lindsay: 43:46

a

Katie: 43:46

family

Lindsay: 43:47

wedding.

Katie: 43:49

I actually had a couple family weddings I sobbed through for various reasons, but, um,

Lindsay: 43:53

I love that you cry. I love that you let yourself cry.'cause I'm always okay to cry around you too.

Katie: 43:58

Always. Always. And a lot of patients do.

Lindsay: 44:01

Maybe

Katie: 44:01

how I've gotten burned out. But yeah, for me that was the moment I, I feel like when I get close to transitions that there's a part of me that just knows it's coming and starts mourning what has been like deeply, deeply mourning and um, and then I realize, okay, well. I can't stay where I'm at because it's no longer serving me. But it is hard, it's really hard to accept that and then to deal with the consequences of those decisions. And, um, I think the most challenging piece of this last transition for me was I really felt like I lost my sense of professional intuition, like I always felt guided in this career. And for the first time ever, I, I didn't, and it was really startling. I think for a lot of midwives, we have a deep connection with our intuition. It's part of midwifery, I think, for most people. And, um, when you lose that, it, it feels like you lost a best friend.

Lindsay: 45:08

Well, it's interesting you say that because I think that's kind of what I struggle with Yeah. In this, yeah, in this job. I've kind of lost that. Like, who am I? Yeah. Like I don't really fit in the system. Mm-hmm. But like, it's working for a lot of other things, but yeah. And I don't know if, yeah, just, it's hard when you lose that and I'm, and it probably will come back, but we're like two and a half years in, and some days I feel like I have it more than others. Um, I'm, I'm working with a student, for the first time and I was a little at, since being here, and I used to work with students a lot and I loved, you know, mentoring midwives and, and I think I was a little nervous because I was like, who am I? Like what am I doing? Like what am I gonna guide this person in, you know, in their, in their journey. Like, can I do that? I, I feel like I've sort of changed and was sort of like, flailing a little bit, although I'm really good at having a great outward

Katie: 46:16

You are,

Lindsay: 46:17

You are,

Katie: 46:18

you are.

Lindsay: 46:18

It doesn't, I definitely, certainly show that vulnerability earlier on in this, this particular setting. But for the most part I'm very good about just like, Hey, I'm, I'm cool as a cucumber. Everything's fine. And on the inside, it's, it's not always fine. And then of course, I let it all out at home. Yeah. But, but yeah, I really was sort of struggling, like, how, how's this gonna go? Like, am I gonna be a good mentor for this person? You know, I don't, I don't, I've sort of, I don't know who I am right now in a lot of ways, but it's, it's actually been really good. And it's actually reminded me of a lot of, just that intuition and just like, I still am a good teacher. I still have things I can, Share and give. And it's kind of cool'cause she works at the birth center too, as well as like another hospital setting. So she brings a lot of interesting, background to just being a student.

Katie: 47:09

I think students can be so healing. If it's a good personality match, and you are an excellent, I mean, you are the person that can bring people together, Lindsay.

Lindsay: 47:21

At some point I was that person

Katie: 47:23

you still are. for me, this podcast was actually the first thing in two and a half years that gave me that sense of, okay, I'm on the right path finally, because I think I was really missing the mentorship. I was missing the midwifery, the midwifery connection we have, And so this has been very, very healing for me. But, I know you'll, you'll get it back, but it feels really bleak in the moment.

Lindsay: 47:53

Yeah, and a lot of my days are just fine. But certain days I feel a little bit soulless in my midwifery journey, but, um, maybe it's okay to step away from it. That's a lot of pressure to put on your, it, it, no, it is, and I do realize that like I have a lot of interests in life and I, you know, I like to travel. I like to, just do other things. So midwifery I've learned, especially early on in your career, it's like all consuming and you wanna like masser everything and and then as time, as life goes on, you have to figure out ways to like have your world expand and maybe your career becomes smaller, smaller aspect of it. But, I'm still the type of person that needs to have a fulfilling kind of career, you Well,

Katie: 48:39

and I also think it's so important actually for students to see the struggles that we have because they're about to get into a field that is going to be that way. So it's not real otherwise on some level. I remember being in midwifery school, like I remember this moment like it was yesterday, and thinking to myself, holy hell, what did I just get into? This is a career of constant advocacy. I don't think I'm this strong, you know? And I was like, why did I do this? But I was far too into it by that point to realize it. But it has been true. It is, very challenging and, But I think students need to see that because they need to see that you still get up and you still go to work, you know, and you still figure it out, and you still have a family that you know, you're taking care of, and you're, this journey is not totally linear.

Lindsay: 49:29

Mm-hmm.

Katie: 49:30

You're gonna do all kinds of twisting because it's life and you still have to like, get through life.

Lindsay: 49:36

Right,

Katie: 49:37

But that's my hope anyway. How do you think your midwifery colleagues have helped you survive your career? Like, how do you think they have, helped you get through some of these moments?

Lindsay: 49:50

I think when I was at the old practice, the practice that I was at for 10 years, right out of middle midwife free school, so when I joined it was me and one other midwife. And that midwife was certainly a mentor for me, but, physicians were actually really. Great mentors too., They had a different scope of practice, but were really just, supportive in like me learning and building my confidence and asking questions and, to this day I feel like I can trust any of them, And then as time evolved in that older, in that last practice, we had a midwife team of it grew to what, like eight midwives?

Katie: 50:26

think it we had nine or

Lindsay: 50:28

10. Nine. Oh, actually we had nine. Yeah. Okay. Nine. And it was like an amazing, as you said before, we, it was like a curated group of, of women that had pretty similar philosophies in how they wanted to be a midwife and care for women. And just so much trust and, like it's very rare to be in a, A medical setting maybe, where you just really are like, supportive of one another. A hundred percent. There's really no, nobody was like talking badly about each other. There was just like a really beautiful, um, yeah, sisterhood. I keep coming back to that and I'm still close with a lot of you. So you guys really have, yeah, been a huge part of just support. We've gone through tough stuff, like tough shifts, tough stuff in the practice, the know, Court stuff, just, which just happens in, in, just this field, right? Like there's, there's just, it's a risky field. So we were all there for each other, which was incredible. And then over time we've just gotten to know each other better, our families and, and here we are now. We don't even work together. We're doing this podcast. But I just think that like, you guys definitely keep me grounded. Like if I ever had a bad day, I could call you up. Like those, first few months at that, at this job, this newer job, I would call you and just literally like SOB on the phone. And it's important to have that.

Katie: 51:54

It is, this was a driving force for the podcast for me, was envisioning this midwife that's out there, maybe not even able to work around any other midwives, maybe working around, supportive team members otherwise. But there's just something about knowing other midwives and being a part of other midwives that they really connect with you on such a deep level and, hoping that this gets heard by those people, and that they feel like, oh, okay, I have a bit of a connection,

Lindsay: 52:25

Yeah. And my current job, I don't have any midwife colleagues. I have, I work with a nurse practitioner'cause she's wonderful. I worked with two doctors. They're, they're, they're great. Um, but it's very, it is different. It's a different type of, support. And I have one other friend out in California. Yes. We were in midwife free school to,

Katie: 52:43

She doesn't know it yet, but she's on my list. I'll, we'll go out to California and she'll be on the podcast.

Lindsay: 52:49

She'll love it. She'll love it. She'll be great. So she's been great too. So you just need to have those people in your life, right?

Katie: 52:56

Yes, yes. Absolutely. When you think about, or when I thought about podcasting and what my hopes are for it, eventually you can do all kinds of things, with podcasting and, and one of the things you can do is, start holding get togethers. Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, how fun would that be?

Lindsay: 53:12

Mm-hmm.

Katie: 53:13

Long term plans.

Lindsay: 53:14

Anyway.

Katie: 53:16

What gives you hope about the field of midwifery?

Lindsay: 53:18

I hope people can continue to train to become midwives. And, I hope that the, the art of midwifery doesn't, die down. So people like us who really believe in it like that gives me hope, that people will pass it on And hopefully schools will continue to thrive and survive. But it's definitely a part of healthcare that is, important. And a lot of midwives are trained as nurse practitioners, but it's a different way of I don't know, just a different way of practicing.

Katie: 53:52

Yeah. I do worry that some of, our softer skills are not so procedure driven, skills are not getting carried. Through to, midwifery schools as much as they used to be. Which I think is, in part because midwives have so much more diversity now within the field. Mm-hmm. it is a good, bad thing. You ha you have so many more opportunities as midwives. You don't even have to do just low risk. A lot of us are practicing in a high risk scenario. But some of those skills that you utilize, when patients are going natural or it's just a, an not a medical driven model. I, I don't know that that always gets carried on, unfortunately. So, but it's still there. You can still, people just have to

Lindsay: 54:40

And it actually gives me hope that, that the, the scope of practice, although it can be uncomfortable for some people, since maybe you've entered the field for different reasons, like it does give me hope that the scope of practice is broadening because you can be involved in so many aspects of women's healthcare, you know, not just deliveries. Mm-hmm. You can be involved in abortion care, you can be involved in post-menopausal bleeding, you can be involved in, contraception. You can be involved in PCOS and you can use those midwifery skills that you have to help a patient, get through whatever issue.

Katie: 55:15

Yeah. I've always enjoyed, taking care of. Higher risk women actually, because I feel like they also need that midwife touch. They really need, maybe even more so sometimes the education and the, somebody just listening to them.

Lindsay: 55:30

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie: 55:32

which I think is, just a core of midwifery, just listening.

Lindsay: 55:36

Mm-hmm. And I'll say, I work with a lot of, younger doctors and, all different types of nurse practitioners and, they all do a really pretty good job of, of many of them listening and educating and, but the cool thing about the hospital where I work, I don't do deliveries there now, but they have midwives that teach residents and they are teaching them how to, do natural birth and deliveries and things like that. So the skills are being passed along, we think of Carrie Campbell, like she's a, she's an awesome doctor. Yeah. And she was mentored by midwives her facility.

Katie: 56:11

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, it's true. I, I have also enjoyed that. And I do think that's a very positive thing that's happening when midwives are involved in, residents, care, the hospital that you're doing, we're both doing PN at, has er residents that have really started to come through. And I've really enjoyed it for a couple reasons. One of which is I hate triage. It's my least favorite part of midwifery.

Lindsay: 56:34

I

Katie: 56:35

don't think that piece is ever gonna

Lindsay: 56:36

change. I think you would love where I work on forever, other Friday, don't you?

Katie: 56:39

Um, yeah. And some midwives love triage so much, you

Lindsay: 56:43

telling me about your friend that loved it. Yeah. It's like I know too off the

Katie: 56:47

top of my head that have love. I mean, it's like their favorite thing, but it is not my favorite thing. And so the ER residents are just, I mean, that's their, that's what they

Lindsay: 56:55

love. Yeah.

Katie: 56:56

so they

Lindsay: 56:57

Just like, this is what I'm gonna be

Katie: 56:58

in

Lindsay: 56:58

Yeah.

Katie: 56:59

Yeah. Um, and at, right, exactly. And so they get started on that and then we kind of, you know, merge our knowledge of the obstetrics and the ER

Lindsay: 57:08

Mm-hmm.

Katie: 57:08

Um, and then, they get to see midwives in action, which is gonna actually be a little bit more similar when you think about it. Same thing when you have family docs, that are going through their residency with midwives. Their scope's actually gonna look more similar to a midwife most of the time than it is an obstetrician, actually, because they're not. Typically doing

Lindsay: 57:28

Mm-hmm.

Katie: 57:29

So I think in a lot of ways, and also I think that midwives and family practice especially often go into those things for the same reasons. Mm-hmm. Similar philosophies.

Lindsay: 57:39

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um,

Katie: 57:40

Um, so I, I think that can be really actually a wonderful thing that's, that's been more recent. And I think it brings more respect to the field of midwifery

Lindsay: 57:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Understanding it. Yeah. So.

Katie: 57:53

When you get that call from the ER

Lindsay: 57:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right,

Katie: 57:57

Which actually our hospital that we had been working at, when we both started there, the midwives were taking. Calls from the ER and

Lindsay: 58:06

And I, I

Katie: 58:06

to have to go down to the ER and that was always hilarious to me. So hilarious. But then they stopped doing that for a while. But now, the, these residents are going through and they're really experiencing the midwives there. And I

Lindsay: 58:18

think it would be a much

Katie: 58:19

more collaborative conversation now than it was when we first started.

Lindsay: 58:23

Yeah. So.

Katie: 58:25

Yeah, I just have this great memory of, I actually have two great memories of going down to the er. One was

Lindsay: 58:31

when you were in the other practice, right? Yes. Okay.

Katie: 58:33

Oh yeah. Yeah. It was

Lindsay: 58:34

I was like, I don't remember doing that. Yeah. You had maybe we never did. No,

Katie: 58:37

can't remember it. It had already, been decided by the time I think I got to the practice we were at that, together, that that was just not a good plan, but it was always hilarious. The one time they thought this woman was complete and she was pushing and she was closed. Oh,

Lindsay: 58:52

Oh, okay.

Katie: 58:54

and then the other time I went down, she had had a baby in the hallway and I go into the room and they have her hooked up to telemetry. They have, an IV started their teamwork approaching this and nobody has checked her bottom in any way, shape or form. She still had a placenta there. They weren't paying attention to it at all. And I'm like, but she's on telemetry.

Lindsay: 59:17

Thank God. Thank God. Oh

Katie: 59:22

You know, it's funny times.

Lindsay: 59:24

Yeah.

Katie: 59:24

So if you were to give advice, to somebody that was considering becoming a midwife or somebody that was in midwifery school currently. What would you say to them?

Lindsay: 59:39

I would say to make sure that you know the field. There's so many different ways of being involved in midwifery, as a, as a profession. And your idea of what you think you might be doing might be very different than what you can actually practice. So educate yourself try to, shadow people in an out, out of hospital experience or setting like a birth center or like a home birth midwife. And then, try to spend time in a, a busy hospital and just kind of like see what feels right for you. And maybe you already know that because you were a labor and delivery nurse or whatever, or you had your baby at a birth center or something like that. Really kind of like get a pulse on all the different ways that you can be a midwife, what you wanna do. Where you wanna practice and what you're able to do in those states. So like being a midwife in Delaware, where, our reproductive rights are very well supported and it's a very progressive state. It looks very different than practicing in Texas. It's very different. So you can't do a lot of the, you can't provide abortion care in Texas like you can in Delaware, if that's what you wanna do. So learn the field in that way. And then also kind of think about your life, the bigger picture of your life. Like what are your, what are your goals? Do you want to have a partner and get married? Do you want to be a mother, or have a child? And how is that gonna level? What type of parent do you wanna be and how is that all gonna work together? That was the most important for me. You already heard me earlier kinda say what my list of priorities were in life. Family being first and just trying to make it all work out. And maybe, if you're 24 years old and you're in midwifery school, you have no idea. But these are just things to think about because that, that's what keeps you in the profession longer. And it helps prevent burnout and it constantly helps you check in with your compass, right? And trying to figure out if you're on the right path and doing the right thing and all the different parts of your life are balanced.

Katie: 1:01:44

Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what would you say to your colleagues out there that might not have. The midwife network, that we have and are struggling, with where they're at in their career right now. What is like veneer the, the piece that has kind of kept you going?

Lindsay: 1:02:06

Um, well, I think it's important to have those people and try to, try to reach out to people maybe that you've lost contact with. Like, I remember, I don't keep super close ties with my, my midwifery class, which is kind of a funny thing. But I remember somebody reached out last year through a Facebook group that we had created, and she was struggling. She was just like, guys, you know, it was like post pandemic and she'd been doing the full scope midwifery care for a long time. She has two young kids and just kind of struggling with what she. The direction she was taking. She admitted she was getting burned out, and so she basically took the initiative to reach out to us, to, to reconnect. So there's always gonna be people, whether it's old colleagues, whether it's, an old, instructor that you had, a preceptor that you had, classmates that you had, they're always there. And it's just a matter of like being honest and vulnerable with people and kind of like letting down that guard, checking in with yourself, being honest with yourself Because it's like not fun if you feel like you're like soldiering through and like suffering in your work and dreading going to work every day. Right. It's, it's just not,

Katie: 1:03:15

and you can create or attend like a c and m

Lindsay: 1:03:19

Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah.

Katie: 1:03:21

or just start your own informal network. I mean, we, we did, we've done that at times

Lindsay: 1:03:26

sure. Yeah. Yeah, definitely also be open to other aspects of midwifery. I think most people think, it always involves birth and it always involves something in the hospital, but like we talked about before, there's so many different ways you can, use

Katie: 1:03:40

yourself, midwife,

Lindsay: 1:03:41

can midwife. Yeah, for sure.

Katie: 1:03:43

might be my tagline.

Lindsay: 1:03:44

There's so many different

Katie: 1:03:44

many different ways you

Lindsay: 1:03:45

there really are. Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm gonna be doing a course for coloscopy soon. I didn't think I would be doing that, but it's part of, it's needed in my job, so, oh, it's so needed. Actually,

Katie: 1:03:57

women get really anxious about, approaching that. So I think,

Lindsay: 1:04:00

um, mm-hmm.

Katie: 1:04:02

I've, I've known a couple midwives throughout my career that have done colonoscopies and I've tried to send people to them because I think they, they nurse it finesse it a little bit more,

Lindsay: 1:04:13

Yeah. Yeah. So there's lots of possibilities.

Katie: 1:04:16

Well, thank you so much for being on the show,

Lindsay: 1:04:19

Thank you Katie. Thanks for doing this. And you're always an innovator. You're always evolving and just being creative and I think you're awesome.

Katie: 1:04:28

Well, I hope others, take that and run with that too, because that's my goal.

Lindsay: 1:04:33

Yeah. Just keep going to your sound bath. Yes,

Katie: 1:04:37

yes. All the things. Thanks, Lindsay. All right,

Lindsay: 1:04:40

All right, thanks Katie.

1:04:41

I hope you have enjoyed this episode of Mindful Midwifery Present Labor Behind Labor with my guest, Lindsay. Since the recording of this episode, Lindsay has found her way back to deliveries at the hospital where she first worked. She has maintained an office connection with her previous employer, and she is feeling more balanced in the skills she is using. In two weeks, I will be sharing Hodges episode. We will be discussing how standing up for what you believe in can take many forms, how limitations can inspire innovation, and how to determine if a particular job is a good fit during an interview. I look forward to sharing it with you.