Two New Beginnings: Jenna

What happens when the midwife becomes the patient?

Katie O'Brien sits down with Jenna — a newly minted midwife and an even newer mom — to find out. With 10-week-old Celeste in tow (and occasionally on the breast), Jenna unpacks what no clinical rotation could have prepared her for: the sheer, humbling, beautiful chaos of the postpartum fourth trimester.

Turns out, knowing about postpartum swelling and C-section recovery is a lot different from living it. Knowing that cluster feeding is normal doesn't make 4 a.m. any shorter. And knowing that new moms are always late to their appointments? Well — now she really knows.

But Jenna came prepared. Doulas. Classes. Freezer meals. A husband who learned the difference between input and output. A mother-in-law who's a massage therapist. A community that showed up so Jenna could sit down.

The conversation expands into something bigger: a field that asks its caregivers to pour endlessly from cups they're never given time to refill. Katie and Jenna make the case — gently, persistently, from lived experience — that taking your maternity leave is clinical practice. That modeling sustainable midwifery is patient care. That the bravest thing a midwife can sometimes do is say: not yet. I'm still becoming.

BTW Celeste approved this episode. She didn't say so, but she stayed on mic for the whole thing.

This episode is best paired with coconut water (a stable of hydration support for Jenna)

Transcript

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0:01

Hello, and welcome to my podcast, mindful Midwifery Presents, the Labor Behind Labor. My name is Katie O'Brien, and I've been a nurse midwife since 2007. Midwives have tremendous pressure to show up to their work every day as their best selves. We must show up despite bad weather, bad days, or bad situations. The goal of my podcast is to highlight this challenging world and give listeners an insider's view on what it feels like to be a midwife tasked with being your best self, both professionally and personally. For this episode, I'm really excited to have two guests, one of which is quite new to the world. At the time of this recording, Jenna had recently had a baby girl named Celeste. I knew it would make for a unique episode to capture a midwife that was simultaneously going through being a new midwife and a new mom. So both mom and baby hung out with me in their home to talk about the joys and challenges of handling two of life transitions at once. Jenna has given a great example of how to prepare your family for a new addition and how to prepare yourself for the unexpected. Let's get started.

Katie 1:06

I'm really excited to welcome you to the podcast and this is my first podcast with two people technically on it. I've got both you and your beautiful daughter, Celeste. Yes. So if you hear any baby noises, it's intentional

Jenna 1:22

She's hanging out with us. She just begged to be on the podcast.

Katie 1:27

Yes. I think that's where we need to be. When you have a new baby, everything has to just accommodate that, and it should and it's great. So

Jenna 1:38

Yes, it does. It is great. I think before when I was pregnant, I was like, oh, like this isn't baby friendly, or this is baby friendly, like this is what you do postpartum. But now it's like, I need a tomato for the recipe. So we're going to the store. You're coming or we're going to the market. Everything is baby friendly basically if you make it so.

Katie 1:59

Yeah. Yeah. Right now, you're, you're breastfeeding and, and talking on a podcast, and that's just how it needs to be and how it should be and Great. All of the things,

Jenna 2:10

And all the things.

Katie 2:11

Thanks. And we're better for it if we allow it. What do you think your most surprising aspect was from, being in this birthing world and then becoming a parent? Was there something that like, particularly surprised you that you had had maybe a misconception about or maybe just a different idea? Yeah. Or maybe no thoughts on and you were like, oh my God, this is this big piece that I was missing.

Jenna 2:36

Yeah. Well, for one, I think what one thing that surprised me was how. Much I think the world expects of postpartum moms and parents, which shouldn't have been that surprising, but I think as like a midwife in the office, I'm like, oh, like I saw this patient all the time. I can't wait for her to come in and come for her postpartum mental health check-in and all that stuff. And then when it was time for mine, I'm like, okay, I gotta pack the diaper bag. I gotta have X, Y, and z. I have to like, plan out the amount of time, but what if she has a blow up? It was so hard just like getting there, like getting anywhere. That's has a time on it. And you know, that feels obvious, but when you were, when I was in that feeling, I was like, this is really hard. This is really exhausting. So I think when I go back, it's something I'm gonna take with me. Just, I love seeing my patients anyways, but now just super appreciative of my folks who come postpartum because that was a big surprise. I didn't realize how hard it would be just to walk out the door, prepared.

Katie 3:41

Yeah, I think, it's funny, I don't think you can count on much with prenatal and OB care, but you can almost always count on postpartum women being late to their visits. Yeah.

Jenna 3:49

And that, and

Katie 3:50

that reason, they just have no idea how long it's gonna take to get out of the door. And I don't think you can, I don't think somebody can really tell you like, oh, hey, it's gonna take you a long time. You like have to experience just how long it takes. It's like three times longer.

Jenna 4:03

It's three times longer. And when she first came home, we had to go out a, a number of times to like PD and X, Y, Z because, she had elevated bilirubin. So we had to keep doing stuff and it was, oh my God, I was. I am someone who's never late and I was chronically late to these appointments just because she would have a blowout or she would spit up, or like, it was just, oh my God, what time is it? We have to go, because we hadn't slept more than two hours the night before. Another. Surprise was just how like all encompassing the first few weeks are, and I know we talked about it a little bit in our class or in our session that we did. But it was just like, it am a food machine and this little nugget is on me basically 24 7. She cluster fed so much. So it was just like everywhere and anywhere was nursing city, like going on a walk. We're nursing pull over on the side of the road when we're driving somewhere. We're nursing, one time I think I had to pee and she was screaming. So we nursed while peeing and it's just the way it went. I think I was showering, we nursed. You get really strong arms

Katie 5:19

Oh yeah,

Jenna 5:19

first month postpartum. Um, I think that

Katie 5:24

surprising to me. When I was physically fit in, you know, college. I played college sports and I could not do, um, pushups, and the only time in my life I've been able to do pushups is when I was child rearing.

Jenna 5:37

Yeah.

Katie 5:38

Because you're just carrying around these, 10 pounders or plus, right? Constantly. Yes.

Jenna 5:43

Yes. And having to hold them in that position while they're nursing and wiggling or, even bottle feeding like is a whole thing. I'm sure there's other surprises, but those are the two that pop up immediately. Yeah.

Katie 5:56

Was there anything about being a midwife that you think was helpful going into the postpartum timeframe?

Jenna 6:03

Definitely. The physiologic changes were, it was really helpful to know what would happen. Like I remember on day four I was super swollen, my ankles. Were the most swollen they'd ever been. I didn't get swollen in pregnancy, but I was swollen postpartum. And I looked down, I'm like, oh my God. And I think if I did not know that was gonna happen because of the fluid shifts, I would've been freaked out. Like, oh, is this A DVT? Like, what's wrong with me? Why am I so swollen? I think also having an unexpected c-section that sort of changed things. Like I had all this witch hazel and frozen pads and posics prepared, and so I had to sort of shift. But that shift I think, went a lot easier because I knew about, c-section care to an extent and knew, I, I had the education that I told my pa my patients all the time. What it will feel, what it could feel like, and that it might be numb or tingly or, signs of infection. So I feel like that aspect of healing was really calm. Like I, I was not worried. I just could like objectively look at my body and be like, cool, we're, we're rocking, we're rolling. This is normal, this bleeding's normal. Which I think a lot of folks have that in the back, like that worry like, is this okay? Is this sensation okay? I felt it once. Is this a problem? Is this an infection? And we were just rocking out. So that meant I get to focus on closer feeding more. I think too, being a midwife lends itself also to a network of midwives that I could reach out to and be like, this is happening to me. And I, I just remember all the time being like. We're nursing for four hours straight with a 10 minute break. Is this normal? And my friend who had just had a baby who's a midwife, six months earlier than me was like, yep, we did that. It's okay. Witching hours, okay. All of it's okay and you'll get through and it's gonna get better. And it'd be like, no way. It's not like this is, this is where we are. But in seeing the patients and seeing them go from their two week or three week to their six week and seeing how significantly like their moods change, improve or, their understanding of their kid improves that the same thing happened. And it was having to trust the process. And having seen it a lot of times made it a little bit easier to believe. But also sometimes it was not.

Katie 8:29

I'm a big fan of the three week visit over the two week visit for that. I mean, I know there's sometimes debate. We had debate as a practice, do we see 'em at two weeks or do we see 'em at three weeks? But it is amazing to me. Early in my career, I had a patient say to me, oh, if you saw everybody early, we, it's a good thing you don't. 'cause we'd just all be crying. Right. And I think that's so true until this like magic three week timeframe. Yes. You know, it's been long enough that there's a bit of a habit there. You get in a little bit of a routine and it's sometimes a light switch a little bit. Everything's not solved, but it's just Maybe you feel a little safer in that moment. Maybe the hormones are just a little bit more dealable in that three weeks, you know? Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a big fan of

Jenna 9:12

the

Katie 9:12

the three week. 'cause at two weeks it's really hard. Uh, I feel as a provider, if a patient's in front of you and they're crying and they're like, I don't know, this doesn't feel normal. It's hard in that two weeks to be like, no, I'm telling you in a week you'll feel so much better. Like, they have some trouble believing you. Whereas if you just see them the next week, they've kind of already had to push through that a little bit, you know? Mm-hmm.

Jenna 9:31

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

Katie 9:33

it's funny how

Jenna 9:33

that, it was a really big jump from two weeks to three weeks, I think two weeks I like, was covered in spit up and was just like crying. Not for any reason, just 'cause it's hard and I'm tired. But then three weeks, I don't know if it was just like the cluster feeding calmed down a little or we had another lactation appointment, or I don't, you know, I talked to my midwife, it was just like, oh, I'm okay.

Katie 9:58

Yeah. So how many weeks exactly are you out now?

Jenna 10:02

Yes. So we are 10 weeks and three days. Woo. What

Katie 10:08

And what do you feel like you're working on right now compared to three weeks ago?

Jenna 10:13

Yeah, I think now I'm trying to fit, figure out how to fit myself back into the equation. I feel like I have a grasp on breastfeeding and, I can always change, but I don't have a lot of insecurity around that anymore. Like I did in the beginning of like, is she eating enough? Is she gaining enough? And even three weeks ago, let me think. Yeah, before she was two months, I was nervous she wasn't getting enough, and lo and behold, she gained three pounds. So she's getting enough and we're good, and we're just going to keep on rocking. So now, oh, and she's been sleeping great, knock on wood. Because I'm not take, I'm not jinxing it, she all of a sudden started sleeping six to eight hours at night. I didn't do anything different. She just did it. And I was like, okay. So I feel like I have a little more energy to, to be me, um, and not just mom to a newborn. So that's kind of what I've been trying to work on, like reading for fun. Instead of like doom scrolling or, cooking or, oh, sorry, I said that loud cooking, or, I plan on hoping to try to get in at least one sewing project. And I am gonna challenge myself this weekend to, I haven't gone anywhere with her alone. So I wanna take her either to the farmer's market or just into town to get a, a drink. I always bring Quinn with me, like to get, a coffee, but just, oh, hey, you spit up. Just to do the stuff that makes me happy, if it's moving my body, if it's writing or coloring or just artsy stuff or the more practical stuff. I haven't done it on my own. I've been relying on others, which I needed to, but I think I'm at a place now where I can explore a little bit.

Katie 11:57

I find that really interesting because, we're finally getting to the place where women are starting to have better maternity leave policies. And when I had my babies, I went back to work at five

Jenna 12:11

weeks, Mm-hmm. I wasn't

Katie 12:12

healed. It was terrible. But everybody else was also doing that. And you know that my daughter's 14 now, so that's 14 years ago. And I do think there's more understanding and a push and more embracing and our field is kind of getting there slowly. I think our field is not on the forefront of this. I think this is naturally happening elsewhere. First. But for a lot of women at 10 weeks they'd be thinking about going back to work. And so I think their focus would be, now I've got to figure out how to go to work. And it sounds like from you, if you had to do that, you might be in a good place to do that, in the sense of it wouldn't feel so overwhelming. Yeah. But because you don't have to do that, you're able to start incorporating yourself, to have these goals of I wanna start incorporating myself back, which I think speaks to, three, three months is like still a minimal time, right? Because you're just now getting to the point where doing anything outside of the baby feels even remotely, like something you could accomplish. And so for a lot of women, when they're going back to work, that can be their only focus. So then guess what gets left out them, right? And so it's really interesting to hear you say, you know, this is my goal. And for it to probably be accomplishable.

Jenna 13:30

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I appreciate you saying that. 'cause I didn't fully realize that. 'cause I, I'm, I'm taking an extended leave, unpaid. But I needed that for my own mental health and also for, mothering in the way I want to. And fortunately we're able to, 'cause if I financially couldn't, then we wouldn't be. I definitely would've been, I would've been stressed about how much milk I have frozen. And you know, oh my God, like how am I gonna pump? What is that at work? I have to have pumping clothes and what if I'm leaking? Or, what do I do if if I'm delivering a baby and I need to pump and it's long if we're stuck or you know, X, Y, z and I'm just not there yet, like I and I don't need to be, and those will come. And also, I can also logically tell myself, this is not the first time a midwife has gone back to work after having a baby. There are answers. And also we will figure it out and roll with it. But I get to just build myself back up and feel, out this new relationship with me, as Mama Jenna. I think bringing Celeste along for the ride has also been really lovely. I'll have times where I just set her up on her little play mat and read her a book and then I read my own book while she's just like wiggling around or, um, baby wearing and walking around town and also relying on, Those around me. Like I got to do a little test drive this weekend and my mom was up here and she's great with her and super helpful. And I like got a pedicure and normally I don't even care, but my toenails were so awful that I thought they were gonna like, make someone bleed. So it was nice to do that, just not have to worry about that anymore. And they're like polished and not gonna cut someone by accident. And um, she was okay and there was milk in the fridge and I didn't have to like worry about rushing back because she. Is a bit more regulated. Hi. Yeah. Is that what you have to say? Is that what you have to say? Did you like hanging out with grandma? So, um, it's nice to not have to immediately jump into the next big adjustment. Right now. I get to just be, and some people might think that that's, not a good use of time or,, like if you're, if you have time to do that, then you have time to go to work. But I don't know, I think that there's, you only get this period once and why rush through it.

Katie 15:57

Yeah. I think one of my favorite things, and one of the reasons I feel strongly about doing this podcast is that as midwives, we have a lot of commonalities, but we also bring different things to the table. And if we take the time to learn from each other, I think we can create just such better working places moving forward than we have right

Jenna 16:21

now. Oh yeah.

Katie 16:22

And, you have been uncompromising in your wanting to have babies, you know, and I think you're the first midwife that I've really encountered that has been that strongly uncompromising about it. And if we can embrace that piece, just like we embrace some of these other qualities and we work hard for them, I think we all gain because, There's something really beautiful about that, that you're able to be like, no, like I don't care. No.

Jenna 16:52

Yeah.

Katie 16:53

and, so for a backstory here, I, had helped mentor you. Yes. And it was like day one after you got outta school that you're like, I wanna have a baby. And I'm like, uh,

Jenna 17:04

uh, I'm, and I'm glad

Katie 17:06

you said up. Midwives are as a whole, very maternal, so not surprising on the one hand, but on the other hand it's like, wow, you've worked so hard to get here and you still have a lot to learn. How do we like go on this journey? And so we came to this compromise, I think, that you'd wait to try to get pregnant. I think it's for like four months, right?

Jenna 17:27

Yeah. Basically till the end of orientation. And the way that you framed it that was so helpful to me is that like orientation was my baby. Like I was my baby. Like I needed to mother. Myself through orientation before I introduced another baby. And thank God I did because having been, if I were pregnant and, you know, I, I had gestational diabetes, so dealing with gestational diabetes and or even just trying to get pregnant during orientation. 'cause that was its own emotional roller rollercoaster, which I got pregnant in three months, so that's not even long. But it was like,

Katie 18:00

but you didn't know at the

Jenna 18:01

Right? And every month I wasn't pregnant. I was ready to like, ruin something or like destroy buildings. So just 'cause each month you're like, okay, what's next? What's next? So if I were dealing with that while also, learning how to not just do the job of a midwife and to find my identity as a midwife, that would've been so hard. I felt really good in my pregnancy and I don't think I would've felt as good if I were dealing with

Katie 18:26

Yeah. You know, orientations is a lot, but I also appreciate, like I said, that you felt so strongly, you, I think you said something along the lines of, but I have done everything everybody's always wanted me to do

Jenna 18:39

And,

Katie 18:40

and I went to school and I did all the things and I was like that, that model daughter or model, friend or model, whatever, and now it's like my time and I wanna get pregnant and I do. Appreciate that. And I think it's in its own way, brave, to be like, this is what I want. And culturally, that's kind of against what everybody's gonna tell me, but IF it.

Jenna 19:04

care. Effa is right. Yeah.

Katie 19:07

And so, I, I will take this moving forward with me and I think every one of us that, take this the time to make sure that what we feel really passionate about and what we feel strongly within our own selves, that we are uncompromising about it in our career. I think it helps other people, because you taking the maternity leave like you are right now, is also setting an example for others that like, you can do this. Even if other people are telling you you shouldn't or you can't, or whatever, it's no, I'm gonna do it and I can and I'll figure it out. You know?

Jenna 19:42

Yeah. I have had so many, like you talked about, okay, like I'm gonna do this and then I have to do this. And everything is structured and formal and safety plans, safety plan, safety plan, and I have my plans still 'cause I'm a planner, but I, this is what I need and this is what I want. And I think of all the times to like, follow through with your wants. It's now, when you're giving so much of yourself to a little human, I thank you. Deserve a want and I want more time. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie 20:11

And I think as a field, we really still have a lot of work

Jenna 20:14

to do. Oh yeah.

Katie 20:15

on how we support, our new mothers, our new, partners, Those people that are coming in with this massive thing, this massive transition that just happened at their house.

Jenna 20:27

Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. And I feel like one thing that I've taken with me that I've been really grateful for,, is my husband and I were like having dinner once, I think maybe with a friend, and they were like, oh, has it been really hard? I, I hear the newborn phase is horrible and hard. He's it's been hard. But, but we were prepared, like we knew it was gonna be hard. We talked to people, we did classes, we took your class. We, had a doula. We'd had prenatal and postpartum doula. We, were resourced out. Essentially, and it felt good. It was tough, but we knew, okay, like we have this resource or like we have this person, we have meals in the freezer that we just have to throw in a crockpot or throw frozen pizza in the oven. We have a doula appointment coming up and she's coming over to the house. So we know we can at least get a nap during that time. And it was it was all hard, but it was okay. 'Cause we knew we had all these safety nets and check-ins and that was the planning. I was like, okay, we got through this part. And of course this is gonna be never ending and that's okay and there's gonna be all these challenges and changes. But we've done the historically hard part and we were prepared and we navigated the changes, like the challenges, like the unexpected C-section and the elevated bilirubin and X, Y, Z, and we did it. Yeah. And

Katie 21:58

of smiled there, Celeste smiling, yay, you did

Jenna 22:02

Yay. He smiled. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and we kept her alive

Katie 22:06

Hey, that's huge, right?

Jenna 22:08

That's a big deal. I think a lot about my patients in that and it's definitely gonna impact how I, do counseling education. 'cause I always brought up like postpartum doulas or like taking classes. But now I'm gonna really enforce it or, or not enforce, that's not the right word, but emphasize that's the right e word. Because I do think I'm lucky in that I have a partner who was engaged and supportive and wanted to know more and wanted to grow. And be available and be present and was down to be tired with me. And that's a big. Thing that I'm really grateful for. But I think we also knew we're gonna be tired, we're gonna be hungry. Sometimes we're gonna be covered and spit up and we will roll with it and we have each other and it's okay to tap out and pass the baby to the other one and just have a mental health break for a few minutes or an hour or whatever it is. It's okay if we're both like half eyes, half close, leaning forward to just be like, we, one of us sleep, one of us struggle, and then we switch off. And I think that my, a lot of my patients are in situations where they're doing it on their own. There might be another person with them, but they're doing it on their own. And I want them to know that they can ask for more, that they can get more. And that, some work prenatally can really make that transition after a little bit easier. And I think a little bit goes a long way

Katie 23:34

Yeah. I'm very passionate about postpartum education. I think that it's one of the areas a lot like menopausal education actually, where we are under servicing women and their families in this. Because so much focus ends up on the pregnancy and then the birth, but this time you have of healing and your family transition and everything, it's actually a lot longer, you know? And there's so many things that can go wrong

Jenna 24:02

mm-hmm. In that

Katie 24:04

And I also think that we undervalue the experience that the partners are gonna have and how our system undermines them. So, they're often kind of just like

Jenna 24:16

right? Yeah. Your

Katie 24:17

to the, the pregnant person and, not really incorporated in the full way. Um, and you were also uncompromising in how much education you were gonna do. Oh. I mean,

Jenna 24:25

mean, you did literally everything.

Katie 24:27

You know, you had a doula, you had classes, you had breastfeeding. I mean, you had all the classes, you know, and you were already a midwife. So I, I think you couldn't possibly have done more preparation. And Quinn certainly got very prepared. Yes. And he got certainly more prepared than my husband did. I tried actually, but we just didn't have, well, you know, I developed my class in part because it's like a love letter to my husband of what I wish he had been exposed to, you

Jenna 24:54

You know?

Katie 24:55

And I think that especially for us as midwives. Having babies, I think it's really helpful to do what you did and basically flood your partner with information because it's already such an uneven playing field. Right. That I mean, and they feel that, they know that, that, and, and so it's so easy to kind of default to the uneven playing field and default to you. And then the hospital just reinforces that, right? And prenatal care just reinforces that. And so then they, they become very, I. Uh, unable to really feel confident in the child rearing component.

Jenna 25:35

Mm-hmm. And I think

Katie 25:36

starts early. And so if we can try to change that trajectory as clinicians for people and reinforce like, make sure you're getting your partner involved. I like to tell people in my postpartum classes, there's no reason that, the one that just delivered the baby should be changing any diapers. Absolutely. In the hospital it should be a hundred percent the other person and you should be giving the baby baths and as the, you know, delivering person, you should not be giving the baby baths, even though it's so nice to give the baby baths, but you need to give your partner something to start feeling confident in. Right, right.

Jenna 26:11

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Katie 26:13

How, do you feel like you've helped Quinn with that? I mean, besides, you know, making him go to like every childbirth class that exists. Yes. Um, how, how did that look for you in the first like couple of weeks? Yeah. You know,

Jenna 26:25

Well, one thing I will just comment on about that I, part of it was exactly what you said, that I was a midwife. And also for context, his dad's an ob, GYN. So like, he has been surrounded by people who make decisions about birth and pregnancy, or help people make decisions about birth and pregnancy and manage emergencies and manage unexpected outcomes and all that jazz and guide people through those life transitions. And I, he does computers, he click clicks all day. So I really wanted to make sure he had enough information. So that he felt involved. When I went to the doula, the main request was I want him to be involved. Like I want him to, I don't want it to be Jenna delivering this baby. I want it to be her birthing this baby. Or how, like I wanted it to be Jenna and Quinn moving through this transition together. And also selfishly, I didn't wanna be the sole person making decisions like, you know, I wanted us to have decision making together. I didn't want it to just fall on me just because I went to school for it. And I got that, which, all those, all those classes and all that stuff,

Katie 27:35

Mm-hmm.

Jenna 27:35

looking back, I'm really glad we did. Um, and then, oh, and I totally agree with you. I don't think I changed. 10 diapers our first month, or her first month of being alive, I think Quinn. And then my mom changed 99% of the diapers. The only time I changed one was if like Quinn was in the bathroom and she had a blowout. I, my job was to make food for her. And I did input, he did output. And I,

Katie 28:03

that's a great way of putting it. Yeah.

Jenna 28:06

'Cause it, and I think prenatally, he was kind of stressed. because, um. A planner and we did all the things. We also did couples counseling just to prepare for being parents. There was nothing wrong. We just were like, we know this is stressful, why not get prepared about it? And so we talked about postpartum more, and sort of delineation of responsibilities. And Quinn was like, wait, I have to do the dogs and help with the meals and do the diapers. So and you're breastfeeding. That's one versus five. Like, how is that fair? I'm like, Quinn, you do not understand. And about two weeks in, with my fifth feed and two hours with cluster feeding, I was like, are you happy with your

Katie 28:46

responsibility?

Jenna 28:47

responsibilities?

Katie 28:48

allotments

Jenna 28:48

yes. He was like, yes, I could not do what you're doing. I'm like, okay, just checking. Cool only now that Quinn's back at work full time. Am I changing more diapers? And, and the thing is, I know that if I couldn't, he would do it, but I have the capacity to do it, so I don't mind. I did not feel guilty about that delineation of breastfeeding. I'm making the food, I'm managing her input, I'm making her gain weight. I'm flushing the bilirubin out, like I have to do it like she cries and she's hungry. It's me. And maybe I could give a bottle or pass her off, but not really. I was, it's so early or har I was hardly making any milk to pump or having extra, so it was me and that was hard. But, it. Was so nice to not have to worry about anything else. My mom brought me cut watermelon and Quinn would give me snacks. And, our doula, like she would make me, I, I still have one in the living room, like little like breastfeeding snack totes and we would just have them around the house with meat sticks and granola bars and fruit snacks and just stuff I can shove with one hand into my mouth while breastfeeding and my water bottle's always full. What it also has reinforced is how much it should be in community. And that's a luxury for me to say, you know, I'm not a single parent and so I can talk about that. But even for single parents, have friends, have family, you know, someone at work made me freezer meal. She made me focaccia and vegan burritos that have been munching on just,. And my mom came and my grandma and they made me cultural foods and that were so amazing and delicious that I couldn't have, uh, in pregnancy 'cause of GDM. But, I was just nourished like in so many ways and I really wanted that, that sort of healing and was important to me. Like not just the physical healing, but like the nourishing side, like getting the food and being warm and being up with love. And I got that and I feel really lucky to have, but

Katie 30:50

but it was very curated in

Jenna 30:53

It was.

Katie 30:53

And it, but I think that speaks to how we have to be good at receiving help too. And I think as midwives it can be hard for us to do that. You are so used to giving, which can be very draining, but somehow you still manage to keep doing it. Right. And it's easier sometimes to just keep doing that and to not. Allow yourself to receive help. Mm-hmm. And that's really unfortunate. And we need to, work to, to receive. I know for me, it wasn't actually childbirth that really helped me learn that lesson. And looking back on it, I, and do a lot more of what you did. So if anybody's questioning, you're a great resource on how to do that. But, with my knee injury, I literally, it was like God was telling me to sit down. Yeah. Like sit down. And so I kind of had to learn how to accept help, but it was not easy. And, I can't remember if I said this in another episode, but I went to work and saw 30 patients before I had my full diagnosis and literally. Could not walk out of the door. I was crying. Yeah. Looking at my husband who had driven me there and was,, like 15 feet from me and I was just trying to telepathically tell him I needed him to come in. Yeah. Like, that's ridiculous. Yeah. You know, like you can't, it's, it's, it's hard. And I know with postpartum that timeframe, it was just easier sometimes to do things than to like allow my partner to learn how to do things and for it to look messy,

Jenna 32:28

Mm-hmm. You know,

Katie 32:29

to ask for help. And my family's super supportive, but my mom really wasn't mothered in the sense of how to mother someone postpartum. And, and that's weird because if you meet my family members, we are incredibly close and

Jenna 32:46

incredibly supportive. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie 32:47

But my grandmother's mother did not help her with her babies. So she didn't really know how to help my. You know, my mom and her sisters who then didn't really know what it looks like to help in that postpartum timeframe. It was kinda like, well, you have a baby, you come home, you made some meals ahead of time and you just keep it going. Yep. You know? And four babies later, you're still doing that. I joke all the time with my mother that I have no idea how she ever stopped postpartum bleeding. Yeah. I'm like, you should still be postpartum bleeding right now. Right?

Jenna 33:17

So all the walking and up and down. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Katie 33:20

And so I kind of had to be like, Hey mom, uh, this isn't necessarily how this has to look or should look. And, and that felt kind of strange to have to tell my otherwise super supportive mother that, Hey, I might need some help

Jenna 33:35

Yeah.

Katie 33:35

It helped my sister though because my mom was more prepared for her births,

Jenna 33:40

But.

Katie 33:41

I think you just, came into this world knowing how to dictate to everyone how they were gonna help you,

Jenna 33:49

that

Katie 33:49

which I value

Jenna 33:51

I value deeply. I

Katie 33:52

did do that.

Jenna 33:53

I think too, because I like you mentioned, like the childbirth itself was fine. And I mean, I love birth. That's part of why I became a midwife. And it is this amazing moment, but it's also two seconds compared like postpartum is the long part. It's the long haul and that. I, I still think of my mom who I don't think we would've done as well postpartum without her because she

Katie 34:17

uh, context here. Her mother is a massage therapist, okay? So you can like, visualize how that looked in, in, in the laboring process. I was like, oh my

Jenna 34:29

yes, I was getting lots of massages while contracting and, hip squeeze and calf release and like all this stuff and it was amazing. And she also is someone who's like super into like energy and healing and stones, which I also love and was, it was great to have that. And she taught Quinn a lot. I. Am historically bad at letting go. Like I am someone who is afraid of someone saying, well, if you wanted it done right, do it yourself. So I just do it myself before asking, but I knew I could not do that. So I practiced with Quinn and my mom knew, and she, did so much education for him so that I could just be like a potato with boobs and could rest and close my eyes and just be fed. And, she, slept at night so that we could both sleep in the car when we were driving an hour away to our appointment and, make sure no car accidents happened, which was great. And she would hold the baby when the baby was fussy and didn't want to cluster feed and so that we could just rest our arms and we could use the bathroom and take. A 20 minute long shower. So, the community aspect was so important. My mom was so helpful, and I think it was really serendipitous because I helped my mom with her birth seven years ago, almost eight years on Monday. I have an 8-year-old sister, or she's turning eight on Monday. I remember my mom got pregnant. It was a surprise. It was right before her scheduled hysterectomy. So it was like a whole thing. And I was so worried about my mom and she was high risk and, had all these fibroids. And I like petitioned my dad to let me be the one to go into the C-section so I could doula her without knowing what a doula was. And it was sort of what led me into birth work. I'd always been curious about it, but after that I knew that's what I wanted to do and I was like, mom, I'm taking care of you 'cause I don't think dad can do it the way I can. And I like send him home. Home to take care of our dog. I stayed with my mom every time baby cried. I got up, I brought her the baby, I changed the, I did all this stuff. And not because she asked me to, but because I was like, you just had a C-section. I'm doing it like you're not getting up. You need to rest. 'cause if you don't rest, you could bleed. And if you bleed, you could die. We're not letting that happen. So, a little anxiety driven, but. I think that created a special thread in our relationship and that's exactly what I got. Like I didn't have to get up. She, in fact, she told me to sit down more and lay down more. Like she never expected me to go do stuff for her even though she was my guest 'cause she was taking care of me. Quinn and my mom, like those two were the puzzle piece of making me feel the way I do now. Have a little bit of energy and look back fondly on those first three weeks, I think. Yeah, because it's hard to, it's hard when you are a giver, before I got pregnant, I would, okay, like this patient is nearing birth. I'm gonna stay an extra three hours at work, or yes, I'll take on X, Y, Z, and yes, I'll come in an extra day or whatever. But boundaries are hard to do when you feel you want everyone to get amazing care and get, something that you can provide that you don't think other people can provide. And most of the time it's empathy and love and a slowed down holistic care that midwives provide. And it's really hard. And even thinking about that's a, a little anxiety I have going back to work. Will I be able to care in the same way with boundaries? Because I'm not, well if I don't respect my boundaries

Katie 38:16

I actually think this is one of our, the things we need to really focus on for burnout. I am on this journey of healing my burnout

Jenna 38:25

And it's

Katie 38:26

messy. And I think people that are in that place, for they, they're hoping for this easy answer, and it's not, it's

Jenna 38:35

not

Katie 38:35

an easy answer. It looks messy. You're gonna make hard decisions. But it's worth it, right? Deciding that you're not gonna go back to work when you're relatively new in the field, for a longer period of time because you feel like this is what you need so that you can give later. That shouldn't be undervalued. That that should be something that. People are applauding you for like, yes, you are. You know, putting your own mask on before you put everybody else's mask on. Mm-hmm. This isn't rocket science, but yet it feels like rocket science to us because our culture is not supportive of that. It's not, that's not the first thought, but that's, but that's how we're gonna stay being able to give and to not get burned out is to really recognize what we're capable of, and what we're not capable of. And that we're human.

Jenna 39:24

Yeah. Yes.

Katie 39:25

And we have like only a human capacity for being able to, give.

Jenna 39:30

Yeah. Oh yeah. And like that, refilling our cups is just as important as giving from them. And I think I had really great mentorship from that, with you and with Carrie. And with Megan in different ways. Because I never felt pressured to do that. Like I never was like in a place where it was like, no, like you're new. Like you have to stay later. You have to do this. You have to struggle really hard. You have to do nights. I remember you actually protected me from that. Like, you have to be on your own and, struggling and suffering so that you can bloom. And I was like, no, you can actually just bloom at your own pace. That's okay. Like you don't need to. Have like pain during it and I feel, and even like orientation, like you can have what you need like six months. And that was the longest orientation of all my peers, which was really nice. And like we talked about at the end of orientation, I was like, oh my God, when will orientation end? Like I'm ready to do it my way. And that's like the ultimate sign that you're ready like that. And that's a gift. Most people are like shaking in their, well, not most, but a lot of my peers were still shaking in their boots. Like, oh my God, okay, I guess we're gonna do this. Like I guess we'll figure it out. And there was no guessing. Like I was like, okay, cool, we got it. And of course I'm still new, I'm still green there. There was still some things and texts and figuring things out. And also because in our world, everyone has a different style and try to figure out your style, but also doing the right thing and what is the right thing, you know? But I. Had a part of me, like I knew how I wanted to midwife and what that looked like was still developing, but I knew what I wanted to do and what drove me. And, I feel like I did it in a way that was pretty pain free. Like it was hard, but it wasn't ever, suffering, I guess in my sort of model of thinking about pain and labor. Like it was, there was pain and there was hard times, but it was never suffering. And I feel like that was a gift. That, that blossomed from you guys having really hard time and like really dealing with burnout, especially with the pandemic and like probably suffering and like trying to figure out like how do we sustain ourselves after this?

Katie 41:51

I think that I, well, I don't think this, I know that a lot of how I have mentored and viewed being a midwife, a peer midwife,

Jenna 42:03

mm-hmm.

Katie 42:04

has been modeled after my mentor

Jenna 42:07

Mm-hmm.

Katie 42:07

who was in, you know, my mentor now is over 70 and at the time she had been a midwife for

Jenna 42:17

Mm-hmm. decades.

Katie 42:18

And had, gone into midwifery knowing at the time that it didn't really, it wasn't supportive. The culture wasn't supportive for family, or, having a husband even. Um, which I think she would've done both if, uh. If she felt like it wasn't a choice.

Jenna 42:35

Mm-hmm.

Katie 42:35

But she never once passed that on to me.

Jenna 42:38

Mm.

Katie 42:38

Mm. Never once. And I thank her so much for that and it's really kept me trying to do that

Jenna 42:44

Mm-hmm.

Katie 42:45

And to look at my situations and not be like, oh, that was so hard, but that's just what it has to be. No, that was so hard. And I never want that to be that way for anyone else.

Jenna 42:55

Yeah.

Katie 42:56

And I really tried to do that.

Jenna 42:57

You did.

Katie 42:57

you know, when you do that and you have these big midwife groups and you create a culture of not paying it forward even. I mean, yes, paying it forward, but even like going beyond, paying it

Jenna 43:08

forward and being

Katie 43:09

like, my experience is something that doesn't have to happen

Jenna 43:13

Mm-hmm. And it shouldn't

Katie 43:14

and it's never gonna change unless we're the ones changing it, And so then you create a midwife group, you curate it, and everybody there is kind of with that same mentality of like, it doesn't matter. What's been hard for me, I'm not gonna model that for someone

Jenna 43:31

else. Mm-hmm.

Katie 43:31

You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna create, I'm going to be an active supporter in creating this culture of a more supportive environment, a more supportive working environment.

Jenna 43:41

it, yeah,

Katie 43:42

it takes the whole team, you know, it's not just one person. It's a, it's an entire team acquiescing to that.

Jenna 43:48

Yeah.

Katie 43:49

And, I think we had that and, you know, it just, it gets better and better, you

Jenna 43:55

You know,

Katie 43:55

as, um, time goes on and the team is willing to do that.

Jenna 43:58

Yeah. So

Katie 44:00

And then, even if those midwives go elsewhere, they're bringing that with them. Right? And so that becomes their new normal. That becomes what they're fighting for. And even though we are a small group, if we as a group, I mean a small group of midwives like across the United States, if we're, really trying to work together on some of these things, even though we have so many hurdles, some of it is able to be achieved, maybe all of it's able to be achieved, but it's done on like a, like a micro level a lot

Jenna 44:29

the times. Mm-hmm.

Katie 44:29

Not macro. I mean, you have to have systems in place that allow it, which we don't in this country, but even micro level can really be effective.

Jenna 44:38

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. The interpersonal, you know when, when you're supported and you are at practice, well, when you're supported as an individual, you can show up to your practice the way you want to, which allows you to, give care in the way that you think will benefit patients best, which typically as a midwife. Will. And so then your patients feel really nourished and good, and feel confident or feel secure or feel supported. And that only, extends further outside of the, the office And that, that stays with them. Like, I still, I was once going to Target and someone stopped, like you were the midwife at my granddaughter's birth. And I was

Katie 45:19

was like,

Jenna 45:20

oh, hello. And oh, actually I was at Costco in my postpartum baby wearing Celeste, and I was getting a hot dog from the counter and someone ran up and she's like, hi, oh my God, it's so good to see you. You, you were with me in my labor and you helped my cousin. And I was like, I did. And she showed me pictures and she's like, wow, look at your baby. And I'm so grateful, like she was like, you made me believe in myself and like. You made me feel good and supported and I had to run up from the back to say hi to you. And I started sobbing as soon as I turned around because just what a gift. I was able to do that because I have been supported and I feel like I can give what I want to give and she got to believe in herself and she got to get what she needed from that experience. And we get to connect over these little ones and I just, with birth and with pregnancy and with everything in between and with all these like changes in. Life. These transitions we deal with from getting your menses and losing your menses and giving birth and or losing pregnancies or whatever they are, there's just so much humanity and so much connection that can happen that when you feel like you can give it and you're not worried about, okay, I'm running behind, or oh my God, I have so many notes to write, or God, I don't have time. What am I gonna eat for dinner and X, y, z? from the simplest concerns to the biggest concerns, But it has made such a difference to feel like I can, like I have boundaries, like I, like I can practice the way I want to and that I'm supported and that I know that there's people behind my back. And so then I can be behind other people's back and. It is hard, but it's never felt like suffering, I think is the biggest takeaway.

Katie 47:22

So you've been a midwife for, how long has it been now? A

Jenna 47:26

two years. Two years. Yeah. Awesome. Uh. Two years in August. So in like a month ish. Yeah, two years.

Katie 47:32

two years. And moving forward, you're gonna go back to work and you're gonna

Jenna 47:38

have a Yes. Um,

Katie 47:41

What are you thinking work might look like for you? What are you feeling very strongly about? And, um, what do you think you might have to sacrifice? Because I do believe that it's not possible to have like, all of the things. Right. Um, so in your mind, when you think about what's important, it always has the other piece of what can I live with not having? Yeah. So what does that look like for you right now?

Jenna 48:07

Yeah. Yeah. Of that. One thing I am excited about is showing my daughter how I midwife and like what a midwife is. And I think that when I. Little ones are exposed to the adult world. If it's like you get to show like an earnest and honest and, glimmer of that, it means a lot and it is carried with them. So we'll have little toy speculum, probably plastic one, and, um, talk about the cervix and how cool it is and all that stuff. And, um, I am, I'm excited for her to hear that part of me and see that part of me, because being a midwife is my passion. It's, my calling. And I'm, I wanna share that with her. You know, she, not that she has to do it, but it's part of me. Well, midwifery is my passion and my calling, but it isn't my life. And I think my family is my life. Being with her, being with my dogs, being with my husband, like being home, being in nature with them is what is the most nourishing and most fulfilling. And, going to work means leaving part of that behind. I don't get to be with her every second of the day. And, we're trying to not do daycare, so she'll stay with her dad. And of course I have a worry, like, will she connect more with him? But, and then I'm like, okay, well even if so, that's okay, but what if it's not okay? And, I do worry about what is breastfeeding gonna look like with this interrupted sort of schedule? And I, I wish I could bring her to work with me and I could just throw her in a sling on my back while doing pap smears and then, breastfeed her when she's ready. I think of like the olden days and what midwifery looked like back then. Like it was very community oriented and was very familial and going to people's houses with your kid because you, that's what you had to do and their kids were running around and it was this beautiful slow different sort of pace. And I don't know if it will feel as natural to jump into the faster pace midwifery that I've been, that I practice right now. However I want to do it because I wanna take care of my patients. So that's sort of part of the sacrifice is that I kinda wish we could do it a different way. But I also feel connected to those I've been caring for, and I wanna go back to that.

Katie 50:31

Yeah, I think it's possible to still have that, baby wearing,

Jenna 50:36

Yes. Sexual abusive

Katie 50:38

situation, but a lot of times you see that in the home birth community, you're not seeing that in a more acute setting., And it's interesting because what I think serves you in your career can vary at different times,

Jenna 50:53

Yeah. And stages

Katie 50:53

in your life. Um, and luckily midwifery does have a lot of. Looks, does have a lot, a lot of different ways that you can midwife. And,, you started out in this acute care setting, which probably is, just knowing you a little bit far from what may be a vision could be in best case scenario, right? Yeah. But, but you find positives about it. And I think that, and everybody needs care. Everybody needs care. Yeah. And everybody deserves a midwife.

Jenna 51:24

Yes. That, and that sort of was part of why I became a midwife and part of why I ended up where I work, because I, and particularly like in thinking about black and brown communities, most of them are more, under resourced. So, and most of them are delivering in hospitals. So that's where I wanna go. Even if it's a shorter time, I wanna be there. If they have preeclampsia, I want to be able to midwife them in their preeclampsia. And now there's, certain lines and I might want some help, but, I really loved being able to. Not to be like, okay, bye, when my patient is high risk. But to be able to be like, okay, like when it comes to birth, we are still on the same page. We can do this. We might have to talk about some funky numbers and, other things. And we might have to talk about risk more, but we can still midwife. I tried to birth the way that's important to you or find out what else is important to you or, maybe adapt or care, but still care. And that was like a big nugget that I took from me at Yale and learning about what, how, how to show up in different spaces. And though it's hard and perhaps not the dream my heart has, it's, it's what I want to do and I think is what will fuel me in the long run.

Katie 52:49

Well, and right now it's probably more, in line with what you are willing to give time-wise. The advantage of going to a practice that's not your sole practice, like you're not the only person is that, you can really clock out.

Jenna 53:05

Yes.

Katie 53:05

You know? Um, so there are advantages in that sense. And there had been a couple of midwives though. One, I would say particularly because she has had all of her babies, um,

Jenna 53:16

mm-hmm.

Katie 53:17

with the practice you're at, that. Got the practice on board with what nursing should look like, what being breastfeeding friendly looks like.

Jenna 53:25

And then

Katie 53:26

two physicians came that also, were breastfeeding. And so I think, now the practice is pretty aware and, it really speaks to how it can just get kind of started with one experience and then grow. I think sometimes we are, at a practice that might seem just impossible, but if you can put yourself out there a little bit and say

Jenna 53:52

like,

Katie 53:53

no, this is, this is what I need, this is what has to happen and this is the right thing, and it's not just the right thing for me. It's the right thing for everyone. And you slowly kind of keep that pressure point. I actually think that most. People don't wanna be jerks. Right. You know? Right.

Jenna 54:11

Right.

Katie 54:12

And so if you just, keep chipping away at that, I do think that, a change can be made and then, fast forward now, it's not even a, like a question or a, a concern when you walk into it, it's the template has already been established for your nursing breaks. The expectation that you're seeing less patients has already been established. Like it's already there,

Jenna 54:35

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I will say they have made it very easy for me. Like I, I was like, Hey, this is when I'm coming back. They're like, okay. And because of the work you did and the other midwives with the nursing breaks, it's like, okay, like this is a thing now will it actually happen with just the way things go with patients? And that's something I

Katie 54:54

Sure. And that's something nobody can control, right. There's some degree of uncontrollable

Jenna 54:59

in our work circumstances, you know? Yeah. So that, you know that. And that's, but that's also just literally anytime, like, we'll be driving and she'll be like, I'm hungry. And I'm like, what do we just ate? What's going on? So, it is what it is. But, and that's also on me too. Like I have to figure that out like in the moment. Okay. Do I, what do I do? And, I think the right answer will come or maybe it won't and I'll be like, Ooh, that didn't feel good. We gotta readjust for next time. I. But they have been super supportive, which I feel grateful for because I know that's not the case. Like with my other friend or, who gave birth and she was on a strict three months and she was back doing nights on call and flip flopping between days and nights and trying to figure all that out and exclusively breastfeeding and not having enough milk pumped and all that jazz. And I'm really glad, she's figured it out and I'm really happy for her. And that is hard, like, to be thinking about that and figuring that out when you're also trying to figure out a three month old.

Katie 55:59

Yeah. And it's so multifaceted because sometimes it's the institution pressure, sometimes it's peer pressure, sometimes it's your own pressure. Sometimes it's financial pressure. I mean, for me it was like, it was, it wasn't institutional. Um, but you know, there might not be policies that really give you any choice. Like, we didn't have any kind of maternity leave. We didn't even have enough vacation time

Jenna 56:26

really Mm-hmm.

Katie 56:27

to string together,

Jenna 56:29

Mm-hmm.

Katie 56:29

you know? So it's like, then you see all the providers just going back really quickly and, and that sucks. And then it, that creates kind of a culture of expectance that that's what you're gonna

Jenna 56:40

Yeah. So it's I There are some places where it's not gonna be like that, because, people have already kind of broken that mold and I think once you break that mold, it becomes continuously easier to advocate for those kind of things. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Katie 56:55

But it does often come at a cost. I mean, it's usually financial. I think it's unrealistic for us to expect that you can make the best money and have the best hours and, and I know for you, you kind of did some preparation ahead of time on anticipating that you would come back in a capacity that you wouldn't be financially, able to produce in the way that you had before you went out.

Jenna 57:23

Oh yeah. We live with family and I saved a crap ton of money and I pulled extra shifts and I worked holidays, so I saved a lot. And that was certainly a cushion, but it's because I knew, like I need extra time and I'm gonna do part-time. So we're gonna just. Make it work and do staycations and figure it out. And so far it's been good.

Katie 57:48

Well I think even your decision from the gate of where you were going to live after you came out of midwife school was immediately in line with, I'm gonna have babies. You know, like, I am gonna have a family. This is the most important thing. And in that vein, these are the decisions I'm going to make to be able to accomplish that.

Jenna 58:06

yeah. 'cause we, we dreamed about New York. I was like, I'm gonna, we're gonna, I'm gonna go midwife in New York and. Quinn, you're gonna work in New York and we're gonna live in New York and be happy. And then I was like, absolutely not. No. And I do not want to, just think about all the money going to renting, not even like owning a property and, and all that stuff. And actually there was someone in my class who was very financially like, concerned. She's part of this group called Fire, like Nurses for Financial Freedom and was about like making a million dollars and then you can retire or all this stuff. And that was all great. I'm also not someone who likes money, we need money to live, but I am not like, Money, money, money. So I can do this and that. Like I just am, like, I wanna plant some seeds in my garden and eat beets and run around outside and read a book. Which you need money for, but not a lot typically. But she brought someone to the class who was a nurse who like, did a lot of financial stuff and it just got me thinking she was like, this is how much you're gonna need to have a house that cost this much. And we were thinking of going to New York or Jersey and I was like, absolutely not. 'cause I do not wanna be. Worried about this. I do not wanna be worried about, I, I didn't wanna be in a position where I was like, I either can spend time with family, but we have no flexibility or, or work all the time and then not be home. So we were like, okay, Delaware in Maryland, like, here we come. Because I, because I grew up low income and like I, my family was always working and having multiple jobs and running around and, concerned about it. And I've been concerned about it, so I'm like, no. Yeah, it, it was intentional to come with family, to live with family, and I'm so glad we did too, because it's just nice having another person to acknowledge parenting and acknowledge what you're doing and like interactions outside of how many poops did we do today? Like, how big were they? How many peas and what time did we eat it again? But it's a support that's been really helpful.

Katie 1:00:18

Yeah. But I also think, you come to an area where your family's not right. Yeah, that's true.

Jenna 1:00:22

that's true.

Katie 1:00:23

And you live with, your father-in-law. Yeah. Who also happens to be an OB GYN. Yes. Just incidentally. And that when I think about you, I just see mothering on every level. Like you're mothering your father-in-law, you're mothering your husband, you're mothering your child now, And, Think that's emotionally taxing, So do think that this idea of making sure that you are whole before you come back and try to mother and midwife other people is, is really important because I, This would be very emotionally taxing to, to just jump into it

Jenna 1:01:07

Yeah. No, it, that is very true. 'cause I, that is my instinct to just fix everyone around me and make sure they're okay and dig deep and get the root of the issue out and help them and mother and all the ways and, that's what I do with my patients most of the time. Or I try to, and. It makes me run behind sometimes. That's okay. But, I can't do that if I don't feel supported and don't feel, like my cup is full. Because when I am not getting that and not, having these reciprocal, not, not with the patients, but just like in my life, like reciprocal relationships of having what I need fulfilled, it, it, I can't, I can't practice the way I want to and I can't, I can't exist the way I want to because that's really what it is. It's midwifery became a calling because I, or felt like a calling to me because. It's doing what I love. It's seeing people for who they are. It's seeing what they bring to the office or to the table or to the birthing suite or whatever, and like helping them navigate it and then help and, and most importantly, leaving with them feeling assured in themself or grounded in themself or seeing themself. It doesn't have to be, you know, like, oh my God, everything's rainbows and butterflies, but like, that shit was hard period, end of story. And that's okay. You know, maybe that's what it is and maybe it is rainbows and butterflies sometimes, and I love that. So, I definitely am someone who cannot do that to the extent that I want to if I'm also not slept, if I haven't slept, if I haven't eaten good food, if I haven't been, you know, given a little. Baggy of snacks. I've been like, you're so important to me. Thank you for what you do. And I think I've also worked hard to tell people how I wanna be loved and, um, what I wanna be, or what support looks like to me. I've tried to set up systems where I can give, because I am, I'm watered and it, it doesn't feel hard all the time.

Katie 1:03:24

Suffering. Yes,

Jenna 1:03:25

Yes. No suffering or not suffering all the time. 'cause I'm sure there will be some moments.

Katie 1:03:30

I think when you're midwife, a lot of what we do is very intuitive. Yeah. And so you intuitively often know what people need. Yes. And then I don't know that we always recognize that not everybody's intuitive and able to just know what you need. And so it can feel like foreign to have to educate people in that sense of this is, this is what I need. Because you're just so used to that being part of who you are, just being able to do that.

Jenna 1:04:02

Yeah.

Katie 1:04:03

And then, but you might be married to someone who's not, or you might be a daughter to somebody who's not that intuitive,

Jenna 1:04:10

Right. You

Katie 1:04:11

you know? Or even if they're intuitive, maybe they just have no context for what you're experiencing, And so being able to voice, that's really important. I think you've done a fabulous job of that. Thank

Jenna 1:04:22

Thank you. Try for many. Uh, so years of not doing that and then being frustrated, it's like, why won't a new one just surprise me with a snack?

Katie 1:04:34

Wow.

Jenna 1:04:36

Well, I

Katie 1:04:37

it's evolved, you know, it's, it's being evolved of like, these are what I want, uh, and this just hasn't magically happened, so

Jenna 1:04:44

Yes. So perhaps I need to let people know. Right.

Katie 1:04:46

How do I make it more likely that it will magically happen, as in, it's not magic, but it feels like magic, right?

Jenna 1:04:52

It does. It, it really does. Yes.

Katie 1:04:56

Um, uh, so when you think about going back and having had this break Yeah. Um, are there any things that you think will be anxiety provoking? And if so, how do you think you could, help go into that? To minimize the anxiety?

Jenna 1:05:16

Yeah.

Katie 1:05:17

Especially being like a new grad relatively,

Jenna 1:05:20

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely have anxiety about, just like forgetting everything. What if I go and we have a shoulder dystocia and I can't remember what to do, or that's pretty, like a big example. So that one I'm not too worried about. It's more like the little things like what if I can't remember the number that's a cutoff or what if I forget to chart something? And also just 'cause I am forgetful right now because we don't get a lot of sleep and we're not, we are thinking about. Minute to minute here with what the kiddo wants, and she does a good job of telling me, she says, why? So then I respond. And the way that I would midwife, or at least chart, midwife chart, was very anticipatory Let me dive into this chart and gather this information so that when I go to talk to them, we can weave together this history and, so I'm a little nervous that that won't come back, but I also kind of am thinking it might be like riding a bicycle and maybe I'll just fall back into it and it'll come, but it might also take work. So sort of what I'm planning on doing is starting slow. To get my, feet wet again. And then also I've been talking about midwifery and like the clinical work with peers. Like they'll ask questions and I'll answer and I'll be like, oh, I remembered that. That's good. And I'm planning on diving back in a little bit earlier. So not maybe going into work, but maybe, helping newer people who are working with questions and like sort of thinking through things. And I, before I left, came up with these like little cheat sheets of like clinical guidelines for our practice for two of the newer providers. And so that was really helpful for my brain. So maybe making some of those, 'cause I love like writing out things and making them colorful. Of the other anxieties is also just what does, what will being in her life look like when I'm working? I work an hour away from home. So what happens if she gets hurt or sick? What do I do? What if she's sick, and I, I have a full day of patience the next day. Do I cancel? Do I go and just leave her with dad who is competent and could probably do it, but also I wanna do it. I wanna take care of her. I wanna nurse her. So I think that is that one I'm trying to let go and sort of just trust the process and trust that the right thing will come. It's like, okay, I have to let go a little bit. And that's really hard for me. And then I think also something I,, am dealing with or not dealing with anymore, but when I had my c-section, which I overall feel, well, it was little Miss Ma'am decided to be a face presentation and surprise us and actively where Katie's actually the one who discovered that.

Katie 1:08:09

Your body was doing so many things right? I know.

Jenna 1:08:12

I was in labor. My cervix was stretchy. We were doing awesome. I felt good, it was hard, but good. I was tired, but good. And little Ms. Mann decided to put her hand and her face into my cervix instead of. Her also put silly ma'am.

Katie 1:08:31

Yeah. That happens.

Jenna 1:08:33

In the midwife, not so much in the midwife community, but just like in the birth community in general, there's like things about C-sections and medical birth or like medicalized birth and like, all that stuff. And I'm sort of, like, is that gonna come up? And what is that gonna look like? And counseling patients and talking to the patients. And if they ask, I'll tell them. But, there's like a little part of me that's like, did you not do everything? Did you not try hard enough? Did you not X, Y, Z? And I mean, logically I know I did, but I, I could, I could see myself, talking to a patient being like, well, how do I avoid what happened to you? Yeah. It's like, well, you, you can't,

Katie 1:09:11

no, you can't always.

Jenna 1:09:14

because we were doing, we were doing the webs like, I was in the chiropractor once a week. We were doing the positions and versions and walking. I think I got myself into labor 'cause I was walking up and down a hill a bunch. But I have no shame around it, but I do wonder if I'll be put into a situation that's meant to make me feel shameful. Not necessarily by a patient, but just in the community,

Katie 1:09:35

about your C-section.

Jenna 1:09:37

Yeah. As a

Katie 1:09:38

yeah. Yeah.

Jenna 1:09:39

it's just something I've thought about and entering the workspace again makes me like sometimes like, oh, hmm. Will that come up?

Katie 1:09:46

Like, oh, you didn't deliver vaginally, so you don't know. Right. Yeah, that's interesting, as a whole, midwives are pretty supportive of each other, but there can also be this undercurrent of oh, well what type of midwife are you? Right. Are you, medical minded or are you holistic? And, sometimes we might individually feel like we don't get to be both, And that maybe even being both is not as ideal. Yeah.

Jenna 1:10:14

Yeah. But

Katie 1:10:17

at the end of the day, we need both. Sometimes that's how we save lives. Exactly. In both ways, right? Like in both ways. Um, and I will be very surprised if you actually get that from midwives, but I also understand where that's coming from. Even like breast and bottle feeding, right? But if you're a lactation consultant and you end up having to. Bottle feed. Like how is that gonna feel? And I wasn't able to go natural with either of my babies. I had really long labors. I think the only reason I ended up having a vaginal delivery, as a matter of fact, was because I had an epidural in the end with the first, and a very experienced midwife,

Jenna 1:10:57

With your 10 pounder, right?

Katie 1:10:58

Well, she was nine, but on me that's like, that was a tight fit. Yeah. But what it has given me, and so it kind of wouldn't even matter if I had, gotten that from the, the midwife community. What it has given me is like deep empathy. Yeah. You know, like I don't worry about big babies the way a lot of people do because I had a big baby and I didn't have a shoulder dystocia, I wasn't a diabetic. So my baby was proportionally big. Yeah. And come to find out afterwards that a lot of my family members have big babies also. Not diabetic, so, and I pushed for four hours. And when a patient is in that place, I can be like, I know how that is. I've, I've been there. And I think that that's really helpful sometimes. And your experience of having labored and then, ending up with this C-section that you were not expecting, even if maybe somebody was like, oh, well you didn't have a vaginal labor, you didn't get it. Well, you also get things that they don't get. Yeah.

Jenna 1:11:58

Yeah. Like that transition,

Katie 1:12:00

Right.

Jenna 1:12:01

it's a, a whole thing, but Yeah. Worth it. Yeah.

Katie 1:12:06

And I left doing deliveries for two years and was just doing like, uh, I shouldn't say just 'cause I feel really passionate about it, but it was, you know, taking care of women postpartum. Um, and it took me like one shift.

Jenna 1:12:20

Yeah. Fair. It was

Katie 1:12:21

you know, the one shift of like, oh my God. And, but it's interesting because in my head, by the time I went back I had built it up into this like whole thing. And then it was in part 'cause I was so burned out by the time I left that I was carrying all this burnout with me and attaching that to how going back would feel like I wasn't able to separate that those feelings were burnout feelings. And so now that I have healed a lot of that, I'm not gonna just be like starting back in that same place of burnout. So it was actually so much easier than I was anticipating. I wasn't really worried about the skills. I think I was just worried about maybe the management piece of it, the management between physicians and patients and nurses and patients and midwives in the middle of all of this. And, I, I think because that's where really where a lot of my burnout stemmed from. So in my head I had built this up to be this insurmountable problem. Yeah. And, but I kind of got forced into needing to go back. And I did at PRN, which for me has been very healing. It's been very healing that I am not full-time and that I am able to step away, and not be so invested. Which I think, for you will feel very similar in the sense of, you were working a lot when you left and, but it won't feel that way when you come back. You'll have some. Some breathing room there,

Jenna 1:13:53

yeah. I'm very grateful for that because if I was doing like the two shifts a week on top of the two office shifts, I was doing, like a. Traditional 40 hour work week on top of like, how I want to parent for right now. I would, I, I wouldn't be able to, something would have to go.

Katie 1:14:10

Sanity might be what, what left? Yes.

Jenna 1:14:14

I'd like to keep that for as long as I can. So I plan on going back part-time, which I think makes going back a lot less scary. It feels a lot more doable to gear myself up for two hard days a week versus four, especially when two of those days are 12 hours. 'Cause I I like. Working. I like doing what I do for work. I like showing up and being with the other people at work and I don't want to lose that. And I think doing too much and sacrificing myself in that will absolutely make me dread it, which will just lead to me leaving before I want to leave.

Katie 1:14:50

Yeah. yeah, I agree. Well, it's becoming bewitching hour for Celeste and I, I feel very proud of her that we lasted an hour and 26 minutes, as a matter of fact. We'll see. And I don't even think I'll have to edit that much out, so we'll see. But, I feel like there could be a, a part two to the Jenna story, couple months after you go back to work, so. Oh, yes,

Jenna 1:15:12

absolutely.

Katie 1:15:13

I look forward to that. I, I was really excited that you agreed to do this because. It's not, it's not like every single midwife is going through both being a new grad ish, Having recently experienced that new grad timeframe and being so immediately postpartum. And so I feel like that's such a great thing to be able to have people here and document that, that journey, that you're actively going through right now.

Jenna 1:15:40

Yes. Which I'm really glad too because it made me reflect and think about it and I feel like it's an hour, minute by minute, hour by hour sort of survival right now. So it was nice to sort of reflect and think about it and

Katie 1:15:54

all the, where you've

Jenna 1:15:54

of midwife. Jenna again? Yeah.

Katie 1:15:57

And Celeste being on her first podcast,

Jenna 1:15:59

Yes, you did. So good. I'm proud of you, especially since you're going through it right now. Good job.

Katie 1:16:06

So I look forward to talking to you again.

Jenna 1:16:08

me too.

Katie 1:16:09

you too. In a couple months.

Jenna 1:16:10

Yes.

Katie 1:16:12

All right. Till next time. Oh,

Jenna 1:16:15

Till next time

1:16:16

I hope you have enjoyed this episode of Mindful Midwifery Presents, the Labor Behind Labor with my guests, Jenna and Celeste. Jenna has since gone back to work and continues to work hard to balance her needs, Celeste's needs, and her family's needs with the needs of her community. I do foresee a future episode about her continued journey. In two weeks, I'll be sharing Bay's episode with you Bayla and I met at my first practice about 18 years ago. She has been practicing as a home birth midwife in Maryland for many years. Professional life has not always been kind to home birth midwives in Maryland, and her episode is a tale of perseverance and resilience. I look forward to sharing her episode with you in two weeks.