Fully Dilated: Season 1 Finale

In this season finale, Katie reunites with Laurel and Lindsay — two of the OG guests from the very first episodes — for a conversation about what a year actually does to a person. They dig into where they were twelve months ago versus where they are now: professionally, personally, and everything in between. Laurel is leaning into what it means to be a content, healthy, soon-to-be 40-year-old (with a half-marathon on the horizon). Lindsay is navigating a huge family transition with her first born graduating high school this year, steady employment, and the art of embracing a new chapter. And Katie? She's grayer, sharper, and somehow more excited about what's next than when she started.

They talk mentorship, motivation, partner support in the birth room, the strange clarity that comes with midlife, and why the best midwives are often the ones who've learned to let people be themselves.

Season two drops in October. But first — push.

This episode is best paired with a bottle of Whitehaven Sauvignon Blanc

Transcript

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Katie 0:02

They say every good story deserves an ending, but the best ones make you feel like it's just the beginning. Welcome to the season finale of Mindful Midwifery Presents: The Labor Behind Labor. I am your host, Katie O'Brien, and I have been a nurse midwife since 2007. A year ago, I sat down with some of the midwives I trusted most. I hit record and honestly just started talking about things I find super interesting about them and our industry. Now, here we are, 14 episodes later. I am a bit wiser, quite a lot less burned out, and excited in both the ending of the season and the prospect of another. We are now fully dilated and looking forward to pushing. I have welcomed back two of my amazing midwife friends who helped kick this season off with me to help wrap it up. We are getting into everything: where we were, where we are, and where we're daring to go next. This is the end of season one. Let's make it count So this is the final episode of the season, and interesting thing is that it has been a year since you both were on. Laurel, I think I recorded you first, and then Lindsay, but it was like very close together in the springtime, and it's wild to me that it's been an entire year. So I just wanted to take this episode to kinda wrap up the season, and I thought how fun is that that I'm, ending with the two of the three that I started with, and I just did Carrie's episode. So all of you have come full circle with me around. And as Lindsay just pointed out, I'm a lot more directive now. I've learned a lot. So hopefully the sound quality's getting better and better. But

Laurel 1:40

anyway,

Katie 1:40

so what I wanna talk about is how we've all kind of changed since the episodes that we did, both like personally and professionally, where we've, where we were at that point and where we are now, because it's been almost a year, and a year brings a lot with it. So let's start with you, Laurel.

Laurel 1:59

Thanks, Katie. I love being put on the spot first. Oh, stop. Feels real good. Professionally, I'm in the exact same spot I was a year ago, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing to be in the same spot and be really content and just fine to be in the same spot. We've been going through a lot of short staffing at the same spot, but I think there's an end in sight, which is super optimistic that some schedules will feel a little bit easier. And we're training new people, which is always, like, really refreshing to know there's new people interested in doing this work. So I'm so excited to have them. And as I'm really content and just pleased to be where I am professionally, I think it makes me look outside of, like, other things I'm doing in my life that are not related to midwifery at all, and figuring out what my own personal goals are that aren't related to the people that live in my house except for myself. So I feel like seeing clarity in some places makes me look at others of, like, "Oh, I should focus on something else." And that's been interesting this past year. Maybe put Last year this time maybe I was trying to make peace where I was professionally and relationship-wise, but now I'm, like, kinda past that quest and at a better place to launch into. What's Laurel gonna do when she turns 40? Oh my

Katie 3:18

gosh, you're turning 40- Yeah this September.

Laurel 3:21

This September. It's a great time of year to have a birthday. Yeah. You can Yeah. We need to celebrate that. Do you have any

Katie 3:27

Do you have any thoughts about what you're gonna do?

Laurel 3:29

gonna do? I don't know if I'm gonna actually celebrate my birthday as much as celebrate, having space to be a healthy 40-year-old, so by the time I hit 50, I feel real confident where I'm at with my health, my body, the choices I'm making. A friend of mine invited me to do a half-marathon with her- We all know who this friend is. And, uh, oh- This friend, by

Katie 3:55

This friend, by the way, this friend has done, like, Ironman

Laurel 3:59

probably. I don't know this friend. Tell us about this friend. Uh, this friend's at WHNP, and she recently had her third baby, and, like six weeks ago, had her third baby. And she's like, "Well, timing's gonna work out well for me to train for this half because I'll have recovered from my third cesarean and, be ready to start running and training again. Before I had children, like, I don't know, 15 years ago I'd done a couple half-marathons. So I was like, 'Okay, I'll do this ultra flat scenic half-marathon in December.' And so by the time I hit my birthday in September, I will hopefully be on my way, healthy, cruising, getting fitness, eating well, planning my schedule around times I'm gonna run and cross-train, and not be as focused on work and children. They'll, that'll be like second nature, like, 'Okay, they're all fine. This is all Now I can do this other fun thing and do lots of good stuff to keep myself in a good brain space and body space and not be like, 'Ugh, woe is me, I'm turning 40,' but like, 'Oh, I'm doing great 40. This is fine. We're, we're good. We're in a good spot.'"

Katie 5:06

It's really nice when you have people that have done that before you, and you're kind of pulling from that. For me, hearing Carrie and Lindsay, go first into that. Carrie has the best and worst 40th birthday story I've ever heard. She went... She ended up in Greece by herself for her 40th birthday, and there's like a whole story along the lines and, she's a great t- storyteller, so has a great story with it. But anyway, that and then Lindsay turning 40, and I just remember all of the thoughts you had around your 40th birthday and, that was really nice for me. So I also felt like when I turned 40, I wanted to just kinda like launch into the acceptance of it. Like, I went gray around that time, and it was in part because I was like, "Well, I'm still gonna look young, and so I'd rather, go gray now when I look young than when I'm 60 and it feels like I'm, like, letting go. Like, right now it feels like embracing when I'm this young." I think it would feel less like that later.

Laurel 6:02

Yeah. Yeah, I have like a very light complexion and, my grays have blended in with my sun highlights. I don't color my hair, so like my hair color is reflective of how many hours I spend outside, and so the grays just kind of blend in. But now I see them more, I'm like, "Okay, yeah, this feels appropriate." My mom was totally gray by the time she hit 40, and she had a darker, hair color than I do. I'm just like, this is just my age. This is who I am. I'm not trying to hide anything from anybody. I'm not ashamed to be an older person. I've got a lot of wisdom to share. I've got a lot of lived experience. I've a lot left to learn. I've a lot left of my life and yeah, I still feel young. Like you said, I don't feel old. I, I don't know. I feel like there's this perception that 40 is a huge, old number, but I'm like, I don't know. I, I, I don't, I don't feel that way at all.

Katie 6:50

else I, think about all the time is I'm always living life probably at least a decade ahead. I remember when I was 20 being like, "I can't wait until I can dress like a 60-year-old," and everybody was like, "What in God's name are you talking about?"

Laurel 7:03

God, same." But

Katie 7:05

my new, like, the people I look at and I'm aspiring to, they're, like, in their 80s. Like Jane Fonda, okay? Jane Fonda is rocking it. And I look at these people that are in their 80s, and they're still so vibrant, and they're still contributing to society. And somehow Google has figured this out 'cause it keeps giving me things on my Google feed that are like, "I just retired recently, and these are the lessons I've learned." I'm like, meanwhile, I'm nowhere. What-- Like, this is not coming soon for me. But I'm learning so much about this, age bracket, and one of the things I read was that we just have totally defined this slowing down thought process in our head. That, age, like, oh, you need to slow down, and now there's this, like, counterculture pushing back about that and being like, "Why? Just because you told me I have to slow down?" So

Laurel 7:49

anyway,

Katie 7:49

I have a lot of... I'm, like, thinking, like, 40 years ahead, okay, this is what I wanna look like.

Laurel 7:53

I wanna look like. So I, yeah, I, I feel like I don't feel like I'm in a totally different spot than a year ago, but just a little bit different focus where other things kinda have settled and are, are good. Like they're fine, they're good. I can focus on some other things now, so yeah.

Katie 8:10

So yeah. How are you, Lindsay? Where you at? Your episode was super vulnerable, and actually both of your episodes are really well listened to, and Lindsay, yours is, like, particularly well listened to, which I haven't figured out the algorithm of these things yet, but I have a feeling it's because your, even your episode description reads as vulnerable, and that's very appealing to people to, to see that. People

Lindsay 8:31

People like to hear tears crying. People like to

Katie 8:33

hear tears. So it's crazy

Lindsay 8:34

your tears. I like, tears. So it's crazy to think an entire year has gone by. But I am in a really good place professionally. I was definitely, having some conflicting thoughts about where I was last year around this time. I didn't quite feel I was in the right fit of a job. I'd been in it for a couple of years, and, just knew in my heart it just didn't feel right. And I wasn't doing deliveries, and I love labor and delivery, and being around moms in labor, and welcoming babies into the world in the immediate postpartum period, and I just didn't have that in my job. And, thankfully, an opportunity came along to go back to where I had been for 10 years, on labor and delivery. And I'm there full-time now. So I left the job that I was at last year And I'm now full-time doing, I'm a laborist, which is a new thing for me. So I do three 12-hour shifts at a hospital south of me about 30 minutes, and it feels, feels really good because I'm back at the place that I, I know a lot of the nurses, I know the administration, I know a lot of the doctors I work with, a lot of the midwives I work with, and it feels really good. I also have an arrangement where I, have stayed on as relief or, or to per diem in my old, in the, in the previous job, and I do office days. So I do about three or four office days at the job that I left. So it's just about five minutes from my house, and it gives me the chance to stay doing prenatal care as well as GYN care, postpartum care, because I do really love that, too. I, I love the variety of, of what a full-scope midwife does, so I didn't want to give all of that up. And so I'm doing all of that now, and it feels kind of like a lot, but it also feels like I'm doing, I'm enjoying my work. I always think to myself, "I just need another day of the week. I just need an eighth day of the week to do all of my shifts, do the, the job over, at the office job, and then be a mom and a wife and,, everything else." What about some

Katie 10:43

major changes with-- soon with your, family life because your son's gonna graduate high school, and that's your oldest.

Lindsay 10:51

Yes. That's, so personally, I have a senior in high school, and he's going to be graduating in about two, two and a half weeks. So that feels really big, and I don't even know if I've really wrapped my head around what that even means, him going off to college. I mean, he's so ready, and he's, he's so ready to launch, and I'm so proud of him. But at the same time, I've loved being, I love being his mom, I love being a mom and just having my, my little party of five under my, under my roof, you know? It, it's a transition for sure, so... But it's part of life, and our job is to launch our kids. It is.

Katie 11:25

That's what you keep telling me, and I, I've been dreading this moment. I think my own high school launch was traumatizing. I was the oldest, and I know I've shared this story with you before. But, I went to school in Vermont, and I, I'm from Delaware, and so that my, husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, and my family all drove up to Vermont, left me, and all drove back. I spent the next three months crying. They spent the whole car ride crying. It was, it was so traumatic, actually. But it, it actually helped define me. So I wouldn't change any of it, but ooh, it was ripping, it's ripping your heart out. And I know my family dynamic changed too in that moment, you know, when

Laurel 12:06

Yeah. I mean, it does, right? That's just, that is part of life. It is. It's part of, your kids become adults and then they create their own adult life and their own family. And my, my thought is that I just hope that he, wants to continue to come back home. And we are a very strong family unit, so I, I want him to launch and do his things and then, touch base, come back, be together, and then do whatever else he's gonna do.

Katie 12:31

whatever else he's gonna do. Well, I said, I would've said I wasn't coming back to Delaware. I would've written it in blood. I tell people that all the time, and I'm serious. Like, if you had been like, "Katie, write this in blood. You're never coming back to Delaware," I would've been like, "Yeah, let's do that." And then here I am because of my family.

Lindsay 12:44

Yeah.

Katie 12:44

Like, all these years later. I didn't come back right after college, but eventually that pull's strong.

Lindsay 12:49

That's a big reason why we live in Delaware. My parents are an hour and a half south in Salisbury, and then my husband's mother is 30 minutes north. So for, that's a big reason why we're still here. But we don't regret it. It's been great. It's been good. Yeah.

Katie 13:03

So last year when we were recording these episodes, I was,, I was doing PRN work at the hospital and things were very tenuous still. The midwives weren't covering 24/7 yet. The program was rebuilding. Some of the physicians were less than ideal. And it felt like I, it felt like I, I wasn't really able to be proud of it yet, I guess. I wasn't able to tell people, "Hey, you should, come here." And interestingly, Lindsay started back at the hospital in October. I went part-time when she went, full-time. And so then we've been back at the hospital together which we were both there before, and then recently we independently both had a conversation with you, Laurel, being like, independently, like completely, we didn't know the other one was doing it, "Hey, it's finally stable. You should think about coming back and doing PRN work." So here we are in, in a year and that, and that's actually a much quicker timeline

Lindsay 13:59

I would like to take a minute and note I am still currently content and pleased at my current job, so the owner of that birth center should not be concerned right now. I am

Laurel 14:09

And PRN can be like every two months. One time every two months. Yes.

Lindsay 14:15

That

Laurel 14:15

I can tell you're content. I can tell you're good.

Katie 14:18

tell you're

Lindsay 14:19

I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. It's all fine. I'm not going anywhere. Well, you don't

Katie 14:23

you don't have to go anywhere. I think that's the, wonderful thing about midwifery and what I've learned. Yeah. Well, what I've learned is like, for some of us, because we end up in these... E- everybody should have a midwife. I think all three of us would agree that everybody should have a midwife. Doesn't mean if you're high, like it doesn't matter if you're high risk or low risk or natural birth or epidural birth or whatever, midwifery can touch the hearts of anybody in any journey, right? And so I think sometimes as midwives, we can be pulled into that like true midwifery. We're, you know, in the birth center, and we're laboring with the woman and all the wonderful things, but then there are skills and other aspects of midwifing the patient that you feel in the hospital that you kind of miss, too. And so I do think it can be a sweet spot when you've got your feet in both doors, just like Lindsay. The big issue is not that, you're content in your job, it's that it's a lot to have your family in the birth center and your job and, having all, all of your hands in all those pots. 'Cause I think you could, like Lindsay said, it's, it's very infrequent that you have to do PRN, like two times in 12 weeks or something ridiculous Uh,

Laurel 15:32

no, I think that, like what you said, you can't have your hands in all the pots at the same time. I think you have to really figure out what your biggest priorities are that you're gonna look back in five years like, "Yes, that is the way I wanted it to go, because that was the most important piece of it." And then I build everything around it. It's important to me to parent my girls the way I wanna parent them, which means everything else has to kind of fall into place after me parenting my kids the way I want to. And yes, I want satisfaction in my career and a really satisfying marriage, and like all of that's so important to me. And then like in the middle of who's Laurel?, And I feel like that's going into, into 40 of like, oh, right, like that's a priority. And to be content and like happy where I'm midwifing, it's great. I feel like that box is checked. I don't think I need to add anything to that place right now. It's doing all the things. And I have got eight more years before my first one goes off to college, so I feel like I've got a while before I'm like, okay, I can open up to some of this is leaving now. That big job of being around as a parent is gonna be like not there forever. And I've got like 20 to 30 years before I retire. That's like a lot of career left after the children are out from under the roof. So it is prioritizing and making sure like your priorities are fitting with what you're actually doing and not over-spreading yourself so thin that like the thing that's most important isn't getting overlooked. And I feel like Turning 40 is like a good pause to reevaluate for me what has been important and am I doing those things right now. Yeah, I don't think I need to do all the midwives right now. And that's fine. That's- And, It's okay, and you're like... It's almost like you know your limits, and you know what your priorities are, and even though it sounds cool to do that, and, the per- like, the hourly rate is attractive, in your heart you know some really neat vacations- Yeah with and all that's great. But if you know in your heart of hearts it's too much, then then it's okay. too much. Yeah, And that's And, like you said, like midwives should be everywhere in the birthing space, and like I don't feel like I need to be responsible to fill all of those spaces. I can thrive in all of them, but there's a lot of other midwives out there now that can also thrive in all these spaces to give these women and birthing people like a midwife to be there with them through these journeys. So it's kind of nice to know that the field is ever-growing now. Like, from when I first worked at this hospital in question, I was one of two midwives. Lindsay, after was- Way

Lindsay 18:06

or two, made the third midwife in the whole hospital. Come to find out, generations before, there were more midwives,

Laurel 18:12

They were like legit

Lindsay 18:14

they were

Laurel 18:15

They were legit midwives. They were legit, like, ran their

Lindsay 18:16

we were there. But now there's a lot of midwives everywhere, and that's great because I'm just like, "Yeah, I can be in the birth center right now. This is fitting me. This is fitting my life. I'm happy there." But you know what, at the hospital, there's also like a lot of midwives now, and so like I feel like patients are able to get midwifed through in a lot of different spaces, and that's like really reassuring that I don't have this panic of "Oh, but if I were at the hospital, I could be midwifing them, and I could bring my birth center experience, and they would benefit from that." I think they're kind of getting what they need. I don't need to be there for them.

Laurel 18:46

Yeah, there's a lot of really good, good care out there, and it's great. We're all working and doing

Katie 18:52

thing. So we were interviewing a midwife yesterday, Kerry and I. Lindsay was in the background delivering babies. So we were working on the same shift, and I was hoping Lindsay would be able to be there, but the babies called. So it was Kerry and I, and Carrie said this thing that was interesting. She said, Delaware's gotten to the point now where once upon a time, people were seeking midwives in Delaware. They were looking for them. But now Delaware is at the point where midwives are kind of just everywhere. It's kind of the expectation, so people aren't even searching for them because they're just there, and that's really great because that's been a transition over 10 years. Like, when I moved, I said I wasn't gonna come back to Delaware in part because the midwife environment back when I went to school was really negative in Delaware. And then I, went away, and when I was coming back, it had just started to kind of turn. You two had, Lindsay, you had been at the hospital I think for, days practically by the time I had, put in my d- desire to come back here. And in that time, like, where we were then with, very few deliveries by midwives, and now the grand majority of vaginal births are by midwives. Th- that, that's really cool

Lindsay 20:00

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Laurel 20:01

Yeah. And it was cool, actually, you and I were on yesterday, and then we got... I got a phone call from a midwife friend of ours who works at a different hospital, and she called me because she's in a... her hospital's in a funny situation where they can't... They're basically under vert for, like, 40 days out of the week. And she called and she said, "I have this couple." She's sort of, you know, urgently calling, like, "I have this couple, they really want to deliver at a hospital that has midwives. Are you gonna be there? Are you on right now? Are you... How long are you gonna be there?" And I said, "Hey, we have midwife coverage 24/7, so they can come and they're gonna be taken care of, so they're fine." It was really cool to be able to just... I know the schedule is stacked, just 24/7 with great doctors and also one or two midwives during each shift. So it's really cool to know that that's available in Delaware,

Katie 20:54

I

Laurel 20:54

and in the middle of the state, which is pretty cool. 'Cause we have our northern hospitals, we have our southern hospitals, and then we're in the middle Good geographic location.

Katie 21:02

then we're in the middle. Good geographic location. I've also been doing a lot of thinking about what midwifery looks like in the hospital setting as far as what we really excel at. I had kind of an unexpected conversation with one of our physician counterparts and, she came to us as a,, a new doctor right out of residency. And I thought she was very competent and skilled and, very confident when she came out, and so we adjusted to her being new on the floor very easily and quickly. And we were talking about suturing. And I was like, "Oh, what if, what if, this new physician is not gonna be capable of suturing, and I was like, "We, we kind of rely on you." And she's like, "Katie, I bet you guys suture better than we do. I bet that you do shoulder dystocias better than we do, and I bet you do hemorrhage management better." And it was kind of startling to me because, like I said, she came in so confident, and I immediately, trusted that she would be somebody that I could call that would have, Higher skill, and I had to come back to my own self and be like, "Oh, you know what? She's right." Like, why am I expecting that new, newer physicians are more capable in these categories than midwives? Like, when we ha-- when some of us have decades of experience. It was really nice to hear that from her, that she thought that. And yeah, I thought that was kind of a win too for our midwifery program that I'm being told by a physician.

Laurel 22:27

Like, I'm not having

Katie 22:28

say, "Hey, we're good at this." Like, she's telling me, "No, you're good at this. Why aren't you giving yourself credit for that?"

Lindsay 22:33

that?" So I have a suspicion that that exact physician might have been trained by a midwife in a hospital just to speak to the importance of having midwives in teaching roles and in roles where they're not just teaching physicians, but other midwives and other providers and, what a difference that makes in the long run to, have that team, there's, so much cross skill that a physician and a midwife have. There's a lot we do very similarly, and our approach and philosophy is probably a little different, and their skill set might look a little different. But to have all the bases covered by all different midwives from hospitals to birth centers to teaching positions and, here you had this wonderful physician that just got it. No one needed to explain it to her. Our role is so valuable everywhere.

Katie 23:20

valuable everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. It was a nice moment, actually. I feel like that, that, that I've been, like, looking for that in my career probably for a long time, and it was nice to, to hear that unexpectedly, actually, so... And yes, she was trained by midwives.

Laurel 23:35

she was trained by midwives.

Katie 23:36

By a very wise

Lindsay 23:37

Probably a very wise preceptor midwife. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Katie 23:41

So let's pivot slightly and talk about, are there any episodes of the season, whether it's your own or a different one, that you really gained something from, that you were surprised? Because you prob- you both know almost everybody that was on this. Not every single person, but, almost every midwife. Was there something you heard about that was surprising to you from someone, or any thoughts on that?

Laurel 24:04

I loved hearing yours, Laurel thanks It was cool to hear you because you, you, both of you became midwives at such a young age. Yeah. And you were just so green. If

Lindsay 24:14

Yeah. You were just so- If I change careers now, my goal of being the longest practicing midwife will be thrown off.

Laurel 24:21

off. But I just think about, like, how young you were and just thrown into these situations where you were expected to just, take control over situations and, anyway, any new midwife has so much to learn, but a young one has even more to learn. And then just to hear you talk about how you have evolved over the years, and you're just, you're, you're a boss, you know? You just, own these situations and are very confident in your skills, and you're passing your skills along to other people, and it was really cool to kind of like hear you talk out loud how you talk in your head in certain situations. Like, "Yeah, I've got this. Laurel, I've got this." Like, "I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna take care of this woman, and it might be a really stressful situation, but I'm gonna do this, and I can do this. I have all the skills." And, it was just fun to hear you, hear your evolution through that podcast. And I, I obviously see you as a very, confident and amazing midwife, so, but it was fun to hear you, talk about your former self and how far you've come over the years.

Katie 25:21

It was a really good

Laurel 25:22

point. Even though you're less than 40, and I still think you're, like, the same age as me, but, uh- Yeah I'm seven and a half years older than you are.

Katie 25:29

I'm the bridge in

Laurel 25:30

between two of them. Yeah. I

Lindsay 25:33

23 when I graduated midwifery school.

Laurel 25:35

That's amazing. Back

Lindsay 25:36

the day, when all the September birthdays were the youngest of the year, versus now all the September birthdays are the older side of their graduating classes, I was the younger end. So yeah, I've always been the baby in every situation, but not anymore. Now I'm turning 40,

Laurel 25:55

Shh. But

Lindsay 25:56

I graduated midwifery school in 2009. That's a long, that's a lot of years to add up quickly in the head. Like I have committed to tell people I've been a midwife for 15 years, and I realize when I say it out loud that that is not correct, it's more than

Laurel 26:10

Yeah.

Lindsay 26:11

One day I'll get the number of years right. I think I'm just gonna commit to like the fives. Like I'll tell people I've been a midwife for 15 years until I hit 20, and then I'll

Laurel 26:18

commit to also

Lindsay 26:19

to 20 years.

Laurel 26:20

It's like Carrie. She's like, "I've been a midwife for 40 years, or 30 years." I like Carrie's

Katie 26:26

I love Kerri's colorful versions of

Laurel 26:27

make 40, but yeah. Yeah. She's been a midwife for a long time.

Katie 26:31

Yeah. Well, I hit 20 next year, which is wild.

Laurel 26:34

I hit 15 next year. But I remember,

Katie 26:36

I don't know if you thought about this when you were, like, getting out of school, but I remember being like, Okay, I'll be this age," because I was young. You know, I'll be th- I'll be this age. I'll be 45 when I, well, I guess 44 when I hit 20 years, and I'll be, uh, 34 when I hit 10 years, and, what that would look like, and what my whole life would look like when I hit that experience level. Because in my head, 10 years was really the start of, solid experience. You are vetted at 10 years in my head. I just, like, made this up. I'm just saying. But and then you hit it, and you're like, "Oh, it's not necessarily a dramatic moment." But in my head, I thought it kinda would feel dramatic. It's like a lead-up.

Lindsay 27:19

Yeah. I feel like I'm at the place where, with, feeling your years of experience, like my job feels like I can do it pretty easily. I can show up and roll with any day that's presented to me, and I'll figure it out pretty much fine along the way. And I feel like that has been like, oh, I've done this for a long time." I'm not thinking about it all the time and figuring it out every step. I think I've seen so many things now that I don't have to figure it out all the time. So I feel like that's been my moment of, "Oh, yeah, this is what it feels like to be seasoned." I guess I could answer your question, about which podcast hit me the most. I feel like I've been so close of a friend to Lindsay that, I knew like I would say 95% of what she said on her episode. So I don't think any of that took me by surprise, which is why Lindsay's would not be my answer. I've heard most of Kerry's stories, and Kerry has, like you said, such a great storyteller. I loved her episode. I think the one, and this is the place that, through my experience at the birth center with, a student I've had recently, and I will nudge her to listen to this episode and, one of my nurses, which I will also nudge her to listen to this episode about home birth. And I think the home birth, midwife episode was the most eye-opening, 'cause I have never walked that path in midwifery before. I've been very hospital ba- based most of my career, and the one midwife that would transfer in to us took care of such a large onus population that that always seemed so other and unique. Like it never really melded with me before. I was like, "Oh, okay, we're just taking in an Amish patient. Like I kind of understand what we got going on here." But to hear like, um, more home birth related stories and that actually midwifery and home birth is really not that much different from what I'm doing. Like the location's different and some of the situations are a little bit different, but like the struggles and issues that they face are actually really similar to mine and, it just allowed me to think through like home birth on a different level. I feel like it really hit me at a time where I was already thinking about home birth a lot based on the person I was teaching at the time and, one of our nurses becoming a home birth midwife, and I was just like, yeah, like I can really wrap my head around this in such a different way and like the unique circumstances they have and... But like there's so much we all have in common. It resonated in a surprising way of yeah, like she has to worry about complaints to the nursing board just like I do. That is fascinating to me. I, I didn't think we would have so much in common. And like figuring out scheduling and your life and you're raising your children and are you going to do a different career at some point? Are you going to stick with it? Like there was just so much similarity she was experiencing that for so many years I felt like home birth was so other and nothing I could ever relate to, but then here I am, like fully fleshed out and thinking about home birth in so many new different ways. I'm like, "Oh, I get it now." Like somehow, I don't know why I didn't get it before. So I feel like her episode hit me the

Katie 30:19

But here I am like fully fleshed out and thinking about home birth in so many new different ways. I'm like, "Oh, I get it now." Like somehow I don't know why I didn't get it before. So I feel like her episode hit me. Yeah, that's Bayla. Yeah. So Bayla and I, were at the same practice. We were new grads together, and, I, I don't know that she thought she'd go to home birth actually, like when we first met each other. It was this progression that just naturally happened for her, and it, it's, it's been really interesting. And I do think that being a home birth midwife is really hard when you're a CNM, and you're held under nursing, which is not the easiest fit. I don't think I really appreciated, uh, how... You know, midwife, midwives did not wanna join on with the APRNs back in the day. Like, we, we didn't want, as a group, initially there was a lot of drama about whether or not we wanted to ourself more or less as an APRN and, and join them in, in their, um, structure, uh, state-wise and lobbying and all that stuff. We were kind of separated at first and not trying, and I think over time it made sense because the numbers make sense for us to join on with them. But there are pieces of it that don't fit well, actually. There are things that midwives do that don't really fit the APRN role well, and you see that in home birth because they don't really have that... APRNs don't really have that structure of what we're quite fighting for when we're doing home birth. And so being under a board of nursing can feel restrictive, actually, and it can feel like they get very uncomfortable very quickly with some of the things that as midwives we're supporting. So yeah, that, that was a good one. Bayla's, Bayla's impressive.

Lindsay 31:53

Yeah, that, actually, I'm glad you brought that up. That, that really, opened my eyes to a lot of things that she has to deal with, 'cause she's doing incredible work, taking care of these women for multiple pregnancies and... But also that she feels alone in a lot of it. You have your birth center community, we have our community at the hospital, and then we have a greater Delaware community of midwives, but it sounds like she does a lot of this on her own, and That's hard that she loves the work that she does, but she's just really putting herself out there and she has to defend herself alone to the nursing board if anything were to come up and,

Katie 32:30

community, at the

Laurel 32:31

system ...I think that's what it was, the hospital. Like, if she were to bring someone up. Yeah, she talked

Katie 32:35

and that's hard. Mm-hmm. That's hard that she loves the work that she does, but she's just really putting herself out there. She has to defend herself alone to the nursing board if anything were to come up and, um- Or even to the hospitals I think that was it, it was the hospital that told her to bring someone in. Yeah. Like, exactly, and it really makes you think about transferring and how we truly don't accept transfers well, like, on our end, right? We're hospital midwives, uh, Lindsay and I, and Laurel, you've been a hospital midwife. And I think all three of us have always taken a very gracious standpoint on accepting, uh, transfers from people that are doing home birth, um, the, both the midwife and the, the patient. But the hospital system doesn't, and there's a lot of judgment there, and they're being judged solely. Um, and then there's a lot of judgment on decisions that are within a midwife's scope, potentially, and legal, but that, that conversation of if a patient wants something that is not in standard of care, do you give it to them? And nothing is shown more clearly with that push and pull than home birth. You know, when you have that midwife that's in front of that patient, and I think that feminism that's coursed through midwifery, you have that moment of, "Okay, this patient is asking for something that's not in standard of care. Do I support the patient or do I support the system?" Which one weighs out? And I think Bayla has to deal with that all the time, day in and day out. And it's really easy to judge from the hospital and be like, "Why the hell did you do that?" But you don't have that woman in front of you crying. You don't have that woman that you know is gonna do something like free birth, for crying out loud. And so it's really easy. It's easy to judge and it's easy to not see that story, and so I think she did a really good job of putting that out there.

Lindsay 34:05

there. Yeah, I feel like you're getting out, this whole year of immersion in home birth culture through vicariously living through others. I feel like that, learning how to teach all the pros and cons of the choices you make and, you being the expert in the room of, "Okay, yes, I've gone to midwifery school. I've been precepted as a midwife. I've been trained all these hours, so I know a lot. How can I communicate that to the person in front of me who maybe just needs to hear some things in a different way, or be better informed about all the choices she's about to make? And then knowing that there could be some unsavory outcomes, or like outcomes that someone who has only given care in a hospital or like would cringe at. But that home birth midwife is like, "No, I'm here for this." This family knows what could happen, and they're accepting of all this, and I am here to support them and react and kind of go through that process and be trained in all these situations. I think that's very powerful to be that person to support them and hold their hands and be there with them, to be so well trained to respond to all these choices that folks are making. And, I don't want people to just free birth either, and these midwives that are doing these home births they're the line that are keeping moms and babies from like literally dying out there. They can look this person in the eye, they've developed this whole relationship with, be like, Yeah, we need to go." "I've gotta do something now." "We've hit the point of no return." And to have that midwife partner with you that whole time is so powerful that you can do some more things that like hospitals would just absolutely talk you out of the whole time. It's so interesting to learn from them.

Laurel 35:45

I was recently listening to Corey's about being a gestational carrier. No, a surrogate. Yeah. A gestational carrier. Like which organization. Yeah. And it was, it's, yeah. Corey's a pretty young midwife in our midwife group at the hospital that Katie and I work at. And it's been cool hearing that episode, just getting to know more because we just kind of see each other in passing with working. But pretty awesome that Corey's had three children, three biological children of her own, and then is being a gestational carrier for the second time around for the same, couple that lives,, in Midwest It's just amazing how selfless she is really in, in all of it, and how she wants to provide for this family. And also to hear her talk about being a gestational carrier and knowing exactly what's going on biologically with her own body.

Katie 36:35

And, um- I just want to point out, because I actually, a lot of these episodes, I don't have people say where they worked or I don't want to put anything on there. So I just want to take a second to say that, she did mention her gestational carrying place. And, that was spontaneous. She loves it so much that, we're not getting cutbacks from this. But it speaks highly to their organization that she was so happy with that organization.

Laurel 36:59

And one of the things you guys talked about was there's so much shady stuff going on with surrogacy and being gestational carriers. And I've seen it in practice as well. It's sort of like you're a almost 50-year-old woman, you have hypertension, and, Diabetes and this is what's happening right now you're you're being a gestational carrier like how did this ever happen or even ivf patients too you know just going you know having patients that are clearly not very healthy and someone you know implanted a pregnancy and then yeah and

Katie 37:29

That's why I allowed the- Yeah name to stay because I was like, "Mm, you know, she's speaking for something that she feels passionately is a, is a good source." Yeah. The other thing that I love about her episode and, Holly's episode and Carrie's second episode is some of the things that, I wanted to start highlighting in the podcast as the season went on were... And actually Angela's to an extent, things that are not just about midwifery. Corey has such an interesting, colorful life outside of being a midwife. There's so much that she has experienced, so many things that she's done that are worth a whole episode too. So it's been really fun to find out those pieces of people that I don't know quite as well as, like, we know each other, but I do know, and to, like, deep dive that.

Laurel 38:15

And you're good at deep diving. You really are. I've listened to all these conversations you have with people. I'm like, "Man, she can pull anything out of anyone." It's pretty, it's pretty awesome. You can just-

Katie 38:25

My moon sign is the same as Oprah's, just

Laurel 38:27

the same as yours, just so you know. There you go. There you go. It makes sense.

Katie 38:32

One of my best friends who I'm gonna have on, season two, it- was listening to all the episodes, and it was really funny because she was like, "Kate, I don't know if these are good for my mental health or bad for my

Laurel 38:43

mental

Katie 38:43

health because-"

Laurel 38:44

Is she a midwife? She's a midwife. Okay.

Lindsay 38:46

Okay.

Laurel 38:46

Yeah, yeah, this

Katie 38:46

is my friend, who I met in midwifery school at Georgetown, and her kids are little Timmy. So we're very close. But yeah, she was like, "I don't know if this is good or bad for me because where's my midwife tribe? I realize I've never worked with a midwife tribe." And that was interesting to hear from her. We're kind of each other's midwife tribes. I, I know you have Ellie, Lindy, and you, and Laurel, I'm, I think,, you've got lots of people in this category. But you get together and you're just, like, talking about all of the, the stuff, And, nobody makes me laugh more than Mary Beth sometimes with some of her stories. She's a mixture of Carrie and... Well, she's a lot like Carrie, actually. Carrie and Christina. And she just has these, great stories, and I'm always, laughing so hard I'm crying by the end. But I, I was sad when she said that, and it's true. She's followed the money, and that will be part of her episode probably, that she has always really valued productivity pieces, so she's been willing to go where she needs to go for the productivity, which a lot of midwives don't do. So it's kind of a nice counter to hear that perspective on things. But she's been missing her midwife tribe.

Lindsay 39:53

I'll just add to that we all know that's a really important thing to have in this line of work, and I think when we were all at that practice together and we had a total of nine midwives at our peak number of midwives, that was a really great core group, and we always had just a wonderful tribe. And then a lot of us have stayed close over the years and, are now back working together and we rely on each other. But also we've tried to a lot of support through the Delaware ACNM affiliate and have really not done a great job, and it's not because we haven't tried. I mean, it's been years. It's been, like, decades of trying to get this going, and I think now it's just sort of like we all have settled into our, our roles where we work, and it's fine. And, and the, affiliate is sort of, like, dormant right now. Maybe it'll, maybe it'll come back alive. I'm not sure. But another great thing that has come out of the current hospital where Katie and I are, where we have all these per diem midwives, is that there is almost, a l- another little tribe that has formed And there are those of us that work there full-time or part-time, and then there are people who work at, hospitals all around the state, and even in Maryland, and we're all part of this per diem/um, salaried group, and we've kind of created our own little network, kind of like how we're trying to do with the, with the ACNM. But we all have this kind of like trusted-- this trust among ourselves because we work for the same organization, but also in different parts of the state. So I really think that's a whole another, realm of this, of a great midwifery tribe, pretty cool and

Katie 41:28

great resource too. So, yesterday Lindsay and I were on together, and we were like, "We need to figure out our CMEs. They're not very good at our hospital, so let's poll everybody about their CMEs." And Lindsay sent out a message chat with all the PRNs and everyone, "Hey, guys. What, what's your, CME coverage?" And instantaneously, we had like seven different answers from seven different hospitals, and that was so nice. It was like so quick. And it just speaks to how useful that can be for us to navigate forward. Everybody relies on their boards, I think, in their heads. They're like, oh, the board's gonna be that, like ACNM or ACOG or whatever, they're gonna be that connecting piece. But I do think the connections happen more locally. And moving into the conversation about what we hope for, what, like I hope for season two and what you guys would like to hear from season two, I really want to make a connecting piece that is social. This has always been one of my goals of the podcast, that eventually I start having meetups, that I'm funneling, through the podcast. And that's one of my goals because I think that sometimes you don't need continuing education. You just need to be around other midwives and hear their stories and hear where they're at, and it really helps you know w-where to push. Like, what sounds reasonable? What have people been successful getting out of their, their current system, their current practice? What have they used to move forward in whatever way? And that can be really useful for your own journey and your own practice, more so than, an ACNM meeting where they're,, telling you how to do something that's not so local, like it's, it's more, organic this way

Lindsay 43:10

Katie and I, normally are on the same wavelength. Before we started recording, I was telling you both that I was slightly voluntold to get more involved with my community as a midwife from my current employer, and it's in my personality to hate being voluntold to do something.

Katie 43:27

something.

Lindsay 43:27

a good

Katie 43:28

have to do a personality profile and you're gonna find out why that is. I'm

Laurel 43:31

I think a lot of midwives feel that way.

Lindsay 43:33

think we're similar in this way. But the birth center is really strong in our community building. That- that's one of the things we always say to patients, what makes us unique is, we have a strong birth center community, come back for our moms and parents groups. you're gonna build a tribe here with your cohort just 'cause you're delivering at the same time. So we're... I'm gonna host a midwife support group, Katie, and now that I'm being recorded saying it, I guess I better actually follow through and do it. Because I think that you do lose that community, and unless you luck out and you're at a job to find your midwife support group, you can feel really isolated and fall out of the career really fast because you're gonna have these really emotional times, whether they're good, bad, or ugly, or you just need to talk through a case with somebody, or not even a case, but just, an awkward moment with a patient, or a co-midwife, or a nurse, or a doctor, and you're like, "I just need someone to talk me off a ledge, and feel normal, but this is not so abnormal and unique, but, this is something I just have to figure out with a person who's been here before," and to feel, that community. And all of the events that we had when the ACNM was a little more active in Delaware, I, I still have people tell me, We were really glad to have those meetups because I made more connections. I was able to get a preceptor. I, I know these faces now," and, There, there's only positivity that comes out of, having these gatherings.

Katie 45:01

Angela literally mentioned that in her episode as one of the things that she wants to be supported in. So

Lindsay 45:07

I should ask her to help co-host these support groups, is what you're telling me?

Katie 45:10

Well, she is, pretty local to you, so I think

Lindsay 45:12

so- She's, extremely local to me.

Katie 45:14

Yeah. But the good news is I will advertise your events and then, you can advertise my events that I have through Mindful Midwifery. I'm thinking that I will have an overnight probably in Lewis somewhere around November is my thought right now. And, just some calming type things. I'm envisioning a sound bath.

Laurel 45:38

sound bath. Sound bath time. Who doesn't love a sound bath?

Katie 45:42

a

Lindsay 45:42

bath time. Don't say sound,

Laurel 45:43

so I, I'm envisioning

Katie 45:45

all this together with Carrie, creating an agenda, and like show up, you know? Like, "Here's the rooms where, here's where we're gonna be staying. Come join us," kind of thing, and that'll be the start, and kind of go from there.

Lindsay 45:56

so many activity ideas.

Katie 45:58

I did envision that maybe we would have each midwife, not each midwife, so you'd have to volunteer, but it'd probably be like knitting hour with Laurel, you know? Gardening basics with Laurel or

Laurel 46:09

Oh, yeah.

Lindsay 46:10

gonna make terrariums.

Laurel 46:11

Ooh, I love that. You like that

Lindsay 46:13

idea?

Laurel 46:14

I love that. We're gonna do personality quizzes with me. Oh, yeah. You are QPJX. Can we, um, bring Monica back to

Lindsay 46:21

we, bring Monica back to do the star

Katie 46:23

signs? Yes.

Laurel 46:24

Oh. Yes. I was just talking to the nurse Alana. Our traveler. She's an acupuncturist. But she's leaving.

Katie 46:31

is leaving. Also, by the way, I believe she's from Idaho? Florida. Okay. Well, then she f- there's somewhere out west that she was, like Midwest. There's somewhere Midwest

Laurel 46:43

Oh, she was in Indiana. There you go, Indiana. Yeah, as a traveler. She

Katie 46:47

was talking about how they're starting a midwife program out there, and they're offering some unseen amount of money, uh, per year, Like, like $180,000

Lindsay 46:55

there,

Katie 46:56

so.

Lindsay 46:56

and they're offering some obscene amount of money, uh, per year, like, like $180,000. Yeah. So. Okay. So Katie, to answer your question about what I would like you to do in season two, I would like you to find midwives who are not from the Delaware area to interview. I don't know how you're gonna find these people,

Laurel 47:09

I would love to hear- No, you have a ton. I mean, between all of us, we have people we can... I mean, Allie's one. Like, we can feed you names of people. That has always

Katie 47:18

been my goal,

Lindsay 47:19

wanna hear about what it's like to work as a midwife in Texas, and deep dive or like the Midwest or like all places that are a little bit further away, like are, are they facing the same trials and tribulations that we are here? Is it different? Are they finding their tribes the same way we are? Like, Delaware's a really little state compared to I don't know, Wyoming,

Laurel 47:37

So

Katie 47:38

goal was always from the time I started this podcast, was that I would go and do my first like circle, right? So everybody that I knew really intimately, and then it would be one degree of separation, so all of your people's people, and then another degree of separation, so kind of just like spiraling out. But to answer your question, I can tell you decidedly, no, that there are different issues in different areas. F- So my friend, Mary Beth, who I was referring to earlier, she's been practicing in Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia, for a while. And because of the restrictions now with abortions and abortive services, it is like she is practicing in a different country. The things she has told me, it is insane. It is truly like we are not practicing in the same country. So I haven't timed it out to be able to interview her yet, But I do plan on doing that. The interesting thing is I feel really strongly still, even after this whole year of doing this, that I want to be in person with people. Because some podcasts, they, they do interviews, over the, the distance, virtual essentially. And I think you lose something. I think there's something to being in person with somebody, and especially when you're being vulnerable and you're sharing stories, and a lot of our, our stories are vulnerable. I, I just think it feels better. So I always thought it would just be a nice write-off, too, for traveling. Like, I envisioned I'm gonna be like, "Hey, everyone, I'm gonna go, record Comfort's episode in Texas. Who wants to come?" I also

Lindsay 49:12

also would love, I am not volunteering myself for this job, to see Katie O'Brien interviewed- Ooh and find, like, what we're gonna deep dive Katie O-- I mean, like, we learn a lot about Katie O'Brien through your other... like, through interviewing others, you have a lot of personal commentary about it all. But I feel like Katie O'Brien needs to be interviewed at some point.

Katie 49:34

point. I did have one of my close family friends that was like, "Hey,", she's not a midwife, but she's like, "I'll interview you, Katie." And

Laurel 49:42

And that would be cool for someone who's not a midwife to interview you, 'cause it was sort of like maybe-

Lindsay 49:47

Fresh set of eyes. Yeah.

Laurel 49:48

fresh set of eyes.

Katie 49:50

Yeah, so that was Tori, so I will, tell Tori that that was a requested episode. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay 49:56

It's on the table.

Katie 49:57

It's on the table. I know for sure I will be, interviewing Pat Gallagher as a home birth midwife. She has a very different angle than Bayla does as a home birth midwife, so I think that'll be a nice addition to the, the podcast.

Lindsay 50:12

I'm gonna throw out my student that I just, sent on her way. By the time you're ready for her, she'll be still within her first year of practice, so it'll be interesting to hear how she's doing out

Katie 50:21

Yeah, at a birth center, so that would be cool.

Lindsay 50:23

Well, she- so she's gonna do a home birth. Ah. Her goal has always been to do home births, so- Yeah I'd like to hear how she's doing in a year. She's in New York. She'll be in New York.

Katie 50:32

That's okay. That's pretty close. Yeah. Kerri has somebody up in New York, too. And then Maddie- Maddie I do wanna interview Maddie. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay 50:39

interview Maddie? Mm-hmm.

Katie 50:39

So... Uh,

Laurel 50:40

Uh, I have two kind of subjects that I think would be good. So abortion care or just, reproductive rights. for sure. Well, but also I think talking about how actually wonderful Delaware

Lindsay 50:52

is

Laurel 50:52

in that realm and I think we're so lucky for, for basically s- those of us, me, who basically are on the broadest edge of the spectrum in reproductive rights and, doing what a woman needs and wants for her reproductive health, we're so lucky to be in Delaware. And, we have laws in place to protect p- practitioners who are, performing abortion care and, up until the, the gestational age that's still legal in our state. And, I don't wanna take that for granted. And so, that would be really interesting to talk to people who are actually very active in that work, and then compare it to people like your friend in Georgia or Comfort in Texas, where it's so different. And they're seeing people that are, you know, basically their... Someone's water is broken at 21 weeks gestation, and you can't give them any medicine to help have the baby. They just basically have to... The woman has to stay in the hospital until she becomes septic, and then she can have the baby. And that would not ever happen in our hospitals here in Delaware.

Lindsay 51:52

I recently went on a slightly, probably abnormally long tangent during an interview, with someone who had grown up in South Carolina, and her grandmother was a granny midwife.

Laurel 52:03

Hmm.

Lindsay 52:03

And she attended women in labor who were Black and couldn't actually deliver in the white hospitals, and this was her story, and this is how she got into midwifery, and I w- I went on this... I don't know. Maybe it, freaked her out. I went on this long tangent of, this is why Delaware is so special to work in. We protect you here. We want you to practice at the top of your capabilities, and I don't know. We'll see if she

Katie 52:27

she- If you're listening to this podcast, Lauren's interviewee, let me know. I'll come interview you

Laurel 52:33

because that sounds really super interesting,

Lindsay 52:35

i, I, I just, I feel like we were competing with Asheville for a place to be, and I don't know, like Delaware compared

Laurel 52:40

to Asheville- Delaware and Asheville, wow, I love that you're making that comparison I mean,

Lindsay 52:44

Asheville seems like a cool place to live. I'm sure she ended up there. But yeah, like it was like really important to me that she hears like someone who's never come to Delaware know anything about our laws and regulations like this is wildly different from the state you're coming from, and this is why you would be a good fit here except for the fact,, it's not that far, but it's far enough like from your home base,.

Katie 53:03

we had an interview, the interview I was talking about earlier, that we had yesterday. I-- we actually said that. We were like, "This is-- Delaware is actually a really progressive state. The midwife laws here are very, very good. We have full independent practice, and some of the hospitals are not progressive, but the state itself is." I, I'm, I'm raised Catholic, so the abortion issue has always been very layered for me. However, I remember saying to one of our physicians that did abortive services, I said to her, I was like, "I'm so grateful for you, because this is a moral struggle that I can't go past." Like, I can counsel people on it, and feel fine about that. I can counsel people and, "Here's your options. Here's a safe person to go to." I can't be that provider for someone. I'm not in that, that headspace. It's, it's too layered for me, and we all have our things that we can't, go there with, whether it's your own personal trauma or whatever. But I am so thankful there are people that can do that safely for someone, and I'm in a state that can do that safely for someone. And as you were referring to earlier, there are certain aspects of this that no matter where you are on the spectrum, the care that these women are having is so scary. Like, it, it, even... Like, I, I truly believe that even the most conservative people, there are some parts of this that are too far. Like, it is way, way too far. That's not what they were envisioning when they imagined these rules. They were not envisioning that somebody was going to have to get septic. And so I think it's startling to people when they thought they were that conservative and that they thought that was the right thing to hear these stories of like, no, really, like, this is, this is so far out of what you envisioned when you put this rule into place that somebody was gonna, like, almost have to die before... Like, truly. Like, this is not, like, an exaggeration. This is, this is actually truly this scary. We're sending people out of the state to be able to take care of things that are medically emergencies.

Laurel 55:09

what you should put on your podcast? Have you heard of the midwife, or she's not a midwife, but she's like an NP in Delaware who is doing medical, like mail order abortion care, and she was, she... There's a whole New York Times article about her. I think she actually is in Middletown, and then there's a lawsuit against her as well. That might be really controversial, but I could get her name for you. So

Katie 55:32

So when I first started out, I was super anxious about controversial stuff. It's not really in my personality to, like, trailblaze directly into controversy. Like, "Here I come, controversy." That's not me. But I've had to embrace a little bit of that because you can't get a true story if you're that fragile with it, so

Laurel 55:51

True. Okay, the other thing I think you should talk about in an episode is, social media and how that's influencing pregnant people and families. Pregnant persons and families, and the ideas that they- Every time they do-

Lindsay 56:06

hand- uh, that someone asked you if they should harvest and collect their colostrum before they deliver, and

Laurel 56:13

Start pumping at 37 weeks I already have one stock

Lindsay 56:16

stock answer. I'm like, "This hasn't been a thing since social media came out." I've been doing this job for, I don't know, 15 years or so, and this has only recently

Laurel 56:25

become an issue.

Lindsay 56:26

So I guess you can collect colostrum, but, just definitely know this has only been a thing since social media's been

Laurel 56:33

Yeah, this has been put into your mind.

Lindsay 56:35

more than one of those items, but, collecting colostrum is, the number one slightly non-convers- I'm not even going to vitamin K, like- No,

Laurel 56:44

that's, that's my next... Yeah, vitamin K. Not even delaying it, but just totally denying vitamin K, right? Because you, you feel like you see these birth plans in the hospital, no vitamin K, all immunizations need to be delayed. Some of that is, I, I respect people's decisions, but there's so much influence from TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and whatever else that, people are just believing a lot of these influencers, and it's not based on any science, and it's so confusing with our-

Lindsay 57:15

science. What's the full picture? Let's pan out, fully. Where are you getting your science from? Because is this science-based, is this evidence-based, is it just... I had a patient who had a very scientific background. She was, she was in a chemistry lab biologist, like, researcher. So she had, this heavy science brain, and she's Why do newborns need vitamin K? I can't wrap myself- my head around the biologic need why they're born deficient. What's going on here that they need vitamin K?" And I went through my whole, we- we're putting kids in cars, and y-

Laurel 57:49

Like our

Lindsay 57:50

risk as a human is different than when we birthed in our home and we never left. But she's "I just, I can't... I don't know. Like, why? Why is this happening? Why has this ever been an issue?" And, then I'm like, on the spur of the moment, I'm like, "Well, yeah, why? I don't

Laurel 58:04

I-

Lindsay 58:04

And

Laurel 58:04

Let's figure it out together. And I, and I

Lindsay 58:06

just like, you know what? Humans, we always know are born immature. Like, when you look at all our mammalian counterparts, like they are born like

Laurel 58:13

ready to go. Yes. They're walking, like wobbling. Yeah.

Lindsay 58:16

equivalent of a kindergartner. And because we have these big old smart brains, and then I started thinking about like the human pelvis and why we have like these tight turns, and like we are born at capacity for our big old heads that have to fit in. We know there's so many things that are immature about our newborns. I'm like, I think that's all it is with vitamin K. Like we know that there's a lot of things about newborns are immature. Their immune systems are immature. Their clotting factors are immature. We have to help them feed so much. Like they just don't latch on and do it themselves with minimal intervention. I'm like, I don't know. I think it's just one more thing that our little immature babies do even though they're born in full term, like they're term. They're on time. But like

Laurel 58:55

We know yeah, we need a lot of

Lindsay 58:57

I don't know, there was like this like whole like,

Laurel 59:00

"Oh, man, these questions,

Lindsay 59:02

they're really different now that I've gotta find an answer spur of the moment."

Laurel 59:05

Yeah, and I feel like the language in the birth plans is just very spec- specific in a different way. Like, it used to be delayed cord clamping. Okay, that's fine. Now it's like, delayed cord clamping until the cord is white and there's no pulsation felt by the mother or the father, you know? And it's, I'm

Lindsay 59:23

They could come to

Laurel 59:24

none of this stuff is in the

Lindsay 59:25

standard of care.

Laurel 59:26

are you... Yeah, No, and it's fine. It's fine. But it wasn't called

Katie 59:29

white before, right? Like, so I think there's like

Laurel 59:33

You know, and I'm fine with that, but I'm just like, where is this language coming from? Like, where are you getting this? Who's feeding this to you? And, I was that, I am that person, I was that person to want that for my own, but I'm seeing such a mainstream population wanting that and, demanding that, and then d- you know, refusing the vitamin K, refusing all the vaccines. And it just doesn't seem to be based on anything except what they're hearing on TikTok, I guess. Mm-hmm. That's where I'm coming from, and I think a podcast would be really interesting to hear how people are influenced and how providers are handling their care. So that is actually

Katie 1:00:08

my entire premise of my second podcast I'm launching. It's going to be called Mindful Midwifery Presents: Calm, Collected, and Consented Childbirth. Yeah. And it is essentially about trying to get away from this polarized view on childbirth. Let's talk about how we can take some of this information that we're getting from these sources and break down where it's coming from, and how we can apply it to our, our own individual lives, right? Because I think that's part of the problem. Oh, by the way, they just came out with something saying that birth plans are actually, good. It was, like, a, a research article I s- saw

Laurel 1:00:46

are good. Like they actually- No, I think birth plans are really good. I do. And I'm not the type of person that's like, "Oh, they did this birth plan and it's all gonna be thrown out the window." I mean, there are definitely people who are very, have this very skeptical view about it.

Katie 1:00:59

that you don't like, right? That's what it always comes down to, is the rigidity. So

Lindsay 1:01:02

feel like birth plans are like a conversation piece of like-

Laurel 1:01:05

right. Talk about the options. Yeah. Right?

Lindsay 1:01:07

for me to figure out where your priorities are. Are there hiccups in the road that maybe we can pre-counsel on? Yeah, I think they're like a conversation starter,

Katie 1:01:16

Um I like to call them birth goals or birth wishes because it's a little bit more in line. It's not really a plan. It's like what... If everything goes perfectly f- In, in the vision of what I am hoping for, kind of like your dream wedding, but then it monsoons on your dream wedding, so what does that look like? This literally happened to my brother, so we had to move

Laurel 1:01:35

plan B?

Katie 1:01:36

our entire outdoor wedding in three hours to an indoor location. You know? Like, life happens. So that's kind of what this podcast, I'm launching it this summer, is gonna be about, is just how to merge all of that It's, it's mostly geared towards hospital birth, honestly, but, how to come and be able to have that conversation with your provider in an educated fashion. Like, "This is what my goals are. This is why I'm coming to the table with this. Does this fit for me?" Because I just

Lindsay 1:02:06

I need to subscribe to that as a provider so I can counsel better. Thank you, Katie, for figuring that one out for me. If I can survive a lawsuit or two, I should be able to survive social media as a provider, and I have a feeling that your tool will be a big crutch

Katie 1:02:22

as a provider, and I have a feeling that you're tool will be a big crutch of mine. Well, that's what I hope. I, I feel like I function really well in gray. Like, I live in gray. And so for me, it's always been about like, okay, this is... And motivation and personality is like, I'm very good at predicting why somebody might have a motivation towards whatever they are. And so I use that to kind of be like, "Okay, you're coming from this angle, and I'm coming from this angle, and how do we merge these things?" Because we're both actually... There's, there's so much antitrust in the hospital sy- system, and I understand how we got here, I truly do, but, but it's not helpful to patients to have this much distrust. We have to be able to, merge that and figure out how do we, cocoon them, So that they understand that we're not, we're not the enemy. We're not the enemy. And most of the time, I said this with Corey, like Corey's episode, she was talking about how she delivers the placenta, and it was just kind of interesting, compared to how I have delivered the placenta, and it's "Oh, that's interesting. I tried that with a patient, worked perfectly well." Most of the time, things people are asking, they might be out of the box, but they're not, impossible. It's just, merging, your comfort level, And them understanding that there's not 100% of the time that this is right. What does crack me up is when it's all hitting the fan, right? Everything is hitting the fan, and then the father of the baby says to you something like, Well, we need to make sure that that cord is white." And you're like, Um, we almost all died here, but yes, let's make sure the cord is

Laurel 1:03:48

wiped."

Katie 1:03:48

Um, so my Facebook work right now,

Lindsay 1:03:50

Um, at my place of work right now, we have birth goals. So, like, we, we figured this one out, and

Laurel 1:03:56

a birth plan I

Lindsay 1:03:57

love when patients fill this out diligently. It's almost always the first-timers or the first-time birth center-ers. And there's something like, "Dad really wants to catch," or, they want us-- they want their music on or their aromatherapy or whatever it is, and they come in, and they're doing all the things just fine, but they don't have their aromatherapy out, or they don't have their music on. And I'm just like, "Wait, your birth goals have very clearly stated you wanted aromatherapy and music."

Laurel 1:04:24

Like, "Come on, bring it on, guys. I'm Elizabeth Lavender." "You

Lindsay 1:04:27

want the Wi-Fi code so you can connect your streaming? And, did you bring a speaker?

Laurel 1:04:33

I, I'll go dig

Lindsay 1:04:34

out the aromatherapy thing. I don't know where it's at, but I'll do my best to find it." And then-

Laurel 1:04:39

I want these goals more than you want these goals" I, I, this is really important. This is part of my filling the

Lindsay 1:04:43

cup that I am fulfilling your wishes here

Laurel 1:04:45

today. And then I'm

Lindsay 1:04:46

like, when dads catch, and, dads are like, Frozen in the moment of "My child is literally emerging," I'm like,

Laurel 1:04:52

"Come on, get your hands

Lindsay 1:04:53

in.

Laurel 1:04:54

Do it. Do the thing." Come on. Put your hands on your chest. Here we go. Well- And it's just like, uh, maybe that was too much for

Lindsay 1:05:01

a game time decision to, touch the child emerging, like that's fine. And then I'm like, okay, was that enough? They didn't deliver the head, but they got the body and shoulders, and then helped me lift the baby to the mom's... Does that count? Then I'm like micromanaging this in my head. I'm like, did we achieve the goal of dad catching?

Laurel 1:05:18

did. Yes. I think touching was enough. And like, was like, oh, that, like, awesome.

Lindsay 1:05:24

so did that, did that work out well? Like, can I get some, can I get some feedback as the midwife for the next dad?

Laurel 1:05:30

next dad? How could I do better to

Lindsay 1:05:32

facilitate someone who's never caught a baby catching a baby literally in the moment? Like, should I do more prep work? Well,

Laurel 1:05:38

work? Well, that's what I think. I think these birth plans, birth goals, it's like all these things that people are either reading about or being told through social media is like what should be part of the ideal birth, that's what it's, what's feeding all of it. And it's great that they're thinking about it, but it can't be... don't know. Some of it is just, do they even really want that anyway? Right? Right? Like, doesn't he just wanna like- No maybe he just wants to stand by her and be by her and see the baby coming up to her chest and being there. Yeah. But it's this thing to be catching the baby, and- Like- that's what it's, the coolest thing they've seen on social media, and that's why that's on their birth plan. I've

Lindsay 1:06:16

it on social? I bet

Laurel 1:06:17

Or the mom zero

Lindsay 1:06:18

feed. Yeah. Maybe like 3% have this feed, but like, this totally was written by the woman, and like her handwriting. Nowhere on there dad's handwriting. And I'm like, what about him? What is her, what is his desires? What does he want out of this birth? Did mom just throw that on there? Are we talking about this live for the first time that dad wants to catch the baby, but dad never, ever envisioned himself catching this baby, and we're in the tub, and tub births can get a little icky. And he's like, "I'm sorry, you want me to put my hands where?" In what kind of water?"

Laurel 1:06:55

water?" Or like,

Lindsay 1:06:57

like in the bed where like it's like a little messy, and like, what, what did my person put on that piece of paper? Can I see that birth plan now please?

Laurel 1:07:06

birth plan now please?

Lindsay 1:07:07

Only at the birth center, only at the birth center do these situations exist right now.

Laurel 1:07:12

at our hospital it's more like, "Oh, is dad not on his phone? Great. Awesome. He's, he's like actually looking at what's happening.

Lindsay 1:07:18

happening

Laurel 1:07:19

That's great."

Katie 1:07:20

I really enjoy, my favorite part of doing childbirth classes was actually just dealing with fathers because they are... Th- they just take this, side seat a lot of times, and I had classes where, this was one-on-one classes, right? And the, the father baby would be very quiet throughout most of the classes, and it'd be mostly, the, the woman, talking about what she wants, whatever. And then I just remember this one time, at the very end, like the last 15 minutes of these four-hour, two session classes, the father was like, I'm really scared that I might have to make the decision between saving her life and the baby's life." And he said it just like this, right? And I was like,

Laurel 1:08:00

I might have to make the decision between saving her life or the baby's life." He said it just like that, right? And

Katie 1:08:03

one-on-one sessions at this point, and you're just now voicing that. But yeah, I understand where, where you're at, and I will tell you that as long as she signs that consent form saying that we can do the things we need to do, you don't need to worry about that. You will never be put in the situation of deciding whose life is more important." But he carried this through the entire thing completely silently. And so I actually, I had really wanted to do men only childbirth classes... And I did do one of them, but it was hard to, to advertise. But I do think that they don't, to your point, Laura, I don't think that they voice stuff, and then it's, like, surprising. Some of these guys are bringing a lot of anxiety to the table, and they don't say that. And so then it's like, Here you go." And they're like,

Lindsay 1:08:53

and they're like, "Okay, I'm, I'm here, but, I'm also distracted in a good way, but I'm still present in the room. I am not a trained birth support person, but I am here, and if I just stay distracted just enough, I can survive this whole process." So we will have a partner class at the birth center. So I think it's being taught by another birth center dad who has some nursing experience. So I'm really excited to see what the uptake is gonna be on that class. If it's gonna maybe fulfill this need a little bit.

Katie 1:09:24

I think it'll be great if the guys actually go., And I don't know the exact marketing tool on how to get them there because I struggled with that, but-

Lindsay 1:09:32

I do a direct eye contact encouragement to attend.

Katie 1:09:36

technique.

Laurel 1:09:37

attend. That'll work.

Lindsay 1:09:39

You

Laurel 1:09:40

You keep lo- you keep

Lindsay 1:09:41

Be like, "Hey, we've got this new class, directed to birth partners. It's taught by one of our birth center dads, and I think you should sign up

Katie 1:09:48

As in you should sign up.

Laurel 1:09:49

As in Go ahead and do that before we go. Here's the form.

Lindsay 1:09:56

There's the door.

Katie 1:09:58

I will say that I already have a vision for season two, that we're gonna- the three of us are gonna get together again, and we're gonna have an entire episode on how to mentor. We're gonna break down like one through whatever, one through 10, 12, 20, this is what you, you need to do. Because I remember when I first started, as lead midwife, trying to put some of our orientation together, I bought this book from ACNM on it, and it was only kind of helpful. And I think it's not rocket science how to mentor. And this is whether you're mentoring a student or even your children, whoever. There's ways to... things that you should be doing, like everybody should be doing when they go to mentor someone. Whether that's like preceptorship or, they're a new grad and you're mentoring them. But I think the three of us are really passionate about that, and we're all, three of us, pretty good at letting someone be their own person through that story, which I know is like number one, let that person be themselves, and we feel very passionately about that. So anyway, that's definitely an episode we're gonna do season two. Might be the first episode. I don't know. We'll see.

Lindsay 1:11:05

it. I would love to poll all of my mentees and see what their thoughts are. You should poll my mentees first. Maybe we can play sound clips of my mentees. Oh.

Katie 1:11:15

Hmm. It's

Lindsay 1:11:15

That'd be a great learning experience for me.

Katie 1:11:17

learning experience for me.

Lindsay 1:11:19

The student that I just finished, she's gonna do a lot of home birth, like I alluded to. In her last day I was like, "So how do you think you did?"

Laurel 1:11:26

then I

Lindsay 1:11:26

I was like, "Well, how do you think I did? You were a bit of a challenge. I've never trained someone who's gonna go into home birth knowing that from the start. I need to know, like,

Laurel 1:11:37

where can

Lindsay 1:11:37

where can I improve as your preceptor? I'm probably not gonna stop teaching anytime soon or taking on students. Please, there are things I need to do better. I, I feel like there's been, like, consistent threads of what my students have told me they've done well with, but I don't know, I need like the criticisms of where do I need to grow as your mentor, for future mentees?"

Katie 1:11:55

for future mentees? What'd she tell

Lindsay 1:11:56

you? She didn't have anything to tell me. There was like no strong criticism. So either I'm not doing everything perfectly or maybe it wasn't the right platform for her to share on the spot. Maybe she'll have thought of some things that,

Katie 1:12:09

I like to tell people I'm mentoring, I'm like, "Everybody has different ways of doing things, but it's like a toolkit that you're developing, right?" And in this moment you might say, "Oh, Laurel does it this way, or Lindsay does it this way, and-- or Kate does it this way." And right now Lindsay's way is definitely not working. Or Laurel's way is definitely working. You just, you're pulling it out, but you have those pieces. So it's not necessarily about right or wrong, it's about like showing that angle, and then sometimes that angle works, and sometimes that doesn't. But you have lots of different tools. You can't, solve a wrench problem with a screwdriver So, I'm looking forward to season two. That's gonna launch in October. My current plan is that I'll run October through April from now on. My first season was just about getting the episodes out, 'cause I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to editing, so it took me a while to get comfortable editing. But now I'm better at that, so, I plan on October through April for that, and then this other podcast, like I mentioned, I'm gonna start over the summer, so... That

Lindsay 1:13:10

That sounds great, Katie.

Laurel 1:13:11

Yeah, it's awesome. Exciting.

Lindsay 1:13:12

We're here for that.

Katie 1:13:13

Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun, by the way, to have two of you, because I had to buy a whole new microphone set for this, and I was like, "Oh, God. I gotta buy another

Laurel 1:13:21

So it's very professional.

Katie 1:13:23

a professional. But I enjoyed it. It's been really fun, because we do this, we do these, uh, gatherings at your house kind of regularly, Lindsay, so it's been nice to do that here. Sit

Lindsay 1:13:32

therapeutic.

Laurel 1:13:33

Super

Lindsay 1:13:34

Very therapeutic.

Laurel 1:13:35

Very therapeutic.

Katie 1:13:36

And Lindsay was worried about her dog, Teddy, but Teddy has been completely silent and well-behaved, so... He hasn't

Laurel 1:13:41

bark at all. No trains today. Oh,

Katie 1:13:43

Oh, yeah.

Laurel 1:13:44

Well,

Katie 1:13:45

well, thank you.

Laurel 1:13:46

Thanks, Katie.

Lindsay 1:13:47

Katie. Till next tim

1:13:48

And that's a wrap on season one. What started a year ago after tons of research, meeting with friends, hitting record, and a whole lot of editing has turned into something I'm genuinely proud of. Honest conversations, real women, and a whole lot of growth packed into one year. Thank you to Laurel and Lindsay for coming full circle with me. Thank you to all of my guests, and thank you to all of my listeners, some of who I've met and some of who I haven't. It has been so rewarding to me to have RNs, midwives, and friends and colleagues come up to me and say they've been listening in. I hope this season has given those listening some wisdom. And if you are soul searching for your next adventure, starting something new, or hoping to heal compassion fatigue or burnout, I genuinely hope these episodes have helped. Enjoy your summer. Season two drops in October, and if today's conversation is any preview, we're just getting started. Until then, take care of yourselves the way you take care of everyone else. See you next season