Brain Aware Podcast
The Brain Aware Podcast, exploring the science of success. We harness the power of human biology to help people—and organizations—rise to their potential. Join internationally recognized thought leader Dr. Britt Andreatta and talent strategist Justin Reinert as they explore the neuroscience behind today's workplace challenges, like change, teams, and leadership.
Each episode unpacks actionable insights from cutting-edge research to help you create environments for people to do their best work. Whether you’re an executive, people leader, talent professional, or lifelong learner, you’ll walk away with tools you can use today. Listen to become more brain aware.
Brain Aware Podcast
Al Dea—Finding Stability When Everything Around You Is Changing
Al Dea shares his journey from management consulting to founding The Edge of Work, a leadership and talent development consulting firm focused on helping leaders build skills for today's workplace. He explores how navigating personal and professional change has shaped his approach to leadership development.
• From technology transformation consultant to leadership development expert focused on people and culture
• Experienced the challenge of feeling out of control during multiple rapid organizational changes at Salesforce
• Found stability by becoming a "sturdy rock" for others and identifying what remains constant during change
• Recognizes that new parenthood and other major life changes teach valuable lessons about adaptation
• Emphasizes that all work fundamentally involves change—getting people to start, stop, or modify behaviors
• Recommends leaders start with self-awareness before guiding others through change
• Suggests starting where momentum already exists rather than focusing on skeptics
• Promotes progress over perfection and creating psychological safety for experimentation
• Uses the leadership tools of "what you say, what you do, and what you reward" to create change-ready cultures
Connect with Al on LinkedIn
You're listening to the Brain Aware Podcast, where we explore the brain science of success and discuss evidence-based approaches to tackle workplace challenges. And now your hosts, Dr. Britt Andreatta and Justin Reinert. Welcome to the podcast. Al Dea, founder of the Edge of Work.
Britt Andreatta:Al, I am so excited to talk to you. As you know, we've been friends for a long time and I feel like I've really watched your journey flourish over the years, both personal and professional. Thank you for taking time to be part of our inaugural season. That means a lot to me and I'd love for us to just launch and tell us a little bit about yourself and your career journey, how you've gotten to where you are now.
Al Dea:I'd be happy to. It's great to be here with you. I feel so grateful for all of your support and friendship. And I guess, just to get started, my career professionally started back when I was working in management consulting for a large consulting firm. I was doing a lot of work around technology transformation within large enterprises. This was when we were just starting to get to the cusp of digital transformation. That's how I found your work.
Al Dea:I was doing a lot of work at the intersection of technology, people and change and thinking about as organizations were adopting new technologies. What was the people impact of that? How do we update the organization, rewire the operating system to enable people to thrive with these new technologies and change? I did that for a while and went to business school, got my MBA, got back into the change management and technology space, but started getting more involved into the people and culture and leadership side of things. Because, Britt, as I know you know very well, whenever you're doing these big transformation and change projects, so much of it really does come down to what leaders say, do and reward, as well as the cultural norms and behaviors of the organization. It was through that lens where I fell in love with the world of leadership development. I just believe it was so great of an opportunity to kind of develop leaders so that they could lead to their abilities but also so that they could drive greater impact inside of the organization. So that led me to exploring this world of leadership development.
Al Dea:I had started a side hustle of doing some coaching, training and some facilitating outside of my core day job, eventually left Deloitte to go over to the world of Salesforce where I spent the next few years. That side business of coaching, speaking and training grew each year. During the pandemic, to keep a long story short, I realized that the side business could actually become a real thing and so eventually decided to leave Salesforce to kind of build my own company, the Edge of Work, which is a leadership and talent development consulting firm, which is what I do today. So the privilege of working with organizations to help develop their leaders. So really designing, facilitating, building leadership programs that help leaders build the skills they need to be effective leaders in today's workplace. So that's where I am today and that's what I'm up to now. But yeah, I think when we first met it's ironic that the theme of this podcast is around change, really looking at that intersection of technology, transformation and people, and how do you help people change so that the organization can work in a new way?
Britt Andreatta:Congratulations on all your many successes. It's been really fun to watch.
Justin Reinert:So, Al, as you think back on your career, you've probably gone through a lot of different changes. I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing one that was memorable, either something that went smoothly, or maybe one that was more challenging.
Al Dea:Yeah, it's funny and humbling because, as someone now who, particularly from a lens of leadership development Britt, as I'm sure, and Justin, for you, I'm sure this comes up a lot Even if we're doing a leadership development program, inevitably change kind of comes up and we end up talking about it and sharing about it and discussing it, and then you have to do it for yourself and then all of a sudden it becomes a lot less fun to talk about it and deal with and manage. And I think that's kind of my first experience with this is just that it is an incredibly human thing to both have to deal with change but also to be challenged by it, right, even for people like us who are curious and genuinely interested in learning more about it and seeing it. The kind of experience that sticks out the most to me is when I was working at Salesforce in the technology industry. You're kind of signing up for understanding that part of what you're doing is working at a fast-paced environment where there will be opportunities for growth and change. I remember going through an experience where in a span of maybe a year we went through about five or six different organizational shifts and changes, ranging from new leaders to new teams, to consolidations, to merging of different teams and projects.
Al Dea:I think what was so unsettling at first were two things.
Al Dea:Number one was it was one of those experiences where you just realize or at least I realized, how much of this was outside of my control.
Al Dea:Right, and as someone who has always believed in taking agency, in terms of as someone who's always believed in wanting to take control of things and believing that I could take control, it was hard, at least initially, to understand and grok the fact that so many of these things just seemed way out of my control. I think the other thing that was particularly challenging was is that when you're constantly going through all of those changes, it's really hard to find stability and having a bedrock to keep you strong, even when things around you feel like they're spinning.
Al Dea:And I would say maybe the last piece it that was really really hard was it got to the point where you, just because there were so many changes, even this thought of trying to take this step or take these projects or do this thing. By the time you got to the third change, you kept asking yourself is it even worth it? Because what if another change happens and renders all of this work useless. I see you nodding your head because clearly you have worked in a company before where this has happened.
Justin Reinert:So w Al, what did you learn from that experience?
Al Dea:I think what it really taught me, though, was a couple of things and stuff that I've tried to bring to me personally to this day, as well as, certainly, when it comes up in a lot of leadership programs that I run. So the first thing is that, sometimes, when there is so much that's changing, if you can be the person who just is that sturdy rock for yourself but for other people, that can often give you a sense of direction and purpose. I have tried to, when possible, particularly in those situations in my life, to kind of be that for other people. It helps them, but it helps me in terms of helping me again find that sense of purpose.
Al Dea:I think the other thing, what it taught me, was that and I would learn more about this later, Britt, partially through you, but also through doing more research on this isn't that we are as Britt, as you talk about? You know, we are wired to resist, right, and we are a lot of times wired to resist things that we perceive as threats, but what, sometimes, we do need in times of change. We need to understand what is sturdy and what's keeping us the same. Just even acknowledging and understanding and being able to name things like this is not changing. This is staying the same, because unless everything is 100% changing, there will always be some constants, and so that was another lesson I learned from it.
Al Dea:Even when those moments get tense, of just being able to tell myself but here's what's the same here, or this is not what's changing, or this is what I can keep doing, that has been particularly helpful. The last thing I learned from it is not having to suffer alone, particularly in the sense of the organizational. If you work in an organization, most of the time, if you're going through a change, you will not be the only one experiencing that change, which also will probably mean that if you are struggling with it, you will probably not be the only one who is struggling in some capacity. Knowing that I didn't have to suffer alone or in silence, and that I could go outward and rely on others and find community in that, that was something that I've tried to take with me to this day. It was a really tough year, but it definitely taught me a lot.
Britt Andreatta:And what about right now?
Al Dea:Great question, we were just talking before we hit record. I've got a four-month-old son. This is our first kid being a parent, being a father, and I've been married now for about two years, so I'd still consider myself to be at the early stages. Being a partner in that regard has definitely been a big change. Broadly speaking, over the past four years I have moved cities, left corporate, started a business, got engaged, got married and had a child and all things that like are amazing and great are all things I wanted to do.
Al Dea:Might recommend to other people to not do all of those things in such a short, compressed amount of time if you have your druthers, but life works out in funny ways and I'm certainly grateful for all of it. I'm in the thick of change at the moment and I am drawing on many of those lessons I talked about previously when I can. Every day is different and there are days when I do it better than others, but those are certainly big ones and even like little things. I mean, Britt, I know, I know you have a child, but I feel like, as a new parent, there are. You know, particularly with a young infant. , they go through so many changes and, as a result of them going through so many changes, you as the parents have to adapt and change with them, and the only difference is that they have all of the feelings and no skills. But we, as the adults, have feelings as well as skills, and so we have to kind of guide that in a lot of ways. The latest one is like we're trying to get them to take a bottle and it's really really challenging. They can't respond, and so it's like I feel like right now you are catching me at a really good time because I am in the thick of everything that your podcast and so much of your work is about. I wish I could tell you that every day is great and I have all the answers, or that many of the lessons I learned, that I'm applying them and everything's perfect, because I'm not. But I think, more than anything, it just is the humble reminder, at least for me, that I'm just as human as everyone else. Sometimes I can take solace in that.
Britt Andreatta:Two books that saved me during being married and a mom were "Baby Proof Your Marriage. It was so helpful Get it and read it with your partner because there's some great nuggets in there about you know. e stress of a baby adds a whole new dynamic to a partnership and it really helped us navigate that. The other one, based on the science of how the brain works, Dr Alan Kazdin has this great parenting method that's really built on how we form habits and emotional regulation and all that good stuff. So he's got a book out. I think it's called the Kazdin Method of Parenting or something like that. Two more recommendations as you navigate this stage of your life.
Al Dea:I'll take anything I can get at this, so thank you.
Justin Reinert:Al, it's so funny to hear you talk about a four-month-old baby been married for two years, because I feel like we just met but apparently we didn't, because I remember when you were getting engaged. So yeah, it's crazy how time flies. But to pivot a little bit, given the focus of your career today on developing leaders for today's world of work, how does change play into the programs and initiatives that you're driving in organizations?
Al Dea:It's a great question. One of the things I often think about is that, whether people realize it or not, everyone is more or less in the business of change. It's just whether or not you've actually realized it. If you take an average company, think about the things that employees do every day. They launch new programs, build processes, revamp old processes, they come up with new ideas to solve customer challenges, they try to solve problems that they couldn't have solved previously. All of those things involve getting someone, or groups of people, to either start doing something, stop doing something or change what they're doing, which, fundamentally, is about change.
Al Dea:And so to your question about how does change come up in terms of developing leaders. Well, number one, I would argue that it is prescient for everyone, but in particular, I think, for leaders. It plays a critical role, because so much of what a leader fundamentally is trying to do is to help a group of people achieve a collective result, and your ability to do that rests a lot on your ability to inspire, motivate, empower, enable a group of people to make tweaks or changes of some kind. And so it absolutely, I think, is relevant and prescient just to how work gets done today and, as a result is reflected in a lot of the programs that I'm a part of, both in terms of the content and curriculum and behaviors, as well as the conversations that come up when we have discussions, even if we're trying to work on feedback or delegation, inevitably something maps back to change For those of us paying attention to the news, regardless of where we are in the world.
Al Dea:It's hard to not be in an industry or geography right now where, as a leader or employee, you're not dealing with change right or you're not impacted by one change or multiple changes or all other types of things. Perspective like it absolutely should be something that we should be focused on, because it's the reality, I think, for a lot of us. The more we provide awareness and tools and understanding of how we can kind of navigate through that, I think the better that we're going to be able to actually equip leaders with things that they can do to help their people not just get through stuff but thrive in it. It can be really challenging when you have that happening to you but don't necessarily understand why it's happening or have tools to kind of navigate through it.
Britt Andreatta:Absolutely. You were around for the first edition of Wired to Resist, but the new edition is coming out just in a couple weeks. I'm going to send you a copy, but I added a whole section chapter big drivers of change: technology, the environment and climate change, organizational growth and development and human consciousness it's the intersection of those four things that are really accelerating what we're all experiencing right now. So I wanted people to have kind of that bigger picture of like these are all the pressures that are creating change in an organization, particularly with technology. AI is completely shifting how we define work, what it can look like and who does it. We're in a special time right now. It can feel overwhelming and a little bit scary, but it's also a big time of transformation, you know, in our country, in our organizations, globally. So I'm curious to see how it all shakes out. But I know change can feel overwhelming, even if it's stuff you're excited about, right.
Al Dea:1 00% like I mentioned previously, a lot of those things that have happened to me in my personal life. Those are all things that arguably I wanted and, to your point, they can still be really hard and I think it's okay to acknowledge that, even for things that you do want or you can rationally agree are a positive thing, it can still be hard to navigate it, because we're humans and that's just how we are.
Britt Andreatta:Let's dig in a little bit on when you're helping an organization navigate some kind of change. What are some of your go-to strategies that you have found to be useful?
Britt Andreatta:If you can identify a couple of things like I really like doing X, Y, Z or during this change, we found that these couple strategies really helped, I'd love to get into the tactical part a little bit.
Al Dea:Sure, and I'd be curious to get your feedback on these, just because you live and breathe this each and every day. There's a couple of things I always love to start with. I think the first thing I love to start with is just like starting with where you are, and for those of you who have been on an airplane recently, you will remember the expression to put on your oxygen mask first before assisting other people. And that's where I love to start, particularly with leaders. If you are leading a change of any kind, it is on you for sure, as a leader, to figure out how you want to show up for others, and you will be much better equipped to do that when you actually take stock for yourself of where you are with relation to the change. I would argue that it will be much harder for you to lead the change successfully and get to the outcome that you want if you don't do at least some internal work and reflection and awareness around. How am I doing with this change? There's this funny thing sometimes that we think that leaders make all the decisions, and while some of that may be true, I can think of countless examples of clients I've had or people I've worked with in my own life where a leader has foisted a decision that has been made. Return to office seems like a really good one to start, where it's like they didn't get to make that decision right, but they've got to carry it out and see it to an objective right. And so, even just like starting with yourself, how do you sit with this change? What does this feel like for you? How does this impact you? What is your general relationship to change in terms of how you've done with these things in the past? I think that's a really important place to start. I think the second thing comes back to something that I said earlier, which is, while things are changing, finding stability and groundedness really helps people, and so I think another thing I always like to do is to say and start with okay, forget about what's changing for a second, what's actually staying the same right, and what are the things that are going to stay the same? And how can we use that? How can we use that in our messaging? How can we use that in our communications? How can we use that for ourselves so that we remind people, to make an opportunity to calm them a little bit, to maybe lower that threat level to maybe remind them and get them to a safer spot where they can be more open to what's coming ahead.
Al Dea:And I think the third thing I'll bring up is to start where there was momentum. There has been some research done by social scientists at the University of Pennsylvania where they found for social change movements that the tipping point for actually getting to, in implementing some kind of social change and social change movement is somewhere between 20 to 25% of the population, right, so definitely far less than 100, but still a decent amount. The best place to start in terms of trying to get to that 20 is always going to be with the people where kind of they are more open or perhaps excited about the change, and it's a lot easier. It's kind of like, would you rather, as a fish, swim against the current or with the current? Maybe that would be.
Al Dea:The third thing I would say is to like go and figure out like where is their momentum already? Because, man, it's a heck of a lot easier to start where there is momentum than where there is skepticism. At some point you will have to face the skeptics and that is a healthy and natural thing, but don't make it harder on yourself. Start where there's momentum.
Britt Andreatta:That's great. I was just meeting yesterday with about 20 executive directors of some pretty big nonprofit organizations and we were talking about all the change they're navigating right now, particularly with a lot of uncertainty around the economy. We talked a lot about how and workforces in general and I'm seeing this in every client I'm consulting with is just, the workforce is still really burned out from the pandemic and now you know we've got a lot more change coming and people's bandwidth. Your point to self-care is a really important one, because people have to take ownership of managing their Eating well and getting good sleep and exercising eating well and getting good sleep and exercising. We know that a mindfulness practice makes a huge difference and literally changes your brain and makes you more adaptive and resilient.
Britt Andreatta:But the third one I've been pointing to is play. We lost access to play in the pandemic and many of us have not gained it back, so we're really play deprived. When I'm talking to leaders I'm like yes, self-care and play, because play is missing. Animals only play when they're safe. We're signaling to our body that we're in a threat state when we don't have enough play in our lives. So I know, as a new parent, that's a little challenging. But the cool part is, when you have kids you can start to re-engage with play and let yourself play in a way. But once your kids grow up, I think we have to work harder at remembering to play.
Al Dea:No, that resonates with me.
Justin Reinert:I liked your note about self-awareness. I know we've talked about self-awareness before. This is actually our third podcast together, so I think it was our first together that we talked about self-awareness. In "Wired to Resist," Britt talks about the role that habenula plays in failure, oftentimes times times preventing people from moving forward out of fear of failure. How have you helped people mitigate that fear of failure when leading teams through change?
Al Dea:It's a great question. It's really hard. I'd say a couple of things. I think the first thing I always try to start with you know, around these, particularly with with leaders, is that the good news about a lot of these change things that people go through, and particularly in organizations, is that the solutions never happen overnight Right, particularly on these larger transformations. Like the end state doesn't happen overnight, particularly on these larger transformations, the end state doesn't happen overnight. If you take that to be true, whatever you come up with in the moment probably won't be the end-all, be-all, and when I can get people to understand that, naturally, then the next thing that comes next is like okay, well then it's going to take us a while to get all these things right and to get them to work. Part of it is taking a step through. If this is the end state and we know it's going to take 12 months, 18 months, realistically are we going to get this in one shot? No, we kind of get there and then it becomes well, how do we find ways to like actually work towards that? And so it's kind of this idea, though, of progress, not perfection, of we're not necessarily looking to get perfect right away, we're looking to take steps in the right direction. Some of that is just mindset and framing. Another thing I always love doing is getting people to remember that they have tried stuff that failed and worked through it, before reminding them hey, you've got something before where this has happened. What can we draw on from that that might help us in this moment? It's a reminder of self-awareness or reflection of past experiences, so that they can have the confidence.
Al Dea:For leaders, I always say you got three tools what you say, what you do and what you reward. As a leader, you know you need to change and that you alone will not come up with the answer. That means you're going to need your people to step up to the plate as well If you want your people to get to do this. Those three things what you say, what you do and what you reward are your tools to help you get better ideas or to fail in a way that enables you to, kind of like, move forward. And so that means a couple of things. One, you got to do it yourself in terms of like. If you're going to say it but you're not going to model it well, people aren't probably going to take you that seriously. Not only do you have to say it, but you actually have to do it right. So to align what you say with what you do. But the real unlock is when you actually start rewarding it right.
Al Dea:Not only did you say it, not only did you do it, but when other people try something and it doesn't work, they learn from it. You got to reward that. You call that out and say, hey, that thing didn't work, we learned from it. But that's exactly what we want, because that's going to help us get closer to where that end goal is.
Al Dea:We don't have to go down the rabbit hole of psychological safety and all that means and all those types of things. But certainly this kind of plays into that very much as well, because it's all going to be a lot easier for your people to raise their hand and admit they failed or to try something when they've seen you go first and they've seen you kind of model that and they see you kind of knowing that that's okay, because it lets them know they will be safe if they do the same thing. At the end of the day, these things don't happen overnight. You're going to have to experiment and fail, no matter what. If you believe that to be true, you got to think about how do we, kind of like, do this, and while we're emphasizing progress over perfection and reward as our means for being able to make that happen.
Britt Andreatta:Al, looking forward, what is something you're excited about in the coming months? It could be professional, personal, whatever, but I'm interested in what's in your horizon that's got you excited these days.
Al Dea:It's a great question. As I mentioned in the beginning, I run my own talent and leadership development consulting firm. I have a couple of clients where we're kicking off programs that I'm super excited about in terms of how they develop leaders. In most of these cases, these are first time managers or leaders who are kind of newer to the role, and so I always love being able to work with those people because we can start from a good foundation and build up, versus having developed somewhere and then have to rewire and start again. The curiosity and genuine interest and questions that you kind of get in those environments tends to be really awesome and very exciting and invigorating. So those are always things that are super exciting and top of mind for me.
Al Dea:We're recording this in the spring of 2025 and ATD is right around the corner. I always love those events to connect with old friends. I know you guys will be presenting, so that will be really exciting. The last thing I would say is just trying to embrace the changes in my own life and navigate through them the ones I'm dealing with now in terms of raising a four month old, but, you know, as he begins, a five month old and six and six-month-old and seven-month-old. I know that there will be more to come, and not to mention trying to do all of that while running a business. We didn't even get to talk about that, but that's a whole nother like trip, a wild trip to be going on, and probably is a whole other podcast to deal with. Maybe a few therapy sessions after that too. Never a dull moment, but always grateful to be able to do this work. Talking work. Talking to you guys on a Thursday morning about change counts as work. I'm really grateful for something like that.
Justin Reinert:Al, I want to thank you so much for joining us. We'll have info about you and where people can find you in the show notes, but I just want to ask you if people want to find you, learn more about your work, what is the best way for them to do that?
Al Dea:Thank you. It's been a pleasure chatting with yo u. For our listeners. If this resonated with you, feel free to find me on LinkedIn. My URL will probably be in the show notes. Just search for my name A-L-D-E-A and just send me a connection. Just let me know. You heard me on this podcast. I'd love to hear more from you and, yeah, that's the best place where you can find more about me, what I'm up to and some of the things I'm doing each and every day.
Britt Andreatta:Thank you so much for joining us Al. This feels like a full circle moment. So thank you for being part of our podcast and I will see you soon.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Brain Aware podcast. To learn more about Brain Aware Training and our brain based approach to change teams and all levels of employee development, visit BrainAwareTraining. com.
