Ep. 9 – Why Human Change Is the Hardest Part of the AI Transformation – with Ryan Simmons

AI can give you answers instantly. But what if your people lose the ability to question them?

Host James Weier speaks to Ryan Simmons, Vice President of Human Resources at Colorado College, about why AI transformation is less about technology and more about how work is designed.

As organizations rush to automate tasks and increase productivity, a deeper risk emerges: the erosion of critical thinking, judgment, and capability development. Ryan shares how AI is reshaping skill development, why removing “learning steps” weakens future expertise, and how HR leaders can redesign work so automation strengthens human decision-making, instead of replacing it.

From higher education to enterprise environments, this conversation reframes AI adoption as a human systems challenge with long-term implications for workforce capability.

You’ll learn:
1. Why faster output from AI can weaken critical thinking over time
2. How removing early-career tasks impacts long-term skill development
3. Why AI forces leaders to redesign roles, not just optimize tasks
4. Why AI should be treated as a tool instead of a source of truth
5. How to design workflows that strengthen judgment, not replace it

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Ryan Simmons is open to connecting about AI, work design, and HR leadership.
Reach out to him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-l-simmons/

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About the host James Weier:
James is Director, US at EGYM Wellpass and President of the Denver chapter of the Level Up HR Community. With 10 years of experience and a degree from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, James brings a collaborative, community-focused approach to his work. When he’s not elevating employee experience or strengthening HR leadership, James enjoys spending time with his wife and their two young boys in Colorado’s great outdoors.

Get in touch with James Weier on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesweier/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

You can do a technical change fast, right? You can you can install a software overnight. But the human adaptation to that change takes the amount of time it takes a human to change. And that's going to be different for different people depending on their background and their experience in some of these other things. But the fact that it's hard is something we should normalize.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Welcome to Level Up HR, the go-to knowledge platform for HR professionals. We bring you insights from top executives and thought leaders on making HR sustainable and future-ready. Through real-world experiences and best practices, we're building a community equipped to tackle tomorrow's challenges. Level Up HR is produced by E Jim Wolpass, the unlimited corporate health benefit. I am pleased to welcome Ryan Simmons, Vice President of or at Colorado College. Ryan, welcome to the podcast. Could you share with the audience a little bit more about your role and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yeah, I'm the vice president of human resources here at Colorado College. I've been here for about three and a half years. It's my first time in higher ed. Before that, I spent about 17 years in pediatric medicine at uh Children's Hospital of Colorado. Um, and so I've spent about 30 years in the HR leadership development and talent development uh domains. Um so that gives you a little bit of a history of where I've been.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Like that. Well, an interesting topic today, too. Um, and I think you have a perfect blend of experience for it as well, coming from more of the private organization, uh, more corporate world now into uh higher ed, uh, and chatting a little bit more about AI, kind of the impact it's having, not just um on the landscape as a whole, but human change, the journey along the way, um, and getting to see kind of the dynamic between the two worlds that uh you've existed in. Kind of would love to kick it off. Like, what are some of the pressures impacting HR uh in higher ed right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah, it's fascinating to make a transition from healthcare to higher ed because one of the things that I assumed is that there would actually be a lot of overlap because they're both institutions that depend on highly skilled professionals. They um actually came from an academic medical center. So there were people that had PhDs and professorships. And so I thought there would be a lot of overlap. Um, one of the things that I'm definitely seeing though is that there are very unique pressures for a higher ed right now that are almost an existential crisis. Like, who are we going to be and where are we going? Um, so just for those of your listeners who may not be aware, we have a demographic cliff. So there's almost like an echo after the baby boom where there are fewer people going into college just because there's fewer people of that age. Um, then when you add on top of that, there are concerns about the cost of higher education continuing to escalate, whether it's worth it in a world where skills are changing very frequently. Um, and then we have all the political pressure. So there are whole sectors that are just saying you can't trust higher ed. It's not providing the insight, wisdom, or value that you think it is. And so we're really having to prove why we exist and why we're a good investment for our people. Um and so those pressures are causing us to have financial constraints. Um, a ratcheting down of the resources that we have over time, states are also reducing funding, although we're a private institution. Um, it makes us have to think differently about what we do and how we try to accomplish that. And then, of course, costs are going up too. So the cost of our main thing that we offer is actually people. The ability for a professor to teach a student, uh, the ability for someone who is a um res life person to help create a nice experience for one of our students, um, is getting more and more expensive because of the cost of labor and then costs of legal support, other things are getting really high as well. So there's a lot of constraints on us as an or as a uh as a field right now.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah. And it's so interesting too when you look at, because it feels like kind of uh a pressure box of multiple, like it's like a perfect store in a certain way. When you think about kind of all of those pressures, is there any, is there any way you can think to prioritize one over the other? Or is there kind of an urgent, hey, here's where we're gonna build our foundation, at least around to start testing or trying to adopt or adapt with some of you know things in the past that may have worked that may not be working right now?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, I mean, the conversation that we have to have now is what are the non-negotiables? Um, what are the things that if we changed it, we'd no longer be the same organization or we no longer have the same mission? Um, and so for us, we're a 150-year-old um four-year residential college. Um, we believe that we provide very rigorous academic uh support for our students. Um, and so what of that is negotiable, if anything? Um, we focus on the liberal arts. We don't try to be a um, you know, specialized skill for specific um for a specific career. Um, and we are having a conversation right now where we actually think that is the most valuable thing we could offer. Um, and so a lot of organizations are saying, you know, do we need to pivot and start offering certificate programs and things like that, where that's not what we do. There are other people that probably do that better than we would if we started to. Um, and so we're really focusing on, well, what should we not negotiate on? So if we're going to continue to be a four-year liberal arts college that's residential, then we need to be very clear about the value that we're offering the students that come here and the parents that are maybe helping to support those students. Um, and so that's part of the conversation is how do we make that clear? But then we also have to be very wise about how we use our resources so that they fulfill that version of our mission uh as quickly and as clearly as possible. Um, because you know, some of the things we might have gotten away with before that would have been a little bit lax, we just can't afford to do anymore.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah. No, that's so interesting too, because I see it I I see it in everyday, like the the compound effect of just personal everyday skills and how valuable that's becoming. Uh, and it's super interesting to think about when you consider like a a private institution like a college. Do you compete and try to do everything that everyone else is already trying to do to stay relevant? Or do you double down on the things that you really can't teach a computer, at least yet? And I would argue, you know, some of the most important pieces right now are around like ethics, morals, values. Yeah, what goes into some of these models. If you don't teach that along the way to the new generation, like do those get lost? Like, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah. I mean, one of the one of the things that we've talked about is what is the value of a residential education? Because, you know, it's possible you can get on Zoom. We're learning right now, right? Um, there's a lot of ways that you can learn. So, so why double down on that? Why not move to another model? Um, and the answer is social learning. Um, when you sit in a class next to someone, you are learning potentially the content of that class, but you're also learning how to work, how to think, how to partner, how to handle, you know, different kinds of issues that might come up in terms of should I prioritize this evening event or should I spend time studying? Um, and so people are actually leaving residential colleges with a skill set that's missing from some of the folks that are choosing an alternate model. And it does depend on what you're trying to accomplish, right? If you want to just develop a certain skill set, I think online learning might be perfect. Um, but if you're trying to develop that holistic approach, um, it there's a unique opportunity provided by a four-year college. And you know, it makes me think about our role as HR professionals in terms of developing our own people. Um, how do you create those social connections in a world that might be virtual or or something else?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah. That's yeah, it's so interesting. These are like, unless you're living it, I you would have to be in a conversation to start thinking about some of it. And uh yeah, that's uh it's kind of fascinating. Um so on that same topic of kind of being in your seat as HR, how are you responding to all of this? Because there's so many competing priorities. I'm just curious kind of how you're approaching things.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, it's an interesting conversation because you know, there's a mindset shift. And doing a mindset shift might imply to people that they're doing something wrong. Like the old mindset was wrong, they were, you know, backwards, weren't thinking forwards, weren't as progressive as we needed them to be, whatever else. So to do that without making people wrong is going to definitely need to be a part of this conversation. And we can say conditions changed. Things are not the same as they were. And you may have been asked to do certain things in a certain way for the past 150 years, but now we need to do different things. Um, so helping people innovate, helping people value um prioritization, helping people value um what the mission is in a different way without making the old way they did it wrong is really important. We have people here with 40 years of experience. And so, you know, they were here in the the 90s and the 80s, even um, making decisions that we're all benefiting from today, and sometimes challenged with today. Um, so so making some of those mindset shifts is something we need to help people to understand as we go.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

So on that same vein with so you've uh you've said mission several times. Does that does that change kind of the student that comes or like the makeup? Like does that look any different?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah, that's something we can't always control, right? It's it's it's gonna depend on who chooses to apply, it's gonna change depend on who can afford to come, it's gonna depend on and depend on a lot of different variables. We work really hard to craft a class that uh enhances that um social learning that we talked about. So if you're sitting next to people that are exactly like you, you probably aren't gonna have some of those same advantages as if you sit next to somebody from a different background from from your background. And especially a lot of the people that graduate from Colorado College go on to be leaders in in not-for-profits and for-profit organizations and some of these other social change opportunities. If you're only exposed to people with a certain point of view, you're gonna have blind spots. Um, and so we believe that doesn't position them for leadership. Um, and so we try really hard to craft a class that's gonna contribute to that.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

That's so interesting. No, thank you for all of that. I want to pivot just a little bit um and speak a little bit more on the human reality. So a slightly different topic, um, but sort of similar. But can you tell me a little bit more um kind of what you think some of these implications are uh for like human capital strategies as you're adapting, as you're looking at a different landscape, different ways of structuring uh like a private institution, for example, like you're doing right now. Um, how do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, I mean, so there's a couple of different things that I can answer that. Let me start with one, which is just how do we think about this work? Um, so already people are like, okay, we need to learn to do more with less. And I'm like, well, do more with less may not even be the right frame. Um, it may need to be do different with different. Um, so you know, some of the work that we've been doing maybe isn't as necessary or it needs to be deprioritized. So doing more of it would actually be another form of waste. Um, and so we may need to do less. And then we also need to think about well, okay, what are those tools that are going to help us? We've, you know, we talk a little bit about uh artificial intelligence, but you know, all the automated automation opportunities that are out there or systems improvement, process improvement, um, those could be tools that could could help folks. Um and they haven't been things that have been prioritized in our culture because of the nature of the work that we do. It's been a stable uh situation. Um, so now it needs to be prioritized, and that's gonna change things.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah. So what do you think goes into that? Like that next step. You've traditionally had a lot of uh, I want to say the like the same, but there's been a really good process that's been in place. It's it's worked. Like how do you take it to the next level? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah. I mean, this is where you get into the classic change management conversation, right? So, how do you create a burning platform? How do you create a burning need to change? Um, I think about the idea of punctuated equilibrium, where if things are changing dramatically enough, that's actually an opportunity to change people's mindsets because they see that the old way is actually no longer functional for the context that they're in. So, how do we tell that story in a way that doesn't scare people? It gives them confidence in where we are. So we've been talking a lot about building on our strengths. Um, we have 150 years of history for a reason. We we've actually done really good work. And there are a lot of alumni out there who would uh sing the praises of the work that we've done. And we have to change because the world continues to change, and that's just a healthy thing to do. Um, so setting that up, I think, is going to be a real part of this is how do we communicate the need to change without generating panic and the resistance that comes along with that?

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah. So you've got the people and then you have the system. Can we talk a little bit more about the system and what that looks like?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm thinking a little bit about individual skills development. So, what do you need to learn in this moment to be able to adapt to some of the things we're going to need to do? In the long run, I do think we will probably have fewer people at Colorado College to produce the learning that we're trying to produce for our students. So, how would we get there? Um, process improvement, automation, clarifying of our core rules, et cetera, all of that is one of the ways you would get there. But those are skills. You have to think differently about what you do and how you do it. Um, we had something on my team where, you know, there was a person who would print something out, have somebody sign it, then scan it, then we would have to print it out again. We would actually literally walk it upstairs to another department, then they would scan it, and then they would put it in their system. And it had been done that way for so long. And nobody even thought, you know, it takes me two minutes to walk upstairs and drop off this paper. Who cares? Right. But as soon as soon as I saw it, I'm like, couldn't you just save it to one place and then all the work could be done from that one place? And they're like, yeah, we could do that. You know, did it save, I don't know, 10 minutes a week? Probably. But it also sent the message of think about your work. Just because you've done it this way doesn't mean you have to. And it doesn't mean it was not smart or, you know, not perfect, but but just like you you have permission to think about that. I think sometimes when you're in a stable system, that permission doesn't feel like it's there because because it's been rewarded to follow the models that have worked in the past.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah. It's so interesting because you're seeing it everywhere right now, right? We're we're talking obviously about Colorado College, but if you look at any any industry, any sector, the school system as we know it, even from a primary level, it's existed the same way now for over a hundred years. The world has wildly changed. What does that even look like from a I I think about this all the time as a parent. Mike.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

I had a great conversation with a professor about this just yesterday. Um, so you know, we're we're talking about artificial intelligence, and our faculty are very concerned about artificial intelligence for a variety of reasons. Um, and you know, it could sound like resistance, but there is there is wisdom to it because they think about this a lot more than I do in terms of what the impact is going to be on the the next generation and so forth. So, you know, they are obviously nerve nervous about the fact that they produce knowledge. And if a computer can scrape the work that they've done and give to somebody for free, then that might undermine where they are. And I think there's a legitimate concern there. Um, but the other thing that they pointed out is AI is great at getting results, but it's not actually great at making the process um the process benefits get lost. So give I'll give you an example an example because I thought this was the great way to tell it. If your goal is to lift weights, it makes tons of sense to bring a forklift to the gym. You just have that forklift lift weights all day long. It will be fun. You're gonna get so much weight lifted, it's gonna be awesome. But if your goal is to get strong, that tool actually undermines what you want. And so this is the conversation they're having with their students right now. It's like, I don't care if you give me a good paper or not. The good paper is like lifting weights. Who cares? I need you to learn how to write a good paper. And so that idea is really interesting in terms of well, what is it that we're going to do to help our people learn the skills that they need so that they can actually leverage the technology in a helpful way. If you never learn to be a good writer, you're never gonna learn to second guess the writing that comes from AI, and then you're gonna not be able to add the value that you might want to add in your career.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

That's about as perfect of a complex but so simple example, if that makes sense. Um super interesting how you frame that. And I love it because you can see it, you can touch it, like you it's super easy to understand. Um follow-up on that. So, how does that play into just change overall with the organization again and the people? Um do you have any thoughts around that at all?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Um with artificial intelligence in general, or what are you thinking?

SPEAKER_02 17:38

I'm thinking artificial intelligence, the people, and then going back to the whole process point too, because I almost feel like not only does it t touch back on the mindset shift, but rebuilding the system. And as you're going about it, what do you like, what do you do? I guess is my question.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, there's there's a couple of things that come to my mind when I think about that. So one is um what is it that we're automating? And it it's interesting. I I heard an interesting report about this. They're they're starting to think about what are the compensation consequences of artificial intelligence as an automating device. And what was really interesting about this report that I read was it depends on what skills are being automated. So if you're in a job where your lower level skills are being automated, then probably over time your compensation might increase because your productivity is increasing. You're going to be using higher level skills, and therefore you're going to have an opportunity to order, you know, to request more for your compensation. But if it's the higher level skills that are getting automated, then it's the opposite case. It'll be more people competing for the same jobs, and therefore it will drive the price of that job down. Um, the the interesting thing about that is the employee and sometimes even the employer really doesn't have a choice in which of those two things are happening, because it depends on what the tool can do. If the tool can automate the higher-level skills, that's what we're going to automate. Um, and then you get into a question of, well, what happens in terms of job satisfaction, uh, identity? Who am I in a world where you're asking me to do the tasks that I never really enjoyed in the first place? And now that's all that's left of my job. Um, and vice versa, if you've got somebody who's being asked to perform higher level skills, how do we get them there? If we if we say go to the gym and lift it with a forklift, they're never gonna get good enough at doing that to be able to have those high-level skills. And so we'll be missing rungs from our ladder. Um, so those are some of the things that I think we need to think about that are gonna have long-term consequences.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

There's so much to think about. Like, and I think you bring such a unique view, especially being in higher ed, and it's just such a different world than what it looks like now versus what it looks like in the future. Obviously, we have no idea, but we're gonna have to figure it out. Is there anything that comes to mind just in your experience so far working on the project that you are with Colorado College that you think the rest of the world can take from it? Doesn't matter if it's private industry, public?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Um I I think this is classic change management. You know, every time, every time there's a new change, people kind of feel like it's the first time we've had to go through some of these things. Um, you know, and if you've been around long enough, you remember things like the World Wide Web coming online for the first time or iPhones coming online for the first time. I remember when iPhones first came out and people were like, should you be allowed to bring them to work? Um, right? Um, you remember the transitions that we went through during the pandemic. So we should be kind to ourselves. Um, we know this is you can change, you can do a technical change fast, right? You can you can install software overnight. But the human adaptation to that change takes the amount of time it takes a human to change. And that's going to be different for different people depending on their background and their experience and some of these other things. But the fact that it's hard is something we should normalize. I think sometimes we're ready to move on to the next thing and just go, oh, well, we've installed the software, just start using it. Um, but again, when we start talking about things like I just talked about with, well, my identity has just shifted. Now you're asking me to do a different kind of work. I'm not sure this is what I signed up for in my life. Now you're having some pretty big emotional work that that person's gonna be doing. And we've done it before. Like it's a skill set that we have. Um, and we just need to be kind to ourselves and remember it takes time, it's human, that's how it's gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah. I love that. And I love the way you just uh put that as well. So one follow up question to that obviously there's a lot of layers to it. Who do you think the people in the room would need to be in that situation? Like if you're picking a a star bench, thinking about change management. Knowing how big of a task is at hand.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Well, when you ask the question, the first thing that comes to my mind is IT. You know, this is the most human technological cyborg combination situation we've ever been in, right? Because computers are starting to act like people. And in order to interact with them, you kind of have to have some human skills. But at the same time, we're asking humans to adapt their behavior to a computer. And so I think we would be remiss to say, you guys go off and figure out the technology impact, we'll go off and figure out the human impact, and we'll meet in the middle Sunday and see what happens. So starting to have conversations earlier around, well, okay, even which AI tools do we pick and why? Right. Some of those things would have seemed like a clearly IT decision, but they have human impact consequences now. And then, you know, I also think about our IT teams and to the skills that they have. If you've been born and raised as a coder, and now you see that, you know, anthropic can code for you in half the time or thousandth of the time, then all of a sudden it's back to that identity shift issue that we just talked about is who am I if I'm not a coder? Now we need their skills more than ever, but we need to show them how to apply them in a different way. And there are human impacts to that, not just straight up skills or technology.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

It's it's wild to think about because there it feels like on such opposite ends of the spectrum when you consider generally the personalities that sit in each role. Um, any advice for because I hear people talk about this all the time, but any advice for someone in IT versus somebody in HR at the end of the day?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Um, where I feel like it's working well for us right now is IT people are humans too. Um so it's not like they have to imagine the the HR consequences or the human impacts of some of these things. We can just say, hey, you need to learn ChatGPT or whatever tool you're gonna be using. How are you learning it? What is that teaching you? And then how can you then think about how that might help others? So some of the projects that I'm trying to do for my team, I'm partnering with an IT person, and we're actually talking about, well, well, they use it. Why wouldn't they use it? What would that mean? Um, right. And and so uh I think that real work gives them an opportunity to experience it firsthand.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

I love that. Anything else I should ask before our rapid fire questions?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Um, you know, I was thinking a little bit about a project that I've done with my team that I think I'd like to share around um some of the changes that we're doing in the mental models and some of the shifts. So we had uh we had a turnover with a group of our coordinators, and what we decided to do is actually shift the way we filled them and hire with a new way of thinking. Um, and so we literally moved all their desks so they would face each other so that they could talk to each other. When we hired the first couple, then they hired the other folks for the team. We did some cross-training. And the idea was to be able to say, okay, you should be able to help each other. And then where AI came into that is we had a conversation about we have a shared drive with procedures and policies, but of course, no new people don't know where to look to get the information, right? And so what we did is we created an AI agent to be able to ask questions of that data and say, what's our policy around this? What's our process for this? And what they're doing now is they're actually supporting each other and using that as a research tool to be able to say, okay, I want to figure out the answer to this, but they don't trust it. And I don't want them to trust it because things hallucinate, documents can be old, right? The data set's never perfect. Um, so now what they do is they actually collaborate as humans to say, I got this answer. Does it make sense to you? And so we're giving them the opportunity to, I mentioned those higher-level skills, right? Looking around in a folder for a piece of information, it's not value added. Um, but then saying, okay, I've got this information, does it make sense and will help this employee? That's value added. So I get to listen to them, they're just outside my office. And I love the problem solving that they're doing. And you can just see it's higher order problem solving than what it would have been two or three years ago when we had structured it a different way. So the whole system around how we designed it helps create the outcome of the mutual support. And then in that context, AI is just a tool. Um, and it's certainly not the tool that's the center of the work. It's just a an addition that makes the work go more effectively.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

I'm pausing because it's it's genius on its face, too. Because it's inviting people to the table, but at the same time provoking like critical thought as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Because you might they have higher level skills than they would have if we had hired them two or three years ago. Because that basic level stuff is getting helped with. Um, and I think that helps them in the long term in their careers too, because they are going to be able to do work that's more meaningful for our employees if they stay here. If they go somewhere else, they're gonna have a sense of responsibility and accountability that might not have been there the way the job had previously been designed.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

What I love most about that too is it's you're provoking people to challenge. And what I see so often, especially right now, is a prompt where somebody just gets an answer and that's the gospel truth, which I think is the most dangerous possible place you can get.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

I always I always think about that with Excel. If if I wrote a formula in Excel and it generated an answer that made no sense, I'd be like, huh, I made a mistake with my Excel formula, right? But in this world, because it talks like a human, I think we sometimes just go, oh well, it's smarter than I am. I'll just trust it. Um, and that's just using the tool the wrong way.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Are you seeing people like with that specific example? Are they doing it day one because you're encouraging them? Hey, and you're telling them out of the gate, this it can not be right. It doesn't mean just because it's pumping out an answer that that is actually true or accurate.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Or it's interesting, right? I I said that. We did a little training, we said everybody this is the case. But I don't, I don't think as much as I want to believe my perspective is the thing that everybody's paying attention to, I don't think that's it. I think it's practice. They used it, they saw that it gave an answer that didn't make a lot of sense. They talked to their peer about it, they thought, saw that it wasn't right, and then they went, hmm, I am now 10% less likely to believe this thing the next time it answers me. Um, and so they're learning the skill of being critical because they're seeing they have to in order to get the work done. Um, so I don't think it's you know a training that somebody did, you know, yeah six months ago that's causing them to think differently. I think it's more their experience trying to get the work done.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

So interesting because I feel like so much of it goes right back to personality and character. Because if you generally, I mean, you take it in a completely different context, different setting. You go back to the person at the end of the day. If it's somebody who's generally, hey, I just want a quick answer and then I want to move on. It's like, how do you condition a different behavior, even if you have like this perfect time?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I so I mean, we have the benefit of having a turnover. Um, so that gave us a chance to do a little bit of a reset. So when you start thinking about what are the variables that go into an example like this, I don't know if it was good hiring. I don't know if it was good orienting, I don't know if it's good leadership, I don't know if it's good follow-up. I mean, there's there's a lot of variables that have to go together so that this team feels like they're supported in taking challenges on and doing it the way they're doing. Um, I don't know which one of those, you know, we may just we may be lucky in all four. Um, but but they all go together to create that experience.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Yeah. Well, one thing I know from from our brief interactions and the few times that we've spoken is you have a lot of strategy into what you do, and the the importance you place behind not just people, but the behavior you're trying to drive. I think it it doesn't surprise me that you came up with that idea. And I love that you're humble and don't take credit for it. But well, and I'll take even a little less credit.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

There are a whole lot of people involved.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

It was just like I feel like you know, when you are you have the variables you're looking to solve for when it comes to the people, the processes, and the systems, like you can do some pretty incredible things. And you keep going back to like the core and the foundation, and you get the same people around, not with the same mindset, but the same beliefs. And here's our non-negotiables, this is what we're trying to drive, this is the outcomes we're looking for. It's not gonna be perfect along the way, it's probably gonna be pretty damn hard on top of it. Let's see what we can do. You get a group of people like that in a room, you can do some pretty wild things.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

In HR, we are lucky, as much as sometimes it doesn't feel this way. We genuinely exist to help people have a better experience at work. And people spend so much time at work. And so if I can get my team to remember that when they're doing their work and maybe they're frustrated with somebody who didn't like the answer they just gave, or some of those things, they do good work because it makes a difference for other people.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

That's so cool. And I think it's a perfect wrap-up too before uh we transition into rapid fire, but mission driven, and I think it's becoming more and more prevalent like in the last year or two. At least this is just my uh sheer opinion on it. You go back to the mission driven where people have a vested interest in what they're doing, and they feel like it's doing something that's hopefully doing good for the world, it's just one thing you don't have to sell people into that I don't think you ever sell people into at the end of the day. It's either there or it's not. And it gives me a lot of faith in humanity seeing so many people going back to this is what I believe in, this is what I care for, this is what I want to do. And yeah, because you're spending a lot of time at work, I would hope that's the case. So thank you so much for all that. A lot, uh, a lot of process uh on my end, because a lot of things that I hadn't thought about before. And I think there's a lot we can look to now with higher ed too, because it's not just tech, it's not just finance. Like we're having to think about how do you restructure how you teach people too at the end of the day. More importantly, how do you get them to think as well? So I love that. Uh a couple personal questions, but you uh you're a sharp guy. What do you do to keep your body and mind in an optimal state?

SPEAKER_00 32:56

So, you know, full transparency. We we I had the questions ahead of time. So I had a little bit of a chance to think about this. And I think this is really important to also normalize is that waxes and wanes. It ebbs and flows, right? There are days when I'm able to go out and get a good hike in and do all the exercise that I want to do and eat healthy and drink all the water. And there's other times when I'm like, this week is not gonna be that week. And so I think the the meta skill is actually trying to be kind to myself. So if I choose to spend time with my family and not do one of those healthcare activities that, you know, the book would say I should probably do, knowing that that's a choice that I made is something that I want to give myself credit for and not uh therefore beat myself up about. Um and I think then that actually makes it easier the next time I can go for a hike or do the exercise to say, okay, I've I've met the other components of my life that I care about right now. And so I can do this without feeling um feeling the stress that comes from not having met my other needs.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Love that. So easy to give others grace, but yourself, not not so much. Uh, I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. So, personal why, what motivates you? Why why are you getting up each morning?

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah, I mean, my family. Uh, so you know, I've I've got a wife and a daughter, and their their livelihood and health and wealth and just being healthy uh happy people on this earth is the is the first order of of what I'm trying to get done. Then when I get to work, helping people have a good experience, um, if they're gonna be working here, if they're gonna be spending time with each other to the extent that I can contribute to creating an environment where they can be at their best. Um, that feels great.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Like that. A book, one that has completely, um, I shouldn't say completely, fundamentally kind of shaped how you view your life for the world.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Um, so I was thinking about this, and I actually am thinking about a um 360 tool that we used um called the Leadership Circle. Um, and it has a model of leadership in it that talks about um how the same behavior can actually have different outcomes depending on your intent. Um, so the idea is that if you're trying to do things to serve others, you're going to get more positive results. Whereas if you're doing things in order to take care of yourself, you're probably gonna get a little bit less positive results. Um, and when I find myself getting stuck, I go back to that model and think a little bit about what's going on here that maybe I'm I'm centering myself instead of centering the service that I'm trying to provide. Um, and then that usually helps me lead more effectively or just be more of who I want to be in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

That's so cool. I had not heard of that one. Um, so I'm gonna have to check that out. So you're giving yourself a little bit of grace at the end of the day, which I think is uh a nugget in itself. But if you go back to your teenage self, what's one piece of advice you'd give them?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah, I mean, it would actually be that again. Um, I I think you enjoy your life more if you're present for what's happening right now and not wishing it was something else. Um, and so that may be internal or that may be external. So, you know, when I look back on some of the things that were the most challenging earlier in my life, the things I kind of miss now, right? That really janky apartment that I had in college that is literally probably about a tape wrapped around it right now because of some kind of super fun site. Like I kind of miss that, that place. Um, so so being able to think about whatever is happening right now, what is the best way for you to be with it and then get the value out of it and experience it without wishing it was something else?

SPEAKER_02 36:35

I think that's a perfect way to end it. Ryan, thank you so much. Uh, and really appreciate the time today.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Thanks a lot. I appreciate the interview.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

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