Digital Church Strategy That Works: Start With Your Data

How can churches use data to grow, disciple, and engage their communities more effectively? In this episode of Church3.0, presented by Apollos, Tyler Vance sits down with data strategist Amber Smart, founder of Smart Metrics, to explore how churches can transform their ministries using data-driven insights.

From helping churches move beyond outdated Excel sheets to implementing scalable church data strategies, Amber shares over a decade of experience in church data systems, digital engagement, discipleship analytics, and how post-COVID trends are shifting what healthy church metrics look like.

Whether you're a senior pastor, executive pastor, church data analyst, or digital leader, this episode will help you:

✅ Understand where churches get data right (and wrong)
✅ Learn how to start a data program
✅ Discover what churches should stop measuring
✅ See how data and digital engagement are deeply connected
✅ Prepare your church for future giving trends and generational shifts

🔔 Subscribe for more church leadership insights, digital ministry strategies, and tech-driven faith conversations.

🔗 Learn more about Apollos – https://apollos.com/church-growth
🔗 Connect with Amber Smart - https://www.linkedin.com/in/amber-smart-%F0%9F%93%88-8251305b/

📍For churches in the U.S. and globally seeking better ways to serve their community through data-informed ministry, this episode is your practical starting point.

Transcript

00:01

 Welcome to Church 3.0, presented by Apollos, a podcast where we explore the nuances of modern Christian culture and the challenges of cultivating community while maintaining impact and relevance in the church. Join Tyler Vance, COO of Apollos, as he talks to church leaders from around the world to gain a deeper understanding of the Christian faith in a modern context. Push boundaries, change lives, create a more hopeful future.

00:31

 Hey, welcome today to another episode of Apollos. Today, I have an incredible person sitting beside me, Amber Smart. She's the owner and founder of Smart Metrics. She works with churches all over the country to help them with data and to solve their data problems. Amber, great to have you today. Thank you. First off, would you tell us a little bit about Smart Metrics? I'm sure I didn't do...

01:00

 The greatest job explaining. No, it's good. It's good. Yes. So I started Smart Metrics in 2013. So we've been in business a little over going almost 11 years. Yeah. So I'm pretty proud of that. Yes. I started it. Actually, my history was I was at Life.Church and I was a part of the YouVersion Bible app launch. Yeah. And it's a season I am grateful for, but don't ever want to do again.

01:30

 It was great, but it was crazy. And then in 2013, I adopted a my youngest has some special needs. And so as you can imagine, that was a very demanding role that I was in. So it's 2013. Big data was the word everyone was throwing around. No one knew what it meant. Yeah.

01:52

 I don't know if we still even really know what it means, but we like to throw it around. And they said, if we created a role for you dealing with data, because as an organization, we had a lot, but we weren't doing anything with it, would you stay? And we'll give you some flexibility. I thought, oh, sure, great. Well...

02:08

 It started small, but then quickly grew because there was a lot. So I ended up implementing analytics for the organization and then did that from 2013 to 2018. So I did smart metrics on the side. We had a lot of churches that would reach out and say, can you help us with this?

02:30

 And Life.Church was great and said, sure, if you want to do that on your own time, that's great. So I did a little bit of that on the side. So I have a lot of people ask, how do how do you start your business or how do you go about doing that? And I always tell people, don't be afraid to burn the midnight oil, like like work your day job and then try to do what you can in the evenings and weekends as you can. I mean, I had small kids, so it was a little difficult. Yeah.

02:53

 And then 2018 just jumped full-time consulting. And that's what I've been doing ever since. We serve churches. We serve pharmaceutical companies. We serve car manufacturers. We serve banks, nonprofits, all kinds of different genres. Farmers. Hold on. Farmers? Dairy farmers. Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that one. Yeah. We count teats. Okay.

03:20

 No, I'm serious. We do. And you can cut that out if you need to. Data is everywhere. It is. It's data's data. Yeah. Can you give me maybe a behind-the-scenes fun data story? You can leave names out. Like a fun data story? You won't believe how crazy this thing was.

03:45

 Oh, most of the time it's going to be related to churches because, as I mentioned, pharmaceutical, banking.

03:54

 manufacturing, they have industry standards. So pretty much whenever I'm integrating, working with them, they've got it planned out, they have a point person, it is central part of their strategy. They have external rules and regulations they have to follow. So it's like very pretty, I mean, not always 100% clean, but it's way better than manufacturing.

04:17

 So churches, it's like the wild, wild west. So I would say the craziest thing is a 40-year-old Excel spreadsheet. Yeah. Yeah.

04:30

 I would say that's probably the craziest thing. Outside of that, it is truly the wild, wild west. There are no industry standards. I mean, there are standards around giving, usually. I mean, almost always. And then most of the time, not always, there's pretty good standards around child check-ins. Just for safety and all that. But outside of that, you do not know what you're getting into.

04:57

 You don't know what you're getting into smart metrics when you engage with the church because it could be anything. Yeah. So as a result, we actually implemented where we will always begin with a discovery because we like even if they tell us what they think the landscape is and what it's going to be like, it's that's never a reality. Yeah. So there's usually a gap of expertise there.

05:20

 So it's they come to us and then wanting to enhance or start a data program, but there's no one really on staff who understands it. And so they're just, it's very challenging. So you're trying to implement and integrate, but also teach, but be aware of this huge knowledge gap and also knowing there's no industry standards. So the discovery allows us, we do a data literacy assessment.

05:45

 So it lets us understand, like, how well does your team understand and how to use data. So then I know if I'm walking into, we're going to start very, very basic. Or, you know, we can skip these first couple steps and get right into it. So I've learned the hard way to always start with a discovery. Yeah.

06:06

 And it's low investment that way too, right? Sure. I'm just thinking from what I know, A, there's probably no one that's better equipped to do that discovery than you. Because when I think of church data, you're kind of the OG church.

06:27

 of that and you're going to get really uncomfortable with me. So I know that, but, um, much of what you were doing early on was very forward leaning. Um, and so, yeah, I, I do think, uh, and for context, uh, we got to work together, a life church and, um, it,

06:51

 The relationships and the influence that you built as a part of that were significant and allowed that to be very successful and really highly adopted. And I think to your point, the roles that churches need to adopt have to be in the position of influence and relational equity in order for data to be the seat of the table that they desire. There's no like magic button they can push.

07:18

 Right. And I'll say, I'll credit my ability to have that type of influence was because at the very top level, there was influence. Yeah. So I, you know, I mean, you've got to have senior leadership has to be invested and bought in. Yeah.

07:36

 Desiring an outcome. Who is the most, of a church staff, that's an interesting point. Who's the most common person that contacts you and says, hey, Amber, we desperately need help? Usually the executive pastor. Okay. If they have an executive pastor. I've never worked with the senior pastor. Really? Yeah. Okay.

07:58

 Never. It's always an executive pastor or a digital leader of some sort. Gotcha. Person that's wearing a lot of hats. Yeah, yeah. And so that's kind of just the right person or not. That's kind of a hit or miss. To take like a zoom out of church data.

08:24

 Where are we getting it right and where are we getting it wrong? So because there are no industry standards, which I would love nothing more than to begin that movement and see that start to take shape. But where...

08:45

 where we're getting it, where we're not, I feel like we're not asking the right questions. Okay, so I feel like the questions I'm getting are, the main one would be, is the post COVID or the COVID changes permanent?

09:03

 And I feel like, okay, we're getting far enough removed from COVID. Yeah. That like, I don't know that we should still be asking that question. Like it's a new normal now. I feel like, no? Yeah, no. So it's kind of, but there's a lot of them that are asking that. So then the next question they're asking is how do I get people back into the building? Okay.

09:26

 How do I increase giving? Sure. How do I better understand the discipleship? And then how do I create more leaders and invest in our leaders? Gotcha. Those are the main questions.

09:39

 If it was up to me, I would love if they would start asking things like, what do we... I think the number one question they should be asking is, what do we need to stop doing? Because... And the data would tell them that. But, like, very few of them, I feel like, are open enough to say, what are we doing that we need to stop doing? And then second would be, what is the... What is our community's perception of us? Ooh.

10:09

 And how are we helping the community? Like, I really wish. Yeah. And all of this you can find, get answers to with the use of surveys or data processes. But there's this, like I say, there's this huge knowledge gap that exists of like, I think a lot of church leaders desire this stuff. But there's no system, established system to rely on to find it. Sure.

10:36

 I mean, you bring up a great point. I would love to hear your thoughts on what you would standardize. But just out of curiosity, what is the one thing churches should stop doing? Since you said that's the number one thing, I want your answer. What should they stop doing? They should stop prioritizing physical attendance. I mean, that's... Or that being their...

11:04

 like the highest form of engagement. I mean, I think it's one form of engagement and I think it holds a lot of weight, but I don't think that that should be the end game. Well, I think we're entering a space where it's lead versus lack.

11:27

 Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it it used to be the indicator of success or the end game of success. And now it's more the indicator of we've done everything else well. Mm hmm.

11:43

 And I think you from a data perspective can understand and see that shift. It's really hard from a pastoral perspective to be able to see they're showing up on the weekend because we did everything else really well. Not they're showing up on the weekend and that's fueling everything else. It's like the funnel got flipped. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

12:07

 And I mean, at Apollo's, we say we're trying to do church seven days, not just Sundays. Our data shows engagement seven days a week does lead to higher in-person attendance. Oh, sure. I'm sure. Right? Right. Yeah. From a data perspective, you go, absolutely, that does. But we still are encountering churches, and this might be you, where we're trying to make in-person attendance on Sunday fuel everything else during the week. Right. Yeah.

12:36

 Right. No, I agree. I think the shift to and to be more future forward, like more strategic and forward thinking, I feel like a lot of them are either trying to recreate pre-COVID. Sure. And so I don't, I'm trying to think, I might only have a few churches that are actually back at pre-COVID physical attendance, majority or not.

13:05

 Um, giving wise, a lot of them are, a lot of them didn't even giving wasn't, wasn't impacted. Yeah. Um, but I, I wish a lot of them were using data to be able to create more individualized, um, discipleship paths, like just more individualized attention, care, um,

13:30

 And not be so us centered, but more like outward focused, because I think attendance will kind of like take care of itself. Like to your point, it's like that will naturally grow and flourish if we're doing all of the things leading up to that and taking care and serving our people well. Yeah.

13:53

 So you're a small business owner. So let me put it in this perspective, because this is my great thought on it that, I mean, I just feel like I say all the time. But as a church, we're still making all the business decisions based on when someone shows up to our doors for the first time.

14:14

 Right. That actually sets off the string of business decisions. If you look at our budgets, if you look at our programming, if you look at the things that we're promoting, everything begins at the point where you walk in our doors. Yeah.

14:31

 And there's no other business in the world today operating like that. No, you walking in our doors is one point of engagement. It's not. And it's so far down the line. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So I say that and it feels kind of icky to say it in business terms. But the reality of it is like we embrace digital not because it reaches someone across the world, which I think is a great thing. I mean, we were both a part.

15:01

 of especially working alongside alan with church online but it is the thing about how do we reach our neighbors and digital is actually the way to do that well it's how the rest of the world works what i mean that's the part like that is so um frustrating is it's like this is not this is not

15:26

 Yeah. Like, I will check out Target's app before I go in. Yes. And there's times I go there physically and there's times I don't. And I, like, but...

15:41

 Those are just different forms of engagement, whether I purchase via the app or I actually physically walk into the store because maybe I want to browse. Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. And I wish the church could look at interactions and serving their people in that way. Yeah. Of, like, it's all integrated. Like, it's not... We've got to get past the physical building being the center or the peak of the triangle or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, yeah. So...

16:11

 And data can help you do that. Technology. But there is a there is a knowledge gap. Sure. It can feel very overwhelming. I mean, I know when I always tell people, like when they're looking at a dashboard or you begin to ask questions about like if we were to integrate and start pulling your data together and create a dashboard and we deliver it, there's this sense of.

16:37

 just unease when they begin using it and I it's kind of equated to like when you get into a rental car for the first time and you're like you know how to drive a car but like you just feel kind of awkward you know and then it's like you got to put gas in it and you feel this little bit of panic like you know how to put gas in a car but it's like like where's the how do I you know it's so good it's that kind of that weird feeling and so that's

17:02

 And I try to walk them through, hey, this is or this is a new process. This is a new way of thinking. This is a new way of doing it. We are learning, you know, and integrating data is you don't just implement a data program and it's one and done. It is constantly evolving. Sure.

17:19

 So just teaching them like, here, we're going to learn and we're going to learn together. And so I could show you, I've worked with probably a hundred churches at this point, and I could show you a hundred different flavors. I mean, they all look different. Some of them, one might put a focus on very community driven metrics. Another, it's all just about attendance. Another one, they're real heavy on the discipleship journey. Another one, it's

17:45

 all about baptism, you know, I mean, it's, it's, they all kind of have their different flavors. So if you were to ask like, what, how would you standardize that? Well, that would be my question. What would you standardize out of that? And that's, that's what is keeping me up at night, to be honest, is like, okay, how can I create a tool that serves, replicates what's in my head of understanding the nuances of church data, the challenges. And it's different than a business because like,

18:15

 I can remain—I can attend a church for 10 years and be completely anonymous, right? If I never submit my information for anything, I come in, I sit in the back row, and then I leave. And I could do that for 10 years, right? We would not know you existed unless we had some type of physical interaction or you entered our database. So—

18:35

 Because there's that caveat, a lot of times when we're looking at data, we have to keep in mind that it is not as straightforward as producing widgets or anything that you see in a training on how to use data in business. Yeah. Giving data, you want to look at that as a household, right? You're not going to look at that as a person. So there's just all these different nuances. Yeah.

18:55

 Obviously there's physical attendance, but that's just one. So in my mind, I'm like, there's the physical attendance, there's the digital engagement. There's also the financial aspect, like the way you're tracking your financial information. Does that mirror your ministries? Like a lot of them, it's just like a few accounts and it's like, yeah.

19:14

 No, like your financial structure and your account structure that should mirror your ministry, right? Because it will give you the insights into that. So can I, but at the same time, because there's this knowledge gap, how can I create something that is very simple to use? Sure.

19:32

 Now, it may be limited and doesn't allow you to have, you know, you can't track your backpack drive or something like that. I don't know. But that's the piece I'm trying to figure out. But a tool will only be so good as to how people know how to use it or how people know how to use data. A lot of church leaders do not know how to use data. A lot of church leaders think they know how to use data. And that could be fair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

20:02

 And they're not wrong, but maybe they're just not as educated as they think they are. It's possibly, yeah. Well, and I think it's part of it is because of the nuance of church data.

20:19

 There's just this there's it's it's not like if we were manufacturing something, we'd be having a completely different conversation. Amber, how many times, though, do you run into a church that wants to base all of their data around their physical experiences? Oh, majority of them. Right. 100% of them.

20:37

 But how many churches actually, I mean, even if it's Facebook or Instagram or something free, maybe they don't have a church app, maybe they don't have a website that's really like doing anything for them, right? They still have indicators or data points within those social engagements that they don't take into account for how they treat data for their organization, right?

21:04

 Right. Right. There is, like I say, there's just this massive gap that exists. I think a lot of them, they can wrap their minds around the physical aspect, but even then, do they have good systems and processes in place to even do that effectively? Majority of the time, the answer to that is no. It is... And then a lot of times...

21:31

 a lot of them will make the data tell them what they want it to tell them. What? Like they don't, I mean, it's, you know, it is what it is. So I always tell them, it's like, hey, if you want to implement a data program, you're interested in having some type of data strategy. Yeah.

21:54

 The first step is we've got to sit down and say, what is your goal with data? How are we going to use data? And then how are we not going to use data? Because it's like, it can...

22:08

 It can be manipulated, and it can be used in a way that some people would consider unethical or not align with their value system. That is true. There is a wrestling, I think, that pastors have to go through of how they feel about data. Yeah.

22:33

 And for context, what you built at Life.Church, I picked up the reins for. And so I get to carry that forward. And as we introduce data engineering and some data science to that, I know that we just had to walk through comfort levels for people. Because it was a little...

22:55

 You know, when we get into some like machine learning and, you know, some modeling things, it's like, do I trust the machine more than I trust the people that maybe it was their job to do that thing for four or five hours? Right. Right. And that's much further down the line. But I do think when you go back and go.

23:11

 There still might be an aversion to counting people. The endless debate. Yeah, and the big one is giving. Do we want people to know what people give? That's the biggest one. And then the second one would be, I always say, okay, I can understand. You don't want to know that I give a certain amount, but I think you should know I do or I don't.

23:37

 Sure. Maybe I give a penny. I count as I do as the same guy who gives a million dollars. Right. But we're in that same. Yeah, we give. I would say that at a minimum should be available to all of your team members. But that again, let's begin. Is that OK? Are we going to allow that?

23:58

 Second would be a lot of people I'll challenge, do you feel comfortable scoring people? And a lot of them are like, absolutely no, that feels gross. Or I'll say, okay, but if we score people, if we do a monthly snapshot and we say, these are the nine things that we hope people do.

24:19

 and they do four of them, then they get four out of nine, right? So they would show up as a level four. A lot of churches are not comfortable with that. Really? Because they don't ever want their people to view people as...

24:36

 like more valuable or less valuable or what have you. So I always say, okay, it's context, right? Like that person will never know their score, but I can tell you right now, like my credit card company, Target, Amazon, I'm scored somewhere. I am like my bank, everything. They put me in a category and they know where I am, right? But what does that do? It allows them to speak to me

25:04

 In a way that meets me where I'm at. Right. I mean, like that. Amber, you're going to catch me on my catchphrase here because I say this, I feel like all the time, but it's about pastoring known people. And you can't pastor unknown people. Right. Right.

25:29

 You just can't. Well, yeah. You can't well. Yeah. You can't individually. Yeah. Right? Right. And the more we know someone, the more we can intimately pastor them. Right. Right. And that is...

25:49

 is that not the church's role? I mean, that's like, and then you extend that out to community, right? It's like, does our congregation or, or what would you, is that the appropriate word? Sure. Does, do we mirror, does, do our demographics mirror our community demographics? And if not, why? Or do we have a demographic of people around us that are needing ministry to

26:19

 Touches or needing or opportunities for the church to be Jesus. I mean, it's like it like most of them can't tell you what a five mile radius of their campus like what the people what the what the community looks like.

26:34

 So one of the things you just kind of like dropped a nugget and it's like big data. The church doesn't really even know what that means. But I do think when churches hear big data or data in general, they think about growing organization. And as you're talking, your heart and the thing that comes out is your desire to pastor people individually, right? It's almost the...

26:59

 antithesis of what you think data will do for you right it doesn't grow your organization it certainly can and you can certainly use it as a tool for that but it really is about pastoring individual people right really well well it's no different than if when i open up amazon my app yeah

27:18

 It presents me suggested items that are very similar. It knows me, right? Yes. So, like, it feels like a natural experience. Like, it's... I feel like they know me. Yeah. If I open up my Amazon app and it's, like, car repair parts...

27:41

 I wouldn't know what to do with that. That's a waste of my time. Yeah, yeah. And so they use data to know, they look at what I'm purchasing, to even possibly anticipate, if I bought this, this is probably the next thing I'm going to be looking for. Yeah.

28:01

 That's a great point because I don't know if your car is creepy like this, but when I get in my car, like Apple Maps pops up and it predicts. Where you're going to go. Where I'm going to go based on my habits. Yeah. Right. And I open my church app and it's the same thing everyone else sees. Yeah. Yeah.

28:21

 And that feels very disconnected to me. It does. And if you don't have children, but you're getting emails about baptizing your child, that's a waste of my time. Like, that's just not a need that... It's a super practical way that data plays a part in the church. And so much overlaps. I mean, obviously, we're passionate about it at Apollos because it overlaps digital so well. And when you do both of them really well... Really well. Yeah.

28:51

 You actually increase the pastoral nature. Absolutely. Of what your church does. Right. Absolutely. And if your goal is to grow, which most all of them are, would love growth. Yeah. Like you can't know every single per every detail about every single person as a.

29:11

 No. Pastor. Like, you just can't. But I mean, but one thing I'll say is like, okay, you desire that. A data program is not this little side project. It has to be like, it's, you have to invest. You need staff. You need technology. It's an investment. Sure. But so was your building. Yeah. So was your building. So are your cameras and whatever else, your chairs, everything. You're spending a ton of money on an LED wall. Yeah.

29:41

 Yeah. You need to be prepared to invest. And part of when we go in and we do a discovery, I'm also assessing culture because that's really important. So you can have amazing technology stack and great data visualization and systems and processes, but if your culture isn't

30:01

 adapting adopting it it's not going to be successful you can have very data hungry people bad systems bad process bad dashboards all that but the magic really happens when you you've got to have that cultural and then you've got to have the expertise and then it really comes together and can be cool so uh you you've alluded this a couple times but i'm gonna go back

30:27

 like what are the 10 standardized things? Like if you walk into a church and you're like, they actually have consistently good data around these 10 things. What would the ideal be? Well, I think if you're multi-site, assuming you're multi-site. Okay. Um,

30:48

 Are your children's rooms all named the same at all of your different locations? Majority of churches, it is not. Wow. And I think, how confusing is that for your guest? Like, if I know my kid is in the whale room or whatever, and I happen to be across town visiting or another city visiting a friend, and I go in and I'm looking for a whale, but there's no whale. He's in the donkey room now. Like, that is just so confusing. Yeah.

31:16

 Yeah, that's a great point. But that is... That's amazing to me that that's not the case. No, it's... I don't know if I have very many multi-site churches that have consistent naming. Okay.

31:31

 All right, so nickname would be one. Yeah, and that's like example would be kids. But a system and a process that is consistent across, because then that allows us to collect data from everyone and everyone's doing the same thing. You'd be surprised at how many people

31:48

 They each have their own different systems. One's living out of a spreadsheet. One's living out of Trello. You've got to have that unified systems and processes. You said a bad word to meet Trello. As someone that dealt with data, Trello is...

32:12

 I'm sure it has its purpose. It's not. It doesn't have a Tinder data purpose, is what I would say. Yeah, yeah. Keep your Tinder data out of there. It's a good list and task. It's a good task manager. Yeah, it is. Try and email Trello support and retrieve customer data. Impossible? Impossible. Yeah. There's a free tip for you. Oh.

32:40

 If you're on the fence about Trello, there you go. Yeah, yeah. But no, I think church management systems is a whole other conversation. I mean, I can only do so much with the data that exists. So, like, I can't... I mean, you would be surprised how many pastors ask me what percentage of our attenders tithe. And you can't tell them? I'm like...

33:09

 Do you have access to their income? Do you ask them what their income is? Yeah. Like I can tell you based on their household income and the average household income maybe in your area. And we can maybe make some assumptions. But like I can't tell you that unless you want to.

33:26

 Ask them what they make every year, right? But that is, I mean, that goes back to what do we want to use data? How are we going to use it? What are you going to do with it? Because if you decide that it's worth asking that question, then ask that question. But that's very intentional. It's a part of your strategy. But a lot of them don't think about that much.

33:48

 They just they just want to grow. They just want to increase giving. They just want to get people back in the building. And it's like like pause. Like, why do you do what you do?

34:02

 What are your values? What's your mission? And then it's like, okay, how can we use data to support that? You don't even have to be collecting it yet. We'll help you figure out a way to start collecting it. Is it going to be expensive? It's going to be expensive. It's an investment. But it's like you say, it's no different than investing in your building. Yeah, and I wouldn't say expensive because, and I go back to this, and actually, Alan, he said this so well in a conversation that him and I had.

34:31

 where a building was never in a mission statement. If you look at the mission statement of so many churches, the building is never there. Mm-hmm.

34:42

 And so why do we sideline digital or data or any of these other things as like outside of that? And we automatically assume building is in our mission statement. And it's not necessarily a nod to not doing anything physical because I desperately want my kids to grow up with a physical expression of biblical church. Sure.

35:06

 Right. But it is a nod to how we think about the rest of that soup. And to your point, and the reason I bring that up is because expense is in contrast in relation to something else. And so is data expensive?

35:30

 I don't know. You tell me. Yeah. Like how many staff members do you have dedicated to your kids program that meets one hour a week? Mm hmm. Yeah.

35:42

 Is that expensive? Is that expensive? Yeah. Yeah. But I think because there is a knowledge gap, people don't really fully understand what all it takes or what all is involved because it's invisible. And it's like with any technology. Yeah. But I would actually say data and investment in data is the cheapest thing you can do to grow your mission. Yeah. Yeah.

36:05

 I would agree. In context, especially for the return. Yeah. The return on that investment is crazy. Yeah. I will say it is not a quick, usually not quick, though. Because you've got to deal with the cultural piece. Sure. People get really nervous about it. People feel uncomfortable with it. But to me, I'm like, this is just another tool.

36:31

 For you to do ministry well. That's all it is. It's not going to replace you. It is a tool for you to be a good steward. It will enhance everything you do. Right. If done well. Right. And also, I mean, we don't need to talk thoroughly about this at all, but there's a lot of...

36:52

 Bad data practices and bad perspectives in the context of the local church. Right. That's why I say, like, what is your data strategy? Yeah. How are you going to use it? How are you not going to use it? Yeah. And then once you know that, then you can decide, okay, well, which...

37:10

 What church management system do we use? Okay, well, there's a lot of them. And I can tell you, they all have pros and cons. So let's find one that supports your data strategy. But if you have no data strategy, yeah, what the heck? How do you know what tool to pick?

37:26

 I mean, it's like you could look at that all day long because it's like, well, this one has great user interface, great interaction, but I can't... The reporting's terrible. Or this one's got terrible interface, but the reporting is fantastic, right? So it's like, okay, well...

37:43

 What is your strategy? Which one is going to support your strategy? Then that's the one you should go with. I had a conversation just last week. That's interesting. I have an aversion to reporting within church management systems. I just feel like...

37:58

 What they're good for is creating lists for birthday cards. Oh, yeah. Like that's about the max of where I think you should use reporting in a church management. I really think you should pull that all out and do that in a separate system. Yeah. That's my personal opinion. Well, I think it's because no one's doing it well. That's...

38:18

 I don't, I haven't seen a system that's trying to do anything other than that, but you just described. Sure. And I think that's right place, right tool, right, right thing. Right. Um, but when we get into like, uh, the ability to really make unknown people known and to pastor people, well, that does not need to happen in any visualization or any recording within a church management system. Agree. Agree. Like,

38:49

 The tool set to accomplish that is unique and robust. And that's my hot take on it. Yeah. No, I would agree completely.

39:01

 I'm glad you agree. That makes me feel better. That's why we do what we do. I'll keep my hot take going. Okay. And obviously, Apollos and Smart Metrics work really well together. We give you so much data to be able to go, hey, here's how I'm engaging and pass through my people well.

39:20

 And then the data behind Apollos says, and we can see an increase in generosity when you increase engagement. We see an increase in weekend attendance when you increase engagement. And we actually see an increase in new people joining the church. And Chase Oaks in Dallas has experienced this really well.

39:42

 When you give people a place to land digitally and belong digitally before they ever arrive in person. And that's the data we're seeing behind that. And you work with a lot of churches that are Apollo's customers. Yeah.

39:59

 Yeah. And even think outside, even think beyond that. So like even just the tangible of what's happening, how we're engaging, how we're interacting. Think about forward thinking. So I think Mortarstone recently released a report, I think at the end of 2023. And I think they have about a little over 300 churches in their system. And they looked at all of that data and said, yeah.

40:26

 I think they said it will take 10 Gen Y. I might not have my numbers right. But the number of the younger generation that it will take to replace the boomers. Oh, yeah. So if we know that we have this generation that is contributing a significant amount of giving. Yes. Are we preparing for...

40:49

 their passing and the next generation to come up to support what is happening. So even like you're looking at what's happening today, but are we forward thinking and being strategic about our generosity plan or generosity strategy? And we use data to understand. Absolutely. One church might have 70% of their giving is coming from the baby boomer generation. Yeah.

41:17

 That is, they need to be aware and thinking of that. Another church may be a lot younger, and that's a very small and significant percentage of people giving. I don't know of a church that could tell you what percentage of their giving comes from what generation. I've never had a church that knew that.

41:35

 Yeah, but I think and the stats I've seen across the board are about an 80-20 split. 80% of generosity is coming from baby boomers or above. And the other stat I'm aware of is, and this is the low end number I've seen, but the wealth transfer between baby boomers and the next generation. Yeah.

41:58

 is over $3 trillion. It's the largest wealth transfer in the history of our country. I think in the history of the world is like from generation to generation, right? And so that's what's on the horizon. And my kids are playing Fortnite right now. Like somebody has to think about the way that they're going to express their generosity. Yeah.

42:26

 Well, and to your point, I believe it's is it the millennials or or I believe they say that they're as generous as the boomers, but they prefer to give to multiple things. Yes. Millennials are. I think this stat is totally off the top of my head. So, like, let's cover. I think they're per percentage as a general population more generous than.

42:55

 Meaning more of them participate in giving. Yeah. But the amount that they give is less. Yes. That's the caveat. It is. And, but I think they prefer to give a portion to the church and then a portion to like the local. Socially funded. Yes. Yes. So, so if we know that, like, what is our strategy? Hmm.

43:16

 How are we going to prepare for that? How are we going to accommodate that? And to your point, that data will greatly impact what you do next as a church. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's silly to be oblivious to it because we can look in your database and tell you what that is. As long as you're collecting date of birth on people...

43:45

 Yeah, that's not a hard like thing to put together. Right. And that goes back to the data strategy. So when people enter your system, we do a data audit. How do they enter your system? Yeah. And then it's like, what are you collecting? OK, well, if you just were to add this one more data point, these are all the things that we could do with it. Right.

44:04

 Most of them, there's just no, there's no strategy. There's no intentionality. So you go in, you work with churches, first discovery, then help them create a strategy. But you also have the technical team behind you to go, we can bring that strategy to life in a really good way. Right, right, right. So I think what sets us apart or makes us special is that we understand that

44:32

 how churches work and we understand the caveats of church data we understand the challenges of church data I'm also passionate about just the leadership challenges that happen and being able to walk leadership through maybe the data is not telling us something that we thought it was going to tell us okay so what do we do with that or what is the next another piece of data that if we began to gather would help us gain clarity on what this possibly means in the next step with that so yeah

45:02

 I'll just say this. If you want to engage with someone that fully understands the local church, you need someone that's lived and breathed in the local church. There's a language barrier that people that don't work on a staff have. Mm-hmm.

45:26

 There's just common tidbits that you can pick up a lot faster. The speed at which you can execute. And that's not a knock towards people that serve in the space that don't have that history. But I think it's definitely a competitive advantage for what you bring. Well, it's just so nuanced. And the lack of industry standards, you put that together and it is...

45:54

 There's a there's a reason a lot of people have spent a lot of money on church data and not gotten anything out of it. Yes. And I've I've seen Amber Smart and Smart Metrics is the solution for that. I hope. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. I mean, that's what we love to do is. And I always tell people, like, it shouldn't be hard. It feels really hard and it shouldn't. And that's what we love coming in and saying, like, actually really easy.

46:20

 it can be it can be yeah yeah and so let's put the systems and processes in place let's ask the right questions let's get the right people in place and then this will just integrate and become a part of your culture and then you'll think how in the world did we ever make it before this i mean i have clients that are like it is the grace of god like seriously when they look back and they just think

46:43

 I don't even, it's scary, like how we survived or. Yeah. And there is an element to what we do of mystery. Sure, absolutely. And so that's what sets us apart from business as well. Like a pharmaceutical, it's like they have marketing teams, they have industries, all that stuff. There is an element of mystery to what we do that we have to honor and respect. And it is a part of the conversation. It's the part of the system.

47:13

 And I love to just facilitate curiosity with the team. I feel like that has, I feel like that needs to be invited back into the church. Because I feel like... Sorry. No, I just feel like we're in that mindset of we pretty much know, we're very certain. Yeah.

47:34

 And that is very stifling and it will prohibit your growth and will actually make you become out of touch with your community. We used to have a saying, an axiom is what we called it. Thank you, Terry Storch. In the office, data has a seat at the table. Right. It is not the head of the table in the local church, but it certainly has a seat.

48:04

 Right. And my friend Tom says data cannot buy you lunch. So it's very neutral. And it's that's another reason why it needs to be invited, because it's not. It just is.

48:18

 Yeah. So welcome it. Welcome it to the conversation. And there'll be times you make decisions contrary to what the data is saying. Sure, absolutely. Very possible. Yes, because the Holy Spirit has led you to do so. Absolutely. That's that element of mystery that's still involved. And so, but I feel like it's very irresponsible and...

48:42

 I don't know. It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like you're being a good steward of what all God has given you to not leverage data. I mean, so much of it. A lot of them are just sitting on a lot of it because, like I say, they are collecting certain things. And I always tell them, start with where you are and use what you have. Absolutely, yeah. Like, you have a 40-year-old spreadsheet. Let's use the 40-year-old spreadsheet. I still can't believe that exists. Oh, that frightens me.

49:11

 No, it's for real. Yeah. Okay. Amber, thank you for joining us today. Yeah, thank you for having me. If you guys want to reach out to Amber, I would encourage you to. You can find her at Smart Metrics, and we'll have some details below that you can get her direct email with. I didn't ask her if I could give that out. I'm just going to give it out. And I would encourage you...

49:37

 If you have questions about data and church, there's no one that I know better equipped to answer those than Amber. Thank you. And she is a friend of Apollos and the Apollos community. And so if you're an Apollos app user or in the Apollos ecosystem, she's also a great partner with what we do. So thank you for being that. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Have a great day, guys. Bye.