If Sleep Is A Gift, Why Do We Refuse To Open It?

We explore how a sleep physician and a chaplain weave CBT‑I, routine, and scripture into a grounded approach to insomnia. The talk moves from myths about sleep meds to practical rules, honest lament, and a calmer trust that welcomes rest rather than forcing it.

• integrating CBT‑I with a Christian worldview
• the limits of sleep pills and what they actually do
• stimulus control and re‑training the bed for sleep
• scheduled worry time and idea dumps for racing minds
• screens, news, and content choices before bed
• Psalm 127, Genesis rhythms, and trust over toil
• PTSD, Parkinson’s, and journaling as feedback
• communication with God vs spiritual checklists
• cultural pressure, comparison, and sleep needs
• practical routines for waking in the night

If anyone listening is interested in the book, you can just go to sleephabitsjournal.com and that will get you to where you can buy it

"The Flowers You Are Picking Today Come From the Seeds You Planted Yesterday. Don't Like Your Boquet Of Flowers? Then Change the Seeds You Are Planting Today." Chaplain Terry 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello, friend. Chaplain Terry Warner here. My interview today, and we're going to be discussing more in interviewing, is Dr. Benjamin Long. He's a sleep doctor. And he gets into unique approach to sleep as both a medical need and a divine gift could resonate with your audience in seeking spiritual renewal, mindful rest. An exploration of sleep habits, theology, and practical tips could provide a fresh perspective on finding peace through faith and rest. I'm not going to go ahead with a whole list of credentials. He's got quite a few of them. And we're going to get right down to the meat of everything and turn this over. I'm just going to let him have take charge of the meeting. And I'll do the best I can to answer those questions. So, friends, please welcome Dr. Benjamin along. Doctor?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Hi, thank you so much for having me on, Terry. I really uh appreciate the invitation.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

You're welcome. Glad to be here.

Faith Practices Missing In Sleeplessness

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Ah, and um exactly as you said, I've just uh fallen in love with practicing sleep medicine. I for a long time thought I would be a general pediatrician like my granddaddy, but then after running toward that goal for a long time, I pivoted toward sleep medicine and just really fell in love with helping out families, my niches, helping out children and families with sleep. But I'm credentialed and have experience and licensed for helping people with all ages. And so what I found a lot from my older patients or adult patients was that I often get a spiritual history as part of my routine clinical exam. And I ask if spirituality or religion is an important part of the person's daily life. And I was shocked by the number of people who profess to be Christians, they report that they have, you know, brick prayer and Bible reading are important parts of their daily spiritual life. And yet when I kind of went that next step and asked, okay, so if you're experiencing difficulty with your sleep, do you ever utilize those resources that your faith gives you as far as prayer and Bible reading when you respond to your sleeplessness? And everyone just kind of looks at me like, what? So uh that is what kind of propelled me on this journey amongst kind of my own thoughts or I guess my own journey of trying to reconcile being a Christian and being a physician, and how does that look like integrating my faith into my practice of medicine? And that led to the book that I just wrote called Sleep Habits Journal.

Host’s Health Journey And Tracking

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, I have quite a bit of journal on my sleep. Uh one thing that occurred to me some time ago was that your spiritual condition determines your sleep condition. And we have a tendency to uh try reading the Bible, but we don't have a reading it with a purpose and we get into things. Uh as far as journaling goes, I keep a book of my journal and uh for years. Uh if you ever ask me on what I'm doing April the third, the night of the murder, I can tell you. Just in case. Um last year in 2025, I walked 1,905,140 steps. Whew. All right. Uh 781.47 miles, okay, 8,622 flights of stairs. And that's the good part. That's the and I had a good night's sleep, uh, 72% of six hours and five minutes. If you go back here on my sleep, uh 65% rating in four hours and two minutes, and it really drops not enough data to even record it on several days back, and then I jump all over the place from two hours two to four hours of sleep a night. Well, I'm I'm a veteran and I got evaluated, and this doctor said uh there's there's somebody you ought to go see. So they sent me to a psychologist, and coming to find out I had PTSD and I had nightmares and flashbacks and so forth. So he did not recommend anything other than he made me aware of had it. I contracted Parkinson's disease from the uh the Agent Orange when I was spraved Agent Orange in Vietnam. Fifty years later I get Parkinson's. One of the things on Parkinson's was uh getting up in the middle of the night and wandering around and doing things. So they I took up golf at that time after a long, long recess, and upper body motion does a lot for my Parkinson's. My hands are steady. Does a lot for my Parkinson's. So then I got the I'm uh a certified chaplain and I read and study the Bible, and I got to reading and studying the word of God. They also I don't know, you may be familiar with this. They introduced me to uh uh sleep apnea. Not sleep, not sleep apnea. This is for uh anxiety and insomnia. Yeah, and you're familiar with that, and it helped me quite quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Right, yeah. I say the alpha stem machines, I don't actually have a lot of experience prescribing them myself or with them, but I know a little bit of the research kind of behind them.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah, and then on top of that, I keep doing journals and stuff, and then I started podcasting and writing articles and things like that. I just had my book approved. Oh, congratulations to be published, thank you. So my first book, and I have several more going. But uh I won't get ahead of you here. I'll wait to have you ask. But I uh certain things I do to ensure a good night's sleep. And last night, oh I was so happy with this. This is the first 86%, seven hours and twenty-seven minutes.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, and that that was that was good. And so mainly uh I have certain I have several rules I that I do and don't do. Okay. It help quite a bit, so yeah, absolutely.

Rules For Better Nights

CBT‑I And Stimulus Control

Genesis, Rhythm, And Rest

SPEAKER_00 7:18

I would say that it's probably pretty close to what I talk about in my book. Um, I call them the sleepless night rules, but people who are familiar with cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia will know them as the stimulus control instructions. And learning that as a sleep doctor, I just saw that there seemed to be some kind of parallel between the boundaries and the guidelines that the therapy was instructing people on how to break their conditioned arousals so that way the bed can become a place for restfulness and for sleep. But then also what I was encountering in the Bible as well. I mean, even from the beginning pages of Genesis and the creation of the world, that you see a very cyclic ordered rhythmic pattern in creation and in that repetition of, and then there was evening and then there was morning, and there was a you know one day, yeah, and you have that repeating over and over again. And so um it really led me to you know start wondering what does the Bible say about sleep and sleeplessness, and even from just a very simple word study, word search, you're like, oh, it the Bible says a lot. So um it's it's been an interesting exploration so far.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

One thing that's had that's sort of uh a negative in this in this our culture is we have th we think if we take medicine, we we can't use our faith. And we think if we use our faith, we can't take medicine. And we get and it's and the medicine is actually keeps the symptoms down more than the cure, but if you take your medicine in the name of Jesus or in the name of Christ and let him endorse that, then then the medicine works a lot better for you. And then the other thing I found out is I have a favorite psalm, and I have several, but uh he gives his beloved sleep. Yeah, so you know, I mean, I'm well I'm beloved because I'm a Christian, so therefore I expect sleep when I ask for it, if I don't have it. Do I get it all every night? Uh no, not till I usually settle down and and let the Bible let my spirit man get a break, then I do it. I find that I can agitate it and really cause problems by my activity in the daytime, and especially just before I go to bed. I've got to I've got to get back in rhythm and guarantee guarantee. And then I have if I get up in the middle of the night, I have certain things I do to go back to sleep. Sometimes just sleeping pills doesn't work. Sometimes they work real good.

Medicine, Prayer, And Psalm 127

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yeah, absolutely. I'd say most people come to me expecting that I'm just gonna throw sleep pills at them, and they're surprised when I say, no, actually, I think there are other things that we can do, and certainly um sometimes I do both or one or the other, but I try to just see what is it that this person needs in their specific context, what are we trying to achieve, and make sure that um they have a reasonable expectation of what sleep aids are and are not. And people are often surprised that I tell them, you know, it's like band aid, sleep aid is not going to actually cause you to sleep. All of these medicines are just helping you overwhelmingly to just be more drowsy so that way you can get to that point that you're relaxed enough to be able to fall asleep. And so there's no perfect sleep pill that is going to um replicate what a normal night's sleep without a medication is going to be like. Like I can't give you a pill that just gives you sleep, it's always going to have some kind of impact on the body. And so that is kind of the first myth that I often have to kind of jump over and get some buy-in. And or if someone's already on a sleep medication, talk to them about possibly coming off of it. But the main thing for insomnia that has the best benefit and sustained progress with it is cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. So therapy that addresses thoughts and behaviors that at their root are not conducive to good sleep. And that's what we're I'm really trying to get at in the book is bring that evidence, but then also anchor it in that Christian worldview. I love Psalm 127, that um verse that you quoted with for he gives to his beloved sleep. And I think that beginning of that psalm is so profound in that it starts off with, unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. And then unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain. It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest. And there's one um translation that I particularly love that describes it as eating the bread of anxious toil, for he gives to his beloved sleep. And I think that's exactly what our society needs to hear today. You know, it's so funny that that was written so long ago, and yet um, you know, people you I hear that all the time, people that I'm talking to in my office of like, well, I gotta get up early because I have to do X, Y, or Z, or I can't go to bed yet because I still have all this stuff on my to-do list. And it's it's a different mindset to uh kind of peel back that illusion of control to realize, no, unless the Lord is the one who is sustaining you, then everything that we are doing is in vain. So you you're putting all of this stock into your toil, and really the the that bread that you're eating from it is not life-giving. And what is that gift? What is the life-giving thing? That's God is giving you that sleep, you know. And we could go farther into that psalm because then it's very interesting, because then it it goes into the very famous um, you know, children are a gift from the Lord, and then talks about having your quiver full of arrows. And so a lot of commentators have been like, this is kind of weird. Like, why are these two things, you know, like sandwiched together in this psalm? But at least me, my perspective is at the very core of that psalm, we have the two gifts of sleep and of children. So that this like very core center in that psalm, we're showing that like you can get so distracted from all this stuff that I'm trying to do. I'm trying to protect my town, I'm trying to build my house, I'm trying to do all these things, but God has already given you this gift of sleep of children, a family that you can get so distracted from you don't even see that the gift is before you.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yes. I have gotten work to the point or been at the point where I would get up and do exercises, you know, to to w to ward off the uh mental anguish that I was going through that was keeping me asleep. Uh the the Psalm of Ascents I I like quite a bit to Jerusalem. I think that's pretty neat. So when I lay down at night, I have a routine that I go through. But before that, I have a routine that I go through before I lay down. Because if I wait and lay down and try to do the routine when I'm and try so I can go to sleep, I wind up not not being able to go. So I I got a few points here that I do that are rules. So feel free to interject anytime you want to. Uh no TV in the evening. Just as ma and and actually for me, no TV news, period. Just not just don't go there. Only watch Christian programs. No computer screen before bedtime. I find that a computer screen activates my mind. Go to bed to rest in God, not to sleep. And wake up not sleeping. Not to Oh, if I wake up and I'm not sleepy, it picks me a cup of green tea with a teaspoon of honey. And that generally Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I am so sorry. Apparently there's someone at my front door. Do you mind if I just attend to that real quick? Okay, I'm so sorry. I'm gonna see if I can pause it.

Routine, Screens, And Bedtime Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Try to plan for all right, no problem. That's just way that's the way it is. Do not go to bed angry or unforgiving or holding a grudge. Tell your wife you love her and tell God you love him. And then I generally say it, and your word says I get sleep, so I'm going to sleep. Oh, you have good days and bad days. Sometimes things work really great and sometimes they don't. My golfing that I that's what I do to keep his Parkinson under control. I had two little TIAs and it ruined my right side, and I could not, I was totally frustrating myself trying to play golf. So I just switched uh left-handed. And I played I play golf left-handed. And I I can shoot in the middle to high 40s. Okay. You know, so I'm pretty happy. That's 79, that's not too bad.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Right, right. So yeah, I think uh that reminds me of Proverbs, it's in chapter 19. The fear of the Lord leads to life. Um, and so that one may sleep satisfied, untouched by evil, I believe is a slight player paraphrase there. And um double bogey golf's eagle is evil. Yeah. Well, uh, you know, as you're going through your list of these, uh, this routine that you have in your your bedtime, I think one thing I try to point people to when we're thinking about having a theology of sleep is that this is communication, not manipulation. You know, it's not a magical thing that I'm going to say a verse and then got that checks something off on God's divine checklist. And so then he's like, okay, you get sleep now tonight. And it's that's that's not it. This is this is communication, this is relationship with God that we are building. And as we all progress through the Christian life, you learn more and more. The spiritual life is about getting God in his kingdom and me instead of you know me trying to do the right thing or say the right thing, or you know, have all of these external markers or behaviors that are necessarily um, you know, those are the that's the fruit of the spirit. And that's we shouldn't be striving after the fruit. That's going to come from internal transformation, and that only happens with you know the Holy Spirit and the Spirit's working.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yes, and when I fly the airplane, I have a checklist I go by. Right. The checklist is to get me into the book. That's the purpose of the checklist. And the same way the scripture is not a checklist, it's the it's uh it is in a way, but it's to get me into the the spirit realm or the realm of God or the communication with God to where I'm comfortable having him around. Absolutely. You know, that makes you didn't mean to interrupt you there.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

No, no, no. And I think you're saying it like the point I think I'm trying to make is that when we Order our lives in a way that we we fear the Lord. We are, um, you know, I'm thinking about the opening chapter of Psalm and that vision of the the blessed is the one who does not walk in the way of the wicked.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yes.

Communication With God, Not Checklists

SPEAKER_00 20:20

And it it it contrasts the the wicked man versus the one who is blessed, and that blessed man is going to be the one who is like that tree that's rooted by a river, and then the leaves are going to you know bear fruit in any season. That the the change that we are trying to move toward, um it's again, it's not that I'm doing all these things so that I get that fruit per se, but it is when we live our lives within the confines and the boundaries that God gives us, then we are going to see that fruit. You know, if we have that fear of the Lord, then that tends to lead to good sleep. And of course, are there going to be barriers and things that come up? Like, yes, 100%. You know, there's that also that psalm or Proverb, oh, I don't remember where it's at, but it talks about the evil man can't fall asleep until he has done evil. So, you know, that seems kind of counterintuitive of like, okay, if there's these verses about, you know, that the it's the one who fears the Lord or that the sweet or the sleep is sweet of the uh work, I think it's like the working man, whether he's an Ecclesiastes. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Like um, versus the rich man who, you know, no matter whether he's eaten his filler what have you, that you know, he's still having difficulty with his sleep. So there are these images of like different proverbs in the wisdom literature through Proverbs and Psalms and Ecclesiastes of sleep. Um, but then there's this flip side too of that evil man who can't sleep unless he does evil. That shows like it's not this transactional nature to it, it's that God in his ordered reality and creation and um how he has designed us, has designed us for accepting the gift of sleep, you know. And so it is when we order our lives in a way that we are living out the principles of God's kingdom that we are going to be able to sleep sweetly in some ways.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah, a lot of us are so blessed oriented that we try to initiate manipulate God to perform some kind of magic act so we get our prayers answered. Right. So we pray for things or do this or do that, and trying to get God to do things rather than reading the word and letting the word do things through you. Right. And and that that yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

We're so removed from the pagan ancient world, we don't realize that that's more pagan than Christian. Of yes, of you know, like the pagans were the ones who went and they if they did a certain sacrifice or certain things or whatever, then they were expecting some kind of manipulation of the gods to be able to bless their crops or to bless their things. And it's like we don't realize that that same impulse we can like bring into our theology it the same way, and that we're trying, we don't realize we're trying to manipulate God when it's really we we're the ones that need manipulation, we need transformation and molding.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah, the the heart or the the the that's that cell between our ears causes a lot of a lot of problems. Absolutely. Well, I had a I had the reason that all this was brought on was when I went to Vietnam, I had three close calls of near-death experience. And the first one extremely traumatizing, but I didn't recognize it as a as a problem for years, for several years, after I got back and remarried, and then I married a lady and and we decided to raise a family in a godly way. And then we started getting into the the Bible, and then I started getting into the the meaning of the Bible, and probably Bible reading. And I'm gonna say this Bible reading mixed with faith has probably been the biggest help of getting what I needed, not so much what I wanted, but what I needed, and letting letting God work through me. And I and that's why I so I would ask myself, what does the Bible say? What does the Bible say? And sometimes I didn't like what the Bible said. Right, that's true. So I would try to manipulate God by giving this extra amount or doing this or doing that, trying to get him to manipulate, you know. Well, if I just you know, if and if he if he would just understand. My wife when when we disagree, I think she doesn't understand because I didn't say it well enough. So I have a tendency to repeat it more verbally and more clearly. And finally she says, look, I don't agree. And so the Holy Spirit said that to me several times, you know. Yeah, I I I hear what you're saying, but uh that's that's not what my word says. And we like say, we try to get around things and do things, and and well, it doesn't hurt if I watch the news, it doesn't hurt if I say this, it doesn't hurt if I do this or do that. Yes, it does. It makes a difference in your behavior, and until you get comfortable with yourself, you can't get comfortable with God.

Character Revealed On Sleepless Nights

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that comes out a lot in the sleepless night when people are having difficulty sleep, is so often today, people reach for a screen or something to fill their time, or I hear the phrase, well, if I can't sleep, I might as well be productive a lot. And there certainly is nothing wrong with you know doing your laundry or doing the dishes or you know, doing something to be productive, but I think uh what you're pointing at too is that when our plans go awry, that's when we truly see the the true nature of our character and what it is that we desire or are moving toward. So if you know I am um someone who values productivity and efficiency, then that really makes it difficult for me to enter into rest. Um, but the same thing can be said of other vices as well, too, you know, of our own anger or pride or lust or all those things can kind of creep up while you are in the middle of like, I just want to sleep, I can't sleep, and your self-control tank is kind of depleted. And in a way, it's almost like a forced fasting is sometimes how I think about the sleepless night, and that um you are going without something, and you know, if you spend any time fasting, you you realize I'm actually not as cool and evenly healed as I think I am. I am on a full stomach, but then the moment I don't have food and my mood is shifting because I haven't had something to eat, and I'm a little bit more cranky. We try to think that that's not who I actually am, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

You eat a lot before you go on the fast.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Right, right, exactly. Like, okay, I'm about to go on the fast, so let me like carb load or something like that. Um, but no, it's like that is actually revealing who I am. So, in a lot of ways, the sleepless night and the spiritual life is uh revelatory and that it's exposing these parts of myself that I'm I'm able to either ignore because I'm so I fill my stuff, my day with so many things, I don't have to think about that. Um, or it reveals these parts of ourselves that maybe that might be the reason why God is bringing you to this sleepless night. Um, it it's interesting to hear mature Christians who talk about sleeplessness and in a way are able to find this beauty in it because it is an opportunity to connect with God. And there's a certain level of quiet, and there's no other, literally no other noise, but then there's this calm that uh uh can be a source of comfort and joy and joy and peace in the Holy Spirit that's really different to compared to, you know, even if I'm just trying to do my quiet time kind of in the morning or in the middle of the day. And so so that's I think a big thing that I am trying to accomplish in my writing and my work and what I'm doing is to remember your spiritual life doesn't stop when your head hits the pillow. That our all of life that we experience is part of our spiritual life. And so what ask just asking the question, what might God be doing um in my own sleepless night?

SPEAKER_01 29:19

When I was trying to cure my sleep by myself, I would get extremely busy so that I would be tired, so that I would try and fall asleep. And I I have still have a bad habit of getting too much on my plate and saying no. You know, I don't I don't need that. And that's that's been a big step uh in my uh spiritual walk. And this started back in 1972. This is not something I picked up last week, you know, and it took a long time to to before I started seeing fruits of of God's word in my life. Because I'd see somebody I respected and and compared myself to them, and I'd come out on the short end of the stick, and then so then I'd go do myself to do something, busy myself. Then I get tired and exhausted and I fail. Uh then I really have sleepless nights. And I just I'm trying to perform, I'm performance-oriented instead of love-oriented, and it just uh it just drives me up a wall uh when I get that way. And so and a lot of times, every so often I have to stop and clean house and undo a lot of stuff that I had done. Consequences are terrible and really caused a lot a lot of problems, you know. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

I mean, I resonate with that because I'm definitely can be very performance-oriented, and it's really easy because so much of career and work life and even in school, like if you are ambitious and you perform and you get a lot of feedback, but that uh a lot of your value comes from making that A, making that grade, getting that promotion, doing this or that. And so um that's the the the beautiful thing about sleep is that you enter it in indirectly, you know, and there's not really much uh else in life that we have to wait to fall upon us like we do for sleep. You know, you you are literally doing something with your body. I'm getting into this position to like lay on my left side and to kind of curl up and and to close my eyes, and I'm pretending and eventually sleep is going to come. You know, there's not really much else when you're eating or walking or doing something that you have to do some kind of activity before you actually get to to the sleep.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

And yeah, and then a lot of times my body is is not ready for sleep, and my mind is, and then then that's a that's a confrontation you have to deal with. It's just uh you know, I uh my first job out of high school was on the Saturn rocket test stand that put the man on the moon. My dad was the electrical engineer for that project.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

I come from a long line of inventors, and so we're we're always inventing stuff in our mind. It doesn't shut down, yeah. You know, and then as I get older, it keeps increasing. And you've got to be able to turn it off. You you got to turn it off and rest in God.

Scheduling Worry And Idea Time

SPEAKER_00 32:40

So absolutely, and yeah, I I feel like that is one of the more common complaints with sleep, is that I I call them my overthinkers, that you're just you've got all this stuff that's like ideas popping up, like popcorn and things like that, and it's like so hard to like what do I do with that? And I feel like there's a a portion of people where it's I have to go back to what am I filling my day with because their day is so busy and so chaotic and stuff like that, they just literally don't have time to for their mind to even process their stress or to have space to think about those things until it's time for bed. So sometimes it's a matter of actually scheduling that time. So, especially for people who have significant worries, um, I actually often prescribe scheduling worry time, which sounds very counterintuitive because you're like, I'm trying not to worry. Why would I schedule time to worry? Um but the reason we do that is you're trying to contain your worries into a specific point in the day. And so again, not a magical thing, but it is a okay, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna write out all of these things that I'm worrying about. But a very similar thing could be said to people who have like quote unquote an overactive imagination or you know, or get all these ideas or things like that, is that you can try to put at least have an outlet for that too. Like for those people, instead of necessarily like a worrying, it's almost like I see it as like a geyser of like I'm I don't have time to be able to think of my ideas during the day. And so then it's like builds up until it's like old faithful and just you know, kind of comes off. And so for those people, it's same prescription, but for a different reason. I'm saying give your time, give yourself some time to be able to express that because your mind is going to try and do that when you're trying to fall asleep, and so we want to shift that to a time that's not for when it's time to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Well uh thinking along that lines, when I'm doing something that's bothering me, I have a tendency to what I do is I look at a worst-case scenario and what I would do to deal with that, if that happened. And then I allot so much time for that, if that was to happen, I've allotted the time, and then I I put it on the back burner because it's taken care of and I don't I don't do it again. Because I'll otherwise I find I'll worry about the same thing every day. Oh yeah. If if I let if I let it go. The other thing is uh, you know, finances and money is is quite a for years was quite a hindrance because I didn't handle it well, because I wasn't trained to handle it well. So I looked at a worst case scenario and then I would try to make sure I did not end in that position to where I'd go for a first worst-case scenario. But I what's it gonna take? And then this is what what might happen. How much time am I gonna devote to worrying about it, or how much time does it deserve to be worried about? Well, technically it doesn't deserve any time, but anyway, I would give that amount of time to it, and then after that I consider the issue, I consider it settled because either if it turned out great, I was fine, if it turned out bad, I knew what to do in worst case scenario. And that's I still do that to this day.

Worst‑Case Planning And Catastrophizing

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah. It sounds very similar to something that I prescribe for people who have a lot of catastrophizing with their trying to fall asleep. A prominent example is someone who has lost a job and they just connect that with they had a bad night's sleep. And so then from them that point on, every single time they're having difficulty with their sleep, they're always worried about losing their job. And so for some more logically minded people, it can be helpful to just break it down into the math of it. And I literally assign math homework, which everyone's like, ugh, homework. But you know, we say, okay, let's look at how many times have you actually lost your job over how many sleepless nights have you had that you thought you should have lost your job? And the we'll even get to the point of I make them, you know, give it a percentage of certainty, like you're in the middle of your sleepless night and you feel like you're going to lose your job. How certain are you of it in your sleepless night? You think 100% I'm gonna lose my job tomorrow, 90%, 80%. And so then in doing this, it kind of forces them into this box to calculate the frequency of that. And then for most people, it ends up, you know, if I've had hundreds of thousands of sleepless nights, but I've only lost my job once, then the actual probability of them losing their job from this sleepless night tonight is less than one percent, you know, like far less than one percent. And and for some people that's helpful of like, okay, now that I I have this math, whenever I have this worry, I can remember, okay, the likelihood is actually very low that I'm going to, you know, lose my job. And another thing we have too is then um really in the Bible has had that long before neuroscience was talking about taking your thoughts captive and giving them to God. And so really, you know, taking that worry and saying, you know, like, okay, recognize that this is not logical. I'm still worried about this. And so as Christians, then we have God that we can, you know, give that to and to say, Lord, I'm worried about this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yeah, and and we a lot of us don't want to admit that because we're we think it's weak being weak, you know. But yeah, I rolled the caravan over on you and and uh flying the airplane a couple of times. I've been in some binds where it got pretty serious, and I just roll the caravan over. I not to be flippant, but yeah, father, our this landing that's coming in. We're we're we got real terrible crosswinds, and I roll the caravan over on you. You don't want me to land, you don't want me to crash. I know it's not my time to go yet, so let's get with it. I'm gonna survive it one way or another. I'll either get you to use the plane again or I won't.

Sleep Needs, Culture, And Comparison

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that does bring up a good point of when you're talking about it's not a weakness. And I think a lot of times, even just sleepiness or trying to get a good night's sleep in many areas of our culture is still seen as like a sign of weakness or sleep deprivation, and the inverse seems like a badge of honor. And that's that's something that I'm frequently having conversations around, especially in as a physician and speaking with other like healthcare professionals, um, so hospital environments and call schedules and things like that. There can be that um narrative or mindset that you know, oh, I I don't need that much sleep. When reality, you know, everyone is a little bit different. Like I might need nine hours, you might need, you know, six hours, someone else might need 11 hours, kind of a thing. And so So making sure that people understand that there are true differences. Um, and that, you know, like that would make sense. That would be really hard for me to empathize with someone who needs 11 hours of sleep when my whole life I have only needed six and a half hours of sleep and I feel fine.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yes. And yeah, and you get put on a schedule, you know, and we're and we're we're on so many tables, and this size person gets this, and this size person gets that. And you know, uh I'm thinking uh you're you're a bone structure's thick, so you need to weigh this, and you know, a lot of that stuff is is okay in some ways. It's okay logically or on a piece of paper, but it's not okay in real life. Yeah, you know, comparing yourself to others is not if you want to compare yourself to the chart to where you should be medically, that's not that's probably a healthy idea. But if you want to compare yourself to the chart to where you should be like Joe Blow, that's that's detrimental. That's detrimental.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

I was trying to think if I had any other things I failed to mention. Um if God loves, is got if God is love, and He is, then we trust Him and His Word, which is Jesus. The Holy Spirit gives us what we need to succeed, increase our faith and and walk in a Christian life. Don't you don't get A's and spirituality by performing. You get A's and spirituality by believing. And what you what you believe out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Yeah, and if you're if you're full of gun smoke and murder mysteries, well, that's probably what's gonna that's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Absolutely. And I I think that was something that was at the forefront of my mind while I was writing this book, is just taking into account the array of experiences that create barriers, even to like what you're talking about, of very traumatic things, PTSD and nightmares and stuff of that nature, and you start to feel a little bit of the weight of I can't fix this in 165 pages, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Oh, I did counseling back in my early years, and man, I just I wanted to tell them just have you ever thought of changing your name and relocating, you know, just people uh people that see themselves as a victim constantly see, you know, just it's hard for them to get out of that, it's difficult. It really takes a strong-willed person, and the fact that they're in that condition is they're not very strong-willed, don't have a foundation, I guess it would be a better word for it. When you were going to medical school, did you have trouble with this because of your hours?

Trust, Lament, And Gentle Progress

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Um, I oh, certainly during my medical education from about third, fourth year on for certain rotations, and yeah, sleep deprivation was the norm. And so it wasn't until I was several months out of my training period that I was like, oh wow, I actually kind of didn't realize how different I actually felt. And I was had a lot of anxiety, possibly depression or things of that nature, that it was such a slow decline, I didn't really notice it until you know I kind of came back above water, so to speak. Um, and and yeah, I think going back to what we were saying about the you know, different people and getting stuck in that like victimhood kind of mindset, I think it's I especially had that at the forefront of when I'm thinking about who I'm writing to, and um really just trying to have to come to a point of um, do I really believe that God cares for my sleep? Do I really believe that God cares for the the sleep of others? And um that it was a truth that you can know in your mind, but it does have to work down into your heart. And uh so many people might find themselves in a situation where you know I my whole life has been filled with things that it makes me really hard to trust in God because I have experienced X, Y, or Z, you know, kind of things. So so I I I do want to give space to to that to say uh some sometimes people's lived experiences, it makes it very difficult for them to see God as a truly loving father that uh he is. And so the if people find themselves in those nights where I I don't trust God or I I have doubts or things of that nature, I think the biggest thing I always want to tell people is like you can bring that to God. Like he's not gonna get angry at you for saying what you're what you're feeling or what your intentions are or what you see or things like that. Yeah, exactly. Because we have a whole book in the Psalms of and you know, tons of laments that you know go to those those depths and that hurt and that pain. And thank God that our stories don't stay there. And so I think many times in our modern kind of church time, you have some people who will do what's called spiritual bypassing, and they they won't sit with people because it's really uncomfortable to be in those grieving, difficult, hurting, pain moments. Um, and so you know, you know, this as a chaplain, I'm sure, is being able to meet people where they're at and to sit with them and not have to try and push them out of that grief or anything like that because of your own comfort. But on the flip side, and that's the balance is um helping them get up and to walk and to start taking those steps because we don't also want to stay in that same place, too. And so that is a you know very nuanced place for each person and where they're at and things of that nature. And so that's why I came back to a sleep habits journal, finally saying, or that was the big hump to realize, like, okay, I can't fix everyone's sleep. And I and the reading the Bible, again, it's not a medical textbook, it's not seeking to fix somebody's sleep. But what it is doing is that we can respond to sleeplessness in a unique way, and part of that in the Christian walk is in practicing trust. And so even though tonight I may feel like I don't trust God and in my heart, that doesn't mean that that's the way your heart is going to be every single day for the rest of your life. And the the spiritual walk is allowing the kingdom to transform my heart so that I do become a person who does trust. And I can't, I can't think my way to that. And so much of our heart we have to change our behaviors to train our heart and to let the Holy Spirit do that transformation in the heart that needs to happen. And so it's if I'm in a sleepless night and I, you know, want to connect with God, but I don't necessarily say I can trust God, you go as far as you can and you know, try to bring all of that feeling to God because God can settle that. And so, really, the whole point of the whole book is to help escort people to bring their sleepless night to God and to connect with Him and to be able to, you know, I can be the best sleep medicine doctor, but I'm not there with you in the night, and there God is always the one who is there with you.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Yes. When I counsel inmates in the prison, talk about a victim status, man, that changing that in inner image, and we can't change that. God can, but we can't. Well, we need to land this plane and rabbit. Have you got any special words or anything you'd like to leave us with? I've enjoyed this so much.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Yeah, I think one of the things I always come back to, and I can't get beyond that we have this beautiful picture of sleep in Christianity, is the fact that we worship a God who never grows weary, never needs to sleep, never grows tired, grows tired, and yet paradoxically has experienced and suffered sleeplessness in the incarnation of Jesus. And that with his life, death, and resurrection, and now us having the Holy Spirit can truly empathize with us. So that that that part I never that just causes me to have so much awe of thinking that God paradoxically understands exactly what I'm going through in my sleeplessness and the suffering and the isolation, yeah, and um can be a real source of comfort and joy. And I think I have heard for a long time that that makes sense, okay, that Jesus has experienced all my suffering and has taken his suffering into himself. Um, but then as I studied sleep specifically, to see these points very explicitly in the gospels of Jesus awake in the Garden of Gethsemane, and then to the point of you know the sweating blood, that and that that level of stress and going through that level of sleeplessness and and God choosing to not have to deal with any of that, but chose to enter creation in order to take that into himself. Like that's this beautiful picture of how much God does care for our sleep. And so I think that's the thing I'd want to leave people with is that God can be trusted, He um is near, He's always available to you in your sleepless night, um, and He's just waiting for you to reach out.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Well, I appreciate that. Yes, I've been in some pretty tough meetings and pretty tough counseling, but I've never sweated great drops of blood. Thank goodness. Oh, the Lord's been so good to us at the time. There's times when you don't see that, but overall, he's love, and love conquers everything, and we praise him for that. Well, Dr. Benjamin, we I enjoyed this so much, and we have to do it again, maybe put on a little more. I'll look at my emails and see if somebody if they want more, and I'll if so, I'll look you back up. But I really appreciated it.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Yeah, likewise, this is a great conversation.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

I appreciate it. Been nice knowing you. I'm gonna close with a word of prayer. Father, we just thank you and praise you for this obsession we got, that we learned a lot from it, that it's not a final solution or end solution, but it is a stepping stone to a higher solution, and that is getting more involved in your love and your compassion and your kindness. You are you are slow to anger, plenty of us in mercy and gracious, and for that we bless you and thank you, and we declare Jesus is Lord in Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

And if I might add, if anyone listening is interested in the book, you can just go to sleephabitsjournal.com and that will um get you to where you can buy it. Great, great. I'm sorry I didn't give you the opportunity to do that. No worries.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

All right. Well, you have a good rest of the day. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

You too.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Bye.