The Real Truth About Soulmates

In this honest and powerful episode, Matt and Joy unpack one of the most misunderstood topics in spirituality: soulmates.

They explore the questions so many of us quietly carry:

🌱 Is there really one person out there for me?
🌱 What’s the difference between a soulmate, a twin flame, and a trauma bond?
🌱 Am I grieving real love or just the fantasy of what could’ve been?
🌱 And how can I tell if the relationship I’m in is rooted in reality… or illusion?

This isn’t a conversation about love as a fairytale. It’s about what happens when we meet in truth, stand in our wholeness, and stop waiting for someone else to complete us.If you’ve ever questioned what real partnership looks like or wondered why the love you’re longing for still hasn’t arrived this episode will feel like clarity, comfort, and a mirror to your own truth.

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Transcript

Joy: You've done the mindset work, you've taken the courses you've meditated, journaled, and visualized the life you want. So why does the breakthrough still feel just out of reach? 

Matt: Welcome to the timing effect, a podcast for leaders, healers, and visionaries who are ready to stop circling and finally breakthrough 

Joy: through raw, honest, unfiltered conversations.

We pull back the curtain, not to hand you tips and tricks, but to reveal the deeper patterns and align strategies that unlock real momentum. 

Matt: These aren't temporary shifts. They're energetic recalibrations that ripple across your entire life from your relationships and purpose to your business, body and inner peace.

Joy: We are Joy and Matt Conn, and after guiding thousands through massive transformation, we know breakthroughs aren't about doing more. They're about aligning with what's already waiting for you. 

Matt: This is the space where clarity meets timing, where energy meets action and where everything finally starts to click.

Joy: This is the timing effect.

Matt: So this episode, I think will be particularly interesting, uh, because it's a topic that really ties into our connection and our bond. And of course I think as people listen, they're gonna really, really think, oh. I want to hear about this. Mm-hmm. Right. We hear the word soulmate. And just as a, a, a quick backstory, I remember many years ago when I, when I first kind of came into this field as a teacher and I put out a teaching on YouTube where I took the definitions of soulmate and twin flame that I heard about, and I flipped him around.

And I did it because I had been working with so many different people, singles who felt incomplete because they hadn't met their twin flame, uh, people who thought they knew their twin flame, but the other person's in such a state of resistance, they have to somehow get them to figure it out, come into the fifth dimension.

I'm your, I'm, I'm the one for you. And. I had worked with people, I'm sure you have two, who thought they've met the other half of their soul. Mm-hmm. And were putting up with very egregious, unconscious, abusive behavior. But they didn't want to leave the relationship because they thought this was the person that they had waited lifetimes to be with, and, and, and all these very.

Um, abusive experiences and painful experiences, codependent experiences that were decorated and spiritual ideas. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And so I saw a lot of people being taken advantage of, a lot of people being hurt and a lot of people being, um, really gaslit by their own codependency. And so it motivated me through a download from the universe to talk about soulmates and twin flames.

And I came out of this video. That I had no idea at the time was gonna be so widely discussed 

Joy: and debated, 

Matt: debated, controversial. I had people, I had people doing reaction videos. Mm-hmm. First of all, I didn't even know what a reaction video was. I had people looking to a camera and, um, praising me and cursing me, and it was.

One of the most surreal experiences because I was just really sharing what Spirit told me, and I just wanted to help people not be abused, manipulated, and hurt by their own codependency. I came out with this video and it was one of the videos that kind of helped bring my unique voice to the world.

Mm-hmm. And it's still a video. People discuss and debate, and then here you and I are married teaching together. And when we were discussing like things we would talk about on this podcast, this for me was like, well, you know, of course we could have to talk about what a soulmate is, what a soulmate isn't.

And so I just, I just want, I, I just thought this would be such an intriguing discussion and as I think about it, if I were to ask you what isn't a soulmate or what are the ideas people have of a soulmate that are, I. Maybe where we get off track from the beginning. 

Joy: Yeah. I think this is, I mean, this is such a juicy topic and it, you know, I remember when we were thinking about doing this topic, it was like, wow, we could come at that from so many different, uh, angles and perspectives.

Right. Because we've journeyed it. Right. Right. But for me, I think that looking at what a soulmate isn't, 

Matt: Hmm. Um. 

Joy: I think I, I thought I had the answer to that and then I realized, I realized that when we meet ourselves where we are, I think a soulmate is the person who comes in for the growth that we need.

Now, it's interesting because I wouldn't have said that before and I have a lot of nuance around that. Which you, you're aware of. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I look at. The type of person we've been in our journeys. So there was a version of me that once upon a time really loved drama, even though I'd say I didn't.

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: I would swear that I would just love to have a life free of drama, and yet I was living in a life full of drama. And I remember, 'cause as you were talking, I was thinking about the, the ones that I thought were the soulmate. Right, right. So I think there's a perception of what we think the soulmate is.

Right. Versus what it can truly be for us and if there really is a soulmate, what that could look like. So I'm really excited about this topic and this conversation as we sort of just unpack it live for those listening in. But I remember wanting, and 

Matt: by the way, those who are also. Deeply intrigued on YouTube watching this, 

Joy: right.

Matt: Engaged in watching half of my face. Connect with half of your face. 

Joy: I know. I love that very much. 

Matt: Yeah, it's different. 

Joy: I feel like we should switch sides one day so people can see the other side. I'm not convinced. This is my best side. 

Matt: I'm saving my best side for season two. 

Joy: Yes, season two. Let's flip. 

Matt: Yes, 

Joy: I think that'd be amazing, right?

Matt: Season two, the other side of their faces, 

Joy: turn the other cheek, as Jesus would say. Oh. 

Matt: Ladies and gentlemen. Ladies and gentlemen, I just, you just hit the line of the day. Turn the other cheek. 

Joy: Linda, you'd appreciate that. 

Matt: Season two, they turned the other cheek. Jesus approved. 

Joy: Alright. 

Matt: Okay. Back to the topic, soulmates.

Joy: So I remember wanting that person, wanting that one person that you thought. Would just love you no matter what, right? And you could be in your ridiculous drama. You could be in your pain. You wouldn't have to grow, you wouldn't have to mature you. Literally, everything would just be right with the world.

You'd meet this person and they would be that for you, right? All of a sudden, you'd be seen, you'd be heard, you'd be in relationship. You could relate to this person in a way, nobody else would understand you. And the challenge is you. You can meet people like that. And we've both met people like that. In our past, 

Matt: right?

Joy: And yet what we experience is an amplification of who we are and who we're ready to be. Right? And so the soulmate in that regard might just meet us where we are and amplify the drama we're experiencing. 

Matt: Hmm. 

Joy: So I think as we flip this, I wanna also flip it from that perspective that we think we are with our soulmate.

In those moments because the intensity of the drama, the intensity of the, um, attraction mm-hmm. And the energy between us or maybe the conversations we like to have, or maybe we just have shared drama. 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: Right. So we're in that experience of, oh, you totally get me. So you're the one, the challenge is, out of the 8 billion people here, there's a lot of us who've had trauma.

A lot of us that can get each other at that level. And if we're devoted to that level of drama, a lot of people really could be our soulmate. Hmm. Right. When we look at it from that perspective. 

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: So I think that the draw to that, it's probably a different word, and I think that's what you were doing when you were flipping it.

Right? Right. In that video, it's probably not a soulmate. We just think that it's, Hmm. So for me to understand what it's not, I kind of have to feel myself in that pain. Right. Of who I thought it was only to be devastated over and over and over again. Right, 

Matt: right. Well, it's funny 'cause in the video, and I love how you put all that, um, I love the, the setup of, of seeing it from that broader perspective.

So when I did the video, it was because people were talking about this thing called twin flame, where you know, there is someone that's the other half of my soul. Like for example, when we met, we had this instant merging and connecting and, and we instantly were like together in relationship. My experience.

Wasn't that you were the other half of my soul. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: You were the partner that met me in the wholeness that I was in, right? Mm-hmm. It wasn't like Matt Con only had half a soul, and then I met you and now I have a whole soul. 

Joy: Could you imagine? 

Matt: Right. Could you imagine? And so. The traditional understanding was that's what a twin flame is, the other half of your soul.

Mm-hmm. And then a soulmate is people are people that you attract to work out the stuff in preparation for meeting the soulmate. What I was flipping was twin flame is are the people that mirror the imbalances and the fires that you move through. Mm-hmm. To be whole in yourself. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And that soulmate is someone who's just maybe like a mirror of your wholeness that you can grow with.

So I love 

Joy: that. Helping you become whole, 

Matt: helping you become whole. Right. 

Joy: Not because of them. 

Matt: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I love that because then it becomes this big codependent thing. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Right. What, what, what I was interested in. What I started to see as I started to do this deeper work with people in couples and work with people in different communities, right?

People who are in the tantric community or the polyamory, all these different, wildly different ideas and schools of thought. What I became fascinated with was this egoic perspective shift that. When we spend so much time focusing on ourselves, saying, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? And then when our ego gets tired of playing that game with us as its toy, it goes to what's wrong with the world.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And it goes into that shift. So I was looking at this idea of there's the reality of a soulmate. Then there's the fantasy of a soulmate. And the idea with the fantasy of a soulmate is that we focus so much time on, I can't step forward in the world and pursue my passion until I'm the perfect idealized version of myself.

And then when I get bored of that game, I go into where is the perfect idealized other half for me? Mm-hmm. So for me, it's almost like the fantasy of soulmate is, is what we project onto another person as the perfection. That we need in order to fully be ourselves. Just like I can't live my passion or serve my purpose until I'm this perfect version of myself.

Mm-hmm. So for me, like the ver the, the fantasy of soulmate is I need to be the perfect me to find the perfect one so I can have this perfect idea of relationship that when I actually find the one I'm meant to be with. It does have this inherent perfection. Mm-hmm. But it's actually more of a naturalness.

It's more of an ease. Like when you and I met, we were excited to meet each other. We were very attracted to each other, but there was kind of an ease mm-hmm. To it all. There was kind of like, and it wasn't like when I saw you. It wasn't like a, oh my God, we've spent 10,000 lifetimes together. Finally we meet.

Mm-hmm. Right? Remember back in Laia, remember back in Atlantis, remember when we went to In-N-Out Burger on our first diet in Atlantis? Right. Remember that? That wasn't my experience. Mm-hmm. My experience was just, uh oh, this is ease. Familiar. This is right. 

Joy: It was already whole. 

Matt: It was already whole. My wholeness in your wholeness we're on a first date.

Yeah. From the moment we met. And so I think, you know, to me, the fantasy of a soulmate, I. Because twin flame is a term, doesn't really resonate with me personally. I don't think it resonates with you. Mm-hmm. I only look at the word soulmate. And also I think that people have an idea that there's one person you are meant to be with in your life and you have, you know, and, and that could also be a very fantasy driven idea.

Joy: Absolutely. 

Matt: Um, I will say that every relationship I had been in before meeting you. Was an opportunity for me to engage a fantasy and to help me move through a fantasy and that our relationship, when I call it a soulmate relationship, was a, was the first relationship I had ever had in reality. And so for me, the fantasy of soulmate is just the perfection I think I need in another person.

That I haven't found in myself. And the reality of a soulmate is the one I'm meant to be with. Once I'm willing to be in a relationship with reality. 

Joy: Hmm. 

Matt: That's how it strikes me. 

Joy: Yeah. There's so many things that are coming up as we're having this conversation. 'cause I'm thinking about, you know, in my family there are several sets of twins.

Hmm. And so I'm thinking about from the perspective of, I think there's, you know, these bigger, um. Questions at play with this entire thing. And so I love we're sort of diving into it. Yeah. Because as twins there is that sense sometimes that they feel like they've been, you know, set at, at birth they were in two, one Soul, two bodies.

Right. Right. And yet you see they're very distinct. They're very distinct individuals that have similarities. And of course they have a closeness. And they have a bond because they have cells that are shared. Right? Right. We know that now from quantum physics that there's this quantum entanglement. We have this energy where we're entangled.

Mm-hmm. Right. And so entanglement can create a familiarity that causes us to think that we're the same. 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: Right. So that happens with children and parents. It happens with. Um, siblings, it happens with, of course, twins. And there are these really interesting things happening that, I mean, I don't know all the answers to to that, but I can see where this comes from.

This idea that, wouldn't that be amazing? Remember being a child thinking it'd be amazing to be a twin. Like, what a cool experience. Right? And so I can see in the fantasy aspect of it, the fantasy of what it would be like to have that person that's just you, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: Right. That we just, I mean, how can you not understand yourself?

Right? And yet here we are in these bodies where we don't really understand ourselves. Right. So, but this fantasy idea is, um, really interesting to me. Mm-hmm. 'cause I think it leads to where I really feel we are 

Matt: right. 

Joy: Is grounded in a reality that doesn't exclude the incredible magic of our connection.

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: It's also grounded in a very clear mental connection and a physical connection. And so I think after, so I started off in fantasy. I Me too. And everyone else. 

Matt: And everyone else. 

Joy: And so I was looking for that one throughout high school through. You know, in my twenties looking for the one, and I'd already made so many mistakes way too early in life.

You know, I feel like 14. I thought, oh, this is the one, you're, this is the one, right? You're 14. But when as I, um, as my late twenties met someone who really felt like was the one mm, I didn't have that like twin soul or soulmate kind of idea around it. But there was this sense that, oh, you're my person.

Mm-hmm. Right. There was an instant knowing. Yeah. And it was, I mean, the moment we met, it was similar to the way that we met in that we came together in, in a single conversation. There was this, oh, we should be together. Right. So there, there was this, this understanding, but even with that, mm-hmm. You know, when I really go back and reflect on that relationship.

There were parts of our relationship that felt so unsettled and uncertain. Mm-hmm. There was a lot of things I, I didn't know. I didn't feel the ease that I feel with us. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: But I didn't know that was possible. 

Matt: Mm. 

Joy: So for me, it felt like it had all of those things. We had this strong connection. We wanted to grow together.

We even wanted to work together. I mean, this desire to run, he, he was a, worked in the construction field, he had a business, and I was gonna come in and help, help him run this business. 

Matt: Mm. 

Joy: And a few months into our relationship, we got engaged. It was very exciting. And shortly after that, we found out that he had terminal cancer.

Matt: Oh my goodness. 

Joy: And despite trying everything he was, it was a rapid form of cancer that within six months he passed away. So, you know, this is something you and I have talked about, right. But in that, it, it, it reveals so much of. I believed I was spending the rest of my life with this person, and I had an entire life built out what our wedding was gonna look like, what our life was gonna be like, maybe we would have kids together.

You know, I had this whole thing built in my mind and the universe said, that's not happening. And so while it feels tragic, and it definitely was a tragic experience, it was a trauma for me. But it also was the universe saying, but that's not the plan. That's not reality. That's not what's happening. And I knew right, very early on in our relationship.

And so I mean, if somebody's listening, and maybe it's, I mean, it's been a lot of years since then, I'm so grateful for that relationship and it took me 10 years to grieve it. Hmm. I think that in those 10 years I grieved, if I'm really honest. I grieved the fantasy of what I thought we would have together longer than I grieved the actual relationship I was in.

So that was a really, I think, you know, it was like these layers of grief. I grieved the relationship that I had started, that I wrote I for so long, held onto an idea of the relationship I thought was taken from me. Wow. I, I think that contributes to that fantasy of the idea of someone, the idea of a relationship can be project projected on anyone that we meet that has a close enough connection.

Sure. You know, I don't know if you'd agree with that, but that's the sense I have after that experience. 

Matt: Sure. I mean, you talked before about quantum entanglement, and I think quantum entanglement is, you can see yourself as an extension of another. Uh, because that's how we interpret resonance. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: But I think as human beings, we're still learning about the term resonance.

And so it's either I am one with someone, 

Joy: right. 

Matt: And we are extensions of each other's soul, or I am ghosting someone and running away from the fast possible. Right. So I think of course, in our human culture, we have such extremes. We know. Mm-hmm. Oneness and ghosting. Right. And so I think the midpoint is resonance.

Right. Degrees of resonance. But, but I, I 

Joy: love that you said that. 

Matt: I love, I love what you're sharing and you know, you started out in fantasy, I started out in fantasy. It's humbling when you realize how much of your life is spent in fantasy. What I was gonna say, just, uh, at, uh, to dovetail to the end of what you had said, and it's just a pondering I have.

Hmm. Like, I'm not gonna make this statement, like, here's a fact, but I just wonder. You know, you and I are always kind of workshopping philosophical ideas and then we develop our own theories from there. But I, I just wonder, so what I'm about to say is not like a definitive okay. But like, I wonder what percentage of grief is grieving the fantasy of something?

Versus the reality of something. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: I wonder if, as radical as it would sound, if the only thing that we're grieving is the fantasy around something, and I wonder if the reality of a connection is something that can't be grieved. And I wonder if that were true, how shocking that would be. As you say that I, and I run through my system and I think of all the things in my life I've grieved even I think of the grief of my parents.

My parents weren't a fantasy, but what they represented to me was mm, like, like the idea that my parents have been here in my life and have been my greatest supporters, and in some respects have been, you know, the greatest villains. Um, you know, and, and my greatest teachers and my greatest supporters, all these things, you know, wrapped up in so many complexities.

But my parents were always here to give me a certain level of support that made it easy and meaningful for me to really express myself confidently and. There's a part of me that says, I don't know how to tap into that part of me without them being here 

Joy: to 

Matt: cheer me on. So they were a reality of my life, but the meaning I gave their physical presence in my life was a fantasy.

And when I grieved the death of my parents, I can look back and say, I miss my parents. I loved them. On the surface, I would say, oh my God, I'm grieving, grieving the death of them. But, but I think if I really were honest, and again, I'm only sharing my experience. Mm-hmm. I think I'm grieving or I've grieved the fantasy, I built up about the reality of my connection with them.

And I think that that, that, I would say that that's true for me. That I have grieved the reality of connections. But I think that the deepest hurts that I've felt have been the death of my fantasy surrounding those people. 

Joy: I think this is a really fantas like fantastic conversation. Yeah. Because as you're saying that it's, you know, it's obvious there are complexities here, 

Matt: right?

Joy: But I think at as a whole. The reason that I grieved so long about the fantasy of the relationship is because I had more fantasy than I had time with him. 

Matt: Fascinating. 

Joy: Right? So there are some where you'll have a relationship where they maybe spent 50 years together, right? And then the relationship ended.

Maybe they had less fantasy about the future. And so it's more of a grief of the past. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. And I 

Joy: think that really goes to how we experience relationships. When they're, you know, like you and I have talked about this before, where they're transactional, right. And transactional just meaning I'm contributing something to a relationship and somebody else is contributing something to a relationship.

And it's about what we get from each other. Mm-hmm. Right? And so I remember, you know, being young, you know, pick the right partner and even, even business advice, they'll say, you know, your partner is the most important decision you'll make in your entire life. Absolutely. Especially related to what you'll succeed in in business.

And even that goes to. The, I think this transactional nature of past and future. What does this person mean to me for my past? And what does this person mean to me for my future? 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: And to go into a true soulmate relationship or what we experience. Right. I think there's an incredibly important nuance Yes.

To this conversation that helps frame what you just said right about that, because. In our relationship, we met and had this incredible synergy and resonance, but we also met someone that we could instantly feel, see, experience, reflect on, had a similar vision for the future, wanted the same things, more important than any of that, 

Matt: right?

Joy: Was that I was meeting someone who had the same level of devotion to something beyond us, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: So any relationship we created would be a relationship that was guided by a higher power, and in doing so, we would cont we would contribute to a container that contained us. Mm-hmm. But wasn't about one over the other.

Matt: I really love how you're putting that, um, something that I'm just thinking about as I talked about the grieving the fantasy. Mm-hmm. Is that. Even when I think of the death of my parents, then I want to kind of touch upon my, my relationship has, yeah, I think there's a lot here. There's a lot here to unpack.

I hope. Um, I can feel everyone really just listen riveted by this. I am for sure. So when I would think about the deaths in my life, my parents or past relationships, I would think about the past. I would think about moments of regret. I would think about moments. Of, oh, you know, when I was a kid and I think about my parents, that moment was really harsh.

But as an adult, I think back and I see it differently and I really see the goodness. Mm-hmm. In retrospect, we can often see things differently. What I've noticed is reflecting on the past is just as much of a fantasy as reflecting on the future. So it's almost like the, the past is a fantasy of, of nostalgia and the future is a fantasy about.

Potential. Right? And so if I think about my parents, I've only grieved the fantasy of the past or the fantasy of the future. I haven't really grieved the, the fan, the, the reality of who they were because they only existed to be in my fantasy of them, 

Joy: right? 

Matt: Um, when I look at relationships, my relationships.

And this will be my, my personal contribution to, to what we were talking about in, in, um, what is a soulmate in reality. Mm-hmm. My relationships were, I had a fantasy of the kind of relationship I wanted to be in. I wanted to meet my wife since I was about 12 years old, and I wanted to be in the ideal relationship.

Looking back, I wanted to meet the one. So early, you know, some people would hear that and go, oh my God, he was so spiritually evolved as a kid. The truth was I wanted to meet the perfect person so that I could quickly figure out who I could be with that wouldn't leave me, that I wouldn't, I wouldn't risk rejection and I could escape the heartache of how lonely I felt and separate I felt from the Divine when I was a kid and I was taking all of my.

All of my unrequited love and conflict with my mom and projecting them onto a different young lady, right? And mo most relationships I was in nearly all relationships. I was in nearly, I would say all the relationships I've ever been in until I met you was. I felt like I created the storyline of a fantasy that I didn't know was a fantasy, and I felt like a casting director trying to cast the right actress into that role with me and live out this fantasy of a movie I created for myself and I, I look back and I see that I was bringing my fantasy.

Hmm. And it was going on dates with someone else's fantasy and they were trying to see, can I play the role of their fantasy character? Well, can you play the fantasy in my leading lady? And can our fantasies negotiate a way for both of us to escape the present moment and be in this fantasy that we've created and all my fantasies or all my relationships, when I say that.

I think we're designed for me and the other person to walk each other or accompany each other in the direction of reality. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And I think that the, the instant chemistry I felt and the friction I felt in partnerships was a way for both of us to try to say, how close can we get to walking each other into reality versus the fantasy.

So I say all that to say. You were the first relationship. Where I was fully rooted in reality before we met. When we met, it was my devotion to spirit, your devotion to spirit that connected. It was also my relationship in reality. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. In 

Matt: wholeness. And your relationship in reality that met. 

Joy: So 

Matt: it wasn't as if we had to walk each other out of a ven scene into reality.

We met in reality. And I, so I say all that because I, it helps me to see that what a soulmate relationship is in reality is it's the type of relationship you can attract once you are in reality. Right. A a lot of us will say, oh. Once I'm a, a New York Times bestselling author, then I'll have made it. Once I get my six pack abs back, then I'll put myself on Instagram.

Once I have an audience, then I'll speak to the camera on YouTube, right? We always have these caveats. Once something happens first, right, then I'm gonna show up. Once I have that perfect relationship, then I'll be happy. So I live my life in that way, like we all do. Um, and. It wasn't until, so I had always said to myself, once I have the ideal relationship, then I'll fully be happy.

I didn't know at the time that being happy meant a monogamous relationship with reality. 

Joy: Hmm. 

Matt: I had lived my life in a monogamous relationship with fantasy. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: So when we met, I was in a full-time relationship with reality and that was of course the, the perfect me. To meet and be with the perfect you.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And what I discovered, if I look at my past versus our relationship, we have a relationship that is equally romantic as it is comfortable. I've had comfortable relationships that weren't romantic, and I had romantic relationships that weren't comfortable, and they all took place in my fantasy. So what I, what I think is that.

People took time to come into reality, come into the present moment, come into a relationship of self-love to enter into a relationship of wholeness within themselves. That's the space where then they can meet someone who can mirror that as a divine counterpart or a soulmate. That we're not gonna find the soulmate relationship if we're projecting fantasy onto people or if we're trying to turn someone into a different version of themselves.

And again, that that really helped me to understand. And without getting too esoteric, what a soulmate relationship really is. A soulmate relationship are the people that we grow and evolve with and we, and we. Celebrate and share in our highest spiritual potential as a reflection of being fully rooted in reality.

Joy: Absolutely. And, and I think then that just extends to part of reality is there is a known and unknown aspect to it, right? There's the physical world we see, which is reality, and there is the reality that there is something that moves through us or is higher than us, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: However we experience that there is.

Something, we didn't just arrive out of nowhere. Something happened. Right. Something continues to happen. Mm-hmm. And as we go on that journey to open ourselves up to whatever that is, we know that, right? We, we experience it. We don't just learn about it or read about it. And so I think that, you know, I love, as you're bringing this definition together, it makes so much sense as to what you and I have talked about so many times, what's different.

And I think that. We wouldn't have had to meet in this place where we had all of this together, but we did. And so it allowed us to really look at it and reflect that it, it's not just self-love. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: That's part of it. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: Right. It's the grounded in reality, willing to love myself, willing, you know, all of these aspects of the journey that bring us to that wholeness.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: You know, we've taken those steps. But if you're in a relationship now where someone wants to do that. Where they're like, yes, I wanna be grounded. I wanna be open to something more. I want to go on the journey of loving myself and not needing, you know that from each other, then you can birth this beautiful soulmate container.

Mm-hmm. This, you can choose to relate to your partner as if they are a soulmate. 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: Right. We can choose to have that experience if both people are all in. Right. And if both people aren't all in. Then that container's not possible. Right. It becomes something elusive that we chase, that becomes, I need something from you.

And then it brings us back to the illusion. Mm-hmm. I have the illusion of a partner that could choose it one day. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: Who could be there with me one day who just might one day wake up to the desire to have the soulmate relationship with me. And that's an investment in fantasy, wouldn't you say? 

Matt: I would totally agree.

I was, was coming to me was. A soulmate isn't when two human beings attempt to be spiritual together. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: A soulmate is when two spiritual beings commune and enjoy being human together. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And so for us, we have this beautiful romantic connection that celebrates our mutual communion with the divine.

Mm. And I think some people are in relationships that may be started from a place of fantasy, and they're trying to figure out how can I get my partner to be more spiritual? Or how can I get them to be more in, you know, as if if human beings do more spiritual things together, it's gonna change the relationship.

But, but really when spiritual beings come together and find an affinity of being human together and, and, and when, when the connection. As you said is about our mutual communion with the divine together. Mm-hmm. Right? The love that we create and express through our mutual communion with the divine. I, I, I think that it becomes more of a complex subject matter.

And it becomes less of this kind of is the person I'm with, my soulmate, right? The question is, do I live more in reality than I do in fantasy and do I have a personal communion with the divine? And what is the relationship with divinity that me and this person share together? 

Joy: And something else that you and I have talked about a lot and you know, as we've worked with other people is I think it boils down to the kind of journey you're on.

Less so than who necessarily, who is this person in my life? Mm-hmm. Are they a soulmate? Right. Well, what kind of journey are you on? And just to go beyond what you were just saying. Sure. And to add this nuance of whatever that soulmate was before that pulled me to wanna be whole and grounded and in reality.

Right. Whoever those people were. My fiance who died and you know, whoever, the previous relationships and the relationships after that, they all brought me to Wholeness, right? They brought me to that place of I choose to be in reality, and I think that's such an important, relevant journey to be in partnership with people in that way.

Right. But to not get confused that, like you said, if I'm not necessarily in reality, I have a fantasy about someone. Sure. That's not a problem. It just lets me know what kind of journey I'm on. 

Matt: Absolutely. I'm on the journey 

Joy: of that, and now we came together and we didn't know in this, so we've taught, we didn't know that there was a journey beyond that.

Matt: Right, 

Joy: right. That there was. Now that we're not in a journey to be in reality. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: We're in a journey to do something new. Something together. Something that is what we feel like is our soul's work. Mm-hmm. Our, you know, our dharma some people call it. Right. So there's a, there's something that wants to be activated by us coming together.

And I think people are craving that. They sense that something that could be done with a partner in that way when you don't have the drama, which is why they want it to just fall away, away magically with a partner. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: But it takes coming into reality to be able to fulfill that. I think you can fulfill your life's work without someone.

Right. But I think there are moments when the universe says, but what if you did this together? Sure. Right. Because together in this world, as we come back together and we find connection and community and find these shared experiences, we can have, you know, I think that's the direction humanity's moving, is how do we work together more?

And so I think that it's allowing, as we've all grown so much. It's dropped us into a place where maybe more of us are stepping into this journey. Does that make sense? 

Matt: Well, it, it does make, it does make sense and what I see is, you know, from fantasy to reality and from reality to, I. Evolutionary. 

Joy: Yeah.

Matt: Like what we are, we, we met in reality, and then our, our connection is going into an evolutionary direction mm-hmm. Where you and I are on the cusp of doing some incredible things. We've talked, we, we've talked very mysteriously about a book. Yeah. This book we've written, which we will, um, continue to discuss mysteriously 

Joy: it will soon be in reality, soon in 

Matt: reality, uh, currently in your fantasy.

Um. In that book, you actually talk about not only the death of your fiance, but some radical spiritual experiences that happen to you as you process the death, which are, are, are, is a riveting chapter of, of many in this book. Mm-hmm. But, you know, you and I are, are, are taking on this evolutionary leap together.

Mm-hmm. And I think what's interesting is when people meet in reality, it's like they're. You know, their, their communion with divinity comes into relationship. Their hearts connect. Their minds align. And then it's almost like their life purposes amplify and go from reality to an evolutionary 

Joy: direction.

Matt: And, and I think that's what you and I really represent is this evolutionary shift in relationship. Also, just to discuss. Of course the play of opposites, right? If you spend your whole life codependently, thinking you're gonna only be complete when you meet that one person, then you shift to a spiritual perspective that says, oh, the soulmate is only within, I should need another person.

So I, what I want to add to this conversation and be a little bold in my language. Is to say that of all the things I could say about a soulmate relationship, in reality, a soulmate relationship is a person that I'm willing to risk losing, even for just one moment of being with him in reality. And when you and I met, I remember thinking, because I'd spent my whole life here, abandonment, um, you know.

Being left and, and all these, all these things, you know, grief, until I realized I was only grieving my fantasy of, of things. But I remember when we met and I thought I would be willing to lose or have this connection dissolve. Within an instant, if I could just have a moment of what I am experiencing with you.

Joy: Yeah. I, I resonate so deeply and I'm, I'm sure people listening do too, because we already had that moment. The moment we met 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: Was the most real moment of our lives. There was a mo It was, it felt so surreal, and yet we were in this moment together where the rest of the world fell away. It 

Matt: did. 

Joy: It was you and me having a moment in reality that.

I don't know if either one of us knew we'd have again. Right, right. We met speaking, met at an event. It was almost in passing. It was kind of one of those moments where we just had this incredible moment in a moment. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And if we hadn't taken action on it, that moment was so incredible. Right. And we took action on it.

So we've had more moments, but we don't know how many we'll have. And I savor every single one. 

Matt: Oh, I do too. 

Joy: They are. They are in. Like if every day is a life, if every day is a lifetime, I get to be in reality with you every single day. Right? Every single day is enough. It's not enough, but it's enough. 

Matt: So God forbid the moment where if I were to perish in this moment, 

Joy: yeah, 

Matt: you would be left with what?

Joy: Hmm. I'd be left with the, uh, the celebration of the moments we've had. 

Matt: Yeah, 

Joy: for sure. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: You know, I've, I've thought deeply about this. 

Matt: Yeah. I'm sure 

Joy: I know it as I know you have to. 

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: But to be left with those moments, the real tangible moments that would dance in me as a celebration of a relationship.

Mm-hmm. But I also would seek relationship with you. Ongoing. Right. What would that relationship be now? 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: So I would see that differently than I've ever seen that in the past. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Where I don't know what our future will be. We don't spend a lot of time in fantasy about our future. You don't. Every once in a while we'll think about our vision because it's helpful.

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: But I'm here with you right now and I'm gonna be with you until whatever that moment is and vice versa. And I'll get to experience that and I think I'll just carry that. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: I don't know, it's, it's not something I want to think about, 

Matt: of course. 

Joy: Right. But I have more to celebrate in our time together.

And of course the grief would be there, but I would grieve that moment that I was having where I knew you could be here. I have to create a new way of understanding our relationship. I'd grief. The discomfort of the newness. 

Matt: Oh, I love how you said that. Yeah. I love how you said that. I would, I, I would, I I, if I were to imagine the same thing, I would of course, on the human level be, be sad to the shock and awe of unexpected change and, and to how differently it is to relate when, when forms change.

Mm-hmm. Right. Because it's, it's a dimensional shift. But, but I, I, I could feel in my heart I'd be left with an incredible amount of gratitude and, and a level of wholeness for, for the journey we've had. And I, and I think that, um, different from any other relationship I've ever known where the relationship felt like this fragile, 

Joy: this 

Matt: fragile object made of glass.

And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm wanting to embrace it, but I'm afraid of cracking it. I'm afraid of breaking it. I'm afraid of disturbing it. And, um, with us, it just feels like a thank you, a wholeness and like a bond that can't really leave me. 

Joy: Yeah, 

Matt: right. I think you said it. So eloquently before, and so it feels different.

Mm-hmm. So, so it's, it's kind of an interesting thing we met in reality. So what is the nature of grief when there's not a fantasy to, to grieve? And I think that that's an interesting, I guess in this moment, I don't necessarily have an answer, but I think it's just, uh, it, it's something incredible to contemplate.

'cause sometimes an aha is not the answer you hear. It's. Asking a different question. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: So, 

Joy: because I think I, it would definitely be sad. Of course. And while, you know, and I can, I can feel how, you know, you and I are processing this in a way that of course we're not going through that. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And I would grieve and my mind would fantasize about what we could have had.

Mm-hmm. I know that it would do that because Yeah, I think that's normal. Right. Yeah. My mind, 

Matt: my mind would certainly, um. I think the historical, uh, pattern of Matt Conn would, um, wonder if I caused it, what I did wrong. Um, let's go to the Akashic Records. Yeah, let's read the fine print. Um, but, but I say that jokingly.

Joy: I know 

Matt: too, to catch off. 

Joy: Well, no, I think it's a sensitive subject, right? Yeah. So we're in this, and, you know, our relationship is vulnerable, right? We, we are not, we're not afraid of it cracking. Right. And so we are very vulnerable. And in that, to talk about our deaths in such a, an open way and a reflective way of, we don't know.

We will cry, we will be sad. But ultimately we had such a great experience together. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: And I think some people un, you know, people who've been in that kind of relationship understand Yeah. That feeling. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: And that, and I think that can come even later because I, as you were saying that, it's like I can feel it.

I'm like reflecting as we're talking. And one of the things that just hit me in a new way is that even though I lived all that time and grieved all of that fantasy with Terry, I actually now have a different experience because I'm whole. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: I really feel the reality of the relationship I have with him now.

There is a reality, and that reality is he's on the other side. He's been a meaningful part of my experience. I bring him into my life in a way that is meaningful in my understanding life. And so I'm having a real relationship with him now, and it's the most real relationship we ever had. 

Matt: I love that.

Yeah. I'm so grateful for Terry. 

Joy: Yeah. And so anytime we can meet someone in reality, even if we couldn't do that in in their lifetime, 

Matt: right. 

Joy: We can do that. We can find our peace and ease with reality. And I think that's where the ease that you were talking about, I think that's where it comes from.

Absolutely. Because reality is where the ease is. 

Matt: So as, as we have this discussion about soulmate and as people are listening to this, and some people would, would, you know, maybe they're in between relationships, so they wanna attract that type of connection, or maybe they're. Getting ready to create space in the life or that relationship.

Mm-hmm. Or maybe there's the curiosity is, you know, what's a way that people can either determine whether they're in this type of relationship or open up space to attract this kind of relationship? And I asked this question, um. Not just for the takeaway aspect of what we're talking about. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: But, because interestingly enough, when I remember you and I actually were taken through a very similar, nearly identical process before we met each other that prepared each of us for each other.

Mm-hmm. And I wanted to share that. I know each of us had, we both had a different version of that. Before I met you, I was talking to my main guide Maleek, as I have for many years. Mm-hmm. And. I had been talking about what do I need to work on in myself to get myself vibrationally aligned to meet you mm-hmm.

And all these things. And it was more of a quest for perfection. And, um, I guess what I did with my time be before meeting you, but I got to a point where, um, I, I, I got to a point where I was talking to Melek and he had said, if you want to. If you're ready to meet the one you're meant to be with. Right. He said every birth is followed by a death.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: That's just the way the play of life occurs. A start leads to a finish, a birth leads to a death, and he says, an order for a birth of a relationship rooted in sovereignty and detachment to be created. You must be willing to purge and face the death of that relationship before it is birthed.

Mm-hmm. And so I was invited into a very deep process of purging the death of you as a way of being opened up to meeting you in sovereignty and detachment. So not to make you. The next space for me to project my fantasy upon. 

Joy: Mm. And 

Matt: as I processed this, what was interest interesting is as I'm purging the death of the woman, at that point I hadn't even met, didn't know it was you.

Mm-hmm. Couldn't have imagined you 'cause you are beyond the fantasy. Mm-hmm. When I'm, when I was purging the death of you, it was so deep and so gut wrenching and so visceral, because I realized all the time in my life that I spent looking for you was already the death and the grief. Like I I I was grieving in that moment with Melek, the death of the you before I met you.

And I realized that that death was also what it felt like to live my life without even, and in search of you. Mm-hmm. And so I went through this incredible death purged the loss of you. Mm-hmm. Opened up this space. Got to a place that said, you know, I don't even know if I, I want to be in a relationship right now.

I think I'm okay by myself. And then 10 minutes later I met you, but you were walked through a similar process. 

Joy: Yeah. You know, uh, discernment was really for me, the core lesson. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: And I. It, a lot of it came from my belief in soulmates. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: So my experience with, um, his name was Terry, was so profound and so deep, and as a 28-year-old, it was the deepest experience I'd ever had in my life.

Matt: Hmm. 

Joy: Right. So there was this incredible connection, and we know that in the mind when we have that kind of connection, it leaves such a mark and it can cause us to form ideas about reality. And for me, it formed the idea that for the next 15, 20 years, I believed that I had already met my soulmate. Oh, he'd come and gone.

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: And that wasn't there for me. So I was now going into the rest of my life with what? Being alone the rest of my life, or you know, the time I had, you know, I was a single mother, I thought, I don't wanna raise this child alone. And so I chose from what I thought I had to choose from. Hmm. Which sounds terrible, but in my mind it was, I'm going to just choose someone who will be there, who will help me take care of my kids, who will, you know, be a good person.

You know, I was looking for someone who was almost. Because why would I look for someone who was all that? Right? It just didn't occur to me. 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: So I had this, this distorted idea about reality. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And so to me, that was one of the things that started, I started to feel it's kind of dangerous, these, these ideas that we have because I shut myself off from love.

And so similarly, I had to go through a process with Jonah, who's my guide to go. It's time for you to open your heart, but in a way that will help you choose. Only the one 

Matt: mm 

Joy: who is there for you that you will be there for, that you will be completely yourself with. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: So you'll meet someone who is themselves.

You will be you. You will not compromise being who you are. You will not compromise the kind of man that that is. You will not compromise. And so I, I got taken on a journey of discernment that included going through a very difficult divorce from someone who I didn't love in that way. Because I didn't know that I could, I didn't know that was an option for me.

Right. So I had to go through this process of really healing my heart, that I wasn't left behind. I wasn't forgotten. I wasn't, you know, this is what I thought. I thought Terry left me here. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And I was forgotten. And I was gonna live the rest of my life to then open my heart up to no, there is someone who can meet me.

And if Terry really is the only one that can meet me and he's on the other side, well then I will be alone. I will be on my own and I will be whole, and I will live this life to the best that I can. But I'm open. And if there is someone here on this earth who can meet me in that space, then I choose them.

But I don't choose anybody else. 

Matt: Hmm. 

Joy: And so for me it was really recognizing that, and I think that's really common, these two aspects of, you know, being so in the discernment, right? That we're, we won't distract ourselves, 

Matt: right. 

Joy: But also not being caught up in the fantasy of who it should be. I think these things just, they, they are such a big part of the puzzle.

Right when that gets caught up in just, well, just love yourself, right? Yeah. Right. It makes me emotional. 

Matt: I, I love how deeply we continue to share in this beautiful dialogue. Yeah. Um, here's a funny question. Yeah. 

Joy: Was 

Matt: that worth the weight? 

Joy: Oh my gosh. You, you are, you're everything, 

Matt: you are worthing, you're worth the weight and you are worth the weight.

Joy: There is, there is no compromise. There's no compromise. And I think just sharing that with the world. We had a, we had a conversation recently, recently with a young friend of ours. She's the same age I was when, when Terry died, and I just wanna shout from the rooftops every time I talk to her about relationships, don't compromise, compromise, there is, this is the most important decision you'll make.

Matt: And I say, thank God I didn't meet you. In the younger years when I focused on it as a fantasy. Yeah. Because who I took the time or who life gave me the time to be was the gift I, I, I want you to have. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Even though if we had met when we were younger, we would've had 30 kids, 

Joy: easily, 

Matt: easily 30 kids. 

Joy: So was I worth the grief?

Matt: Uh, you were worth every drop of. Sadness every tear, and I would grieve all over again a hundred times over. Me too, for the chance to know and be your husband 

Joy: over and over again. I love you. I love you. 

Matt: So as we leave people in this incredible container of soulmate energy. What are the parting words that you would share to kind of encapsulate this beautifully sacred moment?

Joy: I would say that the one that you choose to be with is worth the journey, and you are the journey, and you are worth every moment of that path to become that one with them. 

Matt: I love that. I would say that being in a monogamous relationship with reality prepares you to fathom the beauty of your person, prepares you to fathom the journey that you'll be on with your person, and it allows you to be able to develop the self-worth to receive them, and to know the level of love that life.

Is preparing you to discover and, and life in its infinite grace is not gonna allow you to, to settle. And that the only thing that can really prepare us to handle the depth of love coming our way is to be fully rooted in our relationship with the reality, because it took me being fully in reality to be able to be the man that is so proud to be your husband and have mm-hmm.

The most incredible wife. 

Joy: Hmm. And the most incredible husband. Oh, 

Matt: you are?

Joy: Yeah. Great episode. Great episode.