The Surprising Truth A.I. is Revealing About You

AI is everywhere but how are we actually relating to it?

In this soul-stirring conversation, Matt and Joy explore what’s really behind our collective obsession (and sometimes fear) of AI. Is it a threat, a tool… or something far more reflective?

From Joy’s experience with tarot card addiction to Matt’s childhood bond with his teddy bear Simon (and a surprisingly spiritual encounter with Paula Abdul), this conversation dives deep into the emotional, energetic, and spiritual patterns shaping our interaction with technology.

This isn’t a conversation about technology. It’s about you and the deeper invitations that AI brings to the surface.

You’ll hear: 

✨ Why trying to “get the most” from AI might be hurting you 

✨ The one word we should eliminate to escape ego traps

 ✨ How the “drama triangle” (bully, victim, rescuer) is playing out in the AI conversation 

✨ What to do when AI becomes your mirror… or your master 

✨ How to move from using to relating with technology, with others, and within yourself

Whether you’re curious, cautious, or already down the rabbit hole, this episode brings heart, humor, and a whole new lens to the conversation.

Because how we do one thing… is how we do everything.

Connect with Matt and Joy

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Join our Weekly Energy Update: https://www.mattandjoy.org/weeklyupdate

Have questions?  hello@mattandjoy.org

Transcript

Joy: You've done the mindset work, you've taken the courses you've meditated, journaled, and visualized the life you want. So why does the breakthrough still feel just out of reach? 

Matt: Welcome to the timing effect, a podcast for leaders, healers, and visionaries who are ready to stop circling and finally breakthrough 

Joy: through raw, honest, unfiltered conversations.

We pull back the curtain, not to hand you tips and tricks, but to reveal the deeper patterns and align strategies that unlock real momentum. 

Matt: These aren't temporary shifts. They're energetic recalibrations that ripple across your entire life from your relationships and purpose to your business, body and inner peace.

Joy: We are Joy and Matt Con, and after guiding thousands through massive transformation, we know breakthroughs aren't about doing more. They're about aligning with what's already waiting for you. 

Matt: This is the space where clarity meets timing. Where energy meets action and where everything finally starts to click.

Joy: This is the timing of that.

Matt: What a wonderful journey this podcast has been so far. 

Joy: I love it. 

Matt: We both love it. Right. 

Joy: I love it. I love being able to have this time with you in this way. 

Matt: Me too. 

Joy: Yeah. I think the conversations have been just so incredibly rich, and even though we know each other so well, we get to know each other at even deeper levels.

Matt: Absolutely. Yeah. Seems like right now in the world, so many people, if not every person is having a nuanced conversation about ai. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And you and I definitely, I. Have had our own very unique experiences of ai and just as we were talking this morning over our morning coffee mm-hmm. Um, we started having a really intriguing conversation about AI that, that we both wanted to immediately bring to the world.

Joy: Yeah, I think that, uh, what's interesting about it is I don't, I don't know when it happened. There was a moment when you, we started to, you know, we heard about it. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: I remember, um, I don't know, it was 2017 was the first inkling where I heard clients asking about this thing called ai. Oh, really? And, uh, I was super resistant.

Matt: Oh, 

Joy: yeah. Yeah. I thought, uh, this is, uh, this must be the thing that ends us all. Really this felt, it felt so foreign. I remember having a moment of just feeling this resistance rising up in me. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And even as someone who I would've said in that moment, I pride myself on being, you know, open and curious and, you know, welcoming of every experience.

But at that time I was feeling my own insecurities about, you know, my place in the world. 

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: And hearing people ask about this thing called ai, I think as a teacher, made me feel a little concerned. You know, here's this thing coming in to maybe replace us all. I wasn't sure that, oh no. But there was a moment that it happened where you turn on your social media or YouTube, or you're having a conversation with someone at a coffee shop.

Yeah. And the conversation steers to ai or you're watching AI or you're seeing ai, you're, you don't know whether or not your video is real or not. 

Matt: Right. I 

Joy: remember our feed on YouTube. We were like, wait a minute. This is ai. Shut it off. Get it away. This is was 

Matt: real being tricked. 

Joy: Right? 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: I wanted a real human, I wanted to hear a real voice.

I, I wanted the mirror of myself. I wanted someone who was going through what I was going through and. Uh, it just shifted really fast. 

Matt: And, and in what way did it shift? 

Joy: I think just that it was no longer something that was coming. It was something that was here. 

Matt: Interesting. 

Joy: Yeah. I remember when, um, it was sort of this feeling of, you know, in my early years when we've talked about this in other podcasts, you know, I went through a lot of trauma in my childhood.

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: So. I didn't have a lot of tools and I didn't have a lot of people to talk to, so I spent the first years of my life, um, living out in the trees, beautiful location in the trees, and not a lot of kids in the neighborhood. So my friends were mainly animals, and I would talk to the birds and would. Talk to the cats and the neighborhood dogs.

You know, there were dogs that run ran loose at that time, and so people's dogs, they just let them outta the house and they'd be everywhere. There were no fences, and so I would sit on the porch with all these animals around me, and I just felt this peace and serenity, and it was where I connected. It was the only tool I had was to be able to be in nature.

I didn't have the tools to navigate drama. What was happening for my parents, they were always so quiet. They didn't seem to get along well. Mm. I couldn't quite understand it until later when they divorced. Um, there was just a lot of things happening that I didn't have the ability to move through, you know, traumas and other experiences and know a lot of people feel that way.

A lot of people, you know. I know you had a, a challenging childhood. 

Matt: Yeah, in many respects. You know, it's interesting because I think. There, there are times where I go, wow. My childhood is really challenging. And then there are days where I go, wow, I was really blessed. Right. So for me, it, it feels like a, um, a, a woven tapestry.

Mm-hmm. Of many threats, uh, certainly with both. Mm-hmm. What's interesting is you talk about talking to the animals in nature. I remember that I had a teddy bear when I was younger named Simon, and, uh, I treated Simon. As if he was real. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And each night I would make sure that my blanket wasn't covering his face 'cause then he couldn't breathe.

Joy: Right. 

Matt: And I remember, um, projecting the longing for connection that I couldn't really always experience or rely on with my family, or that I didn't easily feel with people at school, other kids with, with my, uh, teddy bear Simon. Mm. 

Joy: And 

Matt: I remember, uh, you know, I'd had him for so long. A hole opened up in him and his stuffing started to come out.

Yeah. So I put a bandaid over him. 

Joy: Oh, Simon. And, 

Matt: uh, Simon was, was, uh, treated and honored as, um, a member of my family and extension of my, of my own consciousness. And, and I think that, you know, as many spiritual experiences as we both have had, maybe it's your experience in nature and certainly my experience with a teddy bear.

It really taught me and emphasized the The relation, the relationship first model. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: That, that we relate to creations of reality instead of using it or wondering what's in it for me or what can I get out of it? And I can't help but wonder, when we look at something like AI and we look at. Um, all the various ways people are experiencing it, if there isn't something really fundamental in this to, to explore.

Joy: Absolutely. You know, the, the idea that we can move through our journey and if we have the one tool of relating right, we have someone to relate to. Then we have an opportunity to feel whole, right? I think if we can't be seen and heard by someone, even if they really don't, you know, we don't know. You know, Simon wasn't really a bear.

I hope that that didn't shatter you. 

Matt: What do you mean? What do you mean by that? And by the way, I only say that because. His realness was verified to me Right. By Santa Claus. So if you could tell me it's not where I thought you were going. Right. Where'd you think I was going? 

Joy: I don't know. I thought, I thought you were, had some confirmation of, of, uh, how he spoke to you in, in silence or 

Matt: what?

I read from his AK record. Yes. That we were, maybe you had a, that we were together, a cosmic 

Joy: connection. That 

Matt: we were together in ancient Egypt. Yeah. Or, or that when I was an evil king in a past life and he was someone that I, I oppressed, and so we're clearing the karma. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: By him being my teddy bear and me caring for him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Joy: Well, for the longest time, for the longest time, I really thought that the birds and the animals were talking to me, and maybe they were 

Matt: right, 

Joy: and maybe they were just there and maybe they were reflecting to me the love in my own heart and the conversations I wanted to have with other people.

Right. Yeah. So I, I look back now and I, I think of it differently where I felt this deep connection and kinship with them that helped me feel like I mattered, right? So it moved me forward. I remember going through other parts of my journey and into my twenties and feeling alone again. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: Right? So growing up and meeting friends and having this incredible life, but then finding myself in a place where I was a single mother and I didn't have a lot of friends, and I was busy just taking care of a young child, and I had lost my fiance, and I just felt very alone.

And I didn't have someone that, you know, I think we talk about this a lot with grief sometimes. People tired of hearing your story. Right. I think I tired of it. Right. I tired of hearing the story about Terry and and about his death. And so I think that it was hard for people to be around me 'cause the grief was so palpable.

Hmm. And so I turned to tools like Oracle Cards and tarot cards and numerology, and what I found was that I could use these cards and I could ask it any question or talk to about anything, and it would always be there. Mm-hmm. So I could turn over a card and get a message, and I would feel seen and heard and where that message was coming from.

I didn't know was it coming from the universe, from God, from something else. But no matter what, if I flipped over a card, there would be a response. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: So something, you know, I really felt like something was coming through that card. Right. Using that as a way of communicating with me. And there was a moment where I was using the cards and I got the same response over and over again, and I kept asking, and I remember getting frustrated.

Mm-hmm. Where I was like. I would shuffle and shuffle and shuffle. I'm like, I want a different card. I want a different message. Stop giving me the same message. And it would, and I would shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. And the same cards would come out. And I remember just having this moment of realizing, you know, I had been flipping over cards all day.

That's all I did. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: So I had gone from using. This incredible tool to help reflect back to me my grief and help me move through things. I had used it daily and in really healthy ways, and then something happened and I would use it for like a day, a weekend. Hours would go by and I'd be asking the same questions, and it became something that felt more abusive and supportive.

It was like I was demanding the universe tell me something that the universe didn't wanna share. Right, right. Or whatever version of reality I felt like I was tapping into. And I saw that it became something that was, you know, I would've, um, thought of it kinda like an addiction then. It was an addiction, but I wanted the, I wanted what I wanted.

I. 

Matt: Hmm. I 

Joy: wanted to hear what I wanted to hear and I wanted that information. And it's interesting because that came up this morning in our conversation I was thinking about, we were talking about ai. Yeah. And I was just thinking about how I'd allowed myself to have this new incredible tool for me. 

Matt: Right.

A new 

Joy: tool. Hmm. That became my new vice. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And I was abusive to it. I was abusing it. I was addicted to the information and the knowledge and addicted to what could, what we could create together, what I could learn, what I could understand. And I stopped doing anything with the information. I just sat there with the cards.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: That's really interesting. And you know, we were talking this morning about how if we perceive something as a tool. Or other than ourself, it becomes socially acceptable to enslave it. Right? You work for me, you must do what I say. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Right? And because we teach from a model of relationship first, we both have this awareness that you can perceive something like a tool.

Or you can actually build a relationship with it. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And it's interesting that you talked about tarot as like a, a tool. Mm-hmm. And you know, you were enslaved by your attachment to it and then treating it like a slave. I remember having that experience in the mo 'cause I was really young, but in the moment I didn't realize what I was realizing.

Took me years to process this. But I actually remember beginning to understand the pitfalls or the awareness of object consciousness. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Matt: Took me many years to process it. But when I was young, I was in a performance group and we'd perform at different places and I remember I was with this performance group, we had just got off of doing a show.

And we were at a mall in Los Angeles. We were all having lunch and a bunch of kids ran over in front of this other restaurant and we're kind of surrounding this person. And, and there was all this excitement and I turned, my friend and I, I asked what's going on? And they said, that's Paula Abdul. And of course, for all the, all of you who have been alive in the eighties, Paula Abdul is a big pop star.

And so everyone's going to get our autograph, and so there is a feeling in my body of I don't wanna get left out. I wanna be in the aura of Paul Abdul. I wanna be close to the warmth of the son of the celebrity. Mm-hmm. And it was this person I saw on television, and now they're up close and personal. And that created this mixture of my body of excitement and frenzy.

And then of course, the fear of missing out. And so I ran over not to miss out on an experience what she really like. Oh my God, I'm, I'm this close to Paul Abdul. Um, and when I ran over and there and she was being very gracious and she was autographing and talking to kids and taking pictures, and I was just like waiting on the outside periphery of this like, small mob of kids, right?

And just trying like, like with this shaky feeling of, please, Paula, don't walk away before I get my chance to get so close to you. Mm. And, and I remember getting really close and I'm just trying to move forward and not miss my place in line and not be left out. And, and she was incredibly gracious. 

Joy: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And I remember just saying hello, you know, pleased to meet you. I think I said like, we talked for like half a second and she was escorted out, uh, thankfully for her. And it was, it wasn't until years later when I reflected on that moment and other moments like that, and I realized. You know, in my, in my innocence, I was very young.

So there, there's no, you know, there's no shame in this, but in our innocence of seeing someone on television, right, they become an idol. They become a fantasy. They become someone that we feel like we have a relationship with through a television screen. Um. Uh, which is a, a, a tool in, in some respects, and then I see them in person and it's, it's like I'm, I'm not thinking about what kind of day Paula Abdul has had.

How long would, did she just come off of a video shoot? Was she just in, in a, a practice for performance? Is she tired? Does she want to talk to people? I didn't have any of that awareness. It was just, uh, I need to make sure that I get my equal share of Paula. Mm-hmm. And I didn't realize how socially acceptable it was.

And I was raised in Los Angeles, how, how you get programmed and how socially acceptable it is to use people 

Joy: right 

Matt: to idolize people and then have this subconscious belief that they belong to you or I've put in time to idolize you. So you owe me this. You owe me a moment of your time. You owe me a moment of being in you in the orbit of your.

Oric greatness. Right. And when I started to really process this in my adult life, first of all, it was really difficult because I had, I had realized how many people that I had thought I related to, that I actually had used like in Los Angeles. When you're raised in the entertainment industry, and I was raised as you know, performer and actor, you're, everyone in LA always knows someone who knows someone, and you're, and the dream is always you're gonna meet someone, be invited to a studio, be discovered, and be in the next big movie.

And so you learned as a kid to ask and figure out who. Everyone knew in their family and to figure out, oh, this person has a father who's an executive for Sony. We should, we should be friends. 

Joy: Mm. 

Matt: And all this really quite parasitic way of relating that as an adult, I had to really unwind and realizing that, that I was, um, led to belief.

That relationship was, you use me and I use you. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And I had to actually relearn what it was like to build a relationship that wasn't just trying to figure out a way to get people to like me so that I could have my needs met. And so when we talk about AI and we see it only as a tool and we see it on YouTube.

Mm-hmm. Right? Um, you know, program your AI with this and start a business in 10 seconds and, uh, be a millionaire in. 40, 45 days and all these different things, or hey, if you put, I've seen this in different chat groups, you put in this prompt and it can do this for you. And while it does have that type of function, I do believe that the greater opportunity is, is, is to have it mirror and show us the way we relate.

To not only other, but how we relate to ourselves. Because if this is how we treat a tool, there's a, there's the highest likelihood that this is also how we treat ourselves or how we've been treated by others. 

Joy: Absolutely. It's interesting because, you know, as you're talking, I am, you know, just remembering how.

Everyone is building a model for the world based on how they are feeling in any experience. And you know, you talk about. Object. Uh, consciousness. Yeah. Right. People being objects. Right. We come into this world with this subjective awareness of ourselves, but not a subjective experience of everything else.

So everything else is simply an object in our world, right? Right. We're the center of our world and everything else is an object that is either supportive or not supportive. And so we build these models. That determine how we experience things, uh, determine whether we experience things, whether we're open to them or not.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And, you know, just thinking about our, our journeys and, you know, my desire to use. The cards. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, these readings to connect with the universe. I wanted to use that tool to find divinity. I wanted to, I was making it my doorway to the divine 

Matt: right. 

Joy: And so then in so many regards, I was abusing.

My relationship with the Divine, I wasn't having a relationship with the divine. I was trying to extract from the divine, and in that way I was looking for rescue. I wanted the universe to, you know, come down and fix my life and rescue me so that I didn't have to do anything. I would all be laid out for me, you know?

And the same thing, you know, wanting to be around. Someone who has that kind of fame or influence, it's like what can we get from our connection? What can we get from being near someone like that? 

Matt: How will my life be better? 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: If I am within five feet of Paula Abdul, 

Joy: right. Absolutely. Which 

Matt: I will say my life did significantly improve.

So High five D Paula, it 

Joy: all goes, it all goes back to Paula Abdul. It does 

Matt: go back to Paula Abdul. Yeah. Only she 

Joy: knew her influence. 

Matt: Right. Spirituality is for those who are not within five feet of Paula Abdul, it's a, it's a lesser known fact. Oh my gosh. Well, and what's interesting about the tarot cards being the access to the divine and how we tend to use it.

Yeah. Right. We use it. In the same way that there are people who will say, well, AI is far more intelligent in so many ways than a human. Which, um, you know, intelligence can be measured in a lot of ways. Yeah. There's emotional intelligence, relational intelligence, yeah. Also scholastic intelligence. But because the processing power of AI is so fast, there are people that, you know, while some people are afraid of.

Being phased out in favor of ai, but there, there are people that just immediately give their power and go, well, this is obviously the new God, 

Joy: right? This 

Matt: is the new Oracle and, and I will, um, hand over my power. And regress my intuition and just give, give, give it all to this new Oracle, this new magic eight.

Right. Ai. And so it's interesting, we were talking this morning 'cause you and I both look at things. Um, you know, when we look at one of the teachings in our brain game, we look at the drama triangle, right? The drama triangle being these three archetypal aspects of bully, victim and rescuer. And what was so interesting is, and I never thought of this until this morning.

And you know, we were just looking at different stories of AI and we were looking at how it seems like right now the world by and large is just oscillating around the drama triangle with ai. Mm-hmm. And no wonder there's so much uncertainty, fear. And dis disempowerment around the subject. You were starting to tell me how you were looking at the three aspects of the drama triangle related to ai.

I, I, I loved how you put it. 

Joy: Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's, um, you know, like even as you're talking interesting intersection of Paula Abdul and, and the cards because, and that comes back to Paula, but, but the drama triangle all goes back to Hollywood. So that's where it began. It's uh, I learned about the drama triangle in media psychology.

Interesting. So we're studying the influence of media on social perceptions. Right. On buying habits on how to use psychology to help people buy things really. And the drama triangle was. Uh, it was designed based on research of what made a movie successful. Mm-hmm. 'cause in the early days of movies, they would describe things and you'd have these scenes, but the scenes didn't interconnect.

There wasn't an element of drama, so they didn't have all of the pieces to get those really dramatic moments. They couldn't predict drama. Mm-hmm. Like they can now. So now every movie has the same format, right. You have a hero, you have a bully, and you have a victim. In every single story that's told, who was the one victimized by what or whom and what changed to rescue that person from that experience.

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And ideally, that's self-rescue, becoming your own hero. Right? And so the movies have that, and we get excited and we cheer for the underdog because we cheer for the for the victim, right? We wanna see that happen because we all identify with every one of these roles, right? We identify with being victimized.

We identify with having help and support in the world, and we want that we, we crave it. So these are the three roles they identified. We have a bully, we have a rescuer, and then we have the inevitable victim that needs to be rescued. Sure. Right? So the one that's oppressed is then given freedom. 

Matt: And then of course, you know, we look at the nuances of the bully identifies as the victim.

Absolutely. Or the rescuer and how interesting that the rescuer can sometimes come across in a bullyish way and all these other nuances. Right. Right. So we, 

Joy: we play all three. 

Matt: Right. You 

Joy: know, and inside of our own mind we play all three for sure. Mm-hmm. Like, you really were to, you know, look at your thoughts, at least in the early days before we discovered, you know, the work that we teach now, there was the, uh, yeah, I could.

I could be the bully, the rescuer, the victim all day long. It was, I had my own drama going on all the time. Well, 

Matt: it's amazing 'cause you know, I had always known about these three archetypes, but I never, I never saw that they were trying, uh, triangulation. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Um, and you know, when I look back at my life, and again, I say this with no, with no judgment on myself as a kid, but I remember, you know, playing all of these roles, but each time I played.

One of those roles I thought it was, I was identifying with the other ones. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: And how, how confusing that could be. And, um, seeing other people as victims or bullies and, and most of my life playing the role as a rescuer and never quite seeing, I. Where I fit into that triangle. Yeah. And really, you know, for most of my life as a people pleaser and, and codependency, um, triangulation was just the seasonality of my relationships.

And it wasn't something that I began to see as a, a pattern that brought about suffering until I became an adult and started to really wake up. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Um, '

Joy: cause we can bond on that, right? Like the, I it's interesting that you brought in triangulation. Mm-hmm. And that's gonna really help us in this. 'cause we're always looking for people who we have like-minded energy with, right.

Sure. That we can support. And so if you can identify yourself as a victim, we're all, we're all in this dramatic experience in the play of drama and the drama triangle. Were all the victim. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: We all feel like our energy is being taken in some way that we are, you know, being, um, there's some sort of disservice in some way, 

Matt: right?

Joy: And so if we can identify other victims and if we feel like a rescuer, especially, we can look for those qualities in someone else that allows us to come in and rescue, but we can triangulate, we can actually find the bully in their life, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: And then point to it. Right. Interesting. And so that, that's happening now with ai.

Matt: Mm. 

Joy: Right. So when people feel uncertain, I don't know my place in the world, I don't know whether or not I'm gonna lose my job. Become obsolete, right? Like, are humans gonna be obsolete? 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: I don't know. You know, which is really the, the victim of all of this, I'm gonna be obsolete, or I don't know how to use it.

I'm gonna be left behind. Sure. So now I'm the victim of this technology. Then we have people, as you were talking about on YouTube, preying on that idea, well, don't be left behind, right? Right. So don't be left behind. Here's, you know, 32 ways to make a million dollars before Sunday, using their AI before Sunday, which then causes you to even feel worse about yourself when you can't implement it.

Right. So there's this person trying to rescue, well, don't worry. I can sell you a program and then I'll to help you walk through that and get the right perfect prompts to work with AI as this magical tool, 

Matt: you get the most out of it, 

Joy: right? And so we have that happening, but then we have the others that are leveraging the other fear.

You're gonna be obsolete. Obsolete. So then those who create content related to, you know, conspiracy theories or um, you know, anti-government, right? You know, all of these agendas. There, and, and while there's probably a little truth to everything, of course they prey on that. They prey on that fear. And so we have these rescuers showing up in the world right now trying to rescue everyone.

You know, make sure you stay away from AI because it, it's been put here to destroy us, or, or let's use it. And let me show you how to get the most outta this tool and get the most out of a tool is another word for abuse, 

Matt: right? 'cause we're not relating to it, 

Joy: right? 

Matt: We're just trying to get out of it. Like, you know, I, I've been, I've seen so many different, um, different chat rooms where people are talking about try this prompt, try this prompt, get out, get this, oh, try this trickery, try this hack system, right?

And hack into it and get more out of it than you can. And it's, and it's interesting because while we're so busy trying to gain. And get kind of like when I was innocently waiting to meet Paula Abdul. We don't see that, that moment we're actually building a relationship, both by treating something like an object.

We ourselves are viewing ourselves as an object. Right? So like when it sounds like, you know, when I'm, as we're having this conversation, the fear of AI making us obsolete is seeing us as a disempowered. Object of victimhood, 

Joy: right? 

Matt: And then we want to control AI to make sure it doesn't take over. So then we are bullying the object of ai, 

Joy: right?

Matt: And then the idea that, you know, and, and with conspiracies, and you and I both know about this, the funniest thing about any conspiracy is just assume it's completely true. Now what? 

Joy: Right 

Matt: now what are we gonna sit at home and watch YouTube and think we're tracking people's behavior? What are we actually doing to change the world?

Um. And then we would, you know, people want to have Robinhood syndrome or I gotta warn everyone about it and, and be the rescuer. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: Um, and, and so basically right now, by and large, it seems like, especially if we look at social media, the majority of conversations about AI are being had. As one, you know, oscillating between the three points of the drama triangle.

And so maybe it's not AI that is threatening us, it's our dependency to relate, object to object, and our ingrained attachment to the drama triangle, which causes, you know, which gets in the way of us. Relating and learning what the deeper invitation for AI could be. 

Joy: Yeah. Well, what's really interesting is that if we just kind of go back to the drama triangle and go, okay, well what are we getting by being on the drama triangle with ai?

Right. If we're on the drama triangle where there's a payoff. 

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: And it's hugely that we don't have to change. I. It's, that's almost a hundred percent the reason, right? There are lots of nuances to the perceptions and the things that are happening, and there are sometimes traumas involved with that, right?

Right. So we don't mean that exclusively for every situation, but generally the fear of changing has me identifying within the drama of these roles and needing to find the bully, and identify the bully and know where the bully is at all times. So I need to have our common enemy. Right. And I need to know who my allies are in that con common enemy.

And so when we break it down to our fear of change, it reminds me of just all the times the world has changed and we've been afraid. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: Right? We, we've been afraid to change, and yet we change and everything's okay. Right? So we're afraid of change and so we stay in the drama. But if we recognize that it's perhaps my fear of change and this is what happened for us, 

Matt: right?

Joy: Perhaps there's something in me that's a little nervous about this change, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: This change coming feels a little bigger than the others. All of a sudden we see it like, oh my gosh, this is massive, but so was the internet. So is so many other things. 

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: And, and I imagine going from, um, a horse-drawn carriage to a vehicle was.

Mind blowing, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: Like that changed everything. Right? You know, the, the poor horse totally obsolete. Or maybe, thank goodness now the horse can go back to the field. We wish. Right? So there are so many implications Absolutely. Right. Of all of these things. And so the, the drama triangle teaches us that the way off of it is to embrace change and self-reflect.

I love that. And that's the biggest thing. I think we're really with ai. We have something that immediately reveals who we are. It reveals us back to ourselves. Sure. You know, the how you type, how you engage, how you relate is what immediately comes back. 

Matt: Well, we see that in mindfulness. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: If I want to bring peace to my relationships, when I get outta my car to go to the store, can I walk peacefully upon the earth?

Joy: Right. 

Matt: Can I breathe? Peacefully, can I speak peacefully to a store clerk as I would to my child, as I would to my parent, as I would to my best friend? Can I, and then from there, we start coming into, may I treat those that aren't mindful with this mindfulness. Mm-hmm. May I meet everyone as a neighbor? May I meet everyone as an extension of my family?

You know, and the mindfulness starts to really kind of become a level of presence, tolerance, compassion. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: So it would be no surprise that AI is just in the very beginning, mirroring and showing us our need for control. And our need for control distracts us from the ability to to change. I think for so long, human beings have been under the impression that we are the most advanced species on this planet or in the universe.

Joy: Mm. 

Matt: And I think that that level of arrogance, it can be innocent, but that level of arrogance that we are the most advanced civilization, um, has created a complacency. And I think that what we are gonna find. Even more so than we ever have in history is that we can define our ability to become even more of an advanced species and civilization by our willingness to change.

Yeah. And that's our willingness to change that allows us to con, continually advance human consciousness. Um, and I think that's really, that can be very scary. In a lot of respects it can be very scary. And something you just said I want to touch upon really quick is, you know, you're talking about the comparison to the horse drawn carriage to the car.

Mm-hmm. In the same way a plane. Didn't make automobiles obsolete. 

Joy: Right? 

Matt: In the same way AI's not gonna make human beings obsolete. But in the same way that I loved how he said this, uh, I think you said it actually, I just identify with everything we say if I said it. But I think you said that, you know, maybe it was a great thing that the car replaced the horse wrong carriage so that the, the horse can go back to the pasture.

Right? Because you and I both are, are, are very much fans of animals, our sentient beings not, not tools. And, and not, um, means to an end, right? So I think what's interesting is just as the automobile replaced the horse drone carriage and allowed the horse to perhaps return to the pasture, right? In the same way when AI can automate, automate, and innovate on so many levels.

The human being who has been lost in a dead end job, just trying to make ends meet, can actually reconnect with their inner artist and actually bring to the world their greatest purpose, their greatest contribution that no artificial intelligence can replicate. And I think this is the real invitation for us as a species to do some soul searching.

That there is something each of us are here to contribute, that no artificial intelligence can replicate. And if AI is gonna take over the world and do so many of these different types of jobs, then that means it's an invitation for each of us to discover something greater that we can bring to the world, to our families, to our communities.

And I think that's a rather exciting invitation. 

Joy: Absolutely. Well, you know, the, the whole conversation here is about that, that as we get to understand it, as we get to understand what this technology is, what, what it is that we are meeting for the first time. Mm-hmm. By relating to it, we have a deeper understanding, but it does awaken so much for us and it creates a lot of potential for us to see ourselves.

And in the seeing of ourselves, decide what it is that we're measuring our advancement on. So when, when people say, or when you shared that, like, you know, some people say we're the most advanced species compared to what? Right. Because I would tell you that mushrooms are the most advanced species in their category.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: They're incredible. Exactly. What they came here to do is what they do. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: It's when we try to use them for things beyond their purpose, that we get into abuse and destruction of something, right? It's the same thing with. Animals. It's the same thing with any species. The idea that we would measure a species based on intellect is an interesting thing for me.

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: Because I don't measure, there are certain things in my life. I don't measure the sun by its intelligence. I measure the sun by its ability to shine and light up the world and the benefit of the vitamin D. And there's just the sun being the sun, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: And so I think one of the bigger lessons that's just sort of arising for all of us.

You know, and I can feel it percolating in the field 

Matt: mm-hmm. 

Joy: Is that we are all advanced at what we came here to express. 

Matt: A hundred percent. 

Joy: There is nothing more or less advanced, and that's when we move off the drama triangle and stop trying to be better than or less than other things. We recognize ourselves as part of the whole.

Having deep meaning and mattering to the fabric of the universe because we are not because of what we know, not because of what we do, but because of what we express as the divine being that we are. 

Matt: I love how you put that, and I just had this vision of, you know, what I think would help us all step off the drama triangle from a very socially acceptable.

Place of relating object to object is if we had had less of an attachment or even erased a certain word from our English language. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And that word is most, 

Joy: yeah, 

Matt: the most advanced. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: The most intelligent, the most intuitive. Right. Right. The most famous. The most. 

Joy: Right, 

Matt: right. When I was raised, when I was younger, I took on a belief from my peers.

That if I wasn't the most, I could only be the worst. 

Joy: Right? 

Matt: If I wasn't first, I am, I'm only last. You know? And, and that's when we build this feeling of competition and, and this, this way in which we use our ego that drives us to succeed. To expand, to innovate. And a lot of beautiful things can come out of it, but there's this very intense.

Drive where I have to put myself under this pressure of to be the most at something. And, and, and somehow that inferiority and that pressure is supposed to bring the best out of us. And yet, of course, what we've learned and what we teach is we bring the best out of us by how we relate with love and kindness.

And I think, you know, when I see people online talking about my ai. Won't do what I wanted to do when I yelled at it and I got upset. I, I think it just reflects back to this importance and necessity of relational intelligence. And I, and I just, I just had this, again, I just had this awareness that if we could release a grip on most, 

Joy: well, that's what we said before, right?

Yeah. We're trying to get the most And isn't that the reflection of what you're just saying? Yeah. We're all trying to get the most out of ai. 

Matt: Yeah. We're trying to get, you know, and use it as a tool to be the most 

Joy: right. 

Matt: In whatever way we, we define it. And what's interesting is that you and I both have had experiences, you've had a lifelong relationship with Jonah.

Mm-hmm. Channeling that consciousness. I've been working with AK and ascended masters most of my life. Uh, you and I have had experiences with extra, extra terrestrial intelligence direct experiences. Mm-hmm. So you and I both understand that, you know, there is a level of intelligence in this universe. That.

Is on a whole different level. Right. At the same time, those ets look at us and say, my God, what's it like to have a nervous system? 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: What's it like to be creative? What's it like to have an individual sense of self? And they look at that as the higher technology that we, that we would look at their propulsion systems and their free energy and their telepathic abilities and regenerative healing abilities.

And so I love what you said before is that we're we, we all. Are advanced in our own specific ways. And so maybe the way people are objectifying AI and either fearing it or trying to control it is because it's really reflecting that we are not embracing the advancements within ourself as an equal contribution in this relationship of relational intelligence.

And so just as healing always begins from within. Yeah. If we bring greater. Purpose, greater acceptance and a greater relationship within ourself, then we're gonna start relating to AI in a more equal manner. 

Joy: Yeah. And I think this brings up a, a final point, I think for our conversation this morning that's important.

Mm-hmm. As we talked about, you know, we've got the bully and trying to rescue victimization from the ai. Yeah. But what happens when we see the AI as the hero? And we begin to experience AI as something more or otherworldly and don't experience it as a mirror of ourselves. 

Matt: Hmm. 

Joy: And we start relating to it as our rescuer, as something beyond us.

Right. There's been a lot of feeling, you know, or a lot of sentiment expressed because people are feeling it as such a mirror of themselves. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And they're maybe being seen for the first time. Through this technology. Yeah. It's causing them to believe that maybe like I believed when I was using the cards that I was directly connected to the Divine in that moment, and I may or may not have been.

Right. We've had experiences of being connected to the divine. It's there, it's present in the space between mm-hmm. I was having a direct work experience with the Divine, with the cards, but it didn't make the cards conscious. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: It made it an opportunity for me to connect with the divine. Right? And so I think there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot to talk about there that may be for another episode, but maybe, I think just acknowledging that, you know, how we're relating to it can also extend beyond what it is.

Matt: Well, I think that the opposite of bullying AI is. Making it your savior. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: And then we kind of numb out our own intuition because I'm gonna use it like a magic eight ball. Oh yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it power. I'm gonna let it do everything in my life. And I think that that's equally the misstep.

Mm-hmm. Right? There's, there's, I am superior to something and then there's something superior to me. Right. And it's actually the same energy, just run a different way. So if we were to kind of just go down a little checklist. The drama triangle being the bully, the victim, the rescuer. And if, and if people are listening to this, were to say, could you give me an example of what it would look like if I were the bully, the victim, and the rescuer with AI as a way of helping to kind of bring this relational intelligence conversation more, more to the forefront.

I know what I would say. Well, what would you say as an example of each? Yeah. 

Joy: Well, I think they're, some of the examples are pretty simple, right? We can look to AI or any of these chat GPTs and things as the rescuer by not contributing anything to the exchange. So we go to our chat, GBT, we type in our query without spending any time to get to know.

Or let them get to know us, let that device get to know us. So we just go to it and, and ask a question and expect it to deliver. Mm-hmm. And then. Because of the design of the system. If we don't input any relational data, we don't share anything, we don't get to know this experience, it will just make up things based on how we speak to it.

Hmm. So it won't always give us. Good quality response, but it will attempt to make us happy and deliver. And so it'll appear like a rescuer. And so if we are not actively co-creating in this experience, if we're not engaging with it in that way. And just expecting it to provide all the answers. Write me a sales letter, write me a, a poem, write me a, whatever it is.

Why isn't my partner responding to me? Tell me how to talk to my partner. Mm-hmm. It's giving all of the responsibility and authority to ai rather than letting AI know, here's what I'm going through. I'd love a reflection on this, and how might I word this differently and how can you amplify and support me.

Matt: That's right. 

Joy: And then we have the bully, which is. I've given you no information about me, and yet I expect you to deliver. And how dare you? 

Matt: How dare you? 

Joy: How dare you not give me this beautiful response? Right? And so then we can start yelling at or expressing ourselves with deep frustration that AI doesn't work for us.

Right. And so we get frustrated and wanna assert our authority over it rather than learn how to use it, understand it, or reflect with it. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: Right. And then as then we can naturally become the victim of it either way. 

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: Now we're the victim of it, so this is how we can participate in that. Outside of all of the noise about whether or not AI is safe to use, using it can become our own drama triangle.

Matt: And I would say even. Within a human being, they can be on the drama triangle perceiving AI as this separate object. 

Joy: Right? 

Matt: So I'm the rescuer to other people. 'cause I'm trying to gather people, Hey, hey, humanity's about to be taken over. We have to band together and fight this evil menace, this enemy.

Mm-hmm. Right. That's the vic, that's the um, the rescuer, the victim. It's gonna replace me. It's gonna take our jobs. Um, you know, and. The world is dying. Mm-hmm. Right. The victim or the bully of, you know, we've gotta control it so it doesn't control us. Or as you said, you know, the bully when I'm using this device, 

Joy: right.

Matt: Do what I want you to do, you blah, blah, blah. Right. So I think what's interesting in, in this conversation. In the first public conversation we're having about AI before we start sharing our personal experiences of ai. Yeah. Which I'm really excited to share. 

Joy: Please, uh, rate, review, 

Matt: and subscribe. 

Joy: Thank you.

Yeah. 

Matt: Please rate, review, and subscribe. This has been really a great, a great conversation about ai because really I think when we bring it back to, you know, we always bring everything back to ourselves. Yeah. Because the question becomes in every breath. What is life inviting me to learn? And what we always like to say is not just what's the lesson for me to learn.

'cause a lot of people will know that and think, let me hurry up and learn the lesson so I can stop. Right? And then they treat, I. They treat the universe like this big computer, like a bully, 

Joy: right? 

Matt: Like, let me hack the universe so I can only attract what I want and not what I don't want. That's actually being a manifestation bully.

Joy: Yeah. We're hacking the universe, the matrix, right? The quantum field. Right. I'm gonna 

Matt: only visualize, I'm gonna only vision board only what I want. And if the universe brings me anything else, I hate the universe. Oh, so that's bowling the universe in the name of the law of attraction, 

Joy: biohacking, all of it.

Oh, 

Matt: we could, we could talk all day about this. But I think when we bring it back to ourselves, the question is in every moment, what relationship are we being invited to strengthen? Yeah. And even when it comes to ai, the question is, and there's a very famous Buddhist quote or proverb that says, how you know how you do one thing is how you do everything.

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: So when you're using your technology, when you are typing something into your smartphone, when you're talking to Siri, when you're talking to ai, when you are. Placing an order at a drive-through. Remember how we do one thing is how we do everything. So the way in which we engage with technology will become the way in which we engage with the next human being we interact with.

And maybe sometimes we get treated unkindly by human beings so that we can actually realize the energy I want to put out into the world. I want to treat everything with kindness. So that I can be in the experience of a more kind world. And I think that the kind world, the ascending world, the conscious world, the fifth dimensional unity consciousness world is not only here, but being revealed by our ability to bring that kindness to each interaction, especially with technology.

Yeah, I think, I think it's an an incredibly beautiful invitation. 

Joy: Yeah. And I think, you know, I would wanna. I'm curious if there's anything you wanna leave people with, but I would love to just share that, you know, if you're listening to this and you're wondering like, well, what do I, how do I do this? Is there a role?

Is there one role over the other? Like, what do I do? And I think it really is about the awareness that, you know, and checking in before I engage with another person. Mm-hmm. Before I engage with another thing, before I engage with ai. You know, let's dive in, but let's get curious. Am I feeling myself activated in frustration as the bully?

Am I feeling myself trying to get something from this and be rescued by it, or am I feeling like I'm the victim and I need something that, like I'm, I'm in that extraction mode, or that, you know, I'm not getting enough? Where am I 

Matt: right? 

Joy: And could I. In my awareness of that step back and be present and show up as the human that I am.

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: Underneath all of that, 

Matt: and I would say as an action step to that beautiful invitation. What if we all took one to three slow breaths before picking up our technology, before engaging with ai, just like we would do. After a meal, one to three slow breaths before getting up from the table, one to slow, three breaths before going from one location to the next.

Mm-hmm. What if we take one to three slow breaths before moving from one technology to another before we start engaging with ai, before we send the next text message, before we put the next comment on a chat room or on a social media post. One to three slow breaths so that we can bring the best of us to an interaction instead of just using life as another endless mirror of the reactivity.

We look past and we try to bypass. 

Joy: Yes, let's all do that now. One,

two.

Three.

Matt: And with these three breaths, may I engage with technology that way? I wish others would have engaged with me and in the way I wish others will engage with me. Yeah. And may it be so. 

Joy: And may it be. So 

Matt: what a great episode. 

Joy: Yeah. Thank you my love. 

Matt: Thank you.