The Truth About Surrender

Surrender isn’t something you "do". It’s something you become aware of, often in the middle of a moment you never saw coming.

In this episode, we share some of the most unexpected, uncomfortable, and sacred surrender moments in our lives, from getting punched in the face in 7th grade (yes, really)… to walking away from college, careers, and even the life we thought we wanted.

You’ll hear:

• Why real surrender rarely feels graceful at first
• The difference between trying to surrender vs. being called into it
• The “two kinds” of surrender, into stillness and into action
• What it looked like to walk away from a big life (and move into the trees)
• How surrender can reroute your life

If you’re in a moment that doesn’t make sense…
If life feels like it’s asking you to let go without telling you what’s next…
This conversation is for you.

We hope it brings peace, courage, and the reminder that surrender isn’t the end.
It’s the way through.

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Transcript

Matt: If you've ever felt like life pulled the rug out from under you, or if you've been pushed to the edge and had no choice but to let go. This episode's for you 

Joy: today, we're talking about surrender, not the peaceful kind that feels enlightened from the start, but the kind that knocks the wind out of you.

The kind that begins with heartbreak and confusion and ends in the quiet knowing that you're being rerouted. Not punished. 

Matt: We're sharing the moments that brought us to our knees and the unexpected clarity that arrived when we stopped resisting what life was already asking of us. 

Joy: This episode isn't about giving up, but about waking up and learning to trust that even the most uncomfortable detours can lead exactly where you're meant to be.

Matt: So if you're standing at a crossroads or watching something end without knowing what comes next. We hope this conversation brings you peace, courage, and the reminder that surrender isn't the end. It's the beginning. 

Joy: Welcome to the timing effect.

Matt: Hello again, podcast lamp. 

Joy: Hello again. 

Matt: You know, just fresh off that incredible deep dive we did. In their last episode, you know, we were just having coffee and we were talking about surrender. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And it seemed like a perfect and natural next step after what we shared. 

Joy: Yeah. Absolutely. I was thinking about how my own journey with surrender and what it means to me has changed so much over the years.

Likewise, remember in the beginning, surrender felt like defeat. 

Matt: Defeat. 

Joy: Yeah. It felt like something that was happening to me. Hmm. That I was somehow in trouble by the universe because I was so terribly off path that I was being forced to do something. I had to do and yeah, it was, it was challenging. 

Matt: Or if I don't give up my choices and free will, there's no way the divine is gonna move through me.

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Set myself aside, even though, I mean, if we really think about it, how could the divine create something to be in its own way? 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: So we really think about it, right? 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And, and I think traditionally surrender is imagined or taught. As in one form of surrender, and I think you and I have both experienced that there are two vital stages of it.

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: If not more. 

Joy: I think our relationship, just as our relationship with everything, our relationship with surrender has become something that feels sacred to us. 

Matt: Yes, 

Joy: it's a, a beautiful experience, but it was definitely a journey to get there. Right. I re, I remember the first times that I actually was aware.

That I was being asked to surrender. It was to those moments where you feel like, um, this is happening and I deeply don't want this to be happening. Right. So that was the beginning of it. The beginning of surrender for me was, you know, the death of my fiance was a really huge surrender moment. 

Matt: I can imagine.

Joy: Right? It's this is happening. You don't want it to be happening, but it is. And while you had other plans for your journey, you're navigating this. Right. This is what's happening, right? And I remember as surrender sort of started to evolve itself, you know, years later when I was awakening and awakening to there's more than this world.

There's, you know, that this world may not be the way that I've perceived it. And I started to go on my spiritual path. I remember looking around my house and I had gotten to where I thought I wanted to be, and I was running events out of it. Interesting. So I was doing these weekly gatherings where we would meditate and do a spiritual teaching, and I loved it.

It was such a beautiful experience, but there were parts of my life that weren't, they weren't going well. Hmm. You know, I was in a relationship I probably was being guided out of at that point, and it was in a life that. I was sort of in denial about, and I remember looking around this giant house that I was living in and feeling sort of an, an emptiness, but also feeling like it was collapsing in on me.

And it was this feeling of, you're here but you're not happy. I don't know why you're not happy. It's everything you thought you wanted, right? Everything you thought you wanted was happening in this moment. And yet something inside of me just wanted to scream. I felt so miserable, and it was this feeling of you can't deny this feeling of misalignment that you're living in.

No matter how hard I tried, no matter how many new throw pillows for the couch, no matter. No matter how many amazing friends I had, I couldn't deny that my life wasn't quite the way. It was meant to be. So I was having this moment of an idea, this isn't exactly what I want. And it was in that moment that I started to feel the disconnect or the pulling of, but this is the life you're living, right?

So the tension was, it's not what I want, but it is what I have, and the only way it was going to change. Is if I changed it. 

Matt: And that's an amazing amount of surrender because usually throw pillows of all things should do the trick. You 

Joy: know how they transform our house every time? 

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: We just bought new throw pillows more.

Throw pillows. They're beautiful. 

Matt: Yes, they're beautiful. Yeah. So, so you're in this big house. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: You are feeling that disconnect? Mm-hmm. And then what is, what, what, what is the next, what's the next step that you took? 

Joy: Well it, you know, it was interesting 'cause it was a series of things. Mm. And I, I imagine, you know, people find themselves here all the time.

We hear people talk about this all the time. There's just something gnawing at you. Yeah. And you can't ignore it. And it just gets louder and louder and louder. And I remember, you know. Standing in the bathroom mirror was one of the biggest places I would, I would look in the mirror and I would really look into myself, so I would do this often where I would look, am I really living the life that I want?

I would get curious like, what's going on? Why am I so unhappy? I have done all the right things. I have pushed myself to the brink in work I'm doing, doing, doing. And then it hit me, you're not being in your life. Mm-hmm. And so I was always running from something, moving from something. I was always going somewhere, doing something, changing something.

But what wasn't changing was, and it was so funny because I think back, I'm like, I was leading meditation circles, but in my life I was moving around and doing all the time. Right. So stillness wasn't happening in the day to day. Sure. So I stopped. In that moment, looked around my house and felt like I just needed to sell it all.

Hmm. So I did, um, so grateful for a family that is used to just rolling with me in these, in this, in this change. Right. Yeah. I laugh now 'cause I think my kids probably are like. If we could have just stayed in one place a little bit longer. Right. But I was having my spiritual awakening in front of my children.

Wow. And uh, yeah, it was beautiful. They were beautiful. But I remember in that moment telling the family, we have to sell everything. I need to be in nature. I need to slow down. I need to feel what it's like to live in the being, not the doing. 

Matt: I think that type of surrender, as we talked earlier about, there's two major surrenders.

Mm-hmm. They're different. But I think what's, what strikes me about what you're saying is that it wasn't something you wondered, should I do this? It it came upon you as a necessity. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: An existential, biological necessity. Mm-hmm. And so when people, and we hear this a lot. Should I do this? Should I not do this?

The surrender is actually not a negotiation. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: It's an existential necessity as, as if I need to do this because it somehow feels like my life is, is on the line. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: I mean it's absolutely, you know, when I think about the grief and you know, when, for a lot of us, we feel surrender in those moments of there's, there's no other option.

It is happening. Right. Someone dies. We have a crisis, something's going on, and we have to, and even in that moment, while it didn't feel like on the surface I had to, I had to, 

Matt: right. 

Joy: There was no denying that I wasn't with myself in that moment. 

Matt: I, I have to, 

Joy: I 

Matt: have to. So when it, when surrender dawns, and I think sometimes the confusion is people are trying to surrender.

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Right. But when you're trying to surrender. There, there, there isn't the prompt of I have to, mm. Let's say, should I, should this, you know, it, it comes across as, I think this is the most spiritually logical thing for me to do, and the precise but illogical nature of surrender is for whatever reason I have to do this.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: I have to. And so you did. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: You sold all your belongings, moved outta the big house. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Where did you go next? 

Joy: Went into the uh, four, 250 square foot rv. Oh, wow. With my two children and three dogs. 

Matt: How old were your kids at the time? 

Joy: They were seven and 12. Maybe a little older, maybe 14, but young.

Hey kids, 

Matt: how would you like to go camping? Right. For especially the teenager. Yeah, sure. 

Joy: Yeah. He would've been, he would've been 14, 15, and just very confused. 

Matt: So two kids. Yeah, two dogs, 

Joy: yeah. 

Matt: In a 250 square foot camper or a v 

Joy: in the middle of the trees. 

Matt: In the middle of the trees, 

Joy: and not just the middle of the trees in a.

In a location where the only visitors were, you know, occasional visitors from other provinces. This was in Canada at the time. Mm-hmm. So they would come from other pro provinces and we were living on a, on a plot of land that was invitation only. So it had an interesting energy of sacredness cocoon, but also isolation.

Right. So I was in this, I felt like I was very much going into the cocoon in order to learn about being. And you know, the kids loved it. They loved it, and I think they probably wished that there were more kids around, but it was just us and the animals. Um, we had bears that would come through, you know, wherever we'd be sitting out in the campsite.

We were next to the water, next to the mountains. I mean, it was idyllic. It was one of those places where, you know, it feels like a dream when you're there. And we got to connect with the rhythm of life. And so I'm forever grateful for that. I think that's in my children, they feel that it's a, a compass of peace and calm that is a part of their story, that no matter what's going on in life, they remember what it's like to be in that peace.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's amazing that, that was a time that I look back on is incredibly sacred. But it was also a time, and, and you know this, you know, in, in the things that you've experienced, these are, these times. Pass we, we learn what's there for us in the moment. Just like the grief passed in, the loss of my fiance, this time of peace in the trees also passed.

Matt: Well, I love how you say that because you know, we talk, when we talk about two types of surrender. Mm-hmm. So you surrender out of the doing into the being. Mm-hmm. Right? Which is the very popular, widely publicized version of surrender. You go to the trees, you're with your kids, two dogs in an rv, and you come out of the doing and into the being.

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And then a, another type of surrender comes forward. 

Joy: Right. And it hits you in the same way. The transition is really what surrender is. Surrender lets you know you're at the end of something. Mm-hmm. And you're moving into the beginning of something else, and it feels like such a divine gift. It's like a signal that something next is here for you, and it's a way of the universe.

The divine ensuring we are on path. I used to feel like it was You're not on path. Yeah. I remember standing in the house going, you are not on path. Somehow you have missed it. You're right. You're in a different dimension of reality. Sure. But that wasn't the truth. I. I was right on path. It was just time in that path to do something else.

I had the same experience, you know, in the trees, living in the trees. We were there for about nine months and I remember having a moment that couldn't be denied sitting there at the edge of the water and having this very, you know, at that point, nature was who I spoke to the animals and had an eagle come in and very distinctly speak to me telepathically.

Saying that it was time to go back and it was the same kind of, you cannot deny this moment, it's time to go back to the world. And I felt it with the same kind of intensity I'd felt in the house of, oh, you don't ignore that one. Right, right. That one gets painful if you ignore it. Right. So I knew you. You pack your things up and you drive your RV back into town and you move yourself into a house.

Wow. So that's what I did. I transitioned. 

Matt: And what I love about the story is, you know, the first part of it is the surrendering out of doing and into being. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And then the second surrender was surrendering out of the being and into the doing. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And of course, I'm sure in your experience when you went back to the doing, he brought the being with you.

Joy: It was, and it was, I brought it back with me. But what was interesting is it was just as uncomfortable. 

Matt: Yes, of course. 

Joy: I really love to be in. 

Matt: Oh, of course. That's, that's the, um, everyone who goes through a spiritual journey can't help but develop a spiritual ego, right? That's just the way it works. And the spiritual ego loves.

Joy: Right. I can just be here. 

Matt: Like, oh, just be here now. 

Joy: Right. If only people understood we'd all live by ourselves. It 

Matt: is what it is. This too shall pass. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Right. And we, and we, and we think that that's actually the, the end point. We don't see it as a phase. 

Joy: It's interesting because I went back, right? You talk about the phases.

I went back at first with the same tension of, I dunno if I really wanna do this, but I'm doing it right. But I started teaching meditation and bringing the, being back very deliberately. So I went back into meditation. But it was different this time because of what I'd been taught, you know, at that, during that time that it was about how do we be.

And do in harmony, 

Matt: of course. 

Joy: Right? Yeah. So you had a really powerful story that we've talked about a lot. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: And I think it represents what we're talking about in an even deeper way. It 

Matt: it does, it's, it's funny because the story that I thought I was gonna share about this topic mm-hmm. Changes, we were talk as we're sitting here.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: It reminded me, actually of a moment earlier in my life. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: My first experience of surrender was actually in seventh grade. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And so as the, so if I go back to who I was in seventh grade, I go back to who I was in fifth grade. Fifth grade. I am what feels like a kid playing with action figures and everything feels very idyllic and innocent.

And then I go into sixth grade and it feels like. Yeah. Like if I was watching a movie, the Shift from fifth grade to sixth grade, right? You cut to first day of middle school, and in the background you hear Guns N Roses, welcome to the jungle. It was like, it was like Pinocchio going time to grow up. 

Joy: Yeah.

Matt: That part. Oh my God. What's happening? That shift? We're pleasure island is what, what's, what's happening? And all of a sudden I'm on a, I'm in a field, a school yard with mini, you know, many adolescents. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And all of a sudden we're not talking kid stuff, we're talking other stuff, and there's all these people you want to meet, and there's popular kids and not popular kids.

And, uh, rejection and acceptance and it's, it, it, it hit me pretty hard because it was just like being thrown into a new world and I had to, I felt like I had to quickly go, okay, you're not a kid anymore. You have to learn how to open a locker. And it was all actually pretty intense. And so fast forward a little bit into sixth, sixth grade, seventh grade.

I wound up being a very well known character in my school, and I had seen kids get into fights. I had seen kids get beat up. And that always scared the, the daylights out of me. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And I, I wanted to be accepted, not rejected. So I was everyone's friend. I was also very empathic. So I was, so, I was always reaching out and wanting to support people.

'cause I, I, I care about people and I also was kind of people pleasing because I was completely afraid of being spontaneously beat up for whatever reason. Like, I would walk to I where, where my parents lived when I was a kid, was around the, around the block from my middle school and across street from the mall.

So every time I'd either walk to the mall or walk to school, I always had this fear of, so someone's gonna jump outta the bushes and beat me up. So I was everyone's friend. And I remember there was a moment in seventh grade where this new kid came to school. And he had, and he, he looked similar to me and we were the same height.

And I think part of my well-known ness is I had a big personality, but I was also the smallest kid in school. And there was all those rumblings of this new kid and oh, he looks like Matt or whatever. And I didn't know who this person was. And you know, you hear the chatter and, and the quads and stuff and all of a sudden, like there was this weird energy.

In, in and amongst my peers where, where I went and I, I forgot the moment, but someone kind of filled me in, oh, this new kid wants to find you and beat you up. And my heart starts racing. Why? What's going on? Oh, he, he, he heard you were talking about him. I never mentioned this kid's name in my life. So I am like feeling guilty before proven innocent.

What's going on? Who do I talk to? Who do I pay off? Like I'm, I'm, I'm feeling like a mini politician in, in a scandal that only exists in my mind. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And so I then spend the rest of that school day, like looking over my shoulder, this weird feeling of being hunted and. At the end of the school day, someone comes up to me and goes, yeah, when they find you tomorrow, they're gonna get you.

And I am so freaked out. And so then I go home and I'm in my bedroom just thinking about this. And from that afternoon and evening to the next day, felt like a lifetime of just anticipating and thinking, what could I, what, who, how did this happen? What's going on? This is, this can't be happening the next day.

I go to school like I would normally and everything felt okay. There was a weird stillness in the air. I remember I was standing on the grass on the school yard or in that area with, with two of my friends, and I happened to look over to my left. And in the distance I saw a group of kids with this new kid in front walking towards me like a mob.

Joy: Hmm. 

Matt: And it was like it was happening in slow motion. And I thought, oh my God. And they approached me and I just stood there and all of a sudden it went from slow motion to kind of fast forward and then they were all surrounding me. Hmm. And I'm in this circle with all these people yelling, and this kid is in front of me, scowling at me.

I just stared at him 'cause he looked at me and it was not a moment where I willfully surrendered. 'cause I didn't know at the time. But looking back, I was surrendered. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: And for whatever reason, I just stood there and I observed the moment within my body. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And he pushed me and I stepped back.

Then I heard the group of kids around me go, 

Joy: oh. 

Matt: And I thought, well that didn't hurt. This is what a fight is. And then someone pushed me from behind into him and it looked like I did something. Oh. And I thought, I don't even know if this is a fight. Thank God. And then he like pushed me down and I fell on the grass.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And, and I, and I just looked up at him and I slowly got up and I stood there and I just looked at him and he pushed me down again and I fell on the ground and I slowly got up and I just stared at him. And then kids around me are booing and then he goes, this is stupid. Let's go. And as they all walk away, yeah, you got him.

You, you, you, you, you kicked his butt, blah, blah, blah. I thought, well, that didn't really hurt. 

Joy: Yeah, 

Matt: and it was interesting because it wasn't like in seventh grade, I had this thought of, I'm gonna surrender to the divine. I'm gonna be bigger, I'm gonna be more enlightened. There wasn't any spiritual anything.

It was literally just something moved into my field and my body was like a video game controller. Yeah. And someone just started putting a code in of like, this is what you're gonna do, right? This is how you're gonna play this out. And I literally just went into being and observed from within my body what it's like to be in a fight.

And I was completely defenseless and nothing really happened. 

Joy: You just were, 

Matt: I just was. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And. The, you know, the after effect was he never bothered me again. The big thing was Matt was totally lame in that fight. Mm-hmm. Which was great because I, I didn't get hurt. I didn't, no one else, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not a, I'm not an aggressive person.

Joy: No. 

Matt: And so that was, and that was very peculiar to me when I was in seventh grade. I thought, why, why, why was that my choice? Because I thought it was my choice still. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: It was my first moment of being surrendered. And I think that, and there have been other moments of course, but I think that that's why it's been very confusing when I started to teach it in the spiritual journey because people were trying to choose to surrender, right?

Or how do I make surrender happen? And it became very obvious to me. It's like, well, you want the effects of surrender. But you can't make surrender happen. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Like surrender comes upon you. Like another example, and this is the story that we were gonna talk about. 

Joy: You know, as you're saying that there is, surrender is something you become aware of, not something you do.

Matt: I, I love how you spread that, right? Can you say that again? Yeah. Surrender. Surrender 

Joy: is something you become aware of. 

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: Not something you do. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: It's a moment in time that catches you and says, pay attention. Right. It's like you can't fabricate, surrender, just like you can't fabricate now being now.

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: Right. It just 

Matt: is. Well, we, and if we go down the checklist, I'm try, I'm trying to make presents happen. Right. 'cause of what I, because of the bells and whistles I want right. When it happens, I, I'm trying to be surrendered. I'm trying to forgive. I'm trying to accept. Mm-hmm. Right. I think the theme is.

Our spiritual ego is trying to do all of the things because it wants the effect of it or it fakes that by doing those things, it's gonna make, it's gonna force the hand of the universe to make something we want occur quicker or something. We don't like to move away faster. Right. 

Joy: So surrenders being in the moment and while that first surrender.

Yeah. What for both of us was being in a moment we didn't see coming and having us be still. Right. Yeah. I had to laugh because you know the story of my seventh grade fight. 

Matt: You know what's funny is I remember that, but just now because, but. I had forgotten about that. Another thing we have in common, right?

Seventh grade, 

Joy: I know, I feel like our entire journey has these layers of these similar stories. But seventh grade I was standing at my locker and all of a sudden turned because I heard someone yelling something and I didn't know what they were yelling. And there was this girl, this she, she's just staring at me like screaming and upset and I had never spoken to her before.

Really? So this girl is. Screaming at me. Oh. Like I've done something just by my mere presence. Oh God. And so I turned to her and before I could even say anything, she punched me in the face. Oh my God. Oh no. I didn't have that much. There was punched you 

Matt: in the face. I just was in the 

Joy: moment. Oh God. There was no other choice.

Right. So it's that, this surrender of that's what's happening. So it takes you a minute when you're laying on the floor. To go, oh, what? What just happened? Right? And so I remember just laying there going, oh, and I just sat there observing the moment, and then she just walked off. There was no, I didn't retaliate.

I think I just laid there trying to figure out why any of that. I now could never, I still don't know to this day why that happened. So if she wants to email in and let me know 

Matt: if you, if you are listening or watching this and you are the one 

Joy: who punched me in the face 

Matt: that punched joy in the face, 

Joy: first of all, how 

Matt: dare you.

Second of all, if you'd like to email and let us know why. 

Joy: But isn't that funny? It's so 

Matt: appreciated. I 

Joy: write, I think that's what the universe does. You know, sometimes it feels like you're being punched in the face in a surrender moment. Oh yeah. And yeah, oftentimes you don't know why. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: You just are, 

Matt: you just are.

Joy: That's, that's funny 

Matt: that that's, you know, it's, I'd forgotten about that. That that was in seventh grade. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: That's, that's, that's fa that's fantastic. 

Joy: Terrified. Standing at a locker that I terrify, I probably forgot the code to at the time. Oh, 

Matt: it's terrifying. It's, I mean, and I was just pushed down a few times.

It was, it was the most un uneventful fight. I mean, it was awful. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: But, but from my perspective, you know, it was just, it was. Great. Because 

Joy: yeah, 

Matt: nothing really happened, and even when you get punched in the face, it's just this kind of impact, right? Where you don't even know what happens. Then all of a sudden it's like you're, it's like a jump cut in a movie and you're just on the ground.

Joy: Yeah. I think I was more embarrassed than in pain. Like I think it probably hurt. I mean, it knocked me to the ground. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: But more so because I just didn't think I needed a brace for anything. 

Matt: It's amazing how embarrassment is such a painkiller. 

Joy: Oh yeah. 

Matt: I've had that happen before where it's like, I should be in pain and I'm so embarrassed 

Joy: that I can't be.

Matt: No, you tell your body, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We don't have time to be in pain. We're too embarrassed. 

Joy: We're gonna get up and we're gonna brush this off and say something clever. 

Matt: Say something clever. Wow. 

Joy: If she hadn't hadn't walked away, I'd have really got her. I'm sure I said something ridiculous. 

Matt: You should see what happened to her.

Yeah. That's amazing. Wow. 

Joy: But life gets you sometimes, well, in your story, 

Matt: you know, your story of surrender of from doing to being went from being to doing. So it's kind of like a round trip flight of awakening. Yeah. The first flight is from doing to being, mm-hmm. Right. And then the second flight home, the round trip part of it is bringing, being back into doing.

Yes. And for me, I think about. I was in college at the time. I spent about seven months in college at Long Beach State, and I remember there was a moment where I realized, Hey, you know all those cool college classes that you want to take? Like, well, you can only take a few of those because you have to have two years of general ed.

And I had just gotten out of high school and I didn't like high school. High school was not a fun experience for me. I made the best of it, but middle school was awesome. High school was really hard, and the idea that having to go through two more years of high school is how I thought of it crushed me. I just wanted to take fun classes.

Yeah. I had interpersonal communication. I had psychology. Those are the two classes I really liked. And looking at where my life has gone. No surprise. And I had these other classes, like Early American literature. So I go to college and I am feeling my soul being crushed, but I think you gotta do this, you gotta get a degree, you know?

You gotta make something of yourself. And I remember slowly but surely feeling this soul crushing despair of I cannot. Do this. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And I was in negotiation of, should I, shouldn't I? But again, surrender occurs when it's a necessity. And I remember I was in early American literature class and we were studying a, a story, a novel called Beowulf, and I think it was in Latin.

Okay. And for whatever reason, this was the most soul crushing experience of my life. This and geology, for whatever reason, was just the driest, 

Joy: I can picture you 

Matt: adrenal depleting experience of my life at that time. And for some reason, in the middle of this class, the teacher said, just stopped and started going off on this little aside and says, you know.

Everything's a choice. And for any of you who are sitting here and not really engaged, just know you do not have to be here. You don't have to be here. It's a choice. And I heard that and all of a sudden freedom 

Joy: arose 

Matt: within me and I thought, I don't have to be here. I don't have to be here. I don't have to be here.

And I literally just slowly put my folder and my notebook in my backpack and I slowly got up and I just walked out. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: From the back of the room and I just walked out the, the rear exit. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: No one saw me. No one cared. And I walked out and I thought, I don't have to do this. And I literally walked out of Long Beach State and I stood on the steps of Long Beach State and I looked at the sky and I spontaneously was overcome by this.

Exhilaration and I declared the universe by university. 

Joy: Mm. 

Matt: And it was my way of saying, I'll do the doing, but it has to be in through this direction. It has to be through the universe, not. This cul, whatever this is. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And I left college and I went home. I talked to my parents and they're like, oh, Matthew, what did you learn in college today?

And I said, I learned I don't have to be there. And I quit. And you know, my parents had always, you know, supported whatever dream I had. And I had this tendency of starting something and stopping and never seeing it through my parents. When I was, you know, at that age, gave me money to borrow and start this, and they, they paid for my college and then I quit.

And as I was trying to find myself, they always kept a, a little running tally of how much money they gave me just to help me understand responsibility. And when I quit college, I knew, oh God, there's the money they put out for a college I didn't complete. And I said, I'm gonna declare the Univers as my university.

And they're like, that's great. Does what? Is there some sort of career in that? I don't know. And so I started going on my journey and I started being guided, like, Hey, here's a spiritual bookstore. Go in there, tell 'em about your experiences. And I did, and I've told this story and I started doing readings and then all of a sudden things just kind of spontaneously happened.

Um, but, but that story for me represents a surrender into doing. Where I couldn't be in college for whatever reason. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: There was something inside of me that says, this is not for you. And I tried to make it work. I tried to say, oh, that's just, I'm gonna overcome that. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And I would drive to college and the same place on the freeway.

Every time I would drive to Long Beach State, I would start to doze off and fall asleep. Then when I was in class, I had to fight myself to stay awake and I couldn't. I, I drank loads of caffeine. I was trying to figure out why am I so tired? Mm-hmm. And the minute I left college and, and answered that surrender, it all kind of lifted.

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And then when spirituality started opening up for me. I thought, well, you didn't do college. This is the thing that you wanted to do. So you, you, you, this is where we really put the work into. Mm-hmm. And as soon as my spiritual experiences and opportunities opened up, I put myself so deep into the work.

I put myself so deep into study, I put myself so deep into commitment, and that was a surrendering into action. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Right? And so I, I think it's so important. If we think of it like a round trip flight, there's the, from being unconscious, being into, or unconscious, doing rather into being, and then bringing the, being into the doing, surrendering into action.

I think so many people think that surrender is about stepping out of priorities, breaking commitments, and just being in a place of non-activity. Or that non-attachment is confused with being non-committal. 

Joy: Yeah, 

Matt: and, and I love how in both of our lives, the deeper surrender, even though they're all important phases, was a surrendering into action.

Joy: Well, I think, you know, as you say that it's, you know, it makes me think about a pendulum and how the pendulum isn't really resisting changing direction, right? Sure. It's like it's moving one way and then it's moving the other way. Right. And it feels that, it feels the tension of I'm no longer going this way.

I'm going this way. Right, right. And we learn to go with that flow, right? Everybody wants flow, but to get there. Really requires the curriculum, the universal curriculum, if you will. Okay. Yeah, because I think we're all in a universal training is the training of surrender. And for me it was always, you know, I think as I mentioned in the beginning of the conversation, it was always a feeling of defeat.

Like I had gone away. I was just thinking about the pendulum. Imagine if it felt defeated because it could no longer go the other way. Right. Oh my goodness. I'm defeated from this direction. I'm being stopped from this direction. I can no longer go this way. It's the wrong way. It was the right way. It's just now you're going this way.

That's right. Right. There's no defeat in it, but I remember the be the doing part for me. I really wanted to be where I wanted to be in the doing. Mm-hmm. I think that's. I navigated both of those things. So in the being I really wanted to force the being, right. I'm gonna do it this way, you know, rigid meditation practice and, you know, I was, I was really seeking this being right, and then I just surrendered into it.

But then the doing was the same when I, I remember coming out of that time and being guided to share the work. That I was here to do, so I was being guided to share it, but I wanted to do it my way. I had a background in corporate and in speaking in front of corporate audiences, and I really wanted to be.

Like the TEDx speaker like that. I wanted to have a TED Talk. Yeah. I wanted, I wanted to be in front of these, you know, big, beautiful corporate audiences, and I still love that. Right. It's for different reasons now, but I had this idea of who I was as a speaker. The only challenge was I was such an intuitive.

Every time I would go to speak, I would memorize these really precise points. Like I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna say this. And then exactly that moment I'm gonna say this and it's gonna make the story so magical, right? I was trying to prewrite all of it. And that's what you do speaking, right? You have your signature talk.

So in that, I had my signature talk and I practiced it and practiced it and practiced at every point. I could probably recite it now. We're not going to, 'cause I had it so practiced, but I entered into a speaking competition because I thought I'm so good at this. Mm. That I want the world to know, you know, this is what I'm doing now.

Yeah. This is the, this is where I'm putting myself into doing. It makes me think about like doing what you're supposed to do, going to university. Do you know whatever the path is we think we're supposed to do. I'm always following us. I was always following us, supposed to. Right. So I'm following this supposed to path where I'm gonna speak and it's gonna be exactly as a speaker should, and I'm gonna prove that I'm a good speaker by being in a speaking competition.

Oh, right. This wasn't the first speaking competition I'd been in, by the way, and everyone made me feel really proud of myself. So there's ego in action, right. So I was really proud of myself, how well I was doing in these speaking competitions and this particular speaking competition where surrender got me was.

I was on my way to the finals. I had, there were thousands of us that had, you know, submitted our applications and submitted our talks, and the judges had narrowed us down to 10 people. And so outta thousands, coming down to 10 to speak on stage felt really like this was my moment. It was finally gonna be seen and heard.

And this was the moment that was gonna break me through everything. This was, I mean, I really believed that I had hit a moment right where life was, was different and it, and I did just not in the way I thought. So I'm driving from Arizona to Colorado for this speaking competition. Yeah. And I'm meeting a friend there.

We're gonna, she's gonna be there with me at this event and we're gonna network and meet all these people. We're really excited. So I'm driving and I'm talking to her, and while I'm on the phone with her driving, I notice the ping of a text message coming in or an alert coming in, and it was an alert from my bank.

And my bank was, you've. Um, gone into the negative, your account is overdrawn, and I'm like, I don't understand. I'm driving. I'm not using my card. What's going on? Wow. So I'm like, okay, I'll navigate that. When I get to the next stop, I don't know what's happening, and then I get another alert. And it's that my card is, my other card has been used in some way, and so I'm getting all of these messages.

Wow. That's, so I pull over and I pull over and I look at my accounts and they are all overdrawn. Oh 

Matt: my goodness. 

Joy: My credit card is maxed out that I hadn't been, I hadn't used any of them. 

Matt: Wow. 

Joy: So I discovered that someone else had used my cards. Oh, no. So I'm trying to figure this out. I'm in this panic, kind of like being punched in the face, right?

Matt: It's 

Joy: like you're punched in the face. You're like, I guess I'm in this moment. 

Matt: Oh my goodness. 

Joy: But I find out that I have no way of putting gas in my car, paying for the hotel at the speaking event, buying food, taking care. I have no way of accessing any money. And because someone has taken my credit cards, they've all been frozen.

Sure. So I can't even put money in an account or have my family wire me money because now everything's been canceled. 

Matt: Accounts have been closed. 

Joy: Right. So, you know, hotels don't let you give them cash. Right, right. Those days are over. So I mean, people on the run use cash. Not, not. So I have to make a decision.

I have enough gas in my tank to get to the speaking event or to get home. 

Matt: Wow. 

Joy: So I'm in a moment. I'm in a moment that I can't look away from. I'm in a moment of surrender where I realize I. I need to go home. Hmm. So my dream feels like it's over here. And in the past I would've pushed through. I would've been like, oh, well, I'll push through.

Somehow someone will help me there. Mm-hmm. I'll get more money. I would've looked at it differently, but there was something in me that had surrendered enough times. Yeah. Into knowing that I was being guided to do something different. Right. Not to just freeze and wait for it to be resolved. Sure. So I turned around.

And I went back home and on that drive I cried. And I cried. Yeah. And I cried and I cried. And while I was crying, the awareness was pouring in. Mm-hmm. Of this isn't how you are meant to do this. Mm-hmm. You are meant to do this in a different way. And that's when I surrendered to doing the work that we do, really surrendering to allowing my spiritual journey to guide.

And the work that I do with my guides and the intuition, all of those things I made space for. 

Matt: How many years? How many years ago was that moment of turning back around and going home? 

Joy: I think this was six or seven years ago. Wasn't that long ago. 

Matt: And then you, for the next seven years, you were in your spiritual work?

Surrendered. Surrendered. 

Joy: I had done my spiritual work before. Mm-hmm. But I kept trying to leave it like somehow. I knew better. So I would be in my spiritual work and then I'd go, no, no, I wanna be, you know, this, I want people to see me this way. And this was, I let go. I let go. And, you know, there's a, a saying that, you know, let God take the wheel.

Right. That was literally what was happening to me as I was driving my car. I was like, I am not in charge of this moment. This moment is happening through me. And it was, that was the moment. That I stopped waffling, that I stopped going back and forth, that I, every, every moment since then, when surrender converges with my reality, I walk right into it.

That was the moment when I realized it was fruitless to try to do something different. Hmm. To try to fight against it, because I realized that that moment of surrender had been serving me all along. Right. If we had gotten up in that fight and fought back, oh yeah. It would've been different if we had, if we had done anything different than what was happening in the moment.

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: Our life would be completely different. If I had done anything different, I wouldn't have met you 

Matt: and vice versa. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: And thank God this is where life has brought us. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And thank God for Beowulf. I'm sure it's an amazing 

Joy: novel. I I don't know if anybody's ever said that, 

Matt: I don't think Right. We should make thank God for Beowulf shirts.

Joy: Right. 

Matt: But, um, and your Beowulf was when you turned back around and in the finals. My God. 

Joy: Yeah. I was gonna win. 

Matt: You were going to win. Was gonna 

Joy: take it all. 

Matt: I, I, I sense that. But it's amazing because again, we've talked about this. Pe. We try to surrender, we try to accept, we try to forgive, we try to be present.

We try to do all of these things. We try to let go. And when, when, when it really occurs, it bubbles up like a necessity and it moves itself through you. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And we've been sharing all this and people have been listening to us telling our. Harrowing tales of surrender. The harrowing tales of surrender, right?

It's natural for someone to go, well, what can I do for that to occur? So if someone were thinking that or asking that, 

Joy: and 

Matt: we, you know, and we've answered these questions before, but if someone was thinking that, what can I do to allow that to bubble up like a necessity and, and move through me? Who would you say?

Joy: It's a practice. And it's interesting because I think we say this different every time. Yeah. We're in the moment with it. Right. And sometimes even in the response, it can be more complicated than it needs to be. Right? Because we tend, people tend to want a process, sure. Do this and this and this. And then surrender's easy of course.

And yet, surrender is simply a moment asking for you to be with it. Right. So it's the same answer as the moments when you're not in surrender. 

Matt: Exactly. Love that. 

Joy: Be with the moment you are in and develop a practice, what we call a bliss line of checking in daily. If you're not living from that place, what is happening in my life right now?

What is the experience of my life? What's the experience of my body? What's the breath? That's breathing through this body. What is this moment asking me to be or do? It's a simple question, but one that guides everything with a, a tremendous amount of clarity that then comes with a series of will, accepting the clarity, right?

Matt: A hundred percent. 

Joy: Yeah. What would you say? 

Matt: I love how you put that. Well, I think the first thing is. And I think it's really important to emphasize we cannot manufacture 

Joy: right 

Matt: surrender or acceptance or love or forgiveness. We can't manufacture, and I think a lot of the, the path without intending to be so, becomes trying to make it happen or trying to manufacture, right?

Mm-hmm. And I loved how you put. It's what we do when we're not surrendered, but it's, it's what is calling your attention forward. So if you can feel the presence of spirit, if you can feel the, the pole, where is your attention being pulled? And then the question is, is that something that's helpful or harmful for you?

Joy: Hmm. '

Matt: cause sometimes people, their, their attention is pulled in a compulsive. Unhelpful or harmful direction. And sometimes we, if you, if you can't sense the presence of spirit, you think of priorities, what are the priorities of my life that I am willing to give my attention to? And, and can I start in this moment of where will I give my attention to right here, right now?

And if we can start with that. Mm-hmm. We, we create a, a telepathic message to the universe that says. I'm ready to make it easier for you to guide me. 

Joy: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Because the universe is always guiding us. Right. But there's an opportunity where we say, I'm gonna now make it easier for you to guide me. And we do it by giving our attention to the thing that's pulling at us, and then we check our math, is the thing that's pulling at me helpful or harmful?

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: To my health, to my wellbeing. Right. What's the priority in this moment that I'm willing to give my attention to? And it's really more of a, as you stated, an internal orientation. 

Joy: Yeah. And you know, as you're saying that, it, it, the image that came to my mind was, you know, as a mom with young kids Yeah.

Holding my children's hand as we were getting ready to cross the road. And when they were really little, they used to pull to try to get across the road faster than was safe. Sure. So they'd pull and I would pull harder. And that to me is the tension that the body feels when the hand of the divine is pulling you so that you stay in a moment.

Wow. Right. I was pulling my kids so they'd stay on the sidewalk and I feel like the Divine Source pulls us to stay in a, like stay with this moment. And if we could remember that that is the hand of the divine holding us in a moment saying, this is for you. This is actually the safest place for you to be, is in this moment.

That if we can identify that tension with that be here and then let. The tension move so that we know that it's safe to take the next action. Sure. Because you'll know in that moment when you can pause. You know, I remember my kids would be like, oh, as a car would drive by, we're like, oh, I, I didn't see that.

Right? 'cause they're not looking right. So we are not looking at all of it either. We're not seeing everything that's possible in life, but the divine is. If we can feel that tension and then say, I wanna pause because there's something I don't see about this moment yet. And so my job is to notice and be here in this moment and look for what's here for me.

Matt: Absolutely. Yeah. I love in everything you just said and I think what I really feel called and and love emphasizing. Especially at this time in history about surrender such a, such an incredible teaching. I think it's such a misunderstood teaching, but you said three words that I wish I could tattoo across the sky of the world.

Mm-hmm. Which is surrender into action. 

Joy: Yes. 

Matt: And if we thought of it as surrendering into action, what are the actions I'm ready to surrender into versus withdrawing from the world, withdrawing from choice making, withdraw, withdrawing from difficulty, surrender into action. Yes, that those three words for me energetically just always seemed to energetically point the orientation.

In the direction of forward movement and it really seems to open, open things up versus keep things closed down. Because I think, you know, when we're moving through our spiritual ego, our world is kind of closed down and we're just kind of soothing ourselves with spiritual ideas. Mm-hmm. Were swirling in awareness.

We're, we're chasing the next aha. Or how many more ahas before I feel better, or things just magically change and life is always saying surrender. Yeah. Into action. 

Joy: I can't help but giggle as, as you're saying, that I was singing Dooby Dooby doo in my head and I was like, well, that's what that means. Yeah.

Doobie, dooby, and sometimes in moments. And that are short and sometimes in these extended periods, sometimes it's being or doing for a while, and sometimes it's doing in the middle of being you're, there's a mix of both of them. So yeah. 

Matt: Reminds me of my favorite cartoon. Dooby doo. 

Joy: Dooby doo, right? Scooby dooby doo.

Matt: Scooby Dooby do 

Joy: right? He's pretty in the moment. 

Matt: He's very in the moment. 

Joy: Yeah. I love that. So everybody be Scooby-Doo. 

Matt: Everyone be Scooby, do.