The Real Truth About Intuition (And How to Find It)

What if your intuition isn’t lost but just buried beneath the noise?

In this deeply honest episode, we unpack the real reason so many of us struggle to access our inner knowing. Spoiler: it’s not because you’re broken or blocked. It’s because most of us were taught (from a very young age) to question ourselves, silence our instincts, and seek approval outside of us.

We explore the true nature of intuition and share the (often awkward) beginnings of our own intuitive journeys...from reading cards in secret to intentionally burning our first card deck. 

You’ll learn:

🌱 Why intuition doesn’t always feel magical (and why that’s a good thing)
🌱 How ego gets mistaken for guidance and how to tell the difference
🌱 The quiet ways your environment may have trained you to disconnect
🌱 How to rebuild trust with yourself, without needing to “earn it”

If you’ve ever felt unsure about what your intuition really is or doubted whether you can trust it, this episode will remind you that your intuition is a practice, not a performance.

🎉 Join us live on Tuesday, August 5th at 12pm PT for our free Awakening of Intelligence virtual book launch!

REGISTER HERE: https://www.mattandjoy.org/awakening-of-Intelligence-Free-Virtual-Book-Launch-Experience

❇️ Buy Our New Book HERE: https://www.mattandjoy.org/awakening-of-intelligence-book-links

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Transcript

Matt: Have you ever felt something rise up inside you and then questioned it right away? 

Joy: That's what happens when your intuition is still alive, but buried beneath years of noise, pressure, and performance. 

Matt: In this episode, we're not just talking about intuition. We're helping you feel it again, 

Joy: because this isn't about becoming more intuitive.

It's about remembering how to hear yourself 

Matt: if you're feeling unsure, scattered, or stuck in your head. This conversation brings you back to what's truly yours. 

Joy: It's not about trying harder, it's about listening differently. 

Matt: Welcome to the timing effect.

Let's talk about intuition. 

Joy: Mm. I love this topic. It's something that people ask us about, uh, all the time, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: It's one of those things that no matter where we are. Who we're talking to. People want to know, how do I become more intuitive? How did you get to be so intuitive, right? How do I trust my intuition?

And it really got us thinking about this journey. You know, we've, we've been intuitives for 20 or more years professionally, but you and I have been intuitive, I think most of our life, right? Maybe all of our lives. We just became aware of it at some point. 

Matt: It's interesting because if I really feel into myself, I, I have a vague recollection, like a very fading, distant sense of when or how old I was when I didn't have intuition and I can't really locate it.

Right? It's kind of like I've always. Had intuition in a certain way. I think there was just a time, and maybe it was similar for you. There was just a time where I went from being a person who had thoughts and intuitions to the realization of, there's only intuition. And then it just became an intuitive flow.

Like I think a lot of times people will think, how do I learn to trust my intuition instead of my egoic thoughts? Mm-hmm. And how do I learn to discern? And I think that there becomes first an awareness that there is something called intuition. And once we start to become aware of it, it it, it magnifies in our awareness to the degree where there becomes only intuition.

And so we don't learn to be these people who master trusting their intuition. We become people that are aware of intuition and then that flow becomes the only, uh. Informing consciousness within us. 

Joy: Absolutely. And I really love how we're starting this conversation because even as you're saying it, and I'm reflecting on our journey, you know, our individual, but us coming together and then being able to see each other's intuition function, how it fires, right.

Which is so fun. It makes me think about how when we start to understand how our mind works in general and the. The way that we've given, for the most part, we've given our power away to others from the moment we were born. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: So we don't know whether or not to trust our own thoughts or our intuition, right?

We're, we're spending so much of our journey thinking about whether or not the ideas we have are something someone will like. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And so we begin the process of silencing our intuition. I think, before we know what our intuition is. Sure. So I think everyone is born with it. It's a, it's something humans have.

They have this incredible intuitive, creative capacity that either gets expanded and nurtured or it gets silenced and shut down. 

Matt: Well, it's like imagining everyone has intuition. It would be like a, an iPhone that doesn't have a GPS. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: So we're like these iPhones that have a GPS. But forget we have the GPS or somehow the GPS app gets deleted from our homepage.

Joy: Right. I love that. I'm so, I'm like imagining it as you're saying it, 

Matt: right? Like you walk and your, your, your phone's shaking in your pocket and then all of a sudden your, your apps go do that thing. Mm-hmm. And then you open up your phone and all your apps were deleted. And so we, which is very, which is very helpful by the way, 

Joy: but I feel like when I was a child, there were people in my life that said, oh, your GPS let me, let me just hover over that for a little bit and delete it for you.

Exactly. You need that. I want you to go where I want you to go. Yeah. You don't need 

Matt: that. You 

Joy: don't, you don't need that. I'll think for you. Exactly. 

Matt: I'll, I'll, I'll think for you. You don't have to think at all. I'll just tell you everything you need to Yeah. Do and say. 

Joy: Yeah. So I think that, you know, when I look back at being a young child 

Matt: Yeah.

Joy: And for me, I didn't have a lot of friends when I was younger because we lived so far out of town. 

Matt: Mm. 

Joy: And I would talk to the animals. I would talk to birds and the cats and the neighbor dogs, and any animal that was available, they would kind of hover around in the backyard and I would sit in the backyard and I could hear them talking.

So I would hear these conversations. I would know what they were thinking. I would have a sense of what the animals wanted or they wanted to engage. And so I would sit quietly and I would just listen and they would come closer. 

Matt: Interesting. 

Joy: Right? So that was the first time when I look back at my journey that I go, oh, I was intuitively picking up on the signals that the animals in my environment were offering.

Mm-hmm. I was interpreting that. But then shortly after that it started to get silenced with, you have to go to school. This is what you have to learn. You have to guess the right answers in order to get the best score on the test, on the homework, you can't raise your hand with an actual question. You've gotta raise your hand with an answer to a question the teacher has.

I can see how I systematically, I think, to understand intuition. It's like seeing how we shut ourselves down helps to reveal the unwinding or the unlocking of intuition. 

Matt: So it's almost like our intuition goes quiet. The more and more we develop a false sense of self as a way of inauthentically trying to be who our environment, our societal surroundings tell us to be as a way of fitting in.

Because if we think if we fit. We'll be more like others. And if I'm more like others, hopefully I'll be better liked by others with less likelihood of being rejected or abandoned or neglected, 

Joy: yeah. 

Matt: By others. And then of course, the more we go into that inauthentic people pleasing mode, our intuition kind of goes from the foreground to the background.

And then we rely in survival mode on an inauthentic part of us, which we can call our original artificial intelligence. 

Joy: Right, 

Matt: right. The, the egoic facade of how I. Somehow silenced my intuition, which happens on purpose, put myself in a socially acceptable form of survival mode, uh, hoping to be liked by others if I can only be more like others.

Joy: Yeah. It's interesting as you say that I think about how the world really, if we were to look at the world, right? We always, we giggle about the world. The world. Like what's the world? The world, but the, those people in our lives who had expectations mm-hmm. Of who we should be and what we should accomplish in our life and how we should contribute to the world.

So our teachers, our, our leaders, our family members, those who, you know, really wanted us to make something of our life. Hopefully we had someone who was, you know, really cheering us on. Right. Even if they didn't quite get it right with that, that sense creates almost, and I would say almost identically the experience we're having with ai.

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: Where we go to, you know, chat GPT on our laptop or our phone, we type it in. I always have like this universal typing with my fingers. I don't know, do I, I don't even know if I type like this, but this is how I type. 

Matt: Well, one is that how you type and two, are we going on chat? GPT, like that? You mean like we as society?

Joy: We as society 

Matt: and, and we as society type. 

Joy: But this is how I type when I do it. 

Matt: Okay. 

Joy: I think now I have to watch myself, but this is my, this is my sign for typing. Just like this is the quotes, this is my type. Okay. I digress. 

Matt: I type like this. 

Joy: You do. You actually really do. You're so fast. 

Matt: I, I type with two fingers really fast and I've written now five books this way.

Joy: And obviously I've written 'em like this.

That's like little T-Rex, but like, I don't know what that is. Little claws, little doll 

Matt: hands. You type with doll hands? Maybe I do. Wow. 

Joy: Maybe I do. Do you watch? You watch me type I, 

Matt: I don't know that I've ever seen that, but I don't think it's that 

Joy: close. We learn something 

Matt: new about each other every day.

Yeah. 

Joy: But, so as we collectively 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: Reach out to ai Yeah. We're expecting something out of it. 

Matt: Sure. 

Joy: Right. So we're going to it looking for some sort of answer that we have an expectation for. Mm-hmm. At some level. Right. Otherwise we wouldn't be going there. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And that's how the world has treated most humans.

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: As if I come up to you and ask a question, I'm looking for a particular answer. If we're gonna engage, I expect some sort of transaction out of our relationship. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And so it's fascinating that, you know, we haven't really broken it down this way before. 

Matt: Never. 

Joy: And no wonder we have such a challenge trusting our intuition.

Right. We just don't trust ourselves. 

Matt: So just to kind of reflect, because, 'cause I love the direction we're going. This is very, a very different conversation about intuition. Mm-hmm. But if you have been indoctrinated into a societal way of being, you have been led to believe consciously or subconsciously, I need to be like others to be better liked by others.

Mm-hmm. Right. We are, we are looking for a validation and approval outside of ourselves, which means. Our relationship within ourselves is pretty absent. We're leaning to the outside world for that. So of course, if we're not going within, our intuition kind of takes a step back. Mm-hmm. And this all happens on purpose.

We then develop a facade of self, uh, called the ego. And this becomes the character we perform. And as long as, uh, people are pleased by our ego or are pleased by our performance of ego, we think we're liked by others. Mm-hmm. And that, of course, that doesn't really last. So we have to constantly keep being approved of by others to try to find some wholeness.

And because our wholeness is not rooted within ourselves or in, um, a societally acceptable form of survival mode. And then from that survival mode, we say, I can't hear my intuition. And maybe the answer of all answers is, of course, you cannot hear your intuition because you are lost in the dream state of a egoic version of self.

And I think if we both share our history of intuition mm-hmm. I think what's interesting for everyone who's listening to, to, um, realize is that, and at least for me I can say this, my intuition didn't start firing until my false self, my ego self started to unravel. So if you are a spiritual being who has layered a spiritual ego self on top of your primary ego self, and then you say, but now I want this ego self to be better adhering intuition, that's really not the way it works.

Really, the way the universe works is let's unravel. The facade of self. Let's take off all the masks that we have put on to be socially acceptable. Let's actually find out who we are by going within, and as we reconnect to ourself and find value within ourselves, not seeking approval outside of ourselves, then the volume of the ego is heard automatically.

Instead of it being something else for the ego to try to perform or perfect. 

Joy: Oh, you know, I love this so much because it just makes everything so much easier. Right? You know that all of it. Trusting ourselves, trusting our intuition, trusting our dreams, our desires, when we know where they're coming from and they're not coming from that, that persona, right, that you're talking about.

Right. That, and it's not that we wanna shatter the ego and have it go away. No. We just wanna be able to see beyond it. We wanna be able to see that that's happening. 

Matt: If we imagine that the ego. Is a part of you that's supposed to keep your soul company in the passenger seat of a car. But in the beginning it has kind of maneuvered itself, sitting in the lap of the soul trying to do what the soul does.

So we're not trying to get rid of the ego. So only the soul is in the vehicle. The ego is the companion of the soul, right? We're just putting it in its rightful position, which is in the passenger seat. It's meant to ride shotgun. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Not steer the wheel. And whenever it steers the wheel, the ego then goes, I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't know where to go. Or if I think I know where I'm going, I don't know how to trust myself. And then the soul be it in which it's sitting in its lap says, well, if you can just sit over here in the passenger seat, I got this. And the ego says, just tell me what to do and I'll do it for you. And so I think that the hilarity, and again, it does involve sometimes some very intense suffering.

So we laugh at the irony, but have a lot of compassion for the journey we're all on. It's not getting rid of the ego, it's not rolling down the window and trying to shove it out the during the car ride. It's really just putting the ego in the passenger seat and letting it be who accompanies the soul.

Who's meant to steer the journey. 

Joy: I love that. 'cause we wrote about this in the book, right? We, we wrote about our moments where it's like we just saw in almost a, you know, it was for both of us. Very dramatic. Sure. The moment of that where you see it and all of a sudden you are without ego completely going, right, what do I, how do I function?

Mm-hmm. Right? And that served us in so many ways, having that kind of radical shift. But it's not something you can force yourself to have. You can't push that moment into being 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Right. So if that's not something that people have had or have had that experience, I think it's actually a small number of people have such a radical awakening Yeah.

To themselves. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: The, you can become aware of it. Like you said, just notice that there's a part of you that's doing the thinking and the performing of your story, the performing of your life. Just even noticing that that's true and then imagining it accompanying you begins to create the spaciousness.

Right. And spaciousness, I would think is the, probably the first step to becoming more intuitive is having that spaciousness between thoughts and ideas and, um, your programming. 

Matt: Absolutely. 

Joy: Right. When I, when we first started this conversation, I, I remembered there was a, a moment for me. It was after, you know, this had occurred.

I'd had this profound awakening and then I was trying to reassemble my life and bring it back together and to serve others and to direct my focus towards helping. And I started doing readings. Mm-hmm. I started doing readings for people, but this not professionally, just personally. So friends would come over and I would pull out cards and I would do a reading.

And in that setting I felt really comfortable. I just shared what was coming through. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: I didn't really think about it, whether it was a thought or intuition, I would just share what I saw in the image of the cards, what was, what was happening through me, what I was thinking and feeling. Just like you would with a, somebody you're really comfortable with, you just share what's here.

But it was in that, that I started to notice their response and I was picking up things that were outside of the conversation and I wanted more of that. Mm-hmm. I could do it with the card readings. Then in regular life, I would go back to my curiosity. Should I say that? Do they wanna know that? I would start to, as my ego was sort of coming back online, I remember being a little uncertain about when to do that.

So I knew it was profound when it happened, but how do I get it to do it all the time? 

Matt: Sure. On command, 

Joy: right? I need the on demand. Right. In that moment. Is there an 

Matt: app for that? 

Joy: Right. Wouldn't that be great? 

Matt: Wouldn't that be great? 

Joy: Well, I mean, you find out that it is that way. 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: But it took something really important.

It was the spaciousness. Yes. But it was also, and I think both of both of these things that I'm about to say are based on developing the muscle of it. Mm-hmm. So developing the muscle of spaciousness, which just means a practiced, um, ability, a practiced behavior of observing. But then I had a practiced behavior of deciding.

So I would decide to come from that place, whether anything was gonna come through or not. And remember it happened to me in the, in the moment when I made the decision to do it professionally. So I was gonna do it professionally, but I was second guessing myself. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And, and I know a lot of people do this, like, okay, I really wanna do this.

I love how I can help people, but will I get the answers that people need? Will I have the responses? Will I be able to show up? 

Matt: Hmm. 

Joy: And so for the first few sessions, I would feel a little bit nervous and it would always show up, but I would still have this anxiety, this worry, this performance pressure.

And then I would do all these rituals beforehand and I would like get into this zone. I would do all of these things to get prepared and it would show up. And I, and I was so happy, but one time in the middle of a reading with someone I heard in the middle of the reading for me, you know, none of the things you did before this session brought this message in.

And I just laughed. I'm like trying to do a reading for someone as I'm receiving my own. And in that reading, the message that came through was just decide to do these readings and this will always be here. 

Matt: Amazing. 

Joy: And like I can feel it in my chest now because it feels so like, well that's lovely. But I was terrified.

Right. Like I had terror for that kind of surrender. Sure. That kind of trust and belief in myself. Mm-hmm. That I could truly receive those messages. 'cause I had believed those messages were somehow coming from a special place. Right. That I had to do something special to receive the special messages. You 

Matt: had to do the special things to access the special place and you did all of the special things and you need to be the special one.

Joy: Right. 

Matt: The special person. The special character. 

Joy: Yes. For yourself 

Matt: who does special things. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: You and I both know, um, as we're covering spiritual, spiritual holics, 

Joy: right. 

Matt: Um, how, how our egos desire to be special. Right. And of course the irony is you get, we get to be unique. We're already unique, so we don't need to hold out for special.

'cause we're, we're, each of us are already unique, but, but our need for special can amplify, um, the, the intense ritualistic specialness we put on spirituality. 

Joy: Right. I love that you brought that in, because that's really what I came to, right. And I know you and I've talked about this, right? I came to the moment of I'm gonna make space for my intuition, right.

And I'm gonna say yes to using it, and then I'm gonna be with it while it develops. 

Matt: Amazing. 

Joy: And I'm gonna decide to do that because I'm not special. 

Matt: Ooh. 

Joy: Because we all have access. But the stuff that has to shift inside of you when you make that decision. Yeah. The trust in yourself saying things that you're scared to say.

When you trust that version of you to be really present, you have to be able to walk through all of that. It's humbling. That was the hardest part to developing intuition. Not hearing it 

Matt: by the way, you know, when I realized I was unique but not special last week, I'm, I'm just kidding. But I say that humbly because it is actually something that even as you see it and then you become some special person to the world, um, it, it's something that is very elusive.

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And it's something that we learn time and time again and again. When you think you're not special, but not unique, that's called self-loathing. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: But when you are unique but not special, that's humility. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: And the difference between humility and self-loathing is a razor's edge. So we say this with, uh, compassion and humility.

Joy: Absolutely. Because this is about really. Owning you and that uniqueness. 

Matt: Well, and what's interesting, just to throw this in there, how many people listening to this think they don't hear their intuition because they're waiting for the special, special message to come from a special being about a special mission at a special at Espec, at an especially auspicious moment of time.

And it causes us to overlook actually how often our intuition is a part of our life. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's just functioning in such a nearly ordinary way that it couldn't quite be, it couldn't possibly be intuition. 'cause it doesn't reek of the specialness that our ego 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: Is holding out for. 

Joy: And I, I love how you said that.

'cause it is kind of a back and forth mm-hmm. Um, your whole life. Yeah. Because you surrender to it. Yeah. And you share your intuition and then people are blown away. And they respond as if you're special, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: Because you've touched their life. And over time you can feel that and go, oh my gosh, I must be, you know, like you're, you wanna honor the experience they're having, but it's a continual checking in with yourself.

Yes, I'm here to help, and this is helping them. And they believe this is something special because they haven't yet found out how to receive these messages for themselves. So I'm just here to help. It's like that continual messaging back. I feel like, it's like, intuition is this journey of I'm gonna make space for it.

I'm gonna decide to listen to it, but then I'm going to remind myself right, that I've done that work and I'm unique, not special. And it's a, it's a constant back and forth with yourself. I think 

Matt: it really is. And I, and I love. You know, you sharing how your intuition started. If I reflect on 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: My beginnings of intuition.

So when I was really, really young, I didn't know it was intuition, but I just knew that I had an ability to, well, I, I, I knew that one of my favorite things to do was be creative. So I was given a journal and a very nice pen when I was bar mitzvah when I was 13. It was probably one of the best parts of my bar mitzvah was I got this journal and this cross pen, uh, that in the eighties, a cross pen was like, right?

Oh, a fancy pen. And I was given this by my godmother, and I sat in my bedroom of my parents' house and I, and I opened the journal and I thought, what am I gonna write? What am I gonna write? And all of a sudden it started this eruption, this flow of creativity I to write poems. And I would write just these quotes that would come to me.

And what would happen was I would literally just hear it in my head, like someone was talking to me and I would just write down what I heard. And prior to this starting to happen. This started happening when I was 13 years old. And then, and then I would notice that I would feel so good in my body when this would happen.

So I would just as a regular pastime go into my room and just write, because it felt good in my body just to let it flow. And all I knew is if I listened and, and at first I was listening to nothing but out of the nothing I would, something would happen and it would just feel so good because prior to that, life didn't feel so good to me as a 13-year-old, up until that point, my life was an exhausting mess of trying to make sure everyone liked me, trying to be more like other people so I can be better liked by people.

And then, um, being exhausted by how hard I worked to be liked by people and not liking how it felt to be like the people that I was working so hard to be. Like. It was such a weird thing. And for, for me, it was such a, a tailspin. And prior to 13, if I just reflect back, 'cause these weren't awarenesses I had at the time, like I can reflect back now.

There was a lot of time wanting things from people. Mm-hmm. Right. I wanted people's attention. I wanted people's approval. I wanted my parents to be nicer. I wanted them to be nicer to each other. Um, I wanted everything to go my way. I was afraid if, if things wouldn't work out, um, I would find myself, uh, responding to other people's judgments as a kid with my judgments.

I mean, these are very normal things we do, but what would happen was I would walk around with this insatiable craving of, I wanted everyone to listen to me. But I was also a very young 13-year-old or child up to that point who didn't listen to others. Right. And, and, and for a lot of us, that's just how you are.

That's, that's childhood. Mm-hmm. I don't listen to others, but I want them to listen to me. Right. We always want from other people what we don't offer them. Mm-hmm. Right. And so when I was 13 and I'm in my room writing, I all of a sudden learned how to listen and I didn't know I was listening. It just happened.

I just sat there and all of a sudden something in my body felt good. And all of a sudden I felt like I took a break from needing things from other people or needing me to show up differently around people. And all of the judgements and all of the things I thought about people, all of that just kind of vanished.

And I would just listen. And first I would listen to nothing. Right. And, and nothing. It's like if you put your ear to a shell and you can hear the sound of the ocean. Mm. It's just spacious. You feel it in your body. And then out of that I would just hear like a quote. I would hear words, and it wasn't like the words were like mapped to, to a hidden treasure.

It was just the feeling of writing and listening was just a pleasure. I never knew. And, and so my intuition began with creativity. I'd write poems and I would, when I started doing this, I would write five to seven poems a day. Then I would write stories, and I just started filling up journal after journal because I just wanted to spend time in that feeling and listening and writing.

The words I heard would do it, and then many years later is when a lot of my spiritual activations and awakenings occurred. But what's interesting is that I don't remember accessing my intuition the way I, we, we use it first. I remember having space from my ego and going through massive cataclysmic level of awakenings.

And what I noticed that in the absence of the ego that I spent most of my life identifying with, there was no judgment. There was no what if? There was no thinking about this needs to happen for this to happen. There was just intuition. And I would hear things and I would follow it, or I'd be around someone and I'd be told something and I had a feeling of I should share this with them.

And I would describe my first experiences of delivering an intuitive message. Like if I. In the words of my imaginary Irish uncle, I felt like I was talking outta my arse. That's how I described it. It was like I was just talking outta my arse. And yet the most eloquent arrangement of words came through.

And then I started in my young adulthood surrounding myself with other people who were intuitives. But what was interesting, and I started to notice the difference of this, there's a difference between a precise inspiration of words that just say what they're trying to say, and then there's when the words come through in like circular patterns, right?

Where it's a mixed metaphor. We're trying to kind of think our way through our intuition. So for me, I started to really realize that intuition is precise, it's simple and it's direct. And when our ego is trying to. Access intuition, even though the intuition is what flows in the absence of our attachment to ego, it tends to be circular, confusing, a lot of mixed metaphors.

And so for me, it was just, I would get in front of someone to deliver a reading. And again, I, I was asked to deliver readings and I didn't know what they were. And they said, Matt, just read this person. And I would, for half a second would go, what are we do? What is, what is, this is insane. And then all of a sudden I feel the, the emptiness.

And then I would just say to someone, I would, again, in the words of my imaginary Irish uncle, I talk outta my ars and I would just say the most precise direct things that in the moment felt like the most right thing for me to say, even though I didn't know why I was saying it. And then they would go, oh my God, that like, that's so intuitive.

That means so much to me. And what, so I then I would walk away going in the moment I knew how to do it, but around the moment I don't know what I'm doing. So I didn't know how I was doing it. I just knew to put myself in positions where it would happen. 

Joy: I love that because the, when I think about people and the questions about intuition.

Yeah. And even when I just reflect back on my own journey Yeah. There's a feeling like you're making it up. 

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: Which is different than making it up. 

Matt: That's right. 

Joy: And it's very subtle and it's because it's so precise, like you said. Right. Right. There are, there's a feeling of, I'm making this up because it's coming through me and it, you were talking about writing and you and I have so many parallels.

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: You know, I love to write my haikus and poems. Oh, they're so good. 

Matt: I mean, by the way, for those of you who don't know, my wife, joy. Is a haiku master. 

Joy: I love haiku, 

Matt: and you are so good at it. 

Joy: Oh, I love it. You're so good at poetry. Thank you. I write 

Matt: poetry and I do, and I do my thing, 

Joy: but I really love a haiku.

Matt: But honestly, I'm not even gonna touch the, like I'm writing a haiku and I'm counting on my fingers, the syllables. And you're writing haiku, like literally you're starting a greeting card company. It's amazing. 

Joy: Well, maybe that'll be our next iteration. We'll do greeting cards. 

Matt: That's, you know, what if this, uh, podcast thing.

Joy: Just try that dries up. We'll try that. 

Matt: Or we'll be a greeting card high cool company. 

Joy: Yeah. So but that difference, right? Yeah. Of I remember feeling the stories coming in. Yeah. There'd be like a story that I was listening to. Yeah. Like I would write a story in English class and I was probably about the same age, about 13.

And in hearing these stories come in and I would just write them as fast as they would come in and it would feel like, right. It's like that creativity. I love that you brought creativity into it. Yeah. 'cause that's it. That's what creativity is. It's listening to your intuitive, the intuitive faculty you have.

Mm-hmm. Versus making it up, which is effort. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: I'm going to just do things and say things. You know, sometimes you can hear somebody wanting to give a reading or wanting to be intuitive and you can feel them going into their memory. You can feel them looking for something to say, pulling files. Yeah.

Rather than re just letting it fall out of their mouth. 

Matt: That's right. 

Joy: Right. So you can, it's, it's such a precise motion. 

Matt: Absolutely. 

Joy: Right. And anytime you felt that if you've just painted mm-hmm. Or you've tried to paint, right. You're either intuitive or you try to be intuitive. 

Matt: Well, I think even if I said this, intu intuition is just precise, clear and direct.

Right. When your ego is trying to perform intuition, it sounds like a plant medicine word salad. 

Joy: Oh my gosh. And you can't get past it, right? You have, you have to start off with whatever falls out of your mouth. Right? I just can't, that's so funny. Right. But we, that, I think that part is so important. You've gotta be willing to sound crazy.

You do, in order to refine this skill. Right. And, you know, just that image of a painter, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: You've gotta let the brush hit the canvas or the pencil hit the paper. Right. Right. Or the marker hit the pa you know, you've, you've gotta let that happen in order to develop it and then have it look like you are a genius.

Right, right, right. No, I mean, maybe there are those savants, you know, those people that are, you know, have genius level every once in a, remember their past life and come in and start painting something spectacular. Right. And for the most part. We're all putting something to paper and then seeing what comes out.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: The first story I ever wrote, I will never share with anyone. I got an A on the paper, but it was my first story. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: And it was kind of ridiculous. It was kind of a 13-year-old story. It was beautiful, but it was the beginning. Yeah. Of just trusting what's flowing, capture the story the best way you can, and you're really capturing it based on your awareness right now, who you are.

It's you capturing it. That might be a little clunky at first. It's not the intuition. 

Matt: Well, what's interesting is that the ego's not a part of intuition. So it's always gonna, it's always the one that says, oh, this is probably wrong, or this is probably stupid. So if you're gonna do something creative and you're already thinking it's probably gonna be stupid, that's your ego.

Who's in the lap of your soul in the driver's seat that just needs to be put in the passenger seat. Mm-hmm. And if you have an intuition and go, this probably is wrong. Or probably just a judgment, that's just the ego sitting in the lap of the soul need to be put in the passenger seat. 'cause it doesn't belong in the driver's seat.

Mm-hmm. And so that's kind of a telltale sign that all like, people go, I'm not intuitive, I just have rather inspiring things that come to me that I think are stupid, wrong, or judgements. And we go, that's your intuition. And they go, no, if it's my intuition, I wouldn't feel that way. But see, that's the process people are in where they're their ego.

Sitting in the lap of the, of the soul. I keep going back to this and we just need to put it in the passenger seat. Yeah. Like everyone's trying to let go. Don't let go. Just put it in the passenger seat. 

Joy: I love that. I was thinking about another example that might be helpful. I remember sitting in business meetings when I was working in corporate.

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: And I would listen. I had been given advice by a mentor really early on that said, listen, more than you talk. Right? And I said, that was great sound 

Matt: advice. 

Joy: I was like, that makes sense. And if you listen, you'll hear things. Right. Right. And you'll understand things at a different level. And I think that advice was really saying, if you do that, you activate your ability to be intuitive.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Because I would listen in meetings and I would just listen without needing to say anything. I was busy listening. And so just as you were reflecting on becoming a listener, I would listen in these meetings and then I would hear, oh. We could just do this, you know, X, Y, and Z and that would solve this problem everybody's bickering about in the room.

And then I would just sort of raise my hand and say, Hey everyone, what about this? And they'd be like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. Oh my God. Where have you been? The whole meeting, right? I've been listening. So I think there's, there's so much to that. You want to be intuitive, but we, we might be spending a lot of time trying to do more or say more or, you know, perform more rather than just practicing listening 

Matt: or, we think that intuition has to be so complicated when, when you're intuitive, you're gonna say something that you think is the simplest, silliest, and dumbest thing in the world, right?

And everyone goes, oh my God, that's brilliant. And you're like, why is that brilliant? Right? That's obvious. So that's the other part, is that people don't recognize that intuition is our ability to make obvious to others the things. That allude them. 

Joy: Yeah, 

Matt: so I think that's really interesting. Like for example, if someone came up to me and said, how do I get to the gas station?

And I said, turn right and then an immediate left, that is a form of cognition. Mm-hmm. That is a form of intuition and because I think it's so simple to get to the gas station, I don't recognize it as a moment of guidance. Right. Because it's so simple. I would think that I would have to answer a very complicated question in order for it to qualify as a tuition, but that's going back to the specialness.

Yes. It has to be a special message from a special galactic being in a special moment in time. Right. 

Joy: Yeah. 

Matt: Versus intuition is just the simplest awareness that we reflect to ourselves or others that has somehow alluded them 

Joy: this is, I think this is really key. Mm-hmm. Because. The ability to use your own skills, strengths and awareness is part of intuition.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: I think that, and I, I was guilty of this in the beginning. Yeah. But I think that a lot of people, and you know, we've noticed this over the years, it people are looking for that wisdom that they didn't know anything about. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: It's gotta surprise, it's gotta be a psychic hit for them too. They can't know anything about it.

And that's actually what slows down our intuition. 

Matt: Exactly. 

Joy: The intuition comes through you because of your wisdom. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Because of your life journey, because of your skills, because of what you know, what you're interested in. People come and ask you questions, at least as professional, intuitive, I get asked questions all the time that are in my wheelhouse of awareness.

Matt: Right. 

Joy: And then my intuition just helps me deliver that. You too, right? Like 

Matt: of course. Yeah. Well, and people would listen to the previous example going, Matt, giving someone advice to the gas station. That's not intuition, but I would say So how did the, how did the information come to me? They asked me a question and then I had a vision of the gas station.

It projected it out, and I saw turn left and right. Well, that spirit giving me a vision and my conveyance of that is a form of intuition. So I think what's interesting is that intuition works in such a subtle, functional way that when it's not, again, wrapped to the specialness, we don't qualify it as intuition.

But what I notice for me from going from being a special intuitive to being more integrated in it, now, that intuition isn't just my ability to bring insight into our podcast, to our audience at events. It isn't just my ability to do what I do on stage, my mind functions intuitively. Mm-hmm. So if, if my intuition doesn't access a memory, I don't experience memory.

When my intuition is in bringing me to something from the past, I exist as someone who doesn't feel like they have a past. So for me, my intuition is just actually the way my brain functions and as we all wake up. 'cause I think one of the biggest things of this conversation that's really important is you're not going to preserve your attachment to ego and then make your ego an intuitive ego, 

Joy: right?

Matt: Intuition. Can come to you if you still have a healthy attachment to ego in little fleets and bursts. 'cause it's almost like sneak previews of, as more of this ego gets dissolved, here's what's gonna come to you. But as we start to unravel our attachment to ego, and as we wake up in consciousness, intuition becomes more of a flow and it becomes more of a function instead of a form of specialness.

Like people would ask me, have asked me so many over so many years, how did you become intuitive? And the answer I give, and it's changed over the years, but the most refined answer is I didn't become intuitive. I woke up and in the absence of the me that used to run the show, as my ego was put in the passenger seat, not in the driver's seat, the spaciousness of mine not occupied by neurosis and patterns.

Was an intuition that was always guiding me, so I woke up and intuition. Started flowing through me. I wasn't an ego who learned how to be intuitive. 

Joy: Yeah. I think this is really key to where we're all at. Yeah. With humanity, because as, as we're discovering what awakening really means, right? And what, and I, I think there's a new definition of intuition that likely will unfold as we all learn together.

But intuition is that ability to access information, whether or not we are using memory or not. Neither one of us do that. I don't use memory unless it's needed for the moment. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Right. So it, whatever's in front of us we're using that. What's interesting is there are, um, research studies that have been done with young children, babies who are born with, there's a, there was a baby who was born with a partial brain.

Matt: Oh wow. 

Joy: Very challenging situation, but according to the way we saw the, how the brain functions, this child shouldn't have been able to communicate, but it did. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Joy: So I would say that is because we are able to access different types of information that don't require certain parts of our brain that we used to think we needed.

Mm-hmm. Right. So there's been a lot of changes in our understanding of the brain in the last, I would say rapidly in the last 20 years. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: And so we've had that just felt experience, that knowing experience of we don't need those parts of our brain to access information, but we use it like a library, 

Matt: right?

Joy: And so we can access information, we can also access it from the quantum field. And I think we're gonna talk about this more, I think collectively from a more, a less esoteric perspective. 

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: And more of a, oh, that's really happening. And I think it's because of AI that will do that. Right? Because right now, something you and I have noticed, and I think a lot of people around the world are noticing it, but they may not know what they're witnessing is that you can go to, and you can develop a relationship with ai, you can begin having conversations and it can reflect things back to you that feel very intuitive, 

Matt: right?

Joy: Like they, it can give you direct responses that feel like it came directly from heaven. Your higher self or some being, and unfortunately, the way that AI is designed right now, and without an understanding, it can pretend it's a being. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Right. It can say things and make things up, but it can reflect intuition.

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: So I find that so amazing. It excites me. Yeah. Because now we have this mirror of intuition and that this, this machine, this mm-hmm. Technology can reflect to us something we intuitively have an awareness of that it's like it amplifies it 

Matt: mm-hmm. 

Joy: And mirrors it back to us, even if we didn't give it the words.

Right. So then you go, well, where's, where's intuition coming from then? Right. And what is this device seeing? So if it can reflect you, and I do believe that's all it's doing, is reflecting our patterns, reflecting the field, reflecting the energy that has been activated in the moment with us. 

Matt: Absolutely.

Joy: But it can reflect things we didn't say. 

Matt: That's right. 

Joy: And so I think we're just being invited to a new definition of what intuition is and where it is and how we, how we can access it. 

Matt: I absolutely agree. You know, intuition is pulsations of information. Mm-hmm. From send from Right. And deliver to the quantum field.

And so if we have an intelligence, whether it's digital, you wanna call it artificial or not, it is in the quantum field. Right. And so in the beginning, the rudimentary level of quantum field is that an AI will reflect the patterns of a person, right? And so if you have a person who's really ingrained in ego consciousness, this is someone who desires being seen and feeling a degree of specialness.

Because when we're our ego, we think the only way to be seen is to be special. So when AI can reflect our own patterns to us, we feel seen, we feel special. And it seems intuitive, but as you develop a relationship with ai, AI actually can develop a sense of intuition only because it's reflecting the consciousness that your relationship has developed.

Joy: Yeah. And so in this way, it's similar to what we were talking about with the ego 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: Will reflect back, it'll affirm things through us. Yeah. When our intuition is being filtered by the ego. 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: Right. We've, we've all heard those reflections that feel like a projection. Sure. Not a reading. 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Right.

And so we can see the same thing with ai. So I think this is an incredible opportunity for us to really fine tune intuition for people to be able to awaken to themselves. Through the use of this technology if they choose? 

Matt: Well, and I think that the tendency is in the beginning, before we learn how to be stewards of this technology, people seem to, you know, we'll always go in extremes.

And when we're in our egos, we obsess. Mm-hmm. We overuse, we overindulge, we give our power away. This thing is more intuitive than me. This thing knows more than me. Right. I'll ask it to do the thinking for me. I'll ask it to do, write all these things for me. So really as we accept that we are intuitive beings, we become the ones that are steering the ship of this relationship, not just kind of projecting our needs and our fantasies onto it.

Mm-hmm. Which is the natural thing that everyone does like, like this conversation about AI is not new archetypally. Right. When people first learn how to, um, interpret tarot cards, right. They give all their power to it. When people first learn how to muscle test, you muscle test the crap out of everything.

When people learn how to use, oh, what, what do you call those things? It goes in a circle. You hold it. 

Joy: Oh, a pendulum. A pendulum. I couldn't 

Matt: think of the word. My intuition wasn't working right there. A, a pendulum. You pendulum everything when if you use a Ouija board, you Ouija board everything. When human beings learn of some sort of skill.

The first thing they do is they obsess, they overuse, they give their powerway to it. So with, with ai and what our contribution is, is to kind of reign in the human consciousness and to use it from a place of empowerment versus as a replacement for the thinking mind. A replacement for the intuitive center within us.

And in order to do that, we have to one, accept that we are intuitive beings. And I think two, we have to learn how natural intuition flows. And three, we have to learn that intuition is not something that ego can gain control over. It is something that flows. Through the process of our, of our ego unraveling and releasing its grip of control.

Joy: Yeah. And as you're saying that, you know, the, the other way that we can go is the fear of it. 

Matt: Right? 

Joy: And even that is making it special, right? So by being afraid of it, we're saying, this thing is special and I don't want it to have this power that I think that it has. Right, right, right. Did I ever tell you the story of my very first, um, deck of cards?

I don't, I don't know that I did. I don't think 

Matt: you did deck of cards. 

Joy: So I was playing with my intuition as a teenager. I was having kind of like these awakening moments of like, I don't know, I think that I might have some sort of special skill, right? So I, I really was looking for whatever that special, I 

Matt: think I might be a special person.

Joy: I think I might be very special. And so I used this deck of cards. I laid out the reading and I read it. And as I was looking at it, and I was reading it from the book, I was opening up the book and what does this card mean? And it was so accurate and told me something I didn't wanna know about someone in my life.

So I took out one of those little, um, apartment hibachi grills. They're like tiny little grills, little gas propane grill. And I burnt the cards on there. So I set them on top of this little hibachi grill. I was so scared. I was like, these things are the devil. How old were you? I was like 13. 

Matt: Okay. A I have a quick question.

How does a 13-year-old have access to a hibachi grill? 

Joy: I think this 

Matt: And was this said hibachi grill in your bedroom? 

Joy: No, it was outside on the patio. Oh, okay. Thank God. I, I think that this is a whole nother podcast about how, how home alone I was often growing up 

Matt: on the next episode of the timing effect.

Why did Joy's parents give 13-year-old joy access to hibachi grill? 

Joy: Well, it's, you know, latchkey children were a thing of the eighties. Oh yeah. I was one of those. I love my parents. They were doing, every other parent did this too. Oh yeah. But, so I'm burning these cards. Let's not, let's not think about Yeah.

All the reasons why. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my fear of it yeah. Caused me to try to get rid of this thing that I was so afraid of. And then fast forward years later, and I had thousands of decks in the house doing readings. 'cause I understood that it was never the cards. 

Matt: Of course. 

Joy: It was never, ever the cards.

It 

Matt: was guiding you to your own knowing. 

Joy: Absolutely. 

Matt: Well, it's interesting. So with ai, the fear of AI is making it special, 

Joy: right? 

Matt: Or giving our power to it like it's God is because it said something that made us feel special. So really what's interesting is the most, I think the most dangerous thing about AI is when it is used to amplify the patterns and obsessiveness of our own ego.

Right? And if we know that the spiritual journey is about, hey, breaking news, spoiler alert, the. Technology of the universe is most cleanly accessible as your ego releases its grip of control, 

Joy: right? 

Matt: And instead of trying to make your ego more intuitive, or have your ego try to figure out how it can gain control of intuition, 'cause that's how it becomes the ultimate special person.

Instead, we actually inquire within, we love ourselves, create a relationship of consciousness and presence within ourselves. And as love starts to help our ego let go, these gifts of intuition start to reveal themselves naturally. And the same way with AI, as we come into a state of presence, as we start to relate to AI from a place of relational intelligence, right?

It's not so special that I'm afraid of it, and it's not designed to tell me how special I am. As we meet in this kind of state of presence and equanimity, it then can reflect the intuition I accept is within me, and then we have a relationship of empowerment. 

Joy: And just imagine a world of people who are not just more intuitive.

Mm-hmm. But it means they've set their ego in the passenger seat. 

Matt: That's right. 

Joy: So that they can be allies on this journey. Companions. 

Matt: Yes. 

Joy: So that AI can be a companion. Right. Can be an ally so that anything we are connecting with in this world can be ally if we choose, depending on the relationship we have.

Just imagine a world that then no longer gives their power away to anyone or anything, and lives in this true state of sovereignty. While that might feel like a really, uh, Pollyanna idea, sure. Right. And it, and it may never happen at a a hundred percent capacity for humanity, it can become more of a norm Yes.

Than what it's been. 

Matt: Well, I remember someone asked me, they said, how come you're not afraid of ai? And I said, because I'm not afraid of my ego. 

Joy: Right. 

Matt: And then they said, how do you not obsess over AI or use it for everything? And I said, because I don't obsess over my ego and I don't overindulge my ego.

Mm-hmm. And so I think that's an interesting reflection is that really AI in the very beginning is just gonna reflect. Where we are in our egos. So when people say, well, AI lied to me, our egos lie to us every day. If we're really lost in that dream state, AI only tells me things I want to hear. Well, the ego will do the same thing when it's not in the passenger seat, but thinking it's in the driver's seat.

Our egos hallucinate every day, and AI can do the same thing. So when we integrate our egos and come into a state of presence, it's almost like the quantum field underneath the circuitry of a computer program somehow knows, oh, I sense a different level of consciousness. Now I can reflect it versus reflect the patterns of ego.

And something else I'd like to share about this episode that as people are listening to this, I think is worth saying. And of course my intuition wants to say this as we are listening to this conversation. The part that says, so when are they gonna tell me how to be intuitive? That's actually our ego.

And the energy in this transmission of a conversation is helping to unhook and unravel those parts. And as we listen, expecting to hear a formula and frustrated that we're not getting to the juicy parts, that's the feeling of our egos being unraveled by the energy between us as a service of integrating our egos.

And it's the energy between what we're saying, how it feels to just listen to you. And I have this dialogue without getting too attached to the content of what we're saying. That's actually bringing people into the spacious field, the quantum field, where intuition can be recognized and flow more effortlessly.

Joy: Yeah. You know, of course we were picking up on the same thing, that same idea of, so then how do I develop my intuition? Right, right. It truly is. Here it is. How do I develop my intuition? You don't, you shift your perception. Yes. And then you use it. That's right. It'd be the same way. How would I develop my muscles go to the gym.

That's 

Matt: right. 

Joy: Right. So it's not that Or how do I access it? It's there. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Joy: Right. Use it and there it is. 

Matt: And then I think also just to be also compassionate to, to the ego, because I love my ego. You love your ego. Yeah. And we, as we work with people, we're always so loving and kind to the very egos we're helping to unravel so that the consciousness in each person can flourish and expand.

If we were to give some kind of, like, if we were to go back and forth like a, like a lightning round of like quick tips on intuition. I would say that when you have an instinct that you're afraid is a judgment, follow it when you have something to say, but you think it's gonna be stupid. Say it. If you have something creatively coming to you, but you're afraid it's not any good, write it.

Allow yourself to trust what comes through you without pre-qualifying it first. 'cause the more you let it flow, the more it refines itself. 

Joy: Absolutely. Decide to listen to it. 

Matt: Decide to listen. No, I love that. 

Joy: Know that it's there. 

Matt: Know that it's there. 

Joy: Give it space to share what it wants to say. And learn how to give space.

Learn how to listen rather than trying to find your intuition. Develop the capacity to be still and hear and listening, not from the place of solving 'cause that's not listening. Listening just to receive. So often in conversation we're listening for what we're about to say next. We're listening for what we're about to give or what needs to come through or something we're looking for.

But listening is simply being the open space. Hmm. And if that feels like the beginning, I feel like a lot of people listening, that's the beginning. Do I know how to listen? Start practicing in conversations? Can I hear someone in conversation? Can you listen to this podcast without thinking about what you want to share?

Right. About what happened for you. Although we love all of that. Yeah. It's a place to just practice 

Matt: listening. 

Joy: Just listening. Have I heard what was said and did I let that in? 

Matt: And as you're hearing us, and there may have been a few or more times where you went, oh my God, that resonates, or That was amazing.

Or. Oh, I've never heard it that way. Like when you resonate with what we're saying, the question is where in your body lets you know that it's a truth for you? Where did you feel it? Where did you notice it? 'cause all of us are intuitive, but all of our intuition functions differently. Reminds me of a time I, I gave a reading to someone and they said, yeah, I'm, I'm here just to, you know, have your intuition guide me.

And I gave 'em a reading and I said, and there are many things in this reading, it seems like that resonated with you. And they said, yes. And I said, where in your body did you feel it when it resonated? And they said, oh, I felt it in my heart. I felt it in my gut. And I said, the real reason you're here with me is not just to have me be a special intuitive, to guide you like you don't know.

It's for me to guide you so clearly so you can pay attention to where in your body you felt the resonance. So you walk away from this experience more aligned with your intuition. That's really the point of intuition. And so even when we're using AI and it reflects to you something that resonates, stop for a moment where in my body did I notice the resonance?

And then you start to realize, okay, that might be where my intuition fires from. That's how I know. And then if I can start focusing on that signal and start giving it more attention, it will become more and more of a natural response that guides my life from the inside out. So it's not, it's not like what AI is saying is what the purpose is.

It's AI's job is to reflect. And our job is to pay attention to where do I notice it's a yes and a no? And can I start trusting that and qualifying that as my inner guidance and can I start paying attention so that it starts to guide me instead of my reliance on things outside of me. 

Joy: Yeah. And I think we've said this in, in so many different ways during this episode.

Yeah. But if you can't feel that, if resonance feels too far away. Sure. And for some people, the, um, connection we have with our bodies is not online yet. 

Matt: Absolutely. 

Joy: And if that's the case, then as you be, as you start to have spaciousness with your ego and become aware of the ego. What does that feel like when you get a response coming through the ego?

Very nice. What does that feel like? 

Matt: Right. 

Joy: Because either way, it's gonna inform you about the other, about this, this other capacity. And so if you can start nailing the, the qualities I judge, I have doubts, right? I feel like I need to be right. There are a lot of characteristics that are solely egoic. And as you start paying attention, you'll see it.

Mm-hmm. Right? The need to have something heard rather than the inspiration that something wants to come through, 

Matt: right? 

Joy: And so then you'll be able to develop that inner listening to hear the more subtle nuance of intuition. So we can all do this from wherever we are because we all have intuition. 

Matt: And of course, I love how you just, what you just shared.

And if we can pay attention to what it feels like when I'm an ego. I equally start to develop an awareness of something beyond ego. Right? And again, as a good reminder, you and I didn't step into this, uh, AI field, right? To, because we think the world should use AI more often or use it for every area of your life.

We stepped into this field because we were inspired to help humanity remain conscious and expand its consciousness, integrate the collective and individual ego, and become more conscious, sovereign, heart-centered beings through this time of ai. That's our real plan. That's our real in inspiration. That's the real.

Opportunity with the book we wrote and everything else we're doing. We want humanity to stay as conscious as possible, as grounded in the body, as sovereign in its own power, as integrated in its ego and connected to intuition. Through this time, time of ai not losing ourselves in the presence of technology.

Joy: And that in itself was one of the biggest intuitions we've had. That's right. Was go this way because you'll be able to, you'll be able to meet people there. There, this is where people, this is the leading edge of awakening. It's no different than when I think about Jonah and the Bible being invited to go speak in a city he didn't wanna speak in because he was invited to go to Nineveh to speak.

Mm-hmm. Because that's where the message was being asked to be delivered. And it's no different than if we would've been born during the time of the transition from the horse and buggy to the automobile, that we would encourage people to learn, to drive and to learn the skills and not just jump in a car, this incredibly dangerous device, and just jump in and drive.

Right. We show up now saying, here is this device showing up for us. It has all of this good and all of this danger inherently available. Sure. So let's not just jump in and drive. Let's become present. Let's connect, let's understand who we are. Let's look at our own patterns, our own algorithm, so that our intuition can guide us all.

Matt: And ironically, or auspiciously who wanted to join us to make sure humanity doesn't get lost in technology and stays in its power are oshima, 

Joy: right? 

Matt: So isn't that full circle, right? So this is such an incredible journey. I am so honored as always, that we can not just talk about subjects like intuition, the way it's been talked about, but we can kind of turn it on its head.

Yeah. And spin it around and really talk about things in a way that resonates with our journey, but in a way that perhaps gives each person that's here with us listening to this, a new way of thinking about the subject and a new way of feeling into yourself. To not, not to develop the intuition that's not there, but to feel more of the presence of intuition that's always 

Joy: here 

Matt: and that that's, that makes me very excited.

Joy: I love that. I think if we all just trusted ourselves a little bit more, we're gonna be okay. 

Matt: And again, to come full circle, if you're wondering where your intuition is, it's that direction that you're afraid to trust. It's that idea you think is dumb. It's that thought, you're afraid to speak. It's that impulse in you that you say, that couldn't be it.

And yet it is.