Two Friends Build A Movement That Changes Policy And Lives

A simple question—can we light City Hall for Intersex Awareness Day—turned into a global spark. That moment captures the spirit of this conversation with the founders of the Houston Intersex Society: start small, show up, and keep going until doors open. We get personal about how two teens who once sat side by side in a youth group became artists, organizers, and policy advocates who helped take intersex visibility from living rooms to HHS roundtables and even the White House.

We unpack the early days: pizza-fueled support circles, performance art that disarmed stigma, and a decisive pivot from meetings to education when the community’s needs shifted. You’ll hear how a scrappy, underfunded nonprofit survived floods, a ceiling collapse, and a fire while running mutual aid, writing grants at night, and drafting legislative language that led to Texas bill numbers and federal engagement. The thread is persistence—asking again, showing up again, and choosing the rooms where change is possible.

We also go inside tactics that blend creativity and leverage. The Chicago protest outside a children’s hospital used a visceral “Intersex Welcome Mat” to force acknowledgment. Parents call for help; some choose to avoid non-consensual surgeries after real conversations. During COVID, micro-grants kept people housed and fed when identity labels became barriers to aid. And today, a compact community center on a bus line offers workshops, zines, archives, a low-threshold shower, and a few bunks for emergencies. In-person time still matters: people arrive heavy, make art, and leave lighter.

If you care about intersex rights, LGBTQ+ advocacy, medical ethics, or grassroots organizing, this story maps how visibility, policy, and direct aid can reinforce one another. It proves you don’t need perfect funding or a large team—you need courage, continuity, and a habit of asking. Listen, share with a friend who needs it, and hit follow. Then tell us: what’s one step you’ll take to make your city brighter?

Click here for The Houston Intersex Society

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet The Hosts And Guests
• 1:09 Defining Intersex And Founding HIS
• 3:35 ISNA History And Movement Roots
• 6:40 Art, Performance, And Early Community
• 12:55 Building Support In Houston
• 17:15 Shame, Secrecy, And Finding Peers
• 21:29 National Connections And Online Commons
• 26:50 City Hall Illumination And Global Ripple
• 32:10 Policy Beginnings And Legislative Firsts
• 38:40 Scrappy Organizing Through Disasters
• 45:05 Funding Scarcity And Strategy
• 50:10 White House, HHS, And Access
• 56:45 Language Shifts And Archives
• 1:02:05 Protests, Hospitals, And Tactics
• 1:08:30 Direct Aid And COVID Relief
• 1:12:40 The Center: A Home For Community
• 1:17:15 What’s Next: Growth And Culture Change
• 1:21:20 Education, Visibility, And Showing Up
• 1:25:45 Closing Reflections And Momentum

Transcript

Alexis Melvin: 0:00

Hi. How's everybody today? We've got a group here with us as opposed to just one interviewee. And I'm Alexis. I'm with Robin.

Robin Mack: 0:08

Hey guys, thanks for tuning in today.

Alexis Melvin: 0:10

And Kuma. Hi. And Mo. Hello. And this is a little bit different, 22 Sides, but that's okay. It will actually be very interesting, I think. And if it's not interesting, well, we'll just edit it so it will be. Because, you know, we already have people going for the uh, you know, nervousness balls.

Robin Mack: 0:32

Yeah. Stress balls. We have a nice uh assortment of stress balls because we're post-Christmas and pre-uh New Year's, and quite frankly, I was just telling Mo, like, I don't know if we were gonna make it, you know. I mean, we had we had like dumpster fire muscles developed, but this has been a marathon of a year, so we're really happy to close it out with you guys.

Alexis Melvin: 0:53

We're like, oh, 2025's been great. I'm like, where were you?

Robin Mack: 0:57

Yeah, seriously.

Alexis Melvin: 0:59

Were you someplace like on a Caribbean island and didn't come off and didn't have any news?

Robin Mack: 1:04

Any television.

Alexis Melvin: 1:06

But let's get back to what we're gonna talk about.

Robin Mack: 1:08

Back to it.

Alexis Melvin: 1:09

And y'all are part of, in fact, a big part of an organization here in Houston. And what is that organization, Kuma?

Koomah: 1:18

It is called the Houston Intersex Society.

Alexis Melvin: 1:21

Ah. And Mo. What does that mean?

Mo: 1:25

The Houston Intersex Society. Um, I guess we have to start off, what is intersex? Uh, intersex, if you're not familiar with that, is whenever someone's born with an anatomical chromosoma hormona or a goddamn difference that falls in between what's considered typical for male or or female. So basically, like people have heard of the old pejorative hermaphrodite, you know, no one's bull born with full two full two sets of genitalia, you know. Um, but basically, um uh Ku and I actually um founded the Houston Intersex Society, what was that, in 2000, June to 2012? So that was like 13 years ago at 2025. So wow, 13 years a week to leave it.

Koomah: 2:07

We're we're a teenager now.

Alexis Melvin: 2:10

Oh, that explains a lot. So Mo actually came up with the name. This, yeah. But people keep calling it his, you know, like, no, this is not his. This is not uh an MRA.

Robin Mack: 2:22

This is no, that's a great acronym. This yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 2:28

It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about when when you were using this. I was like, and then I'm like, oh, it's the acronym.

Mo: 2:36

I got it finally. And it it was really a tongue-in-cheek because like a lot of the doctors are like, what is this? What kind of child is this? What is the gender of this? So, you know, just way to reclaim it. Reclaim it. Yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 2:46

We'll just claim the name. I like that one. So so we're talking about this.

Speaker 6: 2:50

This and the name also comes from a historical intersex group. So there was the Intersex Society of North America.

Speaker 4: 3:08

Do you want to talk a little bit about that? The Intersex Society of North America. I I should know about that. Every intersex advocate should know about that.

Speaker 3: 3:17

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 3:17

I just know that it was before my time, and I should probably still know what it's about.

Speaker 6: 3:22

So this kind of crosses over a little bit. We're jumping ahead to our archives. Um, so the Intersex Society of North America was really the first organized intersex group. Um, and that was kind of, you know, we talk about the history of uh Intersex Awareness Day and folks coming together. So Isna existed at that time. Um, and so for folks that are not familiar, uh, Alexis is the president of Transgender Foundation of America, and they have a trans history archive, and our organization has an intersex history archive as well. Uh, but there's some crossover there. So one of the interesting things that we found was in uh one of the older magazines, I think it was Transistors Magazine. Yeah, I think it was. There was an advertisement at the very beginning, at the opening, when you open the cover, there was an advertisement, a business card-sized advertisement for Isna. Intersex Society of North America, because they recognized there was gonna be some crossover that when people didn't have community, they were gonna find community where they could. And because our communities share some experiences, you know, they they figured that, you know, maybe they could find some folks. And so and I'm I'm um so the person that started the the organization goes by two different names, and I'm never sure which name came first. Uh uh Cheryl Chase, and then uh they renamed themselves Bolerot. Yeah. Okay. I wasn't sure which one was first, but yeah, that that's the person that started it, and they had a great uh like a little catchphrase that also was the name of their newsletter. Do you remember what that is? Uh was it Hermaphrodites with Attitude or something?

Speaker 4: 5:13

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Say that again. It was what Hermaphrodites with Attitude, HWA. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6: 5:20

And they had that big banner uh at uh the Boston protest.

Speaker 4: 5:25

Yeah, with trans menace was there too. Yeah, trans menace and yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 5:30

So was it painful forming it? I mean, was there all sorts of lawyers involved?

Speaker 6: 5:36

Um So the the forming of Isma or the forming of our organization? Your organization.

Alexis Melvin: 5:43

Our organization. We're talking about Isna what we just did, are we?

Speaker 4: 5:47

I was gonna say, I I do want to talk about ISNA just for a little bit because I don't know if it was Bo that mentioned that in some kind of history of one like uh keynote speaking, but they used to have some kind of hotline, ISTNA hotline. So people would call the hotline and say, hey, I'm intersex, or I want to learn about this, or I want to give a speech, or you know, are we looking for support? You know what I mean? Are you there? And and it was like a support line. So I and that's kind of how this started as. We started as um a support group. Um it was like uh a monthly support group that we had pizza and movies, but do you want to go go back a little bit though?

Speaker 6: 6:21

Oh, yeah, how so how do we go back?

Speaker 4: 6:24

Well, before we started having meetings, oh yeah, how did we oh oh yeah, so uh It all started from Houston French Festival. There you go.

Speaker 6: 6:35

Wow, once upon an art day once upon an arts event. I'm gonna start it there, and then we I'll pass it to Mo. Okay. Uh so I was contacted by Houston French Festival, and they said, uh, we have a 30-minute time slot. Do you have something? And I said, Yes, but I did not have anything.

Mo: 6:58

Like artists do.

Speaker 6: 7:00

Yeah, I wasn't gonna turn down an opportunity. Uh so they said, Great, give us a title and a synopsis, and uh then we'll reach it out, you know, out to you again later. And I said, uh, the title is called History of a Happy Hermaphrodite Part One, and the synopsis is you know, blah, blah, blah, story of my life. Oh no, no, that's a lie. No, it's not a lie. That was later. Mark that out. It was a totally different thing. It was still French Festival, though. It's it was French Festival.

Robin Mack: 7:34

Okay, hold on, hold on. Dyke, take some breaths. Okay, and we will mark it out. We're marking that out. It's cool, but this will help us edit. So, so once upon an art time. Oh, we are gonna edit that out.

Alexis Melvin: 7:44

He said, We're gonna get the note in there, trust me.

Speaker 6: 7:48

Uh, I need to look at my CV. Uh so it was French Festival, but it was a different French festival before that French festival. And this French festival, I did a burlesque act that involved body parts. Um the removal of multiple body parts and genitalia.

Robin Mack: 8:14

Layers of parts, like you're just dressed in parts. And for those of you who don't know, Kuma's been a performance artist. You know, that's why they're contacting him. It wasn't necessarily that they were contacting the intersex society, right? Right. Okay, so you pull up being an intersex artist and you're removing body parts on stage.

Speaker 6: 8:31

So it was it was a burlesque act. Uh and I don't know how much I can say about Well, uh you know, are we trying to keep it PG 13 or I'm not at your recording? Okay, great.

Robin Mack: 8:48

So uh yeah, uh it involved I don't know that we can keep intersex topics PG13. I know. We gotta talk about genitals. It's just gotta be hard. Yeah.

Speaker 6: 8:56

Anyway, well, that's medicine, medical. So yeah, it involved I had uh uh body parts that I was removing, which included genitals, and at the end, near the end, uh it is very visible that I have a phallus, but then at the very end, I like reach under and I pull pearls out of my vagina and put them on and kind of walk off. And people are like, you know, um so at that time I was the Wednesday volunteer at the TG Center. So we're kind of looping back around.

Speaker 3: 9:32

Sure, sure, sure.

Speaker 6: 9:33

Uh so there used to be a trans community center in Houston, and I was the Wednesday volunteer, and I got a message from Mo. Oh pass it over to Mo.

Speaker 4: 9:43

Well, yeah. So I saw like Facebook, like for people you may know, like friends you may know, and I'm like, oh, that's cool, Ma. All right, cool. All right, what's he doing? Parallels, intersex. What? What? All right, hey, uh I I I messaged, I messaged him on Messenger, like, hey, you know, what do you know? I saw you did like an act on intersex stuff. Like, what do you know about intersex stuff? You're like, Do you know intersex people? You know, um, you know, 20 questions. And he's like, I'm intersex. Like, what? I'm intersex too. And he's like, Well, I'm at the TG Center right now, you can come hang out and check it out. And I think that very day we reunited, and then like we founded the Houston Intersex Society that day.

Speaker 6: 10:19

Right. And so when we say reunite, that implies that we knew each other before. Yes.

Robin Mack: 10:25

I think you have to take the story button. So now we gotta go to the original original to where we were teenagers.

Speaker 6: 10:33

Yeah. The late 1900s. Oh god. Well, technically, technically early 2000s. Early 2000s.

Robin Mack: 10:41

In Houston, Texas. Yeah.

Speaker 6: 10:43

Um So we both knew each other at this group called Hatch, which at the time had an acronym of Houston Area Teenage Coalition of Homosexuals. But they kind of nixed that and they're just Hatch now because everybody's welcome. Yeah. Um But we I think we were both out as like queer, yeah. Gay. I think at the time you identified as a lesbian. Yeah. And we sat next to each other every Friday night for years, never knowing the other one was intersexual. At the time I did not speak English well, and now I can't shut up. And I didn't speak a lot, so um and yeah, you didn't hardly talk at all. Um and what's interesting. We both have grown. And so this the group met at a like an open and accepting church, like a queer friendly church. It wasn't part of the church, they just met there. And my parent my adoptive parents found this group somehow, but because it meant a church, they thought it was like an ex-gay thing that was gonna make me like straight. So they drove me 40 miles every Friday night for years to go to this group.

unknown: 11:54

Wow.

Mo: 11:55

Hoping you'd like to pray the gay away.

Speaker 4: 11:58

Yeah.

Mo: 11:58

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 12:00

So I was there for the snacks, really, but how did that work out?

Speaker 6: 12:07

Pretty good. Considering he's got a pile of cookies sitting in front of him right now. Yeah, right.

Robin Mack: 12:12

So every good support group needs snacks. You know, that brings people together for lasting travels is what we're finding out. And and it's kind of sort of universally known that Kuma is an artist because we've been around you for so much. And then and then Mo, you also have artistic expressions. What do you want to say a little bit about that?

Speaker 4: 12:34

Uh just um pretty much um anytime anyone has a art project, I pretty much like help out with it. Or just like an extra or an actor or a double, or like uh I wear like a green suit, you know, like fun stuff like that. So I even done my own stuff like um, you know, just playing my violin and just reading spoken word, a lot of poetry. Poetry mixed in with politics. So that's what I've really um gotten into more lately.

Robin Mack: 12:57

Aaron Ross Powell I think that's important because art really does also bring people together, but some of your guys' offerings was what, a support group and then had uh a few art components to it along the way, right? Beyond Kuma's uh friendship piece that brought you originally together, I think some of the things that I've actually attended were pretty art expressed.

unknown: 13:19

Oh yeah.

Speaker 4: 13:20

Oh yeah. Like a lot of the intersex uh what day shows or variety shows and whatnot.

Speaker 6: 13:25

Yeah, we did I'm trying to remember what year that was. It must have been 2014. The Clown Doctors. We did a a like a mini film and performance festival. It was um Eyes Not Invisible. Right? I think that was 2014.

Robin Mack: 13:45

Around that time, there was a huge want for our culture here in Houston specifically. They're like, okay, we're starting to understand some of these terms, or starting to understand that there are people that, you know, may be differently labeled, but we don't quite understand what they look like. Like we don't quite understand what their life uh lived looks like. Like, can we see them on film? We can we can uh you know, it's different than a drag show where it's just sort of like a a piece of maybe gender, maybe sexuality expression. But what is it really like when you put someone on film and you see a day in the life of an intersex person? Or, you know, uh how is an intersex person expressed creativity, you know, creatively? And I think you guys even did some sort of like open mic situation where people were allowed to maybe be similar to you in the sense of like, oh, this is my group, I'm gonna show up today and do like an open mic situation and be a part of the community.

Speaker 6: 14:44

Yeah, we I remember with at the that Eyes in Us, it was like film and performance. We also did this thing where people could write questions. Oh, yeah, that's like anonymously on these little postcards.

Speaker 4: 15:01

Yeah. I think that was actually at some was it the 14 the 14 Pews? Is that where that happened at? Uh at the time it was frenetic theater.

Speaker 6: 15:09

Oh, okay, off of navigation. Yeah, okay, that's right. Yeah, I think it was still frenetic. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:16

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robin Mack: 15:17

Which some of the French shows were there. And then along this way, you start off with support groups. Was was that hard? Like you had pizza, you had good snacks, maybe was it at the TG Center?

Speaker 4: 15:28

Yeah. It was at the TG Center.

Robin Mack: 15:30

Did you find that the Houston community was welcoming to that? Because trans and intersex people sometimes maybe don't mix. But did you did you find that it was like accepted or or people showed up for it? Or was it like just you two every Monday night?

Speaker 6: 15:47

It's kind of funny because it it was very accepting and very welcoming and very supported. Yeah. To the point where it was mostly trans people that were showing up to support us. It was like us and one other person. Yeah. And I remember do you remember when we showed Spork? Yeah. And the other person that was there looked like the adult version of the character Spork. Yeah. And nobody wanted to say anything. Yeah. Like same hair and everything.

Speaker 4: 16:20

Yeah. They weren't well intended. Yeah. I don't I think it's just a level of shame. Like um that I guess even some people, like, I don't know, uh. And there's some people like you know like myself, I don't uh intersex and trans, but like I feel like I'm not really a uh I feel like I'm the exception. I mean me and Kuma are the exception, but like there aren't many people like that. It's like it's like in the trans community, it's like it seems to be safer to be trans, or or I'm not safer, or more like, I don't know, less shameful. I don't know, as opposed to intersex. I don't know. So it feels like sometimes, yeah.

Speaker 6: 16:53

It is interesting because I think through the formation of this group we found that a lot of people would contact us and like want to tell us their whole life story and then be like, but I don't want to go to a group. I don't ever, you know, I don't want to put this label on me. I just want to be a woman or I just want to do this. Or we've even found trans people that would contact us. Uh one person in particular who she was gonna come out to her parents as trans. And in doing so, her father told her, Oh, well, that makes sense. We had your uterus removed when you were a baby, and then found out she was intersex and was like came to us and like, you know, there's always like a you know, a lot of emotion in that. Uh, you know, they kind of express all of that, and then she's like, But it it's hard enough being trans. Like, I don't need another thing. Like, I'm I'm going to, you know, uh she was like lined up to to have her gender-affirming surgery done, and she was like, This is like my goalposts, and like then I just want to live my life. I don't want to have to deal with this other thing.

Speaker 5: 18:09

Right.

Speaker 6: 18:10

Um, we've also had uh I'm not gonna name names, but we had a trans guy that uh told us that after starting testosterone, he found out that like his urethra goes through his phthalitoris now. Like he, you know, when he got bottom growth and was like, is that intersex? Like what is that? And I was like, sounds like it. And then, you know, he was like, okay, you know, and then didn't really want to deal with it, or you know, apply this other label to it. So we we find that a lot. Sometimes there's a lot of like pain and sorrow and shame in that, and other times it's you know, very like, oh, okay, well, I discovered this thing. Then other times we find people that are like you know, they're excited to like have this new community.

Alexis Melvin: 19:04

Um, and there's some people that essentially are relieved that they found something physical that explains the way they felt or the way they've acted and and and those sorts of things. And some people don't feel that way, but there there are quite a few people who are like, oh, really? Well, that does explain, sort of like the father you mentioned, well, that explains it, you know.

Robin Mack: 19:31

Yeah, and for some people, I think processing medical opportunities, invitations, dispositions, upcomings, like whatever you want to say. I think sometimes in their culture they're they're not allowed to really express it because it it requires support, it requires um maybe a lot of undertaking. And then I think with some of the history of intersex conditions uh when people are born, the history of that has been very unkind. And so even if you were aware of the history, which a lot of people are not, it could be kind of hard to talk about in general because you know it's like it's a tough topic sometimes probably. But it sounds like you guys found support at the TG Center and then like a variety of interactions and you held space for that. And then you started in Houston, but I think from my knowledge you were sort of maybe one of the only chapters or you got a l uh some recognition quite quickly outside of Houston, maybe because the internet was popping or people were finding it. Like how did you connect with people nationally and globally from from from Houston?

Speaker 6: 20:57

Moet Moet started a like a Facebook group.

Speaker 4: 21:01

The Commons, yeah. Yeah. Well um yeah so I was a part of the this this like women's AIS group, uh national group. Um I found it like in the early 2000s like actually maybe 98, I think I remember had an AOL to type in emails and stuff. You got mail Mo. Right. And um but that that group was very limited in the sense of it was mostly women and women with AIS. But like there weren't other conditions. There weren't people of other genders that were mostly there. So I was like well I'll just create something online and created that and that it ended up being a national group and it's grown to be like an international group but basically just people talking and sharing their stories and stuff like that. Really just kind of word of mouth in community and just um really just having someone you can talk to whether it's on the phone or a message or email or you know I think one thing I I turned to is um you know fellowship community. And one thing that's one that like this you know we we live in Houston but we've also like traveled to did we go to Louisiana one time we we wanted we've done stuff in Austin. We've done like little little miniature um I wouldn't say conferences, but little meetups at people's houses. You know what I mean? Like just kind of getting people to come together at people's houses and hang out and just share these stories at, you know it feels like the shame you know people talk about their shame you know and not talk about shame and and someone's home and you know have that openness and vulnerability. So just having I don't know it's maybe more like I guess cognizant or maybe more compassionate about people's struggles and stuff. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 22:36

Absolutely for those that don't know the transgender center was in a home and it just reminds me of like it sounds very Southern like we're gonna share a meal, we're gonna be in the intimacy of homes. So when we talk about nonprofits in centers, they might be picturings or something like this. And and I'm curious when you were at the TG Center and you were supporting one another and you're getting these inquiries that were you know probably deep, probably personal and probably maybe people came more than once or you know they just gave a a little flyby or something it's not easy to start a support group and continuously keep it up. It's not easy to start a nonprofit right so like I just wonder in that like very small beginning what was y'all's motivation? Like did you get like was there a spark of connection once you all found each other like like a fellowship that some people get and they they yearn to like know people like them or did you want to be of service to support other people in these situations or I just wonder like what was the inspiration? Because now we're in you know 2025 and some people jump to start in a nonprofit like quick right and and and then we as activists some of us are very heavy in activism we say well wait a minute what's the intent behind this? You know what I'm saying? But like in the story I just I wonder it it's interesting because it's like some people's support groups only go six weeks, you know they they they hit like three months and they're like oh we did that thing and you move on to your life like what what was it do you think that gelled between the two of you that would that kept it lasting a little bit in that moment before you went on tour and before you got even more um like recogn n recognition's a weird word, but more spotlight on the fact that you were existing.

Speaker 4: 24:33

I'll speak for myself but um I would say just you know like Koma said earlier we sat by each other like every Friday night and not know the other person was intersect. So just basically having that fellowship and letting people know that like you're not alone you know that there's someone else like that.

Speaker 6: 24:47

Aaron Ross Powell Addressing the known isolation. Because it's not even just that um people can't necessarily find each other and I think the internet has made it Oh yeah way easier so you know it it's never been easier to find your your people but it's because the intersex status is hidden from so many people or uh their parents are told to hide it from them. You know doctors will tell uh people that they'll never meet another person like them. And so there's already all of that shame and stigma and then you're told you know so it's this sort of like learned helplessness. You have this idea that you're isolated and that you're super rare and so at some point you don't even really try to find your people. And so it it kind of feels like it's almost on us to be bigger and be louder and to be visible uh for for other people so that they know that they they can be also if they want to and sometimes uh you know for example when Mo was talking about we went to Louisiana there was someone who had reached out and uh she was in the hospital for an unrelated thing uh and we were like all right let's go uh she had never met another intersex person before and was like all excited and you know we drove out there and that was like the highlight was not anything other than like here's two other intersex people the first time she's ever met another person. Then is she draw pictures of both of us or something artist.

Robin Mack: 26:39

So we drew pictures of her and she uh drew pictures of us before you met or like before you went there when you I do think it's nice to say that there's a lot of Houston New Orleans crossover so it's not uncommon for people to like get in the car and go and support artists but it sounds like you were also like very called because it was intersex and also because she was in the hospital.

Speaker 6: 27:01

Yeah.

Robin Mack: 27:02

Right.

Speaker 6: 27:02

And I think that is one of the things that kind of s has historically set our group apart in that there are other like intersex works um but they tend to be mostly digital or like education based um or they you know uh the the group that you were talking about has since changed their name and they do like a yearly conference sort of thing and some online support groups. That's right. Oh yeah we're kind of doing this direct work with people. And I think also as we're a nonprofit but we function very much like a gorilla grassroot sort of thing so that we're we're just kind of doing whatever and meeting the needs where they are do you remember one time we were contacted by like an intersex vet who was homeless and was like oh that's why they wanted some shoes and some socks and then like um they said oh I'll pay you back like no no we're they're just giving you money to get you shoes and socks don't worry about it.

Speaker 4: 28:11

So yeah well no no but also like I feel like I feel like you're also downplaying some of the work you know like just like like the illumination like of the uh Houston City Hall like um I'm gonna need you to talk in the mic and look it back up like I'm sorry did you say there was an intersex illumination at City Hall in Houston Texas was it 2015 uh I where I was like hey you know you know I I always see like the city hall illuminated for different colors right and I think it was October it was like it was dark green for like mental health awareness and then I thought like hey if you think if I ask them if we can illuminate for for for intersex awareness day that they'll do it.

Speaker 5: 28:48

Do you remember what I said?

Speaker 4: 28:49

No is always free. No is free. No is always free. So I was like alright let's try that hey and we we did with we did that 2015 and I think in 2016 we ended up using purple and yellow but 2016 uh we chose green also for the first one yeah because it's natural yeah nature and natural yeah I don't know I like to plant you know plants trees and but like the next era in Brisbane Australia they illuminated their bridges like purple and yellow and then I think Spain did that too. They're lighting uh build buildings and things like that.

Robin Mack: 29:20

So were you in communication with any of those people or do like do you do you know if one inspired the other or they're all they were all a part of the same uh Facebook intersex group.

Speaker 6: 29:29

Uh oh yeah okay we kind of lit that kind of little spark you lit an illumination spark for visibility Houston City Hall was the first government building in the world to be illuminated for Intersex Awareness Day. And now there are other government buildings all around the world bridges that are illuminated. I've even seen places where they're able to get their government space to raise the intersex flag. Oh that's right. Kind of all snowballed out of that one ask. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 30:13

Well and I think that a lot of people wouldn't guess even today that Houston would be inclusive or accommodating or that it would be that easy to make an ask and and easy I don't want to short any efforts, but uh you know it's not like from what I gather, like you had to like bang down the door a bunch of times and you know miss a couple seasons because you were doing it during the intersex awareness season. For those of you don't know when that is when is it is it's after the mental wellness season, right?

Speaker 4: 30:43

Oh intersex awareness day is October 26th and then I guess the remembrance day is November the second or the sixth I I forgot.

Robin Mack: 30:52

Right, right.

Speaker 6: 30:52

No worries, no worries we we have a proclamation that's right October 25th. Because when we did the first illumination it was already booked on the 26th. So we had to choose the 25th. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 31:07

And so a little bit later we were able to get a proclamation declaring October 25th to be Intersex awareness day in Houston because it had a different date than the rest of the and I I chose I chose October 25th too because I was like intersex awareness day is the 26th but you know what let's get a step let's get a let's get a step ahead of everybody in the whole world flexibility is always good.

Mo: 31:33

Those Australians are always trying to up us I'm like no who's awake first really when you go to sleep you know it's the international dateline thing.

Alexis Melvin: 31:41

Yeah. So who in Houston uh did the proclamation?

Robin Mack: 31:46

Uh Turner Mayor Turner Mayor Turner yeah so I I just as somebody who was sort of alongside this at the TG Center with you guys and and living in Houston I wonder how this occurred for you because you know it's like as these things are very accepted and supported in the safety the the nest egg of the TG Center in Houston we didn't have like intersex policies. We didn't really have a lot of trans policies. We were still dealing with like having to get legislation started, policy started in in Texas. So if someone's listening from like San Francisco or a pla a country that was a little ahead a little ahead differently ahead I don't want to say perfect or anything, but like differently ahead in intersex policies like Australia. What was that like for you guys? Was it like you know rough? Was it like going up a hill? Was it like activists were like finally someone to do this part? Like like did you find that there was some resistance in creating space for intersex policy? Because I I might be undereducated but I don't think in like 2015 when you're lighting up City Hall there was a lot of like inclusive support for you guys, right? Like I mean it there's a gap.

Speaker 4: 33:10

I I think I think the following year 2016 I was talking with Kuma like there are no bills protecting intersex kids or any intersex people. So I just kept asking around like hey um and I think I went to a caucus meeting in December 2016 and then Kuma was like hey there's gonna be some politicians there just ask them there. You know what I mean?

Robin Mack: 33:29

And I think it was uh the then state senator Silva Garcia asked her if she was um open to introducing intersex protective policy for children and she was like uh I'll think about it you know um but um I think that was the I don't know um was it your experience Mo because you're such a curious person I mean policy as as a part of independent work yeah a lot of questions and you're not afraid to do that and I love that about you but like was it your experience like was there hardship? Like were people meeting you with the no? Like did you was it was it a struggle to get in with political groups to get support or was it more like everyone has to educate themselves a little bit and show up and and you found it accommodating? I just wonder since you're on the mic about it and looking back like how hard was it for y'all? I mean not like please share your hard story but but like in in reality was it just things opened up opened up opened up and you kept going or was it like you know well God we really had to beat down some doors to get at the table?

Speaker 4: 34:38

I would say I I I would it depends on the situation and the scenario right but I would say pretty much I I think there was a point in time where I made myself wherever I had to be I would go there you know if it was like some kind of screening for political candidates or maybe like go to Austin to do some kind of art show thing like kind of being in the rooms and asking these questions because like when people ask these things like oh what about intersex people but you're not intersex in like not to say it does hold hold power but whenever you're actually directly impacted and you're you're speaking about this and people can put a a name and and they can hear your voice and see your you know see what your ideas that you're that you're saying. And um I think just kind of having that just being physically present I think that it it it did get exhausting. Yeah it did.

Speaker 6: 35:22

It does it's easy to burn out yeah it's easy to burn out I think the root of that too is in the start of the organization. Because you mentioned we started like with this idea of like having social and support groups that we were going to do these groups and people were going to come and we were going to talk about all of our experiences and support each other and that didn't really happen because we found the like we recognized what the need was and so we sh kind of shifted to doing education work. Yeah and educating in universities and to legislators and to just general public. And so I think one of the things also we had this big idea of like we were going to do like a patient advocacy program. We were gonna Houston is home to like the largest medical center in the world the largest children's hospital and we were gonna like be the point of contact and they want nothing to do with us. Even like one year we collected teddy bears do you remember that?

Speaker 4: 36:22

Yeah for Texas.

Speaker 6: 36:22

And like reached out to them and was like hey we're an organization and we want to give teddy bears to kids that are impacted you know and nope. No. So well did they say no or was it just sort of like you didn't have an inn didn't respond to us at all for any reason. Okay. Um and even like intersex awareness day stuff like nothing crickets all the time. Gotcha. But that experience I think of like okay one door shut what's the need obviously this wasn't the right avenue let's go somewhere else. So it's it's this kind of like consistent like if you're getting the door slammed in your face or the door is not opening at all why stand there and keep knocking like just move on to the next thing. And so I think it's been that kind of like nonstop going I think we just got used to it.

Speaker 4: 37:20

Yeah it just got used to it.

Robin Mack: 37:22

And again are you still present to like what was the drive at this point? Was it like um you know did the pushback fuel you instead of shut you down? Or was it at this point still no we do want to get connection to people who need those teddy bears. You know we do want to we're we're not really reaching the families or the or the people in a big way so let's go to the people or I'm just trying to catch the vibe at this point.

Speaker 6: 37:46

At that point I think and Mo you can agree or disagree.

Robin Mack: 37:52

Well and it might be different for both of you right?

Speaker 6: 37:54

I think a great representation of our organization was our experience through Harvey. Because like like our house flooded and then we had you know cleaned it up we were we were still like collecting items for not even just intersex people like anybody.

Robin Mack: 38:13

It was like a distribution uh site yeah we became like the only distribution site in our uh neighborhood for mutual aid yeah wow uh cleaned that up we had damage to the roof we didn't know about the ceiling caved in we were roommates at the time uh and then like a little bit later the house caught on fire oh well you said you said I I can't get anything worse I can't get anything worse in the midst of the never challenge the universe never challenge the universe especially in Houston I I I think a lot of people don't understand that a part of Houston history is like we are constantly on the lookout for a disaster. Yeah and like we have to come together um a little bit through nonprofits if we can make a difference for through that angle but also maybe just like really your next door neighbors because they're the only ones that can get to you.

Alexis Melvin: 39:02

Well the other thing about it is that an awful lot of it has to do with personal contact with people who are in other organizations or who have resources.

Speaker 4: 39:10

Oh yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 39:10

And and I know like for instance you all uh participated in having some discussions with some of the people the caucus had in a forum and the caucus when I'm talking about that that's a Houston LGBTQ plus political caucus.

Speaker 6: 39:24

Oh yeah that was hard to get out of I think it was record I think it was recorded too actually that one yeah well and kind of going back to the to the Harvey thing while all of that was happening and we had posted up in a we were essentially homeless but staying like in a friend's house they had a tree fall on the back of their house.

Mo: 39:43

So we were staying living in the followed you all not just kidding Texas Texas Texas we were living out of their living room and had like Mo had one computer and during the day

Speaker 6: 40:00

I would write grants like on paper, fill them out on paper, use most of the night, yeah. To to do like the digital version while simultaneously we were working on legislation as well.

Speaker 4: 40:13

And a pipe had busted in that house.

Speaker 6: 40:15

Yeah, and then so everything that survived the fire, I moved to the utility room, and then we had a freeze, and then the pipe exploded, and everything that we had left was destroyed. That I think is a you know that like consistent like shit's hard. Yeah, you know, and we are not wealthy by any means. And but uh one of our funders uh recently had uh told us that we're scrappy. Um, that we have this I take that as a common. Well, and you know, that was the thing that kind of set us apart and why they wanted to like support us was that like we are scrappy, we're under resourced, um, you know, we don't have any we're not paid to do any of this. Uh and you know, despite some people's egos, there's not a whole lot of accolades in this work. And if you think you're gonna, you know, win some big awards outside of your little community, nobody cares. You know, like I'm sure you can be grateful for the recognition, but when it comes down to it, like you know, the race is only with yourself kind of thing. So I I think that overall has kind of been a good representation of like our resilience, not only for our personal experiences with life, right? Impacted with lots of trauma, but like the difficulties that come up as like a small scrappy organization. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 41:50

Well, and you know, so just recapping a bit, like you're artists, you're activists, you are maybe going in and out of some employment, you have a nonprofit that you're doing guerrilla style, you have some supporters that are, you know, um verbally supportive, you have some political connections, you have some affiliations with other nonprofits that are kind of working with you, and then you're in a city that has this like domino effect of disaster. And really, really that can just be a tough lottery system on like who gets hit and how hard in Houston when there's that low that was a hard level of a disaster for Harvey. We had so much water, and so actually, like most of the city was hit with that. So, I mean, at that point, you know, uh it it's it's a tough thing to be equal when we're all under disaster. But you guys got hit a time and time again, you got supported a little bit by being in the living room with a pal. And you know, you do have some funders, and you're in that moment looking at policy, no policy, and you're like literally writing it. I think it's just really great that you can look back at those moments and acknowledge like how many layers you're accessorizing with, you know, like that's a lot of hats, you know. Like, I don't think a I mean like some people are just grant writers, some people are just the volunteer coordinators, some people are living their life and then they have a disaster. And then I think that something that's a little different in the intersex community than some other communities is and it's again very understated, is like you're also sometimes depending on whatever your intersex um condition is, is like going through wellness issues like the whole time, you know, depending on what your um I don't know how to say it, like what do we say? Like, I mean, whatever your lot is, you might just appear one way, but then some people have like ongoing medical needs.

Speaker 6: 44:02

Invisible needs, yeah. Robin, I'd like you to uh stay out of my my HIPAA.

Alexis Melvin: 44:10

Well, what else is like a couple of things? Since you've been asked to stay out, I'll go put it on the Yeah, get in there Alexis.

Speaker 6: 44:18

No, uh no, it's true. Um so some intersex variations do have comorbidities of various other health issues. And Mo and I were actually talking about that on the way here as someone who was impacted by like sterilization at a young age. Do you want to talk a little bit about it?

Robin Mack: 44:41

Do you guys share what your journeys have been, or do you want to give like a little nutshell of um like what you're dealing with? Because I think if you've been to an intersex conference or you know intersex people, they're like all very different sometimes.

Alexis Melvin: 44:56

Let me make one comment while before going to that. Probably abbreviated.

Robin Mack: 45:01

Yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 45:02

Because you know, one of the things is like when all this stuff happens, for instance, TFA tries to support the broader community, which includes intersex, et cetera. But like with Harvey, we just have you know a limited amount of money. And so, you know, we tried to put grants in to keep people alive more than anything else. I and I know the the person you were staying with, uh, we helped fund part of the recovery of their house and and these sorts of things, and then several others. And so, you know, it it it's like in the broader community there is a lot of sharing that goes back and forth that I don't think a lot of people see because we're very quiet on anything we do. And Kuma is on the TFA board.

Speaker 4: 45:42

And then also what you mentioned about about hats. Like, I mean we've given uh uh We've given uh what intersex policy advising at the national level at what uh HHS or Yeah, and that that was birthed out of uh the policy that we did uh with Sylvia Garcia.

Speaker 6: 46:03

And I think in doing that, that's also kind of what led to the White House round table, yeah, invitation to the White House, uh the HHS stuff, um, and then from getting our foot in the door there, we uh then connected with a rare disease group and went and did more policy stuff, uh Advocacy, yeah. Advocacy out out in DC.

Robin Mack: 46:34

Wonderful. So so the Transgender Foundation of America has been around uh a lot longer and your umbrella underneath that. And during Harvey, we did some direct gives to keep people uh like literally afloat.

Mo: 46:51

And head above water, yeah, exactly like a lot of water. And gosh, we've got we've been through a lot at this table.

Robin Mack: 47:02

And and I think just something to under like to underscore, like some people in Houston find their momentum through getting back out there in advocacy because there is something to do, because you have to keep going, because it at some point you know, it like becomes a part of your identity. It becomes a part of your like, I now I want to get it done. Like whatever it is, like I want to write that policy, or I want to get back to Sylvia Garcia. And and then we like check in with each other because there is pushback from advocates with each other. There is, you know, the imperfect, like not everyone's inclusive. But but then there's also that like, okay, well, you made that you had the courage to show up for a political panel that the caucus got together, that took a lot. And then you had the courage to ask and talk about intersex um policies needing to be had. And then you had these politicians that took a lot to get in their seat to listen to you guys in front of community. And so it's kind of like your ass is on the line now, you know, to keep showing up. And and and I, you know, from an outside observer, it's just like relentless in like the courage it takes to show up and to be there. And for you guys, it was never I I mean, let me not speak for you, please correct me, but it's like, it's like, it's like the thing that the Transgender Foundation of America has in common with the intersex society is like we're not about the photo op, like far from it, right? Like we're about like getting in elbow deep and like doing the footwork and getting real personal with people, but also following it up in the actions. Like you guys were like action, action, action. But there was like a small amount of activism that kept going out of Harvey. Like it went through Hero, it came out of Harvey, and it just sort of like kept going. And so there's like that drive. Because if I was just a listener listening to this, I'd be like, like, dang, was it because of funding? No. You know, like, like, dang, was it because they're just like ego whores? Like, no, like dang, there, but is there a level of narcissism where people are like, you know, get Kuma out of a photo or get Mo out of a photo? Like, it's just not that vibe. It was like you guys were really like boots on the ground in networks of conversations, and you I just it's always good to like look at like what was the juice that kept it going, you know. But you know, Mo, you're talking about getting back to Sylvia Garcia, Kuma, you're talking about like literally writing the policy. Alexis, I know that there have been some calls between you and Kuma on like how to shape words, right? And like what to leave out, how to how to perfect it. Like, I mean, sometimes it's about who you surround yourself with that just keeps you going and not necessarily about endless resources you're being fueled from, right? And so in that moment, if you guys are like no, there are no resources.

Speaker 6: 50:06

I think it's also uh we have one funder.

Robin Mack: 50:09

Okay.

Speaker 6: 50:10

Like there is uh I I and I think it's important to note that. So like uh of LGBTQ plus funding, trans groups get one percent of that. Intersex groups get less than one percent of that one percent. So worldwide, there is only one intersex specific fund that every intersex organization in the world kind of vis for. There are other kind of smaller groups, there's uh most of the like larger intersex organizations, they're funded by foundations and like individual donors. Um we don't have that. And we're, you know, kind of like what you said, but we don't have professional grant writers. It is me coming from my only background being writing arts grants, which I had no training in knowing how to do that even.

Robin Mack: 51:05

And did you have college training for the people who are listening? Did you have leadership program training and communication training for people listening?

Speaker 6: 51:13

I think uh what I do have, and I think Mo has this also, is an uncanny ability to recognize opportunities. And uh like okay, so uh I'm holding a little booklet that I brought, and in that is a pen, and the pen says White House initiative on Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians, and Pacific Islanders. I kind of pushed myself into that. I saw an opportunity and like was like, I'm gonna go to this thing and make connections and like as like the intersex person, right? So it's always like being able to kind of find the little things. The same thing with that like rare disease group. We were talking, we're like, why has no intersex group been a part of this? Yeah. Right.

Robin Mack: 52:02

So you're asking, is intersex included in the conversation? And you're making sure that someone that is actually intersex identified shows up and makes sure to talk, whether it's you two or people in that area, or was it always you two?

Speaker 4: 52:18

I think it's probably about just either me or you or me or both of us. Okay.

Robin Mack: 52:24

There's no staff, there's no team at this point, there's no like, you know, uh let's split it up with five people. I mean, I'm just there's parts where you guys are treasure. Yeah, thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Jennifer. Hey, everyone needs a good treasure, okay. But I mean, it's it's important because uh this these nuances could be lost on some people who don't know, but then these it could just be assumed because there are larger organizations that have this. So I'm just pointing it out. Because you two have been in the blur of it all. I don't think you know how much you actually shoulder.

Speaker 6: 52:56

But I I think it's also so important to highlight that it's just us.

Speaker 3: 53:03

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 53:03

You know, I think when we say organization, people have this idea of it's like 50 people, it's 100 people. We're and I've I've kind of said this before like we're two nobodies from nowhere who have kept up and in many ways surpassed these like heavily funded organizations full of people because we're not playing the like nonprofit game. We're not paying paying people, we're not trying to please funders. We could do whatever we want. We're not selling the merchant within reason as long as it fits in, you know, as long as we can keep our 501c3 status, right? Uh as long as it's legal.

unknown: 53:43

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 53:44

So there's that, and I think I think maybe for Mo, the arts opportunities that have come out of it, right? Being on stage and doing things in front of people, it builds you up so that you're a little bit more willing to be out there. You're like the external and you're less embarrassed to like to go up and ask a politician a question. Oh, yeah. You know, if you can get up and be on stage and tell your whole life story, well, psh this is nothing. And we said the same thing about uh our experience with Harvey, right? And when I I told you, if you can make it through this, right, you'll be able to look back at this in the future when you go through something difficult and be like, oh, I made it through that. This is nothing. Right.

Speaker 4: 54:34

I mean, the beginning of the uh what 2017, I think in March they uh what that was when the first intersex bill was uh released in Texas. Yeah, with Garcia's uh SB 1342, Cynth bill 1342. And that was the first known intersex bill introduced by intersex people for intersex people.

Speaker 6: 54:52

But there was one bill before there was one bill before, and that's but it was then intersex led.

Speaker 4: 54:56

And that's one thing I want to stress now is don't make assumptions. Like people you think are enemies may not be your enemies, but they probably are. But anyway, but um but uh If they look like an enemy, chances are I think it was 2016 uh Representative Clary uh from the uh House of Representatives in uh like Mike Penn's country, was it Indiana? Yeah. Yeah. Uh he introduced uh an intersex protection bill in 2016, and then we did that in 2017.

Speaker 6: 55:22

Because of the MC case.

Speaker 4: 55:23

Yeah, because of the MC case.

Speaker 6: 55:24

And the MC case, do you want to explain what that was?

Robin Mack: 55:27

Wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry. So that sounds national and then also local in my mind. It like are you jumping back and forth?

Speaker 6: 55:34

No, no, it's a 2017 of the. So what Mo was was talking about was the very first bill um that was a state bill, was not in Texas. Okay. It was in Indiana, and it was actually introduced by a Republican because he had heard about what's referred to as the MC case. And Moe's gonna explain what that's I think.

Speaker 4: 55:57

Yeah, so basically the um I guess their their staffer uh had noticed that um in some magazine, I forgot what it was called, but it talked about how this child was was specifically adopted because they were born intersex with intersex condition and they wanted to keep their body, you know, just just whole and not have to alter their body to whatever medical standards wanted them to look like. And um and basically when when these people adopted this kid and got the kid, the baby was actually they performed the surgery on the baby without the consent. So uh so basically like you know, I guess they they went to court, but actually settled outside of court. Uh but um yeah, that was uh I mean that that's a model a model case for that, but uh I don't think the policy would have impacted that.

Robin Mack: 56:42

I mean, it's but now but uh so nationally that was the first case about intersex people, is that what you're saying?

Speaker 6: 56:49

It was the first bill uh uh that was a state bill that was introduced by intersex people before intersex people. Wow, not that one. Oh the other one. Oh, that's right, yeah. So in Texas, we as individuals, not as our organization. Independent work. Right.

Mo: 57:07

Independent work. Hats are off, different hats on.

Speaker 6: 57:11

Introduced the first intersex protective uh bill in Texas. Um and then later. Who were you working with? That was Hernandez.

Speaker 4: 57:26

Oh no, oh the the first the first bill was SB 1342, that was Garcia, uh Silva Garcia.

Speaker 5: 57:31

Was it?

Speaker 4: 57:32

Yeah. I actually I have I emailed you the list of everything and then.

Robin Mack: 57:36

It's a blur. It's a blur.

Speaker 4: 57:37

Yeah. Uh there's been several.

Robin Mack: 57:38

We don't want to leave anybody out.

Speaker 6: 57:41

We introduced the very first federal intersex protective bill, and that was introduced by Garcia. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 57:48

Around about what year was this, do you think? Dang. Was that 2019? So it's after her.

Speaker 4: 57:53

Was that 2019 or 2018?

Speaker 6: 57:55

Well, because this would have been the third year to that she would have introduced it.

Robin Mack: 58:00

Okay. So it it was a progression, and for those of you who don't know, especially in Texas, to get something even introduced is a big deal. Is that right? Like because there's a whole process of the thing.

Speaker 6: 58:12

We got a bill number the very first time that we drafted a bill. Oh, yeah.

Robin Mack: 58:18

Which is not common.

Speaker 6: 58:20

No. No.

Robin Mack: 58:20

Okay.

Speaker 6: 58:22

It hasn't passed yet. Yeah. But it's out there. It also hasn't been it hasn't made it far enough to have a lot of. Oh, it hasn't even gotten a hearing at all, yeah. So it's it's not necessarily that we have opponents, it's just that especially on the state level, because meets every other year, and there's just a massive amount of legislation.

Alexis Melvin: 58:48

In Texas, the standard joke is since the legislature meets every two years for 244 days, they said it was really a typo supposed to meet every 244 years for two days.

Robin Mack: 59:00

Well, it so we're coming out of Harvey, you're that you're seeing a national case, and then there's policy. Go ahead, Alexis.

Alexis Melvin: 59:07

Yeah, no, what I was going to say is one of the big things I think is that basically you haven't shied away from taking the true political approach, which is how you get these things really changed. And and I know one of the big things about it too is that you have to make sure that for certain grants and then the political approach that you're solid when they start checking to make sure they're verifying everything. And one of the things that I think TFA was able to do that I was really proud of is when that needed to be done, we have good enough numbers and we've been in uh existence long enough that we can just sort of lend that to it. And that has helped several times, I know, where someone's like, Okay, you know, we want to make sure this isn't like a two year organization or a three day organization or anything. And we go give them our history from 1965, and they're like, Wow, you all been. Around longer than we have. And it's like exactly. Or they want to make sure that we're fiscally sound and our books are editable, are editable, auditable, and things like that, which have nothing to do with getting it done except they have everything to do with getting it done. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Robin Mack: 1:00:16

Well, and it also has a lot to do with the fact that TFA, after having a large standing, you, Alexis, are the president of the Transgender Foundation of America, but you personally do a lot of activism yourself and you are endlessly making introductions for people and pulling them into a political conversation if they want to make a difference for themselves or community. Like you're you're very out there for being willing to have those conversations and champion actually what the process can be. And I think that that is a large opportunity within itself when people are wanting to make a difference, but they don't know how to get the policy, the words, who to talk to, you know, whatever. Like, I mean, there was definitely some bridge building that happened where, again, it can look very organic because it's who you three people are and you don't even know like the water that you're swimming in and the air that you breathe. Whereas most people would be really afraid to talk to a politician or not know a politician. Like, I mean, if I ask five of my friends right now, like who's your representative, they're not gonna know. And and and then, you know, as we're ending 2025, I think that even kids that are they're more connected to their social media and political causes now for trans and intersex um policies or even hating trans and intersex people that they've never even met just because of the constant talking rhetoric. So I mean to me, I'm sitting here like I lived through it, but I didn't know that that was the first-only case. Or, you know, I I watched you guys take it to the Texas legislature, so I knew it was new here, but I didn't know nationally, right? And and I think now nationally we have so much conversation about trans and intersex people that it's it's hard to remember that it took like a lot. It took something to get that momentum going. It took something to get those bridge builder, bridges building.

Alexis Melvin: 1:02:19

Um and again, I think the biggest thing is to make sure that something doesn't stop momentum. I mean, if you're doing something and it's rolling along, it's all looking really good, and then someone says, Well, we're gonna need this and this and this and this and this, and you're like, um where do we where do we go? Then then basically we send it in the next day and Jennifer sends it to them.

Robin Mack: 1:02:39

Right. And not to get into your HIPAA, but like like the like the I'm always impressed by how much gets done while grappling with our wellness. And and and I mean some people have hangnails and they don't go to work, right? Like you guys, you guys are managing different employment strategies while managing guerrilla nonprofits, while managing like in-and-out hospital visits and uh and health dips. So I just think that it's too easy for some people to say, I don't feel good today. I guess I can't make a difference. So therefore I should just stay like out of the conversation. Like, no, it's like I personally find it very inspiring to see that no, it really was about just keeping in motion and putting one step in front of the other. But you did it together. You had that camaraderie. And I'm curious if like you made an intentional um decision about keeping it with just the two of you, or was it just that maybe a lot of people weren't interested in being a part of the movement um visibly or even behind the scenes? Or how did it just be two? Was that like a conscious decision?

Speaker 6: 1:03:54

It's hard to get people to do this much work for free. Yeah, there you go. Okay.

Robin Mack: 1:03:59

Okay, there you go. Yeah. There you go. Okay. There you go. I mean, Alexis, what do you do you think it was a personal decision of you or a values or an org mission to align with the intersex community? I mean, because a lot of people in other states do see a divide between the trans and the intersex community.

Alexis Melvin: 1:04:21

Well, you know, here, and you know, I can just talk about here, uh, we go back and forth as to whether it's included with the trans community or not. Um like when I you know talked about the caucus, a question was asked about whether we should include the intersect community when we were adding all the letters to it. And I think one of you, maybe both of you, said, uh really not.

Speaker 6: 1:04:45

And I think it's it's an issue of like if you're gonna represent us, we haven't seen it. Yeah. Uh so if it's one thing to just slap the letter on. Which is what was done with the same thing. If you're gonna be intentional about it, then you're actually gonna have to bring us in and listen to what we have to say.

Robin Mack: 1:05:04

And I I do wonder from the speech. Yeah, yeah. Say that clear for sure. Money, money. But and and do you do you two want to say what your age actually is for where you're at in life right now?

Speaker 4: 1:05:20

I'll go 42.

Robin Mack: 1:05:21

Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 6: 1:05:22

How old? It's a difficult question. 42, 42. Somewhere around the same.

Robin Mack: 1:05:31

And Alexis, you've you've you know seen the history of TFA a little bit longer. How old are you at this point?

Alexis Melvin: 1:05:39

What?

Robin Mack: 1:05:40

How old are you? Never asked.

Alexis Melvin: 1:05:41

How old are you at this point? Well, it depends. Do I get a cake?

Robin Mack: 1:05:45

Yes. You recently did. Yes.

Alexis Melvin: 1:05:48

No, no, I mean a new cake.

Robin Mack: 1:05:49

Okay, you want more.

Alexis Melvin: 1:05:50

If I let everybody know that I'm 77, do I get a new cake? Okay, so you're 77. I like cake.

Robin Mack: 1:05:55

Well, I was just piggybacking on like what Delilah was saying is like I both of you have um seen the archives that we have for intersex and the trans archives, probably more than me at this table. And I'm just curious in the history of the um Gulf Coast when the trans um orgs were starting and they were writing some of their medical papers for testosterone and estrogen and what they were talking about in their support groups. Were there intersex people included then along the way? Did they did you see any like previous overlap? Because it might just be really easy for Kuma and Mo to say we didn't see people our in the community during our time, but I mean, like overall in the creation of how far our our archives go back, I wonder if we saw any intersex people being included.

Alexis Melvin: 1:06:47

Basically I think there were well, there were definitely intersex people being included. Okay. However, there was no uh real specific recognition of it or with anything else done to it. I mean, it was purely uh trans related if you look at Ericsson and those sorts of people.

Robin Mack: 1:07:06

And transgender in itself is kind of a newer uh label, is that correct? Like we didn't always use the word trans.

Alexis Melvin: 1:07:13

We use transgender starting in 1973. I mean, all sorts of people have done research to say, well, it existed before that. Well, yeah, but we didn't use it.

Robin Mack: 1:07:22

So and intersex is that a newer label as well? Or because I also wonder like maybe people were around, but they just changed the labels.

Speaker 6: 1:07:32

So in our archives, some of the earliest uses that we have uh predates like 1940. Right. Um, however, the further back you go, you start to see where intersex was used to mean bisexual, um, which I thought was really interesting.

Alexis Melvin: 1:07:52

Then they use hermaphrodite for what we consider intersex. Right.

Speaker 6: 1:07:56

So a lot of it kind of shifted to hermaphrodite and pseudo-hermaphrodite language. Um, and then we also apparently there was some indecisiveness where we've also seen the word bisexual use for intersex as well. Oh right. Um so a little confusing.

Alexis Melvin: 1:08:15

And it always has been. I mean, with transgender, for instance, that was totally confusing. I mean, there were people who would tell you definitively it meant this, and then six other people would tell you it meant something totally differently. And nobody was right or wrong because there really wasn't a solid definition. It wasn't like you know, Congress had done something or whatever.

Speaker 6: 1:08:37

And for our community, we've also seen shifts in language where uh more medicalized terms, so uh, you know, there's DSD, which uh originated as disorder of sex development, uh, which a lot of people, myself included, do not like because it implies that we're disordered and need to be fixed.

Speaker 5: 1:09:01

And so people were like, okay, well, we'll call it difference of sex development.

Speaker 6: 1:09:06

You can call it whatever you want. I still know what it means. Uh and then we've seen a shift now, uh a moving towards variations in sex characteristics. Yeah. Uh and I think even in policy, it's changed. Even in policy, that shift in language. Um we still use intersex as a name. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:09:30

And at this point, you know, we're looking at like say 2018, we've got Illuminations, we've got the internet, we're connecting locally, we're collect connecting nationally and globally. Like some countries had some policies for intersex people. And uh I mean, it seemed to me that around then and maybe before, there was a kick-up in like conferences. So there was like sort of more of a general masses that would gather and talk about these things beyond doctors, like lay people could go to conferences and meet each other. Is that how you guys got on the conference train, or was it like not uh conferences have been around since the 60s? We just started going. Like, I mean, what do you think?

Speaker 4: 1:10:16

Um, I don't um I'll speak for myself, but I would say the the cop just going to the AIS DSD National Conference, like in what is it, 2010? That kind of oh that didn't really do that didn't do too much because I didn't do anything. Um I guess I don't know, actually. I don't know, but I don't know what kicked it off, yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:10:36

For me, uh I know that you you were going to the conferences before I was, and before we founded the organization. There were a lot Hello Street and Hello Well, yeah. And when I started going was when we started to see the conference shift to be a little bit more inclusive, more queer and trans inclusive, yeah. At one time, because it was it used to be like women with AIS, it was like AIS specific. And if someone transitioned, they kicked them out of the group because they were no longer a woman with AIS. Yeah. And so they they really shifted to uh kind of like what we talked with Hatch, where like they kept the the acronym but just kind of dropped the meaning, the meaning.

unknown: 1:11:29

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:11:29

And we definitely met several people that we've reached out to and and kind of found support with. I think one of the things that has always been a little different for us, and I think it it has impacted our work in legislation and and the work that we do with community, is that it is so radically different being in the South and being in Texas, that like what is working for people, intersex groups in California, those politicians and all of that, like it's it is a totally different country here.

Robin Mack: 1:12:09

Um and so we how how so would you say um it's it's easier, it's harder, or it's like how's the grass greener or less greener over there in comparison? And I I think it's an important question because in Houston, Texas, uh you know, I don't know about you guys, but uh almost almost all of my friends have moved, you know, and they move in search of this promise that other states are other cities are better and more inclusive or sanctuaries, you know, cities and things. And I mean, have you found that people in other states have it better for the intersex community than Houston?

Speaker 6: 1:12:54

I wouldn't say it's necessarily any better, but I think they have a better facade that it's better. Um because uh nationwide there's no protective legislation anywhere. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:13:08

Okay.

Speaker 6: 1:13:09

So we're all still in the same boat. Yeah. It's just, you know.

Robin Mack: 1:13:14

Well, because I know in the trans community it might be you might get better employment or hormone access, or um maybe just the culture is a little bit more accepting, or you can sort of blend in a little bit without all the rhetoric. And I'd imagine that intersex people might want some of those things, but also might need a little bit more consistent medical access. Whereas like Texas doesn't really have a lot of programming um to support people who are like underemployed or LGBT identified, you know, that sort of thing. Do you think that there's some ups in other states that are actually happening for the intersex community?

Speaker 6: 1:13:57

I would say one of the big differences and uh is let me see how how they even say this. There are some people within our community who are intersex only when they want people to know, right? So they can pass as um Indosex, which means not intersex, cisgender, straight. Um so like there's no visible variation. Um and a lot of times, like these movements we see they're led by like these very like hyper feminine, then white AIS women. Uh and so in some ways it's much easier for them to gain access to media or to legislation to get people to listen to them. They have a very like Barbie appearance. Um, a lot of the AIS women are models or former models kind of stuff. And then there's us. Uh, we are not conventionally attracted. I think one of the one of them was Miss America. Yeah, one of them. One of those Miss America moves.

Robin Mack: 1:15:14

It's okay to it's okay to be unconventional.

Speaker 6: 1:15:17

Yeah, you know, uh so we kind of hit all of the opposites there that I think just in general, uh kind of and I I know this is all audio and people cannot see me, but I am a very alternative appearing person. So a lot of times like Mo gets to be like the face that people meet up front, and then I come in.

Speaker 3: 1:15:46

Uh-huh.

Speaker 6: 1:15:47

Uh so I I think that's one of the differences. That is it a hindrance? It hasn't been a hindrance, but it just means we have to work a thousand times harder to get our foot in the door.

Robin Mack: 1:16:05

Uh and that foot does get in many doors. I mean, you Kuma, I don't know about you, Mo, but I do know that Kuma has been to the White House to, you know, talk at meetings and and uh uh be a part of some gatherings. Have you have you gone together?

Speaker 4: 1:16:25

Uh wait um I've done like the virtual aspects of those, but I haven't gone um I haven't gone uh in person to the White House for that purpose. But you went to HHS. Yeah, I did HHS had what is it, the uh Office of Assistant Secretary of Health was uh was uh uh Rachel Levine, I believe. I don't know, Rachel Levine, she she uh um and others uh had a like a pal, like a round table and they asked us different questions. And I think one of the questions I asked, you know, they didn't expect to like have provided training on how to on continuity of care for intersex people within ICE custody or BPP, uh the uh Bureau of Prisons and I forgot, probably whatever it is, but yeah. And and they said no. They're like, oh no, we hadn't thought about educating them about you know intersex people because intersex people are everywhere, you know.

Robin Mack: 1:17:11

And here you are just continuously saying, Do you have care for our people? And and and they're meeting it with no, but maybe we should, or let's look at that. No callbacks, no emails. Yeah. And and Kuma, do you want to speak on some of your White House interactions or um Shrug, shrug. You don't have to.

Speaker 6: 1:17:41

I there's some things in life where if you have the opportunity, uh it doesn't matter you know what, you will find a way to make it happen. Um that was one of the things. It was uh I had kind of decided those years that anytime we got an invitation to the White House or to HHS or anything in DC, I was gonna find a way to make it there. Um and sometimes that looked like flying in the night before, waking up in the morning, going to a two-hour meeting, turning around and flying back to Houston. Uh because in doing that, like if you're constantly the person showing up, uh especially if you stand out like I stand out, you are memorable and they will keep inviting you. Uh, and that is how we kept having, at least with prior administrations, having that access was by constantly being there and showing up. Um, and there were times that like there would be other intersex organizations there, and like after the meeting, they would like, oh, we're going out to lunch, blah, blah, blah. And it was like, I gotta get on a plane and go back to Houston. Uh, and kind of this like making sure that people understood that like that it was a very intentional thing. Uh yeah. I know I s I I sound very like passive and dismissive about it, but I I uh Yeah. That was one of those things too of like I was gonna go. Uh and then I got invited the next couple of years and I didn't go. I went also uh when they were having a heat wave and it was indoors. And uh for folks that don't know me, I don't like to be outside. I need air conditioning. Uh so I didn't go. Uh because um my what I found out was the thing at the White House was like a a celebration awards kind of It was not a meeting.

Robin Mack: 1:20:04

So I was like one and done.

Speaker 6: 1:20:07

Okay, I did this. Great. Um, you know, there's not a need to go back to these. Um, so let's focus on the HHS stuff. I'm so sorry that sounds I'm sure I sound like an awful person.

Robin Mack: 1:20:22

Well, well, why? Why why do you think you sound like an awful person from your standpoint right now? Like, what's what's going on behind your words?

Speaker 6: 1:20:31

How should you Oh no, I just seem very like passive and dismissive about it. And I don't just oh, it was just the white hair. I'm I'm trying not to make it sound like that. Yeah. But just so people understand that like I'm very goal-oriented of like I want to be able to like speak to these issues, and if I'm at like this, you know, uh whether it's an award ceremony or whatever this thing is, if I'm like not able to do that, what's the point of the the time and the money, the expense to go? Um when like I I I felt like doing the the things that HHS were a lot more beneficial and this you know, we'll just pat ourselves on the back. Oh, look how great we are.

Speaker 4: 1:21:23

Well, there was a report released at the beginning of this year, wasn't it? And they took it down.

Speaker 6: 1:21:26

It was up for uh four days.

unknown: 1:21:29

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:21:30

So that report bec out of the like the white um the White House round table that we did and the HHS stuff, yeah, they did this like huge report and we submitted a bunch of documents for that. And it was compiled and they released it. Um I could look it up on my phone, but I want to say it was like January 3rd. Just say a couple of days before the inauguration, it was up, and then the Trump administration took it down. Oh, yeah. And I had the foresight to download it, print it out. Yeah. Because I I just had a feeling everything was gonna and you can quote me.

Robin Mack: 1:22:20

So do you want to say something, Alexis?

Alexis Melvin: 1:22:23

No, I was going to say, you know, one of the big things about it is that with that type stuff, it is very dependent on the administration.

Speaker 4: 1:22:32

Oh, yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 1:22:32

And whether you get anywhere or not. And so, you know, the idea is just be ready for another good one to come around and hope it goes there.

Speaker 6: 1:22:40

It is amazing because I used to have so many emails from the prior administration of just updates on all this stuff, and then there would be Zoom calls, multiple Zoom calls. Every week I was going to like all this stuff, and then it was like all of a sudden just like nothing.

Alexis Melvin: 1:22:59

Right. I mean, it's the same thing I had. I mean, for for region four of HHS, I was like the LGBTQ, not representative, but they're you know, a delegated person. And I used to get so many emails, and you know, and you feel like you have to answer them if they have a question in it because that's what you said you'd do. And then all of a sudden, boom, nothing. It's like you never existed. All the pictures are gone, everything that you know was written and put out there was gone, which I downloaded by the way. I do have all of that.

Robin Mack: 1:23:30

But okay, so it's well, hold on. I just I just want to acknowledge as like it to me, Kuma, it goes back to your experience, your intention, and and Mo, I think this is really similar. Is like it's not to chase um a celebrity status, like going to the White House and hobnobbing with certain people wasn't isn't something that you would ever really get on a plane for. But if you had to go to the White House and you had an opportunity to change things for your community or create connections where you can further something like you were starting to do with HHS and hopefully continue to do, that's what's going to motivate you and inspire you. So I mean, just so you're clear on this, like I think it's amazing that two people who went from sharing pizza and community, community stories in in a house in Texas ended up creating a nonprofit policy and and actually doing things for people in such a way that you did get an invite to the White House. I'm not enamored by the White House personally, but I I think it takes a lot of courage to show up there in any administration, to go through security on an airplane, to go through security in a White House. Like I it and it's okay if you're not um, you know, super excited or elated about the actions it took because you also wanted it to provide a lot more, is what I'm hearing. And you're open to it providing a lot more in the future if that ever comes about. But I think I think it's also really great to acknowledge to people like, hey, you might see people going to the White House from your community and trying to represent you. And there's only so much you can get done. You know, and and I do I do know activists that try to make a difference in different um sectors, and they might think like, hey, if my pocket personally has this much money, maybe that's the place where I could go make the difference if I did get the invite, if I did have access. And it's just kind of good to know like how that works out, to be honest, because sometimes all you see is a bio and a picture, and you might think, well, that person's great or that person's not. I'm never gonna be that person, right? But I think it is huge to get invites and access to the White House in general. Um, but I I also love how like you two have never really oversold or ever over boasted and you and you don't necessarily like it's actually probably really uncomfortable right now for me to highlight and acknowledge you. Like you guys are not really out to do that. And, you know, Alexis, you're very similar. Like you've worked with HHS, you've worked with some administrations, and you're not people who have a chip on your shoulder about that. You know, you're still people that will go to someone's living room and talk to them about their child and their, you know, church experience and things like back to that DIY gorilla style. Like you can do all levels.

Alexis Melvin: 1:26:29

Well, the other thing about it is you never know what effect you're gonna have.

Speaker 3: 1:26:33

Yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 1:26:34

I mean, you you might have had effects way deeper than you thought. And you know, sometimes you're doing stuff and all of a sudden you hear something that someone's talking about, and you're like, oh. I know where they got that.

Speaker 6: 1:26:45

Also, the area of the White House that I was in is now gone. I was about to say, um Yeah, there were a couple, but did Trump know that?

Alexis Melvin: 1:26:56

Probably.

Speaker 6: 1:26:57

My fault, I'm sorry. Uh no, I you know, like that was a history piece in his life.

Alexis Melvin: 1:27:06

So, you know, if I if I listen to it, you'll have done lots and lots of stuff to make sure people know about it. I mean, it's almost like you've done everything except maybe do like an art car or something.

Robin Mack: 1:27:17

Uh was there like a party chapter for I mean, were you like in pride? Did you take time to get be in pride, or do you like live your lives? Or I mean, how how did it all blend for you?

Speaker 4: 1:27:31

It started getting uh it started getting too hot at Pride, so I think we kind of hopped out of Pride.

Speaker 6: 1:27:38

So there's multiple layers to this. We did make an art car, it took a long time because this might cross over into the like cheese may uh portion. Bring it. We got funding, it was which was supposed to be three-year funding uh to for our organization, which we were gonna use to make this art car. And with the first bit of funding, we purchased uh like a used car from a friend of mine. So it's already cheap.

Robin Mack: 1:28:12

Well, just like our car should be kind of right, right.

Speaker 6: 1:28:15

Uh and then the group rescinded funding for the next two years, not just from us, from everybody, but from several organizations all making the same claims. There was something like real shady happening there.

Robin Mack: 1:28:32

It's getting funding's not all it's cracked up to be.

Speaker 6: 1:28:35

Anyway, we were like, whatever. Uh, so we had this car that just sat for years, a couple of years, until we got funding to pick the project back up, which happened during COVID. So we then were tasked with trying to get folks to come together when you're not supposed to come together.

Robin Mack: 1:28:58

And you're probably probably half of you are autoimmune.

Speaker 6: 1:29:00

Yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:29:01

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:29:01

Um, in the heat to paint this car, which at the time was we did it in our treasurer's garage in her driveway.

Robin Mack: 1:29:09

Um again, really glad you have that treasure.

Speaker 6: 1:29:12

Yeah. Um and who also ended up driving the car. It's very important to have more than that. Trying to drive the car during Pride, which was a whole kerfuffle because the people who planned Pride told us to take our float or our art car down the off ramp uh on Allen Parkway to line up for the parade at 8 a.m. So the opposite side of the direction. But they did, yes. So as traffic is exiting, you're supposed to go down the exit ramp.

Robin Mack: 1:29:46

Oh Pride Houston has been a mess for a few years.

Speaker 6: 1:29:49

Um not telling us that they actually didn't secure lane closures until 10 a.m. They put a lot of people in danger. So as Jennifer Marie went down, she almost got in a head in collision. Oh, I and like was like so frazzled, uh she couldn't and we finally just told her, come back. Yeah, just forget it. The car made an appearance, but did not uh and yeah, endure the show. Did not yeah, make it through that whole thing. We had we had a few other like appearances with the car. Um, but unfortunately, as we mentioned before, Houston has a habit of flooding, and our poor car uh succumbed to weather, so we sold her for scraps.

Robin Mack: 1:30:42

So the snail mobile is in it for the photo op, and you couldn't get enough opportunity because the poor snail mobile was also put through Houston uh weather disasters and Houston nonprofit disasters. I mean, so why was it a snail goes through hardships?

Speaker 6: 1:31:01

Um, so snails are our mascot. All snails are intersex. Yeah. Well, they're yeah, hermaphroditic. Hermaphroditic, there you go. Yeah. Also, uh, I I had read that the slime that a snail produces allows it to go over um dangerous terrain uh to the point where they can even like crawl across a razor blade without getting cut.

Speaker 3: 1:31:32

Wow.

Speaker 6: 1:31:32

And I thought that was that's dope. Like pretty appropriate for an intersex organization. Speaking of COVID, uh do you remember another first that we did during COVID? Uh I remember some.

Speaker 4: 1:31:54

Oh, yeah, the COVID relief fund, yeah. Why did we why did we do that? Well, because intersex people needed help. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:32:03

Um well, see so at this point you've gone from support groups, you surpass hotlines, and it sounds like with the vet, and then during Harvey, you've you've done some direct gives for people in need, and then did you continued that during COVID? Is that what you're pointing to, Kuma?

Speaker 6: 1:32:22

Yes. So what we found was that there were like mutual aid funds and relief funds. Some were trans-specific, some were like LGBT specific. There was no intersex specific fund. And we found that there were intersex people in our community who, if they didn't identify as LGBT, they had a hard time accessing support. Interstate they would be turned away from trans funds. Uh if they didn't identify as trans, but they were intersex. Yeah, yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:32:56

Depending on grants and funds, you one label could help you, one label could hurt you. Yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:33:01

So we established like a fund. It wasn't a lot. Yeah. But uh and it was a lot of work though. Uh, because it was like we had to set up a way to take in applications, we had then to like review them, we had to like check in with people to me, do these like little interviews. And a lot of times it was just like someone needed, you know, a little extra money to help pay their rent or to keep the lights on, to buy groceries for their kids. Um we had a couple folks that received funding that then later like gave us the money back through a donation. Wow. Like to our pay health. Um, so a lot of times it was just like that. So it was never like a lot, it was always just like a couple hundred bucks. Um, but it it kept people housed, you know, it kept people fed. So it was like all of all of the, you know, the kind of the very, very basic needs that people had. Uh that it's just like a lot of times kind of what we said before was like identifying the need in the community. And it was the only one. It was the only intersex fund. I don't know. Yeah, heavily underfunded organization. Yeah. You know.

Robin Mack: 1:34:20

Um, and I also know that that fund drew bridges for people if you did qualify to other funds. So it was very helpful. I did the I did the calls for the Transgender Foundation of America. And since we don't discriminate and we didn't have those barriers, we were able to also support them. And I think it takes a lot of courage and need to ask for support. And then uh it can be so healing to be met with a basically like a warm community conversation that doesn't take a lot of labor spoons, a lot, it doesn't have a lot of barriers, and then it could just give you the money you need for your groceries, or give you give you the money you need for to like make your phone be able to stay on so you can get employment or your internet to stay on so you can keep your like um safe job in your house, you know, if you're autoimmune. And I I personally did speak to some of the people that got awarded to for both. Uh, and and these are not large monies, these are just keeping people uh towards their next paycheck or making that stipend stretch depending on what was going on during COVID. And I think that we've covered a lot of different times and stories. And I wonder when we speak about history and activism and uh flights in medical centers and whatnot, like do you guys want to highlight the Chicago or the the protests that you went to for um kids who couldn't speak to themselves, finally having the kids who couldn't speak that grew up to help them? Like this this amount of years had passed. I don't want to fumble it, but the amount of years had passed where intersex people could actually go talk for the next kids. And they held a showing of people in front of a medical space to support the conversation of the next kids that are intersex to not necessarily have unneeded or unwanted consenting surgeries.

Speaker 4: 1:36:25

Yeah, I think that was July 2017 in Chicago. I it was uh I think it was the Intersex Justice Project. Um and uh I think uh what was it, the Intersex Welcome Matt?

Speaker 6: 1:36:37

It was like uh Yeah, so uh Pigeon Cypher from Intersex Justice Project had reached out to us. That year the Intersex Conference was going to be held in Chicago. Yep, and they had been doing some work uh doing protests at like Lori Children's Hospital, who was still actively doing surgeries, and so had asked us if we wanted to collaborate. I remember I can't I went in to Chicago, I think a few days early um and helped them make signs, and then did this huge like art tapestry that I titled Intersex Welcome Matt. So horrible. It was just covered in like infant-sized bloody diapers, which you know is very visceral, but you know, accurate.

Robin Mack: 1:37:42

Draw people's attention to the topic it needed.

Speaker 6: 1:37:44

Right. So because the conference was in Chicago, there was gonna be a unusually large number of intersex people there.

Speaker 3: 1:37:53

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:37:53

So uh when did you that the You got into town, I think, at the start of the conference, right? Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:38:03

I helped make the fence, but you made the you made the you made the thing. Um and then the protest was after the conference or during. I think it was like the day I want to say it was like the day before because like I saw Betsy Driver there. I saw her that I was like, hey, that's the mayor of I forgot which the mayor of Fellington.

Speaker 6: 1:38:21

Fellington in New Jersey.

Speaker 4: 1:38:22

The first intersex politician in in the States. Open intersex, that is, yeah. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:38:27

Um I like really wish this was a video interview right now because both of you are just looking up, like trying to rack your brains on like you've done so much.

Speaker 6: 1:38:37

At the same time, they were also doing this, it was back when they also did the CMEs. So they had the the conference used to like partner with medical schools and would do these like continuing education credits, but like intersex people were not invited to participate in that or lead that. So it was basically doctors just talking about what they considered best practices, which are worse practices for our community. And it was like this, they had their own like secret conference going. So was it? Oh, they wouldn't, they wouldn't, they wouldn't let us go, they wouldn't let us go in there. That's right. We try to there was someone's friend was there, I think it was Paige's friend or Cypher's friend, and we're like, you're very like normal looking. So I convinced her to pretend to be a nurse and to go in, and like we kind of practiced and was like, she was like, What do I say when I get there? And I said, you know, say this, you're here for this thing. And it would probably be good if you kind of, you know, uh hesitated about explaining what it was, and maybe you won't even have to say anything.

Robin Mack: 1:39:48

Don't sound too confident. I love how you're like setting the scene for her and giving her the screens. Yeah, and as an artist, you're like, and we'll we'll put you in scrubs or like whatever. I don't know, here's the balance. Uh-huh.

Speaker 5: 1:39:58

And uh same thing. They asked her, What are you here for? And she's like, Um, well, it's it's uh a continuing education about when these children and they were like, oh, that one.

Speaker 6: 1:40:10

And they gave her like a name tag that's like. She went in and then like reported back um everything and then donated the little like the visitor pass that she got. She we have it in the archive.

Mo: 1:40:28

Wow.

Speaker 6: 1:40:28

And so there's some things that we have in the archive that like have a story.

Mo: 1:40:31

You're like, That's kind of cool.

Speaker 6: 1:40:33

What is this? Yeah. And and that's what that story is. But the intersex welcome map. Yeah. Uh we got we got support from the loke, right? Oh, that one, I think, or or we talked to them. Yeah, but it took all four of us to hold it up to present it.

Speaker 4: 1:40:50

Actually, now think about it. I think it was just a grounding. They just gave us a grounding to like, we're doing this deep level thing, here's the grounding. It was wild. I was like, Aloke is on the phone. Like, this is like nice. That's what it was wild, yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:41:00

But Lok is also from Texas, and I mean, do you do you connect with them these days? Or was that the one time of when a loke comes on your in your streets?

Speaker 4: 1:41:09

That was the only only contact I've had with.

Robin Mack: 1:41:11

Alok was like, give me Moe's number?

Speaker 4: 1:41:12

Like, how did how page or cipher? Yeah. Organized a Zoom call. Gotcha.

Robin Mack: 1:41:19

Yeah. And it's wonderful how you know, like, there could be a lot of distance where we're really not that separated as a community sometimes. So so Lok is on the phone for solidarity or just to check in with the conference, or what was happening?

Speaker 4: 1:41:32

I think it was just like grounding in front of us, what it felt like.

Robin Mack: 1:41:34

Okay. Wow.

Speaker 6: 1:41:36

And then we laid the intersex welcome mat at the front door so that people would have to walk over it to get into the business.

Speaker 4: 1:41:45

And I think some lady had picked it up, like the PR lady, and she's like, uh, oh no, no, no. She was saying like you left you left trash or something, right? Like, that's not trash.

Speaker 6: 1:41:54

It's a no, it's uh it's a donation. It's an art piece, and here's the value for your records. Wow. She was real mad at me. She talked to like 20 other people, and now I directed them back to them. And then everyone would then direct them back to me, and I could just tell them that it's a donation and it had a value. She folded it up and brought it in, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:42:17

So cool.

Speaker 6: 1:42:18

And I was I was telling people, I think what she's trying to do is to make it seem like we've either uh vandalized the space or have left trash to try and get us like arrested. Yeah. So if she asks you anything about it, direct her to me. Yeah. Because I can bullshit my way out of this.

Alexis Melvin: 1:42:36

There you go. Well, and the other thing about that is saying it's a donation, it has value, and especially even giving them a value, uh they now have to report it.

Speaker 6: 1:42:44

I know. Which is, I think, why she looked even more.

Alexis Melvin: 1:42:49

Probably they're stuck with it. It has to go.

Mo: 1:42:52

You guys are like, come for me for documentation. We'll we'll do this.

Robin Mack: 1:42:56

Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, do you want to say anything about the support that you've given parents along the way or uh next gen along the way, or even elders along the way?

Speaker 4: 1:43:13

I don't know. I feel like it's gotten more quieter in the intersex world, but I've I've always been more busier, so I don't um I would say in the beginning when I first started in advocacy, like especially like um a lot of parents would reach out, you know what I mean, and just like you know, be crying, be on the phone and stuff like that. Um but it's it's kind of it's kind of mellowed out. So I don't know. I I feel like they're finding they're fine supports, you know, which just makes me feel better because like they already have people that can help them.

Mo: 1:43:38

So that's beautiful. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:43:40

Yeah. Kuma, in your interactions to have a space for a community to find someone that is similar or knowledgeable about their life experience. Are there any stories that stand out for you that made it worth the effort? Or, you know, like that you actually got to do before a lot of the policy and politic uh chapter picked up, or maybe you did it alongside the policy and politic chapter?

Speaker 4: 1:44:10

I'm gonna cut you off real quick. Um so uh no, actually it's a live mic, you got it.

Speaker 6: 1:44:17

No, it's great because Mo never talks.

Speaker 4: 1:44:18

No, it's like one of the parents, like their their their son is is intersection, also at Maximo, too. So like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, I'm I'm the person that I need to grow in up, so I appreciate that. So no.

Speaker 6: 1:44:30

Wow. We also through connecting with like a parent and child, uh, when she got remarried, we were invited to their wedding. That's right. And then when he passed, we were also invited to his funeral. Yeah. So there's I think uh sometimes you make even like deeper connections with parents, um, even outside of just like intersex stuff. Oh yeah. Um I know for me there have been moments where like parents will reach out and we have lots of discussions, and through that they decide not to do a surgery. And like that's like that is why we did this.

Robin Mack: 1:45:15

Wow, check that out.

Speaker 6: 1:45:16

Everything that we're doing, like 100% on the spot. That one is that's why. Yeah. Um, we now have a community center. We have our own. I got a building. It's uh again, as like Robin said, it's not like a huge complex, it's just like a little townhouse. Uh right.

Robin Mack: 1:45:39

You just yeah, describe it so people don't you know I like center could be anything from the back room of a home to a a large facility. So it's just good to give people a picture of when when you're talking now about the Houston Intersex Society, you have a space that people can go. What does that look like?

Speaker 6: 1:45:58

So it's about 1,100 square feet. Uh it is a townhouse, it's right on the Fondron bus line, which is like you are 20 steps away from the front door when you get off of the bus. Um, it is two stories. Uh downstairs, there is kind of an open space that has there's a you know couch and we have uh folding tables and folding chairs. There's a mini stage there. There's a mini stage there's a for presentations, we have a projector to do every night.

Robin Mack: 1:46:30

Artists are like, um, so what size stage could we figure and still and still have a living room in there? There has to be a couch for the audience, clearly.

Alexis Melvin: 1:46:40

Some audience to sit there.

Robin Mack: 1:46:41

But like, what are we talking about? Square footage for the stage.

Speaker 6: 1:46:44

Oh maybe fit 12 people on it, I guess. Like a four foot by four foot stage. Right. Um bookcases and um that have archive items. Uh then we have there's one like a display case with historical stuff. Then we have a bookcase that has um some books and media, magazines, other archive stuff. Um there's like a small kitchen. Uh there's a microwave there is like a a stove top there, but it doesn't really work. It's on the list of things to fix, I think.

Robin Mack: 1:47:26

And what would you say the programming looks like these days? I mean, it it sounds like it's it's a it's a nice uh opportunity to have to still have support groups or some like a a good size people.

Speaker 6: 1:47:39

Um so we we've done various different events. Um we kind of do an annual uh Dia de Muertos uh event where we make like an ofrenda. We have done Halloween parties and movie nights, we've done a few workshops, uh, some know your rights workshops. We recently did a zine making workshop for uh Intersight's Day of Remembrance. We had some uh programming, uh like a candle lighting and kind of a little open mic sort of say your piece sort of thing. And then we did the the zine making workshop afterwards. Um and then the zines that we made there, we we actually uh presented and and sold at uh Zine Fest Houston.

Robin Mack: 1:48:29

Which is pretty big. I mean, there's Pride, there's R Car, there's Zines, and and I think you got a warm uh interaction. I don't know, warm connections at the Zine Fest.

Speaker 6: 1:48:40

And then upstairs, uh there's two rooms. There's a so there's a full bathroom upstairs, and we uh took out the tub and put in like a low threshold shower, so that's available for people. Um it made it a little bit more accessible. Um and we've got two bunk beds there, so we do have, we are not a shelter. Uh, we're not available for for that. We don't have the resources for that, but we are available for like emergencies or for people who are guests from out of town, in for programming, or um we kind of mentioned like we have a large medical center, we do have people that have various health needs. So when folks come to Houston uh to go to the doctor, like it's it's one way to alleviate financial strain for them to be able to stay there instead of staying in a hotel. Um and then also uh during like freezes and stuff like that, we've had community members who have an apartment that only has like a window unit. So if you don't have a heater, like hey, we have you know central air and heat in the building, like you can come here if the power's out.

Robin Mack: 1:49:56

You don't have to be alone, you can have some some other resources that maybe you can't you don't need all full year. You've you've made things uh last and stretch, but you're there in a pinch.

Speaker 6: 1:50:06

And then it's also just kind of a drop-in center. So typically it's uh open Tuesdays and Thursdays from one to five, but always double check because sometimes I'm here doing a radio um thing or you know, something else. But yeah, sometimes people just drop by to say hi. Uh you know, a couple days ago I had a phone call and someone's like, hey, I'm in the area. Can I stop by? And yeah, sure.

Robin Mack: 1:50:31

And just so it's okay if you don't have an appointment, but you know, it is good to maybe reach out through phone or the website, or how do people um find messenger uh or uh email is always good through the orgs pages and whatnot. And they would be getting you two or just Kuma or who would they be interacting with if they message people?

Speaker 6: 1:50:57

Probably Kuma for the most part, yeah. I mean, unless I direct them to Mo.

Robin Mack: 1:51:01

Sometimes I'm like Mo answer this and it's good to know, you know, because I'm sure people um you know just want a heads up on who they're communicating with. It's it's obviously not necessarily a volunteer or a staff member or anything like that, like other center spaces like they might think of. So it would be Kuma. They got to know Kuma through this podcast. Like that's really wonderful. And at this point, where do you see the future of the Houston Intersex Society going or or the future for intersex people in general?

Speaker 4: 1:51:32

Those are two different questions.

Robin Mack: 1:51:34

That's fine.

Speaker 4: 1:51:36

Answer them both. Um really volunteers. I really hoped we get more volunteers uh to come out, more people active, activated. Uh because like I want to replace myself.

Speaker 3: 1:51:51

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:51:51

Uh but also, you know, maybe a bigger center too, maybe one day. Um in regards to intersex people, uh there's one thing I told intersex people I I said at the conference was that like that like the US House might introduce a bill to protect intersex kids and it might, you know, pass, and if it passes the center, you know, and it will pass. But a bill passage alone won't change policy. We gotta change the hearts and minds of people. And what I was telling, you know, intersex people there was uh at the conference, I think um, was basically to kind of like just speak up, speak out and ask for your demands. And if you can't do it by yourself, try to get help, you know what I mean? So because it it gets old. It gets old, you know what I mean? Having to be the only uh having the only being the only ones that are openly speaking about these things, because you know what I mean, because it's it it just gets open, yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:52:38

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:52:40

Do you have uh an answer, Kuma, or um yeah, I think of the center has been around for a couple this is the third year. Um, I when I took this project on, I was like, we will be around for like you know three to five years. I was leaning more on three, and then we will need to move to a bigger space. And we're kind of see that it gets pretty crowded in there real quick. Already, yeah. Uh the zine making workshop was shoulder to shoulder, like it was kind of like, oh yeah, it's packed in here. Um, and then parking is also an issue. Uh, so I would love to see uh either another donated space or funding uh to get a space that's two to three times bigger, that has like a dedicated parking lot or dedicated parking spaces. I want a space that is less residential uh and more commercial, but still has the capability for like emergency overnights, you know, for people to stay and just data with their medical uh needs and whatnot. Um I ultimately would like to put ourselves out of business, uh, in the sense of like if these issues, right? Like if the surgical issue went away, if uh the world was accepting, if you know, instead of changing people's bodies, we could change people's minds, uh, then we wouldn't have to have an organization. People wouldn't feel isolated, and like that's the whole point, right? We said, you know, it was out of the isolation that we felt when we were younger that we started this. And if we can solve that problem, then we're not needed anymore.

unknown: 1:55:02

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 1:55:04

So that'll be the next life. Way to crush my dreams, Alexis. You're welcome.

Robin Mack: 1:55:12

What do you think, Alexis, from the standpoint of being the president of Transgender Foundation of America and seeing this org grow over the years? Like, are there any um points that stand out for you as far as accomplishments go or as far as like hurdles that maybe um might come up in the future?

Alexis Melvin: 1:55:33

Or there's tons of accomplishments and growing, you know, is good and bad, as you well know. But I think one of the big things is that all of us right now, I think, need to get ready for a possible additional shift in politics. I mean, we're coming into the midterms. Um, I think there's a possibility that the midterms could reverse a lot of things. And, you know, it's not going to be the president, but that comes up a few years later. And those things could make a huge difference and a difference in availability of funds if people are ready to do that and have something to do. So I think getting ready for that is something that we need to think about. And and it it's I guess I see it as very optimistic because I don't see it being able to get terribly much worse. It can get worse. It can't be.

Speaker 6: 1:56:29

Let me just say that when I said nothing worse can be burned down the very end.

Robin Mack: 1:56:36

Yeah, we're not going to be able to do that.

Alexis Melvin: 1:56:36

I don't want to tempt the universe, but don't tempt the universe. But you know, I mean it there's a possibility that we're going to be able to do that.

Robin Mack: 1:56:42

I mean it's important to remember it can get better. It can get better.

Mo: 1:56:49

But I'm sorry, did I interrupt?

Alexis Melvin: 1:56:51

No, not really. I mean, basically, I think that's the biggest thing, and y'all are doing all of that. And you know, part of it is even if you get a lot of the stuff you want, there's still going to be a lot of people who feel isolated because you can't universally make sure everyone knows about it. So I I would see it switching more to education. I mean, I mean it it it's just sort of like at one point in time with TFA, I made the comment that I'm not sure we really need to spend a whole lot of time on HIV education because everybody knows how you get it and how to prevent it, and we're starting to get medication, and then I got a call from somebody who a longtime person in our community who asked the question of, okay, this is serious, I'm not joking around. How do you get HIV?

Mo: 1:57:40

Right.

Alexis Melvin: 1:57:41

And I and I mean, I went right back and I said, Okay, I was wrong. Right. And so, you know, it it you might think that it's there, but I mean, this this was someone been around for a long time. And no, that's very true.

Speaker 6: 1:57:55

And uh I had um someone from Australia actually make a comment about why are you still doing Intersex 101? Well, because every time I do Intersex 101, people learn.

Speaker 3: 1:58:09

Right.

Speaker 6: 1:58:10

Right, because it's still needed. Yeah, we've been doing it for years, and yes, like but it's true. Yeah.

Robin Mack: 1:58:18

Well, it I think the nature of education in itself is that it it's gonna need to be repeated, it's gonna need to be refined, it's gonna need to be um, you know, clarified as you go, because we could all learn our one, two, threes, our A, B, Cs, but how we implement that is gonna look very different on paper, it's gonna sound very different through our mouths, it's gonna be very different through our lived experiences, and people forget the nature of that. I would love for people to um be in a place where they just know like all these things. And a lot of it is in our culture now, and some things don't need to be highlighted. But like Mo said, even if we have policy shifts, implementing that per hospital, you know, implementing that per new family that coming in, um, you know, how do we make that uh a little bit more seamless and a little bit more loving, caring, and supportive is a large undertaking. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Alexis Melvin: 1:59:14

And you know, you're gonna have situations, for instance, uh somebody who runs a company or someone who's a manager, and somebody walks into their office and says, okay, just so you know, I'm intersex. They don't know what to make about that. I mean, usually they're gonna say something. I'll talk to HR right now. What did you say?

Speaker 4: 1:59:32

I'd talk to HR, you know, intersex. Yeah, yeah. In the corporate world, yeah.

Alexis Melvin: 1:59:37

And you know, and and so this is where the education just needs to be there. And I could see I could see some very short, like book type stuff. I mean, not not a big book. Oh, a pamphlet or something.

Robin Mack: 1:59:51

And but like a zine, I don't know. But just getting it.

Alexis Melvin: 1:59:55

Okay, but managers don't go read zines.

Robin Mack: 1:59:57

Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

Alexis Melvin: 1:59:58

And and I mean, you know it It's like I did a presentation to a group of four hundred hiring managers at a company, and there was this person from California who basically made everybody in you know the the trans intersex and anything like that community sound like we were a total liability because we were going to kill ourselves. And I mean it was a California social worker. And so I basically sort of had to take an extra 15 minutes since I'd gone first and say, okay, this is going to be rather blunt and direct, and some people are going to take offense. I don't care because this is ridiculous.

Speaker 3: 2:00:41

Right.

Alexis Melvin: 2:00:41

I mean, if I were sitting here, there's 400 of you out there, supposedly, and you're supposedly hiring people. If I were sitting there, I would say, no way I'm hiring any of these people.

Mo: 2:00:51

Right.

Alexis Melvin: 2:00:51

Well, let me explain to you why that's not a good idea to not, and why it's a good idea to. And, you know, I'm I understand that this person went and did this, and here's where they got the information. I'll tell you what's wrong with the information. You know, there's stuff like that that you just have to take care of every now and then.

Robin Mack: 2:01:08

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. And and you said it in this uh podcast that I think we're all really present at right now, Alexis is you never know where you're gonna make new ripples, new openings, a difference, that sort of thing. And so, you know, uh in the world, like this is a global issue from our Surgeon General that was with Biden's administration. They started taking on the pandemic of loneliness and isolation before COVID. And some countries actually have a um loneliness ambassador. And so when you're looking at people being isolated and disconnected in general, um the intersex loneliness and isolation is gonna overlap a bit with humanities, loneliness and isolation, right? A little bit, especially after a pandemic. And so I feel like it's a it's a really large undertaking to keep going. And you obviously have a large commitment in this, and you may phase out, you may replace yourself and and things like this.

Alexis Melvin: 2:02:10

But I just maybe find new ways to make the point.

Robin Mack: 2:02:15

Yeah, I was gonna say, like I mean, maybe maybe you have, because that's where I was going with it, is like, have you seen as a community that's underneath plenty of trauma trauma and um very little support and that isolation? Just sort of the key points that you've touched on a lot in this interview. Like you've had support through art, through community connections, through private conversations in homes, through conferences. Like, have you noticed in the efforts and the programming that you've done that it does chip away at that isolation and loneliness? Like, and and if so, like how so? Because I can just imagine someone listening to this, maybe they're intersex, maybe they're not, and they're like, I really keep hearing this word community and connection and art, and like I don't really know, like I'm just an engineer, or I am, you know, just somebody growing up. Like, I don't really know if I should put my time into this or does it make a difference? And how do I get there? And then I could understand that, like with the additional intersex label of like, wow, like, do I want to go through the intimacy of like having these detailed conversations? Is it worth it to open myself up one more time? Like, can you guys speak to sort sort of like any sort of pros and cons that your efforts have made in that area? Because like literally, like globally, like people are up against that part.

Speaker 6: 2:03:48

I have no idea. I have no idea.

Robin Mack: 2:03:51

That's fair. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6: 2:03:53

I think in a way, social media has been both uh the catalyst and kind of uh not the solution, but like a little bit of it, in the sense of like it can be something that isolates people so that they don't interact with people, but it can also be the thing that helps people find people and maintain like communication. And but it's I think one of the important things of having like the center and doing in-person programming is there is such a big difference between doing like an online support group and like talking to people through Zoom and being at a table with other people. And so, what I've found is that a lot of times, like for the zine making workshop, we started it with this like kind of solemn, you know, moment of remembrance for intersex day of remembrance, and like people talked about like their experiences being intersex, or we had some allies that showed up there also, and uh that's that very like emotional part of it. But then once we kind of shifted to the zine making workshop, even though what you know some people were making zines about their intersex experience, there's a moment where like people aren't the thing anymore. Where they're it's not that they're not intersex anymore, it's that what they're there for is not just that, right? And we I think a lot of times, especially as as you know, educators, Mo and I relive our trauma so often. And after we, you know, this is one of the rare interviews where we didn't, you know, go through our life story and our trauma, but afterwards we always call each other and check in. That's great. But there's sometimes these moments where you you recognize that they're not there for that anymore. And you see people light up and just have fun and start laughing and joking about different stuff.

Alexis Melvin: 2:05:59

It gets to be fun, and that's that's the key.

Speaker 6: 2:06:02

That's the thing. That's wonderful.

Robin Mack: 2:06:03

I like that moment, it gives me goosebumps because I think you kuma, because and I honestly think that this answer comes at a perfect time after the pandemic because like everybody from kids to your retired CEO understands the difference of an in-person meeting versus a Zoom meeting. Oh, yeah. And like how you do get some stuff done on the computer, but you also may not get those after conversations, those around conversations when you're like in person. And is it worth it to show up? Is it not? And then like that magic that can happen where it's not all um rewounding or uh very emotional. In fact, it could be refueling and maybe restful, and maybe like new creations come about in that um space being held. And it's it's probably there's probably not like a perfect recipe for it, but it might take dabbling with what works best for your community and how to keep that space going.

Speaker 6: 2:07:04

And so often I hear people say, you know, and they don't mean it in a rude way, but it was like I wasn't planning on coming, kind of thing. Of like they people really struggle to convince themselves to go places and to put it. They do struggle. Uh and so it's encouraging people to actually get out there and go. Because a lot of times afterwards, like they're glad that they went.

Robin Mack: 2:07:29

Yes. Yes. And we have that in common as humans. Like people struggle to get back to the gym. People struggle to get off of the couch to go to work. People struggle to like there's there is a bit of agoraphobia that happened as a side effect of being um so in cluster during the the pandemic. And then there's also like another level of burnout for some people because they never got to quarantine. And so I think the relatedness of showing up and how to show up is is really relevant for all people right now. And they're grappling with that. And I think that it really speaks to a new opportunity as society, um, again, globally, to look at what would be the right blend of that for the people with you. Because for some people, they're really extrovert and it might be an activity or a physical thing, or for some people it might be a quiet thing or an art thing, or you know, it just might be meeting with people. And what I think in that moment is like sometimes that's where equality really is if you have access to that stuff, you know, that that availability to even get there, which is hard for some people for sure, for lots of reasons.

Alexis Melvin: 2:08:41

I'm gonna interrupt again. We probably need to tie this up and