Mérida Travel Guide: Cenotes, Flamingos & Hidden Gems in the Yucatán

Join Paula as she chats with Jen and Brett from Expatsi about their expat journey from Birmingham, Alabama, to Mérida, Yucatán, Mexico. Discover practical tips for moving abroad, exploring local culture and cuisine, uncovering hidden gems, and how community support made their transition inspiring. Want more Mexico content, then you should listen to episode 16, where I chat with Carm about her experience in Mexico.

Key Topics

• Expat journey from US to Mexico
• Choosing Merida as a destination
• Exploring local culture and cuisine in Yucatan
• Hidden gems and community support in Mexico

Helpful Links

• Episode 16 - Mexico
• Move abroad Con 
• 5 Essential things you should know when renewing your vows in Cancun
• Things to do in Cancun

If you want to know more about Jen and Brett, check out Expatsi here.

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Transcript

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0:23 Paula Barnes: Today's episode, I'm so excited. For those who have been listening to my previous Truly Expat podcast, they will recognize this face and this voice, I should say. But we also have another special guest. So we have Jen and Brett come on to talk about, well, you know what? I'll let them introduce themselves. So let's start with hello. How are you? Let's hear about your expat journey.

0:50 Jen From Expatsi: Paula, thank you so much for having us. I'm Jen, this is Brett. We are from Birmingham, Alabama, and now we live in Merida, Yucatan, Mexico. And we got to move here by helping other Americans also move abroad. And so that's the business that we're in. It's called Expatzi.

1:10 Paula Barnes: Excellent. And I will actually put all the show notes in the show notes, all the links. So if anyone does want to get in touch with Jen and Brett, they can do so through the link. Let's find out where do you live and how exactly you got to that destination.

1:30 Jen From Expatsi: Do you want to share? We live in Merida, Yucatan, Mexico, which is in the southeast peninsula of the country. We moved here just about two years ago. We drove our Nissan and four animals and everything we owned over about 4,400 kilometers and eight days to arrive here. And we have loved our life here ever since.

1:54 Paula Barnes: What made you choose there of all, because I know that you, I've spoken about this before, but for those who haven't heard our previous episode, what made you decide Mexico in general?

2:07 Jen From Expatsi: Okay, so we had no idea where to go. We just knew that we wanted more. You know, we wanted something besides what was going on in the US, and we had no idea where to start. And it took us about eight years really to get moved. And a big part of that was trying to decide where. So we sat down and figured out where we could go.

2:31 Jen From Expatsi: You know, if we saved all our money and then maybe I could retire and then maybe Brett would work remote and this and that. And then where we wanted to go. So what did we want for time zones and proximity and weather and cost of living and human rights and all those things. And came up with a top 10 list and we were going to visit 10 countries over 10 years because, you know, we were talking about Americans don't travel enough. And so it was going to take us 10 years to visit 10 countries. And then we were going to

3:01 Paula Barnes: She is our favorite. And we were going to go to Costa Rica first. And then I came across some TikTokers, you know, this is 2021. And so I was absolutely obsessed with, I still am obsessed with TikTok, but it was even more so that.

3:16 Paula Barnes: You

3:17 Jen From Expatsi: And some guys had moved to Merida and I was like, look at this place. It looks amazing. Never heard of it in my life. I said, let's go here first. Let's try it out. And we came and visited and listen, it's not for the faint of heart. They call it the furnace of Mexico and Mexico is not, you know, a chilly place to begin with. And it's the hottest part, but we came and visited and we just love the culture and the community so much. And on the

3:47 Jen From Expatsi: Home I said

3:49 Jen From Expatsi: Let's get you a drink and you got a drink. Well, I want to tell you something. I don't want to wait 10 years. I want to figure out how to make this happen now. And my thought was we can't be alone, right? We can't be the only ones going through this who want to move abroad, don't know how, don't know where to go. What if we took all this research we did to get to this point and we started a business and then we use that to move sooner so that we didn't have to wait until

4:19 Jen From Expatsi: I could retire. And so that's what we did.

4:24 Paula Barnes: Wow, it's brave. Like it's really brave. Like I think a lot of people don't realize when you uplift your whole life and move, it's brave but it's also exciting and rewarding at the same time. You just got to decide it, make the move and then know, head out. So you did say it was hot. So what is the best time to travel there if it's really hot?

4:36 Jen From Expatsi: For sure.

4:43 Jen From Expatsi: Okay.

4:52 Jen From Expatsi: Travel to Merida, I would say right around the beginning of the year, January, February tend to be the coolest months, relatively speaking. And so that's when we first came down here was January 2022. For our scouting For our scouting trip. And then we came back during the hot months in August because we tell people generally...

5:01 Paula Barnes: Okay.

5:11 Paula Barnes: Okay.

5:13 Jen From Expatsi: See your new country at its best, see it also when it's worse. Just see if you can hang. Also, January is Merida Fest. Merida always has free arts and culture events all the time, but in January especially they do a ton of events, so it's a great time to come and see the city.

5:21 Paula Barnes: Actually, that's.

5:25 Paula Barnes: Okay.

5:36 Paula Barnes: Okay, so is it a very arty place?

5:40 Jen From Expatsi: It's not as artsy as say, we were just in Oaxaca for a week. It's not as artsy as Oaxaca or as Mexico City or maybe San Miguel de Allende because at the end of the day, it's kind of a workaday city, which is great for us because we're living a workaday life. But in the city center, there's a huge amount of arts and culture.

5:45 Paula Barnes: Okay.

6:07 Paula Barnes: And so what type of food is a different food in that region than it is in other places in Mexico? Okay, well, okay, let's get into it then. So what do I need to try if I come? Like what is the top food choices, I guess?

6:22 Jen From Expatsi: My personal favorite in Yucatican cuisine would be the cochinita pibil. Cochinita pibil is a slow roasted pork marinated in a sour orange, which is very common in this region. So it comes out, it's very juicy, it's very flavorful. That was my first favorite dish whenever I first came here to Merida and love it every chance I get.

6:27 Paula Barnes: Okay, please explain.

6:36 Paula Barnes: That's awesome.

6:48 Paula Barnes: That sounds good.

6:48 Jen From Expatsi: Yeah, and it makes sense like we're from Alabama of course and pulled pork slow-cooked pulled pork is like a normal cuisine for us, but I just I don't love the sour aspect of it But he loves it and as long as he loves it. He's way pickier than me So if you find some something you like But there are a lot of things that are different here like the way that they make tamales

6:48 Paula Barnes: Hehehehehe

7:09 Paula Barnes: You

7:15 Jen From Expatsi: They're like a different consistency and instead of them being wrapped in corn husks, they're wrapped in like leaves. Banana leaves. Are they banana? I think they're banana leaves. They're banana-esque leaves. But it is different.

7:24 Paula Barnes: Okay.

7:31 Paula Barnes: And so then what would you choose? So if that was not your favorite dish, what would you choose as a dish that you have to try?

7:40 Jen From Expatsi: Okay, so there's a dish and it especially comes up during certain holidays, but it's called like chiles, chiles, noales, and it's

7:52 Jen From Expatsi: I think they do it for Independence Day because it's red, white, and green like the Mexican flag. And so it's like a stuffed chili with like a white crema sauce. And then it's covered in pomegranate seeds. So it's like kind of a spiced meat mixture. So it's like kind of sweet, kind of spicy, kind of cheesy. Yeah.

7:57 Paula Barnes: Okay.

8:15 Paula Barnes: That sounds good. Actually, they both sound good. And so a drink besides tequila, what is a drink you have to try when you're there?

8:27 Jen From Expatsi: Okay, so we do love tequila and mezcal. I love a paloma. I will drink a paloma all day long. Now, I also love Topo Chico. That's what I'm drinking right now. So like a fizzy water. Yeah. Yeah. My alcohol drink is a mezcalita.

8:30 Paula Barnes: Yeah, me too.

8:40 Paula Barnes: Okay, what's that? Okay. With no alcohol. What is that?

8:50 Jen From Expatsi: It's kind of a take on margarita. It's mezcal. It's made from the agave plant, just like tequila is. And so it's kind of spicy. It's also made with a... It's also smoky from the mezcal and how they produce it. And it's kind of a little bit of a kick to it. But also in the blend is the hibiscus flower. So it's got smoothness to it that kind of levels off the smokiness and the spiciness. I'm a big fan of wherever we can go to a local Cantina.

9:04 Paula Barnes: Nice.

9:08 Paula Barnes: Okay.

9:20 Jen From Expatsi: You also like that Mundette? Yes, yes. I really much love an apple soda here. It's called a Sidrell Mundette. Yeah, it's like fizzy apple soda.

9:31 Paula Barnes: Okay. Okay, and you find that just in normal shops or is it made like in a can or, yeah.

9:37 Jen From Expatsi: No, like at the, like bottled. It's bottled. If you wanted like a local drink everywhere you can get like horchata or

9:41 Paula Barnes: Okay.

9:51 Jen From Expatsi: Aguafresca, aguas frescas or juices. And so they do jamaica, which we say Jamaica, but jamaica or tamarind or different. Cocoa, coconut water is also very common here. Yeah.

9:59 Paula Barnes: Okay.

10:08 Paula Barnes: Okay, yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. So if I was coming there and I only had a few days, what would an itinerary, not just like hotspots that everyone has to go to, but what would you do if you brought someone there for a few days? What would the itinerary look like?

10:10 Jen From Expatsi: Yeah, I just like my face in water.

10:30 Jen From Expatsi: I have brought someone here for a few days and this is what we would do. So the first thing and it depends on the season, but you have to go see the flamingos. There are different ecological spots where flamingos gather. There's one in particular in a town called Celestune and I mean it is...

10:33 Paula Barnes: Okay.

10:41 Paula Barnes: Okay.

10:53 Jen From Expatsi: Tens of thousands of flamingos on the water. And you can ride out in a little boat and see them all feeding and their babies. And then you go through the mangroves and take a dip in a sulfur pond and things like that. Then you would have to go to a cenote. So here where we live is about...

10:56 Paula Barnes: Wow.

11:19 Jen From Expatsi: 15 or 20 miles from where the meteor struck that killed the dinosaurs.

11:26 Paula Barnes: Okay. Wow.

11:27 Jen From Expatsi: Yeah.

11:28 Jen From Expatsi: And so there are some like cheesy kind of touristy things around dinosaurs, but also it created these underground pools all over the peninsula. So some of them are fully underground. Some of them are above ground and some of them are half and half, but they're called cenotes. And so they'll be, it's like going to swim at the bottom of a well. And then imagine that it's 110 degrees. What is that?

11:54 Paula Barnes: Mm.

11:58 Jen From Expatsi: Be eight degrees outside. Yes. And then you get into the most perfect, coolest placid pond and dip and it's a dollar or whatever. And every all kinds of people are there just sort of bobbing around. It's it's super pleasant. Then I would go to Hacienda and have them serve you something like Cochinita Pabil.

12:00 Paula Barnes: Hot.

12:28 Jen From Expatsi: Made so a pibil, the pibil is the clay oven in the ground where they cook them, it slow cooked the meat. So I would have a...

12:34 Paula Barnes: Okay. Yep.

12:39 Jen From Expatsi: I mean a customary meal and then I would go to Mayan ruins. So there are, you know, there's more pyramids in Mexico than any other country in the world. And where we live, there are a ton. And our favorite is called Uxmal and it is just a beautifully preserved Mayan city. And get a tour guide there. They have like a PhD in teaching.

12:48 Paula Barnes: Okay.

12:53 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

13:11 Jen From Expatsi: History or doing tours. And so they'll tell you all about how the Mayans lived and the way that they used the aqueducts and there's a university and there's a stadium. It's just absolutely fascinating. So that is what I would do bargain. And then speaking of Cenote, you know, Costco, right?

13:22 Paula Barnes: Okay.

13:29 Paula Barnes: Wow.

13:34 Jen From Expatsi: Okay, so we have a Costco and there's a cenote in the parking lot of the Costco because they were redoing, yes, they were redoing the parking lot and they found the cenote. So of course they had to preserve it. So it's a normal Costco with a normal parking lot, but then in the middle is this protected area with lights and there's a cenote.

13:56 Paula Barnes: That's so bizarre. Do you know, I remember we went in one when we actually renewed our vows in Mexico when we hit 25 years, that's how old I am. But one of the things I really wanted to do was go and swim in one and we did and it's so deep. Like so deep, I'm so surprised how deep it is and beautiful. Wow. No wonder I couldn't touch the ground.

14:14 Jen From Expatsi: Yes, yes. They scuba dived in them. Scuba dived in them. Yes, we were in one. No, absolutely not. And some scuba divers came and dived and we never saw them again. The whole time we were there. I don't know how far they went. Was like the abyss.

14:37 Paula Barnes: That's too funny. So for those who want to visit, do you need to have a car or is public transport okay or do you catch taxis? How do you get around?

14:49 Jen From Expatsi: So it depends. Like I said, we drove here. And that's a big benefit to people from the US because you can actually drive a US-plated car here as long as you are a tourist or temporary resident.

14:59 Paula Barnes: I am.

15:02 Paula Barnes: Okay.

15:02 Jen From Expatsi: So we just, you know, tooled on up in our car with our US plates. And so we have it and it's nice. Beyond that, there are Ubers and Didi is a local brand of Uber. They're really affordable. There's also a really good hybrid bus system called Va-Yven. And then there's the train now that can take you to Campeche or to Cancun. A lot of people fly in and out of Cancun because it's our big huge

15:22 Paula Barnes: Okay.

15:32 Jen From Expatsi: International airport that's not that far away or there are little things like collectivos or whatever else but that's what I'd recommend. I wouldn't recommend renting a car unless you get a good deal because that's where they can get you. It can be really expensive here to rent a car.

15:50 Paula Barnes: Okay, that's a good tip. And if I wanted to buy souvenirs and I didn't want a magnet, what would you suggest I purchase or where would I get a great souvenir?

15:53 Jen From Expatsi: Mm-hmm.

16:05 Jen From Expatsi: So there's a big market downtown. It's called Lucas de Galvez, I believe is the name. It's definitely Galvez Market and it's just sprawling. It goes over many, many, many blocks. And a lot of people, have to be careful because there are so many beautiful handcrafts in Mexico and there are also people who have knocked off those crafts in China and import them. So you wanna be careful.

16:31 Paula Barnes: Hi.

16:33 Jen From Expatsi: But you know, each region of Mexico has custom customary clothes and you can find the traditional Mayan patterns. Then for the in the for women, it's like shirts with these beautiful flowers embroidered on. And it's just fantastic. And then for guys, they have what are called Gaia Bara shirts. And they kind of look like if you think about Cuban shirts, which makes sense because Cuba is not that far from where

16:50 Paula Barnes: Okay.

17:03 Jen From Expatsi: We are. And the other thing is in Yucatan, fiber arts are just phenomenal. The wealth in this region came from Henneken fibers. You know, that they used to make rope and things like that. So you can find beautiful hammocks or macrame arts. So I would pick something like that.

17:03 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

17:21 Paula Barnes: Okay, yeah.

17:28 Paula Barnes: Okay, that's good. I think a lot of times people will steer towards the Chinese knockoff stuff in every country. That's a good little tip for people to know. Let's go back to your...

17:44 Paula Barnes: Time there, like when you first arrived there, what was your a heart moment that was like, okay, this is my place. This is where I want to live.

17:53 Jen From Expatsi: Okay, so we each have one. For me, it was the first night we got here on our scouting trip.

17:55 Paula Barnes: Okay.

18:04 Jen From Expatsi: For us, it was during the pandemic or essentially it was 2022. So in the US, we were kind of in a post pandemic world and we'd been vaccinated for a year or so. But here the COVID precautions were very much in full force. Now, I know that for people from like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, that is not appealing because the COVID lockdowns were so stringent.

18:33 Paula Barnes: It... Yeah.

18:34 Jen From Expatsi: And I am aware of that. But for us in the US, it was the absolute wild west. And not only that, it was another flash point for this super divided culture that's going on in the US right now. So we, for example, had decided to be pretty cautious and try not to get it. And it was a big sticking point with family that we wore masks or that we

18:40 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

19:04 Jen From Expatsi: Didn't come home for Christmas in 2020. And that was really stressful for us. And so when we came to Merida and there was 100 % mask compliance, it was just such a relief. Then, you know, when we went to dinner the very first night, it was first of all, we got to the restaurant and it turned out to be at someone's house, which is really common here, but we didn't know that yet. Because it, yeah, yeah. So on Google Maps, you know,

19:28 Paula Barnes: Is it?

19:32 Jen From Expatsi: Places will have branding, a name, 422 five-star reviews, and then you get there and it is fully in someone's yard.

19:41 Jen From Expatsi: And it's fantastic. But when you first rock up and you're like, what are we going to get? I mean, you're expecting there to be a mall or businesses or something. And it's like, oh no, it's just like that guy's house. And so everybody would put hand sanitizer on you and check your temperature, which had never happened in the US. And again, this is 2022. And the messaging was, and it was painted everywhere. I'll take care of you, you'll take care of me, and we'll take care of each other.

19:46 Paula Barnes: Yeah

20:00 Paula Barnes: Wow.

20:11 Jen From Expatsi: And coming from this place where Americans are just at such loggerheads and it's genuinely ugly, like it's not fun and games or cute, like it is deadly serious. And to just see that everyone was like, yeah, of course we're gonna take care of each other. I was just, you know, I couldn't believe it. And so anyway.

20:31 Paula Barnes: That's nice. Yeah.

20:35 Jen From Expatsi: So for me, it was also about people taking care of each other. When we were here on our Skyin trip, we had a trip to the mall. Jen had bit of an accident. She was dealing with a sunburn that day. She had this long frilly purse.

20:47 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

20:50 Jen From Expatsi: To make it short, she fell out right in the middle of the mall. It's so hard for you to explain what the sunburn and the frilly purse had to do with anything. Okay, so she had a serious sunburn from being out at the beach earlier that day. She's got this this frilly, this purse with these long frills. Fringe. Long fringe at the end, holding out at one side. Her mask was half broken, so she's just holding her mask on with rubber hands.

20:55 Paula Barnes: No.

21:01 Paula Barnes: You

21:16 Jen From Expatsi: And basically she's like, choose chunky platform shoes, falls flat out on her butt. Before I can even look over and make sure she's okay, we've got five people gathering around us to make sure she has not hurt herself. Three people to help her get off the ground and at least two women willing to testify against whoever tripped up this poor young woman. Because certainly they are liable for this injury.

21:22 Paula Barnes: You

21:31 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

21:44 Paula Barnes: It

21:46 Jen From Expatsi: To be so taken care of in such a quick amount of time by complete strangers who did not even share a common language with us that we can understand easily made so much to me because it really did indicate that we are part of a community here, a community that has largely been left behind in the US when we were there.

21:48 Paula Barnes: Mm-hmm.

21:57 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

22:00 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

22:05 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

22:10 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

22:10 Jen From Expatsi: And I felt so encouraged by that and I wanted to be a part of that so much we couldn't wait to move here.

22:17 Paula Barnes: That's so nice. Both of those stories are nice. Funny, but nice. I don't mean to laugh at you. But I just love, can see it. Yeah.

22:22 Jen From Expatsi: You

22:25 Jen From Expatsi: You have to. You have to. Like there is no, you have to laugh at everything that's going on. Lose your mind.

22:36 Paula Barnes: Both of those sound like a, I think that's the thing when you move to a place and you don't feel like part of the community, because I've done that before, it's hard to live there, like really hard to live there. But if you are embraced and they like foreigners, then yeah, it's a perfect place to live. So then it comes to the last little interesting bit. So in terms of secret locations that only locals know, do you recommend?

23:04 Paula Barnes: Is there anywhere that you can share any hidden gems?

23:08 Jen From Expatsi: Yeah, we have one. Our favorite place is a beach called Sisal. It's spelled S-I-S-A-L and I think it comes from the same name as the fibers. Used to make rope or hammocks. It is not the easiest beach to get to, but it is so worth it. And then at that beach, there is a beach club called Palmar.

23:10 Paula Barnes: Okay.

23:16 Paula Barnes: Okay.

23:22 Paula Barnes: Okay.

23:36 Jen From Expatsi: Palmar. Yeah. P-A-L-M-A-R.

23:39 Jen From Expatsi: And you have to spend $15 to go to the beach club and they make the best Palomas and wood-fired pizzas and so for the princely sum of $15 you can spend the whole day on the most unspooled beautiful beach in my opinion on the Gulf of Mexico and and and eat pizza and drink candy pizza Palomas and they let you bring your dog. Yes, Squiggy our

23:48 Paula Barnes: Bye!

23:58 Paula Barnes: That sounds good. Wow.

24:09 Paula Barnes: Okay.

24:09 Jen From Expatsi: People absolutely loves going to this beach club and the beach the town is just so quiet and so unspoiled it's a delight to go there spend the afternoon we've talked with other locals here that also enjoy going to this small beach town seesaw is the most peaceful place especially for us coming from where you know being in the southern u.s the gulf of mexico is very commercialized this was just like a local small town

24:33 Paula Barnes: Okay.

24:36 Jen From Expatsi: People selling produce from their front porches and everyone was just so pleasant. It won't be like that forever. No, there's no fault of ours because it's it's just really nice. So get out there while you have a chance.

24:40 Paula Barnes: Nice.

24:44 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

24:47 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

24:52 Paula Barnes: Do you have to have a car to get there?

24:55 Jen From Expatsi: You don't, but you would need someone's car to get there. So you would either take the bus or have someone drive you there. But there are ways to get there. But you definitely could not walk. It's about, it's a good hour, hour and 15 minutes west of town. So it's a bit of a drive, which is a little bit of a delight. It's a little bit of a...

25:12 Paula Barnes: Okay, okay.

25:17 Jen From Expatsi: A challenge, benefit of course, but there's also closer beaches such as Progresso, which is about a half hour bus ride north of us.

25:19 Paula Barnes: Yeah. Yeah.

25:26 Paula Barnes: Okay, but I mean if you're going to do a day trip that's a good day trip. It's only an hour away. Perfect location.

25:29 Jen From Expatsi: If you're going to do a day trip, yeah. And it's so chill. It's a very relaxed place. Wonderful if you're just trying to see what Mexico is really about. You take away the frills and the vendors and you take away the business from it. Just see what is Mexico? What are people like? Seasaw is an excellent place to go and find out what that is.

25:52 Paula Barnes: Sounds good. Do you have any tips or recommendations before we end for anyone?

26:02 Jen From Expatsi: So the thing that I would say, there are two things I would want to say about Mexico. The first is to not be scared of headlines about Mexico.

26:14 Jen From Expatsi: We had a group here recently, there were some cartel violence in Puerto Vallarta. It was super shocking because Puerto Vallarta is a bubble where things like that don't happen. It's not to say that things don't happen anywhere in the country or that there aren't problems.

26:32 Jen From Expatsi: But in Puerto Vallarta, it is just not common. And there was a cartel leader who was killed. And there were some retaliatory events. And mostly what that involved was burning vehicles.

26:47 Jen From Expatsi: We had a group there at the time and they absolutely stuck it out and they said that they were so glad that they had been there because if they had been in the US and seen the way it was portrayed in the media, they probably would have changed their mind about moving there. But because they were there, it was easy for them to see that it wasn't about them, that this was a planned operation that had a beginning and an end, that it was all property crimes, that they weren't in any danger. And they were glad that they

27:17 Jen From Expatsi: With their own eyes. The way things are portrayed outside of Mexico are so different from what it's like in Mexico. It isn't to say that there aren't places that are very, very dangerous, but the violence tends to be predictable and trackable and local. Where we live in Merida has one 40th as many murders per capita as the city we come from in the U.

S.

27:46 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

27:47 Jen From Expatsi: And we aren't scared in our hometown in the US, so why would we be scared here? So that's one thing I would say. And the other thing I would say is to remember that kind of like visiting the US and you go to New York and that's the US, or do you go to Miami, or do you go to LA or Chicago or a million other places, Mexico is the same. It's incredibly diverse. It has people from all over. It has 155 million people.

27:49 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

28:17 Jen From Expatsi: And you could live a million different lives in this one country. It even has every climate zone here, even if it's a little small, teeny amount of polar. And so don't think that the whole of Mexico is Cancun. The whole of Mexico is anything because it is so many different places in one.

28:36 Paula Barnes: Yeah.

28:42 Paula Barnes: That's good. That's good advice. Excellent. Thank you so much for coming on today. I know that I'm not even sure what time it is there, but I know it's late. So I think it's late. Don't know. Time zones for me, it's not great. OK, not too bad. So thank you again so much for coming on and I will put everything in the show notes for those who want to contact you guys because you do a great job. Yeah and I'll see you hopefully speak to you soon. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

29:27 Jen From Expatsi: Thanks so much, Paula. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Bye.

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