Episode 65: “ The Bay Area”

This episode we have back some familiar guest and friends of the show, we have back Jeff Coats ( Pitboss waterfowl) David Fletcher( Nanticoke outfitters) and Matt Osphal ( Maverick outfitters) and we sit down and talk about the amazing Chesapeake Bay, we talk what makes the Bay so great and how it provides more then those know, why the bay is so special to them, and what regulations have changed through the years and what is to come for the coming years 

All of these gentlemen are amazing guides and if you want to experience the peak of the Chesapeake Bay hit them up for an amazing experience 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back to another episode of the Blue Hen Outdoors Podcast. I'm pleased to have back some gentlemen, friends of the show, and we are here to talk about the Bay Area, the Reload Bay Area over here on the east coast of the Chesapeake Bay, and all that it has great to offer. How are you gentlemen doing tonight?

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Good. All is good. I'm sorry I'm a little bit late.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

You're good. You're good. Let's uh start off with how everybody's season went. We'll start with you first there.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Oh, okay. Um, it was good. Actually, we had uh yeah, we had a pretty good year. Now keep in mind uh on the waterfowl side, we do puddle ducks, divers, and sea ducks. We do about 80 puddle ducks. Um, and we had a pretty good year as you know, as we were talking before we started recording, it got a little sketchy right around the holidays when uh we had some of that cold weather come in and then uh things started icing up a little bit. But uh overall, I think it was a pretty good year. Uh, I think uh the divers actually that they kind of did what we wanted them to do because they started congregating in areas and and they were thick. And if you were lucky enough to to have access to those areas, you were you were definitely harvesting some good divers. So we had some good diver hunts, and uh, you know, and like I said, then we do a handful of sea dog hunts. We don't do a ton, but we do some, and uh, you know, and they were good this year too. Like we uh we had a across the board, probably one of the best years we've had in probably the last five years, the five years that I've been doing this uh full time. It was probably one of our best waterfowl years yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Awesome. What about you, Jeff?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Um, I would say it was it was uh an average year, average or so. Um just not seeing the numbers of birds that we we have in the past, the uh on the special 107-day seaduck season, the 60-day special seaduck season in the past few years, and we have not had the seaducks, the special seaduc season. Um, just not seeing as many as what we did. But that said, it's kind of fill it's silly. I did a uh podcast this morning, you know. Hey, it's slow, but well, how many did you shoot? Oh, we tried a limit, but it like to shoot 12 or 16, you know, we only saw 75 or 100 kind of thing. So it's it's it's it's been that kind of a year, it was that kind of a year for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yeah. What about you, Matt?

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Man's uh very similar to Jeff and Dave here. Uh, I I would call it average to below average. Um, for those who aren't familiar, Maverick outfitters focuses on uh puddle ducks and Canada goose hunting. So obviously the Canada Goose Limited, one bird. Uh, I wasn't charging people to go shoot Canada's uh last season. We mainly target as a uh bonus bird and we're hunting over water. But from a puddle duck perspective, uh, we were talking about this before. It was very um almost disheartening, right? November and December, I would say the early part of December, uh, right after the 15th, 16th there for about two weeks, was some of the best hunting I've ever had in my career here in Maryland. And I've been hunting here my whole life. Uh, when that cold front snap, whatever hit, uh you want to call it, I've never seen birds behave that way here. Uh, they seem to get concentrated in the very uh select areas, depending on food sources and kind of everything else going around. So, look, we had a good year. Uh, clients always have a good time. Um, you know, I just think to Jeff's point, from a puddle ducking uh perspective, much lighter numbers than what I saw last year. Um, you know, I think going forward, it's gonna be really interesting uh to see what happens with weather, right? It's one of those things where as a kid, and I I think I've talked about this before, November, we used to get, you know, that kind of like shitty sheet ice, right? Like nothing crazy. You can break it with your foot and not worry about it, but you're hunting. Um, and now we're at the point where it doesn't snow or freeze, it does both at the same time. And I'm hoping that that either happens earlier in the year, so it actually affects our migration, um, or it it just sort of steadily happens throughout the season. Because I think last year with with what occurred, those birds go into survival mode and and good on them, right? At the end of the day, it's it's we need a healthy population. So whatever it takes to get that done, I'm I'm fine. But in terms of our season, man, it's it's it's always a good year. Uh, but from a bird perspective, I'd call it average to below average for sure last season.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Oh yeah. On that note, how how did the uh cold affect your guys' seasons this year that came in late, like from freezing everything up at the end of January, middle of January? How is that kind of an effect? And how did you guys see the birds pushing through differently, if at all?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, uh look from a puddle duck's perspective, I'll I'll answer this from our end. Um, number one, it's it's a hell of a lot of work, right? And and I've always said this if you want to guide hunt or run an outfitter, um, you better enjoy the work, right? So I actually love it when this happens because you're you're operating in a different environment, right? You're running ice eaters most of the night. If you're hunting ponds and small water impoundments like we are, um, you're constantly dealing with gas, you're dealing with you know overworked staff that are also underpaid, right? So guys that are busting their ass uh all for the love of it, which is awesome, right? You really come together in those kind of moments. But from a hunting perspective, um, we were talking about if we move all of our hunts every year when it freezes to middle of the day, kind of early afternoon, and cut them off before these birds go to roost. So we're hunting, you know, called 11 to 2, 11 to 3, uh, and then we cut our hunts. So what's interesting about it is it's very different, right? You get to wake up a little later, which is nice, and that's a joke because you're still running eaters and everything else, you're not actually getting up later. But in terms of the effect it had on birds, like I was saying earlier, they got really concentrated into areas that you know typically they will concentrate in, but they weren't spread out at all, right? I mean, you had an area that's maybe holding 1,500, 2,000 ducks, and then an area that traditionally holds a decent many not holding any at all, right? So depending on who you talk to, uh, where I hunt on the eastern shore, um, I think it was the same, same kind of story, right? It was one of those things where that ice and that snow came and everyone got pretty fired up. And and we definitely got paid on a few of those days, but we also got burned on a few. And I think that's most everybody I talked to.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, and I can I'll add to that from a puddle duck standpoint, very similar. And it's funny, Matt, because um, we do the same thing. We we turn our hunts into 10 to 2, right? It become 10 to 2 hunts, which uh you know, I I get harassed by some of my buddies like, oh, it must be nice, you get to sleep in and go to work middle of the day, and you're still duck hunting every day. No, we're still out there trying to make sure everything's working and we don't have ice before the client shows up to uh to an iced over slough. Um, but uh yeah, it it was the it was the same thing, Hunter. You know, that that cold came in and we did have a nice push of birds, and then things started locking up and locking up fast. And that was when you know, for us, we do so many hunts by boat and we access so many places by boat. That changes things for us, right? So now you know we go from from having uh roughly 42 places to hunt to about 12. Um, and so that makes it tough because we got to hope that you know we got a couple of uh birds on those 12 spots and and we're not just going out to kill you know two birds, you know, we got to make it worthwhile. So it it got hard on us, it got hard fast. Um, but you know, when I I think back to that, there were some days that you know we we shut down at two o'clock because you know, we were we were either you know shooting limits or we shot at enough birds, we should have had a couple limits, and I I unfortunately had to stop. Like we had to like, hey guys, we can't educate every bird around here, we gotta shut this down, and you know, and it's a terrible thing to do, but when guys aren't getting the job done, um that's what we have to do sometimes. But there were other days we went out there and you know, the night before, you know, we had hundreds and hundreds of teal, especially, and then we go out there the next day and didn't see one, right? And you know, and that's just how it was. It was that's why I was saying earlier, it was just kind of a weird year. You know, we had to work a lot harder to to get it done, but there were a lot of times that uh you know, we it was pretty easy to get it done because we we did, we had the birds there, and then that I tell you that last week when that ice got so thick, we got pushed down to about four spots. I canceled some trips. I just I just canceled a couple. I you know, I had to I just had to, and I you know, last thing I wanted to do was try to get a boat out there. I knew that was gonna be a bad idea because all you ever do in that situation is is break things, right? You know, damaging your boat, ruining something. So uh it's just not worth it. So, you know, we had to uh we had to pull the plug on a couple of them, but um, but but overall it was it was actually enjoyable, it was a lot of fun. Um, and we have some some really funny videos of of guys on the ice and you know the dogs running across the ice and stuff like that. That uh, you know, it's always is good to share and talk about, but but uh, but yeah, overall it just it changed things, you know, it really it changed the ball game for us, and like I said, it happened almost overnight. Like we went out one day and was like, Oh, that ice is a little thicker than we thought. We went out the next day, it's like, holy cow, I don't think we're coming back tomorrow. Like, this this is icing up fast, and uh, and it did. And then, you know, for us, we had to kind of drop back and punt because we needed at that point make sure all of our our walk-in spots is what we refer to them as they were all ready to go because that's where we were gonna be. We knew that we were gonna be there for the next couple of weeks. Um, but uh, but yeah, that's kind of uh that's kind of how it it impacted us.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, I was gonna say, I know I really get out too much towards the tail end of season, but um I definitely heard that the ice and everything locked everything up and affected a lot of people's hunts and what they were able to do and like accessibility for things. But I will say on the flip side of that, it it did kind of help us out, and we were kind of talking about this earlier. I know in Maryland the limit for geese went from one to two, and after the fall came, the um I could say I've probably seen more Canada geese around here, and I've heard from like up in Jersey, down through here in Maryland, than we've probably seen in the past couple years because of the case.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah, man, if you were a Canada goose owner, yeah. If you were a Canada goose owner last year, like a purist, it was killing you, right? I mean, that that one birth limit, you can say what you will about it, or populations increased, it seems to be doing well. Um, the amount of Canadas last year on the shore was impressive, right? And um, you know, they moved out what probably two months here, a month and a half ago. And I can tell you, if we were running Canada goose hunts, it'd be a little different conversation than than puddle ducks, right? It was it was pretty nuts. And and you think about timing in terms of hunting Canada's where that's your primary focus on any hunt, like your field hunting of a pit or layouts, whatever you're doing. Last year's weather, if you could time them up and get them in a pattern, you were in the money, right? I mean, it was it was a beautiful sight to see. Um, so I I agree with you there, Hunter. That the Canada goose numbers look great.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, Jeff, how'd the cold weather affect your guy season down there? Sea Doc hunting.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, cold weather doesn't really affect us as much as just wind. You know, it was a it was a very especially earlier season, it was a very windy season, but you know, wind wind is what affects me. The cold not so much.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Yeah. Now, Hunter, he says the wind affects him, but I see him still out there on some of them snotty days. And I tell you what, buddy, I don't know, I don't know how them shooters can get it done because I've seen some of your videos, man. I'm talking, they're way up, way down, way up.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Oh, yeah. Probably a um a memorable morning would be New Year's Day, where it was kind of uh, especially when the ocean was just kind of out of the south, southeast, and you it was forecast to kick in and it did. We could see it coming, and like it blew, and there was about a 30 a good 30 minutes or so, 30, 40 minutes, or like like I I kept saying to you guys, good, you good, you good, you good, you good. And then the wind kind of like kind of fell out a little bit, not much, but it definitely was not as intense as what it was when the the the front came through, but yeah, uh day in and day out wind is always my issue.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, it's everybody's issue in some form or fashion, but yours is definitely more definitely factor, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Oh, yeah, for sure. Well, we're talking about the bay area tonight. What is so significant and what is like the main draw to the Chesapeake Bay area as far as hunting?

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Well, I'll go ahead and start on that one. I tell you what, Hunter, if it wasn't for the Chesapeake Bay, my friend, I would not be in the state of Maryland. The Chesapeake Bay is what keeps me here, honestly. There's a lot of other places that I would rather live, but you know, you grow up doing this, right? You you grow up grow up fishing the bay, you grow up crabbing, going down to the beach in ocean city, fishing in ocean city, duck hunting all up and down, you know, the bay, both sides, west side and east east side, you know. So when you do that, it's hard to go somewhere else, you know, because you can't find all the things that we have in a lot of other places. Now, doesn't mean there's not a lot of other places that are really good to be in, and those people probably feel the same way that we do. But you know, the great thing about being here on the bay is the versatility, right? And and you have so many different things you can do, and like I said, during the the summer months, you've got great fishing, whether it's rockfish, perch, you know, whatever. Now you got the snakeheads or the Chesapeake Chanas all over the place, right? So you've got a lot of great opportunity to catch delicious fish, go down towards the beach, catching your flounder, going out, getting your sea bass, your tuna. You know, these are all things that we have access to all summer long. And then once hunting starts, I mean, think about all the great hunting we have, not only on the waterfowl side, because on the waterfowl, we pretty much have almost every bird, almost every species. Not uh, we don't have all right, but we're pretty close. We've got a lot of volatility here. And when when you look at outside of duck hunting, we've got good white tail, right? We we are definitely a sleeper state when it comes to white tail. We've got some nice white tail. We shot 171 inch last year, we shot 174 inch this year, so we've got nice white tails, we got seeked deer, which obviously very, very few places have seeked deer. Um, you know, everyone always throws at me, oh, we got them in Long Island, yeah, you do, but you can't hunt them, so there's that, right? So it's like that's why it's so great to be here, right? That's what keeps me here. I don't want to pay these taxes, I don't want to deal with all the BS that we got to deal with and the regulations, and you know, it's sometimes I wonder if if the the people making the laws and the rules for us even understand what we do, but it's hard to leave it, right? Because it's just uh it it really it checks a lot of boxes, at least for me personally. So that's that's my thought on the bay.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

What about you, Jeff?

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Well, well, uh, I mean, I was born at Havdegrace way back in the day, so at the head of the bay, uh Western Shore resident for a very long time before we moved over here. And um, yeah, I mean it's it's um Chesapeake Bay is the is the largest estuary in North America, so it's it it encompasses a lot, you know, in Maryland and Virginia, and um it's it's uh uh land-based, water-based, uh lots of food from lots of proteins have outs from anything you want to shoot to anything you want to try to catch from the bottom. So it's it's uh it is a it is a very unique place for sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Oh yeah. What you got to add to that, Matt?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Uh look, man, it's home. Uh I'm similar to to Jeff's background. I'm a Western Shore guy in terms of you know where I was born and raised and uh spent a lot of time on the Eastern Shore. And and I kind of make this uh connection where look, a lot of people think of New York City or think of New York as New York City. But if you spent time enough say New York, it's like two different countries. And it's the same thing with with Maryland, right? The Western Shore and the Eastern Shore, two very different ecosystems, two very different uh lifestyles, just different, right? I prefer the eastern shore. Uh, unfortunately for me, uh my wife needs to be apparently closer to the western side. So uh I guess I'm a daily commuter. But uh with that being said, the eastern shore, it's it's special, right? From a hunting perspective to Dave's point and Jeff's point, you can do anything, right? And I think that's that's special. I've hunted all over the U.S., but um in Maryland, it's it's one of the only states I know of where you can shoot a pintail mallard, a greenwing teal, a uh canvas back, you know, anything you can think of, right? On the same hunt, it's pretty cool from a mixed bag standpoint. And then something I'm I was surprised no one else touched on is just the tradition, right? The Chesapeake Bay in general. If you were a kid and and your parents spent time on the shore, uh and you've been to the different museums seeing kind of the history and the tradition of the place, it's pretty special, right? And for me not to be romantic about it, but getting to continue on uh a piece of that, uh albeit a small one, um, means a lot to me, right? So you you see everything from market gunning to what guys are doing today. Uh, I mean, look at the differences on this call, right? You got three guys who hunt very different areas of the bay, uh, very different varieties of birds. Um, it's it's a pretty special place. And not to mention, look, you're when you think about this from a business perspective, you're not far from New York City, you're not far from Jersey, you're not obviously far from PA, Virginia's right next door. You got North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida. Uh we have clients that come all the way from Texas every year. Um, and I think it's a it's a pretty huge draw, right? So when you get on the shore, especially in the fall and winter, I know a lot of people enjoy it more than the summer, but you get there in the fall and the winter, it's just a different feel to it. And I think it's special and and I think it's hard to replicate.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Oh, yeah, for sure. Definitely history and tradition is a big, big part of our area as well. I mean, and from like you said, Matt, market gunning to body booting to uh, you know, just having a big waterfowl scene in general, and I mean Davy touched on we have we're very very stuck-down area for big decent whitetail. Yep. I mean, we we got it all.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah, I I I think it's it's hard to beat. Um, you know, and and I I think going forward, it's one of those things that that it really needs to become, you know, a conversation, especially from guys like us who are running businesses that revolve around it, to where we all do need to kind of look come together and understand that something needs to be protect uh protected, right? Especially in if we're just being honest, Maryland's gone from a purple state to a blue state uh pretty quickly, uh in a dark blue state, right? So um, what I mean by that is is we as as business owners, as hunters, as as individuals who want to enjoy all the things we get to enjoy day in and day out, probably need to do more from the sense of educating people about what the shore has, the tradition behind it, the history behind it, and why that's such an important piece of of what and who Maryland is.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Oh, yeah, for sure. What's your guys' opinions on? I mean, I know the past couple years have kind of changed the regulations and changed like numbers and how things are done around here. How has that affected your guys' businesses and how has it like just affected the hunting in general, do you think? I mean, going from like the goose limits to extending seasons, cutting them shorter, bumping them a couple weeks, to I even I don't know if you've heard of it, they even correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they were saying that they're gonna bring a stag uh thing out for the seeked deer.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Right. Yeah, that is that is on the books. We might uh we might have that. Uh, do not think it has been approved yet. Um, but it looks like they're gonna try to do that. I'm assuming it's gonna get approved, just like it did on the whitetail side. Um, so that that will that will impact the recreational hunter, um, but that won't impact us as an outfitter, uh, only because as an outfitter, we're we're going after trophy stags. So we already have a minimum point requirement, uh, which is three points on one side. So it really, that's why I said it won't impact us, but you know, they they when I say they, the state uh increased that out of state Sika stamp to$200. And you know, of course, at first I was like, holy cow, that's not good for us. Like, what's gonna happen? Um, but honestly, it did not make a difference, right? I mean, I lost one repeat customer and it was out of spite. Wasn't that he couldn't couldn't afford it, he just refused to to spend that kind of money for a stamp. And and I get it. Um, but you know, it it did not impact us at all. And and anytime I've ever had anybody talk about it, they always compare it to hey, if I went on a hunt on the in the Midwest or I wanted to go on a Western hunt, I'd be spending X. It's a lot more than that$200 stamp. So um I think you know that that didn't. Really hurt us. You know, I think one of the things over the past, let's say, three to five years, and Jeff should definitely be able to talk more about this, was just the change to the sea duck season. Like it was nice because at one point on the waterfowl side, when Maryland was in, Delaware was out. And then Maryland went out, Delaware would come in. And so we were able to, you know, pretty much hunt a lot, right? Until that third split, and then we were all in. But during the first two splits, we had a lot of opportunity to hunt Delaware if Maryland was out. And if you didn't go to Delaware, you'd go sea duck hunting. Well, you know, that all went right out the window. Um, but I do think that that that certainly you know changed the game for for some guys because there's a lot of guys that that are on the the bay, especially on the lower end by me, that's all they do are sea duck hunts, and you know, now all of a sudden they go from 107 days to 60 days. So um, but again, I'll let I'll let Jeff touch on that because that's that's his area of expertise. But you know, I think overall we haven't had too many changes that really hurt us. Um, and and I honestly I hope they they pass that regulation on the the Sika deer. Um, because you know I have neighbors, right? And I own a lot of the land that we hunt, and I have neighbors, and they will shoot anything that walks by because they're delicious, and I get it, and I I can't fault them for that. Um, but at the same time, I'm trying to manage, you know, on my my land. Well, it's hard to manage, you know, a piece of property that's only 50 acres, and you know, your neighbor's got 15 over here, and another neighbor has 15 over there, and and so forth, and they all want to shoot, it's gonna happen, right? So you can't really manage the 50 acres the way you'd like to. Um, but I think that that's a step in the right direction. Um, I do think that it it's somewhat hypocritical of the state because you know, we went from it's invasive to hey, now we can make money off of this, so we're gonna have a 200 stamp or you know, first have a stamp, and then let's make it 200. Hey, now we're now let's make it you know so that we can have more of them around, let's make it more sustainable so that we can keep making this money. So it is kind of funny that the state would do that, but um, but but yeah, overall, nothing has really uh had too much of a negative impact on us, you know. I think with the goose that hurt um going to one bird, but we're so focused on our puddle ducks, you know. I don't even do a ton of the September early season goose, um, mostly because I would be hunting over water, uh, because a lot of the farms that that I lease and our family farm, we don't even get a cut in time, and so I don't like the book hunts and then you know not be able to hunt the field the way I told them we hunt the field. So I don't do I don't even do that, and I and I know Matt's able to do that, um, but we don't do that one, so you know it didn't hurt me too bad. But now that it goes to two birds, it'll be a little bit more enjoyable. So we uh we did book some uh coming up for next year. We did go ahead and book some early season that we normally wouldn't, uh, but we're going to because uh getting out there and you know shooting some good birds early season, and then once we get into the regular season, being able to shoot two birds, because I get a lot of guys that that's all they do are goose hunt, so they'll come early season, shoot their birds, and they'll come again a couple of times. Um, and I I feel good about that. Whereas one bird, I I just I couldn't charge somebody money to come kill one bird, it just didn't feel right. Um, so we didn't do it, but so we're excited to do it this year, though.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Oh yeah. What about you, Jeff?

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Yeah, I think uh with ducks with me and and what I've done over the years, it's all kind of relative, right? So the bag limit and the seasons have gotten smaller, smaller, smaller. Um, but I I still think that if you told me that or you told every told everybody that scoter limit was one, I still have people to want to shoot a scoter, right? So it's just like going for a harlequin. You would everybody wants to, I won't say everybody, but many people want to shoot a harlequin. So, you know, they they can go to the state of Washington and and on a on a permit and shoot one, or they go to Alaska and shoot four for non-residents. So I still think uh as as as the seasons and the back limits get lowered, it's all relative to what people have done in the past and what they have not done currently or into the future. That you know, that there's still there's still gonna be a a there's still gonna be many people that will want to do um to shoot birds and whatever birds to have to shoot, even if the limit is is much lower than what I know that they were in the past.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

What about Jeff? Do you think I'm sorry? Do you think the uh the sea duck limit will change any more than it already has? Do you think you see it going any lower than than three and one?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Well, how about this? Um when I first started duck hunting, the the regular season, and I said this this morning, the regular season was 30 days, three birds. So if we go to a 40 in the Atlantic flyway, we could have a we we have a very liberal season at 60 days, moderate season 45, conservatives 30. So if they want to cut you know uh chop it back to 45 or 30 days, that's gonna be the sea duck season, also. So um, yes, I can I can see it being less than what it is currently.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yeah, this is um, you know, I'll kind of piggyback off what both these guys have said, and obviously, there's a lot of um experience I think on this call. My answer is gonna sound a little bit probably different. Uh I'm trying not to sound like a hippie. Um, but look, for me, it comes back to this is a resource that's not you know everlasting, right? So at the end of the day, whatever we can do as waterfowl hunters, you know, because that's what I'm focused on to protect our populations, uh, I'm in favor of, right? So look, I saw more, you want to talk about Canada goose hunting? I saw more candid geese on uh, you know, in the three counties I hunt last year than I've seen in a long time. And that's been the last two years, right? So last year and the year before that, there are plenty of candy geese around. Um, but with that being said, how much of that is attributed to the fact that we've had a one-bird limit? And you can make the argument that people aren't hunting, but look, excuse my language, that's bullshit. Because I drive from Kent County down to Queen Anne's County every day, and every field has a blind in it. Most of the time, there's a spread set with guys hunting Monday through Saturday. So for me, it comes back to a conversation of as long as we're doing, or as long as the flyway council and the Atlantic flyway as a whole is doing what we need to do to protect the population, I'm in favor of whatever they think is right. Right. So, look, I can disagree with them. I don't think everything they do is correct. Uh, you know, I don't think there's anyone in the world that would agree with everything someone said. Um, but again, at the end of the day, for me, it comes back to how do we protect populations and how do we make sure that my son, um, you know, who's a five-month-old baby right now, can hunt the same way that I get to now, right? We've been in a liberal framework, 60-day seasons with liberal limits for a very long time. And if you've studied any sort of history with waterfowl hunting, usually it's coming up and down. So the fact that we've been a liberal season for this long, at some point, to Jeff's point, I would assume that it's going to go to moderate or conservative or restrictive, however, you want to word it, um, at some point in the near future. But in terms of going forward, look, I'm not against uh a four-bird puddle duck limit where you're only allowed to shoot Drake mallards, right? I'm okay with that. And look, we can get into the conversation of are there wild mallards in the Atlantic fly we begin with, but uh, you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. So um, my my point is I'm okay with whatever they want to do from a population standpoint, as long as there's data to prove that whatever they're doing is helping these populations thrive. So for me, we were talking about it off the call earlier. It all comes back to breeding grounds, and we've been in a drought cycle for the last four to five years, right? So, how do we get water back onto these traditional breeding grounds? How can we do more to support these organizations that are working to do so? Um, that's much more of a conversation that I want to have. But in terms of Maryland, look, a two-bird goose limit's awesome, right? There's been a lot of outfitters in the state that have run great goose hunts for a really long time. And goose hunting's a pretty damn good time. I think all of us can agree, right? You get in a pit, you cook breakfast. It's much more of a gentleman's hunt than say a puddle duck hunt. Um, and you know, it's pretty special. So I'd be lying to you if I said I'm not excited about a two-bird goose limit, but for me, it's just how do we get these populations healthier and and how can we help? That's that's my biggest focus.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Oh, yeah. If there was anything you guys would change as far as like if if you could go to the Maryland DNR, go to Maryland lawmakers and say this is the change that we need, and they do it tomorrow. What would one of those changes be, if any?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

It's been an interesting group of answers here.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Why don't you take it, Matt? Start us off.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yeah, look, um, I don't think I'm saying anything that's not out there already, but Sunday hunting is a pretty hot topic, right? And the problem is it's one of those issues where I understand it from everyone's point of view, right? I understand it from a guy who's working a nine to five Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday that wants to hunt with his kid, you know, and get an extra day. But here's the problem with Maryland, and people don't pay attention to this enough. Saturdays, we kill quadruple the birds that we kill during the week. It's just a fact. Why? Because more people can hunt. If you add another day of intense pressure where everybody's off and everybody's hunting everything from cannabis to puddle ducks, I think it's gonna have a massive effect, right? At the end of the day, nobody wants to have this discussion either, but upstate New York is holding a hell of a lot more birds than it used to, weather dependent, whatever you want to talk about, right? So if we add another pressure day, are we gonna hold more or less birds? Another really high pressure day, right? So my thing is if I could do anything, it's banned Sunday hunting permanently. And that's surprising, that's counterintuitive to me being successful as a business. It'd be a hell of a lot easier for me as a business to run hunts Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays than me running six in a row, right? It'd be a hell of a lot easier. But I'm losing right the chance at not only being more profitable, but running more hunts, giving people more experiences by not hunting on Sundays. But my opinion, based off what I've seen, Sunday hunting, especially from a Canada goose perspective, would cause some serious damage. But again, I'm probably gonna get, you know, I don't know, destroyed for saying that. So we'll see what happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

What about you, Dave?

SPEAKER_03 32:49

You know, so it's funny, I was gonna bring up Sunday hunting as well, Matt. Um, because it's such a hot topic right now for us. Um you know, and I know we now have it in Delaware. And you know, I I feel as if I see the the guy that that Monday through Friday, you know, he's got his job, so he wants to be able to hunt Saturday and Sunday, not just Saturday, you know, you know, my son or my son's got to go to a little Johnny's birthday party on Saturday, and I gotta do that. I can't hunt on Saturday, so I don't get to hunt on weekend, right? And so, you know, I get all that, but it's interesting because I just listened to a podcast, it may have been a week ago, and they were talking about the numbers and talking about whether or not having that extra day on a weekend would impact the harvest numbers, and of course it will because you're gonna have more hunters, right? So it certainly will. Um, but it was interesting because these guys were talking about. So, what do we do? Do we shut down a couple days during the week or do we you know just go to a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday? That's the the hunt week, you know. And it's like sadly, I don't know if there is a right answer, right? I think there's a right answer for every individual person, but it's not the same answer. Um, but my take on it, and uh, you know, Matt, it kudos to you for for you know, you there's an opportunity you can make more money for sure, right? Yeah, the way I look at it as is if I was gonna now I'm gonna run another day of hunts on my property because you know, we can't the state of Maryland, we we're not guiding on public land, it's all private. So this is we either own it or release it, which means we're hunting the same areas. So that now means I need more property. So my expenses just went up. Now I'm charging more. Now I got more property to manage. I've got clients or uh guides that work for me that now I gotta pay them more because they got more work to do and more property, more blinds, more grasses or more uh blinds to grass, and and so forth. Um I don't I don't see it from a business perspective, I don't see it as a good thing. Um, I wouldn't I wouldn't want it. Um, and I would be concerned with our our duck numbers for sure, because we already have a duck number issue, right? We have a population issue, and I don't think that you know having a heavily hunted day like that is gonna help anything. Um, I think it's it's the right thing for the people to give the people the opportunity, good way of putting it, yeah. Right, but I just I don't think overall it's gonna be good for us, it's gonna lead us down a path to you know, maybe even a potential moratorium at some point. And and and honestly, that's why when I first started this business, all I wanted to do was waterfowl. That was it. I love waterfowl, my passion is waterfowl. You know, we go to North Dakota, we go to Saskatchewan, you know, my myself and my sons, and that's that's just what we do. We love waterfowl, then we come back here and we work, you know, taking clients out. I've always been worried about the season. That's why I asked Jeff earlier what his thought was uh about the the the future with this, because I started seeking deer hunting and white tail hunting because I worry about the future of the waterfowl, right? Because at the end of the day, I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to ever go back to having a real job. I'd like my job, I want to I want to make sure I can make enough money doing this job. Um, and so that's why we started doing the deer hunting.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Well, and Dave, to to add to your point, look, ducks and and Canada geese are very resilient species, right? If you give them time to recover, they're going to recover. But again, the conversation is okay, by the time they get down to Maryland, how much pressure they already had, and then how much pressure are they going to continue to have while they're here? Right, right. No different than hunting any other sort of species. The problem is with waterfowl, is you have 60 days, right? Now, realistically, let's be honest about that. Your season, if you're a can, and I'm just talking puddle ducks can of the geese, but realistically, your season cuts in on December 15th or 16th, and it runs through the end of January. So I think this year it means it closes on January 30th, which is the last Saturday, right? So if you just do the math on that, you're getting four Saturdays in January, and you're getting what, maybe two, maybe three Saturdays in December. So most guys, to your point earlier, Dave, are realistically going to be able to hunt seven times in December and January. We haven't talked lease costs, we haven't talked anything. We haven't talked about clubs, we haven't talked about anything regarding um how guys actually hunt. But if you just look at pressure, that number jumps from seven to 14 real quick, if you allow Sundays. Now you have two incredibly high pressure days. So I saw the same conversation you did where guys are like, why don't we open up, you know, or uh shut down a Wednesday in the middle of the week? Well, it's a low pressure day, right? Wednesday already, you you've got few and far between. Um, so for me, you know, it is really hard because as a as a hunter, I want everybody to be able to hunt. I'm not just saying that, I mean that. I want people to be able to hunt with their kids on Saturdays and Sundays. I went to school in upstate New York, I can hunt on Sundays. I go to North Dakota every year, you can hunt on Sundays. If you Colorado most years, I can hunt on Sundays, right? But it's different. So in Maryland, we have this really precious sort of you know ecosystem here where if you start screwing with pressure entirely, especially from a bird hunting perspective, I think it's going to cause problems. And I'm just being totally honest here. And Canada goose hunters in particular should be the ones who are the most concerned about this. I'm actually not concerned about it from a puddle duck perspective. From a numbers conversation, what I'm more concerned about is flooded corn turning our puddle ducks almost completely nocturnal as soon as they've been here for longer than four or five days. Right. So I'm not concerned with puddle ducks from the sense of pressure on a Sunday. Of course, it's going to have an effect. What I'm really concerned about is a Canada goose population. And that's just me being honest. I'd be Jeff, I'd be curious as to your answer or your thoughts on this, with your how long you've been doing it and obviously your experience.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yeah, I don't have a dog in the fight on Sunday hunting, but if you had the best interest of the 40-hour, 50-hour week guy that has killed children, youth hunters, why would you not have Sunday hunting? Sunday hunting is it's about the opportunity to go. And how many Sundays are you getting out of the season? You said uh six or so. It's actually in 60 days, it's eight, eight Sundays. Um, everybody else has it. If you if Maryland wants to be the state, the only state in the Atlantic flyway that doesn't have Sunday hunting, I guess that's that's the way it's gonna be. Um, but again, if you have, in my opinion, and again, I I don't care. I'm gonna go generally as many days as I can go, whether it's whatever you say the season is, that's the amount of days I'm gonna go. So I I don't care. I like NFL football, I like having Sundays off, but I'm not the average guy, right? I don't work 40 hours a week, I don't work 50 hours a week, I don't have children that are young. And if I if I did, Sunday would be, I think that Sunday would be an important day that I could get them children out into the afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

I talked to somebody uh today from Delta Waterfowl that was into children's programs, youth programs, and I think that's it's like a no-brainer that why would you go to the that's a really interesting point because I look, I remember when I was in high school or even middle school, I used to get really pissed, right, that you couldn't hunt on Sundays when I'm in middle school or high school. Because as a kid, you're going to school Monday through Friday. If you're lucky, you don't have a game on a Saturday, so you and your dad can go hunt, right? On a Saturday. Um, but taking away that Sunday, it makes it really hard. And I think that was kind of Dave's and and Hunter's question, too, of her point as well, that it's a really hard conversation to have. Um, what I'd be interested in, Jeff, is almost like a uh middle ground there, right? Where what would be unique is on Sundays if you almost made it where kids under 18 or under 16 can on Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

If you look, if you look at the Senate bill, that's the way it was written, and that's what got I I hadn't seen it.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I just saw it got repealed.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

It was it was only the for the next three years, the next three seasons, Sunday hunting, specifically for Canada Goose in Maryland, was gonna be for youth hunters or senior hunters. That's actually really cool. I like that's what that's that's what got knocked down at the end. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

So senior hunters, what 65 and above, and youth hunters 16 and less. Wow. Holy smokes. Okay, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

I didn't know that it that's that's that's what got nixed when everybody went to the state house and said and they all testified saying no Sunday hunting for water, you know, for geese. Yep, and that's what it was. It was it wasn't it for the next three years, it was gonna be youth youth could shoot geese, seniors could shoot geese, everybody could shoot ducks.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Oh, everybody could shoot ducks, okay. And was it I had seen something, was it private property only, too? No, no, it wasn't. Okay, interesting. Nope. So ducks would have been open on Sundays. How would that have affected our uh I'm the same as you, Jeff, and I think Dave's the same too. I'm hunting every day, it's available, right? But with that being said, there was some talk that I had seen saying essentially if we allowed Sunday hunting, we'd lose days on the back end. Is that accurate or is that just hearsay?

SPEAKER_02 42:29

No, it's 60-day season of 60 days. What they were gonna do is read readjust October and November so that October, uh December, December 15th to January 31st would be the same.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

They needed to find October split as is.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

So they needed to find eight Sundays. So you would so off October and November, there will be eight days taken off there, so that December, that Tuesday in December to the end of January would be the same, except they would add Sundays.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

That's look, you learn something new every time you you talk to somebody, right? But it is it's interesting because there's so many guys with so many different viewpoints. Um, and like I said earlier, look, I I always worry about pressure. That's because I think Mary, Maryland is a really delicate sort of relationship with our birds that do migrate here. Um, and like I said to you guys earlier, I'm a I'm a believer in taking care of our of our resources first, but it is interesting. I didn't know that in the bill that it was youth and seniors. That's that's an interesting point that never came out publicly that I saw.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

I mean, it's it's in the bill to read it, so it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

It's really, really interesting. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

What would what would you guys say is one of the big selling points, so to speak, to come over here and hunt versus anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Are you asking from the sense of uh I'm assuming from clients who book hunts with all of us? Yes. It's an Interesting conversation because again it's different depending on who you're talking to. So if you're talking to Maryland residents, right, the conversation becomes well, I've been out in the Midwest, and look, anybody who runs a hunting outfitter tells you, you know, at least in the puddle ducks and and Canada goose game that says they they shoot a 10-man every day, like I said earlier, it's full of shit. Maybe on the sea duck side, but puddle ducks, canada goose, I don't care where you're on the country, it's not true. Um, I have clients who hunt with some of the top outfitters in the US every single year in the Midwest. Um, they'll have good hunts and bad hunts, right? It's a part of the game. It's it's called hunting for a reason. So when you have guys that start to do math on it, where I can go Midwest, pay, call up$3,500 a gun for a few great meals and some really good hunts. Um, or I can book four or five hunts in Maryland, financially, it might make more sense, right? But when you take the finances out of it, same conversation we had earlier, you have a really nice mixed bag. It's a beautiful area to hunt with a ton of history and a ton of tradition. Um, so you get a lot of you know interested parties who want to travel to to you know hunt the eastern shore of Maryland and and what it has to offer. But you start doing the math on these kind of things, that that becomes a lot more of the conversation, usually, and I'm sure Dave and Jeff experience that as well.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Yeah, for us, it's really on the waterfowl side, we have two two different clientele. We have our locals that hunt with us three or four times a year, and they do that because they they compare it to a lease. If they were going to lease a farm and that they're going to you know build a blind and do all that additional work, it's easier to just come hunt with us three or four times a year, right? So we've we've got that local clientele that hunts with us, and and a lot of these have have hunted with me for years, um, and and like you said, it's three or four times a year, and then we've got guys that are just checking boxes, you know. We get the the guy that you know he's doing the the 41 challenge or whatever challenge and that that's new this week, and you know, he's gonna show up so he can check some boxes. Um, you know, so we get guys that'll call us and and hey, I need a black duck. Okay, well, come on. And uh, you know, we we we get a lot of those guys, and they're the ones that obviously are are traveling, um, you know, and and coming and and staying staying here with us for a couple days. You know, I just had a guy this past year from Wisconsin that had never seen a live brand, and that was one of the few birds he had left. He wasn't doing any challenges, but he's 78 and had never killed a brand. And you know, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna jump through hoops, rings of fire for you because I want to get you a brand. And we got him one. And uh, you know, so you know, those are those are really the two basic clientele for us on the on the duck side. Um, and that's that's why people hunt with us, and and I think that you know it's a little bit different when you look at our our deer side, you know, that gets a little bit different. You know, the seek deer, why do they hunt with us? Well, a this is where you can get them, right? You you kind of limited. There's a handful of us here that are guides and outfitters for seek deer. Um, and and on the seeked deer side, this past year we were 73 rebook, so you know, we've got a lot of guys that just keep coming back, and and which is cool because they become friends, and it's not like you gotta kind of feel them out and and figure them out and their hunting approach and their mentality. You already know them, you know, you've hung out with them, we've sat around the campfire, we we've had drinks together and and broke bread. So um, I like that. Um, and so you know, on that side, like I said, it's different. They're coming because they either they want to check that box, they're gonna kill one and they're out, or they just love chasing seek a deer. And for them, it's hard for them to come to town and get a lease. Um, it's hard for them to go to Blackwater and you know try to hunt that public. That is not friendly, uh, you know, the terrain there. Um, so it's easier for them to spend the money to just come and and hunt with us and go sit in this big beautiful box blind over a feeder at 20 yards, right? It's it's definitely a gentleman's hunt. We try to make it as as easy as possible. Um, and so like I said, that's that's kind of what drives the the deer side of the business, you know. It's that's that's what they're doing. They're they're either checking that box or they just love doing it and they just keep coming back. Um, but yeah, that's that's kind of our thing. And I don't know, uh, for you, Jeff, I don't know if you get a lot of guys that are just looking to put that mount on the wall and you don't see them again, or you got a lot of repeats.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Yeah, no, I think it it's bucket list hunts for me. Um I do have groups that come back you know yearly, but I would say if I had to put a percentage, I'd say 80, 90 percent is gonna be it's bucket list. There's uh only so many days of the season, only so much money to travel, and people are wanting to check those birds off their list. So I think that's more of what uh more of what I experienced.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

That's a huge lift. So you're having to replace 80 to 90 percent of your clients every year.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Well, you say replace, but I mean like I'm full now, I'm full now for next year.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

So it's it's not yeah, no, no, not I was gonna say Matt, that's that's pitfalls right there, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

No, no, I'm I'm going to uh get on that on that list. It's it's an interesting, no, I'm saying it's it's a very different model, right? It's it's interesting because of of the species. Yeah, right. That's it, it's a testament to how good of a job you do, and the fact that you are able to rebook that many guys every single year. That's that's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

But but it's more it's more of the speed, it's more of the resources and species where that's that's how many people want to shoot that bird. So like once I'm I'm full, I'm full, and it turns into, I'm sure they go to other places, but at the same time, like I'm booking for 27, 28. Yeah. Um, you know, that kind of thing. So it it becomes very, you know, maybe the like past five or six years where like I'm like I get almost I it I become fuller quicker, if that makes sense. Um again, it's just it's just because there's again, there's only so many days, like I said, there's only so many days and so much money, and people want to check those birds off their list. So um, it's the kind of thing where like it just happens for me. I get fuller quicker. Makes sense. Uh I fuller, that doesn't sound right. But anyway, I become to capacity quicker each season, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

How many, uh, Jeff, how many? This is just out of curiosity on the sea dog side, it's obviously different from what I do, and and this is honest curiosity. How many of your guys take birds home when they leave? Are they taking all of them to get them all mounted, or what are they doing with them?

SPEAKER_02 50:28

I don't know that they're taking them all to get mounted, but they definitely they take them all. And um, if they don't, if they're not an Airbnb or have the ability to freeze them, we freeze them here. But generally, typically, generally typically guy again, these the the clientele that I have, they're traveling to hunt, and they it's not an issue for them to travel with birds, so they're they're already in the track, yeah. Yeah, they're already a couple couple steps ahead where they know what they're gonna do, and or they and or we ship birds for people to wherever the tax nervous is that you know help them out.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

That's really cool. Okay, I I've always wondered that it's it's always it's curious, that's awesome. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Oh, yeah. Hey Matt, I do have a couple of recipes if you like to try for sea ducks. That's not my thing. I've no, I'm not kidding you. So look, my wife is a good cook, and he has played with sea ducks for years. Yeah, I mean, years. She she has finally found a recipe a few years ago, and it's it we would actually feed it to the kids. You know, I got five sons, and they didn't even know that it was sea ducks. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

So I I mean I've been sea duck hunting one time, uh, and I tried to eat it, it didn't work well for me. That doesn't mean anything, right? Look, you can cook a lot of things the wrong way and have it taste bad. So it's it's uh uh it's just always something I've been interested in, interested in kind of finding out what guys are doing with them and and what's going from there. So it's yeah, well, it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 51:54

It's funny. I've had I've had some clients, you know, on sea duck hunts. We'll you know, we'll go out and they'll they'll shoot their limit, and then they're like, Well, I just want this one to mount it. I'm like, what are you gonna do with those? They're like, Oh, I don't know. I'm like, Well, I'm gonna take them because they're like, Well, what are you gonna do? I'm like, I'm gonna eat it. Yeah, no, that's awesome. They don't believe me. And I'm like, nope, and I use I'll send them a picture or something, I'll be like, trust me, man. Just a different one. I'll send you the recipe because it's it's my wife does has done a pretty good job with it. To uh, like I said, if we can if we can fool the the kids and and have them eating it, and uh, right? Yeah, we're doing something right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

What's your opinion on that, Jeff, as far as the sea ducks being trash to eat?

SPEAKER_02 52:34

So again, talked about it this morning. Like, I I can't speak for old school, but definitely scoter. They're gonna be they're eating clams and muscles, they're high in protein, high in iron. They're gonna be livery, if anything. They're not gonna be fishy, they're the meat's gonna be livery, it's very dark. So if you take the time to soak them out a day or two, um, they're very edible. And um, it's just about it to me, it's it's first off, your your palate of what you what you you know, what you like, what you don't like, but definitely if you take the time to soak them out, um, you definitely you know you can give them at like like 50% less red or less dark than what they were when you put them in to soak them out. And once you get that blood out of them, that's that's where the the the the strong taste or the livery taste is gonna be, I think.

SPEAKER_03 53:20

And then the to follow up to what Jeff said, that's what my wife Shannon does. She'll so she'll do that, and then she'll do another soak with virgin olive oil. And I tell you, I don't I don't know why, but that virgin olive oil just it it works magic on them. Like it, it's it's hard to tell the difference between a puddle duck and a scooter. I'm not kidding you.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

That's awesome. Like I said, man, I'm I'm not a sea duck guy, I've just I've always been curious. It's that's cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Well, I got one final question for you gentlemen before we wrap up tonight. It's not my famous why question because you've all answered that on your own episodes, but I have another question from my repeats, as you guys are tonight, and it is what is or what is what was your aha moment as far as guiding and getting into hunting or anything of that nature?

SPEAKER_02 54:21

Am I gonna go?

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Yeah, you're good to go, Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Yeah, my my aha moment is this is not a normal job, and and and that's that's what really hooked me on it. Like this is not what everybody does. This is something I can make money at, and it's not the stereotypical, you know, again, I mentioned 40, 50, 60 hour week job. Donald Hughes wrote just outside her lock, he's he helped me dial this in, and uh in I met him in 1996. He taught me the internet, and um, you know, by 1999, I was ready to take it and run. And that's that's uh that's that's that's truly what I do. I I enjoy being outdoors, I enjoy being on the water, I enjoy waterfowl, I enjoy everything that there is about it, but I the what I enjoy most is this is not what everybody does.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Oh, yeah. Yep. What about you, Dave?

SPEAKER_03 55:20

Yeah, I think for me, um you know, I was uh, you know, I I owned my own business, and you know, so I had some flexibility in my schedule, and I just I I just loved waterfowl and uh being a father of five sons that I was taking waterfowl hunting all the time, which is like guiding, right? It it's not any different when you take little ones with you, whether they're you know five years old or 15 years old, you're guiding. And um, you know, I was like, I kind of really enjoyed it, and I liked working with kids, um other people's kids more than my own kids, but um, and then it really my I think the the moment it hit me that I wanted to do this full time was when COVID hit when because I was doing it part-time and I was really just helping out, you know, on Saturdays or during the week when I had the flexibility because uh you know I could could get out of the office. Um, when COVID hit, I was like, you know what? I think it's time for me to pull the plug. And it's funny because I can still remember the conversation sitting right here in this office. Said to my wife, I think this is what I'm gonna do. And she said, if you're having a midlife crazy midlife crisis, would you just go buy a Corvette? And I said, I I don't think that's it. Like, I really think I can do this. And I told her, I said, look, if if it doesn't work out, or if I suck, or if I can't like entertain people, I don't get along, whatever, I'll pull the plug and go get a job. Um, and you know, here we are, five and a half years later. Um, you know, and and like I say all the time, especially with my guys that work for me, I tell them I know it's hard. Like what we do is is not easy sometimes. It is hard, but it's still better than a real job. Every day that we do this is better than a real job. Um, and we joke about that, especially when we're you know, if we're like out dealing with some mud and and you know, just terrible environment and bad conditions or pouring down rain, we're like, yep, yep, still better than a real job. Sometimes I question that, but uh, but yeah, that that was my aha moment was COVID when COVID hit and my business was starting to change. Fortunately, I was in e-commerce, so it didn't it didn't change for the for the bad, uh I didn't have to travel because I couldn't travel. And that was when I was like, you know what? I think I wanna, I wanna it, I call it retire, but I was 50, so I wasn't really retiring. But uh, but yeah, that was that was really my aha moment when I was like, I'm gonna make this happen because I love doing it. I love I love sitting in the blind with people and and the camaraderie and breaking out my stove and telling stories and teaching people what scrapple is, right? Stuff like that. Um, but but yeah, that that was my aha moment.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Awesome. Last but not least, what about you, Matt?

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Yeah, uh look, I like I said, I've been fortunate enough to where my dad hunted his ass off. He's he's from the Midwest. Um and I've been hunting since I was you know a little boy, and uh I think I knew what I wanted to do, uh, really starting probably early part of high school, where I knew I wanted to run a waterfowl outfitter in some uh former fashion, right? And and the problem is I I think with social media and everything else today, uh, it's pretty easy to see something and think that it's one way when in reality it's very different, right? And I I've had a very singular focus for a long time, which is making you know, Maverick outfitters as as strong as I can and giving people a really great experience, uh, predominantly chasing puddle ducks, right? And that's that's what I fell in love with. For me, I can sit in a blind all day and not pick up a gun and just call a ducks and and um you know really watch them work. And and I wanted to find a way to you know make a living doing that. And and I say that lightly, I'm not gonna you know lie to you here. I I'm I consider myself to be incredibly lucky. Uh, I have a full-time job. And with my full-time job, I'm fortunate enough to where I guide every single day of the season. Um, so September 1st, starting early goose through January 31st, I guide every day. Uh, I have a hell of a team uh that works with me, guys who some guys from the shore, some guy or some guys from the eastern shore, some guys from the western shore, um, who have flexibility enough to hunt or guide three or four days a week as well. Um, and we take a ton of pride in what we do. And so I look, I don't know if I ever had an aha moment, if it was more of something that I knew I was wanting to do. So it's really figuring out how to structure my life around it, um, you know, enough to where, and I'm sure Jeff and Dave can talk to this as well. I think your first couple of years running a hunting outfitter, it's not like everything's rosy and green. You're not just watching cash pour in. There's a lot of fixed expenses, and in terms of running a puddle dock and cannon use outfitter, whether it's decoys, blinds, leases, whatever you can think of. So you got to find a way to make it work. Um, and luckily enough for me, again, I I feel like I had a golden horseshoe up my ass when I got the job that I did because it allows me to hunt um, like I said, every single day. And and for me, you know, in terms of the aha moment, man, it's just putting people on birds and and watching their faces light up. So whether it's a guy who's working in an office again, a nine to five, who gets to hunt four times a year and he chooses to spend those four days with me, that means a lot, right? Most of our business is repeat. Uh, most of our guys are guys who've been hunting with me for a long time, and uh again, we we take a ton of pride in what we do, and and I'm I feel really grateful to be able to do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

Awesome. Any last-minute shout-outs, thoughts? You guys hunter? I got a question for you, buddy. What's up?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

What was what was your aha moment to want to do a podcast? Yeah, like I said, you know, it's not easy, right? It's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

No, yeah, it is. It is a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

I've played with the idea, and I'm like, I just can't. There's not enough hours in the day. So so what was your aha moment? What made you decide you wanted to be doing this?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

My aha moment was uh so I started the um media page on Instagram or TikTok at first, posting some videos and posting a couple uh splice spliced together clips on YouTube of like stuff that I would do while I'm out there hunting, whether it be deer, ducks, turkeys, what have you. But um, it kind of got to the point where both were growing. I was like, okay, they're growing a lot more than I thought they would. So what's next? And then ironically, I ended up meeting up with a couple guys from uh Jersey on a hunt down in uh Lower Dell where Barbara Hobeth, Jeff You know, and the Marsh Boys. Yes, uh oh yeah, I was talking to them, and I'll and I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, I do this, and you know, it's a media thing, and I'm just trying to like figure out what's next. And then they told me they did a podcast, so I was like, Oh, I never met a guy that's done like an outdoors podcast around here. Like, I didn't ever think that I never really would have thought that like, oh, guys like around here do that kind of stuff. So I was like, hmm. And I kicked the idea around for a little bit, and then I ended up being on a podcast with a guy down in Georgia and talking with him for a little bit, and I was and I it was ironic because my wife at the time was like, you know, I was sitting here watching you while you were like on the podcast and you were getting interviewed and stuff, and she was like, You have a personality, you could definitely do that. And then next thing I know, I'm hitting up Brian or Ryan. I'm like, hey, what how do you how do you guys do it? What goes into it? And then I just kind of started with hitting guys up, and one thing led to another, and now here I am. Cool, good for you, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Cool too. Like I said, I know it's a lot of work. Oh, yeah, it's a lot of work, especially you know, I think you got a young one at home, and yeah, obviously, you want to get out and hunt as well. So between hunting, being dad and a husband, and there's a lot going on, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Oh, yeah, and plus I also like in getting it to enjoy like talk, like talking to you guys tonight, talking to all kinds of different people that hunt all kinds of different things, fish for all kinds of different things, and I just like showing how wide of a net the outdoors community has on people and highlighting it. Because I mean, I I don't know if you how much you guys keep up with the show, but I've done everything from turkey, waterfowl, deer, big game all over the world to having uh people that hunt pythons in Florida on, people that go diving and spear fishing on like we had a whole bunch of fly guys on at one point, so it's like I just like spreading that as far as I can cast it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

It's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

Very cool, very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Yeah. What do you guys have any other final thoughts for tonight?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

I mean, to Dave's point, just thank you for doing this. I mean, it's it's uh it's great to get to sit down and talk with guys. It's I don't think uh whole lot of outfitters uh in Maryland and and for that record across the country probably spent a lot of time talking to each other. Um you know, getting to meet Jeff was pretty cool and and hearing Dave's story, and and um, you know, it's it's always interesting getting to hear a wide variety of opinions, uh, and it's always nice when people aren't upset, right? When somebody's saying something's different from what they're they're thinking. And uh it's it's special you've been able to provide an environment to do that, and and hopefully we can all do this a little more.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

Yeah, no, good stuff. It was it's enjoyable, and and like Matt just said, it's always nice just to talk duck hunting, hunting in general, especially with with other people that do it the way we do it. Like this is this is you know our thing, and uh, you know, it's it's it's not like we're talking to recreational hunters, like this is this is how we we make our money, and um, and it's always nice to to get that take uh from others and and kind of learn. Like it there's and that's one of the things I've always said you gotta learn every day. You gotta learn something new about your business and how you're going to approach the business and how you're gonna change it, how you're gonna make it better. You can't do the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

thing over and over again um you know and i'll i'll say kudos to jeff and and i've known jeff a long time but jeff he mastered social media before we even knew what the hell social media was all about and and and you know and that's why you know matt you were talking about his his you know his repeat customers and the fact that he's booking you know 90 or whatever the number was yeah everybody knows jeff right and it's because he did a great job years ago building up that social media and i think that's one of the things that that as an outfitter as as uh as a guide those are the things that sometimes we don't even think about because we just we're focused on how do we harvest more birds you know do i need to move this blind what do i gotta do here i got the wind going this way the tides doing this you know meanwhile i know when jeff was building his his new home the dude was going i don't know where you're going jeff but you were in the truck somewhere trying to get wifi so you could upload something on youtube like every morning right guys guys don't do that but but that's why everyone knows who jeff is and everybody wants to hunt with jeff and i think you know that's that's something new and that that's no it's it's it's it's incredible and and and matt you're doing a good job by using um derek right isn't that his name derek yep yeah phenomenal videographer and photography and i've talked with derek before derek is very very good yeah and and you need somebody like that right yeah yeah i can't do unfortunately i'm not very talented with a camera and and what i mean by not talented i mean it's bad um huge part of our business i mean look it's i don't want to i don't want to pump jeff's tires too much here um but when you think of c ducks you think of jeff coates right that's that's a hell of a marketing um that's a it's a it's it speaks to not only marketing but it speaks speaks to successful hunts too right it's it's an incredible way to run a business and and anybody who's in in our line of work you know obviously look the hunts come first but you have to be able to market your business right and and we're to we haven't talked about something that's that's the hardest thing to do uh which I'm not great at uh which is putting yourself in front of the camera right and that's that's hard to do um and I I think Jeff obviously does a great job with that and and um you know he's paved the way for a lot of outfitters right you look at a lot of guys with these absurd follower accounts and uh you know whatever else and start with him so yeah like I said earlier I meant it when I said this um most of us and and I don't know maybe Jeff and Dave you guys have had different experiences but most outfitters don't talk to each other especially if they're operating the same state right so I mean you might know each other and say hello and you're not gonna be rude but you know you're not usually sitting down for a podcast so for me this was pretty great to be able to talk to two guys who you know have been doing it a while and and especially with Jeff um so I honor I appreciate it man it was it was it was nice it was a nice way to spend an evening oh yeah for sure Jeff yeah I thank all very kind words thank you thank you and again I have to roll it back to Donald Hughes back in 1996 he said I knew what I I didn't really know a hundred percent what the internet was but he said this is the internet this is what you do this is how you're gonna promote yourself but at the same time this double edged sword when you promote yourself you're gonna have other people that want to do exactly what you do so he's like you just got to stay ahead of the curve and um again like right from right from the get go way back in the day which I truly didn't you know I didn't understand what the internet was like he taught me what it was uh he passed away in 2004 and um but you know he he taught me a lot of information um a lot of knowledge and um you know I think about him I if I said daily I might be exaggerating but I mean I pretty much think of of the man daily so that's really awesome hard to find a mentor like that yep yep and he was right everything he told you was right because it it really has uh made a huge difference and and honestly jeff you kind of you set you set the stage for us because we're we're watching you and saying okay now how do we how do we create something like that how am I gonna do that without looking like Jeff coach did it right out so I've got and and if you want uh hunter if you want to wrap up you can uh but I've got to I gotta tell Jeff a quick funny story so I don't know if you want to wrap this up or not you can so so Jeff I got a buddy that that uh owns a coffee roasting company and uh you know he's hunted with me for years and we've been buddies for a long time and I was watching some of his social media stuff that he was doing and at the end of his videos he didn't say thinking of you but he said something along those lines and then took his cell phone and like you know tapped on it like whatever it is that you do right and I busted out laughing and I called him and I said let me ask you something I said Eddie do you know who Jeff Coates is and he busted out laughing he goes God please tell me he's not mad at me I said I don't think he's watching your videos but funny that you picked up on that and that but that again that's the influence that uh some of that social media stuff that you've done Jeff that uh I mean you know Eddie's not even working in our industry he's in the the coffee business but he's doing very similar stuff and I think that uh like I said Matt that's all the stuff we got to figure out how do we do it how do we make it better because man I think you got to get in front of the camera uh yeah you do I think Derek Derek's yelling at me uh day in and day out and I'm just I I need to be more amenable.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:48

Um but Jeff does a great job of storytelling too right that's a piece of it yeah that's a big part of it right man I feel bad for Derek because the quality of the stuff he gets is pretty incredible and and I need to do my parts here you're a hundred percent right yeah cool all right tonight guys thank you all for coming on and I definitely have to uh hit you all up in the far near future to get out in the field with you guys like I keep saying it's just lots going on right now but we'll get there eventually hear you buddy hear you hey Matt I'm gonna reach out to you buddy so we'll uh we'll hook up yeah good seeing you my friend say hello to Karen for me Jeff is frozen no there we go oh there we go it did thank you I I will do that yeah like yeah I had good I had good internet out here this morning but it seems uh it it is frozen up on me a little bit yeah it's snagged on you a couple times that's all right yeah that's good no worries thank you guys again for sparing some time tonight and thank you all again for tuning in to another episode of the Blue Hen Outdoors Podcast thanks guys thank you you can do it