58: When Having Kids Leads To Career Trade-offs | Women and Work

After becoming a mom, Amy Jackson realized that the career path she once said “yes” to so easily suddenly came with impossible tradeoffs.

From painful work trips and mom guilt to constantly changing childcare plans, Amy shares how motherhood reshaped the way she approached ambition, leadership, and success. Instead of walking away from her career, she built a fully remote, family-friendly PR agency that allows women to thrive at work without sacrificing their families.

In this episode, Amy opens up about:
• The emotional toll of work travel as a mom 
• Why flexibility mattered more than climbing the corporate ladder 
• How she transitioned from executive leadership to entrepreneurship 
• The burnout that came with scaling a business 
• Why community, mentors, and support systems matter so much for working moms 

Amy’s story is a reminder that success doesn’t have to look the same in every season of life.

What’s one sacrifice or adjustment motherhood has made you rethink in your career?

Struggling to find the right child care? Get a video interview of your ideal nanny at https://www.momsub.com/child-care-options

If you want your innovative company to be featured in major media, check out https://www.talesplash.com/.

#WomenAndWork #WorkingMoms #WomenInBusiness #Entrepreneurship #MomLife

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I feel like travel is something that I like used to do a lot before kids and then as I had kids it just got more complex and therefore limiting in certain ways and it's one of the reasons there are a lot of reasons I started my own PR agency, but it was one of the reasons where I like wanted to go on trips where it was like an off-site with your team, but I had to say no because I had babies at home and it was too hard and it was painful. And even when I did travel, and I do travel periodically here and there for work, it is always painful.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Welcome to Women and Work, the show where we take an inside look at how women are overcoming our own unique challenges as we grow our careers or build a business while nurturing relationships and family. I'm Diane Mocha, founder and CEO of MomSub, the childcare app that connects you to a substitute mom. And I want you to know that work can fit your life. Each week we meet a woman who has done that. And today I'm with Amy Jackson. She is the founder and CEO of Tail Splash, a PR agency she built after transitioning from corporate leadership. She started in public relations more than two decades ago, working for big name firms, moving around and moving up to senior director level and eventually head of brand. All right, thanks for being here, Amy. Thank you for having me. I love that intro. Terrific. Well, I see that you created a fully remote, family-friendly team because you understand the importance of that as a woman, like I do, like our listeners do, like my guests do. And with PR being dominated by women, I wonder if you encountered bosses who also understood that, or maybe some who didn't. So I want to know to start with, what do you think has been the biggest challenge in your career, specifically because you are a woman?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Oh, that is a big question. Okay, so I think the biggest challenge is honestly travel. I feel like travel is something that I like used to do a lot before kids. And then as I had kids, it just got more complex and therefore limiting in certain ways. And it's one of the reasons. There are a lot of reasons I started my own PR agency, but it was one of the reasons where I like wanted to go on trips where it was like an off-site with your team, but I had to say no because I had babies at home and it was too hard. And it was painful. And even when I did travel, and I do travel periodically here and there for work, it is always painful. Like I have a very sweet eight-year-old, and every time I leave, it's hard for him. And I know he's okay. And like you said, there's substitute moms. He's got dad. Like he's got he's in great hands. But it's still painful and therefore limiting. And I look forward to the day when, you know, my kids are more interested in their, you know, social lives than me being home. I know it's like I say that and I'm like, well, I'm sure that's not true. I'm gonna be really sad when that happens. But I look forward to that unlocking travel for me again in a way that I used to love to travel. And, you know, I we still travel a lot as a family, but it's different. It's one of the things that I do feel is limiting as a woman.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

And I always used to tell my husband, our kids are grown, and I would say, This will pass. You're gonna yearn for this in the future, you know. I mean, 20 years sounds like a long time, but you know, those years go fast even though the days are long, right? Yeah. Now you said that your eight-year-old really misses you. I wonder if some of that, you know, pain is a little projection. Do you feel that as well when you're gone? You're like, yeah, especially my youngest. And you know, they pick up on our cues so much, right? Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

My 10-year-old is fine. He's like good to go without me. But my eight-year-old, I'm sure he he feels that, you know, like there's that day before you leave on a trip where like no matter how much prep you've done, whether you've packed or not, like no matter what, there's a level of anxiety that I feel the day before I leave for a trip. And I do notice myself like falling into some something that will kind of absorb that anxiety. And I'm sure he picks up on that. And, you know, there have been situations where like we make it as fun for him as possible, like grandma's coming, Nana's gonna be here. Like, like, like there's a win-win situation. Um, but you're right, even when I do leave, I still feel that tug when I'm on my way to the airport, you know, and and then once I'm there, I'm usually fine. But there is that moment where you're like by yourself, like in the Uber, and you're like, what am I doing? And I know so many moms relate to that feeling where you're like, What am I doing? But then you get there and you're like, it's worth it. It's worth it. There's nothing better than being in person. We've had, you know, clients we've worked with remotely for years that you know, when you finally get the opportunity to be together in person, it's the best. But it does require getting over that initial anxiety and that initial like feeling of questioning of your life's choices.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Well, and you you've got so many more things to check and think, did I cover everything besides just yourself when you leave? Right. You know, you're already thinking about your client and all your work stuff, but then you're like, Did I, you know, did I sign that permission slip? You know, my husband will never be able to find it, you know, or whatever it, whatever it is. And and the mom guilt. I've I've really not ever met a mom that said she didn't feel some pangs of guilt at some point, you know, that's a working mom, you know, that's that's a way. And so how did that influence your career? Tell me about Amy before kids in your career and Amy after kids. Were there some conscious choices that you made? Did you know, did you move to a different company, you know, take a step back in terms of role, or did things sort of happen gradually as you realized maybe I need to make a change? What, you know, tell us so we understand your journey.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah. Oh, I love this question because now I'm like going back in time to when I used to say yes to every opportunity, every promotion, every trip. I like sought out opportunities. Like I was a yes person, like in the early days of my career. And I do believe that that established me really well, especially when I was in a corporate role. Like I had so many doors open to me because I was up for the challenge. I was up for opportunities that were maybe a stretch for me. And so that set a really good foundation to the point where when I did start a family, I was able to kind of negotiate so that I could be remote, which was really nice. Um, I would take the train from Sacramento to San Francisco when I needed to be in the office. But my company was really supportive of me having a remote situation so that I could be present with very young kids at the time. Um, and they were also supportive when I said, you know, I just had my second kid. Um, we learned that at about one year old that he had multiple food allergies. And so travel just was not in the cards for us at that stage of our life. And they were very supportive of me really limiting my travel to like an occasional trip here and there. So I do credit, you know, the managers that I had at the time that really went to bat for me. Um, and so I I made this modification of like being this say yes to every opportunity, like maximize your, you know, your your time um in your career in the early days. And then I started to modify things. And it just got to a point where I was interviewing moms about their corporate roles, about their startups, and I was writing about them on a blog. And I just like got more and more confident, like I could do this, I could start my own thing. And then when there was like a natural transition in my corporate role as a result of like kind of teams moving around as they do, um, I thought, you know, I think I can do this. I think I can build a company while having young kids. And I had the support system in place that I could do that. Um, but then I also had moments and seasons where I had to kind of modify the amount of hours I had to work in a given day. And that's still happening because now my kids are at the age where they play sports after school. And so, you know, it went from like preschool hours to um, you know, elementary school hours to now we have sports in the afternoon. So like I'm still modifying my work hours, but I do feel fortunate that we're in a time where you can do a lot on your phone, you can do a lot in your car, you can do a lot with AI, you can do like there's so many things that have gotten easier that weren't available when I was first contemplating having kids. Um, and I I do feel like that, you know, things really have become easier for working moms in the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Yes. Although we know it is still very difficult. Still lots of obstacles. But take advantage of the resources out there. Before we jump into this journey of starting your own company, I want to unpack some of the things you talked about. You talked about the flexibility in your workplace. And I wonder if you think that that was a direct reflection of going into an industry dominated by women, where a lot of the bosses, people making the decisions, people that you were working with to make these adjustments for remote or whatever, were women. If you think that had an influence, and if women are worried about that, that they consider that before they decide on the field they go into.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

So at that point in my career, I was in a I was working for a large tech company, so it wasn't female dominated. I did have managers like that were, I would say, a mix of men and women. And I think the biggest thing that helped in my case is that I had worked there for four years by the time I had my first child. And so I had a track record of like being a go-getter, being really like self-motivated, being really driven. So they had faith in me that I could do it from anywhere. And I think that's that was key for me to have the ability to have a flexible kind of remote work arrangement. Um, it was less, you know, if it was because it was, you know, it's certainly like it helps when people are parents too and they get it, um, that are managers, but um, it was because I had a track record of of you know performing. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

And I think that's kind of the lean-in theory. I don't know how familiar you are with Cheryl Sandberg and the boy.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

I was gonna bring up the book because I read the book before I had kids. I read it. Oh, you did. I did. I like was like, what do I do? Okay, tell me what to do. And so I did read her book.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

The time to read the book. I mean, uh, if you know, my interpretation, and I read it when it first came out a while ago. I remember when she, you know, sort of exploded in the zeitgeist after the TED talk and everything. And she wanted women to really grasp this when they were young and before they had kids, you know, before they were even maybe married and ready to have kids. And her idea is, you know, work, really put in that extra time and effort and be that go-to person so that you have the ability to be flexible because you have more power. And I love her story when she talked about, you know, showing up to a meeting, you know, out to here pregnant and and not finding a parking space. And she was running late because she had been, you know, throwing up from morning sickness and, you know, she's leaking and, you know, whatever else is going on. And and then she realizes there should be parking for expectant mothers. And she marches into Mark Zuckerberg's office and says, you know, we need expectant mother parking. And he's like, Okay. Yeah. Well, why don't we have it? I never thought of that. Like, I guess I never did either. Yeah. And she's like, You have the power, just do it. So that's the point, the power. We need the power. Or, you know, or and we need people in those positions of power who understand, but they're gonna take us more seriously, like you said, when we show we are the go-to person. But there's a lot of pushback of young among young people nowadays, because, you know, there's this whole idea of, you know, I don't want to wait until I have a family to have work-life balance. Like, I want to protect my boundaries and my mental health now. And, you know, why do we as women have to do that? And but I do think it's a good lesson to understand, you know, it's all about sacrifices and choices. So you made this choice, maybe not even knowing you were doing it, but that was your A-type personality, right? I'm gonna be the go-to person. I love what I do. Why wouldn't I just do it all and do it at the best I can, you know? And then it it set the groundwork for you to be able to control your destiny as a parent when things started changing and you weren't that go-to person. So I wonder if that was hard for you to adapt to, because I know I had trouble with like letting go of the whole perfectionism. And oh my gosh, I can't even do my career the way I want to anymore and the way I used to. So, how did you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the reasons I started a blog because writing for me was like therapy, because it was like really difficult to adjust to, you know, not being able to say yes. And even when I did say yes, how hard it was. Like I wrote about my first business trip after I had my 10-year-old. He um luckily I had my mom and my mother-in-law like nearby. So my mom actually like came on business trips with me a couple of times, which was really awesome. But the first time, it's like a fun memory, but the first time I traveled without him, I was like, I had my pump with me and I had to leave the like convention center where we were having like a sales off site or something, and I had to leave and go pump and come back. And even just having to leave and come back was so uncomfortable for me because I was like, I'm missing things. People are gonna wonder why I'm late. I keep seeing it, keeps like appearing that I'm late to everything because I was pumping and like I just felt so out of like sorts, and then you know, having to figure out like how to keep the the like breast milk refrigerated, like there were so many logistics where I'm gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

And through security.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yes. I was just like, is this even worth it? And I think I was gone for like like 30 hours or something. And so it was like very traumatic. But I think you know, things get easier and it's you know, even though there's still the emotional um adjustment to being away from your kids at at any age, really. I do think some of the logistics get easier with your body, you know, you're you're not having to deal with pumping forever. So things like that, you know. I learned kind of how how to get through, um, you know, just by giving it time and having other parents I worked with like give me like very comforting advice. Like, you know, it's it's hard at different stages for different reasons, and you don't have to fix it today for the rest of your life. Like that was one of the best tips I got from another mom was don't worry so much about like solving for childcare like forever. You're gonna change your childcare arrangement over and over again. Sure enough, I did. Like we had all different kinds of childcare arrangements, and so you don't have to like like make a decision when you have a newborn about what their whole childhood is gonna look like because you're gonna change throughout the process.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

I want to hear about that, you know, because that's an area I'm very interested in, obviously. Did you think that you had a plan when your first one came along? This is gonna be childcare, I found this daycare, it's gonna be the whole time, and then they'll go to school, and then this will happen, and Nana will be here. You know, what was the plan? Why did it have to evolve? How did it evolve? And how much did you have to go through uh in terms of stress to put the pieces of the puzzle together in ways that maybe you didn't anticipate?

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, that was a wild time. I was the type A mom who, like while I was on Mat Leave, I was visiting different daycares and um I found a really great first childcare setup, but it was like not very close to my house. But I really loved this like Montessori school, and I really loved the woman that was like in the infant room, and I felt very comfortable taking my four-month-old there. So I, with a four-month-old, was like, okay, I'm going right back to work. Um, I'm working from home, but he's gonna go to daycare, it's gonna be great. And what changed was like as he became more mobile, that wasn't the best environment for him. And so we had to change daycare to a better setup for a, you know, more mobile baby. And it was very far from our house, but it was near my mom's house. So there was a phase where I would drive all the way to my mom's house 30 minutes away, take him to the daycare that we liked for that stage of his um his life, and then go work at my mom's house. And then like she might go pick him up and bring him back to her house, and then I'd drive back home. So it was like this crazy commute, like just for a daycare that we liked better than the original place. So that was like another six months, probably or more.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Oh, and it only lasted six months?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yeah, because then we moved to go to a bigger house. Like we were we were in like a cool, like urban neighborhood, and then as soon as he turned one, it was like not working anymore. And so we moved to the burbs. We never thought we would move to the burbs, we never thought we would get a minivan. That happened too. Um, so like life just changes, and you just don't know like what you're gonna want in each situation for your child or for your family. And so we ended up changing like childcare, like probably like three or four times in his first like two years of life. Before you even had the second. Oh, yeah. And then luckily with the second, we happened to have somebody that was coming over to our house to do chores for a couple hours a day, like a part-time gig. And she was interested, like she was also working for another family. And then right when I was about to have my second baby, she stopped working for the other family. And so I was like in the middle of trying to figure out what we were gonna do, and she's like, I'm available. So it just worked out that she was available to nanny after I wrapped up Matt Leave the second time, and she has been part of our extended family ever since. So she, yeah, so she really was the nanny for the boys up until last year. Full time until they went to school, not full time. So when the boys went to school, she wasn't full-time anymore, but like she got us through all those transitions, like through preschool and the beginning part of preschool.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

She started full-time when I'm available. She's like, I can do this full time.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, when he was a little bitty baby, she was full-time. And then as he went to preschool and then elementary school, you know, she kind of cut back her her hours, but she still comes and stays with the boys when we travel, like my husband and I travel. So it's fun to have her as part of the family.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

You hit the lottery. We hit the lottery, so you didn't have to make dozens of calls and screen all kinds of people, and this person was sort of fell in your lap. So there's a little lesson. You had someone that was helping around the house, you know, and you didn't hire them as a cleaning person, but they were more like a mother's helper. Like a mother's helper, like a household helper. Household helper. So that's a good on-ramp, you know. If you're thinking that you might even consider a nanny, try a household helper, a mother's helper, and then that person could eventually transition. And they weren't somebody going off to college or you didn't lose them.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

She had already raised her own kids.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Like she was Oh, that's what I had a grandma type. Oh my gosh. I had great, great experience with a grandma type who stayed with us for eight years because she was kind of semi-retired, wanted to kind of focus on one family when our hours and days changed, she could accommodate, you know. Oh, yes. And now so many people, you know, come to us and say, I want someone young that can keep up with the kids. And I'm like, you know, but you'd be surprised how much an older person who's gone through raising children can keep up. You know, we had a grandma type who would be out there kicking the soccer ball, you know, throwing the football, you know, pitching the baseball to the kids, you know. Yeah. And and she was very active with them. But, you know, you said something I wanted to ask about for our listeners. You know, you talked about how thing you you heard from others things would get easier. And then you made this decision you didn't expect to move to the suburbs to get a minivan. Was a lot of the That because you recognized it did make life easier. Was there a part of you that like was almost like stubborn, like, no, we wanted to stay in the city. I want to be in this environment. Did it take a little longer than you think it should have? And what would you say to people that are conflicted and they're like, yeah, I see the value of making life easier, but I don't know if I want to compromise on like this life that I love, you know, this urban life that I love, this non-traditional family life.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah, I think you just make trade-offs. Like there is something to be said for, you know, if you have family that you can live near, like for those early years, especially when they're really little, like that can be really helpful. Um, and so if that means, you know, moving out of a big city that you love, it might be worth it because it's gonna make it easier when you want to go on a date night or you want to go on a trip or you want to, you know, just get a little help, you know, an extra set of hands. If you like, you know, something happens and you aren't, you know, able to take care of your kids, like having an extra set of hands is worth, you know, leaving a situation that, you know, maybe, maybe you love it, but it's a struggle to not have the help you need. And so that's one thing, you know, I would say is, you know, it's it is fun. I love a big city, but it is it is hard to raise kids, you know, it takes a lot. And I have friends that live in New York with kids and you know, live in LA with kids and um and other cities. And it just it takes more, like you have to logistically plan for getting across town, you know, in rush hour and things like that. So you can do it, it's just gonna be harder. And so we just chose a path of you know less resistance that allowed us to be close to family, um, have a little more space. And it was amazing going from, you know, a smaller house with one kid to a bigger house with two kids and then outgrowing that. Like it's just you don't realize how full a house will feel as your kids are running around and running into things all the time. So you kind of start to outgrow, you know, the size of you know, urban living pretty fast with two boys, at least in my case.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

So and it's so hard as it is, anyways. Like you said, if you can make your life easier, you know, to sacrifice some things that may not be as important as they once were, it could be a huge game changer. And I will tell you the side benefit, your kids bond with their grandparents in ways you might never have expected. And it's can gonna be meaningful potentially for their whole life. I mean, my son, you know, spent years, you know, once he got older, golfing with grandpa, bowling with grandpa. And now that grandpa needs a little help, my son's there to provide that extra help, you know, so it doesn't all fall on me as women. So it's a beautiful thing to watch your kids bond with your parents in a way that they have their own separate relationship, especially as they get older. I want to go back to something you said about the people that you started talking to in the workplace who were working moms who had kids older, who had already been through it. How important was it to have those mom mentors, to find them, to be able to talk to someone who could relate what you were going through? Did it just sort of happen organically? Did you make an effort? And what would you recommend to moms who are in that situation and maybe in you know a tech industry where there aren't a lot of them around? How do they find those mom mentors that can help them like they did for you?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah, I think it's just having like a different perspective on who in your company might be a good person to get to know. So when you're younger, you know, you're more interested in like making friends with your peers, I would say. As I became a manager, I stopped kind of having that goal of like, I need to be friends with everybody because the reality was I was managing people and you have to make tough decisions as a manager. And so there was um a little, a little different dynamic already in place. Um, and as I was entering more of that management role, I was becoming peers with women and men who had kids before I did. And so I like naturally got to know them and then they were there for me when I had my first kid. Um, but if you don't have that in your workplace, there are so many wonderful organizations now and memberships that you can join that you can find those mentors. So it's become, I feel like, easier to find other moms virtually or in the city that you live so that you can learn from them. Because even like, you know, if you find women in the same industry as you or that are also building businesses or um are at school, you know, what regardless of how you find each other, you will be able to learn from, you know, each stage of you know, childhood that they're in or that you're in, and you will each have different ways of doing things. Like I have been lucky to find a group of moms that are my closest friends here in Austin, where I live now. And we are constantly giving each other like tips and tricks and asking for, you know, who do you know that does this or where can I get this done? Or how do I do like I'm starting baseball for the first time? What do what like just every little thing that we go through as parents, we are helping each other through it. And, you know, it's just funny to me, like when I look back at, you know, reading books like Lean In and like, you know, looking at them as like a guide, like, how is it gonna work? And then now we're all in all these like group chats with each other, like things have just gotten like so much easier in terms of communication and visibility with other moms than you know, than it was the case for me. And I can only imagine how much harder it was, you know, a decade before that.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Although you want to be careful that you're not, you know, there's so many of these groups, but sometimes you put a post out and then you start getting all this judgment, you know, and then that makes you feel bad. So establish some good one-on-ones because, you know, usually a one-on-one, someone's not gonna be like, Why are you doing that with your kids? You know, they'll be like, okay, that's not how I did it. Let me explain, you know. But you you're not gonna get that. Sometimes there's a lot of judgment online if you're sort of posting and just anonymous to give you feedback. Yeah, establish those those good relationships. So I want to talk about this transition that you made. You know, you were a very high-powered executive, right? And you worked a long time to get to that point. And you you, you know, started thinking about like I could do this on my own, but it's just a whole different world, right? It's just a whole different dynamic and just your the way your day even looks is different. And so, you know, what were all the considerations that you that you went through? Are you the kind of person that like you made the decision and then you just followed through with it? Or was there like a lot of angst and like, you know, making lists and advantages and disadvantages and took years to come to this conclusion? You know, how did you get to that point and and what kinds of things did you have to have in place to know that this is gonna feel right for me, you know, financially, emotionally, you know, physically?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah, I think a big part of it is like making sure that you're um in a place with your partner that this is a good decision for your family. And that was the case with my husband because he was in a place with his company where it felt like stable enough for me to be the one to try entrepreneurship for the first time. So it that was really the most important step was like that we kind of came to this decision together. And then, you know, from there on out, it was, you know, figuring out the right time to step away from my corporate job to take this leap. And one of those moments was meeting my first client. So a good friend of mine now who lived in our neighborhood, we were at a mom's meetup and she had just launched her jewelry business. I'm actually wearing her necklace. Um, it's love tela. And um I met Tala and she was looking for PR help. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. I'm about to start a PR agency. And so we met and we talked about it, and it was like, let's do this. And so that was the trigger for me to like actually give notice and leave my job and start my PR agency officially, was because I met her and she wanted, you know, to be my first client. And it's been a really fun journey to where we are now as best friends and fellow entrepreneurs and moms, and we share a lot in common. And so um, it's it's a fun example of like you never know who you're gonna meet along the journey, you know, that might propel the journey and what that might become. And so it's it's one of the reasons I took the leap. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

And so, what were some of the challenges that you confronted that you didn't anticipate?

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Oh, so there's a lot. Yeah. And that's the thing that Tel and I talked about.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Like, you seem like you got it all together. She might say, like, no, no, it was just smooth sailing, you know, she fell into her nanny, she fell into her first client. Like everything's been smooth sailing for Amy.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Those, I think that like those were definitely moments of luck, but luck is not enough to carry a business forward for five years. So I will I will preface that with, you know, that those that was an impetus to start my business, but I've gone through lots of chapters of the business. I would say the the probably the most natural, easiest chapter was the first six months because I was like, doors open and I had all these connections from my career. And those were many of my first clients after I met Tala. So business just started to kind of grow organically through word of mouth people I knew that were like, oh, well, you know, my company needs a PR agency. And it was just me. So I, you know, it that was a good thing and a bad thing. Because on one hand, um, there was a temporary period where I didn't have our nanny. And so I was only able to work, you know, when my kids didn't like need my attention and my focus. So, in some cases, when I first started the business, I had my youngest with me at a playground and I was on my phone, you know, responding to a reporter while he's playing on the playground. I'm like keeping an eye on him too. So it's like those, you know, those were the early days of the business, the reality of it. Um, but then as the demand grew, I was able to hire my first employee. And so then it was the two of us for a while. And I, my youngest started preschool right around that same time. So there were like little changes along the way that allowed me to dedicate more time to the business. And then as we, you know, started to grow, um, I think I entered one of the most challenging chapters of the business, which is scaling, because I thought, oh, you know, we can work with this company that will send us, you know, these qualified leads that our companies looking for a peer agency. And we'll take those and then we'll find the right person to work with them on the team and and we'll just keep doing that. Well, it wasn't it wasn't that simple, you know. That was my first time doing sales. And so I had to learn like how much burnout can happen when you're taking sales calls all the time and then following up with a proposal. And I was doing the most lean version of a sales process at that point in time because I was taking so many of these leads that I was just like talking to them for 30 minutes and then sending them a proposal, talking to them for 30 minutes, sending, and like I had weeks where I would get to Friday and I was like, what just happened? Like that was a total blur. And I was still servicing clients too. So I was doing client work, I was on calls with clients, and I was taking all these sales calls and sending out all these proposals. So I was in burnout mode like pretty fast. And I luckily kind of felt an inkling that that was happening because of how I felt on Friday night and even Saturday morning, where I kind of had this hangover of like adrenaline. And I was fortunate that I met somebody who had started um a community for moms called Hey Mama. And she was starting to go like go into a coaching practice where she was working with women like me that were like needing a little more balance in their life. Um, and so that started to open up my eyes to like, okay, don't just like drink from the fire hose when it comes to growing the business. Um, and so I started to like make adjustments in how I was trying to grow and at what pace. Um, but then along the way, even with that kind of recalibration of things, um, there was still this push and pull of like, you know, having people on payroll and like juggling, you know, bringing in new clients and and natural retention with clients and how to, you know, basically find the right balance between the team that I was um, you know, had available um time to give to clients and like bringing clients in the door and like what that looked like. So at a certain point, I realized I needed like financial like guidance because being in PR my whole career, I had never really learned, you know, in detail like how to manage a P ⁇ L. I tried to kind of scratch the surface. But as a business owner, it's like a very real thing when it when you're juggling like employees and contractors and cash flow and um clients at different, you know, um kind of budgets. And so it was a lot for just me to like to figure that out. And so I brought somebody on in like a fractional role to help. And that was another like very helpful decision that I made because I recognized that I was struggling to like work out that puzzle of um of the you know, profitability, really is what it was. And so um that was another like critical moment where I needed to not just focus on growth, but I needed to really think about profitability.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

And you had years of experience as a manager knowing the value of delegating. There's so many women that I talk to that it it's difficult for them to delegate if they haven't been a manager or even to translate those skills, you know, in their personal life, right? We say that you can buy your village, it's okay, you know, you you need help. And if you've got the resources, use them to make your life easier. So you recognize this isn't my skill set. I can bring this person on. I don't have to hire a full-time, you know, fractionals are great, but I can still have a top-notch person and I can delegate that, you know. And so I also want to talk about this idea of a coach that you mentioned, because there's so many of them out there now. There's so many different variations of consultants and coaches. And did you make a conscious decision like I'm gonna find someone to help me guide this? Were people coming to you and then one just sort of connected with you? And at the time, was it a cost that was significant? And was the business covering the cost or what, you know, was the business making enough money to justify it, or did you feel like it was an investment you needed to get to the next level? What would you tell people who are considering this and wondering if it's the right move?

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah, I mean, there are all kinds of coaches out there. I had another situation that'll make you laugh because it's similar to the other ones where like I just happened to run into the founder of Hey Mama, Katia Liban, and we had lunch during South by Southwest, which is just one of those really fun events where you, you know, all these people come to Austin that you know you get to reconnect with. And we were having lunch and I was learning about her coaching. And it was it the first kind of iteration of it was a mastermind of like a group of other women that are building businesses. And what she was describing, I was seeing in myself, I was like, I need this. Like, so she just happened to be like sharing with me what she was doing, and I recognized that that would be a beneficial thing for me to invest in. And I was in a position with the business where I could make that investment. And really with the business, I made a lot of investments in different organizations and memberships too. And I've since learned to kind of streamline those because it grew and grew and grew where I was part a member of so many different groups and I was really stretched thin. And so I've gotten more intentional, intentional about where I invest my time and you know what memberships are a good fit for us at Tail Splash at this juncture. But I still work with Katia. She's been part of our journey too.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Awesome. How did you determine that which ones were right? I mean, was it a matter of I'll invest the time and money, I'll go to their meetings or you know, participate and then I'll realize later like this isn't the right fit, you know? Because sometimes you can't really know by talking to one person, you know, going to the website, you know. Or did you just sort of go go all in on so many and then you just realize later, okay, these are the ones I can cut back on because I can see the difference when these are working. And would you recommend people kind of do that is try that cornucopia first before they just hone in on one?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yeah, I would say it's definitely a trial and error situation where in the early days I was like, sign me up for any like female founder organization. And then I learned like over time that that can mean a lot of different things. Like that can mean like very early stage, you know, businesses that aren't even launched yet and they're probably not in a good position to partner with a peer agency at that point in time, um, to, you know, situations where it was a really, you know, beautiful event, but I just didn't feel the connection in the room with the, you know, attendees of that event. And so I think you you don't really know until you try. Um, but the good thing is I feel like so many of these groups will let you, you know, just pay to attend their event before you're even a member. So if you have the chance to go and kind of feel the chemistry in the room, that's a good indicator of like, is this a good use of your time? And also, do they have a presence in your city? So a lot of the groups that I joined had a good concentration of members in Austin. And so that was why I joined or, you know, continued to be a member. Um, if they don't have a strong presence in Austin, you know, I just know that I'm gonna have a the a limited capacity to join, you know, virtual calls. That's just the reality of my schedule based on the fact that, you know, I want to be available to my team, but then I need to be available to my kids later in the day. So I just have a limited number of hours to join calls and things.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

So all part of the marketing and sales effort you're doing, like you said, to scale and do more with those leads. So as you were starting to get all of these leads, what did you do? Did you consciously make a decision about how you were gonna distinguish yourself? Because there's a lot of PR agencies out there. And everyone's different. And of course, you're Amy and you've got your own approach. But nowadays you need like this particular, you know, niche that you're gonna explain to people, you know, to make yourself stand out. And was that something that you did right in the beginning? And and then did it carry through, or did it have to pivot and change? And so, you know, what is the niche that you focus on and how has it evolved perhaps from when you first started?

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah, so the niche we focus on today are family-focused brands, brands that make life easier, healthier, safer. Um, but it's taken years to get to a point where we really have it clear. Um, because in the beginning, you know, because of my own experience, I kind of opened the doors to like, you know, we work with founders and help you tell your story. And that could be across tech or consumer, or, you know, eventually more in the health space is something that I really intentionally wanted to do. Um, and so over the years, like we, as we grew, I was saying yes to a lot of different types of clients just because we were new and the team was growing and we had people with relevant experience. So we would take a client, you know, even if they were in some, you know, very specific like B2B industry or tech industry. But over time, we've learned that you know, there are so many agencies out there that are like really well suited for like venture-backed tech startups. And there's really great agencies out there that are, you know, very specialized in like beauty, for example. And so where we were most passionate as a team of primarily moms, was you know, working with brands that were a little more established, were in a position to invest in a long term relationship with us because those are the most fruitful relationships. And, you know, the best um situations for us have been reflected. Referrals and people that we already know kind of coming to us or referring somebody to us. And so we stop paying for leads at a certain point. Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

So what's your sweet spot? You know, what what kind of you know, company in terms of size and, you know, and and what they do and and and what their needs are, you know, how would you describe the the kinds of companies that you help?

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yeah. So ideally there is a marketing team in place, and we are going to complement their marketing strategy with PR. So that's kind of the ideal scenario. Um, we still work with founders, but you know, there's a limit on how much time founders have to dedicate to PR. And if they're early stage, you know, they're kind of limited on their ability to invest in a long-term relationship. So the ideal scenario is there's a marketing team in place, could be the brand team, it could be a comms or PR team, and we are an extension of that team. And we're we're taking what they're already doing internally, and we're connecting the dots with journalists and podcasts. And so that's kind of the ideal arrangement. In terms of industry, you know, I mentioned kind of a broad description around like brands that make life easier, healthier, and safer. But really, where we're very passionate right now is we are all women in, you know, our 40s and heading into, you know, perimenopause, menopause, and just thinking about women's health as a whole is something that we are all personally passionate about. Um, and that could be like a really great CPG product, it could be a great like um apparel brand, it could be um more of like a service or a healthcare provider, but that's what we're very passionate about. And we feel like the women in our orbit are also very interested in learning about women's health topics that we should all be thinking about as we enter those perimenopause and menopause.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

Totally understand that and the need for that. And, you know, when you're working with marketing teams, a lot of those teams are gonna be handling the social media. Most people think of PR as handling the traditional media. You talked about journalists, you know, I spent 15 years as a television reporter myself. So I know how drastically the media landscape has changed and, you know, how there's fewer and fewer people, you know, watching the news, you know, consuming their information from traditional sources. So I wonder how you even justify to some of these companies, especially run by younger people who say, you know, PR and talk to journalists and like we don't need to do that. We can go directly to our customers, you know, and and you know, what's the selling point now? That's probably a lot different than it was certainly when you got into the industry.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Right. Yeah. I mean, if somebody doesn't inherently value traditional media, they're probably not the right fit for us to be honest, because you can absolutely go to town on social media and and you know do your own thing there. Um, the way we talk about it when people are deciding like how much to invest from my marketing budget into PR versus social versus influencers versus ads, you know, all the things, um, is you know, it's really about credibility and validation for what you are, you know, sharing on your social channels or sharing in your marketing emails. Like it's it's that, you know, trusted media outlet putting their stamp of approval on you. And so if people inherently agree with that, then it's less of a hard sell of like, is PR important? Um, and more of like, you know, what's the right investment to make? Um, but I think, you know, they work really well together. And so, you know, you mentioned the reach of traditional media kind of changing, but you put a traditional media clip on social media and it goes gangbusters. So, like, there's still value in that stamp of approval, that kind of inherent trust that comes with being featured by a more traditional media outlet. And when you share it on social or you share it in your other marketing channels over email, it's really effective.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

Do you think working with mission-driven type brands that traditional media has more impact because they're doing something that's beyond just, you know, we want to sell more, right? We want to change people's attitudes. We want to have an impact on society, right? We want to do something where even people who wouldn't be our buyers will have an awareness of an issue that that we want the whole world to know about. So, how does that influence what you do, the companies that you work with, and and what the the ROI is for them and the KPIs are for what they're trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Yeah, I think if there's an emotional connection to your product or your brand, that is gonna help get journalists interested too. So, you know, whatever that hook is, it's gonna help with those PR efforts. So they will be more effective, you know, more efficient, and you'll get better results at the end of the day. But it can also just be a really great product that consumers love. So we have clients where they have, you know, thousands upon thousands of really great reviews in places like Amazon or Walmart. And that alone is enough to convince journalists to try it themselves. And then when they try it themselves, they're like, oh, this is fantastic. And then they write this glowing review, and we didn't even need to like give them a lot of information, you know, other than, you know, this is available, here's what it's for, we would love for you to try it. Like they they come up with the most amazing headlines and you know descriptions of the benefits of the these products because in this case it's a product that really speaks for itself. So even if you're not like a you know very mission-driven founder or a mission-driven brand, but you've got a really great product that consumers love, that makes a great candidate for PR.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Amy, why have you devoted your entire career to this industry? Why does it matter to you?

SPEAKER_00 50:32

I still get excited every time a piece of coverage runs. I'm just like a kid that grew up reading magazines, like making collages with all my magazines. You know, I've always loved media. And I, along with my team, literally celebrate every piece of coverage when it comes through. So we just like nerd out on PR. We also have embraced new technologies too. Like we love podcasts because there is no better forum to go in depth on a topic and to really have a meaningful conversation. You know, you can cover so much more ground in a podcast than you can in an article or an interview, you know. So it's we do love embracing new technology as much as we love like old media. We're just like, we're just fans. And I've I've always known um or I've always been known as somebody that, you know, does PR or like I had a nickname all the way going back to college of PR Queen because I was the PR coordinator in student government, and a couple of the other student government um, you know, officers call me PR Queen. And I feel like that has stuck with me like my whole career. People have been like, oh, Amy, PR. Like they just think of me as you know being somebody that that um is really passionate about PR. And I have found a team of women that feel the same way. And, you know, in some cases we worked together previously, and in other cases we just found each other, and and now we all share this passion for you know working with really great brands and and helping them get you know those those wins.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

And you proudly wear that crown. Yes, I am the queen of PR. And we have dug deep in this podcast. And I appreciate you know all the reflection you've done on your journey as a working mom and all the things that you've been through. I wonder, as one question as we wrap up, if you could go back to an earlier time and you knew then what you know now, what's something you would change in your career or your personal life?

SPEAKER_00 52:36

That's such a good question. I would say give yourself time because I was always in a hurry. I was always like looking to the next chapter. What's next? What's coming? Let me learn about it. And I think I'm at a point where, you know, now I'm like, it will happen. Just give it time. And I have to tell myself this too, as a business owner. Like, you know, it it's only been five years. And when I look at successful companies, especially built by moms, you know, these are 15-year journeys in a lot of cases. And so the same advice I would give my younger self, I give myself today, which is it takes time, don't rush.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

That's a beautiful message. And I thank you for all you revealed on today's episode of Women and Work. If you were inspired by today's story, remember to share it with a friend, leave a review, or subscribe to meet our next amazing guest. If you or anyone you know is struggling to find the right childcare, just submit your criteria and then watch a video interview with the ideal nanny who fits your family at momsub.com. That's momsub like a substitute mom. Our mission is for you to get the help you need so you can discover what you want in life, pursue it with intensity, and fulfill your dream, reducing your stress, guilt, and self-criticism, and increasing your calm, confidence, and clarity along the way. Remember, your career, your choices, and your success are yours to define. So keep pushing boundaries and spreading your love and encouragement to other women who need it.