{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":0.0,"endTime":16.0,"body":"Welcome to another episode of Runtime Arguments. It's our pleasure to be with you today to talk about, I don't know, something. Wolf's got something to talk about. I think it's going to be really interesting, and I'm looking forward to it. He'll explain it in a couple of minutes."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":16.0,"endTime":27.0,"body":"Uh, this is our, uh, episode 36, our 37th episode. My name is Jim McQuillan, and with me today, as always, is my great friend, Wolf."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":28.0,"endTime":32.0,"body":"Hey everybody, I'm super happy to be here as usual."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":33.0,"endTime":43.0,"body":"Alright, so today we're going to talk about getting the job done. It sounds like a productivity episode, and maybe it is a little bit."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":38.0,"endTime":39.0,"body":"Sort of."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":43.0,"endTime":48.0,"body":"Wolf says it's not. We'll see, we'll let you decide."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":48.0,"endTime":50.0,"body":"What is this?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":53.0,"endTime":63.0,"body":"that thing you're short on isn't time, is what he wants to get to. And that job is never actually done. We'll see about that. Um…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":63.0,"endTime":68.0,"body":"Before we get into that, the meat of the episode, feedback. Do we have any feedback, Wolf?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":69.0,"endTime":77.0,"body":"Uh, I think we absolutely do. I've got some. Um, I had conversations face-to-face."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":77.0,"endTime":81.0,"body":"with a couple of people who listen to the show."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":81.0,"endTime":86.0,"body":"And they both wanted to talk about."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":86.0,"endTime":87.0,"body":"How was your week?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":87.0,"endTime":91.0,"body":"Um, and one of them said…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":91.0,"endTime":98.0,"body":"You know, there are probably people listening who just want to get to the meat of the show."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":98.0,"endTime":106.0,"body":"Um, and how's your week is 6 minutes, or whatever, in between them and what they care about."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":106.0,"endTime":110.0,"body":"And he didn't actually say HE didn't like Howcher Week."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":110.0,"endTime":115.0,"body":"Um, he just said there might be people who don't like it, so that was one thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":115.0,"endTime":128.0,"body":"And the other side of that was another person. I didn't mention the feedback I just said to him. We just happened to be talking about the podcast, and he said."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":128.0,"endTime":140.0,"body":"I'm not really, um, always the right audience for the technical details, but I love How's Your Week? because it reminds me of."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":140.0,"endTime":143.0,"body":"You, and having lunch with you, and…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":143.0,"endTime":157.0,"body":"the things you and me, Jim, uh, are the reason that makes us have this podcast, what it's like to actually have a real conversation. So, two different sides of the same question. That was one piece of feedback."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":157.0,"endTime":158.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":158.0,"endTime":167.0,"body":"And I have a thing, I don't know if this is feedback, or if it's just a personal note, many, many times."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":167.0,"endTime":178.0,"body":"In the course of the podcast, everybody out there, you've heard me say at least one of these two things I really don't like about myself."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":178.0,"endTime":182.0,"body":"One of them is, I am too loud."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":182.0,"endTime":188.0,"body":"Um, and the other thing is, I talk too much."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":188.0,"endTime":190.0,"body":"Especially…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":190.0,"endTime":193.0,"body":"When somebody asks me a question."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":193.0,"endTime":194.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":194.0,"endTime":197.0,"body":"I could blame things, like…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":197.0,"endTime":202.0,"body":"When you have a specific, uh…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":202.0,"endTime":212.0,"body":"knowledge about something. Usually it's complicated, and when somebody asks you a question, you want to tell them the most accurate, true thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":212.0,"endTime":215.0,"body":"And you can't just say yes or no."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":215.0,"endTime":224.0,"body":"If you were smart, you'd say, yes, but there are some edge cases, and then you'd decide if you wanted to go deeper or not."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":224.0,"endTime":238.0,"body":"Well, I'm maybe not that smart, because what I usually do is, um, I'll talk for 10 or 15 minutes about the things I feel like you ought to know before I can tell you what the answer is."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":238.0,"endTime":239.0,"body":"And then…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":239.0,"endTime":250.0,"body":"If you're lucky and I remember, I'll tell you the answer, and then I'll go on for another 10 or 15 minutes about why that's the answer and what else you might need to know. Uh, so this is horrible."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":250.0,"endTime":253.0,"body":"Uh, most people…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":253.0,"endTime":260.0,"body":"Uh, are asleep before we even get to the answer, if there even is one. Um, and…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":260.0,"endTime":262.0,"body":"Next time they have a question."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":263.0,"endTime":266.0,"body":"They know who not to ask."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":266.0,"endTime":276.0,"body":"So, to me, that feels like a problem. I think I have some answers, and those might be helpful, and I want to share them."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":276.0,"endTime":278.0,"body":"But I'm not sharing them in a good way."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":278.0,"endTime":281.0,"body":"And Jim and I actually."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":281.0,"endTime":283.0,"body":"discussed this."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":283.0,"endTime":285.0,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":286.0,"endTime":290.0,"body":"You know, the first step to, uh…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":290.0,"endTime":300.0,"body":"solving a problem is admitting you have a problem. So, here's me admitting I have a problem, and Jim and I decided on a course of action."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":297.0,"endTime":299.0,"body":"Well."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":300.0,"endTime":303.0,"body":"I know what to do."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":303.0,"endTime":310.0,"body":"I need to do the thing I just said. I need to jump straight to the answer, and then say."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":310.0,"endTime":315.0,"body":"But there are some edge cases, or whatever, if there would have been more."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":315.0,"endTime":323.0,"body":"And then Jim and I together can decide, is this a thing where it's worth digging deeper, or was that enough?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":323.0,"endTime":328.0,"body":"Because maybe it's enough. And if Jim asks the question that way."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":328.0,"endTime":333.0,"body":"And says, start with the answer, then we'll figure out where to go from there."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":333.0,"endTime":336.0,"body":"That will remind me not to be a total jerk."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":336.0,"endTime":338.0,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":338.0,"endTime":342.0,"body":"And this does not apply just to Jim."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":338.0,"endTime":353.0,"body":"Well, it's not… it's not being a jerk. I mean, you're… I tell people this, I've told you many times, you're the smartest person I know. I know you can answer the question. So it's not being a jerk about it, it's uh…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":353.0,"endTime":359.0,"body":"It's tuning the conversation so that we both get what we need out of it."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":359.0,"endTime":361.0,"body":"Right? And…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":360.0,"endTime":361.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":361.0,"endTime":370.0,"body":"And, uh, yeah, sometimes I need more, but sometimes I'm… I was like, God, is he ever gonna get to the answer?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":370.0,"endTime":376.0,"body":"And then, and then I zone out. So, so this is, this is our attempt."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":371.0,"endTime":373.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":374.0,"endTime":376.0,"body":"I, I, of course."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":376.0,"endTime":385.0,"body":"once you and I discussed this and came up with a plan, um, I immediately told my wife, and she said."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":385.0,"endTime":389.0,"body":"Can I do it too?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":389.0,"endTime":397.0,"body":"And uh… I want everybody to do it. If you're talking to me and you're concerned, um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":397.0,"endTime":407.0,"body":"that you've just opened a door into endless, too-loud, um, un-incomprehensible answers, uh."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":407.0,"endTime":417.0,"body":"ask the question the way Jim and I just agreed. Remind me, uh, not to go on and on. That's… that's my plan. And… and I called this out on purpose."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":417.0,"endTime":419.0,"body":"Because…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":419.0,"endTime":422.0,"body":"Well, you'll see why."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":421.0,"endTime":422.0,"body":"Yah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":422.0,"endTime":426.0,"body":"So that's the feedback I have for this episode."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":426.0,"endTime":430.0,"body":"Since I'm talking, let me ask you, Jim."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":430.0,"endTime":432.0,"body":"How is your week?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":432.0,"endTime":448.0,"body":"I've had a great week. I'm gonna start off with, last week, I read that book that Wolf gave me. I think we mentioned it a couple of weeks ago in the previous episode. Jonathan Livingston Siegel, I think I made the comment that I thought."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":443.0,"endTime":445.0,"body":"I think we did."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":448.0,"endTime":450.0,"body":"He was the author."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":450.0,"endTime":469.0,"body":"But he's not. The name of the book is Jonathan Livingston Siegel, and it's been around since 1970, I think. And I read it for the first time, and I'll tell you what, I'm gonna read it again and again. It's a short book. It's, uh… you take out all the pictures, it's maybe 80 pages, and it's not very dense material."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":469.0,"endTime":486.0,"body":"And I just really, really enjoyed it. It sort of spoke to me. I even went so far as to go to the Wikipedia page about this book, and it was quite interesting. And when the book first came out, the publisher didn't know how to categorize it."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":486.0,"endTime":494.0,"body":"They, they didn't know if it was a self-help book or a religious book or what they, they."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":492.0,"endTime":494.0,"body":"It wasn't any of those."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":494.0,"endTime":509.0,"body":"No, but it touches all of those, right? I mean, it never… it… in a weird way, it's a little bit about religion, without saying so. That's what I got out of it. Maybe you got something else. I just really enjoyed it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":497.0,"endTime":498.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":509.0,"endTime":520.0,"body":"So, if you… if you… if you want to read an interesting book that I… I read it in about an hour, and I'm not a very fast reader, so you could probably read it in 20 minutes. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":517.0,"endTime":519.0,"body":"I told you so."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":520.0,"endTime":529.0,"body":"You did. I, I, uh, it was just a really easy read, and I really enjoyed it, and I'm looking forward to reading it again. Uh, anyway, that, uh…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":527.0,"endTime":530.0,"body":"That actually gives me two questions."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":529.0,"endTime":530.0,"body":"What's that?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":530.0,"endTime":535.0,"body":"The first one is, well, the first one's an observation."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":535.0,"endTime":551.0,"body":"people who know stuff about this author, Richard Bach, Richard Bachmann, I think. Anyway, he's actually written multiple books. I've never read any of the other ones, but the important ones were a book named."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":540.0,"endTime":542.0,"body":"Yep, yep."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":551.0,"endTime":552.0,"body":"One."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":552.0,"endTime":564.0,"body":"and a book named Illusions, and I don't remember if there was a book named The Reluctant Messiah, or if that's the subtitle of one of the two books I just named. That's one thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":564.0,"endTime":568.0,"body":"And number two is the actual question."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":568.0,"endTime":570.0,"body":"I told you."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":570.0,"endTime":575.0,"body":"that Jonathan Livingston Seagull is…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":575.0,"endTime":580.0,"body":"Sort of my philosophy put to words, now that you've read it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":581.0,"endTime":583.0,"body":"Does that sound right?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":584.0,"endTime":599.0,"body":"I, I was really surprised at how it aligns with the way I think. So maybe the answer to that question is yes, right? It, it, it sort of aligns with what I've always thought. Uh, and it certainly opened up my mind to think."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":593.0,"endTime":594.0,"body":"Mmhm."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":599.0,"endTime":607.0,"body":"differently, but, um, yeah, it's, I, I guess it's, it, it's my philosophy, or, or."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":607.0,"endTime":618.0,"body":"a good part of it. And I don't want to spoil what it's about, because I want people to read it and be surprised, and enjoy it. It was pretty cool."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":618.0,"endTime":628.0,"body":"And I'm thinking I'm gonna maybe read some of his other books to see what they're like, to see if they're anything like this. Or maybe they're duds, I have no idea, but I'll read them."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":628.0,"endTime":630.0,"body":"I like to read."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":628.0,"endTime":631.0,"body":"I look forward to your reviews."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":630.0,"endTime":632.0,"body":"Yeah, okay."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":631.0,"endTime":633.0,"body":"Anyway, keep going."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":632.0,"endTime":637.0,"body":"So this is turning into book club? Is that what this is?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":638.0,"endTime":642.0,"body":"Hit runtime arguments and book review."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":643.0,"endTime":665.0,"body":"All right. Last episode, we talked about HTTP three and I'm sorry, just it was HTTP, the unsung hero of the internet. And one of the things I brought up was HTTP three, which I thought was pretty interesting. I wanted to talk about it because Marlin mentioned it and said it's really important at Meta."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":665.0,"endTime":675.0,"body":"where he works. And, uh, so I dug into it a little bit. I thought, what would it take for me to implement, uh, that on my servers? Uh, well, it turns out HAProxy supports it."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":675.0,"endTime":691.0,"body":"So that was easy. Turn on an option. Only it doesn't fully support it because of the SSL library that's linked against HAProxy, the one that ships in distros, doesn't support the QUIC protocol properly. That's Q-U-I-C. So it doesn't fully support it."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":691.0,"endTime":706.0,"body":"well, so I had to go and get a different HAProxy package, uh, right from… I think I got it from HAProxy.org. I installed that, so now I thought I was on my way, only I still wasn't getting, uh, H3, and I…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":706.0,"endTime":716.0,"body":"did a little more digging. I'll tell you what, I worked a lot with Claude, back and forth. This was hours of Claude and me discussing this and working through the issues."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":716.0,"endTime":732.0,"body":"Turns out Google, or I'm sorry, Chrome refuses to talk HTTP 3 if you're using an SSL certificate that wasn't signed by one of the big certificate authorities."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":732.0,"endTime":735.0,"body":"that the certificate is built into the Chrome itself."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":735.0,"endTime":749.0,"body":"Chrome will use its own built-in certificates, and it'll also use the certificates that are installed on your system, and in my case, it's macOS, and there's a trust store where you can store all these certificates. Chrome won't."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":749.0,"endTime":764.0,"body":"Uh, do H3 with a, uh, certificate that you've created yourself and signed with your own CA. I've always, for years and years, I've always used, generated my own certificates for all my internal stuff and, uh, signed it with my own CA."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":764.0,"endTime":782.0,"body":"certificate. And that's always worked really well. But Chrome refuses to do h3. Turns out Firefox also refuses. And by the way, Safari doesn't care. Safari will talk h3 to anything as long as one of the requirements of HTTP three is that it has to be over SSL."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":783.0,"endTime":798.0,"body":"So, uh, anyway, Safari doesn't care. I was annoyed that Chrome was doing that, but I guess it's a security thing. I don't know, it seems to me that they could trust any certificate as long as there's a CA behind it that they know about."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":798.0,"endTime":800.0,"body":"But, uh, I got it working."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":800.0,"endTime":815.0,"body":"And it's pretty cool. It turns out, unless you're Google or Meta or, you know, doing YouTube or Netflix or something, you don't get much out of HTTP."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":815.0,"endTime":834.0,"body":"HTTP3. It doesn't buy you that much, because we're not pushing the kind of traffic that those places do. But it is over UDP instead of TCP, so there could be firewall issues in the way of people doing it. But it was sort of an exercise that I wanted to try. And it was interesting, and when I got done, I had a sense of accomplishment."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":834.0,"endTime":843.0,"body":"And it's still being used right now, um, but it doesn't matter. I don't know. It was a fun little exercise."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":843.0,"endTime":854.0,"body":"Uh, so that's kind of what I, what I did, uh, along with all my other chores that I have to go through every, every week. Uh, how about you, Wolf?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":854.0,"endTime":857.0,"body":"What did you do?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":855.0,"endTime":863.0,"body":"Um, well, I did some amazing stuff. Um, and what I mean when I say that is."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":863.0,"endTime":873.0,"body":"I did some stuff that felt amazing to me. Like, I felt good about the world and what was happening, not, oh, I'm amazing, and not that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":873.0,"endTime":888.0,"body":"Um, one of those things was, um, I have been, uh, practicing and studying and researching to get really, uh, down into the rules."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":888.0,"endTime":900.0,"body":"for USPSA competition, and I… it finally got to be the time where I spent all weekend, uh, down in Ohio."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":900.0,"endTime":901.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":901.0,"endTime":907.0,"body":"at a live in-person RO class. RO stands for Range Officer."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":907.0,"endTime":914.0,"body":"And, uh, ROs are very important, and they're all volunteer in the sport, um, and they're the ones who."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":914.0,"endTime":925.0,"body":"run the timer, or the tablet, or keep watch. They really help with the safety during a competition, uh, making sure everybody follows the rules and the right things happen."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":925.0,"endTime":930.0,"body":"Um, and to me, that feels like a big deal. I didn't…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":930.0,"endTime":942.0,"body":"before I started this process, planned to become anything that was interesting. I just wanted to be better at the rules and be able to help people be safe. That was my plan."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":942.0,"endTime":948.0,"body":"And it was so much more interesting than that. Um, the drive was 4 hours."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":948.0,"endTime":949.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":949.0,"endTime":959.0,"body":"and it was… I would have driven 10 hours if I had… each way, if I had known how great this instructor was going to be. His name was Gary, apparently."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":958.0,"endTime":961.0,"body":"Geez, I've… I've driven 10 hours for a steak."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":962.0,"endTime":973.0,"body":"I do not think I've done that. But I love steak. But this was great. And I took the RO exam."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":973.0,"endTime":975.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":975.0,"endTime":984.0,"body":"And I passed. I am a certified RO now for the USPSA. So I feel awesome about that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":984.0,"endTime":985.0,"body":"Um, so…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":984.0,"endTime":986.0,"body":"That's really cool."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":986.0,"endTime":989.0,"body":"That's really, really neat."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":987.0,"endTime":989.0,"body":"I feel good about it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":989.0,"endTime":994.0,"body":"And there's a card and everything. I mean, you've got to print it yourself."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":989.0,"endTime":990.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":992.0,"endTime":996.0,"body":"You're a card-carrying RO."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":995.0,"endTime":1006.0,"body":"Yeah. Uh, the nice thing about You Gotta Print It Yourself is, you can print five, and put one in each bag, or, you know, whatever you're gonna do. Alright."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1005.0,"endTime":1006.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1006.0,"endTime":1012.0,"body":"Second, oh, oh, I should say that, um, to attend this class."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1012.0,"endTime":1019.0,"body":"I, uh, got to spend the weekend, my very, very good friend, and…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1020.0,"endTime":1022.0,"body":"I'm gonna say brother."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1022.0,"endTime":1031.0,"body":"my brother, Tony Stearns, Dr. Tone, put me up. Uh, he and his lovely, uh, wife, Veronica, with a K."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1031.0,"endTime":1037.0,"body":"Um, they were so kind to me, and we grilled, and we talked, and…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1037.0,"endTime":1053.0,"body":"Tony is the one who basically made my life be okay when I was a young man and was out of the house that my parents owned."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1053.0,"endTime":1055.0,"body":"Um, which…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1055.0,"endTime":1057.0,"body":"Happened around age 14."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1057.0,"endTime":1059.0,"body":"Tony is the reason I'm a human being."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1059.0,"endTime":1065.0,"body":"Um, so, I, uh, I can't just call him my best friend."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1065.0,"endTime":1066.0,"body":"He's my brother."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1067.0,"endTime":1068.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1068.0,"endTime":1076.0,"body":"Thank you, Tony, for putting me up. Uh, okay. Now, there is a part over the course of the last couple of weeks that I did."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1076.0,"endTime":1082.0,"body":"where I do feel good about myself, about the thing I accomplished and did."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1082.0,"endTime":1093.0,"body":"And that is, I implemented a complete solution to a very hard problem. Don't get the idea, I'm not done. There's plenty left to do."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1093.0,"endTime":1098.0,"body":"Uh, but it does function, it is ready, it does the production level thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1098.0,"endTime":1106.0,"body":"Um, the problem, uh, has been considered until I took it, uh, to be."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1106.0,"endTime":1116.0,"body":"very, very challenging. Perhaps too challenging. Perhaps something you can't do fast enough to keep up with the input data, which is billions of points per day."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1116.0,"endTime":1117.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1117.0,"endTime":1118.0,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1118.0,"endTime":1124.0,"body":"made a complete solution that lives up to my standards, that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1124.0,"endTime":1134.0,"body":"builds the library the right way that has to… and the whole thing. And it's, uh, roughly an 8000x speedup over initial attempts."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1134.0,"endTime":1138.0,"body":"So I felt like I did some good in terms of, um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1138.0,"endTime":1140.0,"body":"Processing power."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1140.0,"endTime":1141.0,"body":"Um, but…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1142.0,"endTime":1151.0,"body":"And, uh, I feel pretty good about that. And also, um, you'll see why this might matter, uh, as we continue the talk."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1151.0,"endTime":1160.0,"body":"I have a fancy keyboard on my desk or had just a beautiful I love it curved."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1160.0,"endTime":1175.0,"body":"Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro. It's two separate halves, it's Bluetooth, um, you plug it in, it's totally programmable, and big! It takes up a huge amount of space on my desk."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1175.0,"endTime":1186.0,"body":"And now it doesn't, because I just don't use it enough. Normally, I'm sitting in my chair, um, and I'm… I'm basically only on my desk for recording. That's when I get my big monitors and stuff."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1186.0,"endTime":1188.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1188.0,"endTime":1199.0,"body":"So that's my week. Uh, overall, pretty good. The 132 hours I put into the past fortnight of, uh, work."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1199.0,"endTime":1201.0,"body":"Might be a little excessive."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1201.0,"endTime":1206.0,"body":"I think I have a balance problem? A work-life balance problem? I gotta work that part out."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1204.0,"endTime":1206.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1207.0,"endTime":1211.0,"body":"Yeah, but 8,000 times improvement, that's pretty good."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1211.0,"endTime":1213.0,"body":"Hi Coconut Matt."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1212.0,"endTime":1213.0,"body":"That's."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1213.0,"endTime":1217.0,"body":"That's pretty good. Are the bosses happy?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1218.0,"endTime":1220.0,"body":"Well…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1220.0,"endTime":1228.0,"body":"You know how people do that thing where they're super happy but they don't want to show it?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1228.0,"endTime":1229.0,"body":"Ugh."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1229.0,"endTime":1235.0,"body":"Like, they're, you know, they're super, they're, like, smiling underneath, and on top they're saying."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1235.0,"endTime":1238.0,"body":"I think that might be acceptable. Stuff like that, right?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1237.0,"endTime":1244.0,"body":"Yeah, because if they show their, if they show their happiness, that means they have to pay you more or something."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1238.0,"endTime":1240.0,"body":"Which I attribute to…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1245.0,"endTime":1249.0,"body":"I, uh, that's the implication, yeah, that's what I'm saying."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1247.0,"endTime":1249.0,"body":"Yeah, yeah, okay, all right."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1249.0,"endTime":1256.0,"body":"No, I love my bosses, and they did give me positive feedback and made me feel like my work mattered."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1257.0,"endTime":1260.0,"body":"Well, that's good. That's good."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1257.0,"endTime":1261.0,"body":"And that's really what I care about. Does my work matter?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1260.0,"endTime":1265.0,"body":"All right. Should we get on to the meat of the episode?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1265.0,"endTime":1270.0,"body":"I think we should. Uh, do you want me to just start talking? Uh, and then…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1267.0,"endTime":1268.0,"body":"All right, I'm gonna…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1268.0,"endTime":1271.0,"body":"Just just start."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1271.0,"endTime":1273.0,"body":"It's gonna be a conversation."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1273.0,"endTime":1274.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1273.0,"endTime":1279.0,"body":"And I think maybe some of the things that I want to say are controversial."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1279.0,"endTime":1280.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1280.0,"endTime":1281.0,"body":"But…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1282.0,"endTime":1288.0,"body":"It's a bunch of lines that all lead into the center."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1288.0,"endTime":1296.0,"body":"And we're gonna have to tackle some of those lines one at a time, and it won't make sense. So I'm gonna start with the thing at the center."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1296.0,"endTime":1299.0,"body":"And the thing at the center is…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1299.0,"endTime":1303.0,"body":"You have a fixed budget."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1303.0,"endTime":1304.0,"body":"of attention."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1304.0,"endTime":1306.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1307.0,"endTime":1308.0,"body":"And…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1310.0,"endTime":1312.0,"body":"Life and success."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1312.0,"endTime":1316.0,"body":"is about aiming that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1316.0,"endTime":1319.0,"body":"amount of attention, what you have."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1319.0,"endTime":1321.0,"body":"In the right portions."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1321.0,"endTime":1322.0,"body":"at the right things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1323.0,"endTime":1324.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1324.0,"endTime":1326.0,"body":"If you do those."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1326.0,"endTime":1333.0,"body":"Um, that's what leaning your ladder against the right wall means."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1333.0,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"And the problem is that where you're going…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1339.0,"body":"The target?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1339.0,"endTime":1342.0,"body":"It's always moving."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1342.0,"endTime":1348.0,"body":"So that's what I want to talk about today. I want to talk about what you have."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1348.0,"endTime":1351.0,"body":"What you don't have…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1351.0,"endTime":1356.0,"body":"And how you can get from where you are to where you want to be."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1356.0,"endTime":1359.0,"body":"With just that and nothing more."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1359.0,"endTime":1361.0,"body":"That's the plan."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1361.0,"endTime":1362.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1362.0,"endTime":1370.0,"body":"So we have kind of an idea of what we wanted to call this episode."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1370.0,"endTime":1372.0,"body":"And that is… now?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1372.0,"endTime":1376.0,"body":"Let's talk about leaning the ladder, finally."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1376.0,"endTime":1381.0,"body":"Because we always say, is your ladder leaned against the right wall?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1381.0,"endTime":1385.0,"body":"Now we're going to talk about what that means."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1385.0,"endTime":1389.0,"body":"So now that you know what I'm actually going to talk about, Jim."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1389.0,"endTime":1394.0,"body":"Is it going to be interesting to you or are you going to tune out?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1391.0,"endTime":1396.0,"body":"Yeah, I told you, I've been looking forward to this episode."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1398.0,"endTime":1399.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1399.0,"endTime":1402.0,"body":"So let me talk about what's in your way."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1402.0,"endTime":1416.0,"body":"Uh, the most important thing is the thing that everybody says all the time. The only constant is change. Change is the only thing you can… you know, everything changes all the time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1416.0,"endTime":1422.0,"body":"The world is moving, and for you as a human being."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1422.0,"endTime":1429.0,"body":"a lot of this is about knowledge and skill and experience. And so, first."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1429.0,"endTime":1431.0,"body":"Let me say…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1431.0,"endTime":1439.0,"body":"You absolutely don't know everything. You don't even know as much as you think you know. And the more you know, the more you know you don't know!"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1439.0,"endTime":1445.0,"body":"Um, and you've got to accept that. So, number one, you don't know enough."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1445.0,"endTime":1450.0,"body":"And number two, everything you do know is perishable."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1450.0,"endTime":1455.0,"body":"Absolutely everything requires practice."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1455.0,"endTime":1458.0,"body":"If you don't do it, that thing goes away."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1458.0,"endTime":1476.0,"body":"And that means playing, um, jarts on the lawn. It means playing the piano. It means programming. It means driving. It means talking to other human beings. It means accepting other people's viewpoints. Every possible thing you can do."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1477.0,"endTime":1483.0,"body":"If you're not getting better at it by doing it, you're getting worse at it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1483.0,"endTime":1484.0,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1484.0,"endTime":1487.0,"body":"Perishability."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1487.0,"endTime":1488.0,"body":"Has two."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1488.0,"endTime":1490.0,"body":"versions."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1490.0,"endTime":1493.0,"body":"And that means, you as a human being, have."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1493.0,"endTime":1498.0,"body":"two jobs because you got to overcome both of them."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1498.0,"endTime":1501.0,"body":"The self version is…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1501.0,"endTime":1504.0,"body":"Your knowledge and skills."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1504.0,"endTime":1506.0,"body":"It's the thing I just said."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1506.0,"endTime":1508.0,"body":"The world is moving."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1508.0,"endTime":1510.0,"body":"Things are better."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1510.0,"endTime":1520.0,"body":"How do you drive right now? But now there's electric cars, that's different! Can you drive an electric car? It's not that different, but there are things that are more different."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1520.0,"endTime":1522.0,"body":"Um, so."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1522.0,"endTime":1525.0,"body":"What you know is perishable."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1525.0,"endTime":1530.0,"body":"And then the work version, in our business, Jim."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1530.0,"endTime":1532.0,"body":"We call bit rot."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1532.0,"endTime":1538.0,"body":"Um, and it's, it's not something that you made decaying."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1538.0,"endTime":1542.0,"body":"Uh, it's exactly the opposite."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1542.0,"endTime":1546.0,"body":"The world is moving on?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1546.0,"endTime":1549.0,"body":"But if you released something…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1549.0,"endTime":1553.0,"body":"And you're not constantly maintaining it?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1553.0,"endTime":1559.0,"body":"Then there's a gap between that thing, frozen in time at release date."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1559.0,"endTime":1563.0,"body":"And the current state of the ever-changing world."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1563.0,"endTime":1569.0,"body":"And as the world changes, that gap gets wider and wider and wider."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1569.0,"endTime":1576.0,"body":"And to us, it looks like, oh, the thing I released is decaying, bit rot."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1577.0,"endTime":1579.0,"body":"I mean, okay, sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1579.0,"endTime":1590.0,"body":"But that's not what it is. So the two jobs, ongoing maintenance on both of those things, and you never finish either one of them."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1590.0,"endTime":1596.0,"body":"You've got to keep yourself moving closer to the person you want to be."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1596.0,"endTime":1599.0,"body":"In skills, in knowledge, in behavior."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1599.0,"endTime":1601.0,"body":"um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1601.0,"endTime":1606.0,"body":"I'm going to talk about values later. Values are kind of forever."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1606.0,"endTime":1614.0,"body":"You discover them, you refine them, you're not moving towards them. Either you satisfy your values or you don't. I'm not going to worry about that at this moment."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1614.0,"endTime":1621.0,"body":"And you keep moving your work closer to what you want it to be."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1621.0,"endTime":1626.0,"body":"And I'm going to talk about goals for both of those things in a second."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1626.0,"endTime":1628.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1628.0,"endTime":1630.0,"body":"All of this."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1630.0,"endTime":1633.0,"body":"is constrained."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1633.0,"endTime":1634.0,"body":"By your attention."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1635.0,"endTime":1644.0,"body":"Not time. Because wall clock time, everybody has the same amount. We all have 24 hours."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1644.0,"endTime":1655.0,"body":"Uh, in a day. And when one minute ticks over, you're into the next minute. It's not like, oh, I'm out of time, I gotta stop now. That next minute is coming, it's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1656.0,"endTime":1659.0,"body":"What is limited is your attention."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1659.0,"endTime":1665.0,"body":"And that is a thing that is absolutely different for different people."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1665.0,"endTime":1670.0,"body":"It is different because like a mother of four, a single mother of four."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1670.0,"endTime":1674.0,"body":"How much discretionary time does she have?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1674.0,"endTime":1681.0,"body":"Versus how much discretionary time does one of those four children have?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1681.0,"endTime":1687.0,"body":"Those are totally different amounts of wall clock time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1687.0,"endTime":1699.0,"body":"Attention is, you know, what you can pour onto a surface, what you have in you that you can apply. And you run out of attention long before you run out of time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1699.0,"endTime":1709.0,"body":"Uh, first, because you have so many things to divide it between. Second, because it's only as awake as you are. Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1709.0,"endTime":1725.0,"body":"You don't have 24 hours of it to spare. You might have 6 hours. You might have 4 hours. On some things, your attention is powerful. If I work on a programming problem, I can do with an hour of attention."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1725.0,"endTime":1730.0,"body":"What it might take a college student two weeks to accomplish."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1730.0,"endTime":1740.0,"body":"Um, that's not because I'm smart, it's not because he's dumb, it's nothing like that. It's because, like the old plumber joke."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1740.0,"endTime":1749.0,"body":"You're not paying for the 10 minutes it took me to fix that. You're paying for the 30 years it took me to make that a 10-minute job."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1749.0,"endTime":1750.0,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1751.0,"endTime":1763.0,"body":"my attention could be, uh, that I only have 4 hours to give in a day, but 1 hour did 2 weeks' worth of that college student's time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1763.0,"endTime":1773.0,"body":"Whereas two weeks of his attention, he's got so much atten… well, in college, maybe he doesn't. But… but you can see what I'm saying. Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1773.0,"endTime":1780.0,"body":"Sometimes you have more of one thing, sometimes you have more of another, sometimes it's worth more, sometimes it's worth less."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1780.0,"endTime":1782.0,"body":"So…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1782.0,"endTime":1789.0,"body":"The key idea is attention hits hard where you're already experienced, skilled, equipped."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1789.0,"endTime":1791.0,"body":"You."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1791.0,"endTime":1793.0,"body":"Do a lot and fast."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1793.0,"endTime":1798.0,"body":"Where you don't yet know, attention is expensive and slow."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1798.0,"endTime":1802.0,"body":"So job number one, that I listed above."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1802.0,"endTime":1804.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1804.0,"endTime":1810.0,"body":"Where job one was invest in yourself, and job two was invest in the artifacts you're making, your work."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1811.0,"endTime":1817.0,"body":"Job number one isn't self-improvement for its own sake. It's not…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1817.0,"endTime":1825.0,"body":"oh, I'm gonna get smarter, and I'm gonna know stuff. That's not what it is. I mean, yeah, that's a side benefit, you like that, you feel better, great!"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1825.0,"endTime":1827.0,"body":"But also…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1827.0,"endTime":1835.0,"body":"It is the thing that improves your impact per unit of attention."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1835.0,"endTime":1837.0,"body":"It compounds."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1837.0,"endTime":1839.0,"body":"It means that…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1839.0,"endTime":1841.0,"body":"Everything you do."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1841.0,"endTime":1843.0,"body":"Count more."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1844.0,"endTime":1846.0,"body":"So working on yourself."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1846.0,"endTime":1851.0,"body":"To make you better at the things you want to do and accomplish?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1851.0,"endTime":1856.0,"body":"pays dividends over and over and over again."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1856.0,"endTime":1860.0,"body":"So, it's one of the things you must split your attention between."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1860.0,"endTime":1863.0,"body":"because of what it's going to pay."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1863.0,"endTime":1864.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1864.0,"endTime":1866.0,"body":"That."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1866.0,"endTime":1867.0,"body":"is…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1867.0,"endTime":1872.0,"body":"the key idea. That is why it comes before job two."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1872.0,"endTime":1884.0,"body":"And this constraint about attention, it's not just about saying yes to the right things, to the most important things, about that ladder being."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1885.0,"endTime":1887.0,"body":"Leaned up against the right wall?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1888.0,"endTime":1892.0,"body":"It's also about saying NO to the stupid stuff."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1892.0,"endTime":1895.0,"body":"Everything you say no to?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1895.0,"endTime":1899.0,"body":"is attention you could have spent."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1899.0,"endTime":1900.0,"body":"Poorly."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1900.0,"endTime":1902.0,"body":"And never gotten back."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1902.0,"endTime":1909.0,"body":"and turns it into attention you can spend on anything you want. Opportunity."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1909.0,"endTime":1914.0,"body":"When you say no, you don't just get another 15 minutes."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1914.0,"endTime":1919.0,"body":"You get 15 minutes that you could turn into."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1919.0,"endTime":1926.0,"body":"An extra however much for the rest of the week, the rest of the month, the rest of your life."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1926.0,"endTime":1927.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1928.0,"endTime":1929.0,"body":"Attention?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1929.0,"endTime":1931.0,"body":"is the currency."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1932.0,"endTime":1934.0,"body":"we're going to talk about."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1934.0,"endTime":1939.0,"body":"Um, I see looks on your face, Jim, I don't even know how to interpret."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1938.0,"endTime":1945.0,"body":"Oh, I've got… I've got a few things I want to say, but I'm not sure when I want to say it. I think I might… I might, uh…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1944.0,"endTime":1947.0,"body":"Oh, just jump in. Say 'em now."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1946.0,"endTime":1949.0,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1949.0,"endTime":1956.0,"body":"Over the years, we've been friends for a long, long time, and you're always trying to convince me to try new things, right?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1957.0,"endTime":1962.0,"body":"And, uh, for instance, you would love it if I used Helix."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1962.0,"endTime":1971.0,"body":"Or if I at least looked at it, right? You'd love it if I used whatever grep you're using instead of the grep that I use. Or whatever… whatever tool."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":1964.0,"endTime":1965.0,"body":"Uh-huh."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1971.0,"endTime":1972.0,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1972.0,"endTime":1974.0,"body":"Um, and this…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1974.0,"endTime":1980.0,"body":"This, uh, this little thought that you're explaining here sort of…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1980.0,"endTime":1987.0,"body":"addresses that very clearly for me. Uh, I don't… I don't want to spend a lot of time learning those new tools."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1987.0,"endTime":1991.0,"body":"Because I only have so much attention to give."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":1991.0,"endTime":2001.0,"body":"Right? I spend my attention where I think it's important, and I say no where I don't perceive a value."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2001.0,"endTime":2016.0,"body":"And this exactly fits into what you were just saying. I'm trying to say yes to the right things and no to the wrong things so that I can focus and move forward with the things that I need to move forward with. Now, you and I have different amounts of time."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2016.0,"endTime":2018.0,"body":"available for this."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2018.0,"endTime":2024.0,"body":"You sort of mentioned it way back at the beginning of the episode. Work-life balance."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2024.0,"endTime":2029.0,"body":"I don't think you can argue that I have a better work-life balance than you do."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2029.0,"endTime":2032.0,"body":"Oh, I totally agree."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2029.0,"endTime":2031.0,"body":"Because I choose."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2031.0,"endTime":2043.0,"body":"I choose that. So I just don't have the attention budget to focus on all the things that you do."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2043.0,"endTime":2051.0,"body":"And I think you think I'm just not willing to try new things. I am. I'm just… well, you've said it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2047.0,"endTime":2049.0,"body":"I do not think that."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2051.0,"endTime":2066.0,"body":"I, uh… you know, I spent a lot of my time, um… not trying out a new grep, because it's the… it's a better tool, or find. I think that's a big one for you. You've got a find that's."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2066.0,"endTime":2085.0,"body":"way better than the normal find on a Unix machine. I spend my time researching, like, what can I do with Postgres better? You know, you've said before that I'm an expert at Postgres and SQL, and it kind of makes me blush, because I'm not."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2078.0,"endTime":2080.0,"body":"Me too."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2085.0,"endTime":2092.0,"body":"I'm… I know a certain amount to get the job done, but I spend an awful lot of time trying to learn."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2092.0,"endTime":2100.0,"body":"more of it. And that's where I choose to apply my attention, is that kind of stuff, because that provides direct benefit."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2097.0,"endTime":2100.0,"body":"And that is a great path."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2100.0,"endTime":2102.0,"body":"Yeah!"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2102.0,"endTime":2111.0,"body":"Yeah, so I… all this stuff you're talking about really sort of explains how I look at things and how you look at things."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2111.0,"endTime":2113.0,"body":"I…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2111.0,"endTime":2115.0,"body":"And I can bring them together."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2115.0,"endTime":2116.0,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2115.0,"endTime":2118.0,"body":"If you're ready, do you want me to?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2117.0,"endTime":2122.0,"body":"Let's, yeah, let's keep going, because this is fun."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2119.0,"endTime":2120.0,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2120.0,"endTime":2122.0,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2122.0,"endTime":2124.0,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2124.0,"endTime":2128.0,"body":"First, I want to."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2128.0,"endTime":2129.0,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2129.0,"endTime":2137.0,"body":"Make sure that, um, everybody understands, uh, just how much measuring."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2137.0,"endTime":2139.0,"body":"you should be doing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2139.0,"endTime":2140.0,"body":"All the time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2140.0,"endTime":2143.0,"body":"Everything that matters is worth measuring."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2143.0,"endTime":2145.0,"body":"If you're just taking a guess."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2145.0,"endTime":2160.0,"body":"Well, it might be worth measuring how often your guesses are right, and how far away they are from right, because if they're totally wrong, and you're measuring that, then maybe you'll learn guessing isn't a good way to find the answer to this."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2155.0,"endTime":2157.0,"body":"So you can…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2159.0,"endTime":2162.0,"body":"You can, you can, you can tune your algorithm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2162.0,"endTime":2165.0,"body":"That's right, okay, so."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2165.0,"endTime":2167.0,"body":"Let's say…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2167.0,"endTime":2178.0,"body":"that, um, the things… everything about this is an evaluation. Everything that you look at, am I gonna do this, am I gonna do that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2178.0,"endTime":2185.0,"body":"That is an evaluation of the potential ROI for that thing, the return on investment."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2185.0,"endTime":2193.0,"body":"So, you're gonna have to figure out, what am I gonna pay? And there's a zillion different axes along which you might pay."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2193.0,"endTime":2204.0,"body":"And how you measure those has to do with the things you value. Do you value money? Do you value integrity? Do you value… whatever it is, that's gonna control."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2204.0,"endTime":2211.0,"body":"what the actual cost is to you and what the actual return is."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2211.0,"endTime":2216.0,"body":"Now, success, everything that you want to happen."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2216.0,"endTime":2222.0,"body":"Maybe that's a thing that you know for yourself. Maybe it's a thing that your customer tells you."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2222.0,"endTime":2233.0,"body":"There's gonna be goals, like, you know, we've got to be able to schedule a room, and it's got to, uh, actually pick the right room and close the transaction in under 2 seconds."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2233.0,"endTime":2239.0,"body":"That's a definition of done. Now you know what it is, and you can measure stuff on your way there."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2240.0,"endTime":2242.0,"body":"Success!"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2242.0,"endTime":2246.0,"body":"Let's pretend there's a line going from where you are to the future."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2246.0,"endTime":2251.0,"body":"Success is not the tip of that line."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2251.0,"endTime":2257.0,"body":"And success isn't actually just a point somewhere on the line, the definition of done, oh, I hit it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2257.0,"endTime":2262.0,"body":"Right? Success is a span on that line."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2262.0,"endTime":2265.0,"body":"If you fell somewhere in here."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2265.0,"endTime":2267.0,"body":"That's good."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2267.0,"endTime":2274.0,"body":"And if you're too far outside, ahead of that span, then the thing you built."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2274.0,"endTime":2277.0,"body":"is maybe risky?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2277.0,"endTime":2287.0,"body":"corner cutting, um, hard to maintain, um, untestable. Um, you don't want to go further."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2287.0,"endTime":2294.0,"body":"then the evidence lets you go. So yeah, you see me trying new things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2294.0,"endTime":2301.0,"body":"But sometimes I say no to those things. Sometimes they aren't the right answer, because they take me past the span."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2301.0,"endTime":2304.0,"body":"You choose she."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2304.0,"endTime":2310.0,"body":"shorter jumps. You say, I'm gonna spend my attention on this thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2310.0,"endTime":2312.0,"body":"And not that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2312.0,"endTime":2318.0,"body":"And you go into the span that is success."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2318.0,"endTime":2321.0,"body":"But at a different point than I do."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2321.0,"endTime":2323.0,"body":"It's still success."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2323.0,"endTime":2328.0,"body":"You're in the place that means you did it and you got what you wanted."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2328.0,"endTime":2339.0,"body":"If you'd gone below the span, that would have meant you're encouraging bit rot. You are making something that starts stale."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2339.0,"endTime":2353.0,"body":"But that's not what you're doing. You're just picking a point in the span of success that is different than mine. The thing you value is 100% deliverability."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2353.0,"endTime":2366.0,"body":"and, like, specific qualities, uh, about, um, continuous and reliable, and whereas I put higher on my list."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2366.0,"endTime":2371.0,"body":"not being stale. But I won't go, so…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2371.0,"endTime":2373.0,"body":"Fast."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2373.0,"endTime":2380.0,"body":"that I'm bleeding edge, that I'm outside the span, nor do you make choices that don't let you."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2380.0,"endTime":2381.0,"body":"Succeed."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2381.0,"endTime":2387.0,"body":"Yes, I complain because you don't want to go as fast as me?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2387.0,"endTime":2390.0,"body":"But you're successful."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2390.0,"endTime":2400.0,"body":"You're in the span. Is it a different way than I am? Absolutely. You and I are different. That's why our show is named Runtime Arguments."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2400.0,"endTime":2414.0,"body":"Do I think you are wrong? Do I think you're dumb? I don't think any of those things. Um, you would not be my best friend if I didn't completely respect you, your method, and your results."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2415.0,"endTime":2426.0,"body":"They're different than mine. That's all. And they're different in a way where I can still respect you. It's not like we have different values."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2426.0,"endTime":2432.0,"body":"that are opposite of each other. For instance, one of my core values is integrity."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2432.0,"endTime":2434.0,"body":"To me, um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2434.0,"endTime":2441.0,"body":"Lying, cheating, stealing, not being transparent, not being honest."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2441.0,"endTime":2445.0,"body":"Those are all wrong and bad. I don't want them."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2445.0,"endTime":2447.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2447.0,"endTime":2451.0,"body":"Things that could make me do those things?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2451.0,"endTime":2455.0,"body":"I will actively seek to make sure can't happen."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2455.0,"endTime":2459.0,"body":"I won't play a game that would encourage me to cheat."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2459.0,"endTime":2464.0,"body":"I won't accept a win that took cheating to get."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2464.0,"endTime":2468.0,"body":"And someone who thinks cheating is okay?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2468.0,"endTime":2472.0,"body":"Someone who doesn't share my value for integrity?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2473.0,"endTime":2475.0,"body":"There's a difference."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2475.0,"endTime":2477.0,"body":"That makes it be."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2477.0,"endTime":2480.0,"body":"I can't be that person's friend."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2480.0,"endTime":2487.0,"body":"Now, everybody gets to pick their own values. I can't tell anybody what their values should be."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2487.0,"endTime":2493.0,"body":"But I do get to say, we can be friends, we can't be friends."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2493.0,"endTime":2494.0,"body":"You and I?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2494.0,"endTime":2496.0,"body":"We can be friends."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2496.0,"endTime":2498.0,"body":"It's great."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2498.0,"endTime":2504.0,"body":"Does that explain my feelings about the differences in how we evaluate ROI?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2504.0,"endTime":2513.0,"body":"Yeah, but, you know, I'm still kind of stuck on the point that you and I have different levels of attention that we're willing to put into this."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2513.0,"endTime":2518.0,"body":"Because I put attention into other things as well. It's part of that work-life balance."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2515.0,"endTime":2517.0,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2517.0,"endTime":2519.0,"body":"There is tons of stuff."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2518.0,"endTime":2519.0,"body":"That's just a choice I make."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2519.0,"endTime":2522.0,"body":"I completely abandon."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2522.0,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"To give me the attention I need."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2526.0,"endTime":2529.0,"body":"to focus on these things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2529.0,"endTime":2543.0,"body":"So I can look at, why is ripgrep better than grep? Um, and then I can decide, oh, ripgrep is this much better, and it's worth learning and using. And I have the attention to do those things."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2533.0,"endTime":2534.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2544.0,"endTime":2555.0,"body":"And you, if you had that attention, might consider it to be worthwhile, but you've spent your attention on something that matches your values."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2556.0,"endTime":2566.0,"body":"Maybe it had nothing to do with computer programming. Maybe it had to do with spending time with your dog, or spending time with your children, or your wife."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2566.0,"endTime":2571.0,"body":"Um, and that's a completely reasonable choice."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2571.0,"endTime":2576.0,"body":"And one that has no disagreement at all with my values."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2576.0,"endTime":2579.0,"body":"Therefore, I can respect it and support it?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2578.0,"endTime":2579.0,"body":"Mmhm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2579.0,"endTime":2582.0,"body":"Um, and there's a place where…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2582.0,"endTime":2584.0,"body":"I ended up with…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2584.0,"endTime":2595.0,"body":"more attention available to me for this particular thing, which let me target a higher spot in the span of success."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2595.0,"endTime":2597.0,"body":"Than you did?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2597.0,"endTime":2603.0,"body":"But we're still both there, so we're still both okay. Except…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2603.0,"endTime":2606.0,"body":"That maybe I didn't get to spend enough time with my dog."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2608.0,"endTime":2612.0,"body":"See, that's implying that you are more successful than I am."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2612.0,"endTime":2627.0,"body":"No, okay. I have definitely presented this in a bad way. This is multi-dimensional. I used the word \"higher\" and \"lower\" and those words were loaded and inappropriately. Let me say it a different way."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2613.0,"endTime":2616.0,"body":"Okay, so."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2616.0,"endTime":2618.0,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2618.0,"endTime":2620.0,"body":"Yeah, okay."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2621.0,"endTime":2623.0,"body":"Yah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2623.0,"endTime":2624.0,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2627.0,"endTime":2634.0,"body":"Um, when you look at one of those weird circle diagrams that, um…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2632.0,"endTime":2633.0,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2634.0,"endTime":2648.0,"body":"it's an empty circle with lines radiating out of it, and the center is colored, but with jagged points and stuff, like some weird shape, and it describes something interesting. It's not like one point is better than another."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2637.0,"endTime":2638.0,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2640.0,"endTime":2642.0,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2642.0,"endTime":2644.0,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2648.0,"endTime":2653.0,"body":"Imagine that the success space that I'm describing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2653.0,"endTime":2665.0,"body":"is just multi-dimensional in the way this circle is, and where I said higher and lower, what I really should have said was."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2665.0,"endTime":2669.0,"body":"Further along this one axis, um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2669.0,"endTime":2686.0,"body":"and closer to where you started along this other axis. So, for instance, where I went further along the which tools am I using axis, and what they're written in, and what performance they do, and."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2686.0,"endTime":2701.0,"body":"and things like that. You didn't go as far along that axis. Is that a better or worse situation? Is that a higher and lower? Is it a better and not as good, smarter and dumber? It's none of those things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2701.0,"endTime":2703.0,"body":"All it is is…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2703.0,"endTime":2710.0,"body":"This one uses more of those particular tools, this one uses less. That's the way I should have said it, and I'm sorry I didn't."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2710.0,"endTime":2724.0,"body":"All right, so I can visualize that diagram, that graph. I wish I knew the name of it. And what I'm seeing is that if you plot out."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2724.0,"endTime":2729.0,"body":"where I am in that graph. It's closer to a circle."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2729.0,"endTime":2735.0,"body":"And if you plot out where you are, it's a little bit more bumpy."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2735.0,"endTime":2739.0,"body":"But the peaks are higher than my peaks, right?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2739.0,"endTime":2741.0,"body":"Is that kind of what you're thinking?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2740.0,"endTime":2741.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2743.0,"endTime":2746.0,"body":"I don't know. All I know is…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2744.0,"endTime":2751.0,"body":"If you're talking about, okay, this falls right into the well-rounded work-life balance, I think."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2752.0,"endTime":2757.0,"body":"Yeah, um, for sure, um, we…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2757.0,"endTime":2764.0,"body":"allocate our attention differently, and your attention is allocated in a way where you."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2759.0,"endTime":2760.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2764.0,"endTime":2767.0,"body":"Get more things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2767.0,"endTime":2770.0,"body":"And it's a better blend?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2770.0,"endTime":2778.0,"body":"So, I'm guessing, and I don't know this, I'm guessing that the things you get to put in that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2778.0,"endTime":2791.0,"body":"circle, the things you spend attention on, each one gets a narrower slice. Maybe. Um, hard to say. Um, and I focus really, really hard on a couple of things."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2790.0,"endTime":2792.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2791.0,"endTime":2797.0,"body":"Um, and I don't get any other slices. But boy, do I really pour it on for those things."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2796.0,"endTime":2799.0,"body":"You do, yeah you do."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2797.0,"endTime":2805.0,"body":"Like, I put a lot into, um, doing some really good, uh, coding stuff for work."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2805.0,"endTime":2811.0,"body":"And I put a lot into, uh, my hobby, as you know. Um…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2808.0,"endTime":2809.0,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2809.0,"endTime":2811.0,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2811.0,"endTime":2816.0,"body":"And I'm not doing a lot of other stuff."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2814.0,"endTime":2816.0,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2817.0,"endTime":2820.0,"body":"So, that's where we are."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2818.0,"endTime":2824.0,"body":"No. I get it. I get it. It helps me visualize exactly where we fit."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":2824.0,"endTime":2829.0,"body":"And it's an interesting way to think about it. And I kind of like it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2830.0,"endTime":2834.0,"body":"Um, but this brings up, um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2834.0,"endTime":2836.0,"body":"A couple of things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2836.0,"endTime":2837.0,"body":"One is…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2840.0,"endTime":2843.0,"body":"Like I started with."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2843.0,"endTime":2846.0,"body":"Spending your attention."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2846.0,"endTime":2848.0,"body":"On the things that match."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2848.0,"endTime":2851.0,"body":"Your values."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2851.0,"endTime":2854.0,"body":"Is leaning your ladder against the right wall."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2855.0,"endTime":2859.0,"body":"To know if you're actually."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2859.0,"endTime":2861.0,"body":"Doing the right thing?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2861.0,"endTime":2865.0,"body":"If you are accomplishing the things that you want."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2865.0,"endTime":2867.0,"body":"You've got to measure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2867.0,"endTime":2871.0,"body":"To know what things to try?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2871.0,"endTime":2876.0,"body":"Which will help you get to the goals and the things you value."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2876.0,"endTime":2880.0,"body":"You've got to evaluate the ROI for those things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2880.0,"endTime":2890.0,"body":"And an ROI evaluation is, um, a thing you're gonna end up doing for absolutely everything, even if you don't."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2890.0,"endTime":2897.0,"body":"Test it, or experiment, or work it out in your mind. You're still gonna make a guess, that's an ROI evaluation."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2897.0,"endTime":2901.0,"body":"I see Jim do it all the time. I do it all the time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2901.0,"endTime":2909.0,"body":"Jim and I do it differently. We do it differently for a couple of reasons. One is, we have different values."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2909.0,"endTime":2916.0,"body":"So the things that go into the cost and reward sides of that equation are measured differently."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2916.0,"endTime":2919.0,"body":"And two is, um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2919.0,"endTime":2921.0,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2922.0,"endTime":2929.0,"body":"measure differently which things I think are going to participate, and guess differently."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2929.0,"endTime":2944.0,"body":"And Jim measures and guesses differently. And one of the things that Jim guesses about is he guesses what the startup cost, the switching cost, is gonna be to actually try that thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2945.0,"endTime":2948.0,"body":"And I guess too low."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2948.0,"endTime":2950.0,"body":"Sometimes. Often, maybe."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2950.0,"endTime":2963.0,"body":"And Jim guesses what I think is too high. Um, and maybe it's because Jim is including in his guess things that really do count that I'm not counting."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2963.0,"endTime":2976.0,"body":"Oh, this would need a whole nother CPU. Oh, this would mean that it takes X hours for the person who's at the terminal to do it. Oh, this means it would… where I'm just like, well, that's gonna take me 2 hours."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2976.0,"endTime":2983.0,"body":"Um, and the difference in those things means that when Jim considers."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":2983.0,"endTime":3002.0,"body":"something that, to me, is a… feels like a no-brainer. Oh, I'll try FD, which is what I use instead of Find. That seems like an obvious win to me, once I understand what FD does. And to Jim, it's like, well, I'd have to… and I… it only matters if I use Find more than blah blah blah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3002.0,"endTime":3009.0,"body":"And we come up with different ROIs, because we genuinely have different ROIs."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3009.0,"endTime":3015.0,"body":"And the answer to Jim is not to use it, and the answer to me is to use it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3015.0,"endTime":3018.0,"body":"And we're both doing the right thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3018.0,"endTime":3019.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3020.0,"endTime":3022.0,"body":"And what this means is…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3022.0,"endTime":3025.0,"body":"This is where your values come in."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3025.0,"endTime":3027.0,"body":"And it also means…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3027.0,"endTime":3029.0,"body":"You aren't measuring enough."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3029.0,"endTime":3030.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3031.0,"endTime":3032.0,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3033.0,"endTime":3039.0,"body":"There are costs and rewards that you won't know about."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3039.0,"endTime":3042.0,"body":"Until way after you made the decision."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3042.0,"endTime":3043.0,"body":"For instance."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3043.0,"endTime":3049.0,"body":"On paper, this car is exactly what I need."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3049.0,"endTime":3051.0,"body":"And then you bring it home."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3051.0,"endTime":3055.0,"body":"And everything is great, and you drive it for four months."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3055.0,"endTime":3056.0,"body":"And you realize…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3059.0,"endTime":3060.0,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3060.0,"endTime":3062.0,"body":"Like this car?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3062.0,"endTime":3066.0,"body":"And the color is not exactly growing on me."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3066.0,"endTime":3070.0,"body":"And sticks sounded good, but…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3070.0,"endTime":3071.0,"body":"I'm in a lot of traffic."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3071.0,"endTime":3073.0,"body":"Maybe this isn't right."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3073.0,"endTime":3075.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3076.0,"endTime":3078.0,"body":"And don't be short-sighted."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3078.0,"endTime":3086.0,"body":"If spending a little something now earns you something ongoing, for instance."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3086.0,"endTime":3090.0,"body":"If spending $6,000 right now to buy a laptop."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3090.0,"endTime":3092.0,"body":"And you do the math."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3092.0,"endTime":3096.0,"body":"And that laptop will save you $70,000 a year."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3097.0,"endTime":3102.0,"body":"Not spending $6,000 this minute to get it?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3102.0,"endTime":3106.0,"body":"That is not saving $6,000."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3106.0,"endTime":3109.0,"body":"And if you count it as saving $6,000."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3109.0,"endTime":3112.0,"body":"Um, there is an expression."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3112.0,"endTime":3118.0,"body":"that people have used for hundreds of years. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3118.0,"endTime":3119.0,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3119.0,"endTime":3123.0,"body":"If saving money is one of your values."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3123.0,"endTime":3135.0,"body":"But saving $6,000 in the next 5 minutes wins over saving $70,000 this year and next, and maybe the one after that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3138.0,"endTime":3146.0,"body":"you're not evaluating your actual values correctly, because your value isn't, um, financial well-being."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3146.0,"endTime":3147.0,"body":"It's."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3147.0,"endTime":3150.0,"body":"Not writing a check. That's your value."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3152.0,"endTime":3153.0,"body":"on."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3155.0,"endTime":3159.0,"body":"Along these lines…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3159.0,"endTime":3160.0,"body":"Is."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3160.0,"endTime":3162.0,"body":"Something that…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3163.0,"endTime":3165.0,"body":"College students."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3165.0,"endTime":3167.0,"body":"Do not know yet."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3167.0,"endTime":3169.0,"body":"Something that…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3169.0,"endTime":3171.0,"body":"Uh, many people don't know."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3172.0,"endTime":3182.0,"body":"And that is, uh, the thing I'm about to say is gonna be alien to you, to anyone. The fir- the first thing anybody's gonna think in their head is, oh, of course not, I never do that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3182.0,"endTime":3189.0,"body":"And the thing I'm going to say is, do not fall in love with your answer."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3190.0,"endTime":3195.0,"body":"Because as soon as you, like, start DEFENDING it…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3195.0,"endTime":3203.0,"body":"And your defense is emotional instead of more lines of code in a folder named Experiments or Benchmarks?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3203.0,"endTime":3204.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3204.0,"endTime":3208.0,"body":"You are on a path to bit rot."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3208.0,"endTime":3217.0,"body":"Because you have said, no, I like what I have. It's right. Instead of saying, you've offered me an alternative. Would it win?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3217.0,"endTime":3220.0,"body":"You need to know, would it win?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3220.0,"endTime":3224.0,"body":"Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3224.0,"endTime":3227.0,"body":"You deciding you like the way you did it?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3227.0,"endTime":3231.0,"body":"I happen to love my car. It's a Subaru."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3232.0,"endTime":3240.0,"body":"If you offer me a different car, uh, not offer, if you tell me, hey, you should really be driving a X."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3240.0,"endTime":3241.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3242.0,"endTime":3244.0,"body":"But I'm in love with my Subaru!"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3244.0,"endTime":3252.0,"body":"And maybe driving that other car would be a significant return of value to me."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3252.0,"endTime":3255.0,"body":"I would… it would somehow make a difference."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3255.0,"endTime":3259.0,"body":"I can't let being in love with my Subaru…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3259.0,"endTime":3262.0,"body":"Color my decision."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3262.0,"endTime":3276.0,"body":"If you say, hey, you should be driving a Nissan Leaf, or whatever it is, um, because, guess what? The end value in… at the end of a year is gonna be $30,000 in your pocket."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3276.0,"endTime":3279.0,"body":"If I say, no, love my Subaru."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3279.0,"endTime":3282.0,"body":"I just threw away $30,000."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3282.0,"endTime":3285.0,"body":"Because I had an emotion."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3285.0,"endTime":3289.0,"body":"There is plenty of stuff to have a motion for."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3289.0,"endTime":3293.0,"body":"If you're a doctor, you should have empathy for your patients."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3293.0,"endTime":3296.0,"body":"If you have a pet, you should love your pet."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3296.0,"endTime":3302.0,"body":"If you're in a family, you should love your spouse, your children, your parents."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3303.0,"endTime":3311.0,"body":"You should not love your car. You should not love your algorithm. Um, you should not love your programming language."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3311.0,"endTime":3314.0,"body":"You shouldn't even love your database."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3314.0,"endTime":3318.0,"body":"You should always be ready."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3318.0,"endTime":3322.0,"body":"If it could do the right thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3322.0,"endTime":3324.0,"body":"For an affordable price."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3324.0,"endTime":3327.0,"body":"With a positive return."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3327.0,"endTime":3330.0,"body":"You should always be ready to switch."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3330.0,"endTime":3336.0,"body":"Now, switching means, if it had a huge cost, that the return was even bigger."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3330.0,"endTime":3332.0,"body":"You know."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3336.0,"endTime":3338.0,"body":"So, yes."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3338.0,"endTime":3348.0,"body":"If you've been using Postgres and your database is just 90 gigabytes or vastly bigger than that, and you've been doing it for 20 years."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3348.0,"endTime":3350.0,"body":"The switching cost is high."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3350.0,"endTime":3355.0,"body":"But if someone can prove using blah blah blah database."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3355.0,"endTime":3361.0,"body":"It's gonna put $300,000 in your pocket at the end of every year."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3362.0,"endTime":3367.0,"body":"The switch might be hard, but it's worth considering."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3367.0,"endTime":3368.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3368.0,"endTime":3380.0,"body":"Sure, you know, one of the things I say when I'm working with people and we're starting some new project, something brand new to the system, I always try to say, don't be afraid to throw away the first one."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3381.0,"endTime":3382.0,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3381.0,"endTime":3389.0,"body":"You know, you start working on something, you start heading down a path. Most of the time, it's just a good idea to just move forward."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3389.0,"endTime":3396.0,"body":"Get something working so you understand the problem better. Don't be afraid to throw it away when you're done, and then do the real one."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3396.0,"endTime":3398.0,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3398.0,"endTime":3401.0,"body":"And there's a, there's a huge tension there."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3401.0,"endTime":3405.0,"body":"Uh, uh, there's a, there's a couple of things. One is."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3402.0,"endTime":3404.0,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3405.0,"endTime":3411.0,"body":"You, as soon as what you have provides value, ship it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3411.0,"endTime":3423.0,"body":"I don't care if it is what the every minute you don't ship it is time a competitor does ship it and gets market share."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3411.0,"endTime":3412.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3423.0,"endTime":3424.0,"body":"For instance."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3424.0,"endTime":3433.0,"body":"Uh, so that's one thing. And the build one and throw it away, because now we learned things that change every single thing about this."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3433.0,"endTime":3434.0,"body":"That's a thing."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3434.0,"endTime":3438.0,"body":"But once you have a system in place and it's huge."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3439.0,"endTime":3446.0,"body":"Now, the tension is, absolutely do not throw that thing away and rewrite it from scratch."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3444.0,"endTime":3445.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3446.0,"endTime":3447.0,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3446.0,"endTime":3451.0,"body":"Now is the point where you figure out where you're going."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3451.0,"endTime":3457.0,"body":"The path to get there, and rewrite piece by piece until you are there."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3457.0,"endTime":3462.0,"body":"Because you don't want to take away something that works."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3458.0,"endTime":3460.0,"body":"Yeah, I… I've…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3462.0,"endTime":3463.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3462.0,"endTime":3473.0,"body":"Make it better. In place, as you go. And this leads directly to the thing that I want to say about your work, and you as a person."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3473.0,"endTime":3478.0,"body":"And the thing I just said about building a thing and replacing it piece by piece?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3478.0,"endTime":3483.0,"body":"We are all us, the work, the thing I just mentioned."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3483.0,"endTime":3485.0,"body":"We are all."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3485.0,"endTime":3486.0,"body":"The Ship of Theseus."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3486.0,"endTime":3493.0,"body":"We start as one thing, and we replace piece after piece after piece."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3489.0,"endTime":3491.0,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3493.0,"endTime":3496.0,"body":"Are we the same thing at the end?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3496.0,"endTime":3497.0,"body":"Well, we're better."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3497.0,"endTime":3500.0,"body":"If we do it right, and you can do it right."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3500.0,"endTime":3505.0,"body":"If you know what you value, and you spend your attention accordingly."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3505.0,"endTime":3511.0,"body":"And that is how I try to live my life. And when people care and want to know."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3511.0,"endTime":3517.0,"body":"If they listen for long enough, I'll eventually get around to telling them. That might help them, too."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3521.0,"endTime":3522.0,"body":"That's good."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3521.0,"endTime":3524.0,"body":"Did we spend a ton of time?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3524.0,"endTime":3529.0,"body":"Ah, we're good. We're under 60 minutes, but we're not quite done yet, are we?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3530.0,"endTime":3535.0,"body":"We have, we have a few other things."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3531.0,"endTime":3532.0,"body":"Where are we?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3535.0,"endTime":3540.0,"body":"that I think are worth diving into a little bit. For instance, uh…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3540.0,"endTime":3542.0,"body":"I'll bet."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3542.0,"endTime":3545.0,"body":"And I could probably even answer this for you, but I won't."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3545.0,"endTime":3549.0,"body":"That there are things you know cold."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3549.0,"endTime":3552.0,"body":"You are a freaking expert in them."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3552.0,"endTime":3558.0,"body":"Can you name things in which you are a freaking expert?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3558.0,"endTime":3561.0,"body":"that are 100% worthless now."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3562.0,"endTime":3564.0,"body":"Well, I used…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3562.0,"endTime":3565.0,"body":"And you can start with subversion."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3564.0,"endTime":3576.0,"body":"I used… no, I learned a lot from that, and that just… that's foundation for what I'm doing now. But, uh… I used to be a really good COBOL programmer."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3577.0,"endTime":3585.0,"body":"I'm not doing any COBOL programming now, so that's kind of worthless, although I learned along the way, right? I learned how to program."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3584.0,"endTime":3588.0,"body":"And the world has moved on. We don't use COBOL anymore."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3585.0,"endTime":3586.0,"body":"So…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3586.0,"endTime":3591.0,"body":"The world has moved on and I, and I don't miss that one bit."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3592.0,"endTime":3595.0,"body":"I'm sure if I thought about it, there's a ton of things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3592.0,"endTime":3596.0,"body":"Pearl is, I think."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3596.0,"endTime":3600.0,"body":"Outside the span. Just wanted you to know that."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3598.0,"endTime":3609.0,"body":"You know, it is. It is. Oh, yeah, I… actually, I was thinking that that's… I mean, I still do a lot of Perl programming, but it's not my primary focus anymore."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3609.0,"endTime":3616.0,"body":"That's… that's not my go-to for a new project. You know, I have a lot of legacy code I have to maintain. Obviously, that's gonna continue to."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3616.0,"endTime":3628.0,"body":"But new projects, I'm looking for alternative ways. Certainly, I wouldn't use Perl to write an iOS app. You can't, right? So you use Swift, or SwiftUI, or, you know, whatever you have to use."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3626.0,"endTime":3636.0,"body":"And the fact that Swift and SwiftUI and iOS are all things you're putting under your belt."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3636.0,"endTime":3650.0,"body":"That's an example of you working on yourself, moving towards your goals, learning. This is you doing the thing that people who just listen cold to our shows might think I'm accusing you of not doing, but you're doing it."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3640.0,"endTime":3642.0,"body":"Well, you know…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3651.0,"endTime":3667.0,"body":"Yeah, well, you know, a lot of times I'm customer driven, right? I do what the customer needs. They have a problem, I solve it. So sometimes that problem requires me to learn new things. I'm nearly done with a project that I've been working on for about four months now."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3667.0,"endTime":3669.0,"body":"That's all in TypeScript."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3669.0,"endTime":3672.0,"body":"And boy, that was a fun learn."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3672.0,"endTime":3689.0,"body":"You know, it's… I enjoyed it very, very much, learning how that works. And I'm no expert, I can tell you that. But I am enjoying it, and I'm getting value out of it. So yeah, I learn new things, I spend time on new things."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3673.0,"endTime":3674.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3689.0,"endTime":3695.0,"body":"What I don't want to spend time on is the things that I consider are noise. You know, the things that aren't gonna…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3693.0,"endTime":3695.0,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3695.0,"endTime":3696.0,"body":"Give me that."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3696.0,"endTime":3712.0,"body":"FD, right? Ripgrep. To me, those are noise. That's not the same value that I get by using, you know, using Swift to create an iOS app, or TypeScript to create this whole new system. That's where I gotta spend my time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3711.0,"endTime":3712.0,"body":"Now, to me."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3713.0,"endTime":3715.0,"body":"It's the same thing. I…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3715.0,"endTime":3720.0,"body":"I am I don't want to waste attention on noise."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3719.0,"endTime":3721.0,"body":"Umm. Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3720.0,"endTime":3722.0,"body":"Friction is a thief."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3722.0,"endTime":3726.0,"body":"That steals the only thing you have."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3722.0,"endTime":3724.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3726.0,"endTime":3728.0,"body":"Instead."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3728.0,"endTime":3730.0,"body":"Every time I see friction."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3730.0,"endTime":3740.0,"body":"I put it in my notes, because all about learning, you need to take notes. You need to never make the same mistake twice. Um, so, tickets, and…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3734.0,"endTime":3736.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3740.0,"endTime":3749.0,"body":"your commit history and commit messages and me. I use audio notes into my phone or my watch."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3749.0,"endTime":3762.0,"body":"just keep track of the things you've encountered and learned, and by the end of the year, be able to look. I've seen you do this, Jim, you do it on 3x5 cards, or notepad, or whatever it is. Um…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3760.0,"endTime":3761.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3762.0,"endTime":3764.0,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3764.0,"endTime":3765.0,"body":"To me."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3765.0,"endTime":3767.0,"body":"Um, it's not…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3767.0,"endTime":3777.0,"body":"learning FD, or learning RG, that's not a piece of friction for me. That's an opportunity that maybe could pay off, or not, but I have to check."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3777.0,"endTime":3781.0,"body":"The thing that's friction is some stupid."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3781.0,"endTime":3797.0,"body":"piece of work I have to do over and over and over and over again. I was having a conversation at work with my friend, we all call him Dr. Dave. He's the chief scientist, a mathematician."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3797.0,"endTime":3801.0,"body":"And he said, you don't make yourself."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3801.0,"endTime":3804.0,"body":"irreplaceable."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3804.0,"endTime":3805.0,"body":"in a job."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3805.0,"endTime":3810.0,"body":"Job security. You don't give yourself that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3810.0,"endTime":3815.0,"body":"By making yourself be the only one who can pull that one lever."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3815.0,"endTime":3816.0,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3815.0,"endTime":3820.0,"body":"Because then you're in a job where all you get to do is pull that one lever."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3820.0,"endTime":3821.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3820.0,"endTime":3824.0,"body":"You make yourself irreplaceable."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3824.0,"endTime":3826.0,"body":"By being the person."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3826.0,"endTime":3829.0,"body":"Who makes yourself replaceable?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3831.0,"endTime":3834.0,"body":"That's what we decided between us."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3831.0,"endTime":3837.0,"body":"It almost sounds counterintuitive, but I fully agree."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3837.0,"endTime":3844.0,"body":"Yeah, if you always leave the campsite better than you found it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3844.0,"endTime":3849.0,"body":"If anybody can pick up the project you've designed and work on it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3849.0,"endTime":3854.0,"body":"If what you do improves everything around you, and they don't need you anymore for that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3854.0,"endTime":3867.0,"body":"They almost certainly can't afford to bring in more people who won't do that because they don't grow the value of the business."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3861.0,"endTime":3863.0,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3866.0,"endTime":3868.0,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3868.0,"endTime":3869.0,"body":"So, alright."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3869.0,"endTime":3871.0,"body":"Where is it?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3871.0,"endTime":3873.0,"body":"Is your bit rot?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3873.0,"endTime":3878.0,"body":"Where are the things for you that only work?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3878.0,"endTime":3880.0,"body":"Because you don't touch them."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3883.0,"endTime":3886.0,"body":"Oh golly, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3886.0,"endTime":3888.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3888.0,"endTime":3893.0,"body":"I we we work really hard to for that not to be the case."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3893.0,"endTime":3894.0,"body":"You know?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3896.0,"endTime":3899.0,"body":"So, yeah, I I don't have an answer for you."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3900.0,"endTime":3901.0,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3901.0,"endTime":3902.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3902.0,"endTime":3907.0,"body":"I did save out what I think are the distilled."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3907.0,"endTime":3910.0,"body":"Lines of…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3910.0,"endTime":3913.0,"body":"These ideas. A couple."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3913.0,"endTime":3915.0,"body":"Um, for instance…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3916.0,"endTime":3921.0,"body":"Bitrot isn't decay. It's the world moving while you stand still."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3921.0,"endTime":3923.0,"body":"That's my opinion."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3923.0,"endTime":3924.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3924.0,"endTime":3926.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3926.0,"endTime":3928.0,"body":"And you don't run out of time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3928.0,"endTime":3932.0,"body":"I mean, until you do. And then you won't care anyway."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3930.0,"endTime":3931.0,"body":"Hmph."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3932.0,"endTime":3937.0,"body":"You're, you know, your widow or widower or."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3937.0,"endTime":3941.0,"body":"Or probably your dog. I hope your dog will care. But you won't."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3941.0,"endTime":3943.0,"body":"You don't run out of time."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3943.0,"endTime":3945.0,"body":"You run out of attention."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3945.0,"endTime":3949.0,"body":"And you do run out of attention every day."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3950.0,"endTime":3954.0,"body":"A value is forever."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3954.0,"endTime":3958.0,"body":"A goal is a place. And that's kind of the rule."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3958.0,"endTime":3959.0,"body":"Can you?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3959.0,"endTime":3967.0,"body":"Make it happen? Can you get there? Can you ever accomplish it? If you can, it's a goal. If you can't."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3967.0,"endTime":3971.0,"body":"Probably a value. Can you accomplish integrity?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3972.0,"endTime":3973.0,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3973.0,"endTime":3975.0,"body":"Can you?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3975.0,"endTime":3978.0,"body":"Win a game without cheating?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3978.0,"endTime":3984.0,"body":"Sure. Winning a game is a goal. You get to a point, and you know I won that game or I didn't win that game."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3984.0,"endTime":3985.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3985.0,"endTime":3987.0,"body":"That's how you know."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3987.0,"endTime":3992.0,"body":"Uh, so if it can be finished, it's a goal. If it can't, it's a value."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":3992.0,"endTime":3993.0,"body":"Hum."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3992.0,"endTime":3995.0,"body":"Not spending the six K."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":3995.0,"endTime":3998.0,"body":"isn't saving 6K."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4002.0,"endTime":4004.0,"body":"A test?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4004.0,"endTime":4009.0,"body":"is a definition of done that checks itself."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4010.0,"endTime":4011.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4012.0,"endTime":4021.0,"body":"And the thing I described as a span, and oh so poorly, um, above the span is not better."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4021.0,"endTime":4027.0,"body":"Um, let me put it this way. There's inside the span, and outside the span."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4028.0,"endTime":4033.0,"body":"And the thing that makes a good programmer?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4033.0,"endTime":4037.0,"body":"is their answer lands inside the span."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4037.0,"endTime":4041.0,"body":"And the thing that makes a bad programmer is the opposite."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4041.0,"endTime":4044.0,"body":"Either what they built is just too risky."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4044.0,"endTime":4049.0,"body":"Or, it never even got to the definition of none."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4049.0,"endTime":4054.0,"body":"I gave those names that used the words above and below, but forget that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4054.0,"endTime":4056.0,"body":"Is it in the span or not?"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4056.0,"endTime":4065.0,"body":"Yeah, you talk about SPAN, and it reminds me of Seth Godin. He talks about, does it meet the specification?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4057.0,"endTime":4058.0,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4065.0,"endTime":4067.0,"body":"Mmhm."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4066.0,"endTime":4068.0,"body":"Right? If it…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4067.0,"endTime":4071.0,"body":"Which for this discussion, I use the words definition of done."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4071.0,"endTime":4074.0,"body":"Yeah. Does it meet the specification? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4071.0,"endTime":4076.0,"body":"But I feel like there's a definition of done for everything."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4076.0,"endTime":4077.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4076.0,"endTime":4088.0,"body":"Except values. You're never done with integrity. Um, you're… but you are, uh, done with a goal, you got to 12, or whatever. Uh…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4077.0,"endTime":4079.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4088.0,"endTime":4096.0,"body":"Or, it now runs in under 4 seconds. Or, um, my wife and I saw 2 movies this week. Or…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4096.0,"endTime":4101.0,"body":"Whatever your definition of done is, it's a thing that you can accomplish."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4101.0,"endTime":4103.0,"body":"or not accomplish."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4103.0,"endTime":4107.0,"body":"Um, and finally, you, your code, your opinions."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4107.0,"endTime":4109.0,"body":"All ships of Theseus."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4109.0,"endTime":4110.0,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4110.0,"endTime":4117.0,"body":"I think that's what I have to say. I don't know if this is my philosophy."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4117.0,"endTime":4119.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4119.0,"endTime":4121.0,"body":"But it is."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4124.0,"endTime":4140.0,"body":"In some ways, I think I'm a success. In other ways, I think I'm not. There are lots of people who have tons of money, there's people who have huge families, and all kinds of love."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4140.0,"endTime":4149.0,"body":"the gigantic network. There's people who, um, are world famous. There's lots of definitions of success. And, and there's lots of them I don't meet."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4149.0,"endTime":4150.0,"body":"But."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4150.0,"endTime":4155.0,"body":"I'm super proud of my work. Um, and this…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4156.0,"endTime":4159.0,"body":"The things I said today?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4160.0,"endTime":4165.0,"body":"are what it takes for me to produce work."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4165.0,"endTime":4167.0,"body":"But not only."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4167.0,"endTime":4170.0,"body":"satisfies me, that is good enough."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4172.0,"endTime":4173.0,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4173.0,"endTime":4176.0,"body":"I'm proud of. I'm not in love with it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4178.0,"endTime":4185.0,"body":"I'm proud of it. I'm proud of the work I did. I'm proud that I made it into the span."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4185.0,"endTime":4188.0,"body":"I'm proud that I hit the definition of done."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4188.0,"endTime":4191.0,"body":"And I'm proud that the way I did it…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4191.0,"endTime":4196.0,"body":"Anybody can look and see how it works and make it better if they have better ideas."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4196.0,"endTime":4201.0,"body":"Or throw it away if they decide there's a better way entirely."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4201.0,"endTime":4204.0,"body":"And then regret their choices later when it turns out that wasn't true."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4204.0,"endTime":4206.0,"body":"Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4208.0,"endTime":4210.0,"body":"Umm."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4210.0,"endTime":4212.0,"body":"To me."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4212.0,"endTime":4216.0,"body":"The most important thing here is about the people."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4216.0,"endTime":4224.0,"body":"About identifying your own values and being more and more of the person you want to be."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4224.0,"endTime":4234.0,"body":"and learning more and more, so that you can make a bigger impact on others, and then they can make a bigger… pay it forward. I want everybody to pay it forward."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4233.0,"endTime":4236.0,"body":"Like you said earlier, it compounds."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4236.0,"endTime":4240.0,"body":"It does. And it was so hard."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4236.0,"endTime":4238.0,"body":"It really does."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4240.0,"endTime":4245.0,"body":"For me to go from the thing I was when I was a…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4245.0,"endTime":4247.0,"body":"Child."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4247.0,"endTime":4248.0,"body":"To this?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4249.0,"endTime":4252.0,"body":"I want to pay it forward."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4252.0,"endTime":4253.0,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4252.0,"endTime":4256.0,"body":"I want other people to experience the…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4256.0,"endTime":4261.0,"body":"joy of the kind of success I have, that they can."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4261.0,"endTime":4265.0,"body":"experience joy in, I want them to have it."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4265.0,"endTime":4267.0,"body":"Um, and it doesn't cost anything."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4268.0,"endTime":4273.0,"body":"All it costs is knowing what matters."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4273.0,"endTime":4276.0,"body":"And saying no to everything else."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4276.0,"endTime":4280.0,"body":"There's a few details in between."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4280.0,"endTime":4282.0,"body":"But, um…"},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4284.0,"endTime":4285.0,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4284.0,"endTime":4285.0,"body":"That's what I like."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4286.0,"endTime":4302.0,"body":"All right, great. Should I take it out? Yeah. So thank you, everybody, for listening. We appreciate it. We do this every two weeks and we certainly we'd appreciate it if you'd pass the word on. We do have we do have a way of."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4287.0,"endTime":4288.0,"body":"You want to wrap it up?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4288.0,"endTime":4290.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4302.0,"endTime":4313.0,"body":"you sending us feedback, if there's something we've said that you would, uh, you would disagree with, or maybe you agree with it, or maybe you have something to add to it, please, uh, send us feedback. Or you…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4310.0,"endTime":4315.0,"body":"Or if you want more swearing, because that would be easy."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4313.0,"endTime":4315.0,"body":"Sorry, one more, sorry."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4315.0,"endTime":4325.0,"body":"I think we reign that in pretty well. But you can send us feedback at, what's the email address, Wolf? Feedback at runtimearguments.fm?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4323.0,"endTime":4327.0,"body":"Feedback at runtimearguments.fm."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4326.0,"endTime":4342.0,"body":"Yes, send us feedback. If you forget what that email address is, if you look in the show notes, we always have show notes and we always include those links in the show notes so you can reach us that way. Look in your podcast player."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4342.0,"endTime":4356.0,"body":"And someplace there should be show notes, and you can find us that way. Of course, both of us are on Mastodon. I won't bore you with our Mastodon account names. You can just look it up in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4356.0,"endTime":4363.0,"body":"You can find our website in the show notes. You can find other episodes on our website."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4363.0,"endTime":4370.0,"body":"Uh, runtimearguments.fm, http colon slash slash runtimearguments.fm. Um…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4368.0,"endTime":4370.0,"body":"That's right, no F's."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4370.0,"endTime":4379.0,"body":"Yeah, it's not HTTPS. That's because of our hosting, and we have a transcript, and uh… man, life is good, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4372.0,"endTime":4374.0,"body":"And we have a transcript."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4380.0,"endTime":4383.0,"body":"So yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4380.0,"endTime":4385.0,"body":"Well, you know, mostly. 132 hours, less good, but you know."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4384.0,"endTime":4386.0,"body":"Yeah, right, well…"},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4385.0,"endTime":4387.0,"body":"8,000 X. Good, good."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4387.0,"endTime":4398.0,"body":"Good, good, yeah. Alright. Well, hey, have a great, uh, week or two, everybody. Look forward to, uh, having you back, uh, next time. And Wolf, as always."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4395.0,"endTime":4397.0,"body":"I I I wanted to."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4398.0,"endTime":4401.0,"body":"As always, thank you for podcasting with me."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4401.0,"endTime":4416.0,"body":"Oh, my pleasure. I wanted to say if anybody out there has opinions about how was your week, absolutely tell us. I really want to know. And this was a weird topic today because it wasn't so technical."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4411.0,"endTime":4412.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4416.0,"endTime":4425.0,"body":"Um, is this an okay thing? Let us know about that, and please, yeah, absolutely, tell us you want more swearing, because I'm happy to provide that."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4424.0,"endTime":4430.0,"body":"And if you have ideas for episodes, we are all ears."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4430.0,"endTime":4431.0,"body":"We are."},{"speaker":"Jim McQuillan","startTime":4430.0,"endTime":4433.0,"body":"So, thank you everybody. Bye-bye."},{"speaker":"Wolf","startTime":4432.0,"endTime":4434.0,"body":"Thank you. Bye."}]}