Episode 3 - Looking for LINDA (with Jill Robertson)

Episode 3: Looking for Linda (with Jill Robertson)
Welcome to a special episode of The Coaching Lens—our very first featuring a guest. We’re joined by the thoughtful and inspiring Jill Robertson, a coach whose journey into the profession is shaped by empathy, deep listening, and a belief in the power of creating safe spaces for leaders to truly talk and grow.

In this episode, titled Looking for Linda, we explore Jill’s coaching story—how she got here, what drives her, and what she’s discovered along the way. From navigating the shift from doing to being, to the moments of transformation that come from simply being heard, Jill shares honest reflections and practical insights into what it means to coach with care and curiosity.

Whether you’re a fellow coach, a leader seeking space to reflect, or simply curious about the human side of leadership development, this episode offers warmth, wisdom, and a reminder that sometimes, the greatest impact comes from just showing up and listening.

Transcript

UNKNOWN: 0:00

Bye.

SPEAKER_01: 0:08

Hello Alan, episode three. Hey mate, how are you? I'm very well, thank you, you? Yeah, yeah, first game of the cricket season this week, I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00: 0:16

I've already broken a finger so I'm past that bit. Now we have with us for our third podcast, our first guest, I want to say hello and welcome Jill.

SPEAKER_02: 0:27

Hello, good to see you both.

SPEAKER_00: 0:28

I know it's been a long time hasn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 0:30

A very, very long time. We're

SPEAKER_00: 0:33

a lot more grown up since those days. We hope. I'm doing my teacher's cat as requested again, and actually Jill is an ex-teacher, so that's quite pertinent. We are welcoming our first guest into this series of podcasts about coaching, and it's lovely that Jill shares the same passion that we do for coaching, which is really what this is all about, getting that community together, learning from each other. And she's currently in the Welsh Hills in her mobile home. Is that what you call it? Is that not the trendy word for it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:06

Campervan's a bit cooler, Nick.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08

Campervan. man sorry it's a mobile home for anyone listening gorgeous weather there

SPEAKER_02: 1:14

we've had beautiful weather i mean it could be anywhere in the world to be honest but we're in north wales

SPEAKER_00: 1:20

sounds fantastic well it's lovely to have you here i'm going to hand over to alan and we've got some questions that we kind of pre-prepped you for a little bit but we're going to keep this pretty fluid okay

SPEAKER_01: 1:30

so it became very apparent to nick and i over the first two episodes that we use a lot of metaphors and even the the second episode is called the metaphor one so what would you describe your coaching style or or how you coach as a metaphor jill

SPEAKER_02: 1:48

well as you've said both of you covered quite a lot of them in your first two episodes so i did i did listen to you so yeah thinking about it there are so many aren't there there are lots that you could you could sort of link coaching to but i think mine came up with me being a coach like being an artist and i say that because i think we are creating canvases so we start with a blank canvas and I think you both alluded to sort of getting to know you know your clients etc etc and you know establishing trust and rapport in order to be able for them to be able to express themselves and discuss things in a safe space explore ideas and thoughts I think Alan talked about a trampoline at one point which made me laugh then we also as artists I think we use different mediums you talked about tools as well and I think in coaching you do use lots of different tools and as an artist I think in my coaching particularly as you practice you become better and you sort of refine your technique as an artist would my brother is an artist as well by the way so that's quite a good link and also at the end the end result you know it's unique for everybody involved because each client is unique and I think each circumstance is unique so yeah that would be mine in a nutshell but i could come up with lots of others if you needed them but that was the one i thought actually you know that i quite like that

SPEAKER_01: 3:14

yeah no i do and i love the the blank canvas start point as well and and kind of building building up from there you've been a teacher a head teacher why coaching why coaching now why is it why is it a passion now jill

SPEAKER_02: 3:29

that's quite easy actually and it's quite a short answer in some respects i think it's because i now have the knowledge of what positive impact and i use my words carefully here of quality coaching can have on someone professionally and personally and and I think it's the choice of words that I've got there which is positive impact quality coaching and I do say that as I say there's a there's a sort of a caveat behind that because lots of people are setting themselves up as coaches not every experience I've ever had and I'm sure I know Nick you've been in education in education has been always quality

SPEAKER_01: 4:05

what's the difference and I know this may sound a bit of a silly question but what's the difference between quality and not quality for you from your point of view I

SPEAKER_02: 4:14

think some coaching that I've experienced and it is personal experience as much of this conversation will be about personal experience coaching some coaching experience have been very much just paying it lip service and saying this is coaching when actually it's something completely different and I think I've been asked to deliver that as in it's not really coaching and I've had some difficult conversations about that and also being on the receiving end of, you know, this is coaching, but it's not really. It's just we're going to tick a box to say we do coaching.

SPEAKER_01: 4:47

Okay, that's really, really interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 4:49

I think that you make a good point about education, Jill. I feel for anyone who approaches coaching when it's not explained properly because education has got instructional coaching, which is really mentoring. You stand alongside a colleague and you're more experienced than them and you're a better teacher, more experienced teacher maybe and you will guide them to teach better lessons and that's not coaching in any way shape or form and I think education has got a blight on it unfortunately that a lot of us in education and I did it for 30 years I know you had a long career we're fixers we spend a lot of time fixing and that's not coaching that's mentoring so from my point of view when I've seen poor quality coaching it's been mentoring

SPEAKER_02: 5:33

exactly

SPEAKER_00: 5:33

it's been fixing

SPEAKER_02: 5:36

I agree I absolutely agree with that yeah

SPEAKER_01: 5:38

Well, that's a nice kind of differential of coaching to mentoring, but also, I guess, the continuum of tell to explore and everything that lies in between that as well. And talking of which, ironically, Nick and I say an awful lot, we don't use models. We don't rely on models. Yeah, I know we've used a lot of models in the first two podcasts in terms of demonstrating stuff and introducing stuff. So do you have any preferred models or a model you go to in different different phases of relationship in your

SPEAKER_02: 6:10

yeah yeah yeah i think i think we all do have something to hang hang a session on as such you know to me but again sessions have a certain you know you have a time limit and i think you alluded to it as i say in your last podcast about not rushing that and i think nick you talked about the reality stage of the grow model and and i absolutely would would say that that is crucial and fundamental so i suppose grow is very simple and and so that would be a model but yeah i would go to but i think one of the things that i've used a lot of is trying to explore feelings and emotions more which sometimes goes amiss or people want to move on because it's an issue and so for me i try and go down the feelings and emotions route because in my experience and that's all i can talk about if you can take the feelings or emotions away from an issue sometimes the issue becomes easier to discuss if that makes sense

SPEAKER_01: 7:07

and you Can you give me a nondescript example of that?

SPEAKER_02: 7:11

Yeah, I suppose it is when somebody's struggling with something. And I had one member of staff who was in a difficult school and he'd been sent in as sort of a rescue head, as it were, you know. And he was trying to build rapport, but obviously still having to have some difficult conversations with certain staff as well. And he was taking it very personally. So how things were, he was sort of taking it personally because he was a new kid on the block and he wanted to build relationships but he'd got some difficult things to say and so when we had the coaching sessions it did take more than one or two as it usually does was to try and to unpick actually what were the things he wanted messages that were the priorities that he needed to communicate with the staff without feeling that it was him doing it to them if that makes sense you know and he was taking all that baggage with him all that feeling of oh I'm the bad guy I'm the bad guy I'm the bad guy you know he'd obviously been given the trust to go in there and do a job but he was taking it all quite personally and he was he was new to that sort of role as well.

SPEAKER_00: 8:12

Jill you made a couple of points that really resonated with me you you talked about quality coaching does have a professional and a personal overlap the two things are in industry can be linked and you talked about feelings and emotions and I started studying recently to be a counsellor a therapeutic counsellor and I went there initially to check where the border was between coaching and therapy and what I learned was they lay on top of each other so significantly that what therapy does which is to explore quite often the the link between your beliefs and your behaviors and your thoughts and your feelings that feelings bit might get missed out in some coaching i think there could be a bit of queasiness about some coaches to talk too much about feelings and i know that from my own experience of training to be a coach i don't think we spent a lot of time really talking about feelings it was more about thoughts

SPEAKER_02: 9:05

exactly and that was that was the point really when i was saying about you You know, you talk about the reality and I try to explore that feelings and emotional aspect. I just find people in executive leadership positions because they have to be this person, you know, they're the person everybody looks to for direction and, you know, for advice. Showing that vulnerability, it's really difficult. It's really very difficult, especially in a situation where you're in a school that you've got to move it forward and there are some really difficult things going on and difficult conversations to be had. So showing your vulnerability is quite difficult. quite hard so exploring that I think has been really enlightening to me as a coach because as I say once you can split the two the actual issue and the emotion and feeling then the issue actually is probably much easier to solve

SPEAKER_00: 9:53

and that fits beautifully with your metaphor because your metaphor of the artist where you're splashing stuff onto the canvas is about expressing something you talked about expressing themselves well if you can't use your your words for adjectives for feelings, you're probably not expressing yourself particularly usefully, are you? So that ties in very closely with your metaphor. So let me now take you on a little journey, and we've only got minutes for this, Jill, so I know it's a difficult thing for you to do, but you moved, as I did, out of education into coaching, and it's a path that quite a few tread. Can you tell us about your journey, and specifically now, what do you think you bring from education into your coaching work?

SPEAKER_02: 10:37

Okay, yeah, there's still it could be a very long one but i'll try and keep it as concise as i can so please do tell me to be quiet if you've had enough yeah i i talked before about having some coaching sessions that i didn't really didn't really make a difference and it was because it wasn't really coaching to the deep level that i now know what it should look like after after doing the training and actually coaching you know what it looks like and what it feels like more to the point i think it was when i was doing my mpq el which is national professional qualification for example executive leadership for those who are not in education I had a great coach and her name was Linda I'll call her Linda and she was absolutely fabulous and our coaching sessions took place over the phone and it was before Covid and it was a very bizarre situation so I didn't know how it was going to quite going to work and I had a difficult a difficult situation where I was an executive head within four weeks of taking on a second school we had an inspection everything was fine so we'll keep we'll keep it as that everything was fine then within another four weeks I had another inspection and the first school were quite a vulnerable school that we'd taken on to support and we'd had the CEO come in and and it wasn't that the decisions were incorrect it was how they were delivered to the staff that I was then dealing with and I was getting myself quite wound up because a conversation to be had with the CEO there it was one I really didn't want to have as you can imagine and it wasn't that his decisions were incorrect it was a case of how he was dealing with the people at the other end of it my coaching sessions were absolutely invaluable valuable to go through the whole process so that I could have a conversation that was professional. It was organised. I said what I needed to say and felt so much better at the end of it. There was just clarity and we could move on within the relationship. Yeah, that was the starting point for me. But wow, she's really skilled. How impressive was she to get me to do that? Because I don't know how I'd have got me to do that. You know, those difficult conversations. Following that, I had quite a lot of other things that I dealt with. Snapped an Achilles tendon. You know, when the universe is trying to tell you something, you know, rest and stop. Yeah. A 99% rupture. It was a good one. I didn't stop. I went into the hospital, got it all plastered up, got the boot on, got back to work, didn't stop. So I think during some of those times, coaching was really beneficial for me to get me out of a dark place because you have those dark thoughts about, will I be able to walk again? Of course you'll be able to walk again because you've not lost your leg. Other people have lost your leg. you know those conversations that i'd had during my mpql were resonating and so for me those sort of two things were the things i've got to explore this a little bit more i've got to find out more about this and i would love to be that skilled person who could get people to take that next step

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

so it's kind of a curiosity thing of

SPEAKER_02: 13:27

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 13:28

oh there's something out there that's different from what i'm trained to do and i'm kind of impressed by it and and it can help me and i you know holding a mirror up can can help others do that as well

SPEAKER_00: 13:41

you seem to be almost surprised at how effective it was given difficult a dark place sounds pretty tough and the context of the school sounds pretty tough so for that impact to be so strong from linda were you surprised at it or did you already know that it could be that useful that powerful

SPEAKER_02: 14:00

no i i didn't because as i say my previous experiences through other qualifications you know i did my linda leadership qualifications going through and you know through my career and coaching was touched on and my experiences there as i said before were nothing like the one that i had on that occasion though and we were offered 10 sessions during our mpqel i was a bit apprehensive if i'm honest because of my previous experiences but i got used i i really looked forward to those sessions after the first couple i thought you know what these are really beneficial some of my colleagues who were doing the same same course they didn't even even engage in any of them. And I look forward to them. I was really sorry when they finished at the end. I was really, you know, I was thinking I need to do something about that.

SPEAKER_00: 14:45

Linda sounds amazing. I wish I had Linda right now. She sounds amazing. We're always looking out for Linda, Nick. Oh, we're back to you and cry. I didn't even set that up for you, Alan. That just came from nowhere. That is amazing. Do you know what? Don't edit that bit out, Al. Leave that one in. There's a lot of cheesy stuff coming out, but that one's staying in. Give me get ourselves back together again in some kind of grown-up way. What's interesting to me, Linda was communicating in the right way and studying on the qualification I'm now in counselling, it's all about communication and we know leadership's all about communication, coaching's all about communication. If Linda had been the CEO, what do you think she'd have been doing with the messaging? Can you imagine what a really good coaching CEO would look like with the way they messaged? Sometimes just really bad news.

SPEAKER_02: 15:34

If the CEO in a coaching situation, and this is some that I've done with a client previously is actually swap seats so so you're gonna okay put yourself in their position and actually that's also really powerful and say okay so that's what I've tried to do was to swap seats and see how it is from the other person's perspective and actually physically swapping seats if you're doing a face-to-face has been quite powerful before I did that with somebody who was very high up in education actually did that session with me when once I'd done my coaching and gave me that as a good tool to do to use which I'd not experience prior you know you do your coaching qualification but you're constantly learning and so that was somebody who was as I say quite well up in education regionally and said oh have you tried this and and I think that would have been a really good thing to do in that situation to say see how it looks from the other person's perspective and physically do that and say okay you know these people you know how they think you know how they react to certain things how would you feel if that was you and that was being delivered in that way

SPEAKER_00: 16:35

it's so nice to hear that because it's really resonating from the therapy work that I've been doing because switching seats is actually a therapeutic tool. They use it in therapy all the time, that idea of switching seats and physically doing it as well to really get into role. So it's lovely that you can see that congruence and that connection across coaching, helping, listening.

SPEAKER_01: 17:00

I know I've used that. Actually, I've used that recently, but I've done it from a kind of sporting high performance point of of you of looking at that conversation on a tv from your sofa and seeing what you would think of watching it on tv so if you have a conversation and removing yourself and going well what does that dialogue log look like to you from a third person point of view so you're first and third person in that and that's sometimes a really powerful tool to use in terms of that visualization that empathy but as you guys have both said you know in terms of that that switching roles and taking you out of context to give you a different vision on things.

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

Can I then ask you another difficult question here? When you were CEO, when you were managing multiple schools, very, very complicated business, lots of moving parts, what advice would you give the new CEO now? Now that you've had some time out and you've worked differently and you've become a coach, what advice would you give the CEO of you? And it could be about your organisation or the people in it or you.

SPEAKER_02: 18:07

Yeah, good question. I think when you're in charge, you've got to look at everybody as being unique. It isn't a one size fits all. So for me, you mentioned it and it's generic in coaching. It's about listening. And I know that I needed to take time out of my career when I was a head teacher. I stepped back because the one phrase I used to my staff at the time was, I need the noise to stop. And I think when you're in positions of executive leadership, there's an awful lot lot of noise. So therefore, my advice to a CEO would be, you need to listen, but you can't listen if there's too much noise. So you need the noise to stop, or at least quieten down before you can listen and hear what's being said. That then enables you to tune in to what is actually going on. So it does come down to basics within listening, basics of coaching when you think about it. Which session was it you two talked about again? The plan and the review disappears and you're up to your neck and doo-doo basically, aren't you? You know, you just do, do, doing. And you do get up to that point. And I think we're all guilty of that. And we've all probably experienced that. So for me, it was a case of stop all that doing because the noise is too loud. Stop the noise because I'm unable to listen and hear and therefore tune in to what I actually need to do. And it's a hard thing to do because it's a busy place. You talked about that as well, about being busy, you know, and is being busy being more effective? Is it having more impact? And some people seem to think that's what it looks like. But actually, listen, look after you because that's really important to the whole organisation. And that's what I've learned. And I'm guilty of not doing that over the course of my career.

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

That's putting your own oxygen mask on first.

SPEAKER_02: 19:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 19:58

Help someone else to put an oxygen mask on. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 20:01

absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:02

We do live, I think, in the Western world in a culture that has a very negative bias against being selfish and my daughter today is studying psychology she's 20 she we had lunch together she said to me that you can never ever it sounded quite cynical but she's been studying right so she said you can never ever trust anybody apart from yourself and altruism maybe doesn't really exist because we're altruistic because we want to get things for ourselves she was telling me about around with her her partner about cleaning up the house so it wasn't a big thing but if you talk selfishly and you're introspective. I think Western culture sees it as quite narcissistic. And if you're a leader, and when I was a head, I was told, you're paid the big bucks to sit in the big chair, crack on. It's no good if you're overwhelmed. So I think...

SPEAKER_01: 20:52

But I also think critically, listening to those two things, that's why you need a third party. That's why you need a coach. That's why you need an executive coach, someone you can trust, someone you can talk to, offload, create that space to diminish that noise as you said Jill but also then explore different areas that you need to explore and maybe people do see that as selfish how have you got the time to sit down and speak with someone for an hour or two hours a week or a fortnight but that's the selfish time for the greater good of what it is you're trying to do

SPEAKER_02: 21:29

I absolutely agree with that I think that anybody entering into a leadership position and I can talk about education for from my own perspective obviously I think every head teacher executive head teacher should be assigned a coach on appointment because you know there'll be other people listening to this in other professions who would agree probably that within their profession they need somebody alongside because you need that safe space you need a safe space where you're not being judged or you're not being you know measured or whatever you just need a space because where else do you go for the support wherever else does it come from and you know during lonely times and tough times you're looking at the four walls and thinking well there's nobody coming I've got to sort this out myself

SPEAKER_00: 22:16

well given that we're three self-employed coaches and we are violently agreeing that coaches are important in every leadership post everywhere I think that's probably a great moment to hand back over to Alan but I just want to say that it's lovely that you had a Linda and that you were inspired I had a Val and a Paul and they inspired me and they were And they helped me create my path because they did open my eyes to what quality coaching looks like and what it can achieve. Through me, I was the beneficiary of that. So I'm glad you had your Linda.

SPEAKER_02: 22:49

Absolutely. And so am I. As I say, I think coaching in a nutshell is life changing. It was for me professionally and personally because it also gave me the opportunity to be brave and step out of the education world. And now I know there's a whole world beyond it. And Nick, you do too. and isn't it lovely

SPEAKER_01: 23:08

it is wonderful i just think it's been a fantastic conversation and hey we could probably go on and on and on and we will definitely definitely have you back on as another another episode to explore some other bits and bobs that that you've raised in there but a bit deeper and a bit wider

SPEAKER_02: 23:26

no problem

SPEAKER_01: 23:27

from my point of view i loved your your artist and it's really interesting i think there is a lot of artistry in what we do i'd don't know about you guys but I always feel that when I go on a learning development course it's about the technical elements of of it you know and we can talk about that in coaching in terms of models or you go on to a sports qualification it's about different types of drills the art side of coaching is the differential for me and and for a lot of leadership is the differential so it's been brilliant that you've raised that and actually bringing out those feelings and emotions I was thinking when you were saying that if we'd have had this conversation 25 years ago 30 years ago would we have mentioned feelings and emotions and I don't think we would so to to kind of be able to bring that up now I think is really really good and I just wonder where that's going to go over the next 10 to 15 years especially with Gen Z's coming in and Gen Z's coming into leadership roles and senior senior roles how their leadership is affected by that ability to talk a little bit more emotionally a little bit more with feelings as well. But then you're not a million miles off with what we've kind of talked about the last two episodes of listening. I got to present the other week and someone said to me, what's the greatest skill you've learned in the last 20 years? And I said, the art of listening, full stop. And probably, unlike now, keeping your mouth closed and listen, and listen properly.

SPEAKER_00: 24:58

Something that I'm really going to take from this, Joe, and I really appreciate it, is that thinking about our audience of coaches, particularly standalone coaches, when you're working with a client or a coachee and you both recognize the progress, it's a wonderful feeling. And you use that phrase, life-changing that that isn't an overestimation that is not an exaggeration that is real isn't it we we see that a lot but when you tell people about your job who aren't in the business they look at your scans sometimes and say well what do you do my dad still does that and the golfers i play golf with say okay so what what do you do they know a real job they know what head teaching looks like they know what looking at the bottom of the pool looks like but they don't really know what coaching looks like so to hear it from you re-emphasize that it is life changing is what I'm going to take away because I'm a coach you're a coach I was a coach we are now communicating with the same language and it's quite it's quite reaffirming for me so thank you for that

SPEAKER_01: 25:54

and to go away with with renewed energy with it as well because the next person we talk to we might change their life in whatever way it is so it's brilliant Jill Nick thank you so much guys for your time your energy and your passion we will definitely have you back Jill Nick I have to have you back but we'll

SPEAKER_00: 26:13

can we have jill back when we do a video one because she looks much better than us

SPEAKER_01: 26:17

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 26:18

yeah i'll

SPEAKER_02: 26:20

take that i'll take that here

SPEAKER_00: 26:23

we are but not in your motorhome

SPEAKER_01: 26:26

what could

SPEAKER_02: 26:27

be somewhere else then who knows

SPEAKER_01: 26:29

most definitely so thank you and my pleasure episode four

SPEAKER_00: 26:39

so