Episode 9 - Ed Firth - Curiosity wont kill the cat

https://www.linkedin.com/in/edfirth/

A lively, no-fluff conversation with Ed Firth on cutting through noise to find the real performance levers. We unpack practical diagnostics, Kolb’s learning cycle in action, the (un)conscious competence ladder, and why EQ must be the bedrock of coaching, leadership—and recruitment.

4 key points (taster bullets)

1. Signal > noise:
   Stop treating symptoms. Use sharp questioning and targeted diagnostics to find root causes—so you deliver ROI and win repeat business.
2. Learn → reflect → explain → apply (Kolb):
   Design experiences that get people doing, then reflect, add theory, and convert insight into next-day behaviour change.
3. Keep tuning the engine:
   Teams drift from conscious competence to unconscious incompetence. Build regular “under-the-bonnet” pit stops to recalibrate before performance breaks.
4. Hire for how, not just what:
   Make EQ visible in recruitment and development—self-awareness, social awareness, and self-regulation—so culture delivers the commercial results.

Transcript

0:00

[upbeat music] Hey, Nick, how are you? Alan, fantastic. I'm really, really well, thanks. You? Excellent. Yeah, no, I'm really good. Really good. Looking forward to, uh, this podcast. I'm talking away- I'm really excited.... I'd like to intro- like to introduce Ed Firth. Ed is sat [chuckles] probably about two hundred yards away from me, in a, in a different room. But I've known Ed for a few years now, and I know Nick knows Ed, uh, mainly through cricket, but also Ed and I bump into each other, like we did about a week ago, actually, in, in one of our local pubs. So welcome on board, Ed. Thank you, Alan. Great, great to be here. Thanks for asking me along. This is, uh, exciting. I've never done a podcast before. We love it when we get newbies. Uh, and, Ed, you're, you're pretty special because you actually make up both of our networks. You're in both of our networks, really that, uh, is overlapping that Venn diagram. So... And I'm particularly looking forward to, uh, this podcast with you, because you are what I would brand as a witty Northerner.[laughing] Yeah. If that isn't pigeonholing you too much. And as a Southerner, you know, I'm, I'm so used to being called a sh- shandy-drinking Southerner, that I love witty Northerners, Yeah, that, that's nice of you to say so. I think normally you come in, like, a bit direct, or words-[laughing]... a little [chuckles] more severe than but, hey, I'll take it. Awesome. So we'll get into it, and we ask our normal three, to begin with. So the first one, Ed, is, is how did you get into coaching, and who's your main influence in that? Second question will be, uh, have you got a metaphor for your, for your questions, um, for your coaching, sorry, and if so, what is it? We love a metaphor on this, and, and having listened to all of our podcasts now, you'll know we like our metaphors. And I guess the third one would be, do you use models? And if so, what, what sort of, like, your guiding, guiding model that you go to, or the guiding principles that you use? Yeah, okay, three questions. So, um, how I got into, um, coaching and, and development, I was... Back in 2005, I was head of learning and organisational development for WHSmith. I'm sure you've, you've heard of, uh, from the high street and, and beyond. I left there in 2005, set up a, uh, development consultancy. But rewind and going, going back into how I actually got into to sort of learning and development in the first place was, quite a common story, sort of by accident. I was a subject matter expert in a, uh, particular, uh, topic within the travel industry and, and was asked to deliver some training there. Got a real buzz from delivering the feedback and, and, and, and, and went back to, uh, to do some, uh, qualifications on in, in, in various, um, elements of, of learning and development, and sort of progressed from there. So 15 years-ish in, uh, uh, in, in L&D within the corporate world, and talent, and, and organisation development, then set up the business in 2005. So I've not really had a proper job, not had a real job since 2005. And, um, we ran a development consultancy, uh, until quite recently, uh, with a business partner, so that was Bas- Bastock Firth Limited. Uh, Nick retired back in, uh, 2019 now, just, just before COVID. Um, and now I run, um, an organisation called Ed Firth Group. So in terms of Ed Firth Group, um, got a particular metaphor, um, but I can explain, um, the, the sort of platform for, for what we deliver. Everything's very experiential, active, um, and hence why we put a huge focus on, well from a, from a one-on-one perspective. So we follow the aspect models. I think from, from a design perspective, our programs that we deliver are based on, um, Kolb's Learning Cycle, so very much about that experience. So we're very active when we're learning. We, we, we reflect, uh, and we think about what's happened. We then think about why it's happened, stage in that cognitive process is to think about, um, how we can improve for next time we take part in that activity. So I think there's... I mentioned, um, uh, this in, in relation to you. We, we talked about cricket and obviously Alan's sporting background there. It's what we often do subconsciously on uh, and we do in everyday life. Something happens, we sort of subconsciously or consciously think about what's happened, and why did that happen, and how we can improve for next time in performance. And what we do, the model that we follow as part of our, development sessions, and training sessions, we signpost that really clearly as we're going through. So we ask the participants to, to take part in activities and exercises, um, on various sort of scales and- Yeah... and, um, and levels, and then we spend some time in reflection. Our role then is to talk about some of the theory that, that might, might align to, and then challenge them in terms of, you know, what have you learnt from that experience that you can put into practice to improve your performance back in the day job. So that's sort of the platform of, of, business. Um, there's a whole host of models terms of, um, the theory side, that why side of our reflections of, of the experience and how we can improve performance. Have I answered all the questions there?[chuckles] You have. You have. You, you maybe, like a couple of our, um, other-[chuckles]... interviewees that we've had, create, uh, a metaphor as you go through today. I know that one of the last people we had- Yeah... came in and said, "Ah, I've got it. I've got a metaphor for us." So, um, it's maybe something that, that... Keep at the back of your mind, and, and, and if you think of something at the end, then, then bring it in. But yeah. Yeah, cool. Thanks, Ed, that's really interesting. Uh, we, we had a very brief chat before we started because you know we like to keep things pretty unrehearsed. And we are using you, as I explained, to recap the previous set of podcasts that we've done. So we, you know, we, we're almost in double figures now, reviewed those, Alan and I, and we've come up with a few things particularly interesting that-... the strands that crossed the other interviews, and we'd like you to unpick a couple of those, and we've, we've picked out two. So I'll start with the first one, and I'll ask you a kind of broad question. Feel free to go off piste, talk about it, how your work has informed your understanding of this around that critical thing that we keep picking up on around noise and signal. So how do we, as coaches, help people and help ourselves to dial into the signal and avoid the noise? It's a really, really relevant and pertinent question, and, and one I have, um, spent lots and lots of time in cold cycle, you know, reflecting on, on what happened a client. Why did that happen?[chuckles] And, you know, well, that route and, and, and, you know, maybe paid too much attention to the noise rather than, uh, picking up on the signals years. And, and hopefully, you know, the, uh, the learning, uh, comes into fruition when you start to really get to, uh, to grips with the real cause. So we c- we can go and start talking about Ichigo and cause and effect and stuff like this, but I think in, in, these circumstances, it's about, um, you know, doing a lot of listening, a lot of diagnostics whilst you're listening to picking up on those signals. And this is absolutely critical in terms of the return on investment for the client, because getting business is really tough, as we know. You know, there's a, there's a lot of challenges out there. We've got a real difficult social and political, economic, uh, with as well right now, and organisations are reacting to different ways. So once we've gained a client through marketing, LinkedIn activity, whatever that might be, [chuckles] all, that I'm not very, very good at, uh, but what we have to do when we're, we're wearing all those hats in our own business. Once we've got that client, it's really important that we get investment because the best clients are the repeat business clients, As, as we know, uh, because we don't have to put any work into business 'cause we've returned on their investment. We've delivered their, their learning objectives. How do we differentiate? Well, we have and, a number of diagnostics. So these can be very sort of tactical we tailor, um, you know, the learning objectives to how we, how we use these, these diagnostics, and they can be as simple as figuring out what it's like to work in, in Nick's team, for example. So well, well, Nick, Nick's a great leader. We know this. Um, you know, he's just... his team hasn't recognised that yet. Um- and Nick's coming to me saying,"The team needs team building. You know, we get 'em, get 'em in a-- get 'em outside, get some team-building activity, get some fun stuff, get the team dynamics working, preferences understood, and work through the conflict." Well, diagnostic, as we get on into the weeds, is, is more about the leadership than it is about the team dynamic or the followership. And so, you know, we've got some quite sophisticated, can use, um, and, and cherry-pick the right question to ask, it's actually like to work in Nick's team, and ideally, how the team would like it to be. And we, we map that across a number of climate Um, and those climate dimensions, again, we can select for the situation, so it might be around communication, it might be around reward and recognition, be around empowerment, it might be around w-whatever, you know, whatever it might be. And what we've found is that when Nick gets his feedback from his team, and it's like looking in the mirror, so you can't have that reaction of, "Yeah, this I lo-love this situational leadership stuff, Ed, but it's not about me. I'm, I'm, I'm really good at what I do, you know? But I understand it." But this is ac- like looking in the mirror 'cause it's direct feedback from your team. So it's not a three sixty 'cause, more about asking peers and mana... This is a one eighty, just asking your team what it's like. The, the, the great thing is, it, it really, uh, focuses the development activity because in, out of those maybe six climate dimensions, four of them, Nick might be pretty good at scoring well. Actually, and ideally, the team are saying, "Yeah, he does this communication stuff really well, um, ideally. Yeah, it's, it's ideal right now. We don't need him to change." But we can look at these two areas, around reward and rec- and recognition. It might be around the team doesn't really understand the big picture of why I do what I do. How does it fit into the wider Nick misses that bit because he understands it for himself, those more senior conversations, but we'd like to know more of that. So it gives Nick the opportunity to really put a laser focus on, on where his development gaps are. So that really helps with that return on investment because you're not, um, you know, spending time on development areas that aren't necessary because Nick hits there. Um, but it also, um, really focuses on the areas that we, we, we, we'll add a lot of value to the team. And, you know, as two coaches in the room here, um, questioning is, is all important and absolutely, um, essential, and asking the right questions to, crux of that cause and effect, of, of what's, what's the cause of, of the particular issue that the sponsor has asked for you to intervene on. Really hugely important in terms of the, training needs analysis back in the day. I seem to remember that.[chuckles] Yes, it did. [chuckles] TNA, and then they get on to designers, and then you design a session, deliver the session, evaluate it, and all that sort of stuff so- Ed, I, I like that, and there's a simplicity there I can remember interviewing in school once a, uh, a supply teacher who wanted to take a full-time job on with some particularly difficult children, and one of the questions was: a very naughty class on a Friday afternoon? And she paused, and she simply said,"I try and stand a little taller." Okay? Dead simple. Yeah. No fuss, and that simplicity really rang a bell with us, and it sounded like, uh, something that would work, and it showed that she was, you know, had good insight into her own behavior And when you say, "Use diagnostics when listening, when learning about people," but-... using questioning to get to the crux. That feel- that resonates to me like she did, that it's, it's, it's pretty st- uh, keep it simple, stupid. This is pretty, pretty basic stuff. It's complex, but if you stick to the, that kind of curiosity to find out what really is the nub of this, you've got more chance of hitting those getting that return on investment, and, and getting repeat business. Is that, is that what you're saying? Have I picked up on that? Definitely. Can, can I throw another one in, real p- practical mindset model, if you like? I'm sure you've come across it from a Maybe, maybe not, but this model of unconscious Yeah. Yep. You're familiar with? And I have that in my mind, because recognising the client might be unconscious as to the development areas, they might not have recognised the true they're seeing. So the effect might be poor performance or conflict in the team... Whatever it might be, looks like in the organisation, they might not be conscious of Compet- uh, [chuckles] I always... It's difficult using this model because incompetence is quite an emotive word, isn't it? "Oh, you're incompetent" You know, that's, say that to anybody. It needs a 2.0 version of it. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? But I, I, I use it internally because I know this model really well from back in the day, because it's like a learning ladder, isn't it?'Cause the next step is So what you're trying to do is get the client to recognise consciously where those development areas might be, that they might not have recognised. They might have been unconscious to those first place. So it's our job to probe and stimulate, and often, I guess, drop in scenarios and, and, and, and, and tough questions sometimes that challenge what they're saying in order to get them to that recognition that actually, "Oh, right, there's a development area." piece and intervention that we put in, whether it's a, a training event, learning event, one-on-one coaching, group coaching, whatever it might be, we're shifting them to that conscious competence, and need them to be in terms of the, the, um, the learning objectives for the organisation. I mean, the next step then it? Or [chuckles] conscious incompetence, where we get sort of complacent, uh, and we go too far. But that's a, that's another, another topic. Again, I think that's a really important point analysis, to, to coin that phrase- Yeah... of when it becomes unconsciously it becomes unconsciously incompetent again. Exactly. Exactly. Nudge it back in all the time. So you're in that constant loop of raising awareness, raising consciousness, making it unconscious, and creating consciousness. And using a, a cricket example of that, for me is, a, a world-class bats person, batter, nicking off to second slip. Now they've become a world-class batter and have a fabulous array of strokes, yet keep nicking off to second. They're not an incompetent batter all of a just incompetent and unconsciously incompetent of that skill at that point. Yeah. Direct feedback in sport that you get,"Well, I keep nicking off, therefore, I must be [chuckles] incompetent at that." And then how do we alleviate that, and how do we work through Brilliant, brilliant metaphor and analogy. Um, yeah, and you've obviously imparted to some of off obviously.[laughing] I'm going to take But anyway, I've got me metaphor. Here we go. Good. Okay. My metaphor is that a lot of what we do clients is around that unconscious incompetence model. Perhaps when they've got compliance, to get them to think about their conscious competence. It's a little bit like, um, yeah, I often talk to clients about getting the... getting under the bonnet or getting under the hood the US. You know, and having a look at the engine sure we got the tuning right. Because if we run a high-performance car non-stop, like a high-performance team, it will break. It will absolutely break. It'll burn out. Yeah. If we don't take it every now and then into the garage and get the mechanic to look under the hood and start fine-tuning and, and making some differences, some changes, and, and fiddling with the parts in order to improve the performance. And, and that's, that's the metaphor, keep running it, uh, it will eventually break down. So there we go. There's my metaphor. It's a bit like, um, it's quite painful taking it to a wanna charge you a few quid, you know, and there's a, there's a, a cost of resources and stuff like this. But, you know, it's important that teams and individuals do that, take a look under the hood every now You've not had that metaphor before, I hope. No. No, that's a new one. No, I love that. And it's a new one halfway through a podcast as well. So- Yeah... you're breaking all these barriers then. You're seeing insights into my brain here now kind of work, like [chuckles] no logic. I'd like to move- I'd like to move on to, to a second topic here. I think, I think you, you've given us a nice step into it. In that journey to help someone become aware they've got some unconscious incompetence, and so they can g- gain that self-awareness, w- you know, that's part of the journey of coaching for the coachees, and it... to develop that, you know, their, their, awareness of themself. And certainly, Alan and I, in the products that we provide as qualifications, see that if you want to be a coach, you need to develop your own We all need to, all the time, and it's at the heart of what we do in our delivery. So what... the question I've got for you, we have talked with other, uh, interviewees about emotional intelligence, and- Mm. For example, we've touched on the idea us, that there is a recession potentially at world. We've got some, some, some deficits in some, some areas where, uh, maybe post-COVID, uh, communication styles, and meaning that things aren't quite as good as they used to be. Uh, it's, you know, we don't think this is necessarily fact, but it's an interesting q- q- question to pose. W- where, where do you see EQ sitting with the work you do in terms of training and coaching, and-... how do you use it practically? Brilliant question again, and, and so relevant and, um, uh, the absolute bedrock, um, of everything that, that I design, deliver, uh, for, for, for clients. Because you say you've sort of not got necessarily got a lot of proof behind this, maybe this deficit in EQ out in the world Um, you know, to give- to put some facts behind it, some- is that, you know, back in the day, I'm guessing you two guys did an 11-plus. You look that, of that sort of, um- Yeah-that sort of age. [laughing] Did I just ask you? Alan, did you pass yours?[laughing] I didn't take it. I didn't take it. Um- It's okay, I took mine. We did do O levels. That's how old we are. Yeah, you did O levels, and I did... Well, the 11- well, what you got, back in the day, some research was done, IQ, intellectual intelligent quotient, w- was a, a direct predictor of, or there was a correlation between that organisations. Yeah. Okay? So the people with the highest IQs senior positions, and the most successful in businesses, so i- i- in those organisations. And so the 11-plus was an IQ test. You know, it was about reasoning, problem-solving, recalling learned information. And I'm dating myself, you know, sort of '50, '60, '70s we're talking here. So I take the work of Daniel Goleman and his model, um, you know, and his, that, his, his book, um, that I'd recommend to anybody, you know, um, u- u- on emotional intelligence, which is, um, what is sort of emotional intelligence, and why it can be more important than IQ. So why is EQ [chuckles] more important than IQ?'Cause in today's world, you know, there's some, a lot of research and, and, um, and, and evidence that demonstrating high levels of emotional intelligence in an organisation is what now equals success. So the people that earn the most money, most inspirational leaders, the best influencers, the best leaders, inspirational leaders, the best coaches even, demonstrate high levels of emotional intelligence. And I, I always use the word demonstrate, because I think there's people that might possess a high level of emotional intelligence, it in the climate or the culture that they operate in, which is a, another issue,'cause then we're looking at than individual development. Is it- That's why I start with EQ, that it is attributable... There's the benefits of it, if you like,'cause it's really attributable to success. Is it demonstrate or is it interpret? Is... Can... Is, is there a, a, a subtlety around demonstrating EQ- Mm-hmm... interpreting our own- Mm-and others' EQ as well? A- absolutely. So, so Goleman's model, it, it, it starts with self-awareness. So the more I understand myself in terms of my personality preference and the breadth and scope and depth of that, the more I understand what my external Um, so Eric Berne's sort of, you know, transaction analysis, uh, parent, adult, and ego states, and, and, and maybe might- you might prefer sort of DISC or Insights or, um, you know, Myers-Briggs- Spotlight. Yeah, Spotlight, of course. Yeah, absolutely. Any of those, the, the read your horoscope, whatever. If it's going to trigger- [laughing] If it's g- you know, i- if it's going to trigger you to think about and reflect on what your drivers are, what your motivators are, outside world, how you live your life, how you like to make your decisions. Is it logical? Is it, is it empathy that, that's your key driver? How do you like to take in information? Are you a conceptual thinker? Are you a logical thinker? Are you a person planned for the future, or do you like to be sort of a energized by the last-minute rush type of person? There's, there's so many facets, and I joke about the horoscope. Um, you know, a lot of the questionnaires Spotlight, and, and MBTI are really, really high va- uh, they've got really high, uh, validity scores, which means accurate, you know, as well. So there are huge benefits to that individual. But Alan makes a great point in terms of is it demonstration, interpretation? Because that's... It's no good being self-aware without awareness, so embracing that diversity in others. So we recognize, "Oh, that person's more conceptual, logical thinker," or,"That person prefers last-minute rush, plan..." W- whatever it might be in terms of perhaps where your conflict norming might be. So if we're talking team dynamics and building a, um, you know, a, a, a strong team, where's the, um, emotional intelligence in terms of self-awareness and then social awareness? And the linchpin then, Alan, I think at that point, is your self-regulation. Yeah. Yeah. So how far do I push my, my, um, preferences here, and my, um, um, um, um, belief and, and, and vision for the team? And how much do I listen and embrace that diversity of that dynamic within the team, so we get to a place where all the relationships in the team are being managed really well? And that's your perfect scenario, isn't it? So everybody's self-aware, everybody's socially aware of each other, self-regulates appropriately to get to that, um, that, uh, great relationships. And h- and that just equates to high performance in isn't it? But this isn't that pseudo, um, acceptance, and, uh, uh, of everybody, that we, we all sort of smile, agree, room, in the meeting room, then we're off down the corridor going, work," you know?[laughing] "I told them before it was..." uh, "We tried this years ago." Um, but it's got to be genuine commitment, um, a- and, and good open and honest, passionate debate to get to that genuine commitment to whatever work And, and if we do that, we, we, we hold ourselves acount- accountable. And I... This, this begs the question now, here. Yeah. I did a qualification when I was working in the civil service, management- Mm... qualification. Uh, it was only a two- or three-day thing, and one of the main reasons, uh, projects fail is communication. Mm-hmm. Or they get delayed, or they don't deliver. Mm. And yet, the only time spent on EQ was a very, very short bit of input about storming, performing teams. Very, very brief.... it wasn't skills-based. Yeah. It was just, here's a bit of theory about what teams stages. So it, this begs the question that if this is so important, if this is now the thing that makes teams perform, and perform highly, are, are we seeing training a- across the board, imp- adopting an EQ kind of foundation? Because you us- you say it's your bedrock. Are we seeing- Mm. I think so. I think, um, certainly in the work that I, that I do, uh, is it always overt, or is it just part of my sort of processes Am I articulating this is about emotional intelligence? It depends on the client, and how receptive they would be to a very, um, sort of model-based, academic approach and theoretical side. Um, and, and, and, or whether it's about, um, you know, we're gonna deliver results, and here's the vision for the program, are your outputs. So again, that's me trying to impart my emotional intelligence on the process by being self-aware, what my preference is [chuckles] of how I pitch it, but recognizing, just being socially aware, and recognizing where that individual or, or group preference for that balance of, of the theory and reflection, and the action, and the pragmatic stuff, into place in order to improve results. So is, is it sort of on the tip of everybody's topic? No, I don't, I don't think so at all. I think once you start to articulate and, and make a link to practical scenarios for clients, and then you can frame it around emotional intelligence, it- we're all human, we all interact in that way. It's, it's important to all of us, and, and, resonates because it, it is about true practical human interactions. You know, we, we don't do the process stuff. We're not experts in, in construction, in automotive, in, in public sector, whatever the- wherever we're working at the time. We're, we're experts in, in, in people, and, and how we can maximize the potential of an individual or a team. Um, so, you know, that, that's, that's the bit that we focus on, to, to that self-awareness and, and social awareness. Okay. I'm, I'm an optimist, and, and I, I like some of these interviews to get through to some optimism. Sure. Given, for example, that in any given week you might be results coming out. I wouldn't want to make this particular any space of time, Alan. But just imagine results coming out at the moment. Yeah. I would say, as a 30 years in education, I would say that there's not a lot of EQ still in our national system of testing. It's all IQ. It is 99% IQ. Yeah. So that hasn't changed. Okay. But our... Try and get- so that's not optimistic at all, But the, the, the delivery of it might be more EQ-based actual t- assessment of it is still IQ. So you're, you're saying it's not on the tip of seeing a shift? Are you seeing a move towards EQ from IQ, even if it's a bit of a glacial shift? Give me some- I, I think- Give me some optimism, please. I th- I think you're right, and I think, um, it, it's important to be optimistic. There's some stuff around self-awareness for that. We, we might get it to if we've got time. But I, what I'm seeing is a shift in, um, recruitment in that area. So I, I don't necessarily focus a lot with recruitment, but I often am working with HR teams, and, talent managers within organizations,'cause that's where the- the development, topic often sits. And, you know, recruiting to the competency framework, absolutely,'cause we need people to hit the ground running to be able to do the job. But no more behavioral indicators. Not necessarily around the behavioral indicators, around commercial awareness, communication skills, or whatever the competencies might be, linked to and aligned to the values, and, and, and, and, and vision of how this business wants to move forward. Not what it does, but how it goes about it, be- correlation between how and what. I- if we understand how we're doing things, this way, we'll achieve the what, because we'll be hugely successful as a performing team. Um, I'm working with a global, um, business right now, which has got a huge footprint in the UK, and we're recruiting for, um, so a head of, uh, HR, HR director, um, supporting that with some, um, analysis and some diagnostics of, of, of, um, uh, behavioral indicators. You know, so how do people perform under pressure? How do people perform when, when everything's going well? How do people perform when they've got conflict in the team? This type, this type of thing. So how they deal with it, not, You know, we're gonna assume somebody's coming for a job, that they can- they can do the stuff in terms of the task We've got to measure that, but much more focused on that. So yeah, that, that's more of a measure of getting people Are we doing it enough in, in, in, in development interventions? There's not enough development You know, we need to do more of this. We need to invest more time in, in, in, in, in getting... Providing we can demonstrate that return on investment, and that's, key. You know, we need to be articulating that there's, for it, and it's not just a tick in the box, should be doing because it's on the list of o- objectives. It's something that we need to do in order to improve the performance of the business. I think that's a really interesting point, and you trawl through job adverts, and job adverts are all based around essentials, and the first thing on essential qualification, or a certification- Yeah... or you've got to have this, or you've got to have that, this experience or that experience. Even in the desired, it doesn't come around to, you need to show strong emotional intelligence within a job, or be able to work within, within or, or, or be, uh, adjustable within a team, or adaptive, or ado- or adopt new working frameworks. Or actually, we're gonna give you... Can you work in a place that gives you freedom to go and express yourself as an individual? And I think it's really interesting that we sit here and we say-... EQ rather than IQ. We sit here as three coaches and, and team developers of let's think about that don't normally get thought about and, and grow things that way. Yet, getting your foot through the front door is t- a tick, still a tick-in-the-box exercise. So how do you think companies or individuals or head of HRs or directors of can influence that moving forward? That we recruit people with high EQ, and then we can mould them through coaching or through teamwork or team development into what the company needs? Yeah, it's a good, it's a good question because what, what's happened since COVID, and, you know, I keep talking a lot in, in pre- and post-COVID terms. But, you know, maybe the EQ agenda shrunk a little bit because most of my clients are asking for help and support on change, so it's a lot on how we lead change the transitions and the transformation within organisations were huge. Uh, so we focused a lot on, and still do right now, you know, how we're getting people through, through, um, you know, sort of dynamic change and, um, EQ is obviously, um, a, a, a, a great solution for that in terms of, um, that self-awareness and social awareness and, and driving the team forward through Um, but how we can create the conditions, I think, is the question that, that we should be asking leaders. Because we can recruit them in, but we are still delivering way more than we were five years ago with less people, potentially. I always ask that question to clients,"Put your hand up if you're delivering with less people [chuckles] now than you were five, 10 years ago." So that therefore means, the logic brain tells me get more discretionary effort, um, of people going that extra mile in my team in order to hit the goals and targets that I'm now, now challenged to achieve with less people. So there's a little bit of a sell there, isn't there, for all of us in this profession, that, that we create the, the need, if you like. We, we, we sort of identify the pain for the to get them to the solution but actually, you know, creating the conditions to allow people to flourish with, um, you know, a demonstration of, um, embracing that diversity of personality preference and, and skills and abilities in the team will, will, will help us get to, uh, achieving that, that performance we need to. I, I need to try and draw us together 'cause Okay... the time has gone. It's flown by. So- Wow... I, you know, I'll try and do a teacher's recap, and- No problem... I always try to selfishly see what I can interviewees say that I can take forward. So either go and read about or just to stick in my mind to help kind of good, good things. Firstly, yeah, I do feel there is reason for optimism if HR are starting to, uh, embrace more EQ. Because once they recruit, of course, you know, those people are gonna be passing it on down the line. So that, that does give me a sense of optimism, could have been released today or on any given week, if they're IQ-based, then, then obviously not much in that model. So that does give me some optimism. Tha- thank you. You clearly do know what you're talking about. You ... We put you in that bracket, Ed. You know what you're talking about, such a breadth of experience. Oh, knowing what you're ta- for the, for the, for the, for the listeners, but not everyone does.[chuckles] You could be unconscious, incompetent or- [laughing] ... or somewhere on that learning model. Especially on a Wednesday night playing for strollers. I was gonna say, uh, yeah, the cricket field, hold on.[clears throat] [chuckles] But I like, I like the simplicity of sticking to Kolb, Kolb, but stick to the basics- Yeah... and that, that really simple,"Let's question curiously to get to the crux, so we really can avoid the noise," that's simple way of saying it. And, and hearing that phrase, you know, that, put, uh, EQ in the bedrock of the work in your delivery, in your training, that's a, a, a great reminder. Uh, and, and I'm gonna be tutoring some new that being one of my first slides. Can we all improve our self-assess- our self-awareness? Can we all improve our self-awareness to us to put EQ in at the bedrock of all the work we do with our coachees? 'Cause it... That's a, that's a real recipe for success. So, Ed, thank you so much, 'cause you, you, you've really shown that you, that you, that you can boil all these complex things things, and that's the, that's the, the nub, isn't it, of, of training or coaching, that, that we can make the complex simple. My, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me along. Uh, hope I've added some, some value somewhere. Ed, from me as well, thank you very, very much. Really appreciated it. I've already got a title for the podcast mind I won't share yet, but-[laughing]... it's, um, it's kind of come out of the ether through that last 40-odd minutes. Yeah. But brilliant- Lovely... yeah, thanks for your thoughts. It's been fantastic, it really has. And how was it for you, Ed, being your first one? Really good, really enjoyed that. The time's flown by. I've got loads of other things I want to say, but, uh, maybe invite me back, we'll do- Lovely... let's do it again. I'm sure we will. I'm sure we will. All right, take care, everybody- Take care... and, um, we will see you down the line. Thanks. Thanks, Ed. Cheers.[upbeat music]