Episode 10 - Anita Patel - All Flowers can Bloom

In this episode, we sit down with Anita Patel, a leading voice in neuro-inclusion and intersectionality. Together, we dive into what it really takes to create environments where individuals can thrive on their own terms.
Anita brings a rare blend of expertise, lived experience, and practical wisdom — offering a powerful lens into the world of neurodivergence and how we can better support, understand, and empower the people we work with.

Transcript

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[upbeat music] Good morning. Oh, sorry, I can't say that.[laughing] Hello! Hi, Alan. Hey, Nick. How are you? I've blown it already, haven't I? You have. As always. I'm not going to mention Halloween, bats, pumpkins, ghosts, anything like that,'cause you'll have to edit it out, so I do apologize. Yeah. Well- Or rein- or reindeer or... Reindeer?[chuckles] Coming up soon. Just get it all out. Just get it all out now-[laughing]... before we start. [chuckles] Hello, Anita. Welcome to you as well. Hello, Nick and Alan. It's lovely to be here, and thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to this Fantastic. We hadn't started very well. Hopefully, it's gonna get better. So, Alan, how are you since the last time we Yeah, good, busy. Um, setting up Coaching Loop and, and doing a couple more of these in our, um, podcast bank. So yeah, we're all good. All good. It's really lovely to introduce Anita here. She's, uh, gonna be our expert on neurodiversity in that me and Alan have been keen to get, uh, into our noggins for some time now. I have to apologize to Anita, uh, and she doesn't mind me talking about her neurodiversity, she's very open about it, but I didn't actually, 'cause I was so rushed, give her enough time to plan for this session [chuckles] and we had to then go, "Sorry about that." Yet, people who are neurodiverse sometimes need a bit more planning time, so how ironic is that? But have I learnt from it? Very much. Well, yeah, absolutely. And do you know, I think, actually, this has really allowed me to lean into the ADHD part of me, because I am AuDHD. I received a diagnosis of autism and ADHD a few years ago. Um, and what I'm finding is that being more spontaneous and not planning as much is allowing me to work with the ADHD parts of me that actually quite thrive on something that isn't very structured and formatted, and the autistic part of me needs that. So I think, for me, it's, it's- it'll be really interesting to see what when we're just going with the flow. Fantastic. Thank you for being so open and, uh, of, of my miscommunication. So I wanna start off with, uh, just a few thoughts around school and neurodiversity, having been in education for a long time. I think it's not positive in many ways. I think that education is a bit narrow. It's a little bit too constrained around reading and writing, and sat in rows in desks, hasn't changed for 200 years. Blahdy, blahdy, blah... I don't want to labor that point too much with all my grunting and groaning at what I'm saying, but it's true, and I think one of the- one of the populations that struggle with that are people neurodiverse and special needs. And that cultural bias against the normal student, which is just ridiculous, 'cause there students, it still pervades, and I think that there are a lot of stereotypes and caricatures around what ADHD might m- mean. I think that the fact, the fact that adults can't get diagnosed very easily, and I think that there's that stigma around it, there's a lot of negativity. I... W- what's your feeling on that, Anita? Have I been too negative? No, because I think, actually, some sort of negativity leads to action. I think we have to be realistic and see what the flaws are, the way in which the system needs to change so that we can actually have better outcomes for our children going forwards. And I think being a fellow teacher, um, a lot of that does resonate in terms of how classrooms and the curriculum essentially are designed for- with a one-size-fits-all approach. And if you do think a little bit differently, if you do perhaps process and receive information in a different manner, and then, as a result, you, you have certain ideas of what you think is problem-solving, creativity, et cetera, which more often than not, is seen as being disruptive or deviant. And so I think if we can get it right from the beginning and be more proactive rather than reactive with what we introduce from a very young age and then into workplaces, we can see that consistent message following through, so people can work at their best rather than simply coping. Thank you. Uh, really, I, I think I've skipped a step in our because I was so excited to talk about education that I didn't give you a chance to introduce yourself. And you know Alan and I love a metaphor. We did talk about that beforehand. So can you tell us a bit about who you are, how you got to where you are, and what gets you out of bed in the And you have a lovely metaphor around a flower that I would love to hear more about. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Um, yeah, I mean, I come from an education background, so I was a teacher for nearly 20 years and really got to see firsthand where the journey begins for neurodivergent individuals. And m- on top of that, I'm also a parent and carer to two neurodivergent teenagers. So initially, when I decided to start my own business, which was a few years ago, so I left the kind of the classroom environment to set up a coaching business, and I started off coaching and mentoring neurodivergent young people and families because, of course, I was able to bring that direct experience into our sessions, and then I discovered my own neurodivergence amongst all of that, so I was able to bring the lived experience in. However, that soon turned to-... working not just on a one-to-one basis, but with teams and organizations, and really trying to think about what neuroinclusion looks like, but very much through an intersectional lens. So that's a real passion of mine, seeing the diversity within neurodiversity and all of those intersecting identities, how that experiences, how we show up, and, for example, our access to support. That's lovely. That, that idea of the diversity within the diversity is lovely, and that, that resonates with the, the phrase that I, I came across in education increasingly before I left, which was,"We're all on the spectrum." And that, that I, I, I like the idea that there is no normal, that wh- whatever way you, you, you wanna sort people or, or, or filter people, we're all so different. So it'd be interesting to hear how that diversity within diversity and the intersectionality of it, is that the, the word? How that plays out in a coaching environment. But I think Alan was very keen to jump in. He, he hasn't spoken yet. And can I also... I do need to mention something about being because all of us being on the spectrum, because that can be triggering for certain people, so we're gonna have to address that, nice way, bring in something, because I think that's a real thing, a real trigger point for, um, neurodivergent people in the community. So we can, we can- I can give a response in a certain way that kind of then lends itself to, you know, this is how we could potentially look at it. So, um, I'd love to respond to that. Um, and also what you said about, um, the flower thing, I'd love to mention a bit around that as well. But, Alan, please come in. No, all, all it was, was, was really around you'd got so far in your life without having a diagnosis. Yes. Were you aware, or what was the, what was the catalyst to go get a diagnosis? And then how did that influence you? I'm gonna use the word influence rather change or, or challenge, or whatever. But how did that influence you in your thought process after that diagnosis? Yeah, I think that's actually a, a really good question, and, and something that I come back to on a frequent basis. Because I often say to people, "Yes, you know, you may obtain a formal diagnosis, um, you may not, because of various barriers to receiving one." Um, and they could be numerous. It could be the waiting list on the NHS, whether you're able to, um, pay for something privately, the kind of barriers you face in your community to obtaining a diagnosis. And so, for me, I managed to kind of get one for myself because I think I was armed with a lot of what I needed and what I was seeing, to then be absolutely sure that it was the right thing for me. I think I would've second-guessed myself seen what I'd seen, which was essentially going through a chemical menopause as a result of breast cancer treatment. So I had a breast cancer diagnosis six years ago, and then I was put into an overnight chemical menopause due to the treatment that I was on, and that made it incredibly difficult to mask my neurodivergence. Okay. So it became very apparent that I was experiencing certain things from being autistic, uh, having ADHD, particularly in the classroom environment. So on a sensory level and, you know, the executive functioning side, becoming really challenging for me. So I had a lot of, a lot of kind of evidence, I suppose, um, to be able to kind of take to the assessment of examples, you know, things that I do- I was actually struggling with. Whereas, had I tried to go for that maybe 20 or 30 years ago, yes, it would've helped in some ways for me to navigate certain situations in my life- Uh-huh... but I'm not sure if I would've maybe had enough to be able to share, because I was masking a lot. Okay. That's, that's really interesting, and I guess there's an awful lot... And I know we're desperate to get onto the metaphor. I guess there's an awful lot of people who, using the word mask, to make up for something that's underlying, that they're probably aware of, but not openly, and can't explain, will cope. I don't know whether that's the right mask through their coping in certain situations. Either put themselves forward or not, or standing back, or however it manifests itself for them, they will mask based on, I guess, their learnt experience as well of what they can do, what they can't do, what they can get away with within their or school environment or home life. And we get to that point where your coping mechanism or your masking kind of counteracts certain areas. It's... I, I just find it fascinating that, that certain people can get to certain in their life and mask because they innately know they have to. Whereas, I think, and again, you talked about 20, 30 years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation at 20, 30 years ago. We wouldn't dare raise the, the, the M word within this as well. Um, so I think culture and, and societies moved on so far that we're quite open to discussing this, for starters. Um-... then we're bringing words in like masking, we're bringing other words in. And, and I just find it absolutely fascinating how we've moved as society. People still mask, still do certain things certain ways to- so they don't have to raise their other people's awareness of, of who they are innately. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And some form of masking is okay. You know, it- I think it would be unrealistic to expect someone to completely unmask in all situations when they've had years of having to adapt to, for example, a neurotypical world. You know, if you are neurodivergent, you develop certain ways of fitting in and belonging. Um, and some elements of masking where you are showing up for something, and you are, in inverted commas, "making it work," because that's, you know, that's your job, for example, job description, and there are some things you may just have to do. But you can ask for reasonable adjustments. You can start to disclose a little bit more if there is, for example, psychological safety, and you can start to unravel certain parts that actually would be helpful, um, for, for you to be able to thrive. Um, but I think continuous masking and suppression of neurodivergence over consecutive years does lead to co-occurring mental health challenges, and that definitely happened for me. So I, I would say that my mental health and wellbeing was significantly impacted by having to constantly mask about everything. So not just in my job, but for example, in the home environment

and saying: 14:03

"You know what? Everything's fine. Everything's fine. Everything's okay. I can do this. I can be the, the mum that juggles everything, the, the, the wife. You know, I, I go out and work, and I can kind of... You know, everything's possible." But actually, now, with this new understanding, I can start to advocate for myself a little bit more, and I would say my wellbeing is positively impacted because of that, and, and that's another reason why a lot of adults are misdiagnosed. So they may present as having social anxiety, depression, for example, but actually, there's this underlying neurodivergence that's being missed. That's really interesting, Anita, and it, it fits really clearly, doesn't it, with the ideas of incongruence in psychology, that if there's something in there that is clunky and doesn't fit, it won't serve you well in, in the long term, and... Can you please tell us about your flower?[chuckles] Absolutely. So one of my favorite quotes when it comes to thinking about neuroinclusion is, "When a flower doesn't bloom, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower." And I often use this analogy because if we think of a flower and simply giving it the kind of basics of what it needs to be able to grow, you know, that's the kind of baseline of neuroinclusion that everybody should have, you know, practice. But actually, for that flower to bloom and really thrive, you can add some additional things, and, you know, that, for me, is, is really the ideal place to be, where you're not simply... Used the word coping earlier, and I think many neurodivergent people feel that that is their default way. They are managing to survive and cope in a world that wasn't designed for them. But I also see individuals who are absolutely excelling their potential because not only do they have that baseline there, but they have these additional things that are put into place with regards to, for example, their environment, because environment is so important for neurodivergent people. You know, if you make certain adaptations there, incredible what that can do. Um, so f- for me, it's very much that, that metaphor of this flower blooming with everything else around it to kind of allow for that, um, whereas if it doesn't get the basics of what it needs, it will wilt, and it will eventually kind of, you know, in a more extreme way, will die. You know, it will no longer be kind of able to do do. So, so yeah, that, that definitely is my go-to quote for lots of things. And I guess you mentioned the environment there as well, and, and a flower growing in western Wales as opposed to a flower growing in eastern Anglia needs different things because the en- the, the host environment is different. That it might be the pH in the soil, it might be the acidity in the rain, it might be the amount of wind or the, the, the ambient temperature all year. So all those things, even though it's the same plant, still needs completely different care depending on where it is. Absolutely, and that actually leads really nicely to something that, um, would be really great to share, which between neurodiverse and neurodivergent. So we are all neurodiverse. Neurodiversity exists everywhere, and so all of us can benefit from a baseline approach to allow for different thinking styles, for example. But if we are being neuroinclusive, we are thinking about the 20%, likely more, of the population who are neurodivergent and will need a particular-... level of understanding, a certain kind of approach to be able to work at their best. And so, yeah, I think, you know, we are all, we are all absolutely flowers who can grow with the right things around us. But as you, as you-- I love that sort of analogy around the soil, Alan. You know, that actually neurodivergent individuals may need a completely different sort of, um, baseline soil environment, and then everything around them. And by that, I mean reasonable adjustments, different if you are amongst that twenty or more percent. You know, your, what you need to be able to thrive will require a different level of understanding, and that's why neuroinclusion training important. In fact, i- in my opinion, it should be mandatory everywhere. One hundred percent agree with that. And, and what I'm hoping to get from you today on my understanding and add some nuance, because having been a teacher with thirty children with a curriculum or, or a syllabus, to become a coach, the freedom to personalise is just wonderful. It isn't one size fits all. However, of course, if you have coaching approaches, they, uh, might end up being a clunky, clumsy, one-size-fits-all themselves, couldn't they? So what I'm interested in getting from you, and, and I've got an example from my own practice that I'd like you to reflect on, is a bit more nuance around that. So I've got my first adult diagnosed autistic coachee, who I've been working with, and when I started working with them, the first thing that happened was they had some doubt about whether it would be effective based on some bad experiences. And I said, "Well, from my point of view, as an ex-teacher, to think that I'm used to a diverse range of people, and no one's normal." I think that was a good starting point. And then I said:

said: 20:21

"Just two things. One, my emotional regulation is not that good sometimes, so I'd like a bit of time if I am thinking or saying or behaving in a way to unpick it a bit and I love the whole CBC approach, so for me, that was a, an easy win. Low-hanging fruit, really. And they said: "And can I have forty-five-minute sessions? Because after that, cliff." So I was able to take both of those two things on and, and em- employ them, and, and I, I think it's been really, really effective. And the th- the thing that happened that we hadn't planned for, that was even more effective, was I always send an email after every session, confidential summary of session, and I just say, "Nice to see you. I thought you engaged really well. We talked about so and so, and you, you thought you might do so and so between now and the next time." And it was just a few, points, really, and I keep it simple just to make life

The feedback from the coachee was: 21:18

"Wow, never had that before from my sessions," and they have had coaching before."That was so simple, and it has made it such an easy framework remember." And it made me think, "Wow, don't all coaches do that?" 'Cause if they don't, that's not very [chuckles] professional,'cause that's an easy thing to do, all coaches should be doing, but clearly they're not. So what other nuance is there to go in my top tips of how to look after my work when I'm working with people who are neu- neurodivergent? Yeah, absolutely. And what you've described there, Nick, is, um, a really, really important part of neurodivergent individuals, you know, their experiences. Emotional regulation has a huge impact on everything else, and so helping with levels of regulation, whatever that looks like, and learning to spot the signs, can make a massive difference. So, you know, as we said earlier, being proactive rather than reactive when that person is fully dysregulated, for example, and won't be able to work at their best. So learning how to spot those signs by work- you know, working together closely and i- imagining what good emotional regulation looks like and the opposite. Um, and what you've described about kind of up after sessions, a lot of coaches are taught in a very traditional sense. A lot of the models are more conducive to, for example, a neurotypical way of working. Um, so for instance, it may be s- suggested that, you know, as a, as a coach, you shouldn't be sending things after the session because the person needs to be in control and needs to be taking lots of notes. That's not always appropriate. If you are working with a neurodivergent individual, they may be taking a bit of time to process. They may not be able to write everything down. They may want to have sort of bullet points or a summary afterwards, which is absolutely fine. Um, and, you know, with their permission, we can build in the scaffolding between coaching sessions to allow them to have that clarity. Um, and in addition to what you've described about the emotional regulation, there's energy accounting, which is absolutely huge. For neurodivergent individuals, to be able to account for fluctuations in energy levels can be, can be really helpful. So I use a withdrawals and deposits approach. So we talk about how many withdrawals have taken place, how many deposits have been injected, there an imbalance, and has that imbalance then caused a ripple effect for the coming weeks and months? Um, so yeah, absolutely there's, there's really-- there is a lot doing when we think of good practice, but also there is a lot of training around, um, and I, and I run some currently for coaches specifically. I really encourage people to get CPD-... as a kind of bolt on to their additional coaching qualifications, so that they can see different ways of working. So, for example, if you are working with a client who has ADHD, and you n- are not aware of RSD as a coach, that's absolutely huge! Because RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria, will be absolutely impacting that individual in some shape or form. So when you undergo training along these lines, you have that informed practice. And going back to what we said earlier intersectionality, that adds a further dimension. Because, for example, I am a South Asian neurodivergent woman who is also recovering from breast cancer. Those multiple intersecting identities will absolutely require a different kind of approach, which is why I constantly advocate for bringing that kind of intersectional understanding into everything that we do. I think, Anita, that, that's absolutely amazing, and I'm feeling that we've got chapters two, three, four, and five coming up for this podcast with you in, in the [chuckles] coming months.[chuckles] Yeah. And interestingly, Nick and I, when we set up Coaching Loop, which is obviously this podcast is part of that, one of the critical USPs we put in there was individualization. What we wanted to do was structure qualifications, so it was based around the individual. And I think you've just alluded to that beautifully in terms of almost put it on, onto the coachee or put it onto the, the person doing the qua- How do you want us to be during this How do you want us to be during that coaching? And it's something Nick and I talked quite a bit about on previous

of maybe the first question: 26:33

How have you arrived today? How have you turned up today? What is it you want from us today in terms of structure, in terms of time, in terms of energy levels, in terms of the... However that manifests itself for that person. They then get to kind of top-end run the session, and then you just become the facilitator coach. You, you're... You know, "I, I haven't got space for models today," or, haven't got time to really, really, really drill down into stuff. Don't ever ask me five whys today, because I don't have capacity for it." I think it's a wonderful thing that, that everybody can learn from in terms of how do you want that to do? That's really interesting one-to-one.

My interest would also be: 27:19

How do you do that one to group? Yeah, absolutely. So when working with teams, I always talk about having a good baseline. Before we've even started anything, what kind of approach are we taking here? Is it open? Is it neuroinclusive? Does it take into account different and thinking styles, or is it rigid and very structured and prescriptive? And actually, is the criteria we're using for measuring good performance, is it based on neurotypical standards? So you know, for example, this team is giving lots of eye contact and thinking on the spot and engaging really well. Um, well, you know, that's okay, but is it also catering for a few team members who maybe don't have a response immediately on the spot, and maybe don't maintain eye contact whole duration? But later, when they've had time to reflect, their problem-solving will be way beyond what you could imagine. You know, their creativity and innovation, if given the space and time, are not deemed to be underperforming. Because, for example, their performance management criteria is, based on, you know, these very dated kind of standards and expectations. And then on a physical level, have you considered your lighting? Have you considered the kind of noise regulation? Have you considered the, the, the smells and all of those things that can potentially be quite triggering for a neurodivergent individual? So interestingly, I was working with an, organization, and this is what I love when I go back. It's not just a tick box exercise, where you've done something during Neurodiversity Celebration Week, and then that's it for the rest of the year. So this particular organization, I, I, I worked with them for sort of three or four sessions, and a lot of what we were doing together was then informing a new building that they were actually...

That they had plans for. So they said: 29:35

"Well, hang on a sec. Why don't we have different lighting? Why don't we have certain kind of quiet spaces zoned out that actually look very different, um, and that actually, uh, don't have to be fully open plan? We can have a, a bit of a kind of a mix." Um, so lighting is always the thing I talk about a lot because spotlights can be quite triggering for neurodivergent individuals. So in our house, we have side lights everywhere. Spotlights are banned.[chuckles] So you know, start to think about the, the, the changes you can make in terms of your working practices, but also the surroundings, your environments, and you know, how conducive they are. I was just about to say, it comes back to environment again, Yes. In terms of what environment do we want people to or flowers to grow in? When we have that curious and compassionate approach, and as you say, a growth mindset. Because I mentioned earlier about people who receive-... a, a formal diagnosis, for example, for their neurodivergence. I always say that's not the end point, because after that, you're constantly learning, you're seeing everything through a new and you are, you're just kind of-- you're exploring what life looks like with this understanding. So it's a journey. It's a journey of discovery, we do as coaches as well. We're never going to get it perfectly "right," in inverted commas. The neurodiversity movement as a whole is evolving constantly, so we're trying to move away from deficit, pathologized models and approaches, but that's going to take time. And I think it's really important we go out and find out what we need to find out about, especially from people who have both professional and lived experience. Because when I talk about RSD, for example, I've lived that. I, I've kind of-- I've experienced what it's done to my life on so many levels, and so, you know, you can contextualize a lot of what you're sharing. And going back to what you said about, some people sometimes say,"We're all on the spectrum," you know, everyone's a bit, sort of, so to speak. To an extent, yes, we are-- we all think differently, so we are, as I mentioned earlier, we are all neurodiverse, but we're not all neurodivergent. And so the distinction that's created there, where we say that actually that twenty percent likely to be a bit more, because if we take into account people who don't have a formal diagnosis, people who don't make disclosures, et cetera. As you mentioned, it's, you know, it's likely to be more than a fifth, which is a significant amount. Neurodivergent people like to kind of hear that they are understood differently. They're not all put into the same category, that actually someone's willing to provide that bespoke support above and beyond, and something that actually is very much catered to their needs, so that they can perform their best or, hopefully, excel at what they're, yeah, what they're capable of. Um, so I think it's really important that we consider language, we consider that we are being as neuro-inclusive as possible, and that we check our clients' preferences. So, for example, one of the things to add to that co-- toolkit that you mentioned is, from the very beginning, during those initial conversations with clients, we identify accessibility requirements, but also language preferences. So, for example, some may like to use identity-first language. Some may say, "I am autistic with ADHD." Some people may say, "I have autism or ADHD." Some people may identify as being disabled if they are neurodivergent. Some people choose not to use that term because they believe that they are disabled by society. And so checking those preferences early on, and what you mentioned about sort of, um, a, having that individualized approach is absolutely key. One extra thing I would suggest is maybe using the right kind of questions as well, because if you, for example, ask,"What support do you need?" That person may not be able to answer that because they've had many, many years of not having to advocate for their needs, not being able to, you know, not, not feeling safe to do so. So a question could be rephrased.

It could be: 34:28

"How best can I support you?" Rather than,"What support do you need?" And as you mentioned, sometimes continuous why questions or continuous curious questions, that might not work for a neurodivergent individual. They may need to have an example some kind of reference point, some kind of, um, something that they can actually really believe that's not abstract. So, for example, some autistic people may struggle with a, a visual sort of metaphor or simile, whereas ADHDers might be absolutely fine to do that. So we've got to kind of understand what that neurotype looks and feels like, and, you know, does that person want something to complement the verbal information? Do they want something dropped into the chat pane if it's an online coaching session? Do they want an infographic? Do they want to be able to do voice notes instead of really, you know, long paragraphs regarding something? So checking those preferences early on can make such a difference. But bearing in mind that that person may not have all of the answers in terms of what they need, so we may need to draw on what we goes back to the CPD side. If you are undergoing training and you know that typically neurodivergent people can have-- whilst everyone's very different, commonalities. So, for example, we mentioned emotional regulation, energy accounting, another one, sensory regulation. So that is really key to understand, um, sort of what the differences are. So some neurodivergent people are sensory seeking, and some are sensory avoiding. So again, it avoids making those assumptions that all neurodivergent people will want to block everything out. That's not entirely true. Some actually actively seek out things on a sensory level because it gives them what they need. It's fulfilling. So again, checking those sorts of commonalities that you can bring in and say, "Actually, can you tell me more about this? You know, what, what are your things with this specifically?" Rather than a very open question, it kind of gives them that framework. Anita, thank you so much. I-[laughing] I was just about to say, Nick, my head is exploding already.... This is not the, this is not the, I don't think- I really, lot, but I don't think this is the end of our work together, Anita.[chuckles] This has asked me to challenge myself to be better, which is what Alan and I wanted to do this for, listening will feel the same. I've, I've put more notes on my page than, than in any other session, and I, I will shut this call down and then go onto the internet and start to buy books gonna help me go down some rabbit holes. So thank you so much. Not only have you brought that expertise, but you told me off so beautifully.[chuckles] I've never been told off so[laughing] And, and you've also explained things in real can I thank you for being such a, a great interviewee? I've really got so much out of that, selfishly. Yeah, I'll echo all of that, Anita. That was just huge. Um, a- and I think the thing I'll take away from it most is we put on our USP to individualize stuff, and you've just articulated there is individualization, and then there is individualization. The assumptions I think we make, and it's probably something learned assumptions over the years, that, that we've been kind of, um, put onto us in terms of assumptions of, of neurodiversity rather than neurodivergence. I'm just gonna, as of tomorrow, start relationships slightly differently and build those relationships differently. So I, I can't thank you enough. Well, I just wanna say thank you both. Um, and, and actually, that was a wonderful example to add to my evidence bank of being completely spontaneous with-[laughing]... no notes, um, no idea of necessarily what's coming in immediate sense. Nor do we. [laughing] Uh, absolutely. And do you know, it was, it was highly enjoyable, and as you say, it will have a ripple effect in terms of further things we could talk about and explore, um, which ultimately will benefit our clients and the people around us, our loved ones as well. So I always say this, when I'm delivering these sessions, people start to think about their own sort of family members, friends, people that they might want to kind of, you know, understand better, and they might want to sort of be able to different set of questions, um, which I think is absolutely wonderful. And I'm really glad, Alan, that you, you clarified when you said your head was about to explode, way? No, no, no, no, in a, in a whole positive way. I've, I've got neurons firing that I didn't know I had before, so it's brilliant. Wonderful. Thank you so much, both. Thank you. Thank you so much. If you're interested in learning more Level Three, Five, and Seven coaching and mentoring qualifications, please visit our website, www.coachingloop.co.uk, or email nick@coachingloop.co.uk or alan@, and we will get back to you.[upbeat music]